House health bill makes private medical insurance illegal

[Darin Jordan]

Yup... Just more Right Wing scare tactics... errrr.... except that this is from a LEFT WING, CZAR to the President, and brother of his Chief of Staff....

http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/complete-lives-system/

Just one of many ARE YOU KIDDING ME moments... that just happens to support all those "edited by the right wing" clips that are supposedly being distributed by right-wing media...

Freaking WAKE UP!

Better report me to [email protected]... apparently I'm now one of "The Mob"

[Bill-SOCAL]

Well, if you are going to reference an article, maybe it is worth reading. This is from the summary section:

Accepting the complete lives system for health care as a whole would be premature. We must first reduce waste and increase spending. The complete lives system explicitly rejects waste and corruption, such as multiple listing for transplantation. Although it may be applicable more generally, the complete lives system has been developed to justly allocate persistently scarce life-saving interventions. Hearts for transplant and influenza vaccines, unlike money, cannot be replaced or diverted to non-health goals; denying a heart to one person makes it available to another.

Then:

By contrast, the complete lives system combines four morally relevant principles: youngest-first, prognosis, lottery, and saving the most lives. In pandemic situations, it also allocates scarce interventions to people instrumental in realising these four principles. Importantly, it is not an algorithm, but a framework that expresses widely affirmed values: priority to the worst-off, maximising benefits, and treating people equally. To achieve a just allocation of scarce medical interventions, society must embrace the challenge of implementing a coherent multiprinciple framework rather than relying on simple principles or retreating to the status quo.

So even a precursory review of the article shows clearly that the author understands that this is not a practical system to implement now since certain core issues need to be addressed first. Beyond that it is clear that this is meant as a methodology for dealing with scarce resources in extreme situations. Like allocating a vaccine during a pandemic for instance. Or organs that are persistently scarce.

But using an incomplete understanding to distort it into something that it is not is not surprise either.

[domwilson]

On that page. I read the first paragraph. Then I looked at the pdf. Here is the following paragraph:

"Clearly, more needs to be
done to elucidate what specific
health care services are basic;
however, the overlap between
liberalism and communitarianism points to a way of
introducing the good back into medical ethics and
devising a principled way of distinguishing basic
from discretionary health care services. Perhaps using
this progress in political philosophy we can begin
to address Dan's challenge, begin to discuss the
goods and goals of medicine."

[Darin Jordan]

Like allocating a vaccine during a pandemic for instance. Or organs that are persistently scarce.

OH, you mean like the PANDEMIC that was just declared by the World Heath Org???

Don't give me this "incomplete understanding" BS.... We heard Obama himself say that he knows he won't get the whole package right away...

These Czars have been writing this stuff for YEARS... this wasn't just pulled out of their back-sides recently.... Sorry Dude... but it's walks like a duck...

Just HOW much of this stuff are you guys going to defend?? It's amazing how all of this just keeps getting "explained" away... "oh, that was just a poor choice of words"... "that's not what the REALLY mean"... etc...

Seems to be a pretty unified message, from the TOP down... almost, as if there was a plan?!?... Hmmmmmm....

And now, we not only have Chicago politicians and Chicago style politics, but do you REALLY think it's a coincidence that now the WHITE HOUSE itself, via Robert Gibbs and others, are using the term MOB??? Seriously?

I keep hearing how the Republican's don't have any answers, only say "NO"... REALLY??? I've heard of at least two alternative bills that exist, but that the leadership of the House and Senate won't allow to be heard, JUST like they are doing with the bill, signed by over 300 in Congress, to have the Federal Reserve audited...

When you are ready to have serious discussion, that puts ALL the ideas on the table, let me know...

[AndyKunz]

All my family came here legally. I have many friends who came here legally. Do you know how much it costs to become a US Citizen? Why should these people be so heavily scrutinized, while others who can't even speak the language can sneak in a back door and get all kinds of free benefits?!?!? That's a horrible injustice.

If the government wants to raise money, all they need to do is charge the illegals the same $20K it costs to come in legally.

Andy

[Bill-SOCAL]

OK, I give up. Obama wants to kill your granny. Somehow Cigna doing the same thig is OK with you because they make money doing it.

[Darin Jordan]

OK, I give up. Obama wants to kill your granny. Somehow Cigna doing the same thig is OK with you because they make money doing it.

You're starting to sound like Keith Oberman... and YES, I do, from time to time (like last night) attempt to sit through his drivel to hear what he has to actually say... Did the same with Rachel Maddow (sp?) last night...

In the middle here somewhere, which is where I live... there are REAL problems with what Obama is proposing... Just like there are REAL problems with what we have currently...

Just because he's "Obama", the first Black President, and all that... doesn't mean he has the one and only and the best solutions...

It also doesn't guarantee that he's squeaky clean and operating above board... I think it's immensely clear that this is NOT the case... They are politicians, playing political games, just like has always been done... So this "hero worship" that the Left has with this guy is really a little disconcerting...

And characterizing ALL of those of us who are very much opposed to this form of "reform" as "The Mob" (termed BY the WH...) or as an "Angry Mob", or as being paid off as an "organized angry mob", is a typical tactic used by the DNC to try to win their cause... However, if one actually looks at the BIG picture... then where is their equal characterization of Code Pink, the ACLU, ACORN, or the two Black Panther dudes hanging outside the polling place holding BATONS!????

Give me a break!

[Bill-SOCAL]

The trouble is you perceive yourself as being in the middle and you are very clearly not.

For instance, your open and clear opposition and disapproval of Obama puts you in a distinct minority. Even the latest Gallup poll, a right leaning polling group, shows a 62% approval rating.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117355/obama-approval-rating-stable-polarized.aspx

Approval for his health care reform is a bit closer, but those opposed are still the minority.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/june_2009/50_favor_obama_health_reform_plan_45_oppose_it

You denigrate Olberman and Maddow while praising Limbaugh (who compared Obama to Hitler yesterday) and Beck (who "joked" about poisoning the Speaker of the House).

Then you try to paint yourself as the Man in the Middle as a means of justifying your clearly right leaning opinions.

I am under no delusions that Obama is the Messiah or anything like that. But I also make no bones about the fact that I like his ideas better than those coming from the right.

As far as the "mobs" go, you obviously feel this is an incorrect assessment. Yet last night in Tampa one such mob openly admitted to being incited by Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

[Steven Vaccaro]

OK, I give up. Obama wants to kill your granny. Somehow Cigna doing the same thig is OK with you because they make money doing it.

Remove benefits to Granny an Grandpa that put in 40 years of taxes into the system so the ILLEGALS can get the Health care they need. Gee that sounds real fair?

[domwilson]

Deja Vu....early 90's... http://www.princeton.edu/~starr/20starr.html

[Darin Jordan]

The trouble is you perceive yourself as being in the middle and you are very clearly not.

For instance, your open and clear opposition and disapproval of Obama puts you in a distinct minority. Even the latest Gallup poll, a right leaning polling group, shows a 62% approval rating.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117355/obama-approval-rating-stable-polarized.aspx

Approval for his health care reform is a bit closer, but those opposed are still the minority.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/june_2009/50_favor_obama_health_reform_plan_45_oppose_it

While his "approval rating" is 62%, what the hell does that tell us??? People LIKE the guy... However, read the polls on what they think of his policies... it's a different story.

You denigrate Olberman and Maddow while praising Limbaugh (who compared Obama to Hitler yesterday) and Beck (who "joked" about poisoning the Speaker of the House).

WHEN did I "praise" any of these guys??? You're making stuff up now...

As far as the "mobs" go, you obviously feel this is an incorrect assessment. Yet last night in Tampa one such mob openly admitted to being incited by Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

I'm sure they did... as reported very honestly and openly by Olberman and Maddow I'm sure!!

[Steven Vaccaro]

As far as the "mobs" go, you obviously feel this is an incorrect assessment. Yet last night in Tampa one such mob openly admitted to being incited by Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

You find it wrong that these guys are trying to motivate people to fight a cause? Isnt Obama doing the same by motivating US citizens to RAT on their neighbors?

[domwilson]

On the black panther part...Taken from their site: http://www.blackpanther.org/legacytwo.htm

Instead of Kool-aid, I'm going to say, Don't eat the media's mayo, it's bad.


"THE LAST CHAPTER


During that time, Brown ran for Oakland public office again, this time garnering more than 44% of the vote along with the support of every labor union in the area. At the next city election, the Party supported and virtually installed Lionel Wilson as mayor of Oakland, the first black to hold that post in the 100 year history of the city. In the meantime, it further solidified its base by fighting for and obtaining funds to build 300 new, replacement housing units for poor people displaced by a local freeway; by entering into a working partnership with certain developers to build up the dilapidated downtown city center in order to provide 10,000 new jobs for Oakland's poor and unemployed. At the same time, a permanent primary school was instituted, which was highly lauded by the California legislature, among others. On Huey's return from exile, then, in 1977, the Black Panther Party was alive and well in Oakland, California, maintaining a strong constituency base in the black and working communities, and prepared to move forward to carry out its primary goal to make Oakland a base for revolution in America.

Soon after Newton's return to Oakland, in July of 1977, however, a combination of the continued, albeit more subtle and sophisticated, activities of the FBI (despite J. Edgar Hoover's death in 1972) and internal stress and conflict came to erode the Black Panther Party. By the end of the decade, it had come to a slow and unheralded demise."

[Darin Jordan]

You find it wrong that these guys are trying to motivate people to fight a cause?

Apparently it's only wrong when the groups aren't receiving BILLIONS of $$$ from the US-Government (i.e.: the TAX PAYERS) to do it, like ACORN, the ACLU, Code Pink, Planned Parenthood, etc...

[domwilson]

You find it wrong that these guys are trying to motivate people to fight a cause? Isnt Obama doing the same by motivating US citizens to RAT on their neighbors?

Nothing wrong with fighting. Maybe a better solution will arise from all this chaos.

I believe it was the other guy who started all this "RAT out your neighbor" comedy.

Taken from a page out of McCarthism, repackaged, and made in the SS, I mean Homeland Security.