Ammo

[Darin Jordan]

You might want to send this to all your hunting buddies family & friends.

Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009

It has already started.... Ammunition Accountability Legislation Remember how Obama said that he wasn't going to take your guns? Well, it seems that his allies in the anti-gun world have no problem with taking your ammo! The bill 20 that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana ) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacture a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers. Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded. Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo..) They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more! If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun! This legislation is currently pending in 18 states: Alabama , Arizona , California , Connecticut , Hawaii , Illinois , Indiana , Kentucky , Maryland , Mississippi , Missouri , New Jersey , New York , Pennsylvania , Rhode Island , South Carolina , Tennessee , and Washington .. Send to your friends in these states AND fight to dissolve this BILL!! To find more about the anti-gun group that is sponsoring this legislation and the specific legislation for each state, go to:

http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm



http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammunition.asp

[Dr. Jet]

Time to invest in precious metals: Brass and lead!

Note to ammo buyers: Do not use checks or credit cards for your investments. Cash is King. Pardon me while I go out and "update my portfolio".

;)

[Ub Hauled]

I don't know the small details of this bill, so I am going to say this from what I heard:
I think it's great that they make all this ammo traceable, it'll help to find murderers and low life like these... the extra 5 cents per bullet is a way to help the government to get outta the hole that was dug in the last 8 years, is it fair? No, but unfortunately we are the ones that have to bail the country out of it's status quo, the head "honchos" need to get these plans underway and we have to dance according to the music.
About the deadline to use your uncoded ammo... let's face it, if you cannot get rid of a couple of boxes in two years, what kinda gun lover are you anyway?!
Whether we like it or no there are morons out there that don't know or misuse guns and that's where the problem lays... if all of us were trained and responsible users, none of this would be necessary.

[Flying Scotsman]

I don't know the small details of this bill, so I am going to say this from what I heard:
I think it's great that they make all this ammo traceable, it'll help to find murderers and low life like these... the extra 5 cents per bullet is a way to help the government to get outta the hole that was dug in the last 8 years, is it fair? No, but unfortunately we are the ones that have to bail the country out of it's status quo, the head "honchos" need to get these plans underway and we have to dance according to the music.
About the deadline to use your uncoded ammo... let's face it, if you cannot get rid of a couple of boxes in two years, what kinda gun lover are you anyway?!
Whether we like it or no there are morons out there that don't know or misuse guns and that's where the problem lays... if all of us were trained and responsible users, none of this would be necessary.

This response makes total sense to me.

Douggie

[Dr. Jet]

This response makes total sense to me.

Douggie

You are assuming the "Bad Guys" will use the coded ammo. :olleyes:

Registering guns certianly got them out of the hands of the bad guys, didn't it?

:sarcasm1:

I suppose this will make all my reloading gear much more valuable in the future.

[Rex R]

well since it is simply not feasible to encode(micro or otherwise) the shear volume of ammo used per day... then I would guess that ammo will for the most part will simply disapear. oh and you can just forget about buying ammo for your scattergun.

[Ub Hauled]

You are assuming the "Bad Guys" will use the coded ammo.
after 2011 yes they will... since it will be the only ammo that is for sale, they would have to either use the "marked" ammo or go through each round and "clean" it...
the "good guys" are always one step behind the "bad" guys and we can only make it harder for the "perps"... the world will never be w/o bad elements, at least not until our values change.

[egneg]

Can you say black market uncoded ammo? This will go underground for sure.

[Steven Vaccaro]

after 2011 yes they will... since it will be the only ammo that is for sale, they would have to either use the "marked" ammo or go through each round and "clean" it...
the "good guys" are always one step behind the "bad" guys and we can only make it harder for the "perps"... the world will never be w/o bad elements, at least not until our values change.

UB there are millions of shell casings out there. All of which can be reloaded by 10 year old. I used to do with my father watching me over my shoulder. Guess what, the old loaders are still around. Time to stock up on shell casings!

Values change from the top down, not the other way around, unfortunately the top is more corrupt than the bottom. So where's that leave us at the bottom? :huh:

[Ub Hauled]

Steven, I understand that there are loaders and that people use them and that's why I stated we can only make it more difficult for them... if they really want the untraceable ammo, they will find a way.
In regards of the values... they start at home, regardless if you are on top or bottom of the "totem", if you are raised with weak/wrong values at home, NOTHING will change you down the line... yes the so called "top" is corrupt, that does not mean that you or I have to be, does it?
Change starts at home, with our children.

[Steven Vaccaro]

As agree that family is a big part. But once a child grows to an adult and see's the rest of the world is corrupt, I believe a large percentage will join them. Or at least be inclined to. Whats that old saying "if he's doing it, why can't I". This is from my experience with my own family and seeing many others in the same "boat" as us. To make a long story short, The last few years has been hell for my parents. My brother is 13 years younger than I and brought up with all the same values as I. Once he turned around 19-20 all that changed. It didn't matter what my parents had taught him as a child. He became his own person and corrupted like the people that he decided to associate himself with. :sad:

[Ub Hauled]

sorry to hear that Steven,
he probably started associating with bad people at a young age where the "wow" factor
must have influenced him to the point where he is now.
I still believe that family is the biggest influence one can have, even though sometimes it does not seems so... just imagine if your parents were "bad seeds" and showed you the "dark side of the force" instead of what you took from them, now imagine the whole country and the the world being brought up like that... we would not have a fighting chance on this rock.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Don't get me wrong I see your point. But my point is that the top is so corrupt that more then ever I'm hearing people call in to talk shows and come into my store, saying things like, "Geitner didn't pay taxes, why should I". Its a problem we are facing as a nation.

[Flying Scotsman]

As agree that family is a big part. But once a child grows to an adult and see's the rest of the world is corrupt, I believe a large percentage will join them. Or at least be inclined to. Whats that old saying "if he's doing it, why can't I". This is from my experience with my own family and seeing many others in the same "boat" as us. To make a long story short, The last few years has been hell for my parents. My brother is 13 years younger than I and brought up with all the same values as I. Once he turned around 19-20 all that changed. It didn't matter what my parents had taught him as a child. He became his own person and corrupted like the people that he decided to associate himself with. :sad:


Steven, in families the values our parents either good or bad, teach kids what kids see..some may want to emulate their parents, others take a different course ...right or wrong..it becomes their ultimate decision

Douggie

[raptor347]

Another $25 for a day at the sporting clays range, wonderful. All my bench rest equipment is useless because they are chambered for custom rounds. I think I'll keep stocking up on reloading supplies. Cash is good.

As usual, the law abiding citizens get punished and the criminals get protected. Sounds like wall street, the banking system, the big three etc. Run everything into the ground and still get millions in bonuses. You don't see the anti-gun politicians giving up their personal CC permits.

The situation we have is what you get after years (and I'm not talking just 8) of no morals, no responsibility and no consequences.

[Ub Hauled]

The situation we have is what you get after years (and I'm not talking just 8) of no morals, no responsibility and no consequences.

I could not agree more with you...

How are criminals being protected though?
Let's not consider politicians for the topics' sake, they are hopeless anyway, it's part of the trade being shady...

[egneg]

Everything is so PC now days because of the liberals and bleeding harts. I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again ... it is time for the Grey Panthers! Abby Hoffman had the right idea back in the late 60's at the democratic convention (remember the Chicago seven). That is when our country came the closest to a modern day revolution and I think it is high time that we did it again. As we are the same generation just a bit older and hopefully wiser.

[Flying Scotsman]

Everything is so PC now days because of the liberals and bleeding harts. I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again ... it is time for the Grey Panthers! Abby Hoffman had the right idea back in the late 60's at the democratic convention (remember the Chicago seven). That is when our country came the closest to a modern day revolution and I think it is high time that we did it again. As we are the same generation just a bit older and hopefully wiser.


PC :bash:do not get me started as this will be a long night. The PC twits are now the idiots that they were perceived to be ??

Douggie

[Ub Hauled]

I don't think it's time to be PC, that ship has sailed...
it's time to break some eggs and make an omelet!
Get the word out that we will not put up with hidden agendas
nor any bullcrap that these selfish few single handedly mess up a nation
and life of MILLIONS of hard working people... that's what needs to happen...
time to take the rotten apples out of the basket.

[raptor347]

How are criminals being protected though?

Laws only effect those that abide by them and the small portion of criminals that get caught/tried/convicted. Don't worry, the violent ones will be out in 5-10 (3 with good behavior).

The real gun/defense issue comes down to two basic points of view:

1. Those who expect to be taken care of. Don't worry, the police will get there 10 minutes after they are contacted. Easy victims.

2. Those who can take care of themselves and repond to a threat. It still takes the police 10 minutes to get there once you contact them. Not so easy victims.

BTW. 10 minutes is a really long time for a rape victim, a member of my family can attest to that. Rapist was never caught, so much for laws. She's very good with a handgun now.

I would rather be in the second group and have that option remain open. The world isn't becoming more civilized. Violence is still common, and as the population density increases it only gets worse. We aren't alone, it's pretty standard among higher vertibrates (the old "too many rats in the cage" analogy).

If you ultimately set yourself up to be a victim, your chances of becoming one are much greater.

All this being said, I've never fired a shot in self defense and hope I never have to. My wife and I do shoot about 10k rounds a year at targets.

[detox]

Hopefully I have enough reloading supplies to last my lifetime and my son's lifetime?

5 shot group shot with factory 223 Remington 700 Varment Synthetic with factory shortened 20" barrel.

[Flying Scotsman]

Not bad but a bit high for the target value at how many feet?

Douggie

[detox]

It's all about the grouping and grouping only. Isn't 100 yards the standard?

[Ub Hauled]

(the old "too many rats in the cage" analogy).
If you ultimately set yourself up to be a victim, your chances of becoming one are much greater.
All this being said, I've never fired a shot in self defense and hope I never have to. My wife and I do shoot about 10k rounds a year at targets.

I truly understand your point, specially coming from a third world country and being victim of robbery myself.
The new law is not outcasting guns nor forbidding people to own guns... why does one need so much ammo? If it's really for self defense, then all one really needs at home is one clip (or six shots for revolvers) and that is not going to be a make or break the bank issue... if you wanna shoot 10k rounds a year then that's on you and does it even matter if they have your SS# on them (extrapolation)?! My point is, if one wants to defend him/herself then a basement full of boxes is not necessary.
Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, instead of having a gun at home we should have more cops or a different judiciary system, well, something to that order ? I also understand that it is something needed sooner then later... I am aware of all that... I still don't think that one needs to have pile of ammo boxes for so called, defense.

[Darin Jordan]

Guys... the 2nd ammendment was placed in the US Constitution for a reason... That reason is what is being attacked here... PUT it TOGETHER! Obama (the current face of the Left Wing of our country) will take the guns... meanwhile, he'll put into place his "Civilian Security Force", or whatever he's calling it....

If it sounds at all familiar, it should...

[AndyKunz]

You need to shoot to retain proficiency. That's why police are constantly at the range - they need to have practice. The more you practice, the more you are relaxed, and the more consistent your shooting.

The last thing you need if you're attacked is to panic. You need to know your weapon and be able to skillfully use it as second nature. Unless you have practiced, you WILL panic. Your shot will be off, and you'll be just as much a victim (maybe more) as if you were unarmed.

I could be playing banjo today as well as I did in college if it weren't that way.

Andy

[Ub Hauled]

According to this Ammunition Accountability Legislation, one can still keep and bear arms Darin (according to your post)... I guess I don't follow what the ruckus is all about...:confused2:

[AndyKunz]

It's sad, but we need to defend ourselves FROM our government today. That's why we were supposed to have a militia and not a standing army.

Andy

[Ub Hauled]

Andy, aren't you being a little extreme here?
I have not the government invade my home with arms yet... although we don't have any privacy anymore these days, but that's a different ball of wax.

[AndyKunz]

According to this Ammunition Accountability Legislation, one can still carry arms Darin (according to your post)... I guess I don't follow what the ruckus is all about...:confused2:

What good are arms if you can't put ammo into them? How can an armed rebellion be successful if the government has records of who has purchased stuff? Hitler did it.

BIG BROTHER is taking over.

Andy

[AndyKunz]

Andy, aren't you being a little extreme here?
I have not the government invade my home with arms yet... although we don't have any privacy anymore these days, but that's a different ball of wax.

Actually I felt I was being a little soft on the issue.

There are so many parallels of this administration to Hitler's that I'm surprised so few people get it. Maybe it's because they don't teach the truth of how systematically Hitler went about taking absolute control of the people.

A little here, a little there. Next thing you know the Jews are in ghettos, then work camps, then furnaces. He started by limiting health care to the chronically ill, then the handicapped, then his political enemies.

The smart Jews who saw what was coming left Germany, then Europe, and finally came here. Many smart Jews said exactly what I quoted above. It cost them and their families their lives.

Andy

[detox]

I thought this topic was about grouping. We are talking about grouping.

[Ub Hauled]

Oh I see what you guys are talking about,
do you think that at this day and age it'll be ever
as bad as when Hitler was in power? I really don't think so.
It may be less free for all kinda thing but not ever a dictatorship.
This will not put a cap on how much you can buy, and if you have nothing to hide
you will be able to buy and shoot as much as you can afford.
That' how I view it at least... I guess I am a "half full" kinda guy.

[Darin Jordan]

I guess I am a "half full" kinda guy.

I'm a "clip" half-full guy... ;)

[Ub Hauled]

I thought this topic was about grouping. We are talking about grouping.

nope, sorry, wrong thread
;)

[Ub Hauled]

A little here, a little there. Next thing you know the Jews are in ghettos, then work camps, then furnaces. He started by limiting health care to the chronically ill, then the handicapped, then his political enemies.


Actually, I know a little about this, my grandparents left Germany during war and shared some of the facts... but I also know to let the past be the past, learn from mistakes and move forward, just because some of the things are happening now seem like what happened then, doesn't mean "Hitler" is coming back. My grandparents told me that SOME of the things he did for Germany was good at the time... of course, that was before he made a wrong turn somewhere and became power crazy...
Anyway, there are too many people watching the "Prez's" moves, for many reasons, for that point alone, I think nothing like Nazi Germany will EVER happen again.
But again, I respect anyone's opinions and will not try to convince anybody to convert to what I believe.

[Flying Scotsman]

Andy, I love you but that was the most assine answer I have ever read with a tongue in cheek in answer...I hope.... Some twits may answer your call

Douggie

[ghostofpf1]

All of a sudden the "Patriot Act" supporters are in an uproar ...:bounce:

Steve

[AndyKunz]

Actually, I know a little about this, my grandparents left Germany during war and shared some of the facts...

My mother lived thru the whole thing, didn't get here until 1951. She still gets physically sick to her stomach when she is exposed to things she saw there (when I lived in NC, they had to take a roundabout route to visit me to avoid the more impoverished areas). She made a very difficult series of tapes about her youth several years ago. It took her several months to make only 2 hours of recollections. We have no idea what "hard" is in this country ...

I guess I could say one good thing is that we never ran out of any food, cleaners, or such growing up. We always had at least one more on the shelf.


just because some of the things are happening now seem like what happened then, doesn't mean "Hitler" is coming back.

My brother has been to Pakistan. Mushariff is not much better. Most of the mohammedan world is poised to repeat the Holocaust because (a) they deny that it occurred, and (b) they think it would be a good thing to eliminate Jews and Christians.

Next time it will cover the whole earth, not just Europe or America. There will be no safe haven anywhere.


My grandparents told me that SOME of the things he did for Germany was good at the time... of course, that was before he made a wrong turn somewhere and became power crazy...

I agree, and some of the things that will be done during the Obama administration will be good (I'm still waiting for one of them to be introduced, though). But that little good does not justify what Hitler did later, nor will it justify the plans that the Dems have for America.

I hope to post a WMV from a C-SPAN tape that I think will explain what their plans are. It's at home right now.

The good news in all this is that God's still on the throne. He already knows the end, and He wins!

Andy

[AndyKunz]

All of a sudden the "Patriot Act" supporters are in an uproar ...:bounce:

Steve

And who would those be. I'm still as opposed to the Patriot Act today as I was when they were formulating it.

Andy

[Steven Vaccaro]

All of a sudden the "Patriot Act" supporters are in an uproar ...:bounce:

Steve


Talk about stereo typing! Not all republicans are "patriot act" supporters.

[Darin Jordan]

I agree, and some of the things that will be done during the Obama administration will be good (I'm still waiting for one of them to be introduced, though).

He did just bolster the Food and Drug Administration, and is working to make our food supply safer... That's a good thing...

[Meniscus]

OK, I'm not getting into some of this stuff, but I have the following train of thought and follow-up questions:

Alright, so Obama's thought is, track the ammo and it will reduce crime. So, in scenario 1, a kid gets shot in an accidental driveby by a stray bullet. So, if the bullet was stamped, then we could trace it right?

Scenario 2, a shooting occurs and the bullets are not recognizable for forensic evidence due to the velocity smashing into bone/wall/etc., deforming any markings that would appear on the bullet. So, the investigators find shells nearby and assume that these shells are linked to those bullets.

So here are my questions: Are both the bullets (projectiles) and the shell casings going to be marked? And if only the bullets are marked, then what about shotshell rounds such as those for shotguns or home defense pistols shooting shotshells?

If only the bullets are marked, then is Obama promoting the use of shotguns and pistols firing shotshells by criminals and other gang-related groups?

On the other end of the spectrum, if only the casings were marked, then it seems simple enough to have a bag catch your spent shells or pick them up, then where would this idea be?

Bottom line? It's just another tax initiated to pay for other government spending that cannot be sustained.

Meanwhile, I've got rounds inherited from my grandfather when he passed away. Many of these rounds are the only few in existance to be fired through certain weapons and reloading is not available, you can't even get the casings. So what then?

Final thought, as dismal as it may be, if the government was able to restrict ammo, then criminals may turn to mortar rounds which are not that difficult to put together. Then where would we be?

Our right to bear arms and remain able to overthrow the government. That was the original intent of the Constitution as a final method of checks and balances.

Just my opinion though ;) What do I know? LOL

[Ub Hauled]

Ben, no doubt that this has to be planned out, I don't know how they will be able to "mark" a round in any way, all I know is stupid people with guns promote violence against anyone... I think there needs to be a way to control the amount of guns/ammo out on the streets, remember, the bad guys have the right to carry guns as well, but they have other plans other then self defense.

[ghostofpf1]

Man some of you are sensitive...I didn't point anyone out and left it vague for a reason...
As far as this being "Obama's doing" these bills have been on the table since the bush admin...yet I see people erroneously blaming Obama as if he authored the bills to start with :roflol:...
Steve

edit...If you read http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/Technology.htm you'll see that they intend to mark the casing and the round itself

[Steven Vaccaro]

I read they now can track which factory gun power is made. Some trace additive that particular to the factory. They can probably do the same to the casing and bullet.

[Jeff Wohlt]

Just picked up a new 9mm pistol Sat.

Easier to check for power residue and barrels than matching up ammo casing and fragments.

As one said...this kind of stupid legis is on the table all the time. (join NRA) Look what one person started by saying banning guns. The gun shops are selling more than ever in many years. Gov is so full of applications they do not even stop the wait period unless you have a record. Easier to buy guns now than it was two years ago.

And we now have conceal and carry in Missouri ...I am taking that class to. :)

If I want to kill-- a $6 arrow will do it and nobody will hear a thing.....trace a walmart arrow...good luck. Don't forget the rubber gloves for prints on the arrow.

I am a proud owner of numerous guns some over 100 years old from my grandpas.

I am not as much mad about guns as I am our freedoms....everyone better take it seriously....we have fewer and fewer and the sell it like it has a good purpose...what ever.

[Meniscus]

Well, I'd like to say that if you needed a gun to revolt, you'd have one. A little birdie told me just go to any VFW or American Legion. Where do you think all of the decommissioned WWII weapons went? And where all of the ROTC weapons, without firing pins of course, come from. Please don't ask me about this info as I don't think it appropriate to disclose.

The problem is ammo. This is why this legislation in particular is quite worrisome.

And for the record, I've got a compound bow that is quite capable of doing the job as well. Have you ever missed a target with a compound bow? I've seen it happen and it went right through an exterior steel door. It makes you think. LOL => tracing Walmart arrows, that's funny!

As a side note, among other things, I have my grandfather's 1947 (pre'64) Winchester Model 70 in 270. Only thing is, he special ordered it, custom as target model. Only 20 made that year with this setup. I use it today and grouping is less than an inch at 200 yards, propped against a tree. Last hunting season, in the heat of the moment, I hit a deer twice at 125 yards, 1 second between shots. Grouping was side by side, less than 1/4". Meanwhile, my grandfather hunted moose and elk with the thing and has the pictures and racks to prove it. I even have a moose mount that was 55" at the shoulder, spread of 49" wide by 43" deep. Who says a 270 can't do the job? LOL

Now I guess I need to hoard some rounds! And pay in cash, LOL!

I'm not even a gun guy! I prefer a bow any day!

[Ub Hauled]

I read they now can track which factory gun power is made. Some trace additive that particular to the factory. They can probably do the same to the casing and bullet.

that would be the way to do that I think, something that is inherent in the projectile that people cannot file off...

[Flying Scotsman]

From a global viewpoint. I hate to state this comment. Guns will not solve your problems are you so paranoid that carrying a concealed weapon of death makes you feal secure out on the street and your car. WE as a global nation are in trouble and this is not the Wild West era. I hope

Douggie

[Ub Hauled]

I wish we could snap our fingers and make the guns go away Douggie... reality is, it will not happen.
The only way to get things moving the right direction is making it difficult to get away with armed crimes and have a severe punishment as a result... it is obvious to me that criminals don't understand the "slap on the wrist" that they get for doing something bad... they spend sometime at "club med", once they are have done 1-3 and have good behavior, they are out back on the streets doing their thing and send us the bill...
we need a better Judiciary system with punishment more according to what they have done.

[Jeff Wohlt]

Well...think how many people could be saved the next time some joker hits a 711 and 4 people pull out 40 cal on him? Would it make you think. The good people will be good...it is the bad people that need the bullet! How many people could have been saved with an Air MArshall on board planes during 911?

Not to mention how much money does the taxpayer spend keeping these nimrods in the jail and sucking up tax dollars?

I am just saying...we have freedoms...forget the gun crap...that is one issue that has been going on for 25 years! Will it end with that?

[Doby]

From a global viewpoint. I hate to state this comment. Guns will not solve your problems are you so paranoid that carrying a concealed weapon of death makes you feal secure out on the street and your car. WE as a global nation are in trouble and this is not the Wild West era. I hope

Douggie

As much as it pains me to say it...........I have to agree with Dougiee:hide::hide:

We don't carry guns here in the Great White North and feel pretty safe.

There are bigger issues to be dealt with than tracking ammo, guns etc.

[Jeff Wohlt]

Douggie lives in one of the lowest gun crime country's in the world.

It is one of our freedoms is all I am saying. I grew up hunting and feeling owning a gun was normal and a right of living in the USA.

So mark all the ammo you want...when you feel your life is threatened you have the right to defend...that is all I want to remain the same.

Break in my house and your time is up...plain and simple. I am no extremist either...I just want to live free or DIE!! (NH motto)

[Flying Scotsman]

John, you are so sweet but hiding under a chair will not escape the wrath of THE MIGHTY DOUGGIE :bash::flame42: :beerchug:

Douggie

[Flying Scotsman]

Douggie lives in one of the lowest gun crime country's in the world.

It is one of our freedoms is all I am saying. I grew up hunting and feeling owning a gun was normal and a right of living in the USA.

So mark all the ammo you want...when you feel your life is threatened you have the right to defend...that is all I want to remain the same.

Break in my house and your time is up...plain and simple. I am no extremist either...I just want to live free or DIE!! (NH motto)

Jeff, I have shot more bird and vermin than you can think of. A pheasant that you brought home...one word...yummy. but hand guns I have no time for and by the way Vancouver has a huge gang/drug problem

Douggie

[egneg]

This is not about hunting - it's about the second amendment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p

[Meniscus]

You hit it on the nose Egneg, or maybe between the eyes.

[Flying Scotsman]

The second amendment was written in times that a militia may be required to defend a new nation. Today...rubbish :hide::hide: :flashfire:

Douggie

[raptor347]

Jeff, I have shot more bird and vermin than you can think of. A pheasant that you brought home...one word...yummy. but hand guns I have no time for and by the way Vancouver has a huge gang/drug problem

Douggie

Douggie,
Like I said, it's all about the population density. It's nice and peaceful outside town.

Wait, I hunt deer and pigs with a handgun. It's a really big handgun and not real practical for defense purposes, but still a handgun. It's great, I carry it in a back holster when I'm out bird hunting.

If you want to get rid of something that causes a lot of violence, get rid of alcohol. How about making drivers licences a bit harder to qualify for, lots more highway deaths that could be avoided there. Violence/death isn't what makes this an issue. Just looking at raw numbers. It doesn't matter how many are killed every year due to cars or alcohol (or cars and alcohol). You don't have the potential for an armed revolution because everyone has a beer and a car. A good portion of the guncontrol politicians have CC permits.

Probably ought to get rid of all the archery equipment also, have you ever seen what a good broadhead will do to the everage tactical vest.

[Ub Hauled]

Douggie,
...... get rid of alcohol. How about making drivers licenses a bit harder to qualify for,

I think they really should... once I was at the DMV and a lady that looked like 90 years old was there to renew her license... I asked the guy if she could actually do it and the guy responded: "as long as she passes the eye exam she can".
DUDE! AN EYE EXAM!?!??!?! How about motor skills, reflexes or even strength to turn the fricking steering wheel?!?!?! There should be a qualification test for "more experienced" drivers as well! I am sure you all had an encounter of some kind with an older person driving... I remember this case a few years back, in Santa Monica, CA, there is a farmers market every Wednesday (maybe some other day), and this older gentlemen said he got confused, ran over one of those temporary barriers they put up to close the streets and once hit it, he realized what he had done, he got even more confused, hit the gas paddle instead of the breaks and ran over a dozen people... how nice is that...
well, I am getting off topic here, sorry.

[Spot Me 2]

This bill was shot down here in Indiana. It is no longer being considered. I didn't think it would hold any water here. Idiana has some pretty liberal(to take that word back) gun laws.

[AndyKunz]

The second amendment was written in times that a militia may be required to defend a new nation. Today...rubbish :hide::hide: :flashfire:

Douggie

Doesn't matter. The Supreme Court last year ruled that the Second Amendment is not to be considered a "hunting guns" right, it is the right to bear arms, and many laws around the nation were invalidated by it.

What the left is doing now is in response to that decision. If they can't take the guns away, they are going to make it so that they can track every single round purchased. It's all about control. Watch Red Dawn - see where they begin rounding people up. That's exactly what their plan is.

Andy

[Jeff Wohlt]

Andy, I love that movie. Never know.

I am with Brian...there are many that hunt with big hanguns.

After thinking what douggie said (and a call to Dr. Phil) about paranoid I got to thinking...why do I feel like I may want to defend myself. Here is what I grew up around...well a couple miles from it but we had breaks all the time. My buddy found one escapee in the basement of a house while checking the water meter.Made him give up his flashlight and some clothes but never harmed him.

Read this. It is now closed but may become a tourist attraction. We park our state cars there now and I get to look at it all the time. A tour to the gas chamber is a real rush. When I was a kid I can remember hearing a break on the news and Dad would lock everything and put a couple rounds in his 12 ga.

Missouri State Penitentiary - Jefferson City, MO

This prison opened in 1836 and seemingly underwent expansion ever since. In 1888, it was named the largest prison in the world. The facility promoted growth for Jefferson City through economy and prison labor. In 1954, an overpopulation and general decay of the building led to a three-day riot, which was only squelched by the National Guard. As result, four inmates died and the building sustained millions dollars worth of damage. It was decommissioned in October of 2004 and the inmates were moved to a new facility, but the building remains a target for future redevelopment plans. In its 168-year history, the penitentiary played host to various notorious criminals.

James Earl Ray
One of the more infamous inmates incarcerated in the Missouri State Penitentiary was a smalltime criminal when he came there. James Earl Ray was a no-name crook that robbed a Kroger Grocery store in 1959. He was given a habitual offender status and sentenced to 20 years at the Missouri State Penitentiary. In 1967, Ray worked in the prison's bakery and managed to fit himself in a 4x4 box. Another convict covered the box with bread and it was placed on a truck leaving the prison. A cursory search by the guards turned up nothing suspicious and the truck was sent on its way. James Earl Ray escaped the Missouri State Penitentiary on April 23, 1967. Nearly one year later, on April 4, 1968, Ray would assassinate civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in Memphis, Tennessee.

Charles "Pretty Boy" Floyd
On September 11, 1925, Charles Floyd robbed a Kroger store/warehouse in Saint Louis, Missouri. One of his victims described him as a "pretty boy" and the name took. So did a jail sentence. He was handed a three and a half year sentence at the Missouri State Penitentiary. Once he left the prison, he headed to Kansas City and began to rob banks regularly and his legend grew. On June 17, 1933, it was alleged that Floyd with Vernon Miller and Adam Richetti, attempted to free their friend Frank Nash from federal custody. As result, four law officers and Nash would be killed in what became known as the Kansas City Massacre. Floyd denied any role in the Massacre. However, in October of 1934, he was tracked to a farm in Clarkson, Ohio where he was killed in a shootout with law enforcement.

Lee "Stagger Lee" Shelton
On December 25, 1895, Lee Shelton would shoot and kill William "Billy" Lyons in a tavern in Saint Louis, Missouri. The crime would become the basis for the immensely popular murder ballad Stagger Lee. It took two trials, but the prosecutors were finally able to convict him and he entered the Missouri State Penitentiary on October 7, 1897. He was credited for helping prison officials capture a "systematic thief" and also had the support of several powerful Democrats in the state, which ultimately led to him being paroled around Thanksgiving of 1909. However, a little more than a year later, he would be convicted of robbery and assault and was returned to the penitentiary on May 7, 1911. This time, Shelton was sick with tuberculosis. After an attempt by the standing governor to pardon him for his crimes was thwarted by the attorney general, Shelton died in the prison hospital on March 11, 1912.


Sonny Liston
In 1950, Liston was convicted of armed robbery in Saint Louis and sentenced to five years in the Missouri State Penitentiary. While in the prison, Liston took up boxing under the watchful eye of the prison chaplain. He would be paroled two years later. On September 25, 1962, Liston would knock out Floyd Patterson in the first round to become Heavyweight Champion of the World. He would hold that title for two more years until February 25, 1964 when he quit in his corner against the young Cassius Clay (who would shortly thereafter take the name Muhammad Ali).

[Steven Vaccaro]

A few years back a punk with a gun and gym bag tried to rob my jewelry store. Came in 2 days before Christmas and went right to the diamond case. There is well over 100k in diamonds in that case. He made the mistake of not keeping a good eye on me. Thankfully I am a NRA member and knew what to do. Lets just say he went running for his life. I know one thing, if I didn't protect my items and myself, no one else would have that day. By the way I was not insured. It would have been a gigantic blow to my business.

On a side note, he was an illegal alien from Mexico. His family said that he was just trying to get enough money to go back to Mexico :cursing:

[Jeff Wohlt]

All I can hear you saying, Steven is "So...do you feel lucky, punk" I Always wanted that 44 mag but never could afford one.

Good for you...glad to know you are an NRA member and support our rights!

I knew you were an alright guy! :)

[Steven Vaccaro]

All I can hear you saying, Steven is "So...do you feel lucky, punk" I Always wanted that 44 mag but never could afford one.

Good for you...glad to know you are an NRA member and support our rights!

I knew you were an alright guy! :)


It sounds like a bold / strong thing to do. But after it was all said and done that day, the police took my gun for forensic evidence(it was returned about 2 months later), my wife was scared to death with 2 small kids at home and I couldn't sleep for months. BUT I would do it again! The best part about the whole thing was that word travels fast, the local gangs knew that we were not going to sit back and take their crap. Some of them actually came in and asked me what happened.

[Jeff Wohlt]

We have a nice indoor range here. I often wonder if I can do everything right if it ever happens. That is why training is so critical. 2 seconds you have to make a decision to draw and fire or just draw and see what happens...can you afford to make that decision to draw and hold? Not sure but my first instinct, based on the situation is draw and fire if he has a weapon like a gun...no if he only has a knife or it is a verbal threat.

What really gets thier attention is the little red lazer stuck on their heart area. :)

I only want to feel like I have a chance is all. We have had killings in our big college town MU (Big 12 Champs...yes!) where they came in...laid the emplyees on the floor and said they would not hurt them they then went and got the money and came back and shot them all laying on the floor. Happened at a gas station here as well.

As I learned in training....there is no more dangerous of a person than people that are desperate. Are these times considered desperate for many people...you bet. Just as I want to protect my family at no cost.....so do parents trying to feed their children. I would much rather give them money to help if that opportunity comes first.

[raptor347]

Steven,
It's sort of funny about gang members, they get almost respectful when they find out you will respond when pushed. We had a problem in our neighborhood for a while, it's not a problem anymore.

Jeff,
You never know until it happens, lots of training gives you an advantage. I shoot everyday, even if it's only airguns at 10m in the garage.

Besides, it's fun.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Steven,
It's sort of funny about gang members, they get almost respectful when they find out you will respond when pushed. We had a problem in our neighborhood for a while, it's not a problem anymore.



I agree.


Jeff,
You never know until it happens,

I couldn't agree more. I have been target practicing and clay shooting since i was about 12 years old. Let me say its a whole lot different.

[Doug Smock]

On a side note, he was an illegal alien from Mexico. His family said that he was just trying to get enough money to go back to Mexico :cursing:

What a shame, if he'd just asked you, I'm sure you would have taken him to the bus station and bought him a ticket.:banana:

[Doby]

What a shame, if he'd just asked you, I'm sure you would have taken him to the bus station and bought him a ticket.:banana:

How much $$$ does it take to go back to Mexico??? Just walk across the border you should not have crossed in the first place and presto....you are home!

[Flying Scotsman]

Very interesting points. Steven if you pulled out a 12 gauge shotgun that would given the perp a few more moments to think I am dead....hand guns are a no no .

Douggie

[Ub Hauled]

How much $$$ does it take to go back to Mexico??? Just walk across the border you should not have crossed in the first place and presto....you are home!

I was thinking the same thing... dude had he asked from money nicely I'd given him a few bux to go back home... hell, if he'd begged money for a week he probably would have flown home! Some people are plain and simply idiots...