Now accepting Canard plans

[Meniscus]

:tape: Yes I said it. I figure, if I start thinking about and building a Canard, I may have something that runs decent in 2010.

All contributions welcome. To answer some of the questions: No, I haven't ever run a Canard, Yes I know I don't have the experience, No I do not need criticism, etc. etc. LOL

I hoping that, mixed in with my other builds, I won't get as discouraged as I do the slow build and testing.

Thanks for the input ahead of time. :beerchug:

[Simon.O.]

Go for it Ben !!
A canard is a far harder beast than a rigger for me, my rigger screams and with the same power and similar size hull I can not get my canard as fast.
There are a few reasons for this. My design may be flawed or my etup is all off, lastly a Canard may not be as fast as a rigger.
I am still working on it, and a few other mad ideas, because I agree with Rembrand over at RRR that a rigger may not be the fastest hull out there. It is at the moment but some people ar keen to try new ideas.

I will help you in any way that I can and look forward to seeing what other input is fed in here. :thumbup:

[Apples1]

GIve it a crack... i will try and did up some Stuff from a member that is running one with great success against all the other EA and EB riggers. Might be tough though

[Meniscus]

Thanks for the encouragement guys and Simon, I've been watching your builds even though I don't post there often.

I know someone has plans I can make my own ;) LOL => that is, make my own mistakes!!!

[Apples1]

good luck, you have bigger Balls than me...... ( figurativly speaking )

[Meniscus]

The answer is, no I do not have any medical issues!

You did see my timeline right? LOL!

[785boats]

I've searched for plans but can't find any. I've got some sketches I drew up to build the X-WING but that's all.I based it on some photos of an Aeromarine Canard.
Here's one in action. My avitar is the X-WING
I used it as a guide to proportions.
The video is the X-WING running on 4s lipo.
http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm201/785boats/?action=view&current=X-Wing.flv

Cheers.
Paul.

[Meniscus]

Paul, I was hoping you might post a response here. Thanks!

Do you have pictures of the back and bottom of your build and/or the Aeromarine?

I'm also hoping someone has pictures of the H&M canards as well.

[Meniscus]

Now accepting Canard plans...Now accepting all pictures.

Do you run turn fins with Canards? I'm wondering how you get them to turn at all!

[J Solinger]

Here are a few canard photos. I honestly don't know much about them but they where heavily tested in the late 80's early 90's with succes. Ed Fischer was someone that did alot of work with them. They don't use any turn fins on them, they work simularly to tunnel hulls. You will note the dihedral angle on the sponsons is pretty steep. I think it's worth playing with, for something different but effective.

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums/userpics/10051/normal_c2.jpg

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums/userpics/10051/normal_c4.jpg

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums/userpics/10051/normal_c5.jpg

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums/userpics/10051/normal_c8.jpg

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/albums/userpics/10051/c9.jpg

[Meniscus]

Joe, what other pictures do you have up your sleeve? Do you have any pictures of the bottom of these types of hulls?

Thanks for the info regarding turn fins!

[Meniscus]

Oh and BTW, SWEET twin drive!!!

[ED66677]

Meniscus,
I did some clean draft from Simon's canard sketches, check out my web page for pdf or dxf file..

[Meniscus]

Cool! Thanks!

Are the ride pads typical angles? What other info have you gathered regarding the shape of the sponson bottoms?

[ED66677]

Are the ride pads typical angles? what do you mean here?

[Meniscus]

Do they differ or are they the same as riggers? => I'm trying to understand Joe's post about "dihedral angle"

[ED66677]

the more dihedral you put the less fin you need but the deeper sponson will ride!

[785boats]

I took a few pics of the underside of mine for you.
With regards to turn fins I run a small one on the rear of the front sponson.
The dihedral angle & the angle of attack on the wings & sponsons were completely arbitrary on my part. They just looked about right on paper.
As you can see she's got a few battle scars & needs a repaint. One day.

Love those canards Joe. Great pics.

All the best.
Paul.

[AndyKunz]

Have you tried talking to Ken Joye in Michigan yet? He likes canards and might be able to help.

Andy

[Meniscus]

Paul, Great pictures, this helps a lot. Could you post a picture with a profile view? I am interested in seeing the orientation of the strut in comparison with the ride surfaces in the back.

Andy, No I haven't talked to him yet. Send me his contact info please! Thanks.

[Meniscus]

Also, what is the relationship regarding the width of the step in the front and the ride pads in the back?

Is there a general calculation related to the distance of the front step and the distance between the sponsons in the back? Or is it just what looks good? LOL!

Last, I'm thinking that, due to the difficulty setting up a Canard, I may consider making the three wet surfaces adjustable for angle. Has anyone done this already?

Keep the information coming guys! Before long, we'll have H&M making a fully adjustable one ;) LMAO! => as if the demand was there for fully adjustable Canards!

[J Solinger]

I didn't see any canard hull bottom photos. I don't think its terribly complicated but a hull that you can change sponsons easily would be the ticket. The angle of attack looks to be in the 3 to 5 degree range and the dihedral looks around 15+ degrees.

[teach]

http://www.newtonmarine.com/plan_details.php?prodId=307&category=0

Not sure if that would help you any. It just looked awsome when I was digging through looking for plans.

[Simon.O.]

Now that I have got mine going a lot better with advice from ED and others.
I will take a few pics and then draw some dimensions on them too.
A big difference that my Canard has is a narrow nose, if you have seen my build and run thread then you will see this. I don't really know if it is good or bad as I have only ever seen my Canard run. I have seen a few on the tube and the smallest is a 12cell or 4S beast that is Pauls. (785boats). Mine is a 6-cell or 2S size.

Give me a few days to get the pics up and I will get them "painted on" and then post them here. I can e-mail the hi-res ones to whoever wants them.

PM me if you want them so we don't cloud up this thread.

Ben , you automatically get them sent to you. :laugh:

[Meniscus]

Joe, that's why I'm thinking adjustable. This way, some determinations can be made regarding what does or doesn't work, without going through build after build.

Teach, thanks for the link. Wow, there are a lot of plans there...more than I know what to do with, LOL.

Simon, I'd say post the pics, it may help someone browsing later.

[Meniscus]

Next question for pondering:

Steps? Since it has been explained that the Canard works on principles similar to a tunnel, does/has anyone used steps on the ride surfaces? Good idea/bad idea?

[785boats]

Hi there.
Here's a side view of the ol' girl. Also one taken slightly above & one from slightly below side on.
There's also a top view. I managed to find the original sketches & took a photo of them. Not very clear I'm afraid but it may help with some proportions.
As I said before I based the thing on a photo of the Aeromarine canard & all dimensions, angles & proportions were just what looked aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Well, my eye that is. So There are probably many design rules broken or ignored in this model.
The only thing that I feel is important is to get the COG as close as possible to the center of lift. My previous experience with building model planes convinced me of this.
Regarding the ride pad of the front sponson, you'll see that mine tapers to a section of about 30mm wide where the small turn fin is attached ( see previous photos )
Once the boat is set up The front sponson barely kisses the water at full noise so I don't think its size is much of an issue. But for sure, the smaller the better is always a good target.
If steps make Hydros, Tunnels, Monos & Cats go faster I don't see why they wouldn't make a canard go faster too.
I don't have a clue about what it will do to the handling though.
Here's the dimensions of mine if it's any help.

Length: 700mm (27-1/2")
Width: 440mm (17-1/4")
Rear sponson length: 300mm (11-3/4")
Rear sponson width: 70mm (2-3/4")
Front sponson length: 200mm (8")
Tub width overall: 110mm (4-1/4")
Tub width internal: 75mm (3")

Hope this helps a bit
Paul.

[Meniscus]

Great pics Paul! These pictures are some of the most useful thus far, especially for setup. Great info as well regarding dimensions.

I guess I may have to be the guinea pig for steps. In any case, I'll make the sponsons removable and have two different versions, courtesy of Joe's input.

Say, is that a full book of plans you have drafted? Perhaps we may have to talk about making me a xerox copy ;) LMAO!

[Simon.O.]

Great pics Paul! These pictures are some of the most useful thus far, especially for setup. Great info as well regarding dimensions.
Too true. Now I'll have to make a real effort on my pics.


I guess I may have to be the guinea pig for steps. In any case, I'll make the sponsons removable and have two different versions, courtesy of Joe's input.
My call would be go for "plain" sponsons first and then if as you suggest they are easy to modify then throw on the steps later.


Say, is that a full book of plans you have drafted? Perhaps we may have to talk about making me a xerox copy ;) LMAO!

That looks like the last page there Ben, I think Paul is a bit like me and has 90% of the build in his head and the rest is scribbled on a piece of paper.

In my workshop at the moment I have a lot of pics of a Xcess-3 rigger

[Meniscus]

My call would be go for "plain" sponsons first and then if as you suggest they are easy to modify then throw on the steps later.

Yes, I was planning to start with plain and go from there. I like lessons-learned in stages, LOL! :tongue_smilie:

[Meniscus]

Paul, do you own any other Canards? > just out of curiosity

[785boats]

Hi Ben.
No, that's the only one.
Oh, the sketch book is mainly just a few Navy stealth ships that I've drawn up from photos & artists impressions in Navy magazines.
I do a lot of scale/semiscale modeling too.
You're right Simon, Mostly in the head with a few sketches to get the proportions to look right.
All the best.
Paul.

[Meniscus]

Oh, the sketch book is mainly just a few Navy stealth ships that I've drawn up from photos & artists impressions in Navy magazines.


Well, you can't blame me for trying to get a copy! :spy:

[Simon.O.]

Ben, here are some pics that I took today, I was unable to paint the dimensions on them as I hoped to.
You can use these pics as a guide to some of the proportions of my layout.
This is not a perfect hull so to copy it excactly would be a mistake.

When I began the design and build I had a couple of pics of Pauls boat, not as good as the ones he has put here and a couple of pics of a H&M Thunderbolt.
The rest was sketch and go.

I will measure up some of the key points and list them such as sponson dihedral and AoA.

You can design and build a Canard, Paul and I did and so did Ken Joye ( I think) on rrr.

[Simon.O.]

More...

[Meniscus]

More pictures!!! :laugh: Thanks Simon!

[Meniscus]

Any idea where this picture came from that is featured on Steven's site under Tips & Info?

10451

[785boats]

Here's the Arrowshark Raptor for your viewing pleasure.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/45-ArrowShark-Raptor-Canard-Hydro-Hull-suit-23cc-26cc_W0QQitemZ300226988070QQihZ020QQcategoryZ2564Q QcmdZViewItem

Paul.

[Meniscus]

Cool, my viewing pleasure is fulfilled.

It seems a little pricey though. Who is manufacturing this item? Do you know?

[785boats]

Arrow Shark is the manufacturer. In China I think.
They make a few different hulls & lots of accessories. Give them a Google.
It's a big hull at 45" & designed for I.C. engines. I mainly posted it as another aid in your design work because there are some good views of it in the ad.
Here it is at a store in the U.S.A. A bit cheaper too as it's hull only. And three pages of accessories too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/45-Arrow-Shark-Raptor-Hull-Suit-23-35cc_W0QQitemZ260357226811QQihZ016QQcategoryZ2564Q QcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

For anyone interested in Australia, R/C Boatbitz (in Adelaide) stock Arrow Shark hulls & accessories. Good people to deal with.

http://www.rcboatbitz.com.au/

Still can't find any drawings on the "Wide Wide World of Web". There must be some somewhere.
Cheers.
Paul.

[Meniscus]

Great info, thanks again.

[Meniscus]

Any idea where this picture came from that is featured on Steven's site under Tips & Info?

10451

Anyone??? Steven?

[Simon.O.]

Anyone??? Steven?

Ben, that hull looks a lot like the one Ken Joye (sp) of Mach-5 racing over at RRR built.
That is my best guess.
This will help you get to him.
http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/showthread.php?t=17475

[Meniscus]

How do you find this stuff? LOL

[785boats]

Hi Ben. Stumbled across this while looking for something else.
It's the Hydro & Marine Firefox. Just scroll down the page 'till you find it. Not bad for $99.00.

http://www.finedesignrc.com/hullshydromarine.asp

Here's a couple of pics of one built up by Eddie Mathews.

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.astecmodels.co.uk/images/gallery/bbird2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.astecmodels.co.uk/old-gallery.htm&usg=__YstpKkSNY2k8-055_YD9I4v1OfE=&h=270&w=400&sz=27&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=28kojBdo20I-bM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcanard%2Bhull%2Bplans%2BFirefox%26gbv %3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
Cheers.
Paul.

[AndyKunz]

How do you find this stuff? LOL

Have you contacted Ken Joye yet? I mentioned him back at the beginning of this thread. You can find him on RRR or thru www.mmeu.com

Andy

[Meniscus]

785,

Good links. Keep them coming! I can't figure out where he's fitting 14 cells, LOL!


Andy,

I haven't had the chance to contact him yet. I wanted to get my act together a little and ask the pertinent questions I may have.

I do remember your post and I've got it marked for action. Thanks!

[785boats]

Ben.
An observation.
Since seeing all these pictures lately & Simons brilliant photos, there are two things I would change on the dimensions of my original drawings if I were to make another one.
1) shorten the wings by 20mm (3/4") each
2) make the rear sponsons 20mm (3/4") narrower.
This would reduce the overall width by 80mm (3-3/16")
This should reduce some of the lift, so the strut angle could be leveled out a bit.
It was originaly designed for a 700 brushed motor with 12/14 cells & I thought it would need a lot of lift for that weight.
Now that it has a brushless & 4s lipo the weight is a lot less.
This may or may not help in your design efforts.
My only option to reduce lift now is to take the top skin off the wings (which are split anyway) , sand some of the wing section away to make them thiner and reskin them. I'll do this when I repaint the old girl.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Meniscus]

Good ideas Paul.

I'm considering making the rear sponsons much like a rigger. Meaning, they will have booms. This way I can lay other material or create downforce/lift as needed. At least, that's what I'm currently contemplating.

[ED66677]

that's certainly a very good idea, the front boom could be fixed while the rear one could, by moving it up or down, let you adjust sponson's angle!
that said you might not even want to put any wing for the first test to avoid aerodynamic undesired effect, when the canard is tuned, just add a flat board under booms with the front pointing upward to test ground effect, remember that the thicker the airfoil is, the earlier (in speed) it will be efficient, playing with airfoils can be "dangerous" and "parasite", at different speed it will create different lift effect, a flat board will basically not creates aerodynamic lift, only ground effect!

[ED66677]

Meniscus, I found this one interresting for you http://www.fastelectricsrfun.co.uk/miss_stress_2.htm

[Meniscus]

Intriguing! I've seen a few of these concept incorporated in some full size boats, but I haven't seen one like that.

Thanks for the link!

[Meniscus]

Here's a new picture I've found:

http://www.ppbracing.com/models/viper_canard_26_35/viper.jpg

[ED66677]

Hudge!

[nate]

Ugghhh There so damn Ugly!!!! lol I heard there fast tho.

[785boats]

Man!!! That's a serious piece of work.

[Meniscus]

I can't even imagine what speed that thing goes when it's tuned. Even not electric!

Sorry for the oversized pic screwing up the forum experience, LOL!

[questtek]

Hopefully I can all to your pool of information on canard RC boats.

From the attached pictures you will see two different types of canard boats, one yellow and two white, representing three experimental propulsion options.

The yellow canard is from Aeromarine, and was previously mentioned in the thread. This is a very well made fiberglass boat with hull number 8905. I originally considered the basic design of this boat to be a candidate for a unique mode of transportation (in Dubai, the only place in the world something like this could happen) that combines a car, boat and submersible. The Aeromarine hull represented a 1/7th scale model. I incorporated a unique prototype propulsion system I designed that had both propeller and wheel. This is shown in the picture, where two such units were mounted underneath the canard.

Currently I am planning to remove this dual land/sea propulsion system and mount a large brushless inrunner. The motor I am holding in the picture has a max power output of 6.6 KW, on 10-12 LiPo's pulling 120 amps max. The KV is 16 and the shaft size is 12 mm. This is a works in progress since I developed a very unique, unconventional cooling system for the motor and ESC.

The white canards shown have two different experimental propulsion systems. The first uses a Feigao FG540XL, 2984KV inrunner brushless motor driving a jet pump. I know the first reaction is that this will not work at high speed since the jet water intake will probably be out of the water. Indeed this is correct but the application for this boat is NOT high speed rather an oceanographic research platform with a small Pentium computer, u/w cameras and sensors designed to do inshore monitoring where weeds and kelp may be a problem. At slow speed the intake remains submerged and is quite effective for this very specific application.

The second white canard also has a rather unique propulsion system I designed and built. It is a brushless motor of about 3,000 watts in a special underwater housing. In this case the motor and housing are underwater. Again, this is experimental with the intent other than pure high speed. In this configuration I have maximum interior volume for oceanographic monitoring equipment. Motor cooling problems are obviously minimized in this configuration.

Hope you find the above useful………..or at least a bit interesting!
Professor Joe Valencic

[questtek]

I just remembered that I posted information on the canards at my blog on RC groups. You can scroll down to near the end and find the two canard blogs I referenced. Again, hope it gives you some creative ideas!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=117430

[Meniscus]

questtek,

Welcome to the forum. I looked at your page and have looked at some of your work. I'm glad to see others thinking about unconventional applications. I hope you frequent this forum and share your build and experience. :thumbup1:

Thanks for taking the time to share your Canard and I look forward to seeing a video of it working.

[Meniscus]

Here's a few more pictures:

http://www.pbs-passau.de/Thumbnail_micro_canard_flo_2.JPG http://www.pbs-passau.de/Thumbnail_micro_canard_flo_1.JPG

Found Here (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.pbs-passau.de/boote_micro_canard_flo.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhydroworld%2Bpewter%26hl%3Den&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhgCiGIqnCFnTiA_wz5UW607l057ng)

[Meniscus]

Here are some more, pulled from a German site. Thank you Diegoboy for downloading the pictures!

21654 21655
21656 2165721658

[Meniscus]

Original CAD concept:
21659

[D&D]

In the mid to late 80's a guy in the Capitol RCers in the Washington, DC/VA area bought the rights to the Fisher Canard and built it for years. I knew and raced with this guy (can't rmember his name Mike something - getting to damn old), for many years. Mike's personal Carnard was very fast, but also did not like rough water.

Initially the advantage of the Canard was that it was faster than a cat boat, but handled very much like a cat. The problem with the boat was that the setup was very, very touchy and they crashed a lot. Then the "bent fin" on the rigger came along and either caught up with or almost caught up with the Carnard's handling, but the rigger was faster.

[Meniscus]

Great info!!! Do you have any pictures from that timeframe? Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you share in detail some of the design changes you employed with the team over the years?

I'm very excited to hear your input since you have hands on knowledge about this hull design.

Thanks!

[D&D]

Sorry, I knew Mike well, talked with him about his Canards, and I raced with/against him all the time - but never ran them myself.

I can tell you that many of his customers would complain that he was not giving out all he knew about the setup of the hull. I watched him show people the setup measurements on his hull, but the bottom line is the hull as very touchy. The Fisher style Canard was the very thin lined design, especially the "nose" of the hull and it nose dived easily. However; during that time period I never saw a faster boat of any type than Mike's own Canard that he raced.

Later I saw "thicker" Canard models on the market, such as the Aeromarine and others, that were not a "touchy" as the Fisher - but they were never as fast. Mike was out of manufacturing and boating years before I left after 1999. He could tell you all about that hull, but I never saw him again after he left the club.

[Meniscus]

Well, here's another Canard for sale: http://www.wheelspinmodels.co.uk/boat/item/B-VAN060A-EPR-Earthrace-1300-Brushless-RTR__15134/

[Fluid]

The molds for the Fisher canard were for sale 15 years ago, perhaps the guy who was trying to sell them knows more.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HxIZTxPoVYAJ:groups.google.com/group/rec.models.rc.water/tree/browse_frm/month/1996-02%3F_done%3D%252Fgroup%252Frec.models.rc.water%25 2Fbrowse_frm%252Fmonth%252F1996-02%253F%26+%22fisher+canard%22+mike&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com


More pics:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2mfdiyb.jpg http://i53.tinypic.com/9qi7hu.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/16j3k2a.jpg http://i55.tinypic.com/2zf01sn.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/35a7l8y.jpg http://i55.tinypic.com/ffd7d1.jpg



.

[Meniscus]

Jay, that goes back a while. What else are you holding under you hat? :laugh:

I didn't think my Floating Duck thread would ever come back up, but sure enough it did. I ended up posting the pictures I was holding.

Great pictures!

[urbs00007]

where can i see more on this boat?

[Fluid]

Which boat? This thread is almost three years old....


.

[Meniscus]

Yes, missed seeing this one. Which one are you asking about?

[XRated]

This is my Stilleto Canard,back in the mid late 96's137358

[MrDNA]

Any chance you have more pics of the pink Fisher Canard?
Thanks