Question for Dupli-Color Paint Users...

[Darin Jordan]

This past weekend, I spent a good deal of time prepping and painting two hulls... one my wooden 32" WildThing P-Mono, and the other my Glass Raptor Marine P-Spec Hydro.

On both of these hulls, I prepped them carefully and primed them with Dupli-Color primer. I then did something I don't normally do. I used some Dupli-Color Primer Sealer on them. This is suppose to keep the paint from "absorbing" into the primer, and also supposed to promote gloss.

It says on the can that "no sanding is required" between this coat and the final paint coat, so once the sealer was dried, I proceeded to put on a couple of light coats of Dupli-Color Bright White paint.

I let the color coats dry for 24-hours. Everything looked GREAT.

I took the P-Mono hull upstairs and proceeded to tape it off so I could add the color to the deck. I misplaced a piece of masking tape... the REALLY expensive professional vinyl type of striping tape that I use on all my boats... and when I gently pulled it off... it gently pulled ALL of the paint under it right off! :cursing:

Pissed off, I pulled all the tape off the boat with similiar results.

It appears that the paint didn't adhere to the sealer, because that is the layer that became fully exposed.

I have since stripped the boat back down to bare wood and am starting over.


I'm thinking that I should maybe have sanded a light coat (400-grit) over the sealer before painting?? Should I forgo the sealer next time?

I'm VERY tired of having to redo paintjobs like this, after spending SOOOO much time and energy getting things right the first time, so if anyone has any advice that would help, I'm all ears (errrr.... or "eyes", in the case of forum text.... :cool2: )

On the P-Spec Hydro, I've gone through the same process, but I had already put two coats of Dupli-Color Clear Topcoat on it, and have it just about ready for testing. If the paint starts coming off of it as well, I'll strip the tub down and start over with that as well, but not until after the 2009 NAMBA Nats in July. Hopefully by then I'll have this process figured out so I can ensure it'll work the first time around.

[jeff180]

You should always wet sand the primer before spraying your color. 400 grit is just fine. I would not use that sealer again.

[Flying Scotsman]

Darin, what was the time between the prime coat and the sealer and the colour coats. For me, prime coat, leave it for a day...wet sand, then top coats of lacquer paint after flash time and no clear.

Douggie

[egneg]

This past weekend, I spent a good deal of time prepping and painting two hulls... one my wooden 32" WildThing P-Mono, and the other my Glass Raptor Marine P-Spec Hydro.

On both of these hulls, I prepped them carefully and primed them with Dupli-Color primer. I then did something I don't normally do. I used some Dupli-Color Primer Sealer on them. This is suppose to keep the paint from "absorbing" into the primer, and also supposed to promote gloss.

It says on the can that "no sanding is required" between this coat and the final paint coat, so once the sealer was dried, I proceeded to put on a couple of light coats of Dupli-Color Bright White paint.

I let the color coats dry for 24-hours. Everything looked GREAT.

I took the P-Mono hull upstairs and proceeded to tape it off so I could add the color to the deck. I misplaced a piece of masking tape... the REALLY expensive professional vinyl type of striping tape that I use on all my boats... and when I gently pulled it off... it gently pulled ALL of the paint under it right off! :cursing:

Pissed off, I pulled all the tape off the boat with similiar results.

It appears that the paint didn't adhere to the sealer, because that is the layer that became fully exposed.

I have since stripped the boat back down to bare wood and am starting over.


I'm thinking that I should maybe have sanded a light coat (400-grit) over the sealer before painting?? Should I forgo the sealer next time?

I'm VERY tired of having to redo paintjobs like this, after spending SOOOO much time and energy getting things right the first time, so if anyone has any advice that would help, I'm all ears (errrr.... or "eyes", in the case of forum text.... :cool2: )

On the P-Spec Hydro, I've gone through the same process, but I had already put two coats of Dupli-Color Clear Topcoat on it, and have it just about ready for testing. If the paint starts coming off of it as well, I'll strip the tub down and start over with that as well, but not until after the 2009 NAMBA Nats in July. Hopefully by then I'll have this process figured out so I can ensure it'll work the first time around.

Here is the first clue to your problem. There are only 2 ways that paint bonds chemical and physical. If each layer doesn't reactivate the lower layer for a chemical bond you need scratch to create a physical bond. Unless I am doing a couple of wet coats of the same color as soon as the paint flashes I like to give the paint some time to cure and give it scratch just to be sure I have a good bond between layers. Watch your overspray and use a good cleaner/degreaser and tack cloth (air it out for a couple of hours first) before every layer.

[Flying Scotsman]

Folks, flash time is really important. See other painting threads on this topic

Douggie

[RandyatBBY]

Call a teck guy at dupla color and see what he says!

[Darin Jordan]

OK... so if the can says let dry 10-minutes between coats... and it's "dry to the touch in 30-minutes"... Which one is considered the "Flash Time"??

I would think it would be better to wait until the primer were COMPLETELY dry (24-hours or ???) to let all the solvents out before sealing it down with a coat of color, right?

I'm thinking that maybe letting the primer completely dry, then doing the 400 wet-sand, wipe it down, degrease, tac-cloth, then color paint, might be what I have to try next...

Really want to figure this out because I've had too many of the paint-jobs fail on me lately...

Thanks for the info so far...

[Flying Scotsman]

Randy, rattle cans are just that. I doubt many words of wisdom from the paint manufacturer...how was the surface prepped...did you use all our products etc..etc.

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

Call a teck guy at dupla color and see what he says!


BS on that... The last time I did that with Krylon... they said "Sure... you can paint regular Krylon over Fusion"....

Yah, RIGHT! :ThumbsDown01:

I'd rather talk to people who have actually painted with the stiff... :thumbup:

[Flying Scotsman]

OK... so if the can says let dry 10-minutes between coats... and it's "dry to the touch in 30-minutes"... Which one is considered the "Flash Time"??

I would think it would be better to wait until the primer were COMPLETELY dry (24-hours or ???) to let all the solvents out before sealing it down with a coat of color, right?

I'm thinking that maybe letting the primer completely dry, then doing the 400 wet-sand, wipe it down, degrease, tac-cloth, then color paint, might be what I have to try next...

Really want to figure this out because I've had too many of the paint-jobs fail on me lately...

Thanks for the info so far...

Darin, there is the problem, you are applying paint way after the flash time. Watch the paint and once it appears dry after looking wet, shoot the next colour coat. Always use the same manufacturer. Yes the primer must dry and be wet sanded

Douggie

[RandyatBBY]

Hear is a link to them.
http://www.dupli-color.com/index.html

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, there is the problem, you are applying paint way after the flash time. Watch the paint and once it appears dry after looking wet, shoot the next colour coat. Always use the same manufacturer. Yes the primer must dry and be wet sanded

Douggie

Sounds reasonable... I wonder how this applies to the sealer coat? I imagine it should be treated like "primer", and let to completely dry, then wetsand, wipe, tac, then start the colors??

[Flying Scotsman]

Darin, I have never heard of a sealer coat paint after a prime coat....pro painters?

Douggie

[egneg]

Darin you are correct about waiting between stages as to primer. color, and clear.

Forget the sealer. Flash time varies because of how heavy you lay down the paint, temperature, and humidity. As I have stated before shoot a test panel to perform a couple of tests as you go. As soon as you can drag your knuckle across the paint and it kinda squeaks without leaving any paint on your knuckle you are ready for the next coat - be careful as the paint is still very soft.

[Darin Jordan]

Guys... thanks. I'm prepping to go in again... we'll see what comes out the other side this time...

[sailr]

Primer 'sealer' takes a long time to cure. I always use primer 'surfacer'. That is the one that cooks off really fast. Regardless of what primer I use, I always give them at least 24 hours to dry before touching them. Then I wet sand lightly with 400 before applying the color coat(s). Another thing, I think the Dupli-color lacquer will attack the primer 'sealer', not sure but it won't effect the primer 'surfacer'.

Dupli color sells lacquer and enamel. There isn't as much color choice in the enamel but it seems to be a lot tougher and glosses out better than the lacauers.

I try to stay with lacquer based primer surfacer and follow with 'enamel' color coats. Enamel doesn't dry so fast and allows you to build up multiple coats and maintain a nice gloss. Lacquers can be a bear to do that with. I've also found the enamels stand up better to tape than the lacquers.

I know how frustrating it can be! Been there, done that. Of course the ultimate best way is a gun with some good DP 2-part primer and base/clear paint. Expensive and deadly without the right mask! The right gun is also a critical element.

I hope somebody comes up with the perfect rattle can solution one of these days!

[egneg]

Primer 'sealer' takes a long time to cure. I always use primer 'surfacer'. That is the one that cooks off really fast. Regardless of what primer I use, I always give them at least 24 hours to dry before touching them. Then I wet sand lightly with 400 before applying the color coat(s). Another thing, I think the Dupli-color lacquer will attack the primer 'sealer', not sure but it won't effect the primer 'surfacer'.

Dupli color sells lacquer and enamel. There isn't as much color choice in the enamel but it seems to be a lot tougher and glosses out better than the lacauers.

I try to stay with lacquer based primer surfacer and follow with 'enamel' color coats. Enamel doesn't dry so fast and allows you to build up multiple coats and maintain a nice gloss. Lacquers can be a bear to do that with. I've also found the enamels stand up better to tape than the lacquers.

I know how frustrating it can be! Been there, done that. Of course the ultimate best way is a gun with some good DP 2-part primer and base/clear paint. Expensive and deadly without the right mask! The right gun is also a critical element.

I hope somebody comes up with the perfect rattle can solution one of these days!

Paint is kinda funny that way - it does not attack the layer below but if it is of a different type or is put on to heavy it will delam or wrinkle the paint below as the different types shrink at different rates as they cure (again the test panel comes into play). When changing from one type or system to another a barrier coat is needed to prevent this.

[Flying Scotsman]

Chuck, on the button. Painting is a real skill and I wish I was better at it. I do admire the guys that have that atribute

Douggie

[egneg]

As far as Rattle cans go this is about the best stuff on the market.

http://www.alsacorp.com/killercans.htm

[sailr]

Wow! That is amazing stuff but $40 a can! And the clear is a 2-part system so it's a one use can. Amazing stuff though. Watched their videos. Of course they make it look soooo easy. I guarantee I can screw it up! :doh:


As far as Rattle cans go this is about the best stuff on the market.

http://www.alsacorp.com/killercans.htm

[CircusCircus]

Darin Ive been a painter in the Automotive collision industry for over 15yrs and I have never heard of spraying sealer over primer ( no reason to) unless you cut through in a bunch of spots with your primer.

Also if you let sealer sit too long before applying your base coat its will not bond to the sealer and some cases wrinkle. Skip the sealer theres no need.

Also stick with enamel based paints, Laquer is old technology and was faded out of the automotive industry back in the 80s, its only good use in RC is for Polycarbonate bodies used on Rc cars and trucks. LAQUER and ENAMEL dont MIX never use both on a paint job. You might get away with it if you spray real light coats, but over time paint job will wrinkle and crack on you.

[sailr]

I guess I missed that part. I thought Darin was just using a sealer/primer? ...not a primer and then a sealer?

As said before, I use primer/surfacer, not primer/sealer. I seem to have better results. Might just be luck though.

Certainly agree about the enamel vs. lacquer.


Darin Ive been a painter in the Automotive collision industry for over 15yrs and I have never heard of spraying sealer over primer ( no reason to) unless you cut through in a bunch of spots with your primer.

Also if you let sealer sit too long before applying your base coat its will not bond to the sealer and some cases wrinkle. Skip the sealer theres no need.

Also stick with enamel based paints, Laquer is old technology and was faded out of the automotive industry back in the 80s, its only good use in RC is for Polycarbonate bodies used on Rc cars and trucks. LAQUER and ENAMEL dont MIX never use both on a paint job. You might get away with it if you spray real light coats, but over time paint job will wrinkle and crack on you.

[detox]

I once used the Duplicolor primer, sealer, and lacquer paint. Paint would peel off when removing hatch tape. I removed that lousy paint with acetone and paper towels. I now use simple Krylon primer and paint (no more peeling). Krylon's Sun Yellow is a nice racy color.

[CornelP]

Just two more things to add: as CircusCircus noted, you do not mix, but you can seal with something as simple as Future (acrylic floor wax).
There are two methods for applying a thicker paint:
1/2 and 1/1: first layer - VERY thin , then IMMEDIATELY a full coat
1/1 and 1/1: two full coats, with flash time drying in between.
I use Duplicolor on a regular basis, but seal everything with acrylic clear (two components). This will hold everything in place and it is a very good sealer....
But probably the best advice would be: get an airbrush/compressor... the choice of paints is waaaaay bigger:laugh: