Rudder placement on Hydros & riggers?

[Diegoboy]

So where do you place your rudder & why.
Please designate Hydro and/or rigger.

The following OSE Store image shows the rudder on the right

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/prodimages/large__12_03_2008_20_49_solinger-hydro-fe-boat-hardware.JPG

[Darin Jordan]

Hydro Left... Rigger Right... Because they are FASTER that way...

[Hydromaniac]

Hydro Left... Rigger Right... Because they are FASTER that way...

Then why on full size hydros have I seen them on both sides and in the middle of the transome??

[Darin Jordan]

Then why on full size hydros have I seen them on both sides and in the middle of the transome??

Water doesn't scale... and either do hydrodynamics...

You don't see full-size boats running props 1/3rd the width if the transom either... ;)

[Jeff Wohlt]

Riggers are certainly different.

[Hydromaniac]

Water doesn't scale... and either do hydrodynamics...

You don't see full-size boats running props 1/3rd the width if the transom either... ;)

You avoided the question with self inflated expertise on hydrodynamics and little boat versus big boat jargin, point is I think it comes down to hull design and driving style, be it big or little. It has been proven to work equally well on both sides of the transome.

[Darin Jordan]

You avoided the question with self inflated expertise on hydrodynamics and little boat versus big boat jargin, point is I think it comes down to hull design and driving style, be it big or little. It has been proven to work equally well on both sides of the transome.


Sheesh... Go attack someone who cares... If you want to put your rudder on the right... put it on the right. I could really give a rip... I answered the pole question, and didn't claim any "expertise".... In fact... I can't say specifically why riggers seem to work better with the rudder on the right. They typically just do.

The rudder on the left of a sport hydro works a little like wedge in a circle track car... If you have the rudder properly adjusted and placed, it helps to plant the right front sponson, which is something that is more of an issue on a sport hydro, do to additional lifting forces and the extra weight of the hull itself.

Also, having the rudder and the turn fin on the right makes trying to correct to the left a bit more touchy... The boat is much more likely to ride up on the fin and rudder and flip when trying to steer back to the left down the straights...

I mean seriously... We're running 2" props on a boat with a 6" transom... We're doing speeds that would scale up to well over 300mph... (50mph in a 1/12th scale hull... you do the math...)... And water DOESN'T scale... Sorry if you disagree... but it's a fact... not my "expertise"... just a fact.

If you have a different opinion, that's fine. The question was asked, and I participated in the thread... SUE me... The FASTEST guys run them as I've described for the most part... no expertise... just a point of fact.

In the future, if you want to be an ASS... PM me about it instead... and stop wasting these other good people's time by publicly trying to do whatever it is you feel you need to do to me publicly... :olleyes:

[Diegoboy]

Thank you Darin! Your input is very highly regarded.

[Hydromaniac]

Sheesh... Go attack someone who cares... If you want to put your rudder on the right... put it on the right. I could really give a rip... I answered the pole question, and didn't claim any "expertise".... In fact... I can't say specifically why riggers seem to work better with the rudder on the right. They typically just do.

The rudder on the left of a sport hydro works a little like wedge in a circle track car... If you have the rudder properly adjusted and placed, it helps to plant the right front sponson, which is something that is more of an issue on a sport hydro, do to additional lifting forces and the extra weight of the hull itself.

Also, having the rudder and the turn fin on the right makes trying to correct to the left a bit more touchy... The boat is much more likely to ride up on the fin and rudder and flip when trying to steer back to the left down the straights...

I mean seriously... We're running 2" props on a boat with a 6" transom... We're doing speeds that would scale up to well over 300mph... (50mph in a 1/12th scale hull... you do the math...)... And water DOESN'T scale... Sorry if you disagree... but it's a fact... not my "expertise"... just a fact.

If you have a different opinion, that's fine. The question was asked, and I participated in the thread... SUE me... The FASTEST guys run them as I've described for the most part... no expertise... just a point of fact.

In the future, if you want to be an ASS... PM me about it instead... and stop wasting these other good people's time by publicly trying to do whatever it is you feel you need to do to me publicly... :olleyes:

You were not attacked you simply avoided the question with an as fact kind of answer and I pointed that out. If you felt attacked I apologize,Can you argue that major factors of hull design and driving come in to play with rudder placement in BOTH model and real boats. And have worked well in both cases,

[shockerman80]

i perfer mine in the air due to the boat being too fast and flipping.

[Flying Scotsman]

You were not atacked you simply avoided the question with an as fact kind of answer and I pointed that out. If you felt atacked I apologize,Can you argue that major factors of hull design and driving come in to play with rudder placement in BOTH model and real boats. And have worked well in both cases,

Why should he argue the point. He stated his opinoin. What is yours?

Douggie

[Hydromaniac]

Why should he argue the point. He stated his opinoin. What is yours?

Douggie

He states it will be "faster" if rudder is placed on the left. IMO it is dependant of hull design and driver and that rudder on the left side of the transome is not a hard fact or rule and will not always give the best results.

[Flying Scotsman]

I am no expert but on a hydro that you want to turn right, it would make sense to have the turn fin on the right and the rudder on the left.

Douggie

[Jeff Wohlt]

They can be used on both but it is a matter of hull.

I only see mine with the Campbell run thru the corners very well. I have not tried it on the left. My UL1 Original RC Hydos was on the left. Andy always said to put it as far left as you could.

I guess until you ask a hydro expert that sets up the big ones we won't know. And even at that....it may not be the same as ours. Remember, this is a pivot point.

Yes, most of the big real hydros have it on the right and fin on the left since they go the wrong way :)

[teach]

I have a pair of Cambels classic hydros that I ran the exact same hardware on. I prefer the rudder on the left. It seems smoother coming out of the corner. Not sure how to put this. With the one on the right it would come out of the corner and as soon as I put the wheel to neutral it would jerk and flip. Now this was only in lane 1. With a nice wide turn, say lane 3-4......sometimes 12 :o , I couldn't tell much difference.

[paulwilliams]

I've run the rudder on both sides, tbh never noticed any difference. On the left, the rudder is slightly further away from the turn fin, and so has more leverage - dunno if this makes any difference...

EDIT:
Another variable is where the rudder blade is in relation to the propeller thrust cone, in other words whether when turning the rudder presents the leading or trailing edge to the water flowing off the prop. This could either magnify rudder effect, or reduce it due to running in turbulent water, or have no effect whatsoever. We need a test tank with high speed video and stroboscopic lighting. Perhaps a winter project for someone... :-)

Paul

[Fluid]

Putting the rudder far to the left - which you can do with most hydros due to their wider transoms - gives it more leverage to "load" the right sponson, helping to keep it down in the turns. But this makes the boat far more sensitive to turning left, and most hydros will respond to excessive left rudder by rolling over.

Riggers are usually lighter, wider and have lower CGs than full-bodied hydros, so loading the right sponson is far less critical - prop torque from the big wheels they spin usually does enough of that. The hooked turn fins in use today also make a big difference holding the sponson down in turns. Putting the rudder on the right works fine and reduces the usual problems with applying left rudder. Too, the rigger transom is so narrow that little is gained with a left rudder placement anyway.

I've run the rudder on the left and right of the same hydro hull and saw little if any difference. That boat had a pretty narrow transom however, and a wider transom might have seem more difference. Whatever you do, don't put the rudder right behind a surfacing prop. You'll get poor tracking, hunting and excessive drag....and too much rudder response.


.

[AndyKunz]

Sport/Scale = Left, Rigger = Right.

Both kinds are hydros :)

Because it makes the internal layout easier.

And because they're generally faster that way on models, but not necessarily on full-scale (which prefers to put them on the same side as the skid fin, like a rigger).

Reynolds and Maxwell and vapor pressures and stiction and all kinds of neat things don't scale up.

Andy

PS - 50 MPH for a 1/12th scale boat is NOT a scale speed of 300 MPH because you have to use a square rule, not a linear one.

[HOTWATER]

I kind of like the fact that when the rudder is on the left, the servo pulls for right hand turns instead of pushing...:popcorn2:

[Simon.O.]

My small rigger has it on the left
4S rigger on the right

24" shovel hydro on the left in front of the prop

All of these boats will track straight with the rudder at zero and will change direction like a pinball.

For oval hydro racing the rudders is often on the left.

[raptor347]

The best riggers I know of all run rudders on the right. The rudder is used less for ride attitude in the corners on a rigger, especially if you run rear shoes or a ride pad. Also, you can get a better turn fin placement on most riggers. The riggers I've seen with rudders on the left tend to tighten up in the turns as the right sponson get loaded, in the worst cases they spin or wind in.

The fastest sport hydros I of know run rudders on the left mostly because it loads the right sponson in the corners which aids in corner stabilty and makes up for less than optimal turn fin placement.

None of this matters if the basic boat design sucks.

[crabstick]

TBH I have always run rudder and turnfin on the right on riggers and hydros, and the boats have turned both directions well, given they dont turn left as well, but do turn, my 1/8 nitro I used to run had both on the right and would turn either direction without wanting to dig a sponson, I normally offset the driveline a little to the right also so im not sure if that counters it ?? It would also trackstraight with no rudder input. Some of the 1/8s in out club wont turn left at speed at all its over she goes if any attempt is made, which can happen avoiding dead boats in a heat race.

My Whiplash 20 for P restricted, that is in the build at the moment I am thinking I will probably go right also, as its what I have had work for me in the past.

thats my three fiddy.

[Punisher 67]

Andy

PS - 50 MPH for a 1/12th scale boat is NOT a scale speed of 300 MPH because you have to use a square rule, not a linear one.

Please no offence Darin but Andy beat me to the scale speed issue

[Darin Jordan]

Please no offence Darin but Andy beat me to the scale speed issue

No offense taken... apparently one of the mathmatical details I missed during my studies! ;)

I still stand by the point I was making... 200mph or 300mph... directly scale up one of our models and it's not going to work very well...

[Punisher 67]

No offense taken... apparently one of the mathmatical details I missed during my studies! ;)

I still stand by the point I was making... 200mph or 300mph... directly scale up one of our models and it's not going to work very well...

Water to models is a lot thicker material than to there full size counterparts , you can see this with anything tiny . throw it on water and it cannot break the surface tension

[Blackjack-sven]

Guess I'm the only one who put the rudder on my hydro on the right. LOL
I have only seen riggers run straight lines and therefore it would make sense that it wouldn't matter. I don't run riggers so I wouldn't know. My guess though is that if the boat only turns in one direction then the rudder should be on the inside of the turn, regardless of hull type.

[Blackjack-sven]

I still stand by the point I was making... 200mph or 300mph... directly scale up one of our models and it's not going to work very well...

To add to this. As a seasoned rc car racer, I know that scaling up an rc car would never work due to the physics involved. The A-arms on a full sized version of a buggy would just snap clean off due to weight and impact.

[Darin Jordan]

Guess I'm the only one who put the rudder on my hydro on the right. LOL


You aren't the only one... My older DH shovel that I ran in O-Sport Hydro a few years back (painted up like the '75 Oberto) originally had the rudder on the right... Worked OK... The boat was much more drivable and faster in the turns, however, when I moved it to the left... I had the boat setup so I could swap sides in about 5-minutes... so I tested it both ways... Left side won out...

[egneg]

On my Campbell classic hydro the rudder is on the right (as per instructions) and I have seen them done this way quite a bit.

[HOTWATER]

The best riggers I know of all run rudders on the right. The rudder is used less for ride attitude in the corners on a rigger, especially if you run rear shoes or a ride pad. Also, you can get a better turn fin placement on most riggers. The riggers I've seen with rudders on the left tend to tighten up in the turns as the right sponson get loaded, in the worst cases they spin or wind in.

The fastest sport hydros I of know run rudders on the left mostly because it loads the right sponson in the corners which aids in corner stabilty and makes up for less than optimal turn fin placement.

None of this matters if the basic boat design sucks.

I think that Brian has riggers down to a science! I am all ears to his advice (as far as riggers go).

Also, good feedback Darin! As Diego has mentioned...your words and theories are welcome to me as well!!

Some very good advice here guys...

-Kent

[Diegoboy]

I hate to disrupt the flow of great advise by posting here. :o, I'm just reading & absorbing now.

[GregS]

The rudder on my BBY Zephyr hydro I put on the right as per the instructions. I do not having handling issues related to steering with it.

Greg

[Jeff Wohlt]

Rudder on right on cambell with Fuller wdge....no issues.... but I am also not running 50 mph in oval trim.

[teach]

Rudder on right on cambell with Fuller wdge....no issues.... but I am also not running 50 mph in oval trim.

One of my favorite people in my club would tell you just add more voltage!

[Diegoboy]

It's not unanimous, but the majority seem to agree.

[Ub Hauled]

........But this makes the boat far more sensitive to turning left, and most hydros will respond to excessive left rudder by rolling over.
.

Thanks Jay, that solves one of my problems:thumbup1:
My DH just does not like turning left... if I come out of a corner and overshoot
the straight line, I spend the whole straight away trying to correct it, sometimes
she spins out if I am not careful... not a good.

[tharmer]

When I had that spin out problem with my 1/10th scale Pak, it was too much angle on the turn fin. The less angle on the turn fin, the more right rudder you can use before it spins.

I set my hydro so that it has a click or two of right trim (remember, I turn the wrong way). This ensures that if I over steer a corner a bit, it will straighten itself out without me having to add any right rudder.

-t

[Ub Hauled]

When I had that spin out problem with my 1/10th scale Pak, it was too much angle on the turn fin. The less angle on the turn fin, the more right rudder you can use before it spins.

I set my hydro so that it has a click or two of right trim (remember, I turn the wrong way). This ensures that if I over steer a corner a bit, it will straighten itself out without me having to add any right rudder.

-t

I knew about the severe turn fin angle spin out syndrome, there isn't too much of it right now (at least on my hulls)... I think "the rookie" Jay nailed it. :tongue_smilie:
I personally don't like to have my rudders compensating for any off vector tendencies, I'd rather find out what the problem is and deal with it at the source.:thumbup1:

[Diegoboy]

I took a lesson from this thread and mounted my Renegade rudder on the right!
Cross your fingers for me!!

http://www.diegoboy.com/misc/100_3575.jpg

[Mad Hatter]

The left side of the boat is known as the port side (I don't now why), the right side is known as the starboard side. I have been told that this came from the words "steer board" that's where the helmsmen steered the vessel in Viking days. Most of the 1:1 hydros I've seen had there rudders on the right, most of the crew doesn't know why. Some say it just makes it easy to pull the prop and/or shaft. Frankly I don't think that dual ruders make bad sence. Whatever floats your boat! -Ken-

[rearwheelin]

Putting the rudder far to the left - which you can do with most hydros due to their wider transoms - gives it more leverage to "load" the right sponson, helping to keep it down in the turns. But this makes the boat far more sensitive to turning left, and most hydros will respond to excessive left rudder by rolling over.

Riggers are usually lighter, wider and have lower CGs than full-bodied hydros, so loading the right sponson is far less critical - prop torque from the big wheels they spin usually does enough of that. The hooked turn fins in use today also make a big difference holding the sponson down in turns. Putting the rudder on the right works fine and reduces the usual problems with applying left rudder. Too, the rigger transom is so narrow that little is gained with a left rudder placement anyway.

I've run the rudder on the left and right of the same hydro hull and saw little if any difference. That boat had a pretty narrow transom however, and a wider transom might have seem more difference. Whatever you do, don't put the rudder right behind a surfacing prop. You'll get poor tracking, hunting and excessive drag....and too much rudder response.


.

This ! lol.... fingers crossed lol

[nitro ned]

I rely on pivot angle between rudder and turn fin to determine position on my hydros. I aim for 17 to 18 degrees and is the sweet spot on all my hydros. Some require a left side placement and som a right side placement. Usually depends on size of boat and width of transom. I avoid placement behind the prop for hydros as the rudder is in too much disturbed water

[Mad Hatter]

I was simply stating tradition. Riggers obviously are a different breed, indeed! Of course you will want to place the rudder and/or turn fin where they need to be to get the boat to hook/bite! This is how you win races! Like I said whatever floats your boat! Just find the perfect setup for making right hand turns and tell me what it is. I won't be in the boat (it's r/c) and I won't feel the feel the G forces. -Ken-

[grsboats]

Since I've started to run "riggers" in the mid 80's all of them have their rudders in the rightside working great,never tried in the left.
Gill