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RCprince
02-27-2009, 03:34 AM
http://www.gadling.com/media/2007/07/healthcareworldbig.jpg


http://www.gadling.com/2007/07/05/what-countries-have-universal-health-care/

Steven Vaccaro
02-27-2009, 07:36 AM
Oh boy! I feel another heated topic coming!

Dr. Jet
02-27-2009, 09:28 AM
And just where do the "Wealthy" people from those blue countries go when they need a heart transplant or some other complicated medical procedure? I can tell you they don't go to Cuba. And how many of the poor schmucks in the blue countries have to wait for weeks/months for medical attention; or worse yet, get told they are too old and the procedure isn't cost-effective for someone their age?

Government isn't the solution, it's the PROBLEM.

AndyKunz
02-27-2009, 09:47 AM
I can tell you they don't go to Cuba.

Did you see An American Carol? That Cuba scene was so funny. Unfortunately, it's based on reality.


Government isn't the solution, it's the PROBLEM.

A certain amount of government is good. Excess government is the problem.

Remember, the Anarchists want anarchy so they can have "change" and install a socialist/communist government at the first crisis.

Rahm Emanuel: “Never Allow a Crisis to Go to Waste”

Andy

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 10:29 AM
It's funny, but Republicans have no issue at all with the Gubbermint doing some things and will fund them to the max. They have no issue with paying $2.2 BILLION per B-2, but health care for all of us, nope, won't have any part of that.

And again, coming back to my religious theme, why is it so many hard right people profess to be God-Fearin' folk, but abandon the teachings of Jesus when it suits them?

Jesus said:


Whatever you do for the least of these my brothers, you do it for me. (Matthew 25:40)

I would rather see my money go to keep our people healthy than go to keeping defense contractors healthy. After all, it is exactly what Jesus would do.

Steven Vaccaro
02-27-2009, 10:46 AM
It's funny, but Republicans have no issue at all with the Gubbermint doing some things and will fund them to the max. They have no issue with paying $2.2 BILLION per B-2, but health care for all of us, nope, won't have any part of that.

And again, coming back to my religious theme, why is it so many hard right people profess to be God-Fearin' folk, but abandon the teachings of Jesus when it suits them?

Jesus said:



I would rather see my money go to keep our people healthy than go to keeping defense contractors healthy. After all, it is exactly what Jesus would do.

I'd like to see a balance. I personally don't want to disarm, for the simple fact that there are still nations out there that would love to kill us all.

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 11:07 AM
Sadly the US has been unable to readjust to the threats of a post Cold War World. I sincerely doubt that more strategic bombers or anti-missile satellites are going to increase our national security.

Keep in mind that the single greatest loss of life on US soil was done by 19 guys with box cutters.

I wonder how much body armor and properly armored HumVees $2.2 BILLION would buy??

As far as balance goes, the US is projected to spend about $741 billion on defense in 2009. To put that in perspective it is:

12 times more than education spending
14 times more than health care spending
67 times more than Medicare and Social Security spending

Put another way, defense spending is about 54% of the total discretionary US budget. Health and education combined are only 11.5%

So it seems that maybe, just maybe, there might be some room to work in a little more "balance".

Dr. Jet
02-27-2009, 12:07 PM
Providing for the common defense IS specifically mentioned in the Constitution, and is spelled-out as a primary function and responsibility of the Federal Government. Providing for public healthcare isn't in the Constitution, nor is public education, universal healthcare or Social Security.

I want my tax dollars going for that B-2 bomber. I don't want to pay for some illegal alien's in-vitro fertilization procedure, your retirement plan (if you were irresponsible enough not to create one for yourself), or your government-sponsored (and thereby government-approved) "education" (indoctrination would be more appropriate here - listen to SoCal Bill for examples of that indoctrination).

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 12:28 PM
Yes Bill, we all know your xenophobic fear of illegal aliens. But the fact is that it is your fellow citizens who are the ones who would benefit most from access to health care.

And if you want to use the Constitution as a defense for your ideas you might want stop cherry picking only the phrases that support your ideas.

From the Preamble:


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

So I suggest to you that insuring that ALL citizens can get health care is the very definition of "General Welfare". And then lets consider the meaning of "Domestic Tranquility". Having health care available only to those rich enough to afford it is unlikely to contribute to that either.

Simon.O.
02-27-2009, 01:06 PM
We have two types of health care here.
All accident and emergency care including hospital stays and surgury are all free.
Not quite free as I pay my taxes and an additional levy(tax) is slotted in there to cover all these costs.
Visits to the local doctor cost me, I believe those on welfare get is a lot cheaper.
Dentists are thieveing sh1tbags who I avoid If I can.
My wife has private healthcare cover which can and will cover a lot of costs.

Last year I spent 2 weeks in hospital and have no real complaints with our system.
There are waiting lists for certain things. My mother in law is waiting for a cataract removal.

Bottom line is we have the choice to go with the public or use private healthcare and pay for it. You still get to pay the levy that covers the public system.
So private healthcare for me is out.

Doby
02-27-2009, 01:15 PM
Doesn't "General Welfare" mean paying to keep unemployed people to stay at home?
Or am I reading this incorrectly:bounce:

ghostofpf1
02-27-2009, 01:32 PM
Any one else find it ironic that according to the chart we are funding UHC for Iraq and Afghanistan yet we have people dying in the streets here in our own country due to lack of that same health care...:thumbsdown:

Steve

Steven Vaccaro
02-27-2009, 01:38 PM
I would be interested to know how much of our tax dollars goes to making sure we stay in good terms other countries each year?

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 01:51 PM
It doesn't work ANYWHERE else...

Only a bunch of MORONS would think that it would THEREFORE work HERE...

Same deal can be said about the Porkulous bill, and basically NATIONALIZATION in general... None of it has been shown to work ANYWHERE else in the world... Example after example after example of the failures of these policies and strategies exist over the past 100-years...

When Vladimir Putin comes out and suggests to the USA to NOT go down this road becuase it doesn't work... (just look at where it got the USSR...) MAYBE, JUST MAYBE... someone ought to stop and think about what we are doing...

Or are we all just too stupid or too good to learn from the mistakes of others??

RCprince
02-27-2009, 01:53 PM
I
And again, coming back to my religious theme, why is it so many hard right people profess to be God-Fearin' folk, but abandon the teachings of Jesus when it suits them?

Jesus said:



I would rather see my money go to keep our people healthy than go to keeping defense contractors healthy. After all, it is exactly what Jesus would do.



Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most respected leaders of modern history. A Hindu, Ghandi nevertheless admired Jesus and often quoted from the Sermon on the Mount. Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, "Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?"

Ghandi replied, "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 01:56 PM
The estimated 2009 US Foreign Aid total is $26 billion, or 2.6% of the total budget. The total discretionary budget for FY 09 was $997 billion.

74% goes to defense and military spending and does NOT include the costs of the 2 wars we have going on.

The next largest budget item is Education, at $61.2 billion, or 6.2%

The last country to go so wildly out of proportion on defense spending was the Soviet Union, which is one of the major reasons their country collapsed.

RCprince
02-27-2009, 02:02 PM
Capitalism with out the reigns of Socialism is Exploitation.

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 02:05 PM
The next largest budget item is Education, at $61.2 billion, or 6.2%



Education costs are generally handled by the States... The Federal govenment does NOT need to be involved there... it's screwed up enough already...




The last country to go so wildly out of proportion on defense spending was the Soviet Union, which is one of the major reasons their country collapsed.

"Major Reasons"??? Couldn't have had anything to do with the rediculous "collective" ideas, Nationalization of everything, and stupid ideas about "Centralized Control"???

"Defense Spending" employs MILLIONS of people, breeds new technology, and creates entire new industries. You want something more fuel efficient... find a military need for it and then get it contracted...

Not to mention the fact that is gives us the capability to be SAFE from all the ideological idiots out there who want to destroy us simply because we exist...

There is a reason why these people have had to resort to "terrorism" or "gorilla" warfare tactics against us... I think we all know what would happen if China or even Russia thought we wouldn't be able to respond to an air assault, or even a Naval assault...

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 02:06 PM
Capitalism with out the reigns of Socialism is Exploitation.


That's a total Crock...

Socialism is pure exploitation of those who work, to benefit those who don't...

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 02:17 PM
Well Darin, most states cannot fund their education systems without federal dollars. If they did then either they would need to significantly reduce what they do or significantly increase state revenues. So while I understand your philosophical point, it has no bearing on the fact of the allocation of federal funds.

The burden of military spending that the soviet economy suffered under is widely recognized as a major contributing factor to their collapse.

As far as the jobs defense spending creates, is it your argument that if that money was allocated differently, like say to the development of alternative means of energy production, etc., that there would be no jobs in those sectors created by a huge influx of money? So if it is not spent on the military then the money is lost and there will be no job?

And I am not saying to stop military spending. But I think we can spend less, use it more wisely and still provide for our national security. Or is it your thinking that only spending in huge amounts will keep us safe??

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 02:22 PM
That's a total Crock...

Socialism is pure exploitation of those who work, to benefit those who don't...

And capitalism is widely viewed as the exploitation of those who work to the benefit of those who own the means of production.

And I think you clearly do not understand what socialism is, but simply respond to the concept based on your fears and its association with the Soviet Union and other communist countries.

Again, go back to the Preamble. It CLEARLY defines the idea of the common good, which is exactly what socialism is built upon, the common good, not just the good of the rich.

Here is a good definition of socialism:


Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 02:31 PM
Here is a good definition of socialism: and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.


We all have equal opportunity Bill... Some of us will make it, others won't... You can't LEGISLATE equality... Nature doesn't work that way... either can our govenment. Each of us has our own special talents, and our own shortcomings.... The Federal Goverment trying to ignore that fact isn't going to get us anywhere.

We ALL have the opportunities, however... What we do with those is up to us... and that's the way it should be...

It's not going to be, however, is it, Bill??? Nope... You and I are going to continue to work our asses off, and THEY are going to take those fruits, and hand it out to those who don't, can't, or won't...

I have NO Problem helping out those who can't... but those who don't or won't... They are on their own. You reep what you sow...

RCprince
02-27-2009, 02:33 PM
That's a total Crock...

Socialism is pure exploitation of those who work, to benefit those who don't...

And Capitalism unbridled is exploitation of the poor... I wonder how many people making minimum wage could afford a decent home for themselves, heathcare, food, et'al.

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 02:33 PM
A Scottish/Canadian reply.
As one who has witnesed 2 different public health care systems. They do have their faults...lengthy wait times for surgery, but you can see a doctor and not pay through the nose for that privilege, you will not be turned away from a hospital, even if you are not a citizen of that country and have no travel insurrance. As to the best doctors only reside in the USA that is knowsense...first heart transplant, South Africa, etc. etc.
The doctors who want to make a lot of money, do reside in the USA. Are they more skilled, I doubt it?

Douggie

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 02:37 PM
And Capitalism is exploitation of the poor... I wonder how many people making minimum wage could afford a decent home for themselves, heathcare, food, et'al.

HOW about those people doing what the rest of us have had to do and work our freaking butts off to get ourselves through school and get decent jobs?? There IS opportunity out there for them to do that... I did it, my brother did it, my friends have done it... my co-workers have done it...

What you and Bill are proving is that I'm totally CORRECT... the answer is in the middle... Capitalism with sensible oversight...

NOT at ALL what the new lord and saviour and his band of hench-men/women is promoting or pushing through...

Well... guess what... after a time, when you keep robbing Peter to subsidize Paul... Peter eventually runs out of money and then they are both up a creek...

Great Plan! Going to be fun to watch...:olleyes:

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 02:40 PM
We all have equal opportunity Bill...
Snip

We ALL have the opportunities, however...

You need to get out more. Spend some time in the poorest areas of this country, or in the inner city. If you do I cannot conceive of how you could say this. By accident of birth many of us have far greater opportunity for success than do many others. But we incorporate the concept that we all have equal opportunity into our thinking as if it is a reality. Sadly, it is not.

Unless you want to argue that they deserve what they are getting because their parents "failed" to take advantage of the "equal" opportunities offered to them.



I have NO Problem helping out those who can't... but those who don't or won't... They are on their own.

How do you determine the difference??

Are people poor because they are too lazy to work?? Do people have no health insurance because they are too lazy to get a job where it is offered??

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 02:51 PM
Darin, please explain a socialist viewpoint. I do not think the democratic party in the USA, the liberal party in Canada subscribe to that definition.
Douggie

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 02:56 PM
Lets look at the myth of health care in the US as being the "best" in the world.

Take for example infant mortality rates. The US is ranked 163 out of 195 countries. 32 countries do better than we do. So we are not No. 1 there. Places like Cuba, Britain, Canada, Hong Kong, etc. all do better than us.

What about life expectancy? Well, we are #45 out of 221.

SO using these two key indicators it seems a little difficult to argue that we have the "best" health care in the world. If we do why don't we live the longest, or have the fewest infant deaths? I am not saying it is bad here by any means, but there are places where health care clearly is having better results.


One place we are No. 1 is in per capita costs for health care. But we are not getting much bang for our bucks which I think clearly shows that the system we have now is not the "best" it could be.

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 03:02 PM
Are people poor because they are too lazy to work?? Do people have no health insurance because they are too lazy to get a job where it is offered??

I just love the way you Liberals take the exceptions and try to make them the norm...

I have friends whose families migrated here from Russia... legally I might add... because of the oppression and poor conditions... with NOTHING... and have built lives for themselves...

Americans... from the midwest... left their harsh conditions during the dust-bowl years during the dust-bowl years and started new lives for themselves...

Did all of them make it? Nope...

I said before that I had no problem helping those who simply can't help themselves... You know how you tell the difference??? You provide them an opportunity and see what they do with it... McDonald's isn't meant to be a career... but it's a start... what you do with it after that, is really up to you...

Simply handing out $$$$ isn't going to make the situations you describe any better... and NOTHING in the Porkulous package is going to either... because that's all it's doing is providing welfare...

This conversation is rediculous and going nowhere... You guys cling to your ideals and your ways that have lead to failure time and time again... You'll figure it out eventually on your own. Just too bad you have to drag the rest of us down with you...

RCprince
02-27-2009, 03:02 PM
HOW about those people doing what the rest of us have had to do and work our freaking butts off to get ourselves through school and get decent jobs?? There IS opportunity out there for them to do that... I did it, my brother did it, my friends have done it... my co-workers have done it...

What you and Bill are proving is that I'm totally CORRECT... the answer is in the middle... Capitalism with sensible oversight...

NOT at ALL what the new lord and saviour and his band of hench-men/women is promoting or pushing through...

Well... guess what... after a time, when you keep robbing Peter to subsidize Paul... Peter eventually runs out of money and then they are both up a creek...

Great Plan! Going to be fun to watch...:olleyes:

Capitalist make their money off of whom? It benefits the capitalist to reinvest in the people who floats their boats. What happens to the Peters when Pauls runs out of money? I guess both Peter and Paul goes bust... or Peter might just hire some henchmen to to put Paul into servitude.

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 03:10 PM
Darin, the MILLIONS of people in this country who are poor and underprivileged are NOT the exceptions. Conservatives are the ones who love to point to the exceptions. Like the moron who just had 8 more babies. But by doing so it helps you to ignore the real pain and suffering that is going on right in your own backyard.

And nobody is talking about "simply handing out money". I am talking about not wanting to live in a country where people die simply because they cannot afford to stay alive!! Clearly you have no issues with that and even appear to have the idea that they somehow deserve it because they did not take advantage of all that was offered to them.

egneg
02-27-2009, 03:15 PM
We already pay for stupid people.

http://www.mahalo.com/Nadya_Suleman

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 04:18 PM
Clearly you have no issues with that and even appear to have the idea that they somehow deserve it because they did not take advantage of all that was offered to them.

If that's what you think I'm saying, then you are clearly entrenched in your own agenda and aren't listening to what I'm saying at all...

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Oh dear boys will be boys. It is time for people in the USA to wake up to the fact they are not the top dog anymore. You have created a huge financial mess based on the greed of corporate CEO's who looked no further than 6 months down the road to placate their shareholders who were keen for more revenue.
We, globally are in real trouble. China, now has huge monetary reserves. Guess what companies they will buy for a song or they face bankrupcy.

Douggie

RCprince
02-27-2009, 04:51 PM
Oh dear boys will be boys. It is time for people in the USA to wake up to the fact they are not the top dog anymore. You have created a huge financial mess based on the greed of corporate CEO's who looked no further than 6 months down the road to placate their shareholders who were keen for more revenue.
We, globally are in real trouble. China, now has huge monetary reserves. Guess what companies they will buy for a song or they face bankrupcy.

Douggie

Don't forget WAR. The Military Industrial Corporate Complex. Capitalist hire the military to exploited other nations... I've always wondered if the U.S. was really about policing, Why they never went neck to neck with China, North Korea or even Russia... I guess nothing for the profiteers to profit.

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 04:56 PM
War, Britain paid off its debt to Canada for the second world war..THIS YEAR

Douggie

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 05:02 PM
Just a little food for thought...

The deficit is currently 1.7-Trillion, and it took 8-years, 911, and two war-fronts to get it there...

Obama's "plan" will increase that deficit "just a little" to 3.7-Trillion JUST THIS YEAR... It will increase, according to his "plan", to over 7-trillion by the end of his term... This is according to his OWN budget... All while ENDING the war in Iraq, and hopefully not having to deal with any other type of crissis like 911 or Katrina or the Texas Storms... (of course, the Texas storms mostly affected white, affluent people, so they likely aren't a major concern to this administration anyhow... :olleyes: We certainly didn't hear anywhere near the outcries on the news about it... )

And what are we getting for this increase?? Is it aimed at helping the economy "recover"??? Hardly... You aren't going to do that with Universal Healthcare, bridges/roads, or studying pig odors... NONE of this will help...


Maybe we need to take back the pardons we've given to all those countries over the years, whose a$$es the US has saved through Military and UN actions, who owe us money from these efforts?? Or just quite contributing to the UN all together and let the rest of the World fend for itself???

Yah... a bunch of Capitalistic Pigs we sure are.... :olleyes:


This "crisis" as they are MAKING it with their constant barrage of doom and gloom, is largely being made worse by the direction they are going. It IS solvable with less money than they are trying to spend, if that money is targeted toward fixing it... It's not however, so here we are...

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 05:10 PM
Ah, now we see the problem..After the second world war what American intervention was not done without a political or monetary viewpoint? History 101 Darin

Douggie

RCprince
02-27-2009, 05:13 PM
Darin, your a funny guy... But I like debating with you, you write well and you hold firm, which doesn't mean your right though.:smile: Obama's plan is to replace the monies BUSH(Bankrupt United States.Happens) allowed his cronies to reap of the backs of hard working Americans... in 8 BUSH has raided if not ALL of the American Peoples retirement savings.

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 05:14 PM
Ah, now we see the problem..After the second world war what American intervention was not done without a political viewpoint? History 101 Darin

Douggie


I know my US History Douggie...

Remember your thoughts here the next time the UN goes to action, and the blood being spilled is American troops...

I think you guys need to get a little more detailed than just trying to cover everything under the term "politics"...

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 05:18 PM
...allowed his cronies to reap of the backs of hard working Americans... in 8 BUSH has raided if not ALL of the American Peoples retirement savings.

I don't know what you guys do for a living, but I feel I'm paid well for the hard work I do. That's what we do... we work, and get paid... The person/company providing me employment has every right to profit from my work... that's what they are paying me to be able to do. I produce, they sell, they get the profits, they pay me more...

I went to school, got a job, went to more school, got a better job... that's how life works...

And... my taxes (Federal) are lower today than they were 8-years ago, so the only thing Obama's plan is going to do is change that to make me pay more taxes, get paid less for my job, and perhaps put people out of work all together... Unless you are a government employee... in Medical, or a teacher... But then, all three of those are actually covered under "government employees" now, aren't they...

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 05:23 PM
Darin, the Canadian forces in Afgahistan have lost many souls. The Brits in Iraq. That comment" Remember your thoughts here the next time the UN goes to action, and the blood being spilled is American troops" is rubbish!!!

Douggie

Steven Vaccaro
02-27-2009, 05:31 PM
Bill I have family members working in the Massachusetts "welfare" system. Its amazing how many people are taken care of with our tax dollars that shouldn't be. I don't believe my tax dollars should be going to lazy people that keep having kids!

My retired father in law goes to the gym every other day around 12pm, he always sees a young guy in there working out. After a month or so they get friendly, so he asked the guy what he does for work. He says "I don't work, I'm on social security for disability". This guys in his thirties and working out with free weights on a regular basis. :banana:

My cousin's a recovering drug addict that also on the "social security disability".

What a system we have!! Mess up and our government will toss you some cash. Work hard and our government will take your cash from you! :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 05:39 PM
Steven, go back to my discourse on public health care. What is wrong with this picture.

Scottish/Canadian reply.
As one who has witnesed 2 different public health care systems. They do have their faults...lengthy wait times for surgery, but you can see a doctor and not pay through the nose for that privilege, you will not be turned away from a hospital, even if you are not a citizen of that country and have no travel insurrance. As to the best doctors only reside in the USA that is knowsense...first heart transplant, South Africa, etc. etc.
The doctors who want to make a lot of money, do reside in the USA. Are they more skilled, I doubt it?

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 05:40 PM
Darin, the Canadian forces in Afgahistan have lost many souls. The Brits in Iraq. That comment" Remember your thoughts here the next time the UN goes to action, and the blood being spilled is American troops" is rubbish!!!

Douggie


Douggie, the US, Canada, and the Brits... In my opinion, we are all brothers in arms... and these countries are NOT who I'm referring to.

Even so... by the numbers, the US has by FAR the largest forces of UN troops that get deployed to any of these conflicts, AND they take our money as well... If we pulled out of the UN, where would it be??? You going to rely on China to come to your aide??

It's not rubbish, it's simply fact... Your comments have been aimed at the US and our Government... and by God... I'm going to respond accordingly with that in mind...

Steven Vaccaro
02-27-2009, 05:48 PM
but you can see a doctor and not pay through the nose for that privilege, you will not be turned away from a hospital, even if you are not a citizen of that country and have no travel insurrance.


Lol

Ask the 20 million illegal aliens residing in the USA if they are turned away at hospitals! They are not, as a matter of fact, check the local emergency rooms around Boston, the waits are ridiculous! They are filled with people that will not pay a cent!!!

RCprince
02-27-2009, 05:51 PM
I don't know what you guys do for a living, but I feel I'm paid well for the hard work I do. That's what we do... we work, and get paid... The person/company providing me employment has every right to profit from my work... that's what they are paying me to be able to do. I produce, they sell, they get the profits, they pay me more...

I went to school, got a job, went to more school, got a better job... that's how life works...

And... my taxes (Federal) are lower today than they were 8-years ago, so the only thing Obama's plan is going to do is change that to make me pay more taxes, get paid less for my job, and perhaps put people out of work all together... Unless you are a government employee... in Medical, or a teacher... But then, all three of those are actually covered under "government employees" now, aren't they...

Darin, not all work is equal... not even one who works hard get a competitive salary, janitors work hard, but does it make the Principals who gets paid more, more important ? Maybe if the janitor didn't come to work and all the excrement starting backing up in the restrooms, or the school campus was impassible do to garbage, or the school started to deteriorate due to lack of up keep. The problem with capitalism is one of its covert tenets is classism.

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 05:57 PM
Just a little food for thought...

The deficit is currently 1.7-Trillion, and it took 8-years, 911, and two war-fronts to get it there...

Obama's "plan" will increase that deficit "just a little" to 3.7-Trillion JUST THIS YEAR... .

Of course you ignore the fact that Obama is actually accounting for the costs of the two wars. Something which Bush did not in his numbers. But that never bothered you.

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Darin, not all work is equal... not even one who works hard get a competitive salary, janitors work hard, but does it make the Principals who gets gets paid more, more important ?

If you are suggesting that that Janitor should make the same wage as a Software Engineer, then I just don't have time for this conversation... That's just rediculous...

News flash... we have "classes"... We have a normal distibution curve (does the Janitor know what that is???) of incomes and abilities and education levels and .... in this country. Be happy we have at least three... Some countries only have two... the ruling, and everyone else...

Now, does that mean I look down on the Janitor? Hell know... I've been there before... That IS an important job... But it doesn't take experience and long hours studying and student loans and major sacrifice to clean a toilet or mop a bathroom floor.... Sorry... don't mean to sound "classist" but it just doesn't... I've done it, I know...

Additionally... if push comes to shove... I can clean my own damn bathroom, AND develop the software... That comes from the fact that I've worked my way up to where I am, so I have the experience to do multiple tasks...

All of this adds up to why I get more pay than the Janitor, and NONE of it suggests that one job is more "important" than the other...

Dr. Jet
02-27-2009, 05:59 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The Jet Manifesto

Domestic

A. Taxes: Cut Federal Income Taxes by 2 percent per year over four years, for a minimum total of 8 percent over four years.
B. Size of Government: Reduce Federal Government Departments in size by 4 percent each year, for a total reduction of size by 16 percent over four years.
C. Welfare: Eliminate all public assistance for able-bodied recipients. Cut off all public assistance for immigrants for five years. After two years, repatriate those who are not working.
D. Foreign Companies: Immediately impose tariffs on cars and trucks owned by foreign entities, even if they’re manufactured in America. Double the taxes on all foreign-held real estate and investment instruments.
E. Illegal Aliens: Cause illegal aliens to build a wall between the United States and Mexico, and then, repatriate them. Pay them a one-time worker fee.
F. Military: Number One: Increase pay for active duty combat troops by 10 percent. Number Two: Fire any unmarried military person becoming pregnant while on active duty. Number Three: Combat Veterans receive preference over college grads in promotions. I prefer battle-tested officers in charge of our troops over university-educated MBAs.
G. Abortion: Make abortions illegal, except when the physical survival of the mother is threatened, to be determined by three medical doctors. Require Norplant for all women on welfare of childbearing age.
H. Sex Trades: Close all houses of sex and massage.
I. Drugs: Expand the DEA, while decriminalizing most drugs.
J. Corporate Media: Number One: eliminate all foreign ownership of any American media entity. Number Two: break up overly large conglomerates, like News Corporation.
K. Family: Encourage child bearing among tax paying citizens. Create a marriage incentive, through lower taxes for married heterosexual couples, and a government subsidy for each child conceived and carried to birth. Increase the subsidies for each year the couple remains married.
L. Incarcerated Illegal Aliens: Repatriate all illegal immigrants now incarcerated. Encourage all other illegals to self-repatriate through double taxation on wages and fines on employers.
M. Oil: Number One: Release Strategic Reserves. This will “burn” speculators in the pocketbook. Number Two: Drill here, drill now. Drill ANWR, drill offshore, drill oil shale, drill everywhere in the USA where there is oil. Encourage the construction of new transportation, refining, and distribution facilities.
N: Non Oil-Related Energy: Encourage new technologies (wind, solar, geothermal, tidal, hydrodynamic, whatever). Build nuke power plants everywhere feasible.

International

A. Iraq: Send in Iraqi troops to mop up pockets of resistance. Make Iraq pay with their oil for the cost of the war. Cordon off Sadr City, force all residents to leave, then go in and mop up all resistance fighters. Divide Iraq into three to four sectors; Sunni, Shiite, Kurd, and International. Next, remove all U.S. troops after above achieved.
B. Iran: Sanction, embargo, and mine their harbors. Nothing goes in, nothing comes out. If Iran continues to build nuclear weapons technologies, destroy their facilities (or encourage Israel to do so).
C. North Korea: Destroy their launching platforms, impose a Naval blockade on all goods coming in or out, except food.
D. Israel and Arab Entities: Give Israel four years to become self-sufficient. Cut off all foreign aid to all nations. If any Arab country attacks Israel with nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, our response will be a nuclear attack on that country.
E. China: 20 percent tariffs on all Chinese-made goods immediately; rising by 5 percent each year for each year China refuses to revalue their currency.
F. United Nations: Withdraw immediately. Remove all Diplomats and staff. Convert the United Nations building into housing for the working poor.
G. Mexico: Force Mexico to pay one barrel of oil for every illegal alien in the United States of America per month.
H. National Security. Let all Islamic countries know that any attack whatsoever on United States interests will be considered an act of war and our response will not exclude a nuclear attack against any nation financing or otherwise supporting radical Islam. Since radical Islam has no political boundaries, an appropriate response to Islamic jihad is to turn Mecca to glass.

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 06:02 PM
Of course you ignore the fact that Obama is actually accounting for the costs of the two wars. Something which Bush did not in his numbers. But that never bothered you.

BS... a deficit is a deficit...

And yes... Obama IS accounting for the cost of two wars... and counting on that cost extending INDEFINATELY through-out his term (terms, actually, as he's budgeted out through two terms)... He's padding his budget with those numbers so he can have us all marvel at the "cuts" in the buget that he'll "find" later... Nevermind that this funding was already slated to drop off over the next two years or so...

Fun with Numbers is a favorite Democratic passtime...

Oh, and by the way... this "budget" will grow the Federal government by 29% to the end of 2012... and 57% or so if he gets a second term... You simply can't DO that without raising EVERYONE's taxes and considerably! They've flat-out lied to you... and you support them fully... :confused: :bowdown:

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 06:08 PM
Quote from Steven

"Ask the 20 million illegal aliens residing in the USA if they are turned away at hospitals! They are not, as a matter of fact, check the local emergency rooms around Boston, the waits are ridiculous! They are filled with people that will not pay a cent"

Steven, try that if you do not have USA documentation.

Douggie

Flying Scotsman
02-27-2009, 06:59 PM
Wake up America, your job may be gone and no private health insurance benefits.

Douggie

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 07:30 PM
BS... a deficit is a deficit...

Oh, OK, I get it. It matters not that Bush lied doing his budgets to make the deficit look smaller, it's Obama who is the bad guy.



You simply can't DO that without raising EVERYONE's taxes and considerably! They've flat-out lied to you... and you support them fully... :confused: :bowdown:

Not sure how that is. In the budget outline released yesterday he held to his promise of lowering taxes on people who make less than $250K per year. Everyone else will see their taxes go down. Based on your fervent rants about taxes going up I assume that you are in that top 5% over $250K, and that sucks. Fortunately you have to be making more than about $650K before the really large increases kick in, so I hope you are not in that group.

RCprince
02-27-2009, 07:32 PM
If you are suggesting that that Janitor should make the same wage as a Software Engineer, then I just don't have time for this conversation... That's just rediculous...

News flash... we have "classes"... We have a normal distibution curve (does the Janitor know what that is???) of incomes and abilities and education levels and .... in this country. Be happy we have at least three... Some countries only have two... the ruling, and everyone else...

Now, does that mean I look down on the Janitor? Hell know... I've been there before... That IS an important job... But it doesn't take experience and long hours studying and student loans and major sacrifice to clean a toilet or mop a bathroom floor.... Sorry... don't mean to sound "classist" but it just doesn't... I've done it, I know...

Additionally... if push comes to shove... I can clean my own damn bathroom, AND develop the software... That comes from the fact that I've worked my way up to where I am, so I have the experience to do multiple tasks...

All of this adds up to why I get more pay than the Janitor, and NONE of it suggests that one job is more "important" than the other...


Actually no, but the janitor should be able to afford a home like the S.E. to call his own like the S.E.

Bill-SOCAL
02-27-2009, 07:38 PM
I live in an area with a fairly large Latino population, especially just south of me in San Juan Capistrano. What really interests me is how many white folks you see at the local free clinic. My wife works for the hospital that runs it, and they have always had a fair number of non-Latino patients and the number has shot up recently.

As far as the emergency room goes, I've been twice in the last 2 years. Both times I had pretty good wait times in excess of 2 hours. Neither time was there anything other than a bunch of white folks just like me. I guess none of the Latinos got hurt the days I did.

This xenophobic hysteria about illegal immigrants is just silly. What I really love is that one of the largest employers of non-White Latinos around me is a huge landscape company. He lives in a mega mansion (I've been there) and goes to parties in a limo so he can drink like a fish (very responsible of him actually). This all the while that his workers have to go to the free clinic since he refuses to give them any health benefits. Lazy ba$tards don't deserve it anyhow. If they worked harder they could be rich and would not need somebody else to pay for their health care.

RCprince
02-27-2009, 07:47 PM
by David Conway, A Farewell to Marx: An Outline and Appraisal of His Theories (Harmondsworth, Middlesex: Penguin Books, 1987), pp. 98-124

According to Marx, capitalists are able to make profits only by exploiting their workers. Profits are made by the capitalist's appropriation of the surplus value created by the labour of his workers. In other words, profits are made by the workers producing for their capitalist employers sums of value greater than they are paid in wages. That sum of value which the workers receive in wages they pay back to the capitalist by working for the period of necessary labour. The sums of value that are created by workers during the period of surplus labour represent for the capitalist pure gain. It is a return for which they make no equivalent outlay. Marx called the rate of surplus vale, therefore, 'an exact expression for the degree of exploitation of labour-power by capital, or of the worker by the capitalist.

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 11:05 PM
Not sure how that is. In the budget outline released yesterday he held to his promise of lowering taxes on people who make less than $250K per year. Everyone else will see their taxes go down. Based on your fervent rants about taxes going up I assume that you are in that top 5% over $250K, and that sucks. Fortunately you have to be making more than about $650K before the really large increases kick in, so I hope you are not in that group.

No, hardly... but apparently you missed the little ditty's in there about couples making over $209,000 combined will no longer be able to write-off mortgage interest?? Just one of the many, MANY little tidbits that WILL raise MANY more people that are below $250K...

But it's pointless to argue with you guys about this... you don't want to look at actuals... you are content to just listen to the speach that was written for him...

And after today, don't try to BS me about Education... I just found out today that our schools are cutting teacher pay, cutting back in several areas, changing the way that federal money is given out, changing teacher pay based on how the school is performing, increasing class sizes... OH, and raising our property taxes by over 6% THIS year... There is some stimulous for you...





Actually no, but the janitor should be able to afford a home like the S.E. to call his own like the S.E.


That's a CROCK OF CRAP! That's taking from the have's and giving to the have-nots... If the Janitor works hard, and saves money, and does the right thing... they SHOULD be able to afford a house... HOWEVER, it's REDICULOUS to say that they should be alble "to afford a home like the S.E."... Hell... what's the point in getting experience and an education if I can be just a prosperous cleaning floors?? :olleyes:

You guys can't really believe this crap, can you??? :ohmy:

Darin Jordan
02-27-2009, 11:08 PM
OBAMA'S TWO-WEEK RECAP

1, The American people elect a black president with a total of 42 days experience as a U S Senator from the most politically corrupt state in America whose governor is ousted from office. The President's first official act is to close Gitmo and make sure Terrorists civil rights are not violated.

2, The U.S. Congress rushes to confirm a black Attorney General, Eric Holder, whose law firm we later find out represents seventeen Gitmo Terrorists.

3, The CIA Boss, Leon Penetta with absolutely no experience, has a daughter Linda we find out, that is a true radical anti-American activist who is a supporter of all the Anti-American regimes in the western hemisphere.

4. We got the most corrupt female in America as Secretary of State; bought and paid for.

5. We got a Tax Cheat for Treasury Secretary who files his own taxes.

6. A Commerce Secretary nominee who withdrew due to corruption charges.

7. A Tax cheat nominee for Chief Performance Officer who withdrew under charges.

8. A Labor Sec'y nominee who withdrew under charges of unethical conduct.

9. A Sec'y HHS nominee who withdrew under charges of cheating on his taxes.

And that's just the first two weeks . . . but who's counting.

America is being run by the modern-day Three Stooges ~ Barrack, Nancy , and Harry ~ and they are still trying to define stimulus.

Stimulus is where the government gives a smidgen of your tax dollars back to you making you feel so good about yourself [stimulated] that you want to run out to Wal-Mart and buy a new Chinese-made HDTV and go home and watch Telemundo!

One Big Ass Mistake, America...

RCprince
02-27-2009, 11:48 PM
Obama is just following the policies put in placed by his masters, like any other president before him. Darin are you ready to take the Capitol or The White House? let me know when your ready.

Steven Vaccaro
02-28-2009, 08:24 AM
Quote from Steven

"Ask the 20 million illegal aliens residing in the USA if they are turned away at hospitals! They are not, as a matter of fact, check the local emergency rooms around Boston, the waits are ridiculous! They are filled with people that will not pay a cent"

Steven, try that if you do not have USA documentation.

Douggie


Doug I dont have to try. My grand parents worked hard to save and come here the correct way. So my parent and I are US citizens! :banana:

Also I know ILEGAL aliens, if they have just an itch they go to the emergency room. Its amazing!

Steven Vaccaro
02-28-2009, 08:30 AM
Of course you ignore the fact that Obama is actually accounting for the costs of the two wars. Something which Bush did not in his numbers. But that never bothered you.

Ok Bill, now that O has outlined his "pull out" of Iraq, I have a theory on why he has added the war to the budget. In 2010 the bulk of the military will be pulled out and the budget will be decrease substantially. He will than be telling us about the major savings he's made to the budget. Smoke and Mirrors. :cursing:

Bill-SOCAL
02-28-2009, 11:18 AM
Well, he "added" the war costs to the budget because that is the way you do a budget. Bush pulled a fast one and excluded the war costs to present a better budget picture. That has never been done before.


So if you want to talk about "smoke and Mirrors" Steven lets give credit to the real magician, Bush. He took a huge surplus and turned into the largest deficit in history, and he did that WITHOUT accounting for the war costs. But you all think that he did and use that as the excuse for his deficit.

So now Obama does the right thing and he is the shifty one? Got it.

Bill-SOCAL
02-28-2009, 11:28 AM
Also I know ILEGAL aliens, if they have just an itch they go to the emergency room. Its amazing!

My wife works for the hospital in our area of south Orange County, CA. We have a very large Latino population. I have no idea how you know the immigration status of the people who go to your local emergency room, because out here they do not and cannot inquire. So how do you know the numbers, or are you simply assuming that ALL Latino people are illegals??

For the record, the overwhelming number of people who come into her emergency room are nice white people. And it is staggering to realize how few of them have insurance. One of the big issues for our hospital is how many nice white folks jam our emergency room for a simple cold because they don't want to wait to see their doctor.

Our hospital does over 55,000 patient visits per year, the problem is not all those nasty illegals. It is all those hard working people, black, brown, and white with no insurance. See it IS illegal to turn away a patient without insurance in California, so they go to the emergency room.

What is troubling is the overt racism so many show with their comments. The really sad part is that you do not even realize what you are saying it is so built into your mindset.

Steven Vaccaro
02-28-2009, 11:44 AM
Bill I will be the first one to say I'm wrong when in 2010 he comes out and says the only reason for the huge decrease in the budget was the reduction of troops in Iraq.

There are many, many democrats and republicans that are growing tried of the same old crap. How can these guys from both sides come on tv and lie about where they stand, what they will do and what they have done?

I just heard some get new on Thursday. Massachusetts is getting about 10 billion from the stimulus package. :banana::sarcasm1: 1-2 billion for infrastructure and 7-8 billion for "programs". I wonder how many jobs will be created from "programs"? More junk jobs, more pork. But as Schumer says, we hard working Americans don't care about the pork. Just keep handing out the checks! :doh:

I know I'm way off topic, but when McCain said we may be in Iraq for a long time he was killed by the left wing media. How come they are not crucifying O for wanting for keep 50k in troops there indefinitely?

Darin Jordan
02-28-2009, 11:47 AM
Let's not forget... Obama and his band of "social do-gooders" voted YES to EVERY one of Bush's budgets, and they were pissed off he wasn't spending more...

Steven Vaccaro
02-28-2009, 12:01 PM
My wife works for the hospital in our area of south Orange County, CA. We have a very large Latino population. I have no idea how you know the immigration status of the people who go to your local emergency room, because out here they do not and cannot inquire. So how do you know the numbers, or are you simply assuming that ALL Latino people are illegals??

For the record, the overwhelming number of people who come into her emergency room are nice white people. And it is staggering to realize how few of them have insurance. One of the big issues for our hospital is how many nice white folks jam our emergency room for a simple cold because they don't want to wait to see their doctor.

Our hospital does over 55,000 patient visits per year, the problem is not all those nasty illegals. It is all those hard working people, black, brown, and white with no insurance. See it IS illegal to turn away a patient without insurance in California, so they go to the emergency room.

What is troubling is the overt racism so many show with their comments. The really sad part is that you do not even realize what you are saying it is so built into your mindset.


Please don't try to judge me from the other side of the monitor. I have two extremely good sales people that I hired and work for me that are from Columbia. They came here legally. And worked hard to do it! I hear the stories from them. I see the numerous people that try to sell us a piece of jewelry but can not because they hold no ID's or have fake "mall" issued id's. I have friends in the city that are police and have to deal with illegals driving with no license and no insurance. FACE IT ANY ILEGALS ARE A MAJOR BURDEN ON OUR SOCIETY. If that statement makes me a raciest in your eyes, I can live with that.

Flying Scotsman
02-28-2009, 12:31 PM
Yes, America has a huge illegal alien problem, but who hires them, knowing they are illegaly in the country? Fix that illegal practice and the problem will be solved, and as a bonus, wages will go up.

Douggie

ghostofpf1
02-28-2009, 12:54 PM
Yes, America has a huge illegal alien problem, but who hires them, knowing they are illegally in the country? Fix that illegal practice and the problem will be solved, and as a bonus, wages will go up.

Douggie

Never happen..Big Business makes too much money from the cheap labor


Steve

Bill-SOCAL
02-28-2009, 02:07 PM
Let's not forget... Obama and his band of "social do-gooders" voted YES to EVERY one of Bush's budgets, and they were pissed off he wasn't spending more...


Well, not really, but lets not let facts destroy a fun debate:

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490&type=category&category=10&go.x=9&go.y=12

Bill-SOCAL
02-28-2009, 02:09 PM
Please don't try to judge me from the other side of the monitor.

Let me be clear that the final remark in my post was not directed specifically at you Steven. I should have separated that out. But I do think that there is often a hidden underlying racial tint to many of the comments that I see about immigrants, both legal and illegal.

Darin Jordan
02-28-2009, 02:18 PM
But I do think that there is often a hidden underlying racial tint to many of the comments that I see about immigrants, both legal and illegal.


That's a nice way to try to villify anyone with an oposing viewpoint...

Without any "racial tint" at all, here are a few more facts... I'm sure they won't get in your way...



Despite the slowdown, the number of illegal immigrants remains at an all-time high, up more than 40 percent from about 8.4 million in 2000 to 11.9 million in March,(2008) according to the Pew study. Illegal immigrants make up about 4 percent of the U.S. population and about 30 percent of its foreign-born residents. More than four out of 10, or 5.3 million, arrived since the start of the decade.

Sorry, but the big problem most of us have is that they are here ILLEGALLY...

Think of them as Big Business, sucking up resources and not paying their fair share... Maybe that will put it in terms the libs can understand...

And that's only considering that they are ALL "good people"... How many of them are "bad" ones??

Steven Vaccaro
02-28-2009, 02:37 PM
Let me be clear that the final remark in my post was not directed specifically at you Steven. I should have separated that out. Understood.



But I do think that there is often a hidden underlying racial tint to many of the comments that I see about immigrants, both legal and illegal.

I have not read many comments about "legal" immigrants. It seems all the comments I have ever read are targeted at "illegal" immigrants. I don't care if the Illegal is Green, black, brown, white, or red. If they are illegal they should be tossed back at their originating country.

My grandparents names are listed on Ellis Island, something they were proud of. That used to mean something to all incoming immigrants. Now its bypassed Illegally.

RCprince
02-28-2009, 02:39 PM
That's a nice way to try to villify anyone with an oposing viewpoint...

Without any "racial tint" at all, here are a few more facts... I'm sure they won't get in your way...



Sorry, but the big problem most of us have is that they are here ILLEGALLY...

Think of them as Big Business, sucking up resources and not paying their fair share... Maybe that will put it in terms the libs can understand...

And that's only considering that they are ALL "good people"... How many of them are "bad" ones??

So Mr D. What happens to the companies who ship jobs overseas and still get tax incentives. Are they not sucking up the resources of the taxpayers? American companies who hire abroad are they not oozing our tax resources out of the country, by not hiring tax paying employees.

Bill-SOCAL
02-28-2009, 02:42 PM
That's a nice way to try to villify anyone with an oposing viewpoint...

Well no, it is a way of making an observation, no attempt to "villify" anyone.



Sorry, but the big problem most of us have is that they are here ILLEGALLY...

Think of them as Big Business, sucking up resources and not paying their fair share... Maybe that will put it in terms the libs can understand...

And that's only considering that they are ALL "good people"... How many of them are "bad" ones??

Well, again, when you see a Latino on the street, or in an emergency room, or anywhere else, how can you tell by looking that they are illegal?? I am not in favor of illegal immigration, but I am also not for lumping all people of a given ethnic origin into a single group in the absence of evidence.

Speaking of "Big Business" where is your outrage for the companies that provide the jobs for all these illegals? Not a peep about that. All we hear is how bad they are and what a suck on our resources they are, but what about the people who knowingly hire them??

As far as criminal conduct goes, the latest estimates say that there were around 15,000 illegal aliens sentenced in the criminal justice system in the US on average over the past few years. Given the estimates of up to 25,000,000 million of them it seems like it is incorrect to perceive them as a predominantly criminal group. In fact, some studies show criminal conduct at a lower per capita rate than for the general population.

http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2008/02/immigrants_incl.html

There are others.

My point here is not to defend illegal immigration or to justify it in any manner. But I do want people to have a factual basis for their opinions. For me, if you are arrested and found to be illegal, then you get deported. If you are found to knowingly employ illegals, you go to jail.

Darin Jordan
02-28-2009, 02:44 PM
Speaking of "Big Business" where is your outrage for the companies that provide the jobs for all these illegals? Not a peep about that.

Sorry Bill... but I only have time to address one Liberal mess at a time... :tt2:

Bill-SOCAL
02-28-2009, 02:55 PM
WHAT!! You see the lack of enforcement of immigration laws and the desire not to prosecute businesses who hire them as a "Liberal" problem?? Wow, talk about denial.

The right is all about outrage for illegals being here and not a peep about the people who hire them, but that makes it a liberal problem?? OK, got it.

Darin Jordan
02-28-2009, 03:03 PM
WHAT!! You see the lack of enforcement of immigration laws and the desire not to prosecute businesses who hire them as a "Liberal" problem?? Wow, talk about denial.

The right is all about outrage for illegals being here and not a peep about the people who hire them, but that makes it a liberal problem?? OK, got it.

Bill... you need to lighten up... The 'sticking-out-his-tongue' smilely should have indicated to you I was being jovial and just teasing...

You need to start a boating project... You'll get more out of it... ;)