FE Nationals Questions

[Boat Racer]

Hi Everyone,

I am curious how does the FE racers feel about FE powered boats being included in the Gas/Nitro NAMBA Nationals for the last few years instead of having your own Nationals?

Better? Worse?

Thanks,
Karl

[Ken Haines]

Hi Everyone,

I am curious how does the FE racers feel about FE powered boats being included in the Gas/Nitro NAMBA Nationals for the last few years instead of having your own Nationals?

Better? Worse?

Thanks,
Karl

Hi Karl, Thanks for asking.
It will be interesting to hear other's thoughts on this very good question.
I, myself would prefer our own NAMBA FE Nationals.
Seems like the FE attendance is always higher for the stand alone
rather than the combined events. We do understand however that if clubs
do not step up for the running an FE Nationals that it is better to
have a combined event than no event at all for that given year.
Just my opinion,
Ken

[Steven Vaccaro]

What was the fe attendance last year? When its over we can compare to this year.

[T.S.Davis]

I'm in no way against mixed events. They're every bit as much fun as FE only events. I'm just not sure you're going to get a straight answer on this. Guys that used to be regular attendees simply didn't go. An 8 day deal with FE scattered here and there. They lost some FE freaks with the format. That said.......those not thrilled with it have no grounds to complain. It's literally a step up or shut up thing IMO. I never defend NAMBA anymore but they did what they had to.

The real problem is as Ken mentioned. There aren't FE clubs strong enough to do a stand alone event. Well.......very few. Clubs that have the people simply don't want to or they're spread too thin already, or they don't want to deal with what ever controversy that FE guys will conjure from nothing. FE is a weird thing. It's been a problem for a decade now. This is true for IMPBA too. People don't want to do it.

[Fluid]

Who says an FE Nationals has to gave a large attendance to be a success? When we put on the 2001 FE Nats in Alaska it put a stress on attendance due to the time/cost of travel. But we had a full three days of racing (this was before we had so many superflous classes like we do today) and a lot of fun. It was a LOT of work for our club, but most stepped up, even former members who hadn’t raced with us for a few years.

Call me crazy, but I always thought that the hobby was about having a good time with good people, not seeing how many racers we can assemble at one time....


.

[T.S.Davis]

That's fair Jay. I really only remember one FE nats that was big. That race nearly killed me.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Ive been to a small national event that was mostly attended by the hosting club members and had fun.

But to me, the word "national" means its like the Superbowl of fe boating. If there is a national event and its not drawing numbers from all over the country, its basically another club race.

[madmikepags]

CAN+WORMS=OPENED!!!!!!! WOW how honored I must feel to be "included" in your Gas/Nitro Nats!!! Keep it to yourself. Really NAMBLA KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!!!! You have done nothing right, you are systematically trying to get rid of FE and I don't know why? Starting with your combined nats last year and continuing this year to DESTROY a class (1/8 scale unlimited) That Has had a rule set that works for over a decade. You let 1-2 clubs dictate what the NATION should and could run. You included 7-8 FE classes in a 9 day event?????? I can race more in 1 day in my club and probably against better competition. The length of this event makes it almost impossible for anyone with a REAL life to attend......Hey I'm all for combined events, when they're done right. Not a 9 day marathon where I will run 12-16 times!!!???? You have made this race prohibitory to the FE racer. I've gone over this many times before. Don't call it a NATS if it IMPOSSIBLE for the "Nation" to Attend. Calll it your combined CLUSTERF@#K for all I care but it's not a NATS. Give a real FE club a chance to run a nats, I know most wont chomp at the bit but at least give it another shot. You know what I really don't give a crap what you do, The 4-5 big events I attend each year now are all IMPBA sanctioned so all you NAMBLA boys can go scratch.

[madmikepags]

NAMBLA-dictate........hahahahaha

[photohoward1]

Mike tell us how you really feel!

[T.S.Davis]

I know Howard. I told him the same thing. Hahaha

[T.S.Davis]

its basically another club race.

Unless your club is chocked full national caliber racers.

[madmikepags]

mine is!!!!!

[T.S.Davis]

mine is!!!!!

Us too Mike. Think we've held over a dozen national or world records now. Chris missed high points by like 11 points at our nats.

I mentioned this somewhere else. A national championship is defined by the guys that you raced against. If you race against guys you respect and KNOW are the real deal then the championship means something to you. This is kinda what Steve was eluding to I think. If it's just the local yocals (no offense the yocals) it has less meaning.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Us too Mike. Think we've held over a dozen national or world records now. Chris missed high points by like 11 points at our nats.

I mentioned this somewhere else. A national championship is defined by the guys that you raced against. If you race against guys you respect and KNOW are the real deal then the championship means something to you. This is kinda what Steve was eluding to I think. If it's just the local yocals (no offense the yocals) it has less meaning.


So I hope to race at Mikes club soon, All guys that I think are some of the top in the country. Does that mean its a national event?

In my little head, the idea of a national event is what Mike said. Guys coming from all over the country to duke it out. The more the better. Im in no way trying to diminish what the racers have done in Texas. Its not their fault that it was poorly attended. Its quite opposite, Im jealous I didnt have a week to go down and race. I dont ever see myself going to a race for a week and spending most days in the pits, while watching gas and nitro boats. I just dont have the time for it.

[T.S.Davis]

I dont ever see myself going to a race for a week and spending most days in the pits, while watching gas and nitro boats. I just dont have the time for it.

Me too. Or the patience. If I did a week event for 7 or 8 classes I would have to skip two or three other events to gather up the vacation time.

Something that's totally different with FE guys is that we're willing to run 10 classes at an event. Even if that means 5 or 6 a day. Not a lot of fuel guys will venture there.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Maybe some constructive critisism from a bunch of guys would help Namba. I know Mike most likely voiced his opinion, but more people may help.

It looks like they raced 10 classes over 8 days. They could easilly race those classes in two days. I'm sure more guys would go if the did them over 2 days, than over 8 days.

[Fluid]

This is a problem with a multi-fuel event. Most CDs will spread out the separate power classes over days to keep everyone there, otherwise it becomes three separate events held at the same week and place. Not everyone would be there for the three awards presentations and it wouldn’t feel like an organization.

For past 2-day District races the Dallas host club has put all FE classes on the same day, since most of the FE racers were not locals. But they include some gas and nitro classes in between the FE classes to give the FE racers some time to charge, etc. They held daily awards presentations each evening. This worked well, and may be a way to make more folks attend the event. Not sure why they didn’t do this for the Nats, probably because it wasn’t the way Nats were run in the past. Bottom line, you can’t please everyone.


.

[Steven Vaccaro]

This is a problem with a multi-fuel event. Most CDs will spread out the separate power classes over days to keep everyone there, otherwise it becomes three separate events held at the same week and place. Not everyone would be there for the three awards presentations and it wouldn’t feel like an organization.

.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[T.S.Davis]

. Bottom line, you can’t please everyone.
.

Absolutely can NOT please everyone. So......make choices that will get the most people TO your events instead of choices that make them say "not do'n it". They have to want to go.

Every venue does this to a degree. Class choices alone is directly linked to what will get people to an event. We changed our days of the week just to give guys a day for travel back home and be coherent for work Mondays. We even quized guys to see if they like that. Most did. Gauging the needs/desires of our intended audiance is what we all do. Don't always get it right. So we listen and try to keep the majority happy. The 8 day spread made many FE guys say no thank you.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Lots of the top FE guys seem to run every class. so 8 days of 1-2 a day is like watching paint dry for them.
I would be content to race 2 classes a day. If I can get a year where I can run 1 to 2 classes a day for 2-3 consecutive days, I might give it a go.

[rayzerdesigns]

So since I have attended both of the last two combined and the last stand alone nats for namba.. nOT NAMBLA as Pags stayed.. I love u like a brother mike but way out of line here man.. I myself like the combined..I agree that there isn’t every class available.. but even at the last stand alone nats in Seattle.. it’s no fun when there is just 3 or 4 boats in a class..I was a part of deciding which classes last year would get the most participation.. did we get it right?? Maybe maybe not.. but we tried..as I’m sure the guys from Dallas did..basically each fuel type is alliwed around 10 classes.. do of course you aren’t going to get to race everything.. but I also run gas.. so I enjoy it.. I also think that having all fuel types at same time is great.. as I now want to build a nitro boat or two.. and had plenty of people asking about fe boats..I can’t agree with Teri more in his statement.. the amount of clubs willing to step up and host a nationals is very few..so I’m grateful that we get any..combined or not..Pags u say u have enough.. why hasn’t ur club or members put in to host a national?? Instead of complaining about it.. do something about it.. put in to host a national event.. even if you just want it to be a fe event..Teri I know has been crazy enough to host more than one.. he knows it’s not a simple undertaking..I applaud his efforts.. as I do anyone that hosts events.. period..and the whole oh who did u race to win a national title has no merit if you didn’t show up to race..there are a lot of people I haven’t raced.. but there are a bunch I have..is namba doing it perfect?? No.. but they are trying.. I do think 10 days is to long and that has been addressed as next year they will be 7 days..let’s remember this is a hobby.. and all the bitching does nothing but spread like a disease.. and scares people off..I hope to see everyone racing.. good day folks

[T.S.Davis]

3 FE namba nats and an impba FE nats. I was quite the namba cheer leader for many years. Probably would have hosted more namba nats were it not for Russ. A single source nats is not a ton worse than a Michigan Cup. If you have a handful of guys pitching in its doable.

It's not that its mixed that makes people not attend. Model boaters are all insane. It's a fuel crossing disorder. Model boaters, even the nonracing guys.......great humans. About99% of them at least. It's that it's spread over so many days that is a deterrent.

Think about someone like Tom and I. We do 10 to 12 races a year. Then throw in an extra one that takes a week to 10 days. Live in a hotel for a week. Food out 3 meals a day..... every day. To race 10 classes? Massive commitment of resources. Begs the question doesn't it? What fer?

I think Ray does have a valid point though. Put up er shut up. Not quite what he said but close. That requires some dedicated namba fe clubs. I don't know of many.

[T.S.Davis]

Ray, no offense intended to ya. The reality is that if you beat Dave Newland to win a national championship it means more TO YOU than if you beat me to win a national championship. See what I mean? It makes a championship more delicious if you whoop guys you know are very skilled. Its not your fault Newland or maybe a Buass type guy wasn't there. That's namba's fault.

[rayzerdesigns]

Ray, no offense intended to ya. The reality is that if you beat Dave Newland to win a national championship it means more TO YOU than if you beat me to win a national championship. See what I mean? It makes a championship more delicious if you whoop guys you know are very skilled. Its not your fault Newland or maybe a Buass type guy wasn't there. That's namba's fault.

I don’t think it’s NAMBAS fault.. but we can agree to disagree..I will race anyone who shows up..doesn’t make it any better or any worse in my eyes..I enjoy racing anyone and everyone..everyone has their own skill set and all different..be it you.. ur kid.. or Newland.. or whoever..I just enjoy the competition

[D. Newland]

I'm sure we all understand NAMBA's Nat's direction and see the issues it's presenting here in this thread. Let's face it. NAMBA lost Michigan and it left a huge void. It's the only location that could/does pull off an FE Nat's to meet most expectations. I'm glad to see they are continuing their FE event dominance with IMPBA.

NAMBA's different now for FE, but there are some good things coming from it. For instance, the 2017 Vegas Nat's had 31 FE drivers attend. But, only 10 of them solely raced FE. 21 raced another power source, and 4 of those ran all 3 power sources. I think that kind of cross-over is healthy. Doesn't help the fact that Pags is as upset as he is (and I get it), but it's easy to recognize the shift that is happening.

As Ray said, NAMBA is sacrificing class offerings in nitro/gas/FE in order to fit a schedule in the allotted time, so I hope FE attendance continues. I went to Vegas in '17 for 2 reasons. To help my District pull off the event, and the FE schedule (thanks, Ray) allowed me to run the top 8 FE classes in only 4 days. I left after that. Dallas didn't quite have the schedule that Vegas had for my liking, which is OK. They needed to organize their event as they see fit. Plus, it was encroaching on my sailing weekend and that's taking precedence with me lately.

NAMBA has 2019 (Dist 20 Utah/Colorado), 2020 (Alabama) and 2021 Nat's Districts already picked, with 2021 being the 50th Anniversary in Vegas. I told Ken I'll be in Vegas mainly just to get him to drive out again so we can count how many blown trailer tires, blown transmissions and blown rear ends he has for that trip.

Oh, and last time I checked, NAMBA FE still has Nat's rules in the books. Not sure it will happen again, but it's there. Right next to ECO.

[rayzerdesigns]

On that note..the 50th anniversary has been moved to Vegas for 2021

[T.S.Davis]

.......... but it's there. Right next to ECO.

Dave, I read that with a "BAZzINGA!" at the end. You didn't type it but I heard it in my head. .........the voices....

Someone suggested to me more than once that we should just host the FE nats in MI every year. Which always makes me spontaneously blurt out a string of expletives. Not all of them are 4 letters but most are.

I guess FE is already going the way of the dodo bird. Same way nitro died. Not enough interest and/or too complicated so the numbers aren't there. There aren't many stand alone nitro events anymore either. Mixed races or no races. I doubt seriously there will be an IMPBA FE nats this year either.

Curiosity? How did they come up with 8 days? Why not 21 days? Or how about 30 days? No more ridiculous than 8. Maybe it should be over a whole summer. Ludicrous? So is 8 flipp'n days.

[rayzerdesigns]

It’s all been a trial.. from what I understand it will be max 7 days now

[longballlumber]

I keep reading threads and posts about FE racing events... but do we TRULY have an good understanding of the numbers association to each org and how many racers we have racing FE boats? Mr. Newland hinted at it above. Speaking strictly FE, I think we all have our heads in the sand about the health of FE racing. I think P-Limited has given us a false positive that we are doing OK.

I don't have a good feel for NAMBA, but I would be willing to estimate the IMPBA has round 50 or less of what I would be willing to consider a "committed" FE racer. I might be wrong, and frankly I hope I am. Think about that for a moment... The IMPBA has 1006 registered members. Assuming my number is close; that is ONLY 5% of the 2018 membership. If we want to increase the lure of National Events, we need more racers! I know many won't find my post helpful, but it is a bit of reality that we all need to realize. just my 2 pennies.

[T.S.Davis]

we need more racers!

Well there's the $10000 question. How do we get em? I think collecting the participants to justify events was easier when most of FE (not all) ran under one freak flag. Kinda split up now.

Our local numbers are down too. I keep asking "how come" and guys are saying they're just too busy. Not sure if that's a sign of prosperity or just a lack of interest. Guyss just have other things to play with right now. I don't have a feel for how to get more people to try it. I know for me..........I'm kinda maxed out. Running some races, supporting some races by attending, helping guys that want it, helping guys that are too shy or timid to ask for it. Keep grinding is all I can do.

Curious, does anyone know of another FE only event in the US besides the Michigan Cup? I can't think of one. Club races sure but a sanctioned event I'm ignorant.

[HTVboats]

"P/limited giving us a false positive." I agree with that. The reason "P" limited is successful is cost and low tech. The step up from limited is expensive and requires equipment knowledge. Sure you can run full P or Q on a reasonable budget but how many will build and stay interested when it takes an $800 ESC and $600 motor to compete. The gap from base to top shelf is large. The numbers will grow but slower than you think. Technology and cost are moving fast and rules very slow. The spec arguments and lack of positive changes are not helping. If you like racing against the same old guys you have been, fine. I guess at 70 I am surely an old guy and have a short expiration date so I won't be around much longer. Yep the old guys are fading out. Where are the new racers?
Mic

[Rookieboater]

NAMBA will have a stand alone FE Nats when a club steps up to do it. Plane and simple.

If we did not combine it into the Nitro Gas Nats then it would not have happened in the last two years and next year as well. My club is considering a stand alone NAMBA Nats in 2020. Our concern is how many racers we would get to attend. It doesn't have to be a large turnout but it would need to be 15 racers from out of our club to make it worth while. Not sure how many we could get to come to Colorado.

Would be nice though.

[electric]

Having just finished my first NAMBA Nat's I guess I can wade into this diverse and interesting conversation. First a shout out to Jay, Jim V. and HOTMBC in general as it takes a few good leaders to make a local club go. I did appreciate that Dallas stacked more FE towards the latter part of the event. I raced Thursday-Saturday and that had 5 FE classes, so basically two each day with one (T-Mono) on one day. The Dallas group did an excellent job and worked hard at it all week. I do think that a week long event is challenge for those of us who work and have families, but really, how could it be shorter as they were racing boats non-stop from morning to dark the entire week! I guess less classes.

Although I did not do well in p-limited mono, I did enjoy it because of the larger number of racers. The more the merrier as they say. I would comment that we had a "spec" class for 1/8 scale hydro with a limit on motors KV and prop size. This evened out the field and made for some fun racing. It also got a good number of racers(maybe because of less cost?) and I just like seeing the big hydro's go around! I think the cost factor, as someone pointed out earlier, as you jump up from the limited classes plays a big role in the lack of racers. Frankly, not everyone wants to race either, some just enjoy running their boats and the social aspects of the club. We have a few that just like to go SAW and see how fast they can go which can also be a blast. So measuring the involvement just at the races is one factor, but there is also the number of people showing up for the club events to just run boats.

Maybe someone can tell me if the number of FE racers going up or down over time? Not sure if each District knows that? I would say here in Texas it has stayed a bit constant as a few leave and then a few show up over time. It has not grown though and it's usually the same faces. We would ALL like more racers at the events, but it seems to be a issue that has not changed much over the years.