If thine Data offends thee, throw it out....

[Darin Jordan]

I do not see it as a left or right even though many of you want to take that cheap approach. Republican or Dems...it has been going on for some time.

You are missing the point here... The DATA itself is completely and utterly in question as to it's accuracy... In fact... the data... ALL of it, shows that the "Global Warming" crowd is flat out wrong... This part IS a left/right issue... because it's the nutjobs extremists on the LEFT that are pushing this crap down our throats and pushing for all the cap and tax BS that's being forced down our throats...

Come on...don't down the fact that we are really harming our earth by the crap we are doing.

Again... there is NO DOUBT that we are having an impact... but the DEGREE to which this is happening is highly questionable... And when the current powers that be choose to listen to only ONE set of science, and it happens to be science in which selected data was used, rather than ALL the data, that clearly paints a pre-determined picture... well... I'd say there is some politics involved...

[Bill-SOCAL]

That must be a difference between us engineers and you scientists. Engineers hold onto all the data (often long after the project is ancient history) because, if there's ever a problem, there might be data in it that gives a clue as to what went wrong.

I take it from your comment that throwing away inconvenient data is OK as long as you have massaged data available to prove how the engineers must be wrong...

You can take from my comment that you thinking that they threw away inconvenient data means you truly do not understand the scientific method and how research is conducted. In your ignorance of that you find what you think is proof that they are "up to something". Keep in mind that not understanding something does not mean it is wrong.

And your statement that there is a difference between scientists and engineers is more true than you know.

[Diegoboy]

We arrogant humans think we have all the answers, we think we know something about everything. We don't know squat about our planet. the time we've been on it is just a mere blink of an eye on the global stage. any affect we may have global temps won't be seen in our great great great grandchildrens lifetime.
Earths own magnetic field is weakening, (FACT)
It's the start of a polarity reversal, (Speculation)
It's a cycle that naturally occurs every 800 million years or so, (speculation)

Will our great great great grandchildren be alive to see it full cycle? I don't think so. To us, we as people have been here a LONG time, when in fact we've been here only milliseconds in a global scene.
Think of mankind as fleas on your dog. Your dog may live 15 years, but his fleas will die in 2 months of natural causes. That flea thought it lived a long time as it said goodbye I'm sure, but the dog saw it as only a brief time in it's much longer life.

Now keep in mind I understand that the flea will reproduce and the dog will have "fleas" longer than the 2 months, but it's just an analogy for you.

[Bill-SOCAL]

You are missing the point here... The DATA itself is completely and utterly in question as to it's accuracy... In fact... the data... ALL of it, shows that the "Global Warming" crowd is flat out wrong....

Yep, all wrong. You were too smart for them and their fraud. Although it is sort of interesting how all these nasty libberul eggheads in their ivory towers have been able to convince the glaciers, ice caps, and sea level to go along with their fraud. They really are good! Which makes it all the more interesting that you were able to see through them.

[domwilson]

There may be politics involved but I don't think it is a left or right thing. It's all about who has the most to gain. Choose your side, because people are making money on both. As I recall, wasn't it the big oil companies that originally started denying climate change? Both parties benefit from their deep pockets. Both parties have been addressing the issue. There are people from both parties concerned about this. Does everything break down to Reps vs. the Dems.?

[Darin Jordan]

Yep, all wrong. You were too smart for them and their fraud. Although it is sort of interesting how all these nasty libberul eggheads in their ivory towers have been able to convince the glaciers, ice caps, and sea level to go along with their fraud. They really are good! Which makes it all the more interesting that you were able to see through them.

Yah.... and even if this IS happening to the extent to which they say it is, which is still in question, the amount of this that we can do ANYTHING about, or that is attributable to human behaviour is seriously in question.

It was also recently shown that the "scientists" who were reporting glaciers retreating, etc., were also "throwing out" (must be some new scientific method that none of us learned in school...) data relating the the number of glaciers in OTHER parts of the world that were GROWING...

Again, I haven't heard ANYONE here say that climate change was NOT happening... you don't need ANY education at all to know that change is going to happen.... the question concerns the "science" being used to "prove" that humans are the cause.

I'm with Diegoboy... people that believe this kind of stuff don't have a relative idea of just how insignificant humans are in the scheme of the universe, or the Earth...

[domwilson]

We arrogant humans think we have all the answers, we think we know something about everything. We don't know squat about our planet. the time we've been on it is just a mere blink of an eye on the global stage. any affect we may have global temps won't be seen in our great great great grandchildrens lifetime.
Earths own magnetic field is weakening, (FACT)
It's the start of a polarity reversal, (Speculation)
It's a cycle that naturally occurs every 800 million years or so, (speculation)

Will our great great great grandchildren be alive to see it full cycle? I don't think so. To us, we as people have been here a LONG time, when in fact we've been here only milliseconds in a global scene.
Think of mankind as fleas on your dog. Your dog may live 15 years, but his fleas will die in 2 months of natural causes. That flea thought it lived a long time as it said goodbye I'm sure, but the dog saw it as only a brief time in it's much longer life.

Now keep in mind I understand that the flea will reproduce and the dog will have "fleas" longer than the 2 months, but it's just an analogy for you.

Jesse would know more about the earth's magnetic fields as he is a geologist. But I think the change varies with an average of 250,000 years or so give or take a day or two. But I think the last one occurred almost 800,000 years ago. You should have been there. My dinosaur migrated north.

[Diegoboy]

[Ub Hauled]

I do believe in climate change for sure, it has been going on since long before we came on the scene.

Changes happen, specially in nature, that's a given. One thing I strongly agree with you is that we have a heavy hand in the CO2 with the deforestation deal. But I cannot sit here and hear you saying that bad things cannot be done in 100 or so years... man is dumping huge amounts of stuff that does not belong there and since we are essentially live in a bowl, this stuff will saturate the atmosphere and create adverse things to us... what kind things you say? It is impossible to predict with our close to nil knowledge of nature. Oh? you think we know about nature? Then why did we create all that stuff that is banned now (DDT, CFC, etc)? Is it possible that what we are dumping in the air is causing advert effects? YES of course!

You are missing the point here... The DATA itself is completely and utterly in question as to it's accuracy... In fact... the data... ALL of it, shows that the "Global Warming" crowd is flat out wrong... This part IS a left/right issue... because it's the nutjobs extremists on the LEFT that are pushing this crap down our throats and pushing for all the cap and tax BS that's being forced down our throats...
Again... there is NO DOUBT that we are having an impact... but the DEGREE to which this is happening is highly questionable... And when the current powers that be choose to listen to only ONE set of science, and it happens to be science in which selected data was used, rather than ALL the data, that clearly paints a pre-determined picture... well... I'd say there is some politics involved...

Darin, I believe you are an intelligent guy and always give your answers in the forum great deal of thought... I cannot believe that you think that we are NOT the main reason of the climate disparities that are happening these days and that this is all a political game. Of course there are politics involved but not in the part of how much we affect this "rock" but who is going to win the tug of war and make more money in this whole time of indecision. Anyone can see and feel what is going on with the climate and some can tell what is going on in the air (respiratory problems). There are natural changes going on, of course, but these would normally occur in a much longer amount of time that in a humans life span.

We arrogant humans think we have all the answers, we think we know something about everything. We don't know squat about our planet. the time we've been on it is just a mere blink of an eye on the global stage. any affect we may have global temps won't be seen in our great great great grandchildrens lifetime.
Earths own magnetic field is weakening, (FACT)
It's the start of a polarity reversal, (Speculation)
It's a cycle that naturally occurs every 800 million years or so, (speculation)

Will our great great great grandchildren be alive to see it full cycle? I don't think so. To us, we as people have been here a LONG time, when in fact we've been here only milliseconds in a global scene.
Think of mankind as fleas on your dog. Your dog may live 15 years, but his fleas will die in 2 months of natural causes. That flea thought it lived a long time as it said goodbye I'm sure, but the dog saw it as only a brief time in it's much longer life.

Now keep in mind I understand that the flea will reproduce and the dog will have "fleas" longer than the 2 months, but it's just an analogy for you.

Danny, we are very arrogant, for all sorts of reasons. Humans are a very greedy and until we grow up as a race, things will not change.

About your analogy, yes, we are fleas on a dog and yes we'll die in 2 months... don't you think that we would die much quicker if we poison ourselves? That's what we are doing right now.

[Darin Jordan]

There are natural changes going on, of course, but these would normally occur in a much longer amount of time that in a humans life span.

But that's NOT true... The volcano erruption example is a perfect example of what we are talking about here....

YES, we are having an effect... we should change how we use plastics... we should come up with better fuels and power... we should find more ways to reuse our resources... But I don't believe that we are having this dramatic effect on global temperature anymore than I believe we, as a population, are able to slow or speed up the rotation of the Earth. This is a cyclical system that has undergone many, many periods of warming and cooling. In the 70's, they were absolutely convinced we were heading into an ice age... now they are telling us we are heading the other way??? REALLY? Even though the evidence actually shows that the temps have gone up VERY slowly, and not in the "hockey-stick" shaped graph that Gore wants us to believe???

WHAT other motivation would they have to do this? Well... since cap and tax and other such "green" measures are involved, I'd say it HAS to be politically motivated...

I want to see us be responsible and do the right thing, but this can NOT be done with the hysteria that is being generated today...

[domwilson]

Man is greedy. He takes more than he needs.
Man is lazy. He creates tools so he can do more with less effort.
Man is arrogant. He believes that he can do no wrong and that all mistakes can be fixed. And the ones he cannot fix, he finds a reason that it's not his fault.

We may be fleas on this dog of a planet. But even fleas carry disease. Are we the cause of climate change? I don't know if anyone here has a solid answer. Are we the cause of man's problems? More often than not. We constantly look for reasons to not accept responsibility and to place blame. At one point I even heard that cattle were causing climate change. Let's look at the issue objectively and figure out a way to work together or individually to remedy it. It is unrealistic to think that the millions of tons of pollutants we dump in our atmosphere won't hurt this planet. Have we forgotten the big hole in the ozone that we caused? Or the devastation that the Exxon Valdez caused? Or the burning of the Oil fields that Saddam ordered. I'm sure all this is accumulative. Incidentally, we dump a lot more types of pollutants in our atmosphere than naturally occurring events. Chemicals that don't break down or that break down into lethal substances. A cup of Acid rain for anyone?

[domwilson]

But that's NOT true... The volcano erruption example is a perfect example of what we are talking about here....

YES, we are having an effect... we should change how we use plastics... we should come up with better fuels and power... we should find more ways to reuse our resources... But I don't believe that we are having this dramatic effect on global temperature anymore than I believe we, as a population, are able to slow or speed up the rotation of the Earth. This is a cyclical system that has undergone many, many periods of warming and cooling. In the 70's, they were absolutely convinced we were heading into an ice age... now they are telling us we are heading the other way??? REALLY? Even though the evidence actually shows that the temps have gone up VERY slowly, and not in the "hockey-stick" shaped graph that Gore wants us to believe???

WHAT other motivation would they have to do this? Well... since cap and tax and other such "green" measures are involved, I'd say it HAS to be politically motivated...

I want to see us be responsible and do the right thing, but this can NOT be done with the hysteria that is being generated today...

You are correct that this is cyclical. However, many scientists agree that the cycle has been accelerated because of the pollutants that we dump into the atmosphere. Want to see proof? Go to Los Angeles in the summer. Take a look across the horizon. Is the sky supposed to be brown?

[Ub Hauled]

But that's NOT true... The volcano erruption example is a perfect example of what we are talking about here....
YES, we are having an effect... we should change how we use plastics... we should come up with better fuels and power... we should find more ways to reuse our resources... But I don't believe that we are having this dramatic effect on global temperature anymore than I believe we, as a population, are able to slow or speed up the rotation of the Earth. This is a cyclical system that has undergone many, many periods of warming and cooling. In the 70's, they were absolutely convinced we were heading into an ice age... now they are telling us we are heading the other way??? REALLY? Even though the evidence actually shows that the temps have gone up VERY slowly, and not in the "hockey-stick" shaped graph that Gore wants us to believe???
WHAT other motivation would they have to do this? Well... since cap and tax and other such "green" measures are involved, I'd say it HAS to be politically motivated...
I want to see us be responsible and do the right thing, but this can NOT be done with the hysteria that is being generated today...

I guess I should have been more specific, obviously with a catastrophe like a volcano blowing up, change is much more immediate, I was referring to the more regular and subtle changes. A big volcano erupting is less common then the subtle day to day change.

The political game is exactly what I was referring to, our motivations are all wrong! We should not change our attitude towards our planet because some half wit politician decided he's going to capitalize on going green and got some scientist on board, we need to change because our lifelike will be or already is in jeopardy. I read things the scientists write but I take it with a grain of salt... but I do not doubt what I see and feel. Something does not feel right about us taking, taking, taking and not giving back to the planet. I am glad you agree that we HAVE to change our way of using and living, that's what will win or loose our battle.

[Ub Hauled]

You are correct that this is cyclical. However, many scientists agree that the cycle has been accelerated because of the pollutants that we dump into the atmosphere. Want to see proof? Go to Los Angeles in the summer. Take a look across the horizon. Is the sky supposed to be brown?

That's what I am trying to convey... BTW, it's year 'round... smog is a way of life here... it's almost a celebrity (for the wrong reasons), it get mentioned almost everyday on the news.

[Bill-SOCAL]

But that's NOT true... The volcano erruption example is a perfect example of what we are talking about here....

You are right, but not how you think. The eruption of Pinatubo did result in a short term drop in global temperatures, but it has not changed the overall trend. It also provided valuable data that was used to validate several important climate modeling algorithms.

Here are a few references worth a look at:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1992GeoRL..19..215H

From that one:

The simulations indicate that Pinatubo occurred too late in the year to prevent 1991 from becoming one of the warmest years in instrumental records,

http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/EGECPinatubo.pdf

From this source:

The climatic effects included global cooling of about
0.3 °C for about 2 years. The cooling was particularly
strong over Northern Hemisphere continents in the summer
of 1992, with cooling more than 3 °C in the northern
US and southern Canada. The cooling was temporary and
1998 was the warmest year in the past 1000 years. This
cooling was predicted by climate models, which are also
used for predicting global warming from anthropogenic
greenhouse gases, thus giving strength to the global warming
predictions.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-02/rtsu-pvr021502.php

Most significant, the scientist said, Pinatubo helped validate computer-generated climate models that demonstrate human-caused global warming.