UL power plant

[ice329]

Can people who have the UL and ran both the SV power plant and the UL, tell me what and how much of a differnce you think there is... is the UL's as torky as the SV's etc How about efficiantcy etc. Thanks

[sailr]

There is a TON of difference in the SV27 and UL-1 motors. The UL-1 motor puts out a LOT more power. There is a big argument going on in the LSH tech class about it. I personally object to people putting the UL-1 motor in their boat and saying it's the same as a SV27! Not fair.

[Darin Jordan]

There is a TON of difference in the SV27 and UL-1 motors. The UL-1 motor puts out a LOT more power. There is a big argument going on in the LSH tech class about it. I personally object to people putting the UL-1 motor in their boat and saying it's the same as a SV27! Not fair.


This is actually NOT true... it doesn't put out "more power"... it puts out similiar power in a different way.

The Higher KV comes at a price. I've load tested the UL1, BJ26, SV27, and HiMax 3630-1500 motor (basically the same as the BJ26) on a test bench, recording amps, thrust (with a given airplane prop), watts, etc...

Using the SV27 and UL1 motors, with the same load, the UL1 motor pulls 39-amps and drops down 4800 RPM over it's unloaded RPM, compared to only 26-amps and a drop of only 1569 RPM for the SV27 motor, again, using the exact same load and battery setup. This should tell you that the SV27 motor can take a LOT more prop before it reaches it's amp limit, while the UL1 motor is already approaching it's...

I think what you'll find is that there are some applications where the SV27 motor would actually have an advantage, and others where the UL1 motor would be preferred.

If you have a light hull that likes a smaller prop spinning fast, then the UL1 would work well. If you have a larger, or heavier hull, that can handle the torque and a larger prop, you might have an advantage with the SV27 or ProBoat BJ26 setup...

[sailr]

Obviously the lower KV motor in the SV27 will handle a bit bigger prop. Appreciate your tests. Very interesting. My observations were in practical application in the boats.

[ice329]

Lets take the TS2 similer to like we all built with the SV motor on a outboard would the TS2 benifit from the UL motor. Maybe this was a better question.

[sailr]

Outboard applications require smaller props so in that case, the UL motor might be better. The only reason I have ever figured out the leeetle props on outboards is the extra drag of the small radius in the bend of the flexshaft. Not sure.

[sailr]

Darin,
Isn't the UL-1 motor a 4 pole as opposed to 2 pole in the SV27? Seems like I read that but could be wrong.


This is actually NOT true... it doesn't put out "more power"... it puts out similiar power in a different way.

The Higher KV comes at a price. I've load tested the UL1, BJ26, SV27, and HiMax 3630-1500 motor (basically the same as the BJ26) on a test bench, recording amps, thrust (with a given airplane prop), watts, etc...

Using the SV27 and UL1 motors, with the same load, the UL1 motor pulls 39-amps and drops down 4800 RPM over it's unloaded RPM, compared to only 26-amps and a drop of only 1569 RPM for the SV27 motor, again, using the exact same load and battery setup. This should tell you that the SV27 motor can take a LOT more prop before it reaches it's amp limit, while the UL1 motor is already approaching it's...

I think what you'll find is that there are some applications where the SV27 motor would actually have an advantage, and others where the UL1 motor would be preferred.

If you have a light hull that likes a smaller prop spinning fast, then the UL1 would work well. If you have a larger, or heavier hull, that can handle the torque and a larger prop, you might have an advantage with the SV27 or ProBoat BJ26 setup...

[Darin Jordan]

Darin,
Isn't the UL-1 motor a 4 pole as opposed to 2 pole in the SV27? Seems like I read that but could be wrong.

No... they are both 6-pole motors...

As for the outboards... we run props up to X447s, X646's, and Prather 230s on our OPC tunnels... The FE motors require WAY more prop than the Nitro guys can run...

I agree that the UL-1 motor may be a better choice for Sport Hydros, Riggers... The jury is still out on the OPC tunnels and Monos...

For example, I run a 42mm prop on my SV27 powered OPC, but it's pitched WAY up, and started life as an X645...

Another summer of play and we'll have it all figured out... just in time for a new offering to emerge! ;)

[detox]

Thanks Darin, The SV27 motor/esc does seem to hold up better to larger props such as a 2047 in my Rigger Insanity. I have already destroyed one UL1 esc (swollen cap) swinging a detunged x645 in my UL-1.

I may try the SV 27 motor/esc combo in my UL-1 next.




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[Rumdog]

Have you ever done any testing with the Ammo motors? I purchased a ammo 38-56 2600kv. gonna give it a whirl in my UL-1 this spring.

[ice329]

I guess someone has to put 2 exactly the same boats side by side on the water with the same prop and see which one is faster.

[Fluid]

I guess someone has to put 2 exactly the same boats side by side on the water with the same prop and see which one is faster.
That test would not prove which is 'faster', it would be a waste of time. One motor may need a smaller diameter prop but can handle more pitch at a higher rpm - the other motor may be able to swing a lot of blade area but with less pitch and at a slower rpm. You would need to test different props on each motor in the same boat to find the one with the fastest top speed.

An example - the top two P Sport Hydros in our club are equally fast, one runs a Neu 1515/1Y and the other a Hacker 9XL - very different motors. They use different props, but their performance is almost identical.

Remember that the fastest top speed is not all that we are worried about. If the SV motor needed a 47mm prop to be the fastest, that may cause handling issues that the boat can't overcome. Then it could all be different in another hull type. It is not as simple as a direct side-by-side comparison.


.

[sailr]

I try to find the best 'compromise' prop and then 'tweek' the strut depth and angle, CG, etc. to get the best running attitude of the boat. Highest speed is not always the answer! You may be fast as hell but the boat is uncontrollable so what's the point? You may have a docile boat but the speed sucks....so, once again, what's the point?

There is a lot more than JUST props that go into making a competitive racing boat but it's certainly the best place to start.

[Darin Jordan]

There is a lot more than JUST props that go into making a competitive racing boat but it's certainly the best place to start.

I'd say exactly the opposite... It ALL comes down to the prop!

We could all throw a 2047 on a UL1... but I'm guessing maybe 2 or 3 of those that try would get the boat anywhere NEAR 63mph...

[sailr]

You totally misunderstood my post! I'm surprised by your response. PROPS ARE CRITICAL but not the ENTIRE solution! If you're going for SAW's, that's one thing. If you want to win races, that's another entirely.

[ice329]

The problem is no one is answering this question. will the UL motor and ESC be a hotter choice then the SV plant in the TS2 with a outboard. Small water looking to be quick fast running the hull to the limit. SV set up ot Ul setup. Changing props or whatever. Anyway... I am just gonna put the SV plant back.

[sailr]

Joey, not many of us here with OB experience. Maybe another forum?

[Darin Jordan]

The problem is no one is answering this question.

I think we actually did... There isn't a real "answer" to this question. I think that the UL1 motor would work well within it's limits and with the right prop, and I think the SV27 would work well within it's limits and with the right prop. Which one works "better" is really going to depend. I don't think anyone has enough experience with them yet to know for sure, and, as sailr has eluded to, there are other factors involved...

I can tell you that on a typical, well balanced 28-30" P-OPC tunnel, where you can really only fit in 4S1P (tough to fit 4S2P in these things), that the hotter UL1 motor and limited battery capacity is going to require a good setup to keep things within the limits. As I said before, the UL1 motor starts pulling some serious amps as the loads increase and the question becomes CAN you get enough prop on an SV27 motor to where it's below it's limits and has the pitch to achieve the same or better speeds before the UL1 maxes itself out and can't take anymore prop... It may be that by the time you get there, but SV27 prop is so big that the boat no longer handles... Then again, maybe not.

I regularly run Prather 235 or Octura X646 props on my SV27 powered OPC, and it's fast down the straights, but corning becomes iffy... I finish races, but it's only through some careful work in the turns...

We'll find out more this season, but I feel at this point like the two motors can compete with one-another with the right setups... I don't know that one will DEFINATELY be faster than the other in the end. It's going to come down to setup and application and how well you can drive...



You totally misunderstood my post! I'm surprised by your response. PROPS ARE CRITICAL but not the ENTIRE solution! If you're going for SAW's, that's one thing. If you want to win races, that's another entirely.

I did not misunderstand... but I did assume all-else being equal... And I don't think it matters SAWS or Oval... racing is racing... But you can shapen and blue-print and tweak a hull and everything else as much as you want, once all that is correct, you'll still get the biggest improvement in both handling and speed by getting the prop right...

All assuming you drive smartly and can finish heats, of course...
:thumbup1:

[sailr]

Darin, granted, the right prop is still the biggest factor. We're on the same page just speaking a different language! ;-)

[Rumdog]

I get waht you guys are sying about the comprimise between handling and top speed. with the ammo 2600, i was thinking just s.a.w. speed. i'm assuming i'll lose some torque with the highter kv rating, so i'll surely prop down a bit to start.

[properchopper]

The problem is no one is answering this question. will the UL motor and ESC be a hotter choice then the SV plant in the TS2 with a outboard. Small water looking to be quick fast running the hull to the limit. SV set up ot Ul setup. Changing props or whatever. Anyway... I am just gonna put the SV plant back.

Joey, I hear where you're coming from and perhaps this might help. My stock TS-2 with the SV 27 powerplant and an X442 ran great. Won my class at WW IV with it. Sometimes afterward, I tried the Ammo 36-50 2300 with an X437. Fast, but didn't hold the turns well & set the SC on fire. I think the SV combo is best for your setup; Listen to Darin. He & his amigos trim the cav plate off & swing bigger props for acceleration & decent straightline speed. Also, FWIW I'm running the UL-1 motor & a CC80 in my 29" mono LSO rig with a very S&B P220 & It'll go 4 + minutes for LSO with OK temps and reasonable speed. [ LSO is more of an endurance race as opposed to oval.] Tried a M445 & temps were going up past the three minute mark [ and the torque/propwalk of the bigger prop screwed up the left-turning ability so I'm sticking with less speed but more reliability. :biggrin:

[Flying Scotsman]

and the torque/propwalk of the bigger prop screwed up the left-turning ability so I'm sticking with less speed but more reliability


Tony, on the button

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

Also, FWIW I'm running the UL-1 motor & a CC80 in my 29" mono LSO rig with a very S&B P220 & It'll go 4 + minutes for LSO with OK temps and reasonable speed. [ LSO is more of an endurance race as opposed to oval.] Tried a M445 & temps were going up past the three minute mark [ and the torque/propwalk of the bigger prop screwed up the left-turning ability so I'm sticking with less speed but more reliability. :biggrin:

This pretty much confirms what I suspect is going to be the case...

In my LSO setup, using the SV27 motor in a DarkHorse 26 Mono, I can pull a prather 230 or 235, or an X646 and still have safe temps... using the SV27 ESC as well... Granted... those props had some work done to them, but handling wasn't an issue... maybe it would be different on a Cat...

Tony, did you GPS any of those setups???

[properchopper]

Tony, did you GPS any of those setups???

Nope. With the M445 it was pushing 40, but with the P220 I'm fairly sure it was somewhere around 36-38 mph. Even with propping down, I needed to put in a high torque servo to swing the cut-down .21 Speedmaster rudder for left turns.
Another thing as well, the boat, a Titan 29 which runs fairly aired out, needed the batteries way over to port to keep torque from leaning the boat over. When it was rigged for P-Mono with a 9XL, an X442 was just great, but a little too slow hooked to the UL-1 motor [ go figure]

[Darin Jordan]

Nope. With the M445 it was pushing 40, but with the P220 I'm fairly sure it was somewhere around 36-38 mph. Even with propping down, I needed to put in a high torque servo to swing the cut-down .21 Speedmaster rudder for left turns.
Another thing as well, the boat, a Titan 29 which runs fairly aired out, needed the batteries way over to port to keep torque from leaning the boat over. When it was rigged for P-Mono with a 9XL, an X442 was just great, but a little too slow hooked to the UL-1 motor [ go figure]

Interesting...

Now, by way of comparison, my 26" DH Mono, with an SV27 power system and 4S1P 5000mah Poly RCs, running a Prather 235, ran 43mph consistently, with temps hovering around 125 or so on the motor, and about the same on the ESC... Batteries were just warm... Cornered very well, and just flew down the straights... BUT... I had to tweak the hull some to get it to run that way, as these boats typically run light... A little more turn fin also helped to keep it planted in the turn. Props were tweaked to get rid of some of the lift, and free things up in the lower thrust portion of the prop (backcut, cupped, detounged, thinned, etc...)

Goes back to the "old saying"... it's all in the Setup! ;)

NOW, I would NOT have been able to run that setup at Lake Minden, for instance... water had way too much mineral content and things would have had to been prop'd down a bit...

[detox]

If I DID try running the SV motor/esc combo in the UL-1 hull...do you think a large 3 blade prop would handle better than a large 2 blade prop in the turns? What would be a good 3 blade prop to use that would help sponsons run a little wetter for best handling and fastest speed using the SV motor/esc?

[Flying Scotsman]

Keith, I have not run my UL-! due to weather, but I will try a Y537/3, which is contrary to your question. It is just a prop I like...the proof will be in the pudding

Douggie

[detox]

Thanks Douggie, I have lots of props, but little time to test.

BTW...I like your avatar.



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