Calling all gun guru's

[Diegoboy]

Many many years ago I bought a FEG PA63 9x18 Makarov. The previous year, we had gone camping and set up camp in a blackberry patch. that night our camp was visited by a black bear. There was no incident, but for the following year I wanted protection, so I bought the PA63. I was told it wouldn't stop a bear, just piss it off. I didn't care it made ME feel safer. That year and years to follow, there were no bear visits so I gave the gun to a close friend's father. Many years went by and his father passed away. I was offered the gun back, so I wanted to get the "feel" for a gun again. I went to a shooting range where I could rent a gun to fire. I picked out one a random. It was a Walther PK380. It performed very well. So now to the question:

Keep the PA63
pa63novak1.jpg

or Sell the PA63 to get a PK380?
2-WAWAP40002FC.jpg

Thanks

[desmobob]

You only need a small caliber handgun to survive a bear attack... even a .22 will do the job. All you have to do is shoot one of the other people in your camping party in the knee, then run like hell. ;-)

I have a pile of handguns in a very wide range of calibers. I have an East German Makarov 9x18 and a Russian Makarov in .380. They're both fun guns but if I was to have only one gun "to make me feel safe," it would be a minimum of 9mm Parabellum caliber.

9mm offers good availability of a variety of ammo types and is probably more economical to shoot than the 9x18 Mak or .380ACP. One of my favorite handguns is a CZ-75 in 9mm. I have a .22LR conversion kit for it so I can use it for plinking and cheap target shooting.

Another favorite is a design that had its 100th birthday last year, the Colt 1911 in .45ACP.

Beware, buying a handgun is like buying a model boat. You probably won't be able to stop at just one!

Take it easy,
desmobob

[detox]

I would purchase a S&W 686 double action .357 revolver with 4" barrel. Revolvers do not jam.

[m4a1usr]

The Makorav 9x18 is "technically" a more powerfull round then the .380. While the military load is fine for target shooting, you should look for a "defensive" load for personal carry. That can be for "bad guys" or bears. Doesnt matter. You get more velocity with a similar mass projectile so it translates to better energy transfer into your target. Since you are only asking about those 2 weapons I wont offer my opinion on whats a better defensive weapon for protection. I was an FFL for more then a decade back in the 90's. You name it. I have owned it. I dont care if its class 3 or normal a everyday plinker. Guns were my life during a certain phase and my business for an excuse to learn all that I needed to.

You want any sincere advice concerning ammo or weapons contact me Danny. I can help you out.

John

[Diegoboy]

You only need a small caliber handgun to survive a bear attack... even a .22 will do the job. All you have to do is shoot one of the other people in your camping party in the knee, then run like hell. ;-)

That's funny!!

Since you are only asking about those 2 weapons I wont offer my opinion on whats a better defensive weapon for protection.

What would be your recommendation?

[egneg]

Danny the Bear will turn and run after it sees this gun...

Big Gun.jpg

[Diegoboy]

Chuck, after the recoil from that beast, I may just want the bear to maul me. lol

[desmobob]

I was an FFL for more then a decade back in the 90's.

+1

The business, the licensing, and the prices sure have changed in twenty years!

Take it easy,
desmobob

[hazegry]

why sell what works if you want concealed carry get a Springfield arms sub compact XD-40. out of the two you have I like the PK380 better

[m4a1usr]

What would be your recommendation?

Sorry I havent returned to this thread earlier Danny. My recomendation for a "woods" type carry is a decent wheel gun. Not that I object to semi autos but a wheel gun is one of the most dependable firearms made. Since your region doesnt have Grizz, Browns or Polar bears anything 357 and above will stop a 300 to 450 lb blackie. And most encounters with bears are fleeting for the most part. The loud report alone from any caliber firearm should scare the critter away. When I used to hunt Elk or Bear my prefered carry was a 44 mag Dan wesson. If you want to stick with what you have look at some decent defensive loads made for that caliber. Just make sure they load reliably and wont stress the frame.

John

[ron1950]

i dont know about your makarov...but with my 380..u would have to aim at the bears ass the hit his head.....its not real accurate over 40 feet or so lol

[Meniscus]

Danny, I never realized you were the gun type, even as well as we know each other. Here's a little background and my perspective: As someone that hunts very close to you and someone that sees black bear in excess of 300-400 lbs every 3rd outing, you are best off with a revolver. Any 357 should be fine, as long as you keep calm. Most of the time, you will only view one of these bears at a fleeting glance since they shy away from humans. However, those that are more accustomed to human interaction may be more curious. In fact, black bears account for more injuries and fatalities than any other bear. In Dec. of 2010, right after the big snow storm, I was out bow hunting in Chesapeake and had only brought a cushion to sit on the ground. After an hour or so and watching several smaller deer pass by me, I smelled the unmistakable odor. After about 5 minutes, this black bear weighing over 500 lbs (not an exaggeration) mosied out of the woods. It never saw me and I never moved a muscle. When it walked by, it was less than 15 yards away. So what's the point? The point is, here are the steps for engaging a black bear:

1. STAY CALM!!! Your fear could trigger it to come after you.
2. Don't move. The bear may not even be interested in you. DO NOT RUN AWAY!
3. Carry a whistle and use it if the bear approaches you. The sharp, shrill sound will often cause them to turn away and move away from you.
4. If you know you're going to be in an area with bears, carry bear spray with you. This can be found at most sporting goods stores that cater to hiking, hunting, etc. The spray is actually very similar to Wasp and Hornet killer which shoots out 25-30 ft. Aim for the eyes! In fact, the wasp and hornet spray works as well, but I don't know what that does to the bear's eye's, but it contains the same ingredients to include a neuro-toxin.

5. If you must engage a bear with weapon, whether it is a sidearm or something else, DO NOT AIM FOR THE HEAD! The head on a bear is very boney and the likeliness of missing in that moment or a non-fatal shot (saving you) is highly unlikely. AIM FOR CENTER MASS! The appropriate place is a little higher between the front shoulders. Even if the shot is low, it injures one of his mobility legs and allows you more time for follow-up shots (aimed of course, not just clicking off rounds) and to get away. Just remember, the hide on a black bear is not that different than a deer (light game) and as long as you are aiming between his shoulders, he's going to slow down and likely turn away and run.

So, with all this being said, I don't hunt bear and don't find the need to. They are so far and few between that there are not very many encounters in this area, that is of course unless you're hunting near where I am!

Final thought for what it's worth: Of all bear attacks, of those you used bear spray, the survival percentage is over 95% (most say 99%, but I'm taking a grain of salt). Of all bear attacks where a weapon is used or discharged, it causes the bear to become very agitated and aggressive. Consequently, the survival percentage with a weapon discharge goes down to 50%. Of those folks who discharge the weapon, most of them were aiming at the bear's head and not is heart/shoullders.

So, now you know the background what to do and what not to do. You also know how to deter and/or risk confrontation decreases.

Back to the gun choice, I like the Taurus Judge for hands-down winner for versatility, but it doesn't really warrant concealed-carry very easily. The Judge can shoot either 3" long 4100 shotgun shells as well as 38 special if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise, choose a revovler in a concealed format. Also buy home defense rounds for whatever you get.

I hope this helps.

[Fluid]

Along with some good info, there are things in the above post which are simply wrong or misleading. I lived in Alaska for 27 years, hunted and shot black and brown bear, and saw hundreds while in the bush. I also spent a lot of time with state and Federal game officers hunting, shooting, drinking and talking about the bush experience including bears. I wrote for several national firearms magazines and was trusted by their editors to know what I wrote about. I have a lot of experience in other words and know BS when I hear it. I've heard it all.

In spite of all that, the post above is very very good when it suggests that pepper spray is a better choice than a gun in most cases. According to US Park Service, the US Fish and Wildlife Service et. al. studies, pepper spray is at least 92% effective in halting bad behavior in Alaskan bears - black, brown and polar varieties. Firearms....not so much.

Assuming you want to carry a firearm, it is only good if you have it handy. Stuck in your pack when a bear arrives it is useless. So is the shotgun you left leaning against the tree 30 feet away when the bear appears. Better to have a club in your hand than a gun you cannot use. If you are serious about a firearm for bear defence, make sure it is of a type you will always have at hand when in bear country. You may run into one at any time, not just in camp at night.

No handgun is very good defence as they lack the power of most rifles. Choose one which you can hit with - missing with a .44 Magnum is a waste of time, better to hit with a 9mm. And whatever you do DO NOT buy 'home defense' ammunition. That stuff is designed to kill people without going through walls and lacks the penetration needed to deter most bears. Penetration is lacking with most handguns anyway, don't handicap yourself with the wrong ammo. Buy the heaviest bullet available in that cartridge - if available, game hunting ammo with solid or soft point bullets is probably best.

But better still is pepper spray. Buy several cans and have them handy on your person - like a firearm, if you can't reach it in time you may as well not have it at all.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

http://www.adn.com/2012/03/08/v-printer/2359636/gun-is-no-insurance-policy-in.html

[Meniscus]

Jay, those are all valid points and in retrospect, the ammo choice was poorly stated at best. In referencing the Judge, I just didn't want him to pickup something with a lot of pellets. Since I don't have the experience hunting bear, as stated above, I cannot weigh in on the penetration side of things. However, my concern, without calling him out, is the accuracy of the shots. Unless someone has experience shooting the heavier grained bullets, it is often a detriment in every respect. At the same time, much of the ammunition we see here is much lighter, more of target rounds than anything else. Much of the home defense ammo we see here has a higher FPS with better expansion for very close range.

Regardless, the point of my post was to deter engaging a bear with a firearm. Regrettably, I don't have the experience hunting bear to be fully cognizant of the interaction of different ammo. Meanwhile, we hear stories all the time about how many times one of these black bears was shot before it succumbed to it's wounds. Unfortunately, many of the inexperienced hunters are credited with as many as 40 shots to the head while the bear is chased by dogs.

Out of at least 50 bears I've come across in this area, I've never had one not be deterred by other methods, but then again, I am hyper aware and am very careful not to get in between a mother and the cubs. I'm known for staying put for an hour or two if I come across a cub in the path of my primary exit off of the property, even when it means it's pitch black when I'm coming out of the woods. It is important also to note that I'm not your typical hunter that doesn't stray more than 50 or 100 yards from the truck. I often travel several miles in both directions on foot just to get to a hunting location. The main reason for that is other hunters and much of the stupidity out there.

Thanks for weighing in and providing your perspective. Anyone that has the potential for encountering a bear, regardless of longitude, should be well aware of the risks, engagement tactics, and self-preservation methods one may employ. Your input is greatly appreciated.

[fpsphoto]

i know im way late on this one... but i got a marlin 45/70 at gander mountain a week ago. go check that out. Its a guide gun. Takes down elephants in a smaller than 30/30 lever action package. Bullet looks like a shotgun shell wrapped in metal.. Or if you really wanna have some fun buy a .22 and aim for his balls or even test your skills at his peepers