Namba Voting for Modification and Additions for Electric 1/8 Scale Unlimited Hydro"

[Steven Vaccaro]

Before I vote Id like to hear the props and cons to this.

Proposal 4 - Modification and addition of rules for Electric 1/8 Scale Unlimited Hydroplane in Section 28 - Electric.

Reasoning:

Current rule:
E. SPECIALITY CLASSES
6. ELECTRIC 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE
b. Motor Specifications
i) Power parameters for this class shall comply with class "T" specifications, as noted in rule D.1.a in this section
Note: “T” specs = Any amount and/or size of motors / 18.50 - 42.30 Volts / 12000 MaH max

Proposed rule:
E. SPECIALITY CLASSES
6. ELECTRIC 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE
b. Power Specifications
i) Approved Motors
(a) NEU 1527 1.5Y 850KV
(b) HET Typhoon 700-98 840KV
(c) Turnigy SK3-3994 850KV
ii) Twin motors are not allowed.
c. Drivetrain Specifications
i) Either a cable or hard shafts may be used, no gear boxes allowed.
ii) Any propeller may be used up to maximum of 57mm in diameter.
d. Electronic Speed Controls (ESC)
i) Any ESC may be used as long as it is rated to a minimum 130 Amps and rated to handle a minimum of 8S battery configuration.
ii) Anti-spark resistors are advised on all speed controllers.
e. Batteries
i) A maximum capacity of 8S Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries are allowed. The maximum mAh capacity of the battery pack(s) will not exceed 6000 mAh. Only LiPo batteries with a cell rating of 4.20 or less volts per cell are allowed.
ii) LiHV batteries with per cell capacities to 4.35 volts or higher are not allowed.
iii) Manufacturer’s minimum discharge of 30C constant but no higher than 65C constant is allowed.

[Darin Jordan]

Think P-LTD, only bigger...

I'm a big NO on the "motor list"...

[Steven Vaccaro]

Think P-LTD, only bigger...

I'm a big NO on the "motor list"... I was thinking the same, but would like to hear from racers first.
It seems there is a link to download the proposal, but it doesn't work for me. I havent heard much on this particular class. Im wondering who proposed this and what their current concerns are.

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah, that's nuts. Exactly what's wrong with IMPBA's version. You'll be saddled to what ever the tech is today. Turnigy and HET are not going to be worried about production of motors for toy boats. At least with Neu you could plead with him should he ever move on from the 1527 but at that point just call it Neu Scale hydro. Single source is bad mojo.
850kv is too low for 8s too. Why 8s? We've already established that some of these boats are starved for power.
How do you tech a battery to prove it's only 6000mah? The label I guess.
How do you verify that a pack is only 65c rated? Label again. When 65c stops being produced (cuz it will) the class will just stop running I guess.
How do you prove a cell is 4.2 volts per cell "rated"?

Anything you can't prove......can't be a rule. That proposal is a disaster. haha It's like a wrote it myself.

[T.S.Davis]

Something just occurred to me. I apologize. I don't even vote NAMBA anymore.

[pescador]

Not too thrilled that's for sure, I bought enough 5s packs last year to run without charging between heats.

[photohoward1]

So the rules are for like 5 Boats?

[Steven Vaccaro]

Something just occurred to me. I apologize. I don't even vote NAMBA anymore.


Maybe to much of this? "glue sniffer"

[Doug Smock]

>>>> http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/news/jexnma3g20/NAMBA-proposal-for-electric-18th-scale-hydroplane

[raptor347]

As far as I can tell, this is being driven by two clubs. One is RCU in WA the other in TX. Both long time scale clubs, but relatively new to FE 1/8.

The proposed rule set has all the problems we've seen in P-ltd with a couple extra added.

This rule will obsolete most of the boats on the east coast.

Not interested in P-ltd on a grand scale. Voted No.

[Steven Vaccaro]

>>>> http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/news/jexnma3g20/NAMBA-proposal-for-electric-18th-scale-hydroplane

Thanks!

[Doug Smock]

[QUOTE=T.S.Davis;712681]Yeah, that's nuts. Exactly what's wrong with IMPBA's version. [QUOTE]

:blah::blah: :laugh::tongue:

[Doby]

Need to start new threads...
1) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited Motor Discussion"
2) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited Battery Discussion"
3) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited ESC Discussion"
4) "NAMBA 1/8th Scale Limited Prop Diameter Discussion"

[T.S.Davis]

:blah::blah: :laugh::tongue:

haha I wondered if you'd see that. The cost to import a brand new 370 Plettenberg motor is $1000 now. Practical solution. Seems ligit. The good news is that the ESC Plett recommends is only another $1000.

Something I find interesting about both organization is how easy easy easy it was to get rules added vs how utterly impossible it is to change or alter them once in.

Limited was a slam dunk for NAMBA back in the day. Changing or moving to the next gen? Good luck.

Randal wrote the IMPBA FE scale rules, ran a year trial for which there were maybe 3 heats organization wide, went to a vote, slam dunk. But change em? OH MY GOODNESS! THAT WILL RUIN EVERYTHING!

We're a bunch of weird dudes.

[CraigP]

Good luck getting a bunch of “win at all cost” people together to come up with what really should be, some simple solutions! With all those recommended rules changes, it looks like there could be a wide open door for the volume of challenges to race results to increase. This really looks ridiculous looking from the outside in. And guys, I’ve been dealing with sactioning bodies in limited and unlimited boats for most of my life. You guys sound just like them, maybe even worse! These are toy boats, for God’s sake! Sorry for the critique, but this whole thing has horrible optics...

[longballlumber]

Regardless of organization the 1/8 scale class NEEDS to better control available power. There is a reason the Nitro 1/8 scale class ONLY allows .67ci motor and no bigger. If a guy showed up at an event with an 1/8 scale with an .80/.90/1.01 motor in his boat he WOULDN’T be allow to race.

The question becomes how to develop a FE rule set that allows racers options, but keeps power on a reasonable level across the options.

Why FE boaters insist on "needing" to have gobbs of power is beyond me.

[CraigP]

I agree, Limited classes should be about boat setup skills and driving ability. It’s like P-Limited, where they take a tiny motor rated for 80A or less, and pack 120-150A thru it and see who can live the longest. There will always be cheaters in racing, it’s a bunch of type A guys and it’s going to happen. I recommended a dyno setup to check power at the prop and got all kinds of objections. But I think they were just showing their dirty laundry, because if it’s supposed to have a limited battery, ESC and motor, then it HAS to have a given max power at the prop. Tech is easy, you measure the voltage (boats must run thru Tech at full charge), take off the prop and slide on the dyno motor. The ESC must be programmed for max throttle (power up transmitter with throttle wide open). Then perform the test. The brushed motor on the end of the prop shaft is hooked to a set of resistors. The voltage over the resistors is measured at full throttle, the system checks RPM and computes the full power output. Prop diameter and pitch is checked while it’s off the boat in dyno check. I don’t think there will ever be a resolution to this without an End of the Line Power Check...

[T.S.Davis]

There will always be cheaters in racing, it’s a bunch of type A guys and it’s going to happen.

I don't think that's accurate with FE guys. I've been racing locally and nationally for about 18 years (guessing). I've been CD for multiple large events. I've gone out of my way to try to catch guys cheating. Even checking their gear when they don't even know I'm checking. I'm only aware of one guy in 18 years that was skirting the rules. What he was doing wasn't illegal at the time. It was just extremely unsafe and put his fellow boaters at risk of injury. Everyone that runs nationally knows who he is and what he was doing. It was one of multiple things he's done to embarrass organized racing. Multiple rules were written or changed just for him. One guy. Guys that know the truth about him have ZERO respect for him by the way.

The problem you'll run into Mike, is that guys will never agree on a scale......ish speed.

We have a limits based on boat size and voltage for every other FE class outside of limited/spec. Boat length x voltage = max manageable speed. Scale could be the same. Scale (size) x voltage = max drive able boat. But with scale, some have a notion that the boats should only be going "x" so they look like scale speeds. What that means to each guy is obviously subjective. In my head the phrase "unlimited" implies......well......unlimited. I'm clearly alone in my thinking though. I get that. The alternative for me is to not participate in a big spec class. That's on me.

Not yelling or laying on the floor of my office kicking my feet BTW. Just communicating.

[CraigP]

Terry, I respect you very much, you are a voice of reason on this forum, always have been. But there must be a reason(s) that the tech is being driven to this level of detail. I agree with you, cheating is probably too harsh a word to impart to racers in general, I apologize for that. Let’s just say there’s a high zeal of enthusiasm. But to someone that has 5 boats, and is looking in the rule book where I can race them, it just looks like a minefield.

I agree with your Unlimited approach. Min/Max Length and Min/Max Weight. All else goes... I could get excited about a class like that! P Sport is close...

[longballlumber]

Assuming that we are talking about FE only heats and not “mixed” heats; “speed” shouldn’t be part of the discussion. Boat speed is a resultant of the power system efficiency and build experience. The term “Unlimited” is carry over from original full sized boats. The term Unlimited has nothing to do with the RC scaled context of the class.

Back to Steve’s original question…

As a voting NAMBA member as well, I understand what they are trying to do with the new rule set but I am afraid it’s not the best solution. Nor do I agree the current rules in place are the good solution either. YES, 1/8 scale is a special class that requires special rules. As I have already voiced my opinion above explaining why needs to be better control of the available power for THIS class.

Power is being “Limited” in the 1/10 scale classes why would 1/8 scale be any different?

If people want to GO NUTS with power and full bodied hydroplane hulls; run a S/T Sport Hydro class!

[Darin Jordan]

Putting UN-enforcable rules in place leads to, well... "P-LTD" style discussions. No thanks.

How exactly do you verify that the motor is a NEU 1527 1.5Y 850KV ??

You can't... and that's just for starters.

Can't equate FE to Nitro when it comes to limits. IC engines are MUCH simpler to verify.

[photohoward1]

The only way to really limit power is voltage and amp draw. ****WATTS*** would make it fair. No problem on Volts. No reliable way to limit amp draw.
Would solve all problems. Guys could use 3080 lehners but if you limit it to 3500-4000 watts problem would be solved. Same thing for P spec...Limit watts to 1000 and who cares what motor a guy uses. ***PROVE ME WRONG***

[Doug Smock]

haha I wondered if you'd see that. The cost to import a brand new 370 Plettenberg motor is $1000 now. Practical solution. Seems ligit. The good news is that the ESC Plett recommends is only another $1000.

Something I find interesting about both organization is how easy easy easy it was to get rules added vs how utterly impossible it is to change or alter them once in.

Limited was a slam dunk for NAMBA back in the day. Changing or moving to the next gen? Good luck.

Randal wrote the IMPBA FE scale rules, ran a year trial for which there were maybe 3 heats organization wide, went to a vote, slam dunk. But change em? OH MY GOODNESS! THAT WILL RUIN EVERYTHING!

We're a bunch of weird dudes.

Yeah I took the bait. And you're still wrong...:hug1:
The Scale rules could be changed easily if a reasonable proposal was put in front of the BOD. That hasn't happened.
Find some motors with VERY similar power and let the vetting begin.:wink:

Nitro and Gas are easy, DISPLACEMENT! FE is flawed in this respect. A guy can get as "stoopid" as he wants to with power in all the other classes (right?:wink:), we can't let that happen to scale.

Craig there are only a few "win at all cost" guys out there. We just have to :olleyes:.

[T.S.Davis]

Power is being “Limited” in the 1/10 scale classes why would 1/8 scale be any different?

Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age. Or maybe Mike is getting better at persuading me. That's a great comparison sir.

Doug, yes there are lots of classes to go ludicrous speed. Yer still entitled to punch me in the head one time. You've earned it. :beerchug:

We're off on a tangent but I know where Mikes head goes on things like this.......what if anything actually would expand participation in scale? Both orgs rules are kinda screwy right now. Is there some formula that would make a builder want to do it? It's not really happening right now. It could be that cost is too obscene to even worry about it. Separate thread worthy.

Craig, I hear ya. If you're truly racing you reach down in there and try to scrape out every last nugget of speed you can find. Like a bag of chips. Anything left behind is waste. It's not cheating until the bag rips and you have chips in yer lap.

[CraigP]

The only way to really limit power is voltage and amp draw. ****WATTS*** would make it fair. No problem on Volts. No reliable way to limit amp draw.
Would solve all problems. Guys could use 3080 lehners but if you limit it to 3500-4000 watts problem would be solved. Same thing for P spec...Limit watts to 1000 and who cares what motor a guy uses. ***PROVE ME WRONG***

Agreed, 100%. There’s only one practical way to do this in FE, power limiters. They are running them in Europe. We need a USA design...

[Doug Smock]

Scale is a tough sell. Not everyone digs the class, the build, and they are expensive. Shoot, I shouldn't have one, REALLY hard to justify the cost. I got hooked big time being a rent a driver for four years running a nitro scale so the class would make in our GP Series. Had an absolute blast!! Having a blast racing the Squire with them now. It works with the right approach but of course you have to have the right bunch of guys.

[eric113]

I get it, have to start somewhere. What I don’t get is the C rating of 65c nor do I agree with that. It much easier to find 70+C rating packs. The brand motors is also something I don’t understand. With rc company’s coming and going why choke it down so much?

[jevmax]

As far as I can tell, this is being driven by two clubs. One is RCU in WA the other in TX. Both long time scale clubs, but relatively new to FE 1/8.

The proposed rule set has all the problems we've seen in P-ltd with a couple extra added.

This rule will obsolete most of the boats on the east coast.

Not interested in P-ltd on a grand scale. Voted No.

I agree Brian. I don’t see anything wrong with the rules as they are today. That proposal would be creating an “extremely” limited class, and it even includes specifications that would be impossible to measure. I vote no.

[properchopper]

1/8 Scale hasn't even made the 3-boat minimum at SCSTA events for over a year. Last two events of last year no FE Class made the cutoff. (Nitro runs also). Trying something new this Saturday at the first SCSTA race : 4- boat min BUT if some of the new guys we've invited (from Inland Empire & Hansen Res) show with close but slightly outside the rules boats(only 4S in the "Ltd 'tho) we'll let them run. Handicap the points if need be. I don't need any more Starbucks gift cards anyway. 80% rule adherance = the class qualifies. 100% adherance and possibly no Class could result. We'll see. BTW We've adopted the motor size rule for Ltd. It'd a friggin'CLUB race so no infringrement on National rule parameters whatever they are or will be. I'm just in it for the fun (and the donuts:wink:)

157880 157881

[T.S.Davis]

The IMPBA FE Nats will be one of the largest races of the season. Speculation but chances are. We barely made the cut off for scale. There are a couple that wont be racing as they aren't legal. I don't know that it's a rule thing keeping numbers low for that class. It may simply be as Doug mentioned. Tough sell. Pricey. Performance/thrill to dollar ratio? Maybe 60mph.......ish. You can go faster with a P sport for less than half the money.

I don't have the answer.

10th scale runs maybe 50mph and costs maybe a 1/3 of an 1/8 scale if you build yourself. That class is a riot. Our rules are a little more loosey goosey. The parity does add to it. That's a one motor class. Not deliberately. It's just turned out that way. Miss a turn and you get passed. That's okay though cuz the guy that passed you will probably turn in late on the next turn due to shock of having passed someone. haha Turning left seems to even out the playing field. Not sure why that is either. Sure is fun. If yer not laughing at the end yer doing it wrong.

[rayzerdesigns]

Just for the record I’m against this scale proposal.. I think the boats are underpowered.. 8s in a 57mm prop 850 kv.. like watching paint dry.. sorry.. at the fe nats in 2016 the 10s boats ran better in my opinion

[longballlumber]

There was a post on IW stating this proposal was approved by the membership. I went to the NAMBA website to confirm.

Wow, that was a heck of a swing OPEN motors up to 10S voltage to a limit of 3 motors, 8S voltage, and prop diameter limit. Not that I agree with the new NAMBA rules, but something in the middle would have been more acceptable. This is going to make having an 1/8 scale boat that is legal for both organizations really tough!

[rayzerdesigns]

I agree.. and also these boats are way under powered now..and def would’ve been nice somewhere in middle ground..

[T.S.Davis]

This is where IMPBA has an advantage over NAMBA. Proposals get discussed by the BOD including class directors before they get voted on. They look at the "why", the pros and cons, etc. Sometimes ideas get people thinking and talking about a problem. An even better solution may result in the end. The BOD are elected to repressent the best interest of their respective districts for this purpose.

If I were racing at a NAMBA event if would be worth the price of admission to pay the protest fee just to watch the carnage unfold.

Prove to me that a motors is 850kv, that a cell is truly only capable of 4.2v per cell, that cells are actually 65c, and that they are actually only 6000mah. Maybe 4 protest on 4 different boats. Should be a scream to watch.

[Doug Smock]

I agree something in the middle would have been nice. I hope it works out and the class flourishes..

[rayzerdesigns]

This is where IMPBA has an advantage over NAMBA. Proposals get discussed by the BOD including class directors before they get voted on. They look at the "why", the pros and cons, etc. Sometimes ideas get people thinking and talking about a problem. An even better solution may result in the end. The BOD are elected to repressent the best interest of their respective districts for this purpose.

If I were racing at a NAMBA event if would be worth the price of admission to pay the protest fee just to watch the carnage unfold.

Prove to me that a motors is 850kv, that a cell is truly only capable of 4.2v per cell, that cells are actually 65c, and that they are actually only 6000mah. Maybe 4 protest on 4 different boats. Should be a scream to watch.
Maybe come to nats in Dallas this year.. I’m feeling a protest coming

[pescador]

Yeah not too impressed after buying a bunch of 5s packs last year, I’ll run 10s with our club and skip running scale at the Nats I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[T.S.Davis]

I don't think so Ray. Traveled to the Spring nats, hosting a nats, club racing, traveling to the CanAm, and hopefully a time trial somewhere. No telling if Flint will ever be a body of water again. You can (no joke) walk across that sucker now. Looks like a ghetto version of the salt flats at the moment. The risk of burn out is real for me. Plus it's NAMBA. Outside of the nats are there any NAMBA events offering FE east of California this year? I'm totally ignorant on that being out of the loop.

Hey, if you get a sticker from a manufacturer that says 65c and slap it onto a 100c pack it's legal right? You don't need a legal cell. You need a legal label.

Maybe Brian will make the trip so he can prove all these un..... provable things. Disassemble the packs. Pull the motors apart and count the winds maybe. Make sure it has factory bearings and wire. Maybe that isn't part of the rule. Maybe just an 850kv stamp on the can is all you need. Oh! An 850kv sticker! Done. Neu motors come with stickers from the factory.

Maybe the tech is easier than we think. Check all the labels and you're done.

All the problems we've found with limited they just added to scale and then some.

[rayzerdesigns]

I don't think so Ray. Traveled to the Spring nats, hosting a nats, club racing, traveling to the CanAm, and hopefully a time trial somewhere. No telling if Flint will ever be a body of water again. You can (no joke) walk across that sucker now. Looks like a ghetto version of the salt flats at the moment. The risk of burn out is real for me. Plus it's NAMBA. Outside of the nats are there any NAMBA events offering FE east of California this year? I'm totally ignorant on that being out of the loop.

Hey, if you get a sticker from a manufacturer that says 65c and slap it onto a 100c pack it's legal right? You don't need a legal cell. You need a legal label.

Maybe Brian will make the trip so he can prove all these un..... provable things. Disassemble the packs. Pull the motors apart and count the winds maybe. Make sure it has factory bearings and wire. Maybe that isn't part of the rule. Maybe just an 850kv stamp on the can is all you need. Oh! An 850kv sticker! Done. Neu motors come with stickers from the factory.

Maybe the tech is easier than we think. Check all the labels and you're done.

All the problems we've found with limited they just added to scale and then some.

Took the words right out of my mouth..I will not run 1/5 fe now at nats..

[rayzerdesigns]

Or just put 4s stickers on my 5s packs.. and yes on how do u prove kv?? I’m willing to bet I’m the only one there that can check kv of a motor..guess need to have Neu wind some 100kv 1527s and just out a correct sticker on those too..

[Doby]

Guess its time to nail my 1/8th Executone on the wall and put a frame around it...shame.

[T.S.Davis]

You don't race NAMBA John.

[eric113]

Even the limited classes aren’t this choked down.

[leonard feeback]

Anybody want to buy my 1/8th scale? So much BS on this issue and probably half the people don't build or race the class.
Leonard Feeback

[T.S.Davis]

Just go nitro. Sounds like a lot less hand wringing.

[raptor347]

I said there were some problems with the rule proposal.

First off, unlike P-ltd and 1/10 scale, the new 1/8 scale rule doesn't state that the motors must be run as delivered from the factory, so modding is fair game. The factory markings constitute a legal motor and should remain visible for inspection. Missing or altered factory markings will constitute an illegal motor.

Definitive battery tech is pretty much impossible at the pond (and difficult in the shop), so all cells will require a factory label to verify capacity and discharge rate. Re-wrapped or unreadable labels will not be allowed for competition. The appropriate factory label and pre-heat voltage check will count for tech.

Factory labels on ESC's will be required to verify they meet the requirements for rule 6.d.i.

Prop diameter should be checked each heat at the same time pre-heat battery voltage is checked. Should be an easy fixture to build/use.

That should cover tech inspection for the new FE 1/8 scale rules.

[Doby]

You don't race NAMBA John.

I know...it would just be nice if both organizations were trashed and made into one with a common set of rules for all classes. Would make life in general easier.

[leonard feeback]

Terry, I did run nitro 1/8 th scale.

[madmikepags]

As an Avid Scale racer, 2 time NAMBA scale "UNLIMITED" National Champion, and owner of 4, yes 4 scale boats that don't conform to these rules, I would now have to reconfigure all of my boats. So will the other 6 guys in my club. This is beyond unfair. I would have to buy all new 4 cell batteries. New motors and retest and retune my boats that I have spent many YEARS testing and tuning to get them where they are. I don't know what the thought is behind these rules??? 3 of my boats simply could not run with these rules, they are too heavy. So lets say we can only use a 45mm prop for P-limited classes too????
I have 350 props and I should be allowed to chose any prop I want to run on my boat. And what happens to the guy that doesn't know anything about props and how to mod or tune them? I have 50mm props that run faster than most guys 57mm props! how fair is that, now that he doesn't have enough knowledge to get the most out of the power limits that would be imposed. This is a rediculous proposal that has no merit, it's called "UNLIMITED" for a reason. Thats my opinion.

[raptor347]

Mike,
Sorry, but the proposal passed 369 to 157. We're stuck with it.

The reality is you can run them in your club just as you always have. The new rule set will be used at nationals and time trials.

[T.S.Davis]

Mike, you could just run IMPBA. Your boats are legal as is. From memory that is.

[Doug Smock]

http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=74695&hl=

[T.S.Davis]

http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=74695&hl=

bahahahahahahahaha

[Fluid]

I’ve stayed out of this discussion since I don’t have a dog in the hunt, but it seems that those who proposed the new rules got their wish. (I’m surprised so many members even voted.) I wonder how many racers with newly-illegal boats will modify them so they fit the new rules.

Actually, as Brian stated NAMBA clubs can run whatever rules they want. They can still travel all over the country to race at each other’s events - just not at the Nats or at time trials. But wait, the Nats host club could run an “exhibition class” of 1/8 boats under the old rules. Seems that may be the best solution for those who are so unhappy, but then I don’t even own an 1/8th scale boat.


.

[madmikepags]

WELL screw NAMBA I will have my club and implore all NY NJ and PA clubs switch to IMPBA and I will never race a NAMBA race again, except this nationals and just scale to annihilate everyone with their new rules, I just went out this morning and tested my new 8 cell setup and its 68mph down the staright 4 mph slower than my 10 cell setup. Im still pissed BC my other 3 boats wont run on 8 cell. See u all in texas.

[rayzerdesigns]

10s is way more efficient.. but they got their spec 1/8 now..didn’t know u we’re going mikey.. will see u there

[madmikepags]

Like I said just decided I'm going just to run scale!

[madmikepags]

Yup 10s way more efficient, for a full race plus a mill lap with my 10s setup I use 2800mah, with this setup I ran today I used about 4200mah, thats 50% more power than my 10s setup and EVERYTHING motor battery and speedo were all much hotter.
10s:
Motor 111'
speedo 117'
batts 108'
8s
motor 144'
speedo 167'
batts 141'
All to go 4mph SLOWER!!!!

Thats ludicrous, I wont subject my equipment to that abuse on a regular basis. (or for any period of time)
I pride myself on my setups being fast and efficient. This is just so bad, these people want to limit the speeds at the cost of ruinung their equipment. Did anyone even think this one out??? And by the way I got these speeds and temps using only a 52mm prop, not even close to the max diameter allowed. The rule is stupid the people who proposed it are stupid and the people who voted for it are STUPID. I'm not mincing words you are all STUPID STUPID STUPID. I'm so hell bent to destroy all of you at "your" nats that I will go thru a motor speedo and batts in every heat just to beat you all.
SOOOOO PISSED!!!!!

[T.S.Davis]

Yer just going to prove their concept Mikey.

[madmikepags]

Oh BTW with this setup I ran 6 laps on a legal course in 75 seconds just so u guys have a number to shoot for!!!! My fast lap was 11.5 seconds.

[madmikepags]

NO I'm not I'm gonna blow *!***!***!***!** up every round

[T.S.Davis]

Double post......

[madmikepags]

They wanna go slower!!! this is not the way!!! the way we did it in our district BC we run nitro and electric together is no elecric boat was allowed to go over 52mph, checked by GPS with a 3 mph grace due to wind, water and gps inaccuracy and other factors. You can pick up GPS units for 25-30 bucks, throw them in the boat for each heat. Simple easy and cheap, and if your club cant afford 150-200 bucks then ur club sucks.

[T.S.Davis]

Mike, you missed the boat. The time to throw a fit was before it was voted on. Yer screwed now.

What other NAMBA FE event is there in NA that you attend anyway?. Kind of irrelevant at this point.

[Ken Haines]

Guys I'm pulling some discussion over here from International Waters
The Thread is titled "ELECTRIC RULES" started by Lohring Miller....here it is:
================================================== ===========================

As everyone knows electric motor input power in watts equals volts times amps. The similar relationship in piston engines is power equals cylinder pressure times displacement times rpm. Regulating the displacement in IC engines forced innovations that resulted in smaller engines with higher cylinder pressures operating at higher rpm to generate the same power. Think the 1956 Chrysler 300 versus today's Honda Civic type R both with around 300 hp. This pace was slow in both model and full size engines. However a 1950s model engine like the McCoy 60 produced around 1 hp while today's similar size, tuned pipe engines can produce over 4 hp.
Today something is happening much more quickly in electric power. Think golf carts versus the Tesla model S. Lithium polymer batteries were a game changer. Their very low internal resistance allows much higher currents than previous battery types. Before this batteries were the limiting factor. By only regulating input voltage with lithium polymer batteries we encourage innovation in motors and speed controls. This innovation today allows close to 30 hp input power (600 amps times 37 volts) for short times like SAW runs. With 1200 mah packs 400 amps will still give a 1.8 minute run time, enough for a standard heat race. Commercially available speed controls can deliver over 300 amps when water cooled.
One solution has been the P limited classes. By restricting the motor, it becomes the "fuse" limiting power. If you restrict the ESC choice, that limits power as well with the ESC as the "fuse". How expensive do you want this current limiting method to be? Motors are getting inexpensive. The fastest P limited racer in our club paid $27 for his motor. Competition airplanes use a more elegant solution involving electronic controls that limit input power. Simpler solutions that have been race tested involve limiting propeller diameter as well as motor KV and size.
Another solution has been to limit hull length. I watched Brian Buaas set two lap records in several voltage classes with the same small sport hydro. It just got harder to drive at the higher power levels. T class boats can be 60" long, the NAMBA maximum. The most powerful IC engines in a twin configuration probably deliver around 10 to 15 hp. Do we really want to allow electric power plants with more than twice that? What are some other current limiting rule proposals?
Lohring Miller
PS: Engineering is done with numbers. Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

================================================== ================================================== ======================

Reply By Ken Haines

Lohring, here is the problem; those of us that race all over the country were not any part of this new scale rule.
You can theorize all you want and that is definitely opinion, but up until recently our current rule set worked. Additionally this 1/8th scale unlimited Hydra class was gaining popularity at some of the larger races with the original rule set. I actually very recently bought some of this equipment that now is illegal in NAMBA. So instead of setting up a limited rule set or actually new limited version class for the Northwest region clubs someone decided to just set the class on its head. It would be on par with the P-Ltd rule set being put in place for all the regular P Classes, and all the current P-Mono’s, P-Cat’s and P-Hydro’s then being illegal. Now you can debate here with all this technical jargon but most of the avid active racers in the rest of the country are upset. According to the way the rules can get passed someone that races very minimally or regionally at the most could in theory get a rule passed that limits many other classes across the country. My guess is that the NAMBA fuel guys voted yes because they thought with info that they had heard this was a good thing. This is why when a rule change that is not for electric, I simply abstain as it is really none of my business. I would hope in the future our electric rule votes would be respected in the same way.

On an older note weren’t you one of the crowd years ago arguing against hull limits and against 2p lipo set-ups. If I am wrong on that recollection I apologize, but that is what I seem to remember of the time that I visited your club at the 2007 Nat's. I believe we had a heated argument about that during my visit.....Kind of Ironic

================================================== ================================================== ==========================

Reply by Mike Hughes
Not all fuel guys vote for it. My son and I voted against. Not fair to limit the class that way. Now people with the 10S are illegal.

Mike
================================================== ================================================== =====================

Reply by Bill Brandt
World Racer

To propose a rule change, as I was told by our district director, a club has to run that rule for at least one year. RCU has been running this proposed rule for 3 years. My Texas friends reached out to me and together we proposed this change, although done through our District 8.
Once again the Namba Nats in Las Vegas were very lightly supported by 1/8 FE, in part because of the existing poor rule. Most areas that run 1/8 Scale FE run 8S. They run motors and escs that were readily available and new racers didn’t have to go through a steep and often expensive learning curve to race.
It appears that most dissenters of the rule change don’t themselves run the class. If they are advocates of 10S it’s usually because they’re from clubs that combine nitro and FE because they don’t have stand alone numbers.
If there aren’t enough motor choices then look for other 850 kv motors that will work and propose them down the road.
My customers across the US and in fact around the globe have applauded the change and the clarity it brings to 1/8 Scale FE
================================================== ================================================== ==================

Ok....I threw the meat on the table please reply appropriately maybe over on IW.
Thx, Ken Haines

[Doby]

"The maximum mAh capacity of the battery pack(s) will not exceed 6000 mAh."

So 6000 max on board during the race?
Or would 2, 8S packs of 6000 mah each in parallel for 12000 mah be allowed?

Ambiguity is a wonderfully confusing thing!

[madmikepags]

Oh and my 24 Castle Hydra controllers that don't have the stickers on them are illegal too, because they are not labeled?????
HOLY CRAP!!! LOL

[madmikepags]

Hey John thats great the way it's written you can run 2 8s 6000mah packs 12000mah!!!! Again like I said no one really thought it out, now they have to come up w another rule proposal next year to correct that!!!!! LMFAO!!!
OH MY NERVES STOOOOPID!!!

[Doby]

Hey John thats great the way it's written you can run 2 8s 6000mah packs 12000mah!!!! Again like I said no one really thought it out, now they have to come up w another rule proposal next year to correct that!!!!! LMFAO!!!
OH MY NERVES STOOOOPID!!!

Exactly..could put 24,000 mah in there and it would still be good to go.

[madmikepags]

Oh and another one!!! I have to find another battery manufacturer and lose my sponsorship because my batteries are all 70C. This thing keeps getting worso and worse. So to juist convert ONE of my scale boats to be legal I need a new motor, speedo and batts $700 bucks bare minimum!!! wow thats rteally saving me $$$
STOOPID STOOPID STOOPID
Wondering if you guys proposing this fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.
Bunch of selfish pricks!!!
I bet you guys saw videos of mine and doug twaits boats run and got scared!!! or maybe ur just so stupid you couldn't get a 10s boat to run fast without flipping it. Or Maybe ur so dumb that you dont understand that higher voltage+Higher efficiency. OR maybe ur just a bunch of ignorant dumbasses!!!!

[madmikepags]

you know what? next year I'm gonna buy a million dollars of giant power batteries, propose a rule that they are the only legal battery and I will give them away to every club that votes for my proposal. Who wouldn't vote for that!!! Oh BTW Giant power Batteries are all 70C so ur scale class will be illegal to run!!!! Just ask anyone who knows me I have the money and I will do it!!!!

[jaike5]

Lmao, that’s the mike I know..... on point!!

[Brewbud]

Hard to believe this passed. Seemed like trying to fix something that ain't broke. It was an easy no vote for me once I learned it would eliminate so many of the 1/8th boat setups on the water.

[raptor347]

Lots of votes from people with no dog in the hunt. It is what it is.

[T.S.Davis]

Mike, easy fix on the batteries. Go down to your local sign store. Have a label printed that says what ever C you want. There's no provision in the rule set to verify a cell is actually correct. They are relying on the label.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Mike, easy fix on the batteries. Go down to your local sign store. Have a label printed that says what ever C you want. There's no provision in the rule set to verify a cell is actually correct. They are relying on the label.
Its sad that its come to this. I dont race that class, but it seems it worked well and didnt need changing.

[Darin Jordan]

Its sad that its come to this. I dont race that class, but it seems it worked well and didnt need changing.

But Steve, don't you know? New or Different is ALWAYS better!! :olleyes:

This change was completely unnecessary and will reduce participation, not increase it. But, whatever.

[Steven Vaccaro]

But Steve, don't you know? New or Different is ALWAYS better!! :olleyes:

This change was completely unnecessary and will reduce participation, not increase it. But, whatever.

I know all to well about change. After 59 years of the high school football game being on thanksgiving day, they polled a few people in town and changed it to the night before. YUK

[Doug Smock]

This appears to be just the beginning guys. Mr. Miller is looking to land on some additional limits for you. Everyone drove right past the IW link and the post Ken copied??

[T.S.Davis]

I saw it Doug. We got off on the scale tangent.

Lohring will likely get his way too. Peterson was right all along. A pocket of racers can dictate the rule set for everyone. These scale rules are a prime example.

NAMBA just doesn't have a check point like IMPBA does. IMPBA has a group of elected officials that look at a proposal and try to determine it's overall impact before it goes out to the membership. Keeps lunatics like myself in check. Call em like I see em. :blink::blink:

[eric113]

you know what? next year I'm gonna buy a million dollars of giant power batteries, propose a rule that they are the only legal battery and I will give them away to every club that votes for my proposal. Who wouldn't vote for that!!! Oh BTW Giant power Batteries are all 70C so ur scale class will be illegal to run!!!! Just ask anyone who knows me I have the money and I will do it!!!!

https://www.mojoracingproducts.com/products/4s-14-8v-4-cell-6000-mah-45c-hi-performance-mojo-racing-battery-by-giant-power?variant=16351844739

[madmikepags]

The New Cells are all 70c that is the old label.

[madmikepags]

And you don't think that if I spend a million dollars I can't get a 70, 80 240c label put on there??????

[eric113]

The New Cells are all 70c that is the old label.

You have proof that?

[Ken Haines]

More International Waters Stuff....you really must view this link
http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=74695&page=2

================================================== =====
[quote name="Bill Brandt" post="725701" timestamp="1526408876"]
They do it with other sports.
Ive tried to explain my reasoning. If you dont like the result. Feel free to vote for change
I wish you all well. Im done on this thread.
================================================== =====

Wow....Bill you help make illegal and now obsolete a couple thousand of my FE Equipment and much more from many others and now the heat gets turned up a bit and you bail on conversation about it. You or the group responsible for the new 1/8th scale rule set barely if ever even travels to a National event. So knowing that this would affect a bunch of national racers must have not been thought about or even bothered anyone. Like I stated previously limiting power to an existing class really should have been done in the spirit of the P-Ltd method....maybe should have been a new class called 1/8th Scale Ltd. and then the effects and this backlash would not be occurring. Certainly some off us will be putting something down on paper and decide what should be done next. But likely it will be talked about plenty and a good solution would be reached before proceeding, just like should have been done before submitting these Scale rule changes.

As far as our NAMBA Safety Chairman (a Dentist by trade), please pull back on your current limit ideas. As you can tell by this thread you have really stirred the hornets nest and since it is not really a safety issue, just your vision of controlling the FE technology growth. I would urge you to reconsider your path. There are a core group of avid "Active" traveling racers that have a lot at stake here. Please let it go.
Thx,
Ken Haines
President / Wave Blasters of Florida (FE Club)

[eric113]

I think they did
-Up to 10s or 12s
-Get rid of the C rating (that always going to be changing with time)
-Get rid of the prop rule
-Come up with motor can size and max kv (motor mfg are coming and going)
Would that make people across the country happy?

[Ken Haines]

I think they did
-Up to 10s or 12s
-Get rid of the C rating (that always going to be changing with time)
-Get rid of the prop rule
-Come up with motor can size and max kv (motor mfg are coming and going)
Would that make people across the country happy?

Not sure some of us want any limits. Really the proposal should have been as stated above in my previous post....
a class called 1/8th Scale Limited ......Vs. Unlimited. Yes I understand Unlimited originally referred to the real Scale Boats,
but just the same, limiting a version of the class that apparently prefers the realism by control of the top speed, while not
affecting the other group with unlimited power that was actually growing recently in popularity. I myself just bought several with a bunch of other equipment.
In all our other FE classes except the P-Ltd we pretty much had this hull size only power restraint. This is why a bunch of us are pretty upset.

[madmikepags]

Yes I have proof, I am a sponsored giant power driver, and all the new cells i have all have the 70c label. Mr Zola who is the Giant power importer can chime in here.

[T.S.Davis]

You have proof that?

I believe Bob drags in some of the old cells for the NW guys. There will come a time where he can't get them though. When the cells aren't available any more I guess they'll stop running the class.

There ya go Mike. Just buy a bunch of labels from who ever printed the old labels. There is no requirement that they actually have to be 65c cells. They just need a label that says 65c. Nobody that actually wrote that rule has any idea how to prove that a cell is actually 65c. Heck, I don't and I've been doing this for eons.

Anything that can't be verified on site through a technical inspection can't be a rule. This is the same way that we blew it when we proposed limited all those years ago. We were ignorant. As is this new rule set. Limited floated for a long time because we were ALL ignorant. Ignorance was bliss.

Ken, we never had the numbers to make it work but if years ago we had gone with a "vintage" class on 8s and a "modern" class on 10s it might have made sense. Hind sight.

I mentioned this somewhere else. The real hydros started off shovel nose, round nose, maybe a chisel on piston power. There were other types before but for most of RC that's what what we think of. Those early boats were only capable of running X mph. The boats evolved and the modern turbine boat runs 1.5X mph.....ish. When we try to emulate these real life boats with scale versions we make the power available to a modern boat equal to the power available to an old style shovel nose. We know the shovel was never designed for the speeds of a turbine. Otherwise they would still be racing them......only with turbines under the hood.

[raptor347]

Sounds like Dinogy and GiantPower need to build some NAMBA 1/8th scale spec batteries.

[eric113]

I believe Bob drags in some of the old cells for the NW guys. There will come a time where he can't get them though. When the cells aren't available any more I guess they'll stop running the class.

There ya go Mike. Just buy a bunch of labels from who ever printed the old labels. There is no requirement that they actually have to be 65c cells. They just need a label that says 65c. Nobody that actually wrote that rule has any idea how to prove that a cell is actually 65c. Heck, I don't and I've been doing this for eons.

Anything that can't be verified on site through a technical inspection can't be a rule. This is the same way that we blew it when we proposed limited all those years ago. We were ignorant. As is this new rule set. Limited floated for a long time because we were ALL ignorant. Ignorance was bliss.

Ken, we never had the numbers to make it work but if years ago we had gone with a "vintage" class on 8s and a "modern" class on 10s it might have made sense. Hind sight.

I mentioned this somewhere else. The real hydros started off shovel nose, round nose, maybe a chisel on piston power. There were other types before but for most of RC that's what what we think of. Those early boats were only capable of running X mph. The boats evolved and the modern turbine boat runs 1.5X mph.....ish. When we try to emulate these real life boats with scale versions we make the power available to a modern boat equal to the power available to an old style shovel nose. We know the shovel was never designed for the speeds of a turbine. Otherwise they would still be racing them......only with turbines under the hood.

The C rating as been concern of mine. I get the C rating technically is joke.

I get the whole shovel nose vs turbine.

[madmikepags]

Hey Terry, from experience the older style "model" boats actually run better than the wing turbine boats. I've had 2 turbine boats that ran like crap, All 4 of my no wing boats all run better tha the turbine wing boats I had

[Doug Smock]

Certainly not bashing NAMBA or the author of the proposal as he followed the rules but... Unless someone proposes a rewrite of section seven in the rulebook, the same group that just turned Scale on it's head could have you running some sort of current limiter etc. by this time next year. (I say "you" because unless I decide to run two NAMBA races the same year I doubt I'll be a NAMBA member again.)

http://namba.com/content/library/rules/namba_rulebook.pdf
A club runs a rule for a year, the district votes on it, it goes to the BOD that checks for grammar and conflicts basically. Then it goes to the membership for a vote? Why wouldn't you want your elected officials to vote on proposals? Including your Chairmen.
Why wouldn't you want your BOD to have a choice or choices on what to do with proposals? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if the NAMBA DDs and FE Chairman had a vote on racing rules, this one wouldn't have seen the light of day.

If interested check out Article 8 for ideas. While it may not be perfect it does give the BOD some teeth to do what it deems right for the organization AND it's membership. https://nebula.wsimg.com/6d8054fd8fca82f7a51da4c1d52d572a?AccessKeyId=ACA73 81D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[T.S.Davis]

Hey Terry, from experience the older style "model" boats actually run better than the wing turbine boats. I've had 2 turbine boats that ran like crap, All 4 of my no wing boats all run better tha the turbine wing boats I had

Exactly Mike. You're actually making my point. The power level is equal so the boat with the least amount of baggage will be the fastest. Those early pickles like your Coors boat ran piston power too. So maybe 1500 practical hp.....or so. A modern turbine is in the 3000 hp range. Throw half the power into a full scale turbine hull and it likely will be slow.......er. Tail feathers, foot peddled front canard wings, all that kind of rot were added to modern boats to handle the power and keep them on the water at the higher speeds. But model boats?.................one power level for all! Are we trying to emulate the real thing or aren't we? Ever seen the Slo-Mo-Shun race against the 2016 Oh Boy Oberto in real life? Proly not.

Doug, when I was one of those elected officials it was shocking to me how hard it was to get the BOD to engage. There were a number of times important issues needed to be addressed and............. nutt'n. Crickets. Some guys were on it. The usual suspects but a number of others just had no input. Russ was the president then. Had to have been absolutely maddening for him. Hopefully it was a just a cycle of disinterested DD's. I'm sure there has been turn over since then but I'm out of that loop.

[longballlumber]

This business of comparing our 1/8 scale model boats to their full sized counterparts is completely ridiculous and shouldn't be part of this conversation at all. Actually, it's borderline comical! I don't follow the full sized boats as closely as I used to, but THEY HAVE LIMITS! They have a fuel flow restriction rule for the turbine powered boats. Do you REALLY think the current U-3 (Allison powered boat) could keep up with an UN-RESTRICTED turbine powered boat?

I will again state that I don't agree with the new NAMBA rule as written, but I understand what they are trying to do. However, it was just poorly implemented.

The class needs to have a reasonable control/range of available power regardless of power source. For the Nitro and Gas folks that is much easier than the FE crowd.

[jaike5]

Thanks for pulling this back down to reality, but poorly implemented , that is a gross under statement with the *!***!***!***!** storm this has created. I mean bypassing the FE director...... really! Smooth though Mike, that's why your Sir Mike, very diplomatic and level headed.
Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

Of course not Mike. Again, exactly my point.

In model boating where "scale" is everything we ignore thE reality that the boats evolved. That's what's commical. Sure the turbines have flow restrictions. That limit takes the modern day turbine to a place the old Slo MO had no hope of getting to. But on race day with RC.....equals. Same power.

[longballlumber]

Of course not Mike. Again, exactly my point.

In model boating where "scale" is everything we ignore thE reality that the boats evolved. That's what's commical. Sure the turbines have flow restrictions. That limit takes the modern day turbine to a place the old Slo MO had no hope of getting to. But on race day with RC.....equals. Same power.

So based on your theory the Nitro guys should be allowed to run .67, .80, .90, or 1.01 motors? AND the 1/6 Scale GAS guys should be able to run what.... 80cc 2 stroke dirt bike motors? Where does it end?

[Darin Jordan]

How are you going to Tech ANY of this?

Rhetorical Question. Having been round and round with P-LTD rules, which still don't have a workable/viable solution, I already know the answer.

What a nightmare...

[madmikepags]

we had a limit, it was 10s. all of my boats I could overpower with a neu 2230 or a 3080 lehner. But its not about the power it's about efficiency and not stressing the equipment. You don't think I could blow up all my components with new rules? I could do it easier, look at my info on my post about 10s setup vs 8s setup. Anyone see my hamms bear run in Ga? it was ok , not crazy fast, I f I went any faster I would have burned stuff up. I could never run that boat on their 8s rules. it weighs 21 lbs and prob only 20 with 8s. There isn't enough power to run on 8s.

[T.S.Davis]

So based on your theory the Nitro guys should be allowed to run .67, .80, .90, or 1.01 motors? AND the 1/6 Scale GAS guys should be able to run what.... 80cc 2 stroke dirt bike motors? Where does it end?

Ugh. Mike, I've accepted that the structure spelled out by the pioneers can't be. NAMBA had open motor rules for 12 years. Did anyone push a scale heat boat into the 100s? The tech was available. Why didn't it happen? The boats can't go there. That's where it did and should have ended. Reality was a pretty good limit for 12 years.

That will never happen in IMPBA. Not ever. I got it. The notion in fact pisses people off.

What I'm trying to convey is that the "limit"....what ever it is........will be/has been applied to every scale boat from every era. So let's say the limit is some how sensible to power a T6 to a scale....ish speed. Enough power to make it look right what ever that means. Now throw the exact same power into the Slo MO that was never ever intended to compete with a T6. Or vice versa. Pick the power to make the SloMo look sensible at speed. Now throw that power into a T6. One of those boats has the wrong power to achieve that all impotant scale......ish speed.

Nitro has the same issue. Same power plant for all. Throw the SloMo, an 8255, and T6 out there together. Not everyone but some guys want super exact scale replicas. Scale scale scale. "Thats the wrong paint code".....but once it goes in water........nobody cares about the "look" anymore. The SloMo never raced a T6.

[longballlumber]

Ugh. Mike, I've accepted that the structure spelled out by the pioneers can't be. NAMBA had open motor rules for 12 years. Did anyone push a scale heat boat into the 100s? The tech was available. Why didn't it happen? The boats can't go there. That's where it did and should have ended. Reality was a pretty good limit for 12 years.

That will never happen in IMPBA. Not ever. I got it. The notion in fact pisses people off.

What I'm trying to convey is that the "limit"....what ever it is........will be/has been applied to every scale boat from every era. So let's say the limit is some how sensible to power a T6 to a scale....ish speed. Enough power to make it look right what ever that means. Now throw the exact same power into the Slo MO that was never ever intended to compete with a T6. Or vice versa. Pick the power to make the SloMo look sensible at speed. Now throw that power into a T6. One of those boats has the wrong power to achieve that all impotant scale......ish speed.

Nitro has the same issue. Same power plant for all. Throw the SloMo, an 8255, and T6 out there together. Not everyone but some guys want super exact scale replicas. Scale scale scale. "Thats the wrong paint code".....but once it goes in water........nobody cares about the "look" anymore. The SloMo never raced a T6.

gotcha Terry.... You win the internet battle.

[Darin Jordan]

Well, I guess this about sums it up. From the I-Waters discussion of the same... I guess if you don't tech, it doesn't matter then...

159379

[dethow]

:popcorn2:

[Doug Smock]

I want to pet that " Magic Unicorn".:laugh:. It's a shame that very few lights are coming on @ IW.��

[Brewbud]

Speaking of IW. Can someone on the site let an admin know that reCAPTCHA system is down and needs updating. This is the system that requires you to answers questions to verify you are a human being and not a machine. Until it is updated no new people can sign up and those who have forgotten their password can not recover it. I sent them an email from outside the system but it was never acted upon. A similar thing happened here at OSE awhile back, but Steve fixed it right away.

[don ferrette]

I truly feel badly for all the NAMBA FE guys that got hosed by that BS rule, my only suggestion would be to as soon as possible submit a new set of rules for 1/8th scale FE. With that being said I have been doing a lot of research in regards to updating the IMPBA 1/8 FE scale rules to increase our motor options and after building and racing a few of them along with conversations with other FE guys I think a simple "can" limit will do well. Easy to tech in the field and a motor will only produce a certain amount of watts based on it's size, limit the can and you limit wattage potential. Here is a post I made in that regard on I/W-

I would probably guess that when the rules were written then those were what was available. I have been on this for a bit and agree limiting motor can diameter and length might be the best option for the IMPBA in opening up motor choices. With FE the math is simple- volts x amps = watts = horsepower and you have 2 choices to get there- more volts and less amps or more amps and less volts. Higher amperage is more heat and heat is the killer of electronics, the 9 & 10S scales I've done run well below max temps that I'd want to see. With the ones I've built or helped build I found we need roughly between 2100-2500 watts to adequately power a heavier FE 1/8 scale reliably in the 55-65mph range. I think by limiting the can size we should be able to keep a decent lid on the wattage potential. Since the Lehner 22 series run 44mm diameter, are numerous and already legal we should probably consider a max diameter of 45mm. As for length a Lehner 2280 with optional fan is 120mm and currently legal so we need to be around that as well. As for Plettenberg I found a series called Dinator and at a 45mm diameter with smooth can looks viable but the Plett HP 370BM/50 A1 S which appears to be the motor Mike referenced is problematic with it's size. How many are actually out there currently in use? If it's just one or two then it might need to become a sacrificial lamb for the sake of growing the overall motor options. All of the current 40mm 15 series Neus will fit in this 120mm x 45mm range as will the Leopard, TP and SSS motors. That right there opens things up to more options and lower cost as well and if anyone knows of other brands that would fit within this range please feel free to chime in.

I honestly feel that a 56mm diameter motor has no business in an 1/8th scale FE because of the wattage potential. After the above post I found a few other motors that would fit into those can guidelines. Again simple and easy to tech "in the field".

[don ferrette]

delete - double post

[raptor347]

I want to pet that " Magic Unicorn".:laugh:. It's a shame that very few lights are coming on @ IW.��

Man, I live near Portland OR. I'm scared of magic unicorns! They're mean out here! :noidea:

[raptor347]

Don,
Don't forget the HET typhoons, there's a 1527 equivalent in that line as well.

[raptor347]

Well, I guess this about sums it up. From the I-Waters discussion of the same... I guess if you don't tech, it doesn't matter then...

159379

Ah, the good old days! Don't ask, don't tell! The ignorance is strong with this one.

Sorry about all the posts guys. I just need to hang out with some people who still like me.

[Doug Smock]

They put you in a bad place Brian. Sorry about that. I hope they give you the tools to attempt to fix it. Didn't know that about the Magic Unicorns...lol

[longballlumber]

I know this is the NAMBA thread, but I think there is enough relevance to share. I started this when the IMPBA discussion was hot and heavy. No magic here, just a collection of information that is formatted in a way to compare easily. I am struggling to find any others that fit in the general size of 45mm diameter and 111(ish)mm length.

[Doby]

Hi Mike:

Is IMPBA looking to expand the motor options?

[Darin Jordan]

Didn't know that about the Magic Unicorns...lol

OMG!! I thought Brian was just joking, but I'll be damned if there isn't actually a FACEBOOK page regarding this! :blink:

159398

https://www.facebook.com/Portland-was-built-on-an-ancient-unicorn-burial-ground-328323299281/

[longballlumber]

Hi Mike:

Is IMPBA looking to expand the motor options?

I guess you could say we are collecting information/data regarding the 1/8 class. There have been others that have suggested there needs to be some more cost effective alternatives. Given the current situation with NAMBA I thought this was some helpful info. Feel free to move, delete, or use as necessary.

[Doug Smock]

OMG!! I thought Brian was just joking, but I'll be damned if there isn't actually a FACEBOOK page regarding this! :blink:

159398

https://www.facebook.com/Portland-was-built-on-an-ancient-unicorn-burial-ground-328323299281/
Who knew? Well except Brian.. lol. Good work Mike! Thank you sir!

[don ferrette]

I know this is the NAMBA thread, but I think there is enough relevance to share. I started this when the IMPBA discussion was hot and heavy. No magic here, just a collection of information that is formatted in a way to compare easily. I am struggling to find any others that fit in the general size of 45mm diameter and 111(ish)mm length.

The SSS line has motors fitting the suggested 120mm x 45mm range limits also. Even with just these we've more than doubled the choices with lower cost options as well. And Mike is right, we might want to move this part of discussion over the IMPBA page.

[jevmax]

delete - double post

Let me propose that NAMBA should not change the existing FE 1/8 Scale rules, but establish two classes. “Unlimited FE 1/8 Scale” under the rules as they have always been, and “Limited FE 1/8 Scale” under the revised rules. I know that NAMBA doesn’t really need another class, but having these two classes could give everyone what they want.

[raptor347]

Jim,
I've been looking at that as an option, it's not a bad one. It actually makes some sense, it would give the boats built under the new rule two places to play. I've got lots going on offline with this. I'm doing what I can. There's certainly precedent for it.

Hey Newland! Do you want your job back?

[madmikepags]

And what class do we run at the nats?????

[Doug Smock]

Great idea under the circumstances fellas.

[don ferrette]

NAMBA BOD should rescind the rule since it was presented under false pretense- they admitted to never teching any of it in the "trial period".

[T.S.Davis]

And what class do we run at the nats?????

Which nats Mike? Are you heading down for 2 classes a day for 8 days?

For our nats up here I've been told under no circumstances are we going to run anything outside of the IMPBA rules. Correct motors and registrations are an absolute must. Drive dog position . What ever is in there.

[T.S.Davis]

Double again. Dang it!

NOBODY wants that job Brian.

[T.S.Davis]

NAMBA BOD should rescind the rule since it was presented under false pretense- they admitted to never teching any of it in the "trial period".

There aren't 57 scale FE guys but for a minute let's say there are. How do those extra 300 guys that voted for this feel about it now I wonder.

[dethow]

There aren't 57 scale FE guys but for a minute let's say there are. How do those extra 300 guys that voted for this feel about it now I wonder.

I actually voted "yes" on this before this thread even became alive. A case of don't know anything... but figured I'd trust the BODs and those racing the class whom wrote the proposal knew what was best.

I've had that pushed down my throat lately... :hornets_nest:

[Doug Smock]

:huh:

[Doby]

People shouldn't vote on things that have no effect on the classes they run.

[jaike5]

That's why they by passed Brian.

[dethow]

People shouldn't vote on things that have no effect on the classes they run.

Don't feel that's totally fair. Maybe its on something a person may want to fun in the future.

Myself... no. I'm just trying to be an evolved participant in the process.

Funny how many want more participation and votes cast on important issues, but when things don't go the way they want... this is what we start to hear.

With all that said... I do honestly wish I had waited a little longer to cast my vote. And I do believe this discussion should have been taking place before the rule was sent out for vote...

But what do I know...? I over talk and over analysis everything.
See what happens when you don't have people like me involved to analyze and talk about things?

Okay... that was seriously just a joke. I have to put it out there because it just makes me laugh. But it IS said tongue in cheek.

But, I'm out of this conversation. I know nothing and will just sit back with my popcorn. :popcorn2:

[Doug Smock]

It's VERY easy to see how something like this can happen if you read the NAMBA rule regarding the amendment process. Section 7. Unless the process is changed the chance of something like this happening again is 100%.

[raptor347]

Maybe something good will come out of this mess.

[Doug Smock]

Maybe something good will come out of this mess.
I'm confident that if it doesn't it won't be for the lack of somebody trying:wink:

[don ferrette]

It's VERY easy to see how something like this can happen if you read the NAMBA rule regarding the amendment process. Section 7. Unless the process is changed the chance of something like this happening again is 100%.Annnndddd he's back! Now your favorite blowhard is posting on I/W about FE limits overall. NAMBA is F'd if they don't adopt some rules to give their BOD some teeth to stop stupid stuff like what just happened and what will continue to happen with those clowns running loose..........

[Doby]

Why does anyone care? Who is this Bozo?

[don ferrette]

Why does anyone care? Who is this Bozo?

We care because he and a couple others are totally F'n things up in NAMBA. Why care even if we're IMPBA? Well for openers FE 1/8th scale was one of the classes the boats could easily cross over between orgs (yes there were guys running both), rules were virtually the same. Now they've made anything over 8S illegal as well as created limits for Kv, mah, C ratings and even prop size. Not to mention the guy who penned the rule sells the stuff they are now required to run. Let that sink in for a moment...........

[Doby]

I get the cross organizational thingy...I'd love to see that as well. I guess I should have just asked the second part of the question.

[dethow]

I did some reading on I/W today... The "Electric Rules" thread... Good stuff...

There was some discussion in there about how IMPBA has mechanisms in place for the BODs to pull rule proposals if they think they are not good while NAMBA does not have that mechanism.

Brings up two questions:

1.) How did the NAMBA BODs pull the P-Limited motor proposal a few months back? The one which would have change the current list to the dimensional limits of 37mm x 62mm. I'll assume the answer may be that the individual(s) whom submitted the proposal pulled it, but looking for some clarification.

2.) I now fully get that the IMPBA BODs had/has the authority to pull any P-Limited/Spec motor proposals they don't like. But what mechanism is in place for the IMPBA BODs to take a P-Limited/Spec motor proposal and set rules for a FE Nationals event without a membership vote? Maybe they're being done as demonstration classes??? I'll assume there will be no IMBPA FE National Titles or anything like that since there is no motor rule in the book. Again... looking for some clarification.

[T.S.Davis]

This may well spell the end of NAMBA FE east of California. The ease with which the scale rules were floated in is an indication of what could follow. The whole limits for all idea would be easy to pass too. It would stop any cross over racing between orgs.

[Doby]

"You should have included a rule that required the bearings be lubricated with the souls of dead spiders."...I almost pissed myself when I read this!!!!

[raptor347]

Dave, The P-ltd motor proposal was pulled by the club/district that put it forward after the 1415 compacts came into existence. That wasn't the direction I think any of us wanted the class to go.

1. Why would you build an FE 1/8 for your first FE boat? That's not the best starting place.
2. The club that proposed the change doesn't travel and their boats were legal under the old rule. Why change the national rule set?

[Doug Smock]

This souls of dead spiders thing. I hope that's all species. And have you tried to find any? I'm afraid to do a Google search.:laugh:

[dethow]

Dave, The P-ltd motor proposal was pulled by the club/district that put it forward after the 1415 compacts came into existence. That wasn't the direction I think any of us wanted the class to go.

1. Why would you build an FE 1/8 for your first FE boat? That's not the best starting place.
2. The club that proposed the change doesn't travel and their boats were legal under the old rule. Why change the national rule set?

1. I think there are a number of gas/nitro guys that have experience building these scale boats and want to get into FE but are intimidated by the knowledge necessary to put the right electronics in the boat.
2. I agree with you there. That whole thing doesn't make much sense. But I guess that will need some time to play out. Will this new rule set cause these guys to start traveling? Will this new rule cause more some cross over from gas/nitro? and thus the gas/nitro guys whom already travel may start to build more boats to fit these rules.

Thank you Brian for answering my question # 1 in regard to the NAMBA proposal that was pulled.
Now let's see if anyone from IMPBA steps up to answer question # 2 from post 139.

[Doug Smock]

Moderator hat on.:wink:
Moved IMPBA posts here. https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?58788-More-limited-motor-discussion/page11

Any more IMPBA related posts on this thread will be deleted.
Please post in the appropriate forum fellas.

Thanks in advance,:tiphat:

[rayzerdesigns]

Ah, the good old days! Don't ask, don't tell! The ignorance is strong with this one.

Sorry about all the posts guys. I just need to hang out with some people who still like me.

Sorta like a couple that were way over charging at nats in Washington..

[rayzerdesigns]

Jim,
I've been looking at that as an option, it's not a bad one. It actually makes some sense, it would give the boats built under the new rule two places to play. I've got lots going on offline with this. I'm doing what I can. There's certainly precedent for it.

Hey Newland! Do you want your job back?
Lmfao he’s racing sailboats

[leonard feeback]

I voted no.