Zonda 42 twin sea king 180's

[paulejr]

and the brand new boat will only hit 18 mph. batteries are new 5000ah , 50c , 22.2 v. 6s and each ESC gets its own battery. I have changed batteries , changed TX/RX, I do not have a program card for this and the instructions for doing the LVC change via the tx is beyond my control. I don't think it is LVC as both times I tried to run this boat was with fully charged pack showing max v test before installing them. the factory wants a video of the bench test as well as wanting me to manually do the LVC instead of auto ..This boat is one month old.:frusty:

[Panther6834]

Others will be better equipped to help you...but, I am curious as to why you're running batteries in a boat with such low C ratings. Although my slower/smaller boats run packs with continues C ratings in the 50-75C range, all of my larger/faster boats run packs that have a minimum C ratings of 100C (most are 120-150C). Also (since you posted no info), could it be the props?


~ More peace, love, laughter, & kindness would make the world a MUCH better place

[paulejr]

Well, when i ordered the boat, the nomenclature stated 50c or higher. as i was looking for higher V and 6s I figured these Admirals would be a good start. I have a pair of 100 C G2's at 3s 11.2v and could try them in series on one of the ESC/motors? Any the factory just got involved saying they thought the LVC was the problem but they both test 22.2 v prior to running so the auto feature should see that they are not in harms way for being bad as all the cells test at max v 4.1., yes 24.4 v total at the wire. bench test , both motors sound the same and I sent them a video . tried to post here but too large a file. As for the props, they are TFL factory 40mm x 1.9.

[Panther6834]

Instead of trying to post video, it's easier to just post the link to the video. When several others wanted to see the dual rudder conversation I did on a ProBoat Shockwave, that's how I did it.


~ More peace, love, laughter, & kindness would make the world a MUCH better place

[Bande1]

if it really is LVC you shouldnt change the settings because there's something very wrong with the batteries if they're voltage sagging that bad. try your 3s in series for sure. does it spin up to high RPM out of the water without load on the motors?

[paulejr]

connect in series both batteries to just one of the two esc's ? ok here is the Youtube. this is with the 50c batteries on full charge 24.2 v

. https://youtube.com/shorts/mnLdrOKo9OY

[Xrayted]

OP, are you using a Futaba transmitter by chance? If so, Futaba, for some reason decided many years ago to use a throttle signal that is reversed compared to all other vendors.

This means you have to set it to reversed in the transmitter in order for it to be seen as normal by most ESC?s. What will happen is that It will think that forward is reverse. If you run the throttle as normal in the TX, it will only run about 15 to 20 miles an hour because the reverse function on a marine ESC is throttle limited and runs very slowly

it will also prevent you from getting the proper tones to calibrate the throttle endpoints on the transmitter, so if I had to guess, it certainly sounds like your throttle signal is backward based on the symptoms you describe, and those ESC’s you have do have the reverse function active from the factory, and this is not a function you want to use on a fast electric boat

Once you get this sorted, you can simply set the reverse portion of the throttle channel endpoints in your radio to zero to kill reverse until you get a program card to disable it within the ESC

[Panther6834]

connect in series both batteries to just one of the two esc's ? ok here is the Youtube. this is with the 50c batteries on full charge 24.2 v

. https://youtube.com/shorts/mnLdrOKo9OYYou set the video as "private". That makes only you can view it. Need to change setting to "public".


~ More peace, love, laughter, & kindness would make the world a MUCH better place

[vvviivvv]

You also have to take battery C ratings with a pinch of salt...


Do you really think 150c 5000MAH batts can provide 750 amps / need too? true C rating is rare and this is something to be aware of.

I have 65C / 130C burst packs in a boat that is 140mph+ and this is no tiny boat, its 60"

[paulejr]

changed to pubic as is my first You tube and no street signs .... ha i found it!
I started out with a Futaba 3pv. then after much aingst i switched to a Spektrum and got the same results. 15-18 mph. when the mono it came from runs very well. so now my UL-19 pukes at 20 mph as well.. must be the water. but its thrl switch is not functioning so... frustrating.

[Panther6834]

changed to pubic as is my first Youtube and no street signs .... ha i found it!Nope...still private...lol


~ More peace, love, laughter, & kindness would make the world a MUCH better place

[Xrayted]

C ratings on all Lipo’s are marketing nonsense. 99% of all packs are 30 C or less no matter what is on the label. This is not a Battery or LVC issue.

[paulejr]

ok try again.
also vvviivvv , I have no clue what you are talking about . I am too new to FE to understand the jargon and be able to apply it to a conclusion that is success for me on this problem.

[paulejr]

I ordered a programmable card but will take eons to get here ... ( it seems ). Waiting to hear from the factory but tech says my bats were clipping/ sagging voltage????? and the ESC's ( both ) were shutting down to the reduced speed... huh

[Xrayted]

Did you read my post #7 above regarding your throttle channel in the radio being reversed? What you’re describing is exactly what happens if it is reversed, or “not reversed” if using a Futaba radio. You don’t need a program card to solve this

[paulejr]

Xrayted, yes i did and i am not using the 3pv , just a cheap Spektrum that i run my Impulse 32 on , which runs at 50 mph. I thought by switching tx/rx i could see if it was the esc/motors or ?? and got the same result .. 18-20 mph ..on the same batteries. so TFL tech says batteries are sagging but the after run volt test show no significant loss of voltage between the two ( one on one esc/mtr and one on the other set) .having tried other 50 c and 100 c Smart batteries and got the same results.

[Xrayted]

This is absolutely not a battery issue no matter what TFL is telling you. What does the throttle channel show within the spectrum menu that you’re using now? Does the throttle channel show reversed or normal?

if you were to switch back to the 3PV, the throttle channel menu should be set to reversed in order to work properly. that is the same transmitter I use with all of my boats as well.

I had the exact same issue as you with a 36 inch MissGeico fast electric twin. I had a GPS in mine for its first run and guess how fast it went? You got it, 18 mph with two Seaking 180s! We spent about two hours screwing around with it, until I suddenly remembered that Futaba must be reversed

Reversed the throttle in the radio, then was able to calibrate the throttle endpoints, and then the next run was 89 mph

You’re jumping right into the deep end of the pool with this boat considering your experience level. That boat can easily achieve triple digits, and you need to have some level of understanding of basic electrical physics or you can easily burn one down since they run right on the ragged edge of what the equipment is able to handle, and even then, sometimes for only a few seconds at a time

Good luck, and this will absolutely get sorted soon for you, and will likely be something stupid simple in the end:biggrin:

[Panther6834]

Listening to the props spinning, it's sounds like they're full throttle...so, I really don't know.


~ More peace, love, laughter, & kindness would make the world a MUCH better place

[Bande1]

then its cavitation maybe

[jkflow]

Almost certain that you have forward/reverse mixed up. ESC will only do ~ 60% in reverse. That is a setting on the transmitter, but that is not where it ends.

Switch transmitter to 'Reverse',
then flip 2 wires ea between motor and ESC,
next, do a throttle range adjust per ESC manual.

Now you might still not be done, make sure that the flex shafts turn in the right direction, if they do turn the right direction you need to make sure that the props spin outward for best stability.

No, do NOT skip or jump forward, these steps have to be done in the right order.

[paulejr]

I give it a try. right now the props spin inward. back to the 3PV Futaba.

[paulejr]

I trying... the manual says to:

2. If you are using a pistol transmitter:a) Pull the throttle trigger to the top forward position (/full throttle), connect the ESC to the battery pack, then turn the switch on; 2 seconds later, a row of “Beep- Beep-” can be heard, that means the full throttle position has been confirmed.b) Release the throttle trigger to the neutral position, a steady and long “Beep—” can be heard, that means the neutral position has been confirmed.

this boat has no switch on either of the two ESC's .now what? when connecting one , it bleeds over to the other .. hmmmm , putting a switch between the esc and the rx does not work either,hmm.

[paulejr]

If i reverse the factory rotation , wont that unwind the flex shaft? can one arbitrarily reverse these ?
Almost certain that you have forward/reverse mixed up. ESC will only do ~ 60% in reverse. That is a setting on the transmitter, but that is not where it ends.

Switch transmitter to 'Reverse',
then flip 2 wires ea between motor and ESC,
next, do a throttle range adjust per ESC manual.

Now you might still not be done, make sure that the flex shafts turn in the right direction, if they do turn the right direction you need to make sure that the props spin outward for best stability.

No, do NOT skip or jump forward, these steps have to be done in the right order.

[Bande1]

If i reverse the factory rotation , wont that unwind the flex shaft? can one arbitrarily reverse these ?

esc's can be calibrated wrong and make pulling the trigger the reverse as if youre pushing the trigger. That would make the boat go in reverse when you pull the trigger. Except then the controller can reverse it also. so you will go forward because its double reversed. but with highly limited throttle.

to easily test this push the trigger forward and see if it spins significantly faster than pulling it.

[paulejr]

AH ha, motor , when rev on the 3PV ch 2 runs significantly faster outboard , than on NOR , turning inboard. So, now all i have to do pull down both stingers , reverse the flexs and then rev two wires on each motor and she should be read to go full throttle. Or, i can just reverse the leads and let em turn inwards.

[Bande1]

AH ha, motor , when rev on the 3PV ch 2 runs significantly faster outboard , than on NOR , turning inboard. So, now all i have to do pull down both stingers , reverse the flexs and then rev two wires on each motor and she should be read to go full throttle. Or, i can just reverse the leads and let em turn inwards.

they can turn inward. leave all that alone for right now. switch any two wires on each motor and they will spin fast inward. the reverse trigger issue is now in the esc calibration. Im not sure how to reset that on seaking esc's. you need to see the manual or go find it online.

[paulejr]

Thanks Bande1, Futaba instructions are ok but it is not like having someone or someones walk one thru that. Lake tomorrow if the wind holds and i'll get a video now i have YouTube account to post it too.
Thanks again everyone for helping out!!!

[Xrayted]

Swapping any two wires on a brushless motor will reverse the direction of the motor itself, and that is not the problem here, and certainly not what you want to happen as it will unravel your cables. There is also nothing within the programming of the ESC’s that controls throttle direction either

The problem is the throttle channel and signal from the transmitter is reversed. None of this will have any affect at all on which direction the prop turns, as it’s the signal that’s being misinterpreted so that when he pulls the trigger to go forward, it’s actually seeing the limited reverse throttle signal portion and giving him very little forward movement.

This is what I have been trying to convey from the very beginning of this discussion. The only thing required to resolve this is to reverse the throttle channel within the radio. This has nothing to do with reversing the props or reversing the boat. It simply reverses the SIGNAL so that it’s being seen properly by the ESC. I’ve had this exact same situation on two boats, and the solution was the same for both of them.

[Bande1]

Swapping any two wires on a brushless motor will reverse the direction of the motor itself, and that is not the problem here, and certainly not what you want to happen as it will unravel your cables. There is also nothing within the programming of the ESC?s that controls throttle direction either

The problem is the throttle channel and signal from the transmitter is reversed. None of this will have any affect at all on which direction the prop turns, as it?s the signal that?s being misinterpreted so that when he pulls the trigger to go forward, it?s actually seeing the limited reverse throttle signal portion and giving him very little forward movement.

This is what I have been trying to convey from the very beginning of this discussion. The only thing required to resolve this is to reverse the throttle channel within the radio. This has nothing to do with reversing the props or reversing the boat. It simply reverses the SIGNAL so that it?s being seen properly by the ESC. I?ve had this exact same situation on two boats, and the solution was the same for both of them.

You may be right, IDK about futaba's stuff but either way we will get it resolved. Ive had a flycolor be reversed like this and just needed recalibrated.


Turn on the transmitter, set parameters on the throttle channel like ?D/R?, ?EPA? and ?ATL? to 100% (for transmitter without LCD, please turn the knob to the maximum) and the throttle ?TRIM? to 0 (for transmitter without LCD, please turn the corresponding knob to the neutral position). For FutabaTM radio transmitter and similar ones, the direction of throttle channel shall be set to ?REV?, while other radio systems shall be set to ?NOR?. We strongly recommend activating the ?Fail Save? function of the radio system and set it (F/S) to ?Output OFF? or set its value to the ?Neutral Position? to ensure the boat can be stopped when there is no signal received from the transmitter. Note: if the transmitter has the ABS brake function, please disable it.
If you are using a pistol transmitter:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0109/9702/files/Screen_Shot_2014-07-13_at_4.17.31_PM_41e388c3-b4c2-4cf5-9634-e62ad60ebcb7_medium.png?3165

a) Pull the throttle trigger to the top forward position (/full throttle), connect the ESC to the battery pack, then turn the switch on; 2 seconds later, a row of ?Beep- Beep-? can be heard, that means the full throttle position has been confirmed. b) Release the throttle trigger to the neutral position, a steady and long ?Beep?? can be heard, that means the neutral position has been confirmed.
Note: When the motor emits ?Beep? tone(s), the red LED in the ESC flashes at the same time.

here's the manual online
https://www.hobbywingdirect.com/collections/seaking-v3-manual


So to test this theory set Xrayteds settings like hes told you and test if pulling the trigger now makes it spin fast. IF not follow the ESC directions. Turn the radio's trigger to REV like it say. pull the trigger and hook up the battery while pulling the trigger. let it beep twice and release the trigger. Then you will hear a long tone. That confirms the neutral position. Turn the boat off and back on and see if pulling the trigger now make it spin fast.

normally on most radios rev/nor sets the direction of motor spin (as does swapping wires). But apparently your RTR futaba ALSO reverses trigger pull. so that pushing is forward, pulling is reverse. Then if you have that setting mixed up and then calibrate the esc backward it's all jacked up.

Xrayted has your radio so he's been through this.

[Xrayted]

Yep, but he won’t be able to calibrate the throttle endpoints until the throttle signal is first set correctly. If it’s backward, it won’t recognize wide-open throttle in order to activate the calibrations sequence and give the tones to released the throttle trigger to set the other endpoint

those two steps were essentially the solution for my exact problem. Reverse the throttle channel in the radio, calibrate the throttle and done

[paulejr]

I ordered a program card for the sea kings. too windy today to test. but on the bench all seems much better after the tx reverse and motor reverse .... full pull thtl and it was way way faster than brake .. I am much obliged for y'alls help sorting this out, will just have to wait a few days to test and run the program on the two to get end points. I set it on the tx but not sure it took without testing.

[Xrayted]

Awesome, hopefully it’s resolved! You mention reversing the motors, so just to clarify, both the props should still be turning inward towards each other.

if one of them is incorrect, simply swap any two of the three wires for that motor and it will spin the other direction

I also suggest that you set the ESC’s to forward only once you get the program card. You don’t want reverse on a fast electric cat. You can also set the reverse direction endpoint to zero on the throttle channel in the radio and shut it down now if you want to.

[paulejr]

Xrayted, got it, both are turning inboard now and waiting for Steve to ship the card.... I understand about shutting out the reverse. so far I just set its ( reverse ) end point to zero, but with the lake blown out again this morning to test .... sigh , what's a mother to do???

[paulejr]

Off to try a run , wind at 12kph, gust up to 15kph... boat hit 54.17 mph, after 4 minutes , I hit a riffle and up she went . all ok ( insert silly grin here) . Can't thank you guys enough for your patience and help! If y'all ever make it to North Idaho .. YOU MUST come for bbq and a run at the lake! God Bless and Happy Trails!

177067

[Bande1]

glad you got it sorted out.

[jkflow]

Good to hear but a word of caution.
Props turning inward will cause instability in turns, very easy to flip. It will go slightly faster when they do turn inward.
Always make sure that the flex shafts are turning in the right direction if you do move things around. I have mine turn outward by now but give it a try.

What props/motor (kV) are you running? 54 sounds like stock props.

FYI, the program card won't help you with anything at this time, mine has been collecting dust.

[paulejr]

Thanks jkflow, the boat is using the stock configuration from TFL , the props are stock 40mm x1.9 pitch.
Now that the proof of concept has been achieved , I have one piece shafts coming, 42mm x 1.4 pitch ( next up the chain) and I just want to make sure I have all the settings.
The motors are 4092's 2140 kv (44,000 rpm theory no load).I am guessing on a calmer wind day, and tweaking the battery placement, it could reach 60mph. Just glad you guys helped me figure this out! Nothing more frustrating than to spend a bunch of money and have it fall on its face and not know why or what to do!

[Bande1]

Thanks jkflow, the boat is using the stock configuration from TFL , the props are stock 40mm x1.9 pitch.
Now that the proof of concept has been achieved , I have one piece shafts coming, 42mm x 1.4 pitch ( next up the chain) and I just want to make sure I have all the settings.
The motors are 4092's 2140 kv (44,000 rpm theory no load).I am guessing on a calmer wind day, and tweaking the battery placement, it could reach 60mph. Just glad you guys helped me figure this out! Nothing more frustrating than to spend a bunch of money and have it fall on its face and not know why or what to do!

try the TFL 43mm prop and the 1450. the 43mm is actually 43.7mm and the 1450 is 45mm in real life. Their pitch listed also doesnt seem correct. IDK whats up with that but they're $10 each and they are fast. I think you have plenty of motor for those bigger props.

Im totally not worthy to give setup advice, especially about cats, but Ive seen people use motorcycle wheel weights in the front of the hull to help keep the front down. maybe something that would help with your wind situation.

EDIT: NM you need reverse direction also...

[jkflow]

Yes, you are doing it right and in the right order.
The 42mm will get you in the 65mph range. Stay away from CNC props for this setup, I blew through3 CNC props, they simply do not hold up on 6S with this kV motor.
Get the equivalents in better materials. It will give you some joy, next step up to 44 mm or the equivalents, but heat and amps will start to become an issue.
Do small incremental steps and get used to it, it's tons of fun, but you need to learn your boat before going all out. You can get this to 100+ with just a set of props, but there is much more to it and Operator training is the biggest hurdle.

[Notoriousone]

I have a Zonda with the Seaking 180's and SSS 4092 2140kv motors. You can calibrate dual esc's with no power switch like the Seaking 180's at the same time, its very easy to do.. Unplug the Y cable that the ESC's are connected with from the receiver. Connect batteries to esc's, turn on transmitter, hold full throttle, then plug the Y cable back into the receiver. As soon as it powers up you will hear the two beeps immediately, from both esc's at the same time. Release throttle to neutral, hear the single confirmation beep from both esc's and its done, your good to go. I've heard of calibrating dual esc setups one at a time but this is how I do it, and it has worked great for me