One step up, two steps down. Where it stops no one knows.....

[Steven Vaccaro]

Lets see I find out by accident that my wife has a $5000 credit card bill. As mad as I was I ask her to see the bills and find out there is lots of spending for my new born child, so I calm down and say how are we going to fix this? Our basic plan, We stopped going to dinner, didn't buy new cloths for a bit and no vacations. Little by little paid it down to nothing. That's my little world.

If I was the US government I would have tossed my wife another credit card and said "don't worry about it things will get better".

This PORK package is JUNK!!! The smart guys in the market know this and are rebelling in the only way they know how!

Lets face it Obama and his 20 teleprompters(so many its tough to get a good camera angle on him without it being in the picture) are not the next coming. He's trying to force way to much on the budget in bad times. We all need to fight this tooth and nail!

http://www.marketwatch.com/

[Jeff Wohlt]

hmmm... sounds familiar...my wife...whoops. x-wife told me she had over $16,000 in CC debts that I did not know of. She was having the bills sent to her mom's house so I could not find out.

My banker called me and said she was down there wanting to barrow money and he would not do it without my signature.

Well guess what...I kicked her a$$ out after 15 years and said it is more than just the money....we were suppose to be soul mates and that blew it for me.

[Darin Jordan]

Does anyone else find it IRONIC that the Chinese, in response to this economic crisis, have DROPPED Capital Gains taxes, and are taking steps to encourage business and individual investement by LOWERING taxes and promoting "friendly" business climates??

Go Figure! I guess they ARE good at splashing/copying the BEST ideas the US has to offer! :doh:

Too bad WE aren't as talented and forward thinking... :sarcasm1:

[Steven Vaccaro]

Does anyone else find it IRONIC that the Chinese, in response to this economic crisis, have DROPPED Capital Gains taxes, and are taking steps to encourage business and individual investement by LOWERING taxes and promoting "friendly" business climates??

Go Figure! I guess they ARE good at splashing/copying the BEST ideas the US has to offer! :doh:

Too bad WE aren't as talented and forward thinking... :sarcasm1:

This is depressing! Our government for the last 16 plus years has set up up for failure. I was hoping "change" was coming. Not another 4 years of robbing my pocketbook! My kids college funds are off almost 50%! One of my kids will be going attending in 5 years. No way its going to come back.:mad:

[Dr. Jet]

I wonder how many Change-Seeking Obamaniacs are having buyer's remorse right about now? Oh yeah, that's right: the Media didn't TELL you about him before the election, they just told you Bush and Palin were bad, and McCain was old and just wanted more Bush, and Barak Hussein Obama offered change and hope.

:doh:

Looks like I have change and hope now thanks to B.O. :sarcasm1: I have nothing but small change in my pocket and I hope this clown won't take the country any further down the toilet.

Don't worry folks, this inexperienced Neo-Marxist will take us down the road to change all right, just not the change you thought your vote would make.

[Flying Scotsman]

I think the problem is that everyone is scared stupid.
Scared for their jobs, too much debt, etc.
Every government in the world is throwing money to try and solve the dilema of failed banks and corporations to try to stimulate consumer confidence. If, we do not buy, the problem only gets worse. This a global problem and I do not think any one knows how to stop FEAR. We are all bunkering down.

Douggie

[Jeff Wohlt]

I work with some close friends at the Chicago Tribune and they said they are shocked BO made it as far as he did. They do not have a lot of confidence in him.

He sure talks the talks to the blue collar worker.

All this will take time....better than the last D that thought cigars went somehwere else and that was not chip and dip on her dress!! :sorry:

[Darin Jordan]

Every government in the world is throwing money to try and solve the dilema of failed banks and corporations to try to stimulate consumer confidence.

No they are not... These numbers can be "fixed" a couple of different ways... The way our government is choosing is to take more money from us and spend it on social programs and building roads and bridges... to nowhere, most likely...

The way the Chinese are doing it is to let us KEEP MORE OF OUR MONEY, and spend what they have trying to stimulate job growth and businesses...

I wonder which plan will work better...??? Actually... come to think of it... I don't wonder at all... :olleyes:

[Flying Scotsman]

Darin, the Chinese are notorious for hoarding their cash. Their problem is many that fled from a rural economy and now face the reality of closed factories. Their government is scared stupid about an angry mob of citizens

Douggie

[ghostofpf1]

I'd rather they take it from us for jobs and infrastructure than for failed war efforts and financial "institutions"...where was all the teeth gnashing and wailing from the right when teh shrub did us in ??

Steve

[Bill-SOCAL]

Originally Posted by Flying Scotsman:
Every government in the world is throwing money to try and solve the dilema of failed banks and corporations to try to stimulate consumer confidence.


No they are not...

You and I must have different sources for information.

England

Bank of England to start pumping money into UK economy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/04/bank-of-england-quantitative-easing

Russia

The Vedomosti business daily reported on Thursday that the latest draft budget earmarks more than a quarter of its spending for anti-crisis measures - a sum that amounts to around 1.9 trillion rubles.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/19/business/ruble.php

Iceland

The government withstood furious protests last year after the nationalization of three banks -
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/26/iceland-government-collapse-markets-equity-cx_vr_0126markets35.html

Japan

Government officials have hinted that Japan would consider drafting a fresh fiscal stimulus package to stem the downturn. Prime Minister Taro Aso, whose popularity ratings have plummeted even as an election approaches this year, has already promised stimulus spending worth almost ¥50 trillion in two packages unveiled late last year.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/16/business/16yen.php

France

France's Prime Minister Francois Fillon has unveiled a series of measures worth 26bn euros ($33.1bn; £23.5bn) designed to "revitalise" the French economy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7864942.stm

And since you mentioned it:

China

China on Sunday announced a huge economic stimulus package aimed at bolstering its weakening economy and perhaps helping fight the effects of a global economic slowdown. In a sweeping move at a time when major projects are being put off around the world, Beijing said it would spend an estimated $586 billion by 2010 on wide array of national infrastructure and social welfare projects, including constructing new railways, subways, airports and rebuilding communities devastated by an earthquake in southwest China in May.
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/11/the-chinese-eco.html


It seems that some sort of government intervention and stimulus packages are pretty much the norm around the world as a response to the current world economic crisis.

[Dr. Jet]

Darrin's post was meant to elucidate the fact that the Chinese are REDUCING taxes, and providing BUSINESS INCENTIVES instead of taxing the people/companies that PRODUCE WEALTH.

The government, by definition, produces nothing. They can only take away from those that do.

Government is not the solution to this financial mess. It is the reason we are in this mess.

Bush (in his final 9 months in office) became a fiscal socialist. So the pointy-headed "intellectuals" figured we needed a change, so they voted in this Neo-Marxist. We are going from the frying pan into the fire (that's a change).

[Bill-SOCAL]

Sorry Dr. Jet, but that is NOT what he said. Douggie's very clearly stated that governments are throwing money at the problem to which Darin plainly stated, "No they are not."

He then went on to use China as an example, but even China has a huge stimulus package.

About China


China will exempt foreign investors in the nation's local-currency securities from paying capital- gains tax, the latest attempt to revive stock markets that have lost more than half their value in the past four years.



But this again is government attempting to solve the problem. And China is very far more dependent on foreign investment than internal, so this is a huge thing for them.

[Darin Jordan]

Bill... you might want to read the whole thing in context... I know... you libs have a problem doing that, but Dr. Jet got it, and likely, if you try hard enough, you can too... :tt2:

[AndyKunz]

China

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/11/the-chinese-eco.html

China on Sunday announced a huge economic stimulus package aimed at bolstering its weakening economy and perhaps helping fight the effects of a global economic slowdown. In a sweeping move at a time when major projects are being put off around the world, Beijing said it would spend an estimated $586 billion by 2010 on wide array of national infrastructure and social welfare projects, including constructing new railways, subways, airports and rebuilding communities devastated by an earthquake in southwest China in May.



Bill,

What are the Chinese doing? BUILDING INFRASTRUCTURE.

What are the Obamites doing? GIVING MONEY AWAY.

Major difference, imho.

FWIW, a lot of the WPA projects built where I grew up in NJ are still in daily use. My elementary school, high school, and most of the bridges on the road I grew up on (hilly, wet, LOTS of crossings) are still in good repair. The cash we got the past two times? I stuck them mostly into my savings account.

Not that I like socialism (be it FDR's or modern European or Asian), but WORKFARE is better than WELFARE. If we're gonna do it, at least do it right.

Andy

[RCprince]

Ron Paul, was the ticket for the economical situation... I'll continue to say... Get rid of the FED. and start Putting peoples a@@##$ in jail... Now Mr Madoff is getting off with plea deal. Only in America!

[RCprince]

Bill,
Not that I like socialism (be it FDR's or modern European or Asian), but WORKFARE is better than WELFARE. If we're gonna do it, at least do it right.

Andy

I agree with Workfare... Something for Nothing, leads to Nothing.

[Dr. Jet]

Shortly after class, an economics student approaches his economics
professor and says, "I don't understand this stimulus bill. Can you
explain it to me?"

The professor replied, "I don't have any time to explain it at my
office, but if you come over to my house on Saturday and help me with my
weekend project, I'll be glad to explain it to you." The student
agreed.

At the agreed-upon time, the student showed up at the professor's house.
The professor stated that the weekend project involved his backyard
pool.

They both went out back to the pool, and the professor handed the
student a bucket. Demonstrating with his own bucket, the professor
said, "First, go over to the deep end, and fill your bucket with as much
water as you can." The student did as he was instructed.

The professor then continued, "Follow me over to the shallow end, and
then dump all the water from your bucket into it." The student was
naturally confused, but did as he was told.

The professor then explained they were going to do this many more times,
and began walking back to the deep end of the pool.

The confused student asked, "Excuse me, but why are we doing this?"

The professor matter-of-factly stated that he was trying to make the
shallow end much deeper.

The student didn't think the economics professor was serious, but
figured that he would find out the real story soon enough.

However, after the 6th trip between the shallow end and the deep end,
the student began to become worried that his economics professor had
gone mad. The student finally replied, "All we're doing is wasting
valuable time and effort on unproductive pursuits. Even worse, when
this process is all over, everything will be at the same level it was
before, so all you'll really have accomplished is the destruction of
what could have been truly productive action!"


The professor put down his bucket and replied with a smile,
"Congratulations! You now understand the stimulus bill."

[egneg]

Dr Jet that is the best analogy I have heard yet!

[Bill-SOCAL]

Bill... you might want to read the whole thing in context... I know... you libs have a problem doing that, but Dr. Jet got it, and likely, if you try hard enough, you can too... :tt2:


OK. Douggie says that governments around the world are throwing money at the problem and you responded "No they are not".

What "context" did I miss??


And can we dispense with the labels? I know that labeling a person as a liberal in your eyes is meaningful, but all it really does is confirm the dogmatic foundation of your response.

[Bill-SOCAL]

Bill,

What are the Chinese doing? BUILDING INFRASTRUCTURE.



Uh, OK. The stimulus package you despise so much is targeted towards rebuilding infrastructure, so I guess I don't get what your point is.


Mr Obama said that he would make “the single largest investment in our national infrastructure” since the 1950s highway programme. The plan is expected to include spending on electrical grids, public transport, dams and investment in alternative fuels. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5303652.ece

Now it is true that it will be a drop in the bucket compared to what we really need in total for infrastructure, but at least it is something.

[Dr. Jet]

Dr Jet that is the best analogy I have heard yet!

It may have been closer to reality if they were using 55-gallon drums instead of buckets.:rofl:

[egneg]

It may have been closer to reality if they were using 55-gallon drums instead of buckets.:rofl:


The result is still the same no matter what they used!

[Flying Scotsman]

Lads, as a stubid Scot.
This discourse is not great. There are always two sides to a story or a poliltical viewpoint. For myself, I read as much on the issues from all camps and then make up my mind based on logic, history, etc.
It may be wrong but at least I listened to the other point of views and will change my perceived values on a discussion based on the structure of the response.

Douggie

[RCprince]

AIG: Billions Dished Out in the Dark

By Robert Scheer

This is crazy! Forget the bleating of Rush Limbaugh; the problem is not with the quite reasonable and, if anything, underfunded stimulus package, which in any case will be debated long and hard in Congress. The problem is with what is not being debated: the far more expensive Wall Street bailout that is being pushed through--as in the case of the latest AIG rescue--in secret, hurried deal-making primarily by the unelected secretary of the treasury and the chairman of the Federal Reserve.

Six months ago, we taxpayers began bailing out AIG with more than $140 billion, and then it went and lost $61.7 billion in the fourth quarter, more than any other company in history had ever lost in one quarter. So Timothy Geithner and Ben Bernanke huddled late into the night last weekend and decided to reward AIG for its startling failure with thirty billion more of our dollars. Plus, they sweetened the deal by letting AIG off the hook for interest it had been obligated to pay on the money we previously gave the company.

The rest of the story---------> http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090316/scheer

[Darin Jordan]

OK. Douggie says that governments around the world are throwing money at the problem and you responded "No they are not".

What "context" did I miss??



Bill... "Every Government" is NOT "Throwing" money at the problem... Some are actually letting you KEEP more of your money, and then targeting the rest...

You can't honestly say that this piece of pork is actually "targeted" at building infrastructure, can you? There are bits and pieces in there for that, but there is a whole lot more PORK, targeted at things that have NOTHING WHAT-so-EVER to do with stimulating ANYTHING...




And can we dispense with the labels? I know that labeling a person as a liberal in your eyes is meaningful, but all it really does is confirm the dogmatic foundation of your response.

Sure... what should we refer to the collective that supports your general belief structure and ideals then?? Just let me know and I'll refer to that instead...

[Bill-SOCAL]

Bill... "Every Government" is NOT "Throwing" money at the problem... Some are actually letting you KEEP more of your money, and then targeting the rest...

Which ones are those?? None that I could find. And as I pointed out, the new Chinese policy on capital gains tax does note affect their people who already pay none, but only foreign investors whom the Chinese economy depend heavily on.

But even China is seeing a huge influx of money from their government. SO I am at a loss to understand which governments you are talking about.




You can't honestly say that this piece of pork is actually "targeted" at building infrastructure, can you? There are bits and pieces in there for that, but there is a whole lot more PORK, targeted at things that have NOTHING WHAT-so-EVER to do with stimulating ANYTHING...

The problem is that you appear to define anything that is not a tax cut as "pork". The funding of projects in the stimulus bill are focused on spending money to fund programs and projects that will either directly employee people or aid them in finding work. You are OK with huge defense spending, that is not pork. But spend that on a social program, or a new road, or education, or health care, or anything besides a military hardware and then that becomes "pork" or wasteful.

[AndyKunz]

Uh, OK. The stimulus package you despise so much is targeted towards rebuilding infrastructure, so I guess I don't get what your point is.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5303652.ece

Now it is true that it will be a drop in the bucket compared to what we really need in total for infrastructure, but at least it is something.

The bulk of the package is wasted money, that's my point. Establishing a healthcare bureaucracy is not building infrastructure.

Referring to this pie chart (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/stimulus-pie-chart/)

Working CCW from the top:

4B to increase law enforcement (Brown Shirts?)
Medicaid 87B
Food Stamps 20B
Healthcare 39B
Increased unemployment benefits 43B
Preventative care 4.1B
Health Bureaucracy 20B
Higher education "modernization" 6B (improved indoctrination?)
Pell grants 15.6B (actually, that's not a bad idea)
State fiscal relief 79B (for those states who are insolvent for doing what the Feds are doing?!?!?)
Local School Districts 41B (to force more indoctrination on our kids?!?!)
Transit and rail 10B
Clean water, flood control, enviro restoration 19B
Federal and other infrastructure 31B
Highway construction 30B
Expand broadband Internet access 6B ****
Science facilities, research, instrumentation 10B
Weatherize modest-income homes 6B (I have a modest income, but pay my own house bills, thank you)
Make key energy efficiency retrofits 16B ?!?!
Transform the nations' energy, distribution, and production systems 32B (and they complained about "corporate welfare" for Haliburton!?!?)
Tax cuts 275B (cuts or rebates?)
*** "???" 31.3B *** How come they don't know???



OK, so looking at that list I only see a handful of reasonable things for them to spend money on (the non-bold items). The rest is wasted money - welfare for individuals, for corporations (rail, Internet, and energy).

Andy

[Flying Scotsman]

My goodness. Americans, the problem is GLOBAL and what the USA tries to do may not fix the disease.

Douggie

[Flying Scotsman]

Darin, and all other Americans, do you feel safe in your current job and financial position.

Douggie

[RCprince]

I can hunt, catch fish, farm, build a log cabin... all I need is fresh water and the 2nd amendment.

[AndyKunz]

Darin, and all other Americans, do you feel safe in your current job and financial position.

Yes. On the way to the bank this morning (buying a house).

Andy

[Dr. Jet]

Darin, and all other Americans, do you feel safe in your current job and financial position.

Douggie

Yes, and no.

Yes, because I work on large-scale civil engineering projects that are years (or even decades) in design/construction. Currently I am involved with the design and construction management of raising the San Vicente Dam (an old WPA project) by 120 feet, and a pump/generating project that pumps water between two reservoirs (lakes actually). The Porkulus plan may actually have some funding for projects of this nature, but I would not bet on it.

No, because the source of funds for these projects may dry up. These are multi-million dollar projects (approaching billions), and as tax rates go up, revenues go down. That is something those on the left don't understand. Increasing tax rates does not correlate directly to increased revenue.

Look at history: Truman cut tax rates, revenues went up. Kennedy cut tax rates, revenues went up. Reagan cut tax rates, revenues went up. Bush cut tax rates, revenues went up. Carter increased taxes, revenues went down. The "dot com" boom happened during the Clinton years so revenues went up in spite of the increased tax rate.

The idea of "paying for tax cuts" assumes the economic "pie" is static. It is not. Reducing taxes on an activity, increases that activity. What would be the best for the government? Taxing an activity by 95% or 10%? Would you invest in something where you know the government is going to take almost ALL your profit? I doubt it; but if they only took a small chunk, you would be more inclined to invest the time and money (risk) in that activity.

Taxing an activity REDUCES the amount of that activity. Increase Capital Gains taxes, you get less investment. Increase income taxes, people will find a way to hide or reduce income. I have heard from several people that make over $250K per year that they are taking steps to reduce their income to avoid the confiscatory Obama taxes.

One last thought: Does anyone remember what the Clinton Campaign slogan was? Has anyone on the Left resurrected that slogan? Now that the Left is in charge, it no longer applies?

"It's the economy, stupid!"