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Steven Vaccaro
02-06-2009, 03:34 PM
This stimulus plan is a waste of our money. Why not use the money to bring manufacturing back to the USA. Give giant tax cuts or even to subsidize factories/machineshops and companies that actually build a product in the USA. Subsidize moving families to rural areas of the country where these companies can start up cheaply. Its time for America to wake up and become a country of builders again, instead of just consumers.

calcagno45
02-06-2009, 04:06 PM
"Its a spending bill" said President Obama....

We'll since when spending on sod, STD protection, new cars for the White House, etc. going to stimulate the economy. Like everyone is stating, its a bill where every Congressman has promised money to someone or somewhere, they are finally getting that money. However, its just going to create a larger deficit and stimulant Congress, thats it.

Some of the provisions and Amendments to the bill may well be worth it. Like these examples:
- "Making Work Pay" tax credit: giving 500 or 1000 to the working class. Thanks I'll take that.
- First Time Home Ownder Credit: some want to increase it all the way up to $15,000. Man, I might buy a home now.
- Plenty of Energy Tax credits
- Extending the Bonus Depreciation for a business a year: Sure helps when you can expense 50% of the basis in the first year.
- 5 Yr Net Op Loss Carryback: Want to extend it from 2 years to 5 yrs. This may help a lot of people take care of the operating losses suffered in 2008.
- Extension of Tax Code Section 179 another year: expensing capital expenditures up to $500,000 will help lots of business expand and grow when buying new equipment or facilities.
- increase Gift and Estate tax exclusion from 2mil to 3.5mil: I can see a lot of older people dying soon....

If they can get rid of all the added crap and fat on the bill, it would stimule the economy. But we have to spend 300Bil just to pay interest we owe China so they will continue to loan us money. We'll never become an independant, wealthy nation again unless we realize the facts that stare us in the face and work on it.

On a side note: We NEED TERM LIMITS! Thats a large part of the problem. Some may argue that it takes so long to get the ball rolling that the term limit is there before they can do anything. However, I feel that term limits will stimulate Congress and make our Congressman want to actually get things moving and work for the people they represent. It will also get rid of the Ted Kennedy's that are passing out at functions and have no clue how to help the economy. We need to get fresh new faces in the every 2 terms and help America revive itself.

Darin Jordan
02-06-2009, 04:20 PM
$87-million dollars for a new Ice Breaker...

Ummmm... If global warming is really happening... WHY would we need an Ice Breaker?? The ice is suppose to all be melting, right???

If you are going to argue that this is stimulus... at least get your stories to mesh... :olleyes:

ghostofpf1
02-06-2009, 04:26 PM
Some of these folks had no problem with the 700 billion bailout...the trillion + spent on the failed wars...now yer griping about spending money that will hopefully impact the avg Joe in a positive manner...nope no partisan politics here :doh:

Steve :tiphat:

Darin Jordan
02-06-2009, 04:32 PM
...now yer griping about spending money that will hopefully impact the avg Joe in a positive manner...

I can list for you LINE and LINE after LINE of items being spent on in this bill that won't stimulate a THING. Won't create a job... Won't do much of anything...

Can you do the same for things that WILL???

Time to stop rhetoric, and start listing some facts...

If being "non-partison" means just blindly agreeing with whatever our current govenment thinks is priority, then YES, I'm partison... I think for myself and am proud of it... No Kool-Aide here... Never has been, never will be...

Steven Vaccaro
02-06-2009, 05:09 PM
Some of these folks had no problem with the 700 billion bailout...the trillion + spent on the failed wars...now yer griping about spending money that will hopefully impact the avg Joe in a positive manner...nope no partisan politics here :doh:

Steve :tiphat:

Please explain to me how average Joe will be impacted by O's SPENDING plan? We are going to be spent to death.

Also since you decided to jump on my manufacturing thread, please tell me why my idea wouldn't work?

Darin Jordan
02-06-2009, 05:27 PM
Its time for America to wake up and become a country of builders again, instead of just consumers.

Steven, what's even more ironic, and irritating about the ideas of the left, is that, while they acknowledge that our economies are "consumer driven", they don't apparently think that US keeping and spending our OWN MONEY helps that out...

I want to know when people are going to wake up and realize that FREEDOM is at stake here. I do NOT think the government knows better than I do how I should spend my money... MY hard earned and fought for money...

Flying Scotsman
02-06-2009, 05:53 PM
Steven, what's even more ironic, and irritating about the ideas of the left, is that, while they acknowledge that our economies are "consumer driven", they don't apparently think that US keeping and spending our OWN MONEY helps that out...

I want to know when people are going to wake up and realize that FREEDOM is at stake here. I do NOT think the government knows better than I do how I should spend my money... MY hard earned and fought for money...

I hate to say it lads the communists have won. China will be the engine that drives the world economy. We have sat on our fat asses too long. A changing of the guard...China..India..Malaysia..Indonesia even Russia. The Old World..Greece..Rome..France..Spain..Britain..USA.. .all we do is it have a love affair about our past glories.

Douggie

calcagno45
02-06-2009, 06:35 PM
Some of these folks had no problem with the 700 billion bailout...the trillion + spent on the failed wars...now yer griping about spending money that will hopefully impact the avg Joe in a positive manner...nope no partisan politics here :doh:

Steve :tiphat:

I wasn't for that waste of money then, and I'm not for this waste of money now. Especially now, the costs of this bill are just rising as these Congressman just add fat onto the bill.

How is providing STD prevention going to stimulate the economy? Ask Palosi

If they want to stimulate the economy, give the tax cuts or refund to those who actually paid taxes. Give incentives for those to spend the money here and loacally. Cut the corporate tax rate so corporations can begin to pick themselves up which in turn would pick up and stimulate the rest of the economy....

Parts of O's spending plan is to allocate money to those who don't pay taxes. Great so more people collecting on the system, sitting on their porches, and driving Cadillacs. Exactly what we need.

Where did the first money go? I don't see many people being approved and getting this money in loans. Hell, there's no borrowing going on. I htalked to a client of mine that has a credit score of 760 and got rejected on a car loan for $30K. What the hell?

egneg
02-06-2009, 06:54 PM
Saw this the other day and I thought it held a lot of truth ...


To All My Valued Employees

There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country.

However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests. First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a Back Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

However, what you don't see is the BACK STORY :
I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.
My diet consisted of Ramen noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

Meanwhile, my friends went to jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $30K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 60's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.
So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a one year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... You never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices I've made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade and a half of my life for.

Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds. Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch.

The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

The fact is, if I deducted (read: stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.
When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.
So where am I going with all this?

It's quite simple.
If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more.

Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs wi ll be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

So, if you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about....

Signed, THE BOSS

ghostofpf1
02-06-2009, 07:07 PM
Please explain to me how average Joe will be impacted by O's SPENDING plan? We are going to be spent to death.

Also since you decided to jump on my manufacturing thread, please tell me why my idea wouldn't work?

We have already been spent to death on useless war efforts and bailing out big business under the prior admins watch :thumbsdown:

Sorry....what manufacturing thread are you talking about ?? :help:
Steve

Steven Vaccaro
02-06-2009, 08:34 PM
We have already been spent to death on useless war efforts and bailing out big business under the prior admins watch :thumbsdown:

Sorry....what manufacturing thread are you talking about ?? :help:
Steve


Ah the blame game. I should have known an answer like that was coming, for the simple reason that if Obama plays that game why shouldn't his herd.

What a crock of crap this is, "I found this deficit when I showed up". Seems by his campaign speeches that he knew about the problem for several months. If he wasn't man enough to take the heat, he should have quit.

Steven Vaccaro
02-06-2009, 08:38 PM
Egneg, nice post. But imagine the gaul (spelling?) of that company owner. He actually wants to keep his profits? Shouldn't he be working for the greater good of the country and pay everything he makes to the government? :sarcasm1:

ghostofpf1
02-06-2009, 09:17 PM
Ah the blame game. I should have known an answer like that was coming, for the simple reason that if Obama plays that game why shouldn't his herd.

What a crock of crap this is, "I found this deficit when I showed up". Seems by his campaign speeches that he knew about the problem for several months. If he wasn't man enough to take the heat, he should have quit.

If the shoe fits....:tongue_smilie:


When did Obama say he only just two weeks ago realized that this nation has huge deficits on multiple fronts ??:help:
Still wondering which "Manufacturing thread" I dissed you in :confused1:

Steve

raptor347
02-06-2009, 09:35 PM
I don't usually get into these discussions!

Steven,
Amen to building things here again. We can build anything if we set our minds to it.

Look at our hobby as a representative cross section of our society. Very few are willing to dedicate themselves to being able to make it from scratch. I've been active in the modeling since I was 5 years old (I've played with just about everything except indoor freeflight). The whole time watching the ability of the average modeler dwindle to the point of being operators rather than modelers. There is a reason I like to play at the extreme ends of the hobby, you can't buy everything and the people who play there are generally very capable/motivated! I'm not saying there aren't capable people out there everywhere, just not in the numbers we once had.

The same can be seen in all areas of society. We've become a nation of fat, lazy observers who feel the world owes them something (generalization here). If WWII occured with todays society we'd be speaking Japanese and German when it was over.

At the end of the day you need to have produced something from your work. At the same time, if what you produced isn't a descent value, don't be suprised if nobody wants it (look at car sales last month, Subaru and Hyundai made the only gains).

The current housing/financial nightmare has been coming for 40 years now. Both parties are guilty of running the country pretty poorly. Greedy individuals, big business and the government all share responsibility. Greed and sub-prime loans. Why are we suprised by the failures?

A couple I know just lost their house, I have no pity. The upgraded houses every 18 months while the boom was going. The last house was $800k+ with a nasty balloon payment. Oops, the bubble burst and they can't sell it. Now explain to me how a nurse and teacher with 2 kids should be in that house in the first place. The original house they bought 6 years ago was small (OK, the size of the place I grew up in) but nice and roughly $220k. Greed, bigger, better, more. This was the same couple who gave my wife and I a bad time for moving to Oregon and buying a "cheap" house with a fixed mortgage we could afford (do you know how hard it was to get a fixed rate loan in 2005).

The spending package won't fix anything in the long run. You can't spend your way to prosperity. The values of our society need a serious overhaul.

Don't get me started on education.

NorthernBoater
02-06-2009, 09:38 PM
I think this quote by Adrian Rogers pretty sums everything up.

"What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

Steven Vaccaro
02-06-2009, 09:42 PM
This thread started as why we dont bring manufacturing back to the USA?

"Why not use the money to bring manufacturing back to the USA. Give giant tax cuts or even to subsidize factories/machineshops and companies that actually build a product in the USA. Subsidize moving families to rural areas of the country where these companies can start up cheaply. Its time for America to wake up and become a country of builders again, instead of just consumers."

I enjoy a good debate. Keep up the good work for the left. :doh:

As far as I'm concerned whats happened in the past is done. What we do about our future is now. The left can't seem to let go. Somehow they have been forever emotionally hurt by Bush. I don't like this present governments plans for my future.

We all want Change. But all I see is a new guy in the old seat with the same old faces around him, making the decisions for him.

Now I'm literally going up stairs to watch a movie with my wife and some :popcorn2:.

detox
02-06-2009, 10:47 PM
I thought this was good:


No need to thank me...

Stimulus Package explaned;


Sometime this year, taxpayers will receive an Economic
Stimulus Payment.
This is a very exciting new program that I will explain using the Q and A format:

Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.

Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.

Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. No, they are borrowing it from China .
Your children are expected to repay the Chinese.

Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a
High-definition TV set, thus stimulating the economy.

Q. But isn't that stimulating the economy of China ?
A. Shut up.

Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the
US economy by spending your stimulus check wisely:

If you spend that money at Wal-Mart, all
The money will go to China .

If you spend it on gasoline it will go to
Hugo Chavez, the Arabs and Al Queda

If you purchase a computer it will go to
Taiwan .

If you purchase fruit and vegetables it
will go to Mexico , Honduras , and Guatemala (unless you
Buy organic).

If you buy a car it will go to Japan and Korea .

If you purchase prescription drugs it will
Go to India

If you purchase heroin it will go to the
Taliban in Afghanistan

If you give it to a charitable cause, it will go to Nigeria .

And none of it will help the American economy. We
Need to keep that money here in America . You can keep the
Money in America by spending it at yard sales, going to a
Baseball game, or spend it on prostitutes, beer (domestic
ONLY), tattoos,or BBY Boats since those are the only businesses
in the USA.

AndyKunz
02-06-2009, 10:54 PM
Steve,

Popcorn is an American product. EAT MORE! Movies are (generally) American products - at least until the Chinese start pirating them. WATCH MORE!

:D

Northern - I wish Adrian Rogers was still around. I've got quite a few of his sermons on CD. Great guy!

Andy

NorthernBoater
02-06-2009, 11:26 PM
"Why not use the money to bring manufacturing back to the USA. Give giant tax cuts or even to subsidize factories/machineshops and companies that actually build a product in the USA. Subsidize moving families to rural areas of the country where these companies can start up cheaply. Its time for America to wake up and become a country of builders again, instead of just consumers."


:iagree: I think in order to recover from this we need to bring our manufacturing back to the US. We need to hold other countries to the same environmental and labor standards we hold our factories to. If you don't follow this then we don't let your product in. It should not be cheaper to cut our trees down, send them over to China to print books and then send them back!!

RCprince
02-07-2009, 03:38 AM
Give every house hold a million bucks, that will stimulate the economy.

RCprince
02-07-2009, 04:25 AM
"Why not use the money to bring manufacturing back to the USA. Give giant tax cuts or even to subsidize factories/machineshops and companies that actually build a product in the USA. Subsidize moving families to rural areas of the country where these companies can start up cheaply. Its time for America to wake up and become a country of builders again, instead of just consumers."


Steve, I feel your passion and agree, but the titanic has already sailed, there is no way your gonna get these MYspace, Facebook, MTV, BET watching, Text messaging generation to do hard work (Girl's 22,795 text messages in a month nothing to celebrate http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/38278)

We've favored convenience and these days and future days to come will have us bearing the consequences. NAFTA/GATT, was the end of the U.S. we export nothing and import everything, that's a serious National Security issue, if I've ever seen one. Importing raw material from our so called enemies to build our military equipment and infrastructure. But as long as they can keep us fighting about who's Democrats and Republican (last time I checked, I was born neither).

Kill the Income Tax, and Introduce a National Sales tax.

Punisher 67
02-07-2009, 02:45 PM
Great topic and discussion , I'll just keep eating some Orville redenbacher :popcorn2: while I read

Brian I have to agree with you and relate to the do it yourself modeling scene , I just don't see as much skill out their as we once had , for me it always started with my imagination and the will to make it real.......:tiphat:

Steven Vaccaro
02-07-2009, 04:03 PM
Steve, I feel your passion and agree, but the titanic has already sailed, there is no way your gonna get these MYspace, Facebook, MTV, BET watching, Text messaging generation to do hard work (Girl's 22,795 text messages in a month nothing to celebrate http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/38278)

We've favored convenience and these days and future days to come will have us bearing the consequences. NAFTA/GATT, was the end of the U.S. we export nothing and import everything, that's a serious National Security issue, if I've ever seen one. Importing raw material from our so called enemies to build our military equipment and infrastructure. But as long as they can keep us fighting about who's Democrats and Republican (last time I checked, I was born neither).

Kill the Income Tax, and Introduce a National Sales tax.

I'm up for a vat tax. But imagine all the accountants and irs agents that will be on unemployment! That may bankrupt the entire system! :banana:

RCprince
02-07-2009, 04:44 PM
Great topic and discussion , I'll just keep eating some Orville redenbacher :popcorn2: while I read

Brian I have to agree with you and relate to the do it yourself modeling scene , I just don't see as much skill out their as we once had , for me it always started with my imagination and the will to make it real.......:tiphat:


I do everything for myself, from networking computers(Which I went to school for Network Engineering to building homes( construction, plumbing, electrical, carpentry, etc) Automobile mechanic (from rebuilding transmissions, to brake jobs; with the exception of rebuilding and engine fingers crossed one has never died on me). I started working at 11 years old because my mother didn't want to buy me a pair of sneakers I wanted.

I asked my landlord back in NY if he need help to keep the building clean and he started me with 5 dollars and hour back in 1981. Everyday after school I would sweep the halls and make sure all the trash was off the properties and the garbage was out and on weekends he would take me with him and his 4 sons to his other properties to remodels and do maintenance. From there he and my uncle taught me how to run the boilers in the buildings, I had to make sure the oil level was enough to last the the week or month and if not reorder, sometimes I had to get up 4am to prime to boiler, all this from the age of 11 to 16, those were the days.

They taught me the greatest lesson in life, and that's DO FOR SELF. Sometimes my friends and neighbors look at me like how the hell do you do all that stuff and my answer is simple "When you depend on people, they let you down, if you do for self, you may cut the piece of wood wrong twice or so, but in the end you taught yourself to fish, rather than being given a fish everyday for the rest of your life.

Darin Jordan
02-07-2009, 04:54 PM
Here's a stimulus plan for you...

Stop taking my money for your pet projects and let me keep it to pay my mortgage, buy a new car, pay for my kid's school of MY CHOOSING, put food on my table, buy Christmas gifts for my family, pay for hobby bits and pieces, maybe take a vacation...

There, I just stimulated the mortgage industry, the car industry, took the burdon of education for my kids off the government, helped the farmers and dairy ranchers and grocery stores, put money into manufacturing and distribution and retail outlets, boosted up manufacturers and importers, and helped out the tourism industry...

Sorry... I know... I know you are right... I didn't help anyone get free condoms or pay for sod research or ... What can you do??? :sarcasm1: :sarcasm1: :sarcasm1:


STIMULUS Package??? Give me a break.... :olleyes: :olleyes:

AndyKunz
02-07-2009, 09:39 PM
I'm up for a vat tax. But imagine all the accountants and irs agents that will be on unemployment! That may bankrupt the entire system! :banana:

Are you kidding?! It will create MORE work for them. You have to accurately track "added value" for every component. It's a nightmare.

I got a better idea - why not limit government to its original purpose: providing a trustworthy structure to define acceptable behavior and punish criminals, and to provide for mutual defense. Get them out of the day care business, the education business, the healthcare business, the anti-poverty business, etc. With all the extra money those who WORK have, there will be plenty to "spend" and it won't take a Ted Kennedy to do it.

Andy

Steven Vaccaro
02-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Are you kidding?! It will create MORE work for them. You have to accurately track "added value" for every component. It's a nightmare.

I got a better idea - why not limit government to its original purpose: providing a trustworthy structure to define acceptable behavior and punish criminals, and to provide for mutual defense. Get them out of the day care business, the education business, the healthcare business, the anti-poverty business, etc. With all the extra money those who WORK have, there will be plenty to "spend" and it won't take a Ted Kennedy to do it.

Andy


I didnt think of that :confused1:

I have a funny story. Last week my local news paper posted the top 20 highest paid town workers. Mostly police and firemen. Total wages were anywhere from 120k -155k. Keep in mind that base pay is between 40-50k, and the rest overtime and local overtime details. We could have easily hired an extra guy or two and saved money. This same thing happens each year :cursing: