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Darin Jordan
11-13-2018, 02:41 PM
As of now, the Pro Boat line of Motors that are currently listed as legal NAMBA P-LIMITED motors are NO LONGER AVAILABLE.

From what I can tell, of the listed motors, the ONLY motor now available to purchase new (from the manufacturer) for P-LTD is the AQ UL-1 2030KV motor. I tried searching for the 1500KV SV27 motor, but I don't see it as available on Tower. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


162558

T.S.Davis
11-13-2018, 02:49 PM
BTW, the 2000 motor that comes in the Veles and the UL19 is not NAMBA legal but is still available. Although they look the same, the motors from the list are not manufactured by the same company that makes the 2k for Proboat. The company that made the old 1500/1800's is not making motors any longer. My understanding.

Steven Vaccaro
11-13-2018, 03:01 PM
The list is dwindling. Time for change.

trigger
11-13-2018, 04:57 PM
Oh boy :popcorn2:

photohoward1
11-13-2018, 05:02 PM
Woohoo. Winter entertainment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doug Smock
11-13-2018, 05:05 PM
Woohoo. Winter entertainment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL I'm out!!

T.S.Davis
11-14-2018, 04:42 PM
Unrelated to limited exactly. What are the ERCU boys going to do? They have zero 10th scale motors at this point that are legal from the book.

We've been tossing around running them on the size spec and forget it. The 1500 was the go to but if ya can't get it anymore. It's not like we have hundreds of them.

HTVboats
11-14-2018, 04:43 PM
I agree for stability of the class some change in needed ASAP. Hard to promote new racers with the present options. We are entering the 2019 season shortly. Who actually makes the list? Can a committee update the current list or does it require proposals and a membership vote? Right here OSE sells a variety of 3660 size motors at reasonable prices yet they are not legal. (TP, Leopard, SSS).
Mic

T.S.Davis
11-14-2018, 05:14 PM
Has to be voted on in NAMBA. Typically after being run for a year.

raptor347
11-14-2018, 05:42 PM
A proposal is in the works.

T.S.Davis
11-14-2018, 05:57 PM
You should be able to leave yer flame suit at home Brian. We all know what the right thing to do is. Multiple locals are already running it with almost no controversy. Should be a no brainer at this point.

Doby
11-14-2018, 08:13 PM
Where's Dave????

Doug Smock
11-14-2018, 09:54 PM
Where's Dave????

Anybody live near Doby!?!?!?:bash::laugh:

dethow
11-14-2018, 11:02 PM
Hey Guys.... LOL

You won't be hearing from me on this.
No IMPBA, No NAMBA, and No MMEU.
I have no place to discuss this what so ever since I will no longer be racing with any organizations.

But I'm sure NAMBA will get it right... at least they understand they need rules in the books in order to give out National Championship titles. :moon:

Darin Jordan
11-15-2018, 10:42 AM
My understanding is that, after realizing what can be done inside of a 62mm or even the 61.2mm can that I originally suggested (based on measuring all of the potential motors we were testing), the limits are being proposed at 37mm x 60.0mm. LOTS of motors available in this range. ALL of the current P-LTD Motors fit inside this range. One would think this would do the trick. One should also be certain that some won't be happy with it. Can't make everyone happy.

Darin Jordan
11-15-2018, 10:46 AM
And, I too agree that it's silly that this rule-set is NOT in the rulebooks for IMPBA. HOWEVER, I think it was wise to NOT put the CURRENT NAMBA Ruleset into IMPBA rules. Too Vague, as we've found out, and not sustainable, as the subject of my post proves.

Defining the class based on a motor dimension, however. Rock Solid, sustainable, TECH'ABLE, and COMPETITIVE. Rule is BLACK and WHITE. No inarguable reason why it shouldn't be official, especially since it's sustaining FE Racing in both organizations.

But, I'm just a member. I'll let the powers-that-be sort all that out.

T.S.Davis
11-15-2018, 11:30 AM
There's no down side to a weight restriction either. Keeps honest people honest. The likely hood that someone will protest a motor and force weighing it is so slim it's virtually non existent.

We've had the "as manufactured" in the book since inception despite the fact that very very few people even COULD have verified it. "Well....... it's in a gold can must be legal" Guess how many protests to verify "as manufactured" there have been since limited was penned?..............ZERO! No motor protests. Ever. So all the tech fear is unwarranted. The weight would simply be a point for builders to stay under. You know if you're out there on the edge. The type of racer that would max out that part of the spec is versed well enough to build accordingly for easy tech.

It's like the 65% trans rule. You rarely have to check that. When you're building a sporty though.......you use that as a guide.

Darin Jordan
11-15-2018, 11:50 AM
Just me speaking, and I don't have anything to do with the current proposal that's in the works, outside of all my initial testing and research, but the weight thing makes people "feel good", but really adds a lot of "gray area" to the rules.

I'm for keeping it simple, and not requiring that a boat be torn-down to verify legality.

Darin Jordan
11-15-2018, 02:58 PM
Then again... I've been wrong before... :blink:

162560

162561

T.S.Davis
11-15-2018, 03:27 PM
Wouldn't the time required to build those monstrosities be better spent turning laps? Or maybe getting a boat to run free and clear?

Darin Jordan
11-15-2018, 03:52 PM
Wouldn't the time required to build those monstrosities be better spent turning laps? Or maybe getting a boat to run free and clear?

Certainly... or understanding how to prep and tweak your own props...

There are negative side-effects to all the above... like, how do you effectively water-cool them??

longballlumber
11-15-2018, 04:41 PM
As Darin has already pointed out; they will need to be cooled... Those showed up on IW a while back. The more I've had time to digest it the less those scare me. The core group of motors being used are far shorter and lighter than any of the current limits.

The weight thing was a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

In retrospect, the thing I find funny now is we immediately made the jump to 5.5mm connectors on the motor side.... why? more, more, more It sure would make things interesting if we included a specification for a max diameter on the motor connectors and a requirement to leave one solder joint exposed. LOL we are using connectors that accept 8-10 gauge wire, but the stock controllers (we started with) used 12-14 gauge wire? Just an observation.

ray schrauwen
11-15-2018, 05:21 PM
LOL I'm out!!

I don't blame you sir.

ray schrauwen
11-15-2018, 05:24 PM
Anybody live near Doby!?!?!?:bash::laugh:

Me. I'll take care of him. He flies planes mostly now so it will give me target practice with my pellet gun. :)

Doug Smock
11-15-2018, 06:04 PM
Me. I'll take care of him. He flies planes mostly now so it will give me target practice with my pellet gun. :)

Thanks Ray!:thumbup1::laugh:

Rookieboater
11-15-2018, 07:31 PM
The proposal should be to allow the "NAMBA BOD" to make changes to the "Approved List" based on the criteria already in the rules. The Electric chairman can recommend what motors should be added to the list. That way they can be updated on an annual or bi- annual basis. Real Simple.
No other guidelines need to be added.

JMHO

Doug Smock
11-15-2018, 07:43 PM
As Darin has already pointed out; they will need to be cooled... Those showed up on IW a while back. The more I've had time to digest it the less those scare me. The core group of motors being used are far shorter and lighter than any of the current limits.

The weight thing was a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

In retrospect, the thing I find funny now is we immediately made the jump to 5.5mm connectors on the motor side.... why? more, more, more It sure would make things interesting if we included a specification for a max diameter on the motor connectors and a requirement to leave one solder joint exposed. LOL we are using connectors that accept 8-10 gauge wire, but the stock controllers (we started with) used 12-14 gauge wire? Just an observation.

I think to maintain "The motor is the fuse" mentality the connectors had to be changed to keep the failure inside the can where it belongs.:laugh: Just playin fellas, I couldn't help it, sorry... :hug1:

rayzerdesigns
11-15-2018, 08:27 PM
For the record.. yes the proposal is written.. will be voted at d19 year end meeting with the assumption if it passes that it be sent to national ASAP.. I see both sides of the weight thing.. but the size limit is a clear black and white. No need to even pull motor out and weigh it.. it either fits or not..the weight leaves a lot of grey area..will it be the solve all?? Maybe not.. but in NAMBA land.. we have one motor available now..in all fairness to that.. one motor is honestly the only way to make p limited 100% fair.. but we’ve had that discussion..I hope the new proposal passed and the bid at NAMBA will pass it.. and maybe even impba will accept it.. would be great to have both organizations have the same rules for some fe classes.. might make traveling to more races for all seem more doable.. and for those of you asking about me Newlands whereabouts.. trust me he is here watching.. lol.. and I credit him for the wording of the new proposal

T.S.Davis
11-16-2018, 08:21 AM
The proposal should be to allow the "NAMBA BOD" to make changes to the "Approved List" based on the criteria already in the rules. The Electric chairman can recommend what motors should be added to the list. That way they can be updated on an annual or bi- annual basis. Real Simple.
No other guidelines need to be added.

JMHO

Slew of things wrong with that.

You have to keep revisiting it.
You have to cater to brands.
You may well need to test new motors.
We already KNOW they can be rewound. Can ya tell a factory from a rewind? On site, at a race, with normal humans tools?
Can you tell if the bearings were changed? Check the bearing serial numbers I guess.

Adding to the list just perpetuates what was wrong with the rules all along. It's whats wrong with scale in both orgs. Untechable nonsense.

Length x width x weight doesnt need to be interpreted, updated, reviewed, revisted........ever.

The limited rules held up for a long time but not because we got it right. It held up because we had or heads in the sand.

zooma
11-16-2018, 09:43 AM
BTW, the 2000 motor that comes in the Veles and the UL19 is not NAMBA legal but is still available. Although they look the same, the motors from the list are not manufactured by the same company that makes the 2k for Proboat. The company that made the old 1500/1800's is not making motors any longer. My understanding.

I thought this was judged to be NAMBA legal, earlier this year. A couple of us switched to it for local club racing. Runs great and comes back cool. So, we couldn't use it for a NAMBA event at another club, eh?

rayzerdesigns
11-16-2018, 09:46 AM
I thought this was judged to be NAMBA legal, earlier this year. A couple of us switched to it for local club racing. Runs great and comes back cool. So, we couldn't use it for a NAMBA event at another club, eh?

They were legal at the club level.. and the 2000 was added for the nationals in Dallas.. the proposal being submitted both of these motors will be legal..

rayzerdesigns
11-16-2018, 09:49 AM
Terry u still need to sell me on the weight thing.. I just don’t see why it’s necessary..I see both sides.. but nothing has been proven to me why it should be added..if the size is right why have to pull and weigh?? To many variances on what are the rules for the weight... wire length.. plugs on or off... I’m not 100% against it.. just trying to figure out the thinking behind it

HTVboats
11-16-2018, 10:39 AM
36X60 would surely open up the current list and should eliminate the need for a weight limitation. My question is will there be any grace on dimensions? 36.00-60.00 exactly or a small percentage say 1/4-1/2% for manufacturing tolerances or calibration discrepancy?
1/2% - 60 X 1.005 is 60.30. 36 X 1.005 is 36.18 (1/4% would be 36.09 X 60.15mm) Hope this doesn't create to much discussion.
Mic

T.S.Davis
11-16-2018, 11:09 AM
Consider this Ray..... New motor comes along with a rotor made with some unobtainum core. Same size but more power because it's simply more dense. Retooling the fleet.......ugh....again? Keeping someone from coming up with something nutty is the only reason for the weight limit. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Doubt it.

We've been through the HOW to do the weight thing already. Bare motor with no connectors under 265. Build accordingly. A motor is not it's connectors, or the jacket, or the coupler.

All THAT said..........lose the weight aspect and it does become crazy easy to tech forever and ever amen. I have a gauge I keep in my toolbox to check.

The truth of the matter on the motors........we've had the loosey goosey rules for nearly a decade. Despite the rule being very nearly un-techable we didn't see or hear of guys trying to skirt the rules too bad. There was modifying the shrink wrap on the gold motors and that a was about it. Did that myself till asked not to by Dave. I also water cooled the wires. That worked sorta.

So is someone going to spend a lot of time finding a rotor of high density frankincense and myrrh? Proly not.

Tolerances is how we ended up at 62. That's when guys went crazy with machined motors from the next size larger family of motors. We all need to just find a dim that makes sense and live with it. If it's 60.1 x 36.2 then so be it.

rayzerdesigns
11-16-2018, 03:05 PM
36X60 would surely open up the current list and should eliminate the need for a weight limitation. My question is will there be any grace on dimensions? 36.00-60.00 exactly or a small percentage say 1/4-1/2% for manufacturing tolerances or calibration discrepancy?
1/2% - 60 X 1.005 is 60.30. 36 X 1.005 is 36.18 (1/4% would be 36.09 X 60.15mm) Hope this doesn't create to much discussion.
Mic

No leeway.. it will be 37x60 for namba proposal.. either it fits or it’s not legal..I get what ur saying terry btw..

longballlumber
11-16-2018, 03:14 PM
Curious, what motors fit in the 60mm limit that doesn’t fit in a 56.5mm limit AND is currently being raced on a regular basis?

dethow
11-16-2018, 09:41 PM
Curious, what motors fit in the 60mm limit that doesn’t fit in a 56.5mm limit AND is currently being raced on a regular basis?

Well, since no one else wants to answer Mike. Or maybe I'm the only one without a life on a Friday night :unsure:

TP 3630 - Being raced in many boats. And a great option at $85.
OSE Raider 3660 - Not sure on how many being raced, but I'm sure some. And a great option at $75.
SSS 3660 - Comes stock in the TFL Pursuit, so probably is and/or will be in many. And a great option at $55.
Leopard 3660 - Not sure on how many being raced, but I'm sure some. And a great option at $53.

And at 60mm there is some room to play for future motors in RTR boats. That way you all don't have people spending $400+ on a boat and then having to change out a motor in order to race.

:welcome:

longballlumber
11-16-2018, 10:44 PM
Well, since no one else wants to answer Mike. Or maybe I'm the only one without a life on a Friday night :unsure:

TP 3630 - Being raced in many boats. And a great option at $85.

From the data that was collected, the TP motors ranged from 59mm in length down to 57.6mm in length. Another note: these motors are significantly heavier when compared to the standard ProBoat and AquaCraft motors.


OSE Raider 3660 - Not sure on how many being raced, but I'm sure some. And a great option at $75.

Yes, this motor is a bit on the longer side of the motors currently being used. I've never personally used one, but I do recall others suggesting this motor wasn't quite as good as the others.


SSS 3660 - Comes stock in the TFL Pursuit, so probably is and/or will be in many. And a great option at $55.

Got it, didn't realize this came in a RTR Pursuit. However, if the limit is set at 60mm MAX if they are slightly over they will be illegal.


Leopard 3660 - Not sure on how many being raced, but I'm sure some. And a great option at $53.

I think it was found out very early in the process the Leopard's don't cut the mustard. I couldn't and wouldn't recommend one to a new boater with a good conscious.


And at 60mm there is some room to play for future motors in RTR boats. That way you all don't have people spending $400+ on a boat and then having to change out a motor in order to race.

:welcome:

So they are going from 62mm to 60mm. Does that REALLY get the class into a safe place? Just trying to understand how 60mm was established and what criteria was used to determine it to be THE dim.

dethow
11-16-2018, 11:17 PM
So they are going from 62mm to 60mm. Does that REALLY get the class into a safe place? Just trying to understand how 60mm was established and what criteria was used to determine it to be THE dim.

I REALLY want try and stay out of this, but I can't resist answering your questions.

1.) Does 60mm REALLY get the class into a safe place? Unknown.
That will be a matter of opinion which voters will decide.

2.) How was 60mm established and what criteria was used to determine it?
I'd assume the years of discussions that have been taking place. I think it was deemed 62mm was too much based on easy modification of larger motors to fit but yet this still allows the widest range possibles for current and future motors with the least amount of possible Frankenstein motors affecting parity. The weight limit is the other safe guard against Frankenstein motors.

Mike, at the end of the day there is no silver bullet in this discussion. There are probably many good points to what you will obviously be lobbing for which is a 56.5mm limit. Why don't you plead your case on why you think it should be limited to 56.5mm instead of 60mm and then let the NAMBA voters make there choice.

Your never ending desire to find the silver bullet answer doesn't seem to exist since no one including yourself has figured that out over this many year process of discussions. These questions have been asked and asked. Time to let it all go and let progress pursue.

I think what you (as IMPBA FE director) need to consider is that motors in the 60mm area are not out performing the ones under 56.5mm. So why not include them so that there is less chance of having to revisit this down the road and less chance that RTR purchasers will have to change out motors in order to race?

But that's just my 2 cents as I've been closely involved in most of the motor discussions over the past few years. I do think it'd be great to hear from Ray and maybe even Newland with answers to their process and if they maybe agree with you and don't really see a big enough reason to push to 60mm and maybe 56.5mm is enough.

I do see where this is going thou... and I see your point. There are 2 choices here (probably in your point of view):
1.) Go with 37mm x 60mm with a 265grams weight limit to protect against a Frankenstein motor that would affect parity.
2.) Go with 36.5mm x 56.5mm with NO weight limit which will basically eliminate any chance of a Frankenstein motor that would affect parity.

I'm again REALLY going to try and back out of this discussion. Sorry for getting involved at all. Did my best to stay non confrontational and I look forward to all this stuff getting voted on so the questions and discussions can end.

:welcome:

rayzerdesigns
11-16-2018, 11:28 PM
Mr Ball
Testing has been done and I don’t remember where the big list of motors that fit the criteria is in these forums.. the reasoning for the 60 mm is to keep the higher power neu 1415s out of the equation.. and also to not limit to too few motors..talking with a lot of people here on NMba side this is a consensus of what we have come up with.. and on December 9th we will vote on it here in district 19..with the assumption that it passes it will be forwarded to the BOD to approve at the national level..Is it going to be perfect?? Who knows yet.. but we all know the 62mm was too long.. as for the weight idea being talked about.. most we have talked to agree that for ease of tech to just go with simple size..something has to be done on the Namba side as we are basically down to one motor now..I’m Not saying this is the perfect answer but we are moving forward..it would be great to have both organizations have the same rule set for limited.. heck even all fe classes.. maybe that would help more people travel to different races..sorry for rambling.. hope this explains a little..

Doug Smock
11-17-2018, 09:18 AM
Smh...

HTVboats
11-17-2018, 10:25 AM
A while back I did a test with a 29" Mean Machine cat. Hitec radio with GPS and Castle ESC for data logging. Older AQ (good ones) 1800 & 2030, SSS3660-2070, TP 3660-2200,Leopard 3660-X2 2340. leopard 3660-2050. Same Batteries and prop. Maybe 2 MPH difference and watts also similar. The Leo X2-2340 fastest but that's higher KV with the same prop. Just an FYI yes I have seen some Leopard failures with 40mm motors. My LEO 3660's at $53 are in my spec mono and cat plus my grandson's spec boats. No problems yet and going to the races. The 2340 LEO runs very well in a Kep's rigger spinning a cut 1450.
Looking back at Darrin Jordans testing with 36mm motors it appears they are all similar. Some better but marginal. Trimming the hull and right prop will be the challenge as it should be.
Mic

rayzerdesigns
11-17-2018, 11:51 AM
Smh...

If ever a vague response.. lol

Doug Smock
11-17-2018, 12:47 PM
Nothing personal Ray. That's all I can muster now without offending anyone.�� It's all been said. Hopefully they won't count the votes in Fla., Az., or Ga. LOL

T.S.Davis
11-17-2018, 09:50 PM
You went to 60 to eliminate the 1415 and eliminated the Turnigy in the process. Some guys were digging that one. Cheap fun.

You could have dumped the 1415 with a 260 gram limit. Or there abouts.

What club has been running the 60mm limit? I'm not saying its wrong by the way. You mentioned "been tested". The only club besides MMEU I'm sure has an official rule set for ignoring the list is Puget Sound. I never read their club version. Did they go 60?

jimmejames
11-18-2018, 01:45 PM
Unrelated to limited exactly. What are the ERCU boys going to do? They have zero 10th scale motors at this point that are legal from the book.

We've been tossing around running them on the size spec and forget it. The 1500 was the go to but if ya can't get it anymore. It's not like we have hundreds of them.

Until 2014 the only brushless motor allowed in the ERCU rulebook was the Himax HB3630-1500. These are still available, the price hasn't gone up, and they are still competitive. I use this motor exclusively in the Valken, which just won another season championship.

longballlumber
11-19-2018, 12:18 PM
I didn’t get to circle back to this subject over the weekend. Please see the attachment. There are 60 motors plotted on this chart. One red line limit is 56.5mm the other red line limit is 60mm. Simply look what falls in-between. The ProBoat data (orange circle) is slightly skewed due to the fact that bearing protrusion was included in the measurement to capture a worst case scenario. I am relatively confident that if those motors were remeasured they would fall at/or under the 56.5mm limit. And for the record, I am not campaigning that 56.5mm needs to be the limit. I simply started there because that’s where we started way back in the day. Our need to go faster, and continue to push the limits of the power system forced us to look bigger, longer, better (motor the fuse mentality).

What does the attachment show? It shows a several things

• The addition of the weight limit last summer was a stop gap solution to keep a particular motor out and curbed another level of pandora’s box being opened for this class (which worked).
• I would also say that weight isn’t necessarily a predictor of performance as the CORE brand/s of motors being used weigh less than their longer and heavier counterparts.
• Look at the sample size; The AquaCraft and Proboat motors is what the majority of racers are using…. still.... I know, I know, discontinued motors, Horizon purchased Tower yada yada yada. But at face value Tower still has 2030’s and 1800’s in stock. HiMax still has the 1500 on their website (same PN listed in the NAMBA rule book).
• It shows what adjusting the lower limit to 58mm allows the TP motors.

Here is my pitch…. Set the limits to whatever you feel is appropriate. Provide the membership enough information so when voting time comes they can make an INFORMED decision.

T.S.Davis
11-19-2018, 12:43 PM
Haven't looked at the chart in a while. Thanks for posing it again Mike.

60mm sure picks up a lot of motors. Raiders, all the Proboats. I think 60.2 would pick up the Turnigy but I don't have my heart set on that.

Currently there are only a handful that are over 265g. Does a 60mm limit achieve what we were trying to dodge with the 265g limit? I know that weight limit squeezes out a couple TP motors.

rayzerdesigns
11-19-2018, 02:02 PM
Haven't looked at the chart in a while. Thanks for posing it again Mike.

60mm sure picks up a lot of motors. Raiders, all the Proboats. I think 60.2 would pick up the Turnigy but I don't have my heart set on that.

Currently there are only a handful that are over 265g. Does a 60mm limit achieve what we were trying to dodge with the 265g limit? I know that weight limit squeezes out a couple TP motors.

We’ve had a few running the Turnigy and they have all burnt up one or more of them.. again this is my opinion on the size.. it leaves the door open for a bunch of motors..which can been seen 2 ways.. as for the 265 weight limit.. I’ve shown u guts my pics of the 1415 cut down that is 259 grams before I cut the shaft..I’m hoping things go well as the namba list is pretty much obsolete at this point..mike ball I haven’t heard back from you yet.. I responded to ur pm.. anyways guys.. off to skies.. hope everyone has a great day

T.S.Davis
11-19-2018, 04:20 PM
Ray, you got it down to 265. Was it still over 60mm?

rayzerdesigns
11-19-2018, 04:54 PM
162655162655

Here ya go terry.. with wires cut and shaft cut it’s now at 247
This is at 61.5mm. No way could u get this down to 60mm

Darin Jordan
11-19-2018, 05:00 PM
...with wires cut and shaft cut it’s now at 247

"Wires cut".... "shaft cut"... with contacts, without...

Carbon cans.... no cans....

For the love of humanity, can we not all please just get rational and realize how vague and intrusive weight limits are going to make tech'ing? And to what end?

Fluid
11-19-2018, 06:58 PM
Guys, like it or not the ONLY fair way to normalize motor performance is to list just one or two legal motors. Nothing we do will make everyone happy, it has to be a limited compromise. This is just like the old ROAR motor classes, impossible to make it “fair” for all. Limited classes suck if you desire true “fairness”, it’s always been that way, always will be.


.

T.S.Davis
11-19-2018, 10:02 PM
I'm okay with a limitation versus an IROC kind of thing.

Equality isn't really possible unless one guy builds all the bosts, sets them up the same, same battery, same prop with the same exact prep work.

Sure sounds like 36.2 x 60 is pretty good. Not hearing a ton of whining on my end. 36.something.

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 07:54 AM
Guys, like it or not the ONLY fair way to normalize motor performance is to list just one or two legal motors. Nothing we do will make everyone happy, it has to be a limited compromise. This is just like the old ROAR motor classes, impossible to make it “fair” for all. Limited classes suck if you desire true “fairness”, it’s always been that way, always will be.


.

Where is the like button?:thumbup:

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 08:41 AM
mike ball I haven’t heard back from you yet.. I responded to ur pm.. anyways guys..
Hey Ray,

Personally, I don't have any further topics to discuss at this point. I only wanted to make sure you comments elsewhere with regards to the IMPBA and P-Limited wasn't misleading others. Secondly, there really isn't a need to have a discussion about NAMBA and IMPBA working to commonize on P-Limited because NAMBA is already moving forward with a proposal. Several months ago Brian and I had a few short phone conversations, but this most recent proposal was never brought up. It seems to me the #1 priority of this proposal is the shear quantity of motors it allows. If that is the objective, and your previous comment about the 60mm limit allows 20-30 motors, it seems you've succeeded.

Later,
Ball

HTVboats
11-20-2018, 09:18 AM
"Wires cut".... "shaft cut"... with contacts, without...

Carbon cans.... no cans....

For the love of humanity, can we not all please just get rational and realize how vague and intrusive weight limits are going to make tech'ing? And to what end?
:iagree:

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 10:10 AM
Carbon cans.... no cans....


Come on Darin. This is a kid friendly forum. I've never seen them in carbon. When did they start that?

Some things I didn't think of before. Imagine you actually did have to tech one for a protest.

Guy standing there with a a motor in hand and it's over a tic but still has the connectors. "Yer over" He then clips off the connectors with side cutters. Taking with them the solder and a blip of wire in the cup. Now he's under. Oh but he was supposed to de-solder not cut. Is he legal? Then what if he did de-solder but didn't flick the solder off the ends. "Go back and flick the solder" Ugh......Do you write the procedure to wick solder into the book?

You guys may have convinced me on the weight thing here.

Darin Jordan
11-20-2018, 10:26 AM
I find it odd that, in EVERY OTHER CLASS in NAMBA, where motors are WIDE OPEN and people can spend as much or as little as they want, nobody is complaining about the balance of competition, or that there are TOO many motors available. And, people are TRUSTED to be able to decide for themselves what motor they want to run. Some go WAY overkill (Terry?? Ken?? Mike?? :laugh: ) and others go with the "enough" power method (did you know I set the RC Boating's FASTEST EVER 2-Laps for ANY OPC Tunnel ANYWHERE using 4S1P and a mere 3640-sized TP motor? In other words... JUST enough power... :thumbup1: )... BUT, we are all able to decide for ourselves in these classes.

Here, for P-LTD, the members involved in the Proposal, who are working to actually SAVE this class and keep it viable in light of the FACT that motor supply is truly drying up, are trying to put a cap on just how much power you can employ, and have come up with a REAL limitation, and for some reason, the racers suddenly can't be trusted to make their own motor choices within those parameters. Somehow, for some unique reason experienced ONLY in P-LTD, the "balance of competition" is somehow going to be disrupted if there is more than one or two motors to choose from?? Really?? Not the case in ANY OTHER CLASS, where things are WIDE OPEN, but here, with a REAL limitation, the sky will fall??

Just can't wrap my mind around that odd dichotomy.

rayzerdesigns
11-20-2018, 10:48 AM
Come on Darin. This is a kid friendly forum. I've never seen them in carbon. When did they start that?

Some things I didn't think of before. Imagine you actually did have to tech one for a protest.

Guy standing there with a a motor in hand and it's over a tic but still has the connectors. "Yer over" He then clips off the connectors with side cutters. Taking with them the solder and a blip of wire in the cup. Now he's under. Oh but he was supposed to de-solder not cut. Is he legal? Then what if he did de-solder but didn't flick the solder off the ends. "Go back and flick the solder" Ugh......Do you write the procedure to wick solder into the book?

You guys may have convinced me on the weight thing here.

Holy crap!! All kidding aside..I couldn’t have explained it better..that being said I have been being bombarded with people who just can’t seem to understand the size thing and or want a bigger size.. which we have tried..even some saying well what if it’s cold and my motor fits but when it’s warm outside it doesn’t..I get people will always push the limits.. that’s a given.. but a simple go no go measurement.. if it fits it’s legal.. if not it’s not... also on the namba side if a club decides to run a different size that is their right.. have at it!! That’s how we can keep growing.. this is for a national rule.. which by the way is just bragging rights as terry says and trophies..I truly hope the 2 organizations can come close to being on the same page. And maybe people will race more or travel to some races more..that being said��.. winter warmups in beautiful Arizona in February!! Sorry had to��

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 11:13 AM
I find it odd that, in EVERY OTHER CLASS in NAMBA, where motors are WIDE OPEN and people can spend as much or as little as they want, nobody is complaining about the balance of competition, or that there are TOO many motors available. And, people are TRUSTED to be able to decide for themselves what motor they want to run. Some go WAY overkill (Terry?? Ken?? Mike?? :laugh: ) and others go with the "enough" power method (did you know I set the RC Boating's FASTEST EVER 2-Laps for ANY OPC Tunnel ANYWHERE using 4S1P and a mere 3640-sized TP motor? In other words... JUST enough power... :thumbup1: )... BUT, we are all able to decide for ourselves in these classes.


For the record and the risk of getting off topic slightly; I actually think the scenario your describing is eventually going to hurt FE racing in general. Just a few years ago the GO-TO setup for most P boats was a NEU 1515 1Y. Now we have access to TP motors 1/3 longer (4070) with roughly the same KV, and it's only $140! this all equals an instant 5-8 MPH increase... Good for the hobby?

You keep referencing your Tunnel boat and your records.... As soon as someone breaks your record using a 40 series motor are you going to keep working with the 3640, because it's "JUST enough"? Guess what, it's not enough anymore! If you really valued your record you will do what it takes to get it back, and that includes changing to a different motor.

jevmax
11-20-2018, 11:26 AM
Years ago in the world of RC oval racing cars, we were able to keep the “spec” class a level playing field by using “hand-out” motors and batteries. When you arrive at the race and paid your entry fee, we handed you the cells and the motor. Immediately after the event we quarantined your car if you had a podium finish. We proceeded to closely inspect and unwind the motor, etc.. All of the racers knew what to expect, and I don’t recall any problems. Would it work with boats?

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 11:29 AM
I truly hope the 2 organizations can come close to being on the same page. And maybe people will race more or travel to some races more..that being said��.. winter warmups in beautiful Arizona in February!! Sorry had to��

You keep saying this, but there were NO efforts to reach out to ANYONE on the BOD of the IMPBA to develop a working relationship! The notion that the IMPBA "needs" to follow NAMBA is ridiculous just because there is a new proposal out there.

The only justification for a 60mm limit I have heard so far is - lots of motors to choose from. It was quoted elsewhere that 60mm limit would net you "20-30 motors to choose from". No one seems to care that 20%-30% (estimate) of those motors will even be worth a crap. Case in point, Turnigy motor it fits but Ray, you've already eluded to the fact that several have burnt up! What kind of message is that to someone wanting to get into the hobby?

Traveling doesn't have anything to do with motor sizes! Everyone is still using the same motors that were being bitched about6-8 years ago! The majority of racers are still using products from ProBoat or AquaCraft.

Darin Jordan
11-20-2018, 12:04 PM
You keep referencing your Tunnel boat and your records.... As soon as someone breaks your record using a 40 series motor are you going to keep working with the 3640, because it's "JUST enough"? Guess what, it's not enough anymore!

Actually, YES... I'll keep using it. I hadn't even scratched the surface of the motor's potential. The hull was the limiting factor...

Most of you WAY overpower your setups... Just sayin'. :tongue_smilie:

Doug Smock
11-20-2018, 12:36 PM
You keep saying this, but there were NO efforts to reach out to ANYONE on the BOD of the IMPBA to develop a working relationship! The notion that the IMPBA "needs" to follow NAMBA is ridiculous just because there is a new proposal out there.

The only justification for a 60mm limit I have heard so far is - lots of motors to choose from. It was quoted elsewhere that 60mm limit would net you "20-30 motors to choose from". No one seems to care that 20%-30% (estimate) of those motors will even be worth a crap. Case in point, Turnigy motor it fits but Ray, you've already eluded to the fact that several have burnt up! What kind of message is that to someone wanting to get into the hobby?

Traveling doesn't have anything to do with motor sizes! Everyone is still using the same motors that were being bitched about6-8 years ago! The majority of racers are still using products from ProBoat or AquaCraft.

:stupid:

Doug Smock
11-20-2018, 12:39 PM
Most of you WAY overpower your setups... Just sayin'. :tongue_smilie:

Painting with a broad brush but there certainly are some...:wink:

Darin Jordan
11-20-2018, 12:50 PM
Painting with a broad brush but there certainly are some...:wink:

Just working the percentages... :tongue_smilie:

Mike is right, in the end, however, regarding traveling, etc. HOW many actually do that? Hell, I don't even do it much anymore.

All this Rules-Bantering/Bashing/Hashing really only affects ONE event per year. Clubs are going to do whatever they want. So, in the end, all this only affects a handful of people.

We, as a club, were able to talk for about an hour, over two seasons ago, and put this in place. Limitations are slightly different, but still simple, physical, dimensional limitations, and racing hasn't been hindered. Participation is as strong as ever.

Honestly, this doesn't affect me much, as I 1) Am not racing as much as I used to, 2) Don't plan to travel much, and 3) Have developed the position of "just tell me what the rules are, and if I like them, I'll participate. Otherwise... He Gone"...

Just not worth making enemies over something that really doesn't matter locally. And, Frankly, if people can't come together and do SOMETHING logical, the class will die, and that's OK too. Plenty of other places to put your resources.

Doug Smock
11-20-2018, 12:50 PM
Years ago in the world of RC oval racing cars, we were able to keep the “spec” class a level playing field by using “hand-out” motors and batteries. When you arrive at the race and paid your entry fee, we handed you the cells and the motor. Immediately after the event we quarantined your car if you had a podium finish. We proceeded to closely inspect and unwind the motor, etc.. All of the racers knew what to expect, and I don’t recall any problems. Would it work with boats?

There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...

Doug Smock
11-20-2018, 12:53 PM
Just not worth making enemies over something that really doesn't matter locally. And, Frankly, if people can't come together and do SOMETHING logical, the class will die, and that's OK too. Plenty of other places to put your resources.

Roger that...OVER.:wink:

RaceMechaniX
11-20-2018, 01:12 PM
Most of you WAY overpower your setups... Just sayin'. :tongue_smilie:

Why are you guys always trying to single me out!
162656

Darin Jordan
11-20-2018, 01:17 PM
Why are you guys always trying to single me out!
162656

Hahahahaha... You're a Bad, BAD man, Tyler!! :laugh:

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 01:27 PM
For the record, I didn't run a 1515 in P anything until I was told that was all I needed. Time trials fall of 2017 was the first shot with a 1515 in a Pearl. My P boats had bigger motors than that back in 2009. Before that they were Hacker 7,8,9XL motors. Some Aveox too. By 2009, only my limited and N2 boats were smaller than a 1521.

Jim, the problem with hand outs is the cost to host an event. A club like MMEU would be looking to supply motors and batteries for maybe 50 boats give or take. We could pass the cost on to the racers but who's coming when the entry fee for each spec class is $150?

Doug, go in to your local hobby shop and buy a gas race boat. How about a P sport? Right off the shelf. Not happening is it? So he finds someone to show him how to build one. Really want brand new guy racing 70mph with his first boat? Good plan.

As for IMPBA and NAMBA working together at all..............what are we trying to do here? He said, she said, who follows who's ideas.............I give ABSOLUTELY zero craps about. Without spec/limited there will be little to NO FE racing. Not at mixed races. Not at stand alone races. Without it guys are not going to show up. Any that don't see that are either not paying attention or are not participating in events.

IMPBA's resistance to limited as it was made perfect sense to me. There were so many holes in what we were doing. It's a broken rule set. Was from the start. We were too ignorant to see it. Some of us at least (I count myself among them). The debate over the flaws was endless and heated. The BOD wanted nothing to do with that nonsense. Who could blame them?

This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 01:30 PM
Years ago in the world of RC oval racing cars, we were able to keep the “spec” class a level playing field by using “hand-out” motors and batteries. When you arrive at the race and paid your entry fee, we handed you the cells and the motor. Immediately after the event we quarantined your car if you had a podium finish. We proceeded to closely inspect and unwind the motor, etc.. All of the racers knew what to expect, and I don’t recall any problems. Would it work with boats?


There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...

I agree this is more along the lines of what I would consider a spec or limited type class.

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 01:34 PM
why are you guys always trying to single me out!
162656

lol

Darin Jordan
11-20-2018, 01:45 PM
Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.

People hate simplicity in reading, tech'ing, and enforcing rules?
People hate having to think for themselves?
People are generally Socialists/Communists and want "The State" to make all their decisions for them?

All I could come up with off the top of my head... :bounce:

jevmax
11-20-2018, 02:01 PM
Jim, the problem with hand outs is the cost to host an event. A club like MMEU would be looking to supply motors and batteries for maybe 50 boats give or take. We could pass the cost on to the racers but who's coming when the entry fee for each spec class is $150

Good point Terry. Back in the 1990s when I used to hold the ROAR Nats and the U.S.Oval Masters at Lake Whipporwill International Speedway in Orlando, the “handout” motor method always worked great and really leveled the playing field. The motors and cells were provided to me at below wholesale cost by a race sponsor. After the race was over the sponsor had the option of having us return the excess or I would offer the excess cells and motors for
sale in the Pro-Shop. Nobody ever complained about the cost. The competitors were happy to get a motor and cells below wholesale cost! Of course it was different with RC cars. Every year I had to limit the entries to no more than 100. However, FE boat racing is much smaller. Maybe the larger numbers made it feasible for us back then.

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure Jim. I'd have to think on it some.

With a sponsor like that, they are getting the value of the exposure to 100 racers. Could be that's pretty good exposure to dollar ratio. Enough to justify the investment. The biggest FE race in the states to my knowledge was only 62 racers. HA! Think you were there Jim. Of those racers, about 24 were racing LSH at the time. Then maybe another 24 racing LSO. Most of them were the same guys running different days with the same 12 Nimh packs. At that time it wasn't uncommon.

Quick math on a small nats to do it today if we got deals on stuff might be.....
Motor $50....ish....maybe?
4s5000 say maybe $75....ish?
6 classes x maybe 10 entries average......

so $3000 in motors and $4500 in batteries. Assuming you could find sponsors willing to front that.

The battery sponsor would essentially lose about $30 a pack if they resold them. So an $1800 profit hit. I've not seen that kind of dough from any sponsor of an FE event. NATS or otherwise. Ever. Brand loyalty doesn't seem to happen for FE sponsors. FE guys will order off ebay to save 7$ shipping even though they have to way 10 more days and it's damaged when it gets there. It's an odd thing in truth.

Then there is the issue of building your boat to fit battery x,y,z. We may run three different battery configurations in my kids Stealth depending on the wind. Those packs will NOT go into a Raptor rigger. Not happening. Then in offshore I like the weight so I carry 8k. Don't need 8k until about the 4th lap but finishing is king in OS.

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 03:18 PM
I'm not sure Jim. I'd have to think on it some.

With a sponsor like that, they are getting the value of the exposure to 100 racers. Could be that's pretty good exposure to dollar ratio. Enough to justify the investment. The biggest FE race in the states to my knowledge was only 62 racers. HA! Think you were there Jim. Of those racers, about 24 were racing LSH at the time. Then maybe another 24 racing LSO. Most of them were the same guys running different days with the same 12 Nimh packs. At that time it wasn't uncommon.

Quick math on a small nats to do it today if we got deals on stuff might be.....
Motor $50....ish....maybe?
4s5000 say maybe $75....ish?
6 classes x maybe 10 entries average......

so $3000 in motors and $4500 in batteries. Assuming you could find sponsors willing to front that.

The battery sponsor would essentially lose about $30 a pack if they resold them. So an $1800 profit hit. I've not seen that kind of dough from any sponsor of an FE event. NATS or otherwise. Ever. Brand loyalty doesn't seem to happen for FE sponsors. FE guys will order off ebay to save 7$ shipping even though they have to way 10 more days and it's damaged when it gets there. It's an odd thing in truth.

Then there is the issue of building your boat to fit battery x,y,z. We may run three different battery configurations in my kids Stealth depending on the wind. Those packs will NOT go into a Raptor rigger. Not happening. Then in offshore I like the weight so I carry 8k. Don't need 8k until about the 4th lap but finishing is king in OS.

Just my opinion, I wouldn't focus on batteries. voltage is voltage. Stick with the motors.

jevmax
11-20-2018, 04:29 PM
Just my opinion, I wouldn't focus on batteries. voltage is voltage. Stick with the motors.

That’s a good point. Maybe just need to control the motors.

Ken Haines
11-20-2018, 05:07 PM
This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.


I agree with Terry, and had some input on this while on vacation with him a couple weeks ago.

Also, reading too many here are soooo good with the idea of the P-Ltd classes going away....
I am definitely not and believe that this could seriously wreck the current FE participation
as we know it today. Many of us still attend and have a lot of equipment, let's not be so
cavalier about working this out properly. I will say that as I was originally opposed to
the dimensional rules, time has proven Darin and others right on the possibility of the
original motors someday going away. So here we are just in time to tweak things for next year.
I would like there to be enough length for the Turnigy motor 60.25mm, the rest looks good to
me. I do believe that putting the IMPBA suggested 258 gram limit would be a good backstop
to definitely keep the Neu 1415 out of the class simply because that motor is just too good.
Could be simple to even state in the proposal. "The Neu Model 1415 is not legal for the P-Ltd Classes"

Another comment.....It would seem like a good idea to touch base on this rule
proposal with the guys that travel all over the place and have who have taken
the lead in other NAMBA districts before the concrete sets on the final details.
This would also provide better support nationwide for the eventual vote itself.
Arguably would be quite the opposite from the 1/8 Scale Motor Rule Vote and subsequent controversy.
Just a suggestion :bounce:

Darin Jordan
11-20-2018, 05:09 PM
I can promise you that, if you put together a situation where, in order to be "legal", you are required to be swapping motors in/out all the time, or you have to frequently pull a motor to be weighed, participation will drop. What a hassle.

For handout motors... It'd be even more expensive that Terry described, because what is going to stop someone from over-propping the crap out of their system while they have a motor in, and then handing it in?? Next guy gets a pretty worn out motor.

Honestly, guys... you are WAY overthinking this.

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 05:22 PM
Not sure what the margins are on motors. $30 maybe? I suspect it's more. Another $1800 profit hit for someone IF he re-sells them for cost etc. I may be under thinking that.

Then which motor do you pick? We're currently debating 60mm......or 60.2mm. Anybody want to decide if for the nats it's a Raider 2030/ Raider1750/Turnigy/Leopard/TP/SSS/Promarine/Dynamite 1500/Dynamite 2000/Himax/Aquacraft 2030/AQ1800/ahhhhhhhh?

Once you make that determination, anyone truly interested in racing at the nats (or what ever we call it) would need to go out and buy for testing a number of those motors to get their boats sorted. Market cornered for that season. Woohoo! Good day to be the soul supplier of those motors! Heck, I was accused of being in Fine's pocket for supporting parallel packs. Wanna guess how it will go if we just pick any one of those as the "handout"? We lost a pocket of FE guys already because they felt that exactly happened already with Proboat and Aquacraft.

Wouldn't it be wayyyyyy more simple.....er....er to just have a length x width specification? (Notice I dropped the weight?) No brand required, no list, no favoritism, no way to cheat, but more importantly it seems, no way for someone to suggest that someone was cheating when they weren't. I see that more than I see cheating and I watch for these things.

Oh and there will still be the possibility, however remote, of a guy going into a local hobby shop and coming out with a race boat. Name another power level that you could waltz into a store and come out with something race able? I can't think of any but I'm ignorant to the ways of the fuel burners.

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 05:26 PM
. It'd be even more expensive that Terry described, because what is going to stop someone from over-propping the crap out of their system while they have a motor in, and then handing it in?? .

Didn't even think of that.

We've already seen different batches of the exact same motor have different quality. Some had different wire. So I bought motors to get my boat sorted. I get it perfect. I know the prop, the cg, the strut. It's coming in at 105 degrees. I drop in the handout and burn it to the water line in the second lap. Takes my esc with it.

Doby
11-20-2018, 05:28 PM
Honestly, guys... you are WAY overthinking this.

Captain Obvious LOVES this comment! Truer words were have never been spoken (or typed)

Doug Smock
11-20-2018, 05:47 PM
Doug, go in to your local hobby shop and buy a gas race boat. How about a P sport? Right off the shelf. Not happening is it? So he finds someone to show him how to build one. Really want brand new guy racing 70mph with his first boat? Good plan.

This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.

Terry my brother,
I'm pretty sure you can't buy a gas "race boat" a local hobby shop. Yet gas is the fastest growing segment of the hobby. Interesting huh?
As a matter of fact the Super Sport Mono class (Stock 260 Zen and a tuned pipe) numbers are exploding. That engine rule saved Crackerbox BTW. I wonder what, if anything we can learn from the gas guys? Ever wonder if9+years of Limited motor debates has had any effect on FE growth?

I see seasoned racers (nitro, gas, AND FE) that can't handle their 70mph boat so please understand why I fail to see your point there.:wink:

So limited classes ARE beginner classes? I think that was a point of contention to at one time.:confused2:
The "bring your RTR and come race" went out the window a long time ago didn't it? Todays RTRs don't require any modifications / component changes to be competitive at a race like the Cup?

We're set for 2019 and beyond I think. 36.5 x 56.5 is what D13 will be running in the GP series.
As usual we'll see what's happening out there before the Spring Nats. is posted. That way we can continue to attract all those cross over "traveling racers" that have been left on the bank because of the lack of official IMPBA motor rules that don't mirror NAMBA.:wink::thumbup1:

I agree on the handouts fellas, motor only. Get a deal if you can, pass the cost on in the entry fees, racer takes them home. I certainly wouldn't want to be handed one for a race that a "stator baker" ran for five rounds...:laugh: Will I enter the classes, probably not...

Happy Thanksgiving fellas! :hug1:

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 06:10 PM
Ever wonder if9+years of Limited motor debates has had any effect on FE growth?

Ever wonder if we had it right to begin with if there would have been a single drop of debate ever? Not sure if I need to get a siren with maybe a neon sign saying we blew it. Had we went size from day one there would have been no debate. I'll bet even the Wisconsin boys would still be racing FE.

Limited was never intended to be a beginner class. It's a place for new guys and vets to run together. Chris Flemmings cat was out of the box. Won a national championship. Mike Stancombes boat was out of the box. Won a championship in Texas. So yes it can and has been done. Not a lot of stores have those on the shelves but he's working on it.

If experienced guys can't handle going 70...............the new guy is better equipped to handle it? You lost me there.

We're down to the length being the only real thing in question. Accept the "handout" idea which is a disaster in the making. $50+ entry per class wont get guys to race.

Doug Smock
11-20-2018, 06:21 PM
Limited was never intended to be a beginner class. It's a place for new guys and vets to run together. Chris Flemmings cat was out of the box. Won a national championship. Mike Stancombes boat was out of the box. Won a championship in Texas. So yes it can and has been done. Not a lot of stores have those on the shelves but he's working on it.



Mike out of the box RTR is where it's at. Stick a fork in it we're done here!:wink:

HTVboats
11-20-2018, 06:49 PM
This thread started to address the "motor list" and or lack of availability. If you just select a handful of motors you will be at the mercy of manufactures and eventually wind up right back here with unavailable motors. Opening it up with a 36X60 limit that has 20+ motors takes care of that. It also sets limits that RTR manufacturers may adhere to sell products. A manufacturer easily puts a 36x74 motor to be faster than his competition. Back to wide open and not good for attracting new racers.

Solutions like weight put a burden on race officials that as Ken said could be solved with just be a list of unapproved motors.
Handout motors again puts a burden on race officials and adds cost, logistics and opens up arguments on reliability. It would be simpler to put a claiming rule in. You win and anyone in the race can buy your motor for say $125. No one will use an expensive motor or risk a cheap one they rewound or had custom made and have to sell it for a predetermined price. Might also encourage manufacturers to build for a price point.
If 3660 was implemented tomorrow the sky wouldn't fall. That's also what a trial period is for. MMEU has done well with 36X62 and just banning the 1415 would keep the peace.
P.S. Darrin is correct and his tunnel record a real achievement. When my son set the IC 45 tunnel record I had more motor in the box. But not enough boat,
Mic

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 08:02 PM
Super sport mono is growing?..................has rules.

The most popular FE power level in both NAMBA and IMPBA over the past 15 years...........no IMPBA rules.

Got it. Nets us nothing. I guess it makes sense if ya don't think about it......at all.

Yes stick a fork in it. Same reality. Same end point. Clubs writing their own rule sets.

Greg Schweers
11-20-2018, 08:46 PM
Here is some information. I have three raider motors and they all Measure over 60 mm when Steve brought these motors out I thought they would be the hot set up. Very disappointing

Doug Smock
11-20-2018, 09:31 PM
Super sport mono is growing?..................has rules.




Yep, can't buy them at the hobby shop, one legal engine, tech procedure a page long, going gang busters.

I'm confident it will all work out. The sharpest minds in FE are working on it.:thumbup1:

See you at the pond fellas. :beerchug:

T.S.Davis
11-20-2018, 11:19 PM
Hahaha. Yer the king Doug. That's like saying we're pounding nails with the sharpest stone we could find.

longballlumber
11-20-2018, 11:24 PM
The sharpest minds in FE are working on it.:thumbup1:

:help: :bash: :censored:

I will probably get accused of taking too much credit by assuming I was included in this group! LOL. :laugh: :wink:

dethow
11-20-2018, 11:49 PM
IMPBA's resistance to limited as it was made perfect sense to me. There were so many holes in what we were doing. It's a broken rule set. Was from the start. We were too ignorant to see it. Some of us at least (I count myself among them). The debate over the flaws was endless and heated. The BOD wanted nothing to do with that nonsense. Who could blame them?
IMPBA 8th Scale has the exact same issues/holes. A list of allowed motors and no way to tech if they are what they’re supposed to be. But yet there are rules in the IMPBA book for 8th Scale. Understood thou that there’s not as many people racing them so probably less issues/controversy then “spec” classes.


There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...
Seems Doug really could care less about this class and continues to just drum up negativity on progress.


Mike out of the box RTR is where it's at. Stick a fork in it we're done here!:wink:


Super sport mono is growing?..................has rules.

The most popular FE power level in both NAMBA and IMPBA over the past 15 years...........no IMPBA rules.

Got it. Nets us nothing. I guess it makes sense if ya don't think about it......at all.

Yes stick a fork in it. Same reality. Same end point. Clubs writing their own rule sets.


Actually… because of no IMPBA rules, limited is the most popular class in NAMBA over the past 15 years. It’s only recently IMPBA has had some increase in FE racers which is because they allowed a FE Nats event to take place with no rules in the book for the most popular classes.

Per Matt Schofield, Mike Ball told him that “FE racers probably doubled when the Michigan side joined.” Which was in 2017. This means that the most popular FE power level in IMPBA over the past 15 years doesn’t mean much. Because IMPBA didn’t/doesn’t have much of an FE presence if 15 to 20 guys from Michigan “probably doubled” the amount of FE racers in IMPBA.
Why is that??? Probably because there are no limited/spec classes in the rules and those classes were never allowed at a Nats event before 2018 and be awarded a “National Champion” title. And I’m not taking about “Spring Nats” or “Fall Nats”. They are grandfather to be allowed to use "Nats" in the event name and are allowed to run off the books classes, but they still aren’t allowed to put “National Champion” on the trophies.
It’s in the rule book; Section E, Procedures.:rules:

And it is understood that FE racers in IMPBA may have also got bigger because they (MMEU) brought in several outside of Michigan guys to IMPBA due to the MI Cup event which became an IMPBA event starting in 2017.


And let it be known… I have NEVER had any issue with ANY possible rule set IMPBA would consider. I had some opinions on the matter, but I would have been happy with ANYTHING. It’s the complete lack of doing anything and then continuing to allow these classes to runs at Nats is where I drew the line in the sand that I will not ethically cross. A BODs and/or a small group of guys from one club should NOT be deciding the rules which determine National Champions. Even if most/all of the racers attending the event agree with the rules. That’s not how things are supposed to work. To me that is worse then what went on with 8th scale in NAMBA. Many hate the new rules but at least ALL of the membership voted on them.

And for those opinions I've been shunned and the winner of the Ed Hughey Sportsman Award won't even acknowledge I exist. God forbid I demand the rules be followed and do the best I can to make people understand why they are not. No one wants to hear it, but I wasn't and am still not wrong.
Just ask yourself... does NAMBA run classes at Nats which don't exist in the rule books and give the winners "National Champion" titles.
Obvious Answer... NO. They're here doing things like this proposal to get the rules changed so they can continue to run them at Nats and so the class doesn't die.

Hands clapping to NAMBA...:bowdown:
Good job guys. Keep up the good work.

Doug Smock
11-21-2018, 08:23 AM
Hahaha. Yer the king Doug. That's like saying we're pounding nails with the sharpest stone we could find.




I will probably get accused of taking too much credit by assuming I was included in this group! LOL. :laugh: :wink:

:laugh::laugh:

Happy Thanksgiving fellas!:beerchug:

T.S.Davis
11-21-2018, 10:09 AM
And for those opinions I've been shunned and the winner of the Ed Hughey Sportsman Award won't even acknowledge I exist. God forbid I demand the rules be followed and do the best I can to make people understand why they are not. No one wants to hear it, but I wasn't and am still not wrong.
Just ask yourself... does NAMBA run classes at Nats which don't exist in the rule books and give the winners "National Champion" titles.
Obvious Answer... NO. They're here doing things like this proposal to get the rules changed so they can continue to run them at Nats and so the class doesn't die.


This will be one of those rare occasions that I respond to a Dave post.

Me not acknowledging your rants is a reflection of you and not of me Dave. If you check around......I'm a pretty good dude. I help people get into racing. Get them interested. Make people faster. I help people at races. Sometimes they're too timid to ask for help. I watch for those guys especially. Hell, I help people that are hosting races be successful at....... hosting races. You're pounding your keyboard and accusing everyone of some form of corruption or another. Being ignored by the most dedicated FE guy probably since Ed himself "should" give you pause. But nope. What ya told me was that I was like a cult leader and that the members of MMEU were sheep. Trying to remember. I believe it was....."None of the membership would dare oppose me on anything because they were afraid of me". Paraphrasing. So don't tell these readers you are being ignored because you want the rules followed. You're on ignore for being a jerk. I work pretty hard to be a useful tank engine. I wont be treated like I'm what's wrong with the hobby. Put me on ignore Dave. Please. For my sanity.

Last thing........how many FE NAMBA nationals have you hosted Dave? I've only CD'd 3 of them. Only one of them was the largest FE event in US history though. Did you know that high points was calculated differently for each of those? How about team points? Always been a team points award. It's not "in the book" but every NAMBA FE nat gave one out. How is it done? You don't know. So don't profess to have a single clue how NAMBA nats were done.

Width x length. Somebody pick something so we can not ever talk about it again.

T.S.Davis
11-21-2018, 10:09 AM
:laugh::laugh:

Happy Thanksgiving fellas!:beerchug:

You too Doug. Think we actually are done here.

Darin Jordan
11-21-2018, 10:24 AM
The sharpest minds in FE are working on it.:thumbup1

Pretty rude, Doug.

"Pour in Gas, Pull string"...

Darin Jordan
11-21-2018, 11:19 AM
Mike,

Do you still have the compiled data for motor can LENGTHS that you were gathering?? Don't care about weights or diameters. Can you just post the list of lengths of all the motors you measured/gathered info on??

Just curious.

These are all I was able to gather back when I ran all those tests... The TFL SSS 3660 and the DYNM3910 (2000 KV BJ26 Motor... the older one) were what my original 61.2mm.

To Greg's Point above, a hard 60mm WILL exclude some otherwise very popular and viable choices. Leopard 3660, for example, is 60.071 on the one I measured.

162671

Doug Smock
11-21-2018, 12:30 PM
Pretty rude, Doug.

"Pour in Gas, Pull string"...

Darin, I meant that. LOL I am confident that the sky is not falling on organized toy boat racing..

dethow
11-21-2018, 12:55 PM
Terry… Hey you can see me… I’ve called you a couple times offering to sit down and talk so we can work through the bad things BOTH of us said about each other. You don’t respond. Not very sportsman like.

But let me refresh your memory Terry.
From the “more limited motor discussion” thread:
You in post #303 “Doug, if someone is on your ignore list can they still see your posts?”
Me in post #305 “Is this in regards to me??? Have you put me on a ignore list Terry? Or am I misunderstanding?”
You in post #309 “What ever Dave. I'm not mincing word with you any more. You need professional help yer not getting. I'm finished being nice about it.”

That is what lead to our personal email exchange where I said those things about being a cult and everyone just follows you. Which by the way was actually said to me by a different member of MMEU when I tried confronting the 62mm motor length. MMEU was originally discussing 61mm and the core members of MMEU changed it to 62mm right before the vote and left no chance to discuss. I know because when I tried, I was verbally attacked by a member of MMEU who knew nothing of the logistics. He only knew that Terry said this is what we should do and thus he wanted to hear nothing else from anyone else.

So let’s get one thing straight Terry. You just said in post #96 of this thread “So don't tell these readers you are being ignored because you want the rules followed. You're on ignore for being a jerk.”
You had me on ignore before I said those things and was a “jerk” to you. So I guess I’d challenge that you DID put me on an ignore because I wanted the rules followed. AND... you were being a jerk first. LOL

And then in post #314 you had this to say publicly “Don't bother Dave. I'm adding you to my spam filter. You're not an active club member and never have anything positive to contribute to the club anyway. If the club wants rid of me they know how to do that.”
Fact was that I was an active member. More active then Mike Ball. And at the end of the 2016 race season I was one of 2 people who organized/collected and took care of the thank you gifts for you and Tom. I also stepped up and was handling the Nats donations/raffle and did the re-write of emails and letters before backing out of the event due to all of this. The only reason I wasn't racing with MMEU or the Nats was in protest to IMPBA and the path forward that was being described to me and supported by the MMEU leadership. Prior to all this, I was becoming ONE of the most active and positive members of the group outside of You and Tom. I did as much as I could considering I was located an hour away from the pond. Sorry, I wanted the rules followed. And lets not forget... I didn't have a problem with Nats at first. I thought the plan was to do the Nats and see how it goes so a proposal could proceed. But then when Doug, Mike and others started to make it be known that IMPBA would NEVER have limited/spec rules... I'd heard enough and wasn't willing to contribute towards that big picture.

So Terry you had already put me on yours ignore list prior to those things I said about you… privately. You putting me on an ignore list is part of the reason I was mad enough to say some of those things. But at the end of the day if you can’t take some private criticism on how the MMEU club operates then you have no place being in a leadership role. I believe in the first phone message I left you I even apologized for the harsh things I said and wanted to sit down face to face over a beer to work our $hit out. But the sportsman the leader you are you didn’t even acknowledge. Then I let a couple more months by and I called again to see if you were ready to talk. Chrickets….

And that was after I had an email exchange with Matt Schofield where he said “I believe we are on a path to make the P-Spec a class in the IMPBA rule book.” That was on August 28th of 2018 and I haven’t brought up a negative thing about the IMPBA BODs since. Because at least someone there was finally talking about some progress. Up to that point I was getting Doug, Mike, Chris and a few others trying to fight that no rules are necessary and the IMPBA would just keep doing Nats events that way with no rules in the book.
Yes… I kicked and screamed. And at the end of day that’s most likely the only reason IMPBA is even talking about a rule set. I think if it was up to Doug IMPBA would still never consider a limited/spec rule set. Thank God he isn’t king of IMPBA and those that want a rule set should stop listening to him. He’s nothing but negative on progress for this end of the hobby. But there I go being a jerk again… even thou Doug said this

There is your Nats. answer Mike. Build the cost into the entry fees for those classes. Shoot, maybe more guys will put on their big boy panties and build P & up class boats..
You know fellas we don't help those classes when a guy comes on here and says he wants to build a Q Sport and he's told "If you want to heat race you'd better build a P Limited Sport". So we're going to race this limited crap forever? Not me....I can pull a rope and have more high performance racing than I can stand! Just sayin...

Seems Doug would love to see limited/spec classes just die so he could just race his P & up class boats.
At least I’m fighting for the class… but Dougs’ the good guy… Right?!

dethow
11-21-2018, 01:21 PM
Did you know that high points was calculated differently for each of those? How about team points? Always been a team points award. It's not "in the book" but every NAMBA FE nat gave one out. How is it done? You don't know. So don't profess to have a single clue how NAMBA nats were done.

I do know how that was done Terry. There are rules in the NAMBA book for High Points and Teams. See the rule book: Section # 6 Nationals, E. Awards, # 4 and # 5 on pages # 3 and # 4.

And if they weren’t in the book back when you CD’d those events…. Well at least NAMBA did the right thing, saw that people liked these awards and got rules in the books for them.

But even if that was the case that some high points and team awards were given out before they were in the book... That's a whole different thing then creating multiple classes and giving out National Championships for them without the entire membership voting on what the rules should be.

Doby
11-21-2018, 01:24 PM
Hey Guys.... LOL

You won't be hearing from me on this.
No IMPBA, No NAMBA, and No MMEU.
I have no place to discuss this what so ever since I will no longer be racing with any organizations.



Just a friendly reminder :tape:

photohoward1
11-21-2018, 01:27 PM
Well This thread got ruined fast. Exactly what we all thought. TOY BOATS Guys! Have a great Thanks Giving!

Darin Jordan
11-21-2018, 01:28 PM
Darin, I meant that. LOL I am confident that the sky is not falling on organized toy boat racing..

Phew! I'm glad I didn't hit send on what I had originally typed then... :w00t:

dethow
11-21-2018, 01:31 PM
Just a friendly reminder :tape:

Thanks Doby... I'll back away. :focus:

But in my defense... as of right now I am still a member of both NAMBA and IMPBA. Just won't be renewing.
Well, I may renew NAMBA so that I can vote YES on progress and still support an organization which I have nothing bad to say about.

Just bummed I don't have a local NAMBA club to race with. :sinking-guy:

Doug Smock
11-21-2018, 01:44 PM
Phew! I'm glad I didn't hit send on what I had originally typed then... :w00t:

Me too, that's a long drive!!:laugh::laugh::hug1:
And in the future, you've got the number. I always have time to exchange pleasantries!!:roflol:

mpschofield
11-21-2018, 02:17 PM
Yet again this topic gets dragged down the ugly path. It's pretty sad you can't even have a discussion on a forum without dragging all of the dirt into it. Its stupid and just makes anyone read this less interested in the hobby. For me I just hit the unfollow button . Anytime this thread comes up it should just be locked and deleted.

For the record I personally would like to see a P-Spec in the rule book but I also understand the other side of the discussion. I am also in no standing to force the issue. I am a beginner into this side of the hobby and have a ton to learn. I have asked many people on this forum for help and appreciate all of their tips and education on all topics regarding FE. I get both points. But it's also up to the membership to write a rule not the BOD.

Funny part is when a new guy brings a boat to a club you will find a class to let that guy run. Because that's what it's all about, getting people at the pond on the water racing. Doesnt matter what they are running. No one gets into model boating because of the classes offered. Majority of the local hobby shops dont know NAMBA or IMPBA they just want to sell a boat.

Stop and think how silly some of this discussion is. Like Darin said it's for one race. And you can say that about every other class offered in the IMPBA rule book. It matters for one race. Everyone else runs their local rules for district races. And guess what? People dont care! Dave stop bringing up the past. It's done it's over. Time to move on. There are great people in this hobby. No need to drag people through the mud. We need every person we can get.

Lastly, stay patient. Like Doug said the sky isnt falling in the model boat world.

Happy Thanksgiving all! I'm out!


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

dethow
11-21-2018, 02:47 PM
Dave stop bringing up the past. It's done it's over. Time to move on. There are great people in this hobby. No need to drag people through the mud. We need every person we can get.

Lastly, stay patient. Like Doug said the sky isnt falling in the model boat world.

Thanks Matt... good words of advice. Probably easier for people to move on when they're not the one who has been demonized, blocked, called a jerk and left with no place to race their toy boats. And that's because the leader of my local club won't talk to me and other members made it clear that they'll stand with whatever Terry says on the Subject.

So please pardon me if I’m showing a little more emotion on the Subject. I kicked and screamed because I wanted the rules followed. Yes… I did and this is my punishment.

All that a single sane person had to do was exactly what you did the first time we exchanged an email. Tell me “I believe we are on a path to make the P-Spec a class in the IMPBA rule book.” All my kicking and screaming would have been done a long time ago. But instead we are where we are because a certain small group decided they know what best for the class and there was no need for rules in the book or a full membership vote. And that's what they stuck with for 6 months with me kicking and screaming the whole time. Then you came alone. The voice of reason.

You have a great Thanksgiving as well.

Steven Vaccaro
11-21-2018, 09:48 PM
Let's get this back on track. It started off as motors not being available. Let's get it back their and stop the back and forth finger pointing. Take it to a phone call or private message. Going over the same things, time and time again, makes us all look FOOLISH.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

dethow
11-21-2018, 11:20 PM
Width x length. Somebody pick something so we can not ever talk about it again.

:iagree:

Doug Smock
11-22-2018, 10:09 AM
Curious, what motors fit in the 60mm limit that doesn’t fit in a 56.5mm limit AND is currently being raced on a regular basis?

:stupid: ???

This question for guys that are currently racing...:wink:

longballlumber
11-22-2018, 10:26 AM
Mike,

Do you still have the compiled data for motor can LENGTHS that you were gathering?? Don't care about weights or diameters. Can you just post the list of lengths of all the motors you measured/gathered info on??

Just curious.

These are all I was able to gather back when I ran all those tests... The TFL SSS 3660 and the DYNM3910 (2000 KV BJ26 Motor... the older one) were what my original 61.2mm.

To Greg's Point above, a hard 60mm WILL exclude some otherwise very popular and viable choices. Leopard 3660, for example, is 60.071 on the one I measured.

162671

Sent via email. It was posted on page 2 of this thread, but is gone now. Even the attachment in your post above seems to be corrupt. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?60507-NAMBA-P-LIMITED-Motor-List-Pro-Boat-Motors-NO-LONGER-AVAILABLE&p=728752#post728752

HTVboats
11-22-2018, 01:19 PM
Just a thought for 36X60. 36.99 legal 37.00 out, 60.99 legal 37.00 out. Simpler than calling it hard 37X61 and allows all those odd numbers like 36.2 or 60.071 if it drops through a 37 by 61mm inspection template your good. easy to inspect and enforce.
Mic

Bp9145
11-22-2018, 03:27 PM
HAPPY THANKSGIVING to everyone and your families. . .let's leave this alone today and enjoy this special day to give thanks . .:)

Greg Schweers
11-22-2018, 03:32 PM
I have a question does anyone have a 1415 in a 60.00 can. If you have one I would like to see a close up picture of the end bell

dethow
11-23-2018, 11:06 AM
I have a question does anyone have a 1415 in a 60.00 can. If you have one I would like to see a close up picture of the end bell

Greg, I'm pretty sure that would NOT be possible. I think Ray even had an opinion to that effect earlier in this thread.
My 1415s measured 61.5mm. I could see maybe getting them down to 61mm or 60.99mm, but I can't believe 60mm or under would be possible.
I believe this is where the 60mm limit came from. A tool to cut the 1415s out without using a weight limit.

And BTW... this shouldn't just be about the Neu 1415s. This needs to get rid of the possibility of any standard 68mm to 74mm motor being reduced down to a smaller can size. Most of those larger motors have extra room in there just like the standard 1415 which leaves some play to cut the can down. Some examples of other motors we don't want used: Lehner1940, TP3635, and any shown as 3674 that MAY have enough room to be cut down.

Within MMEU, the 62.0mm max length came from the desire to allow the Lehner 1930 WITH fan in the mix. That motor measures exactly 62mm. That same motor WITHOUT the fan is 54.0mm. MMEU was actually going to go with 61mm max but at the last minute this change was made before the vote. I personally had issue with this and tried to speak against it. And in all actuality, if we had just gone with 61.0mm those 1415 motors probably never would have been made and we would probably already have had good proposals and rules voted on in both NAMBA and IMPBA. The extra 1mm made the 1415 look possible. I personally wouldn’t have even tried if the limit was 61mm. I asked Neu to get them to 62mm max as that looked barley possible. To my surprise they where able to get them to 61.5mm.

But with all that said… I support the 60mm limit. That makes PRETTY sure nothing like a Neu 1415 or Lehner 1940 get in the mix. And I also support the 56.5mm idea of Mikes. Maybe even take it out to 57.0mm just to round up and leave a little tolerance. That would make for SURE those motors could never be used and it’s still leave plenty of options. More than we have now.

And BTW... I've heard through the grape vine that some have been saying I'm being a jerk about all this stuff because I'm sore (butt-hurt) about my expensive 1415s being cut out. NOT TRUE.
I BLEW THE WHISTLE ON THE 1415s. And even when I did, a few said they'd be no big deal. I kept persistent until a more trusted voice on the matter spoke up and said they would be a problem. So I'm not mad that my 1415 motors were banned. I was the loudest voice called for them to be banned.

So those out there saying I'm just mad because my expensive motors were banned... JUST STOP... It's not true. And Ken Haines can attest to this as it was a conversation with him which convinced me that the right thing to do was to make sure everyone knew these motors were possible and we had to get them out of the class. And that wasn't Ken convincing me to do it. I told him my opinion that these motors shouldn't be allowed and asked if he thought I was right and should sound the alarm. He agreed and that’s what I did.

I got mad when IMPBA pulled the 62mm proposal that was on their desk and then followed up saying that NOW they'd NEVER allow ANY rule set for a spec class in the rule book. Remember... a member of IMPBA has to write and make a proposal, but that gets nowhere if the BODs don't agree with it and never let it go to a vote. That's why we're all kinda wondering around waiting for an answer from the BODs on what they may find acceptable and THEN a member would be able to write a proposal without it just being a complete waste of time. It has taken my 6+ months of kicking and screaming to get the BODs to move off that stance and now again at least consider a spec rule set.

So those that want to demonize me and view me as the bad guy... If not for me we'd probably have limited/spec rules and the Neu 1415s, Lehner 1940s and TP3635s would have ruined the class. And beyond that we'd have no future rules being considered by IMPBA and we'd have different spec motor rules being decided by a host club only at each years FE Nationals. If you were against what happened with 8th Scale in NAMBA, you should be with me and against that worse scenario happening in IMPBA.

properchopper
11-23-2018, 04:00 PM
FWIW NAMBA D19 will, on Dec 8 vote to ratify this P-Ltd rule for THE DISTRICT to start 2019 season:

162695

Steven Vaccaro
11-23-2018, 04:06 PM
FWIW NAMBA D19 will, on Dec 8 vote to ratify this P-Ltd rule for THE DISTRICT to start 2019 season:

162695

GREAT.

I cant tell you how many regular people are confused about this.

properchopper
11-23-2018, 04:31 PM
GREAT.

I cant tell you how many regular people are confused about this.

I agree that on one hand it simplifies sourcing a motor - plenty of acceptable choices to begin with BUT it opens the door to some interesting possibilities for the more "experimentally inclined" :spy: :spy:

162697

Doby
11-23-2018, 06:05 PM
Should spec the shaft diameter as well as the wire gauge.

Doug Smock
11-23-2018, 06:42 PM
BUT it opens the door to some interesting possibilities for the more "experimentally inclined"

It has been interesting to see the various combinations of frakenstators and modificated rotors that a dimension rule yields. And it's still early.:popcorn2:

properchopper
11-23-2018, 07:01 PM
It has been interesting to see the various combinations of frakenstators and modificated rotors that a dimension rule yields. And it's still early.:popcorn2:

My Enhanced Gaussian-Fluxdensityerator is on the way.......:ohmy:

Doug Smock
11-23-2018, 07:05 PM
My Enhanced Gaussian-Fluxdensityerator is on the way.......:ohmy:

:buttrock::thumbup:

properchopper
11-23-2018, 07:11 PM
:buttrock::thumbup:

Here's a peek :

162698

Doug Smock
11-23-2018, 07:15 PM
If it works out for you Tony I'll take two!:tape:

jaike5
11-23-2018, 07:17 PM
fluxdensityerator, ? is that an upgrade from the Mr fusion fluxcapassator:flashfire:

ray schrauwen
11-23-2018, 09:55 PM
Jeepers, I've got a pair of 2 pole 2300kv motors kicking around, rated at 1100 watts max. Cost me a whole $14 each on sale. Basically a Feigao knock off, 36 x 60, they are in a box if I'm desperate.

T.S.Davis
11-24-2018, 12:21 PM
The experimentally inclined could have been frankenstatoring all along. I didn't see any.

Most people just want race. Inventing some obscene abomination of a motor to beat some nuckleheads that you see all the time at every race you go to? Not likely.

Doug Smock
11-24-2018, 01:23 PM
The experimentally inclined could have been frankenstatoring all along. I didn't see any.

Look what happened when they were given a dimension to build to. The "fuse" has been relocated to outside the can.:thumbup1: Some are working on that, I've done some experimenting myself. Like I said it's early.
A guy would have to be blind or something to think there is no difference in performance & longevity with the "optimized" motors. We know it is and will continue to happen as long as they have a dimension rule, and until they are convinced they have found the ceiling. It will be interesting to see where that is, and the combinations used to get there. Is it a bad thing? I guess that depends on if you're leading or following, shaking, or baking. :wink:

It's ok regardless, let's race!

properchopper
11-24-2018, 02:35 PM
I promised myself to stay out of these discussions BUT I do race two "Ltd." classes every season so I'm affected by what's going on, Sooo...

I agree with you Mr. Smock ; "A guy would have to be blind or something to think there is no difference in performance & longevity with the "optimized" motors".

I have two "seasoned" Ltd motors (from the original list) on my bench that have been "experimentally massaged" to endure higher stator temps and not burn up before a heat is over {at least that was the original intent}. OF COURSE there's not much distance between that intention and "let's prop up now & go faster". EEk. (these are on the bench ONLY - no replicatible data as yet BUT...)

I have a thought* (don't be scared- I've had some previously) and of course I know with knowingness that ANY suggestion can and will be met with some good-intentioned counterpoint BUT given that the updated "size" rule could be amended to include the old "as delivered by the manufacturer" codicil it would eliminate any frankenstatoring. Make it better for noobies (one of several reasons for Ltd. classes to begin with.) OK-hard to tech - sheesh:blink:

*( I also think a 10 foot eight inch long rigid frame motorcycle with a foot clutch/hand shift and no front brake is good thought, so....)

Doug Smock
11-24-2018, 03:04 PM
I promised myself to stay out of these discussions BUT I do race two "Ltd." classes every season so I'm affected by what's going on, Sooo...

I agree with you Mr. Smock ; "A guy would have to be blind or something to think there is no difference in performance & longevity with the "optimized" motors".

I have two "seasoned" Ltd motors (from the original list) on my bench that have been "experimentally massaged" to endure higher stator temps and not burn up before a heat is over {at least that was the original intent}. OF COURSE there's not much distance between that intention and "let's prop up now & go faster". EEk. (these are on the bench ONLY - no replicatible data as yet BUT...)

I have a thought* (don't be scared- I've had some previously) and of course I know with knowingness that ANY suggestion can and will be met with some good-intentioned counterpoint BUT given that the updated "size" rule could be amended to include the old "as delivered by the manufacturer" codicil it would eliminate any frankenstatoring. Make it better for noobies (one of several reasons for Ltd. classes to begin with.) OK-hard to tech - sheesh:blink:

*( I also think a 10 foot eight inch long rigid frame motorcycle with a foot clutch/hand shift and no front brake is good thought, so....)

:laugh::hug1:

properchopper
11-24-2018, 03:04 PM
The experimentally inclined could have been frankenstatoring all along. I didn't see any.

Most people just want race. Inventing some obscene abomination of a motor to beat some nuckleheads that you see all the time at every race you go to? Not likely.

Don't really see too many of these at races, actually...... [1936 H-D Knucklehead]


162705

Although Al Waters does show up on his Honda Gold Wing towing a tiny trailer with his boats inside

Not Al's but similar

162706

Steven Vaccaro
11-24-2018, 03:05 PM
Id agree. There are advantages with mod motors. The problem with be teching. It would be the honor system for the most part.
I promised myself to stay out of these discussions BUT I do race two "Ltd." classes every season so I'm affected by what's going on, Sooo...

I agree with you Mr. Smock ; "A guy would have to be blind or something to think there is no difference in performance & longevity with the "optimized" motors".

I have two "seasoned" Ltd motors (from the original list) on my bench that have been "experimentally massaged" to endure higher stator temps and not burn up before a heat is over {at least that was the original intent}. OF COURSE there's not much distance between that intention and "let's prop up now & go faster". EEk. (these are on the bench ONLY - no replicatible data as yet BUT...)

I have a thought* (don't be scared- I've had some previously) and of course I know with knowingness that ANY suggestion can and will be met with some good-intentioned counterpoint BUT given that the updated "size" rule could be amended to include the old "as delivered by the manufacturer" codicil it would eliminate any frankenstatoring. Make it better for noobies (one of several reasons for Ltd. classes to begin with.) OK-hard to tech - sheesh:blink:

*( I also think a 10 foot eight inch long rigid frame motorcycle with a foot clutch/hand shift and no front brake is good thought, so....)

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

properchopper
11-26-2018, 01:30 PM
If rule passes I'm ready (motor pic's stolen from IW posted by :tape:)


:spy::spy:162717:spy::spy:


162715 162716

Steven Vaccaro
11-26-2018, 02:31 PM
If rule passes I'm ready (motor pic's stolen from IW posted by :tape:)


:spy::spy:162717:spy::spy:


162715 162716

In the end the best driver will win. My son can run a boat that is loose as a goose, if I try the same setup, I roll or flip over rather quickly.

T.S.Davis
11-26-2018, 02:45 PM
In the end the best driver will win. My son can run a boat that is loose as a goose, if I try the same setup, I roll or flip over rather quickly.

Yeah, it's the father curse. Ya teach em everything and they bury ya with it. haha

Steven Vaccaro
11-26-2018, 02:50 PM
Yeah, it's the father curse. Ya teach em everything and they bury ya with it. haha

who are you fooling, its old age.

rayzerdesigns
11-26-2018, 04:30 PM
If rule passes I'm ready (motor pic's stolen from IW posted by :tape:)


:spy::spy:162717:spy::spy:


162715 162716
You would still find a way to blow them up��

Steven Vaccaro
11-26-2018, 04:37 PM
You would still find a way to blow them up��


:bounce::bounce:The connectors will go first, unless you use the Huff/Smock super connectors. :tape:

properchopper
11-26-2018, 05:24 PM
You would still find a way to blow them up��

I finally quit blowing them up because the last time I tried I burned my lips on the endbell :olleyes:

fweasel
11-26-2018, 05:38 PM
I finally quit blowing them up because the last time I tried I burned my lips on the endbell :olleyes:

Tony Heller ladies and gentleman! He'll be here all week. Please don't forget to tip your waitress.

H&YRACING
11-30-2018, 12:35 AM
162775
Here's a picture of my Neu 1515 that fits the dimensions. See you at the races.

TRUCKPULL
11-30-2018, 03:00 AM
If rule passes I'm ready (motor pic's stolen from IW posted by :tape:)


:spy::spy:162717:spy::spy:


162715 162716

This picture that Tony posted of the carbon fiber can brought back memories.

Back in the day -I had a Hacker 7XL with a carbon fiber can. in my "P" Sport Hydro.( No cut outs on the can though - water cooler still fit.)

Larry

T.S.Davis
11-30-2018, 09:28 AM
162775
Here's a picture of my Neu 1515 that fits the dimensions. See you at the races.

I wouldn't risk it. Most CD's would say "can" dimensions.

trigger
11-30-2018, 09:54 AM
Terry its small enough it will/could fit in a can......... (edit will/could)

T.S.Davis
11-30-2018, 09:57 AM
How did he get a 40mm motor down to under 36.2mm?

trigger
11-30-2018, 10:04 AM
He is ever the creative person :spy:. I'm sure he'll tell you the story over a beer when you see him at the races/cup...... I can't believe he managed/did even post it up. (no offence H&Y.....:hug1:)

Steven Vaccaro
11-30-2018, 10:45 AM
162775
Here's a picture of my Neu 1515 that fits the dimensions. See you at the races.


Doing a search of a brushless motor componets brings up many draws.
Most of which, reference Housing, Stator and Rotor. So Id think the motor on the right is missing the housing.

properchopper
11-30-2018, 02:12 PM
With the updated rule for P-Ltd potentially going into effect (if it passes in D19 and/or elsewhere) there can be some interesting developments in powerplants whereas before, under the old list AND "as delivered" rule, winning took some precise setup and as Steven said, driving counts heavily.

Personally I have had the absolutely most memorable racing moments when my boat was pretty equal to the rest of the field and the battle was rail to rail or one close behind the other lurking for a passing opportunity (or having the lead boat get psyched out & bobble). Ask Mike (theShaugnessey) - we've had those prized moments. Having a "ringer" banzai- motored rig way out front by virture of its' clever rule-massaging and by its lonesome might be one way to get points and that's good too. I'd rather have someone by my side racing together. Just my 2c.

RaceMechaniX
11-30-2018, 02:32 PM
162775
Here's a picture of my Neu 1515 that fits the dimensions. See you at the races.

That is a very clever work around although you need to replace the bearing carrier with a non-metallic material to prevent the stray inductance heating. The magnetic field produced by the rotor and the field generated by the stator coils are too close to the metal. The rotating flux will heat the bearing carrier like an induction cooktop. Evan as small as that part is it will generate 50-60W worth of heat on each side. At the end of a race that part will be smoking hot.

Steven Vaccaro
11-30-2018, 03:07 PM
With the updated rule for P-Ltd potentially going into effect (if it passes in D19 and/or elsewhere) there can be some interesting developments in powerplants whereas before, under the old list AND "as delivered" rule, winning took some precise setup and as Steven said, driving counts heavily.

Personally I have had the absolutely most memorable racing moments when my boat was pretty equal to the rest of the field and the battle was rail to rail or one close behind the other lurking for a passing opportunity (or having the lead boat get psyched out & bobble). Ask Mike (theShaugnessey) - we've had those prized moments. Having a "ringer" banzai- motored rig way out front by virture of its' clever rule-massaging and by its lonesome might be one way to get points and that's good too. I'd rather have someone by my side racing together. Just my 2c.


Tony, somewhere you mentioned to include "as delivered". Sure its something that cant be tech'd, but would make the honorable guys, stay that way.

T.S.Davis
11-30-2018, 03:15 PM
We've been racing with a motor dim allowance of 37x62 since spring of 2017. We ran it at 2017 MCup, 2017 Spring NATS, 2017 CanAm, 6 MMEU 2017 club races. Then we proposed it to IMPBA. Then we received a recommendation form the FE director as the BOD still wasn't on board. Race it some more! Ran it at the 2018 Spring NATs, 2018 FE NATs, 2018 CanAm, 5 MMEU 2018 club races. Made for some pretty even racing. I believe some NAMBA clubs were running some form of a dim spec too. Puget Sound was if I remember correctly. MMEU is two seasons deep with it and Puget one season. Dims across two organizations. Clubs thousands of miles apart.

Is the assumption that MMEU and Puget are not very creative and therefore didn't push the envelope? We had guys machining motors to meet the dims. We had guys racing rewound motors. We had some custom made Neu motors to fit the dims. We had some Lehner motors. Hell, I used to water cool my wires on the AQ motors. Guess what wins? Not all that custom BS. For 2018, 5 of 6 classes for MMEU ran the spec. Those 5 classes were won by out of the box Proboat and Promarine motors.

Sorry guys, but all the hand wringing over what could/might/maybe/possibly/someday be done is holding us back. The existing motor list (that was submitted to NAMBA back in late 2008 or so) was an absolute farce. We were ignorant. Guys could have been modifying their motors all along and we never would have known. There were no means to prove a motor was legal......or wasn't. The rules weren't tech-able. "As manufactured". Okay. Who checked those bearings to ensure that they were the right set that the manufacturer sold them with? What if the manufacturer changed vendors for bearings? Would we know? The vendors don't disclose that kind of information. We could have had two AQ motors right out of the boxes with different gauge magnet wire. This happened. Was only one legal? Was the other rewound? Could we know? Did we have the spec on the magnet wire to check it against the "as manufactured" wire? Of course not.

Not yell'n at ya Tony. Honest. I like close racing too. It's wayyyyyy more fun. Just getting a little frustrated with the glass is half empty thinking. I can't get my head around it. The glass has been half broken for nearly a decade but few recognized why that was so. Now we're going to get hung up on on the "if's n' mights"? There is no perfect. "Perfect"................that aint happening. The list is basically dead. It was DOA but we had our heads in the sand. Yes me too.

Workable is what we need. A dimensional limitation is workable.

OMG my soap box just burst into flames.

T.S.Davis
11-30-2018, 03:17 PM
Tony, somewhere you mentioned to include "as delivered". Sure its something that cant be tech'd, but would make the honorable guys, stay that way.

You can't do that because two motors side by side from the same manufacturer might not even have the same can on them. Enter TP 3630-1950 motors.

raptor347
11-30-2018, 03:42 PM
That is a very clever work around although you need to replace the bearing carrier with a non-metallic material to prevent the stray inductance heating. The magnetic field produced by the rotor and the field generated by the stator coils are too close to the metal. The rotating flux will heat the bearing carrier like an induction cooktop. Evan as small as that part is it will generate 50-60W worth of heat on each side. At the end of a race that part will be smoking hot.

You could build a potting mold with bearing carriers built in. Cast the whole thing solid with a high temp epoxy and high fiber fill. Put threaded inserts in the mounting end. Run a bearing with a larger OD than the rotor on the mounting end and use the mounting plate for bearing retention. Talk about simple bearing replacement. It's actually pretty simple tooling.

T.S.Davis
11-30-2018, 04:08 PM
Or......I could spend the time time it takes to tool up a motor for an extra mph...........and practice driving instead.

Doby
11-30-2018, 04:43 PM
Anyone who spends the amount of time and feels the need to actually mod the guts of motors to the extent of some of the pictures and ideas tossed around....all in order to win a little piece of plastic really needs their head examined.

T.S.Davis
11-30-2018, 04:51 PM
Where's the like button John?

properchopper
11-30-2018, 04:52 PM
Or......I could spend the time time it takes to tool up a motor for an extra mph...........and practice driving instead.

Really now :ohmy:

162782

Steven Vaccaro
11-30-2018, 05:02 PM
All this hurts my head. All I want to do is have stress free fun in my spare time.

HTVboats
11-30-2018, 05:21 PM
We've been racing with a motor dim allowance of 37x62 since spring of 2017. We ran it at 2017 MCup, 2017 Spring NATS, 2017 CanAm, 6 MMEU 2017 club races. Then we proposed it to IMPBA. Then we received a recommendation form the FE director as the BOD still wasn't on board. Race it some more! Ran it at the 2018 Spring NATs, 2018 FE NATs, 2018 CanAm, 5 MMEU 2018 club races. Made for some pretty even racing. I believe some NAMBA clubs were running some form of a dim spec too. Puget Sound was if I remember correctly. MMEU is two seasons deep with it and Puget one season. Dims across two organizations. Clubs thousands of miles apart.

Is the assumption that MMEU and Puget are not very creative and therefore didn't push the envelope? We had guys machining motors to meet the dims. We had guys racing rewound motors. We had some custom made Neu motors to fit the dims. We had some Lehner motors. Hell, I used to water cool my wires on the AQ motors. Guess what wins? Not all that custom BS. For 2018, 5 of 6 classes for MMEU ran the spec. Those 5 classes were won by out of the box Proboat and Promarine motors.

Sorry guys, but all the hand wringing over what could/might/maybe/possibly/someday be done is holding us back. The existing motor list (that was submitted to NAMBA back in late 2008 or so) was an absolute farce. We were ignorant. Guys could have been modifying their motors all along and we never would have known. There were no means to prove a motor was legal......or wasn't. The rules weren't tech-able. "As manufactured". Okay. Who checked those bearings to ensure that they were the right set that the manufacturer sold them with? What if the manufacturer changed vendors for bearings? Would we know? The vendors don't disclose that kind of information. We could have had two AQ motors right out of the boxes with different gauge magnet wire. This happened. Was only one legal? Was the other rewound? Could we know? Did we have the spec on the magnet wire to check it against the "as manufactured" wire? Of course not.

Not yell'n at ya Tony. Honest. I like close racing too. It's wayyyyyy more fun. Just getting a little frustrated with the glass is half empty thinking. I can't get my head around it. The glass has been half broken for nearly a decade but few recognized why that was so. Now we're going to get hung up on on the "if's n' mights"? There is no perfect. "Perfect"................that aint happening. The list is basically dead. It was DOA but we had our heads in the sand. Yes me too.

Workable is what we need. A dimensional limitation is workable.

OMG my soap box just burst into flames.

:iagree: (Workable is what we need. A dimensional limitation is workable)

Johnc
11-30-2018, 06:55 PM
I've been reading these post for the last few days,

And here's my input

This is all bullcrap of what's being posted (motors and size),

I planned on joining a local club (and imba) this spring. But with all this crap about motors has turned me off. Have a few friends that are feeling the same way. By joining I was hoping for friendship/learning with fellow boaters and have fun racing (where in the world was fun lost?) Why did you decide to race yourself? TO HAVE FUN WITH FELLOW BOATERS AND TO LEARN FROM THEM? Maybe so, Maybe not

By having a better motor or reconfiguring it to make it faster does it make you a better driver? I don't think so. Is it really worth it to win with a upgraded (nonconformational motor) for bragging rights? It's not like your going to win any money (maybe a $10 side bet) just bragging rights (it worth the time and money to redo a motor just to brag?) its supposed to "fun" fellow boaters.

What I read mostly is that people are just bragging about what they know about motors and how they can improve them (throughout the whole post) just to be able to have an edge.

Here's a proposal (not including club races): Clubs that are hosting FE races (nats, cups) supply the motors (racers pay up front for them) after races boater may keep motor. All motors not kept by boaters returned to manufacture for resale. Have one day to install motors and test. How long does it take to change a motor out and test?

Just my thoughts: cut me down, hate me for what I have posted or what ever I don't care. It is what read from all of you and it's my opion

longballlumber
11-30-2018, 07:05 PM
Serious questions:

Is the primary goal to set a size that allows as many options as possible? News flash: more options mean more inferior motors, because everyone is running the same motors as they were years ago.

Is the goal to have the motor disposable and the weakest link in the power system? Let’s face it we have gone from 60amp controllers to 150-180’s being the norm. We have gone from 1p 30c setups to 2p 60c set ups

Again, still I am trying to understand what the goals of the class are.

raptor347
11-30-2018, 07:26 PM
Anyone who spends the amount of time and feels the need to actually mod the guts of motors to the extent of some of the pictures and ideas tossed around....all in order to win a little piece of plastic really needs their head examined.

Doby,
With all due respect, I disagree with you on this. Are the people who built those motors any crazier that those who spend countless hours bitching on the interwebs? At least they had something to show for their time.

Those motors are taken a bit out of context. The pics and mod ideas come from folks who play at the world championship level. I got to fondle the prototypes when I was at the 1998 F5D worlds. We were running custom wound Aveox motors at the time. Generally speaking, the participants have the operator side of the game pretty well in hand before the equipment tinkering begins. Ultimately it was still a piece of plastic, but I've held on to that piece of plastic for 20 years.

It's funny how mind set has changed in 20 years. Back then, the guys who built those motors were highly regarded innovators, today they're crazy (also very well paid engineers).

There are some people that enjoy the process of building to and innovating within a rule set. I don't consider building a motor to meet dimensional rule specs any different than designing a new boat to fall within the rules. It's not the blue plates or ribbons, the attraction is the mental exercise of building the better mouse trap. It's fun and challenging to build!

One of the issues here is our mixed bag of racers with widely varying skills and preferred level of competition. Some want to go play without much effort, others analyze everything and experiment. Some should focus on driving skills, others can afford and enjoy the R&D mental gymnastics. Unfortunately, they are all in the same heat this weekend.

Personally, as P-ltd has taken over the hobby, I've found myself heat racing less and putting more effort into time trials. People playing in that arena don't interpret innovation as seeking unfair advantage.

raptor347
11-30-2018, 07:30 PM
Johnc,
Go find a club, do some racing and make some friends.

Ignore the interweb garbage. The worst internet enemies hug and go racing once the ponds thaw out.

raptor347
11-30-2018, 07:33 PM
My take:
The dimensional limits will work fine. There will be cases of innovation, those folks don't deserve to be beaten up over it. If someone shows up with something creative that really works, pat them on the back and see if you can spend some time in their shop!

Doug Smock
11-30-2018, 09:42 PM
:thumbup1::popcorn2:...………..

RaceMechaniX
11-30-2018, 11:04 PM
You could build a potting mold with bearing carriers built in. Cast the whole thing solid with a high temp epoxy and high fiber fill. Put threaded inserts in the mounting end. Run a bearing with a larger OD than the rotor on the mounting end and use the mounting plate for bearing retention. Talk about simple bearing replacement. It's actually pretty simple tooling.

Do you know a guy who might have some high temp epoxy, small lathe to turn molds and patience to perfect a small run of killer motors?
Since we are on the topic can the same guy pot the stator so the inner and outer diameter is sealed with passages between the stator teeth so I can run water directly over the windings?
I think I can double the current..........

I should go practice making some laps now.

Doug Smock
11-30-2018, 11:34 PM
Lap times are overrated.
You just need to be able to drive a straight line and enter and exit the turns in lane one.:blink:

Doby
12-01-2018, 12:42 AM
Doby,
With all due respect, I disagree with you on this. Are the people who built those motors any crazier that those who spend countless hours bitching on the interwebs? At least they had something to show for their time.

Those motors are taken a bit out of context. The pics and mod ideas come from folks who play at the world championship level. I got to fondle the prototypes when I was at the 1998 F5D worlds. We were running custom wound Aveox motors at the time. Generally speaking, the participants have the operator side of the game pretty well in hand before the equipment tinkering begins. Ultimately it was still a piece of plastic, but I've held on to that piece of plastic for 20 years.

It's funny how mind set has changed in 20 years. Back then, the guys who built those motors were highly regarded innovators, today they're crazy (also very well paid engineers).

There are some people that enjoy the process of building to and innovating within a rule set. I don't consider building a motor to meet dimensional rule specs any different than designing a new boat to fall within the rules. It's not the blue plates or ribbons, the attraction is the mental exercise of building the better mouse trap. It's fun and challenging to build!

One of the issues here is our mixed bag of racers with widely varying skills and preferred level of competition. Some want to go play without much effort, others analyze everything and experiment. Some should focus on driving skills, others can afford and enjoy the R&D mental gymnastics. Unfortunately, they are all in the same heat this weekend.

Personally, as P-ltd has taken over the hobby, I've found myself heat racing less and putting more effort into time trials. People playing in that arena don't interpret innovation as seeking unfair advantage.

Hi Brian:

Fair enough..if they want to spend the time to do all that , great. But I would think that its an overall very small percentage of racers that would be attempting that in the "P Limited" / "M spec" / "Dimensionaly weight restricted motor" class (whatever terminology is politically correct these days). Most would just run a COTS motor that fits the rules /proposals being run at any given event.

Lets face it..a boat with super duper motor in the wrong hands is just going to wind up bottoms up sooner and be just another speed bump on the course.

Now, that setup in the right hands is a different matter...thankfully there aren't that many out there with the right hands. most of us have two left ones!

ray schrauwen
12-01-2018, 02:21 AM
Whatcha building this winter guys? :smile:

:w00t:

raptor347
12-01-2018, 03:07 AM
Doby,
I completely agree with the super motor in the wrong hands deal.

The other thing about those motors, they were optimized for a different variable. Dimensions, within reason, weren't part of the equation. They were shooting for max power for minimum weight, total flying weight being one of the main variables in the airframe design. Minimizing the non-active component weight was the driver. Again, very capable, high level competitors.

I don't expect to regularly see that level of refinement in P-ltd. I also won't be surprised if they occasionally show up.

Tyler,
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.:spy:
No cooling jacket required, or you could directly cool the stack and windings. Rotor OD tolerance will be more critical. Need to fill some of the air gap with thin wall carbon tube. Do you think there will be enough flow between the windings?

Ray,
New outriggers and a new mono. Not to mention the new race car, but that's a 1.5 year project.

T.S.Davis
12-01-2018, 09:50 AM
The goal is to have some classes where both vets and the less experienced can coexist with less percieved advantage. This IS why the classes with imitations have been the most heavily populated FE classes since 2003. Some of you wont remember LSH and LSO with glorified drill motors. "Limited" replaced those.

John, our club spec classes were won with motors bought from Larry's RC right out of the display case. All 5 of those classes were won by 3 racers. Those 3 guys are at the pond at least once per week to practice driving. No black magic motors.

To Brians point. Time........ Those three guys invested time to be better. If someone spent that same time building a better mouse trap........still a time investment to be faster. Crazy to spend time learning to go faster? Or crazy to do it different than I did? I like to build wood boats. Takes twice the time of assembling a glass boat. Crazy investment of time? Probably but I enjoy doing it.

Here's what's different about model boaters. Something rules dont and wont ever cover. Those 3 guys that won our classes will take the prop off their winning boat and let you try it on yours. If they have a spare motor they'll let you try that out too. That commeraderie is lost in this hand wringing nonsense here. Smock and I dont agree on "spec" but at a race........dont care. "Hey Doug, i lost my 1814-17-45" He's helping me out. I would do the same for him.

Goals? A midpoint between standing on shore and the psychotic open classes where NO limits allow us to go crazy.

Doug Smock
12-01-2018, 10:03 AM
Smock and I dont agree on "spec" but at a race........dont care. "Hey Doug, i lost my 1814-17-45" He's helping me out. I would do the same for him.
Got to love it!!:thumbup1:

We've never agreed on "LIMITED". :laugh:Remember the ESC debates? Still not convinced I was wrong!:tt2::wink:

Let's race!!

dethow
12-01-2018, 10:52 AM
Again, still I am trying to understand what the goals of the class are.

Mike,
After this MANY years of discussion, debate and this exact same statement/question from you over and over... and OVER again. Maybe it's time we ALL move past you trying to understand the goals of the class and let's get some rules in place which are "workable".

At this point the goals should be to provide an environment with defined rules so that veterans and beginners alike know what to put in their boats in order to be involved in organized racing without a concern over what the rules might be next year.

It's just time to move past this question Mike. It's clearly NEVER going to be answered to your liking. :sorry:

Everyone gets so mad at me when all I want are rules in place so THIS stuff can stop. It's these type of open questions with no answer ever satisfying you that contributes to this topic never being resolved. Again.... :sorry:

Doug Smock
12-01-2018, 11:53 AM
Mike, did what's his name ever submit a proposal? Didn't think so...….:olleyes: Nah, it's easier to sit on the sidelines and :crying:.

dethow
12-01-2018, 12:15 PM
Mike, did what's his name ever submit a proposal? Didn't think so...….:olleyes: Nah, it's easier to sit on the sidelines and :crying:.

Doug, am I to assume "what's his name" is me?

Why would anyone waste their time submitting a proposal to IMPBA when the FE director (Mike) and BODs as a whole have made it clear that no limited/spec proposals would be considered and move past the BODs for membership vote?

If that has changed please let us all know so that someone can get a proposal submitted. But based on Mike's continued "trying to understand" the goals of the class questions... I'm assuming nothing has changed as of yet.

And besides Doug... as I'm understanding it you really don't like limited/spec and thus it would appear that any involvement from you on this matter is nothing more then a damping effect to bring questions and shade on the topic so that we can never get to a proposal.

It's all starting to make sense to me know... after 9 months. This is why you sent me those PMs dogging Terry and Darin and requesting that I get behind the new FE director (Mike). Terry and Darin were on the side of figuring out a "workable" rule set, while you clearly and Mike is now become more apparent to just keep throwing up questions and road blocks which never allow the opening for a proposal.

Afterall... how is the IMPBA FE Director ever going to give his approval on ANY proposal if he can't even figure out the goals of the class?

And I'm not bringing up old stuff here moderators.... this is current and based on recent statement/questions from Mike along with this statement from Doug regarding proposals. I haven't referenced prior racing events and I haven't called anyone names so please don't threaten another "time-out" on me for asking legitimate questions on the matter.

Doug Smock
12-01-2018, 12:28 PM
:laugh: So after all your ranting to the BOD you STILL don't know how it works? Back on the list..:olleyes:

ray schrauwen
12-02-2018, 09:55 AM
Doby,
I completely agree with the super motor in the wrong hands deal.

The other thing about those motors, they were optimized for a different variable. Dimensions, within reason, weren't part of the equation. They were shooting for max power for minimum weight, total flying weight being one of the main variables in the airframe design. Minimizing the non-active component weight was the driver. Again, very capable, high level competitors.

I don't expect to regularly see that level of refinement in P-ltd. I also won't be surprised if they occasionally show up.

Tyler,
Yes, as a matter of fact I do.:spy:
No cooling jacket required, or you could directly cool the stack and windings. Rotor OD tolerance will be more critical. Need to fill some of the air gap with thin wall carbon tube. Do you think there will be enough flow between the windings?

Ray,
New outriggers and a new mono. Not to mention the new race car, but that's a 1.5 year project.

Cool Brian.:cool2:

I remember back in 2014 or someone ran a spec Skunkworks cat with the motor in the bottom, always exposed to water or air.

Very "cool" idea !

T.S.Davis
12-02-2018, 01:43 PM
I know its not like me to agree with Dave but it's only fair. Sometimes its like he's reading my mind. I'll come back to it.

First some history........sorry.

Back about 2003 Limited Sport Hydro was added to the NAMBA rule book. It was in response to what the racers were already doing. Brushed 700 motors. Instant success. That was followed by Limited Sport Offshore. These limited type classes were at that time to most popular classes. By a lot. Held up for about 5 years.

Enter cheap brushless motors. Guys started taking the motor from the SV27 and dropping them in their LSH boats. You could get that motor for about the same $$ as a 700 motor. So...........NAMBA responded. Success again. Whether you loved it, hated it, didn't believe in it...........doesn't matter. It provided just enough freedom to allow some imagination without the insane speed discrepancies of open classes. As pathetic, ill conceived, terrible (insert your favorite spec hate phrase).......they were still the most popular class set ever. For FE that is.

Reality is, no matter how you feel about it, that some rendition of a spec class set has been to most popular FE classes for the tiny population of FE racers since the battery.

Back to Dave's point. Might be from another thread and just occured to me that he's right.

The goal.

IMPBA's goal needs to be responding to it's membership. The FE community has been racing some form of spec for 15 years. The BOD is elected to represent the membership and it's desires.

If the BOD is simply trying to avoid the whining of some just tell them it's my fault. It probably is anyway.

Doug Smock
12-02-2018, 02:38 PM
If the BOD is simply trying to avoid the whining of some just tell them it's my fault.

The IMPBA responds to the membership and cleverly conceals it's meeting minutes on the website. If you'd like to know the facts of the matter perhaps you could take the time to read them and put the conspiracy theory(s) to rest.:wink:

Drawing on 69 years of experience the BOD knows the "whining" will continue as you can't please everyone in the toy boat racing community.

T.S.Davis
12-02-2018, 03:05 PM
True Doug, so please the majority of them. The majority of them are racing spec and have been for 15 years.

Hugs.

dethow
12-02-2018, 03:14 PM
Terry,
Give me a call when you are ready to start talking about getting MMEU back to NAMBA and their 59 years of experience in responding to what membership races and wants.

And if that day never comes... no problem. I'll still be personally supporting NAMBA and I will start working on forming a new NAMBA club on the West side of Oakland County, MI at the Camp Dearborn. I'm probably going to setup up a meeting with them this spring.

I had no issues in this hobby and was viewed as a very likable person until IMPBA came in the picture for MMEU. And I personally don't think IMPBA likes the heat they've been getting to do something they just don't want to do since MMEU got involved with them. They want to race P and up boats and that's a stance I don't see changing anything time soon. And that's opinions formed from reading the minutes and things recently said to me by the FE Director. MMEU is a limited, offshore and 10th scale club which just isn't really supported by IMPBA. I just don't think IMPBA was/is the right fit for MMEU and it may be time to move on.

Terry, I'd still like to sit down for that drink to talk about some of this if you're open to it. The past can be left in the past if we can compromise on changing the future so mistakes of the past don't occur again. 99% can occur by just getting away from IMPBA.

I also have a couple other ideas for MMEU that I'd like to share which could help spread the responsibility off you and Tom. Along with making the club more healthy so that more then 2 guys know how to run the club. A good/healthy club shouldn't live and die with 2 guys. As thankful as everyone is for everything you guys do... I think most would like to know the club would still exist even if one or both of you didn't want to race anymore.

Doby
12-02-2018, 04:36 PM
Cool Brian.:cool2:

I remember back in 2014 or someone ran a spec Skunkworks cat with the motor in the bottom, always exposed to water or air.

Very "cool" idea !

That was Doug Peterson....very cool out of the box thinking!

Doug Smock
12-02-2018, 04:50 PM
True Doug, so please the majority of them. The majority of them are racing spec and have been for 15 years.

Hugs.
And they can continue to do so in any manner that works for them. Big surprise, we still disagree..lol
I'm done with this. Handle it fellas!

dethow
12-02-2018, 05:11 PM
And they can continue to do so in any manner that works for them.

And where it works for majority of FE racers is in NAMBA.

longballlumber
12-02-2018, 05:30 PM
Good god, and we are still running the motors that everyone was complaining about 5 years ago. Add the latest RTR motors from proboat, pro marine (sss), and a TP motor to the/a list for good measure and be done with it! How long are those motors I just mentioned? 58mm or less....

Ok so make the limit 58.... that “should” suffice until someone real smart throws a monkey wrench in all of this! The bigger the limit the more room you leave for innovation.

T.S.Davis
12-02-2018, 09:32 PM
Isn't there a stock gas class? How the hell did that happen?

rayzerdesigns
12-02-2018, 10:43 PM
Isn't there a stock gas class? How the hell did that happen?
And it’s the fastest growing class in NAMBA

T.S.Davis
12-03-2018, 01:52 AM
I hear that's true of IMPBA also. Why did they bother? There were already rules for gas classes. Why have these other rules? They didn't need more rules with motor limits. Or........wait........I think I know what happened. They responded to what the gss guys wanted. I guess that works for fuel.

donhuff
12-03-2018, 10:02 AM
The stock gas classes came about because a few people who are never in the front during a race, decided that it would be "more fair" to have a class that used only stock engines, and that would somehow "level" the playing field and like magic, they would have a class where every boat was equal, and they would have a "better" chance at winning. BECAUSE you know, winning, has absolutely nothing to do with hull selection, setup, propeller, pipe length, and lastly, because it is the least important of all, driver ability.

At a recent gas race, they tore down, to make sure they were all legal, every single engine competing in any of the stock classes!!! And those things have about 100 parts. It took a whole day, and everybody was pissed off! Why you say??? Because those same danged people that really wanted a stock motor class so they would have a chance at winning, are now bitching about a few people HAVE to be cheating and modding their motors, because the losers, are still losing. And guess what. They are still losing to those same people, that regularly beat them in the modded classes! Remember what I said about driver ability and setup?

The stock classes grew because of a few reasons. 1 For me (I race Super Sport Mono) It was a way to make use of my old hull that had grown to small, because the modded motors were making it go to fast, and I couldn't keep it right side up. the stock boats are slower and a little easier to drive because of that.
2 Because the competition will be closer!! Not really, same people out front, same in the back, and the same ones are still zig zagging and hitting the bank! But my big advantage in the class is that in the beginning I told my son Lamar that this class was off limits to him, That way I'd have a chance! I have won the last two years in our 4 race Grand Prix Series.
3 Because I am at heart a motor (engine) man, I know that in a stock motor class, there is all kind of "wiggle" room in the motor rules. It's not always what the rules "say" that matters, but more importantly it's what they don't say that really matters. Tear my engine down, and it will be completely stock "by the book". Is that cheating? A driver will say yes, a setup man would say yes, a motor guy will say "I wish I'd thought of that".

T.S.Davis
12-03-2018, 12:30 PM
I asked the wrong question Don. Sorry.

How did the super stock classes ever get added to the rule book? Did membership want it? Obviously it was added due to demand. Of course there's a process. Proposal, trial period. I get that. The BOD could have tabled it as they have with FE.

Were the gas racers told NO SIR for 15 years? Guessing no. Too many guys thought it would be cool. Can't ignore the masses. FE will never have "the masses" type numbers.

Doug Smock
12-03-2018, 01:11 PM
I asked the wrong question Don. Sorry.

How did the super stock classes ever get added to the rule book? Did membership want it? Obviously it was added due to demand. Of course there's a process. Proposal, trial period. I get that. The BOD could have tabled it as they have with FE.

Were the gas racers told NO SIR for 15 years? Guessing no. Too many guys thought it would be cool. Can't ignore the masses. FE will never have "the masses" type numbers.

Get off it Terry it hasn't been 15 years! :olleyes:The classes have only been around for approx. 9 and it's been a pizzing match ever since!
You and the MMEU sent in the first proposal this year and it was declined after much discussion for obvious reasons! So now you can say you have been told NO SIR for less than a year! SMH! At least try to keep it real!

Super Sport was a long process that started with thunderboat (any stock 26cc engine) and ended up with a single engine and a technical inspection sheet a page long. The racer gets his engine back torn completely down as Don mentioned and I have several times.

Later guys!

donhuff
12-03-2018, 04:42 PM
OK Terry I see what your saying.

We fought the "stock" motor thing hard. Because we all knew that it would be a problem, as it has been since day one. And the biggest reason is because the good hull, good setup guys, and the great drivers, make it look like they are cheating!

You right about the masses, and the reason that the "masses" get heard is because there is only one winner in a race, and usually 3 to 5 losers.

T.S.Davis
12-03-2018, 06:08 PM
Sorry Doug. What I wrote reads like a conspiracy theory. Wasn't fair of me. I'm just frustrated. We raced our proposal for a year prior to submission. Ran another year under the recommendations. If I wrote it again based on what we saw on the pond racing.....I still don't know what would survive and make it to trial. So I'm not.

LSH dates back to about 2002. LSO dates back to 2004. Accept not in IMPBA. "Limited" dates to fall of 2008. Accept not in IMPBA. You could race them at IMPBA events but those events ran NAMBA rules. Ummmmm......whatever. My 15 years comment refers to there having been some form of class that had a power limitation based on motors in that time. FE digs it overall and has for quite some time.

IMPBA has only decline a proposal the one time. That is very true. IMPBA has however, ignored every form of FE spec racing since 2002 or 3. Is that fair?

As for pizzing match......if we had gone size and not with a list would there have been?

TRUCKPULL
12-03-2018, 06:59 PM
Terry

I thought the problem with the board this time was:
After we ran the rule that we came up with for a year,(and every thing worked out fine)
Then some people came up with ways to put a lot of extra power in to our size limits.
We then wanted to add a weight limit to the rule( witch was not in the original proposal and had NOT been run for a year before a vote)


Larry


PS - I think that we should drop the weight limit and reduce out length to around 60mm
It seems that the over power motors can NOT fit in a 60mm can anyway.

Doug Smock
12-03-2018, 07:14 PM
Sorry Doug. What I wrote reads like a conspiracy theory. Wasn't fair of me. I'm just frustrated. We raced our proposal for a year prior to submission. Ran another year under the recommendations. If I wrote it again based on what we saw on the pond racing.....I still don't know what would survive and make it to trial. So I'm not.

LSH dates back to about 2002. LSO dates back to 2004. Accept not in IMPBA. "Limited" dates to fall of 2008. Accept not in IMPBA. You could race them at IMPBA events but those events ran NAMBA rules. Ummmmm......whatever. My 15 years comment refers to there having been some form of class that had a power limitation based on motors in that time. FE digs it overall and has for quite some time.

IMPBA has only decline a proposal the one time. That is very true. IMPBA has however, ignored every form of FE spec racing since 2002 or 3. Is that fair?



I know with your background at NAMBA you completely understand why I saw a shade of red with that comment. We're good brother! I got it, thank you!:smile:

To say the IMPBA has ignored every form of spec racing isn't fair either IMO. How long did the IMPBA have a nitro racer as Fast Electric Director because a FE guy never ran for that position until Chris Harris stepped up?? ( I don't know, but it was MANY) By the time Chris was in office some clubs were already running some form of a limited class or classes. The goals varied from club to club.
Any blame for the lack of spec or limited racing back in the day rests squarely on the shoulders of the FE membership at the time. Perhaps they didn't feel it was necessary. I don't know, but blaming the org. doesn't fly in my minds eye. The org doesn't make the rules the membership does. Yes the BOD has some power when it comes to rules and thankfully so. Otherwise we could be looking at what happened with Scale in NAMBA. Not casting stones at all guys, just saying, really.

You may also remember that I tried to put something together and was met with extreme opposition from some folks (much like what we have now), so I took it to the IMPBA forum at the time and asked Randall to get involved. I got NOTHING for my efforts. We were racing happily and having fun without "National rules" and the infighting. I gave up, why bother, it wasn't worth the pain.


I really am trying to stay off of this topic. The sky isn't falling, this crap hurts my feel good, and I have better things to do.
If something shows up on a ballot I'll vote my conscience.


Good luck fellas,

Thanks all!

Doug

PS Larry the MMEU proposal never made it out for a one year trial. IMPBA & NAMBAs procedures are dissimilar.

T.S.Davis
12-03-2018, 10:59 PM
I follow Doug. Supply and demand. Maybe there weren't enough IMPBA FE focussed guys to even bother with it. It is odd to me that nobody ran for director. I can remember a number of IMPBA guys that never hesitated to bash myself or NAMBA. They never stepped up for IMPBA though. They clearly had all the answers. Hahaha

I've confessed repeatedly that we messed up when we went with a list of motors. Availabilty, quality, brand bias, difficulty proving a motor was as marked. Slew of reasons. Can't turn back the hands of time to see what would have happened with a simple size limit.

I feel the same way about the scale motor lists. It's still a bad answer for that same slew of reasons.

don ferrette
12-04-2018, 05:03 PM
I follow Doug. Supply and demand. Maybe there weren't enough IMPBA FE focussed guys to even bother with it. It is odd to me that nobody ran for director. I can remember a number of IMPBA guys that never hesitated to bash myself or NAMBA. They never stepped up for IMPBA though. They clearly had all the answers. Hahaha

I've confessed repeatedly that we messed up when we went with a list of motors. Availabilty, quality, brand bias, difficulty proving a motor was as marked. Slew of reasons. Can't turn back the hands of time to see what would have happened with a simple size limit.

I feel the same way about the scale motor lists. It's still a bad answer for that same slew of reasons.

Motor lists are a problem waiting to happen, always have been. It screwed the pooch in P limited and is still screwing the pooch in IMPBA FE 1/8th scale (I've said many times- length and diameter limits and go race, easy to "police" at the pond for those holding an event). Now with this I'm going to have to rethink (and rewrite what I've started) the district 12 1/10th scale rules. Instead of attempting to mirror NAMBA rules as far as motors go, perhaps a length, diameter, kv limits will keep it simple but research needs to be done to find equal AND affordable (read cheap) motors as the whole point was it's an affordable way to run "the pretty boats" :cool:

T.S.Davis
12-04-2018, 06:02 PM
Don, I can email you our 10th set if you like. Decent starting point.

donhuff
12-04-2018, 06:25 PM
I'm with DON on this. Let's make it simple and go with a plain diameter and length rule. Kinda like limiting the cubic in/cc of an internal combustion engine (what a novel idea, NOT) I do not like a Kv limit though, as I feel that you need to have something that we can play with in the motors. Some hulls like a high Kv and a little prop, while others like a low Kv and a big prop. That give us some room for spearmenting!

I'm also against a weight limit, cause sure as we implement a weight limit rule, "ACME Motors Incorporated" will come out with a 36.5mm X 56.5mm that is the most perfect limited motor ever. And it will be 4 grams to heavy for the rules.

don ferrette
12-04-2018, 07:02 PM
Don, I can email you our 10th set if you like. Decent starting point.Please do sir! donferrette@verizon.net

jaike5
12-04-2018, 07:10 PM
would dimensions exclude a Pletenburg ? A motor which is a little more fat and a little short, but a great motor for 1/8th scale, and has been for a decade with no issues. The Greatlakes gentlemen's agreement .What about limiting prop diameter ?

don ferrette
12-04-2018, 07:54 PM
would dimensions exclude a Pletenburg ? A motor which is a little more fat and a little short, but a great motor for 1/8th scale, and has been for a decade with no issues. The Greatlakes gentlemen's agreement .What about limiting prop diameter ?Ah yes the Plett.............
That "agreement" came about long before the battery technology is where it is now and the big Plett's power potential be truly harnessed. The 56mm Plett is far more powerful than any other "legal" motor out there by a massive margin and has no business in a scale boat in my opinion. A 40mm diameter motor is more than enough for an 1/8th scale to run reliably and consistent mid to upper 60s all day long. The Plett in an FE scale is like allowing a .90 in a nitro scale when everyone else runs .67s. There are only two out there that have or are running in the FE scale class that we've been able to find and sometimes for the greater good, growth and stability change is needed even if one or two become illegal. We always talk about doing what's right for the majority yet................:olleyes:

Ken Haines
12-04-2018, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE=donhuff;729516]I'm with DON on this....../QUOTE]

Read this beginning of Don Huff's post and thought he had started talking in third person
or Doug had gotten him drunk again...

Thought maybe we needed some levity here :bounce:

don ferrette
12-04-2018, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=donhuff;729516]I'm with DON on this....../QUOTE]

Read this beginning of Don Huff's post and thought he had started talking in third person
or Doug had gotten him drunk again...

Thought maybe we needed some levity here :bounce:
:roflol::roflol::roflol::roflol:

Doug Smock
12-04-2018, 08:54 PM
If I could be so bold as to put a moderator hat on for a moment....

We try to limit threads to one pile of crap ea. This thread has at least two.:ohmy:

It would be great if any further Scale motor discussion was taken to the appropriate forum.
I promise I'm not trying to censor you, or squash your Scale motor rule speak. Just trying to keep house.:wink:

Thanks in advance fellas!:tiphat:

don ferrette
12-04-2018, 09:06 PM
If I could be so bold as to put a moderator hat on for a moment....

We try to limit threads to one pile of crap ea. This thread has at least two.:ohmy:

It would be great if any further Scale motor discussion was taken to the appropriate forum.
I promise I'm not trying to censor you, or squash your Scale motor rule speak. Just trying to keep house.:wink:

Thanks in advance fellas!:tiphat:

Not a problem brutha Doug. :thumbup1:

Doug Smock
12-04-2018, 09:09 PM
For the record.

I have never ever intoxicated Don. If Don has ever been intoxicated it was done by his own hands or others.:laugh:

I have seen "drunk" people before and can honestly say I have never seen Don "drunk". Twice as long as I have known him I have seen him where he probably shouldn't get behind the wheel (and he didn't) but never "drunk". :thumbup1:

I got yer back Amp Daddy!:hug1:

T.S.Davis
12-04-2018, 09:49 PM
Not even that one time at boat camp Doug?

trigger
12-04-2018, 09:57 PM
I’m glad I’m not the only person that see’s an amp daddy don post and I read it just as it’s spoken, takes me three times as long to read Dons posts..... great posts though.......

Erm....... I’d better stay on topic.....erm........ yeah limited motors.........rules.......

Doug Smock
12-04-2018, 10:14 PM
I’m glad I’m not the only person that see’s an amp daddy don post and I read it just as it’s spoken, takes me three times as long to read Dons posts..... great posts though.......

Erm....... I’d better stay on topic.....erm........ yeah limited motors.........rules.......
:laugh::thumbup1:

Doug Smock
12-04-2018, 10:51 PM
Not even that one time at boat camp Doug?

He was still in control of himself. I know that because he was still talking to me like I wasn't one of " his sons".:laugh:

raptor347
12-05-2018, 12:18 AM
Hey!!! What happens at boat camp, stays at boat camp!!!

Doug Smock
12-05-2018, 09:05 AM
I think we're doing it wrong. We should have two days of boat camp with a little racing in the afternoon before dinner.:thumbup1:

donhuff
12-05-2018, 09:28 AM
OH GOOD GRIEF :beerchug:

T.S.Davis
12-05-2018, 10:30 AM
I think we're doing it wrong. We should have two days of boat camp with a little racing in the afternoon before dinner.:thumbup1:

One heat of each class but they all run together. 260 some odd boats. One heat. Anybody who finishes gets a real nice ribbon.

I always say we screwed up the NAMBA limited set back in 2008/9 but I got to thinking about that some. I wrote this in an email to someone recently. Thought I would share.

FE has been arguing about "limited" since 2009. Very true but IMO that's because we fowled it up in the first place. Impossible to be sure but I think that a size limit would have made the format last forever. In our defense......there was very little secondary market availability. No TP motors, no leopard motors, SSS motors weren't even a thought. Most secondary market motors available were better than the RTR motors and 3 times the price. We didn't want them in the class. We really did want rtr boats to be in the mix.

Back then we thought that opening it up more would allow someone to buy wins. At least that would be the perception of some. This is ridiculous of course. Real racers know it doesn't work that way. It works the way Don described. Creative guys are still creative guys. A better fin. Half a degree of strut. Shift that CG a 1/2". Guys that spend time at the pond figuring them out. That's what makes the fast guys fast. It aint magic or spending.

With the motors though, the secondary market is much better now than in 2009. Catering to the RTR market was clearly a mistake but our intentions were pure.

raptor347
12-05-2018, 02:01 PM
I think we're doing it wrong. We should have two days of boat camp with a little racing in the afternoon before dinner.:thumbup1:

We have an event like that every spring. 3 days-2 days of camping, test/tune, seaplanes and great camp food both nights, race on Sunday. It's one of my few "don't miss" events of the season.

Doug Smock
12-05-2018, 02:17 PM
We have an event like that every spring. 3 days-2 days of camping, test/tune, seaplanes and great camp food both nights, race on Sunday. It's one of my few "don't miss" events of the season.

That's what I'm talking about!:thumbup: Way cool!

donhuff
12-05-2018, 03:39 PM
How far away is Oregon Doug???

Doug Smock
12-05-2018, 04:46 PM
How far away is Oregon Doug???

You're going to have fly us Don! No crazy in flight maneuvers please!! I don't want to be the first to poop in your plane!:unsure::laugh:

Approx. 3,600 miles by car...:ohmy:

T.S.Davis
12-05-2018, 06:01 PM
First time they traveled to a Michigan Cup together, Doug called his wife to say goodby.

Doug Smock
12-05-2018, 06:39 PM
First time they traveled to a Michigan Cup together, Doug called his wife to say goodby.

^^^^True story!^^^^:laugh:

donhuff
12-06-2018, 09:09 AM
That's only because I had my first ever pair of real eye glasses on, and I was enjoying being able to see and dodge "some" of the pot holes on one of yawls dirt roads while headed to the motel after a day of racing. But I was going about 70 mph, in the dark, and the rain. Yeah, I would have been skeered too.

rayzerdesigns
12-11-2018, 05:11 PM
The proposal for 37x60 passed with the amendment of adding in any bearing protrusion included in length..off to BOD for approval then hopefully a vote soon to the membership

Steven Vaccaro
12-11-2018, 05:37 PM
The proposal for 37x60 passed with the amendment of adding in any bearing protrusion included in length..off to BOD for approval then hopefully a vote soon to the membership

Nice to see things moving forward.

rayzerdesigns
12-11-2018, 07:01 PM
Well it def wasn’t going anywhere by just complaining about it.. lol

Greg Schweers
12-11-2018, 09:13 PM
By adding the bearing you basically change the rule to 37 x 58

rayzerdesigns
12-12-2018, 02:50 AM
By adding the bearing you basically change the rule to 37 x 58
Come on Greg.. only a couple motors have it.. the provost motors did..not adding the bearing by the way.. its the can length.. if either end has the bearing protrusion as part of can or end bell it’s then why wouldn’t it be included in the length??

rayzerdesigns
12-12-2018, 02:58 AM
I’m pretty sure the neu.. sss.. tp..leopard..ose motors and many more don’t have the protrusion.

Greg Schweers
12-12-2018, 03:26 AM
I just wanna know the reasoning behind adding the bearing housing to the overall length

rayzerdesigns
12-12-2018, 04:14 AM
To keep someone from having a custom can with a bearing protrusion that would allow a longer rotor/stator.. it might not seem like a lot Greg.. and you of all people should know this..I’ve been involved with many motor manufacturers and know the ins and outs of brushless motors..it seems you are not in board or agree with the measurement/proposal that was submitted.. and that is your choice..hopefully we will all get to vote on this soon as the current namba list is getting to the non existent point..this is a simple measurement that is easily teched..no weight.. no grey area.. is it going to be the correct thing to save limited classes?? Time will tell..I’m hoping we can keep the biggest fe classes in NAMBA going..hope everyone has a merry Christmas and a happy new year..as soon as I hear something from national I will post it..

HTVboats
12-12-2018, 09:52 AM
I don't think it is a matter of saving or killing this class. Not having affordable and available motor and esc's will surely stunt its growth. One reason the spec class thrives is it is not totally dependent on RTR equipment and the suppliers need for sales over supporting racing organizations which don't have a large market share. I have seen many RTR classes die over the years for various reasons. Lack of equipment choices being one. Manufacturers changing products for whatever reason another. Dimension specs aren't perfect but solve a lot of issues.
Mic

longballlumber
12-12-2018, 10:28 AM
provost motors

Is this new? Care to share a link?

Thanks

T.S.Davis
12-12-2018, 10:35 AM
haha Spell checked from a phone I predict. ProBoat.

longballlumber
12-12-2018, 11:06 AM
haha Spell checked from a phone I predict. ProBoat.

:doh: Of course...

Other than the few that have already been discussed, I am interested to see the "windfall" of motors that a 60mm limit is going to produce.

T.S.Davis
12-12-2018, 11:32 AM
I don't think it will. I think ("think") the intent was to allow something to be developed should the well dry up but still keep out the next power group that is 1415's. Flawed thinking? Maybe..... but some compromise has to be accepted somewhere.

Greg Schweers
12-12-2018, 01:22 PM
If rotor length made a difference Steve Neu would be using them in his motors .Can size controls the length of the stater and the wire. I have no problem with 37 x60

photohoward1
12-16-2018, 01:17 PM
Hey I have an idea. Limit the Battery. Say 3000mah limit per 1 heat. Not hard to tech battery. If there is a question of how many mah
someone used just take the pack and charge it. if it goes past 3000mah. You are disqualified. Efficiency is the key. Big motor big amps. This scenario would limit the amps used in a race. A guy could run a Neu 1521 or a Lehner if they wanted. They are limited to 3000mah per race. That's about 120 average amps per race. If that's to High then drop it to 2500. That's 100 amps average. If you want an easy way to control power limit the fuel. Heck make it 2000mah. 80 amps average. Don't give me crap that guys need the weight. Just add it then. Not in batteries though. And don't give me crap about "c" ratings. A 2000mah pack with a 70c rating should be good for 140 amps.

TheShaughnessy
12-16-2018, 03:57 PM
It would take forever to tech battery capacity, plus just because a charger shows 3000 mah doesn't mean all 3000 went into the battery. No no no, bad idea. What happens if you cut a bouy and have to do a penalty lap, two penalty laps? You now get dq'd instead of points? 37x60 and include the bearing shoulder/protrusion if it exists. I can get behind that.

don ferrette
12-16-2018, 04:22 PM
:doh: Of course...

Other than the few that have already been discussed, I am interested to see the "windfall" of motors that a 60mm limit is going to produce.

Ummmm............ they came right off your list. :bounce:

photohoward1
12-16-2018, 05:52 PM
They limit fuel in every form of racing. In Indy, NASCAR or Formula One if there is extra laps too bad. Build in extra capacity. All my sprint boats are set-up for 8 laps.Mill, Race and cool down. No extra Laps in IMPBA. NAMBA that's another problem.
It would take forever to tech battery capacity, plus just because a charger shows 3000 mah doesn't mean all 3000 went into the battery. No no no, bad idea. What happens if you cut a bouy and have to do a penalty lap, two penalty laps? You now get dq'd instead of points? 37x60 and include the bearing shoulder/protrusion if it exists. I can get behind that.

don ferrette
12-16-2018, 07:52 PM
They limit fuel in every form of racing. In Indy, NASCAR or Formula One if there is extra laps too bad. Build in extra capacity. All my sprint boats are set-up for 8 laps.Mill, Race and cool down. No extra Laps in IMPBA. NAMBA that's another problem.No extra laps in IMPBA? Sorry but that is incorrect. Jump the start it's another lap. Lane infraction, that's a lap penalty. You get the point. And it's a tech'ing nightmare. WHY are some trying to make this so damn difficult????????

Doug Smock
12-16-2018, 08:53 PM
Play nice Don. We are trying to get a good 10 years out of this discussion.:laugh::beerchug:

don ferrette
12-16-2018, 08:56 PM
Play nice Don. We are trying to get a good 10 years out of this discussion.:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce ::bounce:

photohoward1
12-16-2018, 09:24 PM
Never really considered a jump start an extra lap penalty. You never started.


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TheShaughnessy
12-16-2018, 09:28 PM
Never really considered a jump start an extra lap penalty. You never started.


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that makes sense. Because you don't actually start you don't actually use any power either, not sure why I didn't see that before.

longballlumber
12-16-2018, 10:15 PM
Ummmm............ they came right off your list. :bounce:

Just because it’s on my data sheet doesn’t mean it’s a reliable motor. It was simply a data gathering exercise. I will take my chances on a 56mm AQ motor vs. the TP, Lepord, OSE Raider.... actually Darin’s test supports my preference. Doesn’t mean the AQ wins all the time, but I wouldn’t count them out along with the other 56mm motors (57mm w/bearing protrusion) :ohmy:

don ferrette
12-16-2018, 10:49 PM
Never really considered a jump start an extra lap penalty. You never started.


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I never said it was a "penalty" but you're still doing an extra lap. If you hit the line early and get called over at the start you've got to come all the way around again for your start THEN you have your race laps...........

HTVboats
12-17-2018, 09:42 AM
Whatever way you try to "limit" or level competition you have to consider tech and inspection after the race which puts an extra burden on the group holding the event. Needed protests leave hard feelings and a bad taste in general. You can mandate esc's or some sort of current limiter but that adds expense and complicates inspections. Battery size, capacity or weight still mandates after race inspection. A motor size limit is almost an easy visual by contestants and at worst done with a caliper or template. Keep it simple.
Mic