Differences between high end ESC's and cheap ones for Lehner motors?

[dmitry100]

Hey guys,

I keep reading about how high-end controllers like MGM and Schulze are "optimized" to work with Lehner motors (I'm assuming this is software wise) compared to the castle controllers and the cheap chinese ones.

Can anyone elaborate a little more about this?

Thinking about pulling the trigger on a set of MGM 28026-3's... Just wondering if it's over rated or if I should just stick to my supped up china controllers.

[RaceMechaniX]

Schulze and Lehner go way back and likely work well together due to their geographic location both being in Germany.
MGM decided to pair their controllers with the highest quality motors available in Europe. Hence it was also a good alliance.
MGM controllers and Schulze's do not always work well with all motors, more specifically the 1D and 0.5Y.

The reason Lehner's are one of the "easiest" motors to drive from a controller perspective is the stator wind design and rotor design. They produce a very clean sinusoidal voltage pattern which allows it easier to pick up rotor position and apply current to yield torque.

LMT's are 2-pole motors compared to most Neu, TP and Leopards are 4-pole or higher. A 4-pole motor runs twice as fast compared to a 2-pole motor from the controller perspective even though they both are running at the same RPM. Higher apparent speeds usually tax the processor higher and sometimes require higher switching frequencies. Most of the heat in a controller is a result of the switching losses in the FET's, hence higher pole count motors with higher frequencies will lead to higher heat in the controller.

Don't just assume a MGM will be the golden ticket. They work great with some motors. They also have a lot of safety protection built in which makes them less likely to fail, but also means they pull back power where others will push on.

The best all around controller is a converted Castle ICE controller. If you add enough water cooling to these they can drive any motor with relative ease.

[dmitry100]

How many amps are you able to pull with a Castle ICE (with enough water cooling) ?

I've spoke with the MGM guys at one point and they mentioned that they would be able to upload a custom firmware that would turn off all limits.

Is this the specific one you are talking about?

157354

[StevenBryant]

Tyler are the Edge 200 esc any good or is it only the ICE unit that are worth converting?


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[RaceMechaniX]

With good cooling mods and by that I mean directly attaching copper or brass to the bus bars at least on one side you can expect 250A continuous and 350A peaks. If you apply four cooling tubes to both sides of the bus bars you can expect better performance and longevity.

@Dmitry100, yes it is that ESC with the heat sinks removed and brass tubes soldered on. MGM will likely not sell you a "unlocked" ESC. I know they say they are willing to do that, but only for a select few racers who have established a good relationship with them. The reason for this is simple, if you remove the safety limits and burn up the ESC and boat they don't want people publishing bad press online and to the community. I can't fault them there.

@ Steven, yes they are great ESC's when converted to direct cooling and conformal coated.

-Tyler

[Jamey]

Hey Tyler, maybe this is a really dumb question but would you think the castle edge 160 HV actually does have less amp carrying ability than the 200 8s version? Just thinking they may have derated to keep the total watts lower. I have never seen the two side by side to compare. I am really considering the 160HV for an 8s boat just for the future flexibility and I like that it is less expensive and non-bec.

[StevenBryant]

Thanks Tyler, I am building an 8s rigger for abit of fun not racing with a Lehner 2280/5 in a 41” tub, do you think the castle edge converted will handle the motor or will I need 300+ amps.
Cheers


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[RaceMechaniX]

Jamey, the 160HV's are not nearly as capable as the 200's. In the 160's they use a higher voltage switch with less current rating hence the lower overall rating of 160A. It would seem straight forward that the HV performance should scale at some reasonable factor relative to the LV's, but testing and a lot of users would suggest that design is not as robust. Maybe they have improved it with the Edge series, but I can't say from personal experience. I am still running the ICE series.

If you buy the ICE 200 with heat sinks, they will run 8S. I would go that route first and convert it to water cooling unless you have aspirations of running higher voltages.

Steven,
I know the the 2280/5 very well and it will pull a lot of amps if not careful. It's one motor I still only run with Schulze's and I have to add water cooling plates in addition to the cooling on the board. At best I would say it's marginal with the Castle although I run mine in a mono on 2P, where as a hydro with less weight and appropriate prop will not be as bad. I would opt for adding all four cooling tubes, top and bottom of each bus bar like this one.
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[StevenBryant]

Tyler instead of the castle, which schulze controller would you use, 40.160? Do you have any pictures of the added cooling plates? What about the MGM esc’s is there one you would recommend to use? Cheers


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[RaceMechaniX]

I use the 32.200, 32.202, 40.160 and 40.161. All have been upgraded with additional capacitors.
I do not have any pics of the cooling plates. These are something I machined a while ago. I do have a drawing if you wanted to machine some for yourself.

If you are running a Lehner, then yes I would recommend the 28026 for Q and the 25035 for S. These work better than the larger footprint versions like the 25063 and 40063.


Click here:

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[StevenBryant]

Thanks Tyler great info as always just one last question, would the TMM 25035-3 be capable of running a 2280/5 Lehner? I’ve been offered a pair of schulze 40.160wk but at a €1000 Euro for both, I’m considering them however the MGM unit is a 3rd of the price.


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[StevenBryant]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/62435e16a5e65df96a5efef23bcc7b0a.jpg. This is one of the controllers


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[RaceMechaniX]

Steven,
I do not think a 25035 is going to run a 2280. It can run a 2250 and maybe a 2260, but not a 2280. The MGM's have very honest current limits and the 2280 will go above 300A easily.

The controller you have shown is going to result in failures. Because the newer Schulze's have a built in anti-spark on the battery leads and you have additional caps on the leads, this will cause the caps on the caps on the board to fight the caps externally. You really want all the caps on the board for the newer ESC's from Schulze. On the older ones with no anti-spark, it is OK to add them to the battery leads.

I failed a several newer 40.160WK's trying to use an external cap bank till Matthias and I worked out that it was the high in rush current coming from the external cap bank that blew the leads off the internal caps.

These are how I upgrade my newer controllers today. Stock one on the left, modified on the right.

157366157367157368

[StevenBryant]

Wow that’s a lot of caps, I’m glad I asked you before buying these controllers, are the newer controllers worth spending money on and then modifying by adding extra caps to the board or should I look for a different controller? If a different controller which one would you recommend?


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[RaceMechaniX]

That is a little expensive for the newer controllers, but it's supply vs demand. If you did buy them, I would remove the external caps and add the same quantity directly on the board like I have shown.
Controllers for a 2280 are very limited because you need a true 300A+ continuous rated controller. A 40063 MGM would be the next option, but its price is close to the two Schulze's.

[StevenBryant]

Ok I will have to haggle with the seller and see what price I can get them for, what price would be sensible for these units?


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[RaceMechaniX]

In general, yes I like the newer and older Schulze's quite a bit. Look at the two on the left, these is the extreme case of extra caps. This was specifically for the 2280 and 30 series Lehners.

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[StevenBryant]

That’s a nice collection 161’s, unfortunately the shulzes I was going to buy have been sold to someone else now. So my options are the MGM 400, what about the new Swordfish 300 X or the Atos 300, do you think these controllers are good enough quality to drive a 2280? I’m considering the MGM esc but the size is a concern.


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[dmitry100]

How come you don't see anyone adding fets to Schulzes or any other ? Besides gunner that is. I would have thought it to be a straight forward process...

[RaceMechaniX]

I have no experience with the newer X series from SF. And based on what I have seen from the Atos 300, it will not live up to its nameplate rating.
The best option for the 2280 is the 40063, but be prepared to prop down as it will likely start to current limit at some point.

Adding FET's is not like adding Caps. Gunnar, Arne and Joerg made special boards and used a Schulze control board.

A few spares in my box
157377
but nothing compared to this hoarder.

157378

[kfxguy]

How many amps are you able to pull with a Castle ICE (with enough water cooling) ?

I've spoke with the MGM guys at one point and they mentioned that they would be able to upload a custom firmware that would turn off all limits.

Is this the specific one you are talking about?

157354



I’ve run the mamba xl2 converted to water cooling. It’s the exact same board as the ice 250 but different firmware. It’s extremely durable except for moisture. I now epoxy coat all of mine. I like the “elegance” of the mgm because they are very nice controllers but I did blow one up paired with a 2260 in a mono. I don’t recommend doing that, Keith Bradley even told me that the lehners didn’t seem to like a v hull. I’m sure others may say differently but that’s been mine and his experience. He mentioned something about Joel thinking the same thing too, I didn’t hear that from Joel personally. I do have a mgm and a neu 1521 in my newest mono and I’m not so sure I really want to run it. I thought about trading the mgm for a newer sf300. Just my .02

[StevenBryant]

I have no experience with the newer X series from SF. And based on what I have seen from the Atos 300, it will not live up to its nameplate rating.
The best option for the 2280 is the 40063, but be prepared to prop down as it will likely start to current limit at some point.

Adding FET's is not like adding Caps. Gunnar, Arne and Joerg made special boards and used a Schulze control board.

A few spares in my box
157377
but nothing compared to this hoarder.

157378

Wow that’s some collection of controllers, what size is the MGM 400? It looks huge and will definitely not fit in my rigger lol


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[dmitry100]

kfxguy, you are planning to run the 2260 on 6s? Maybe go up in voltage ... 8s or 10s, etc.

[srislash]

Wow that’s some collection of controllers, what size is the MGM 400? It looks huge and will definitely not fit in my rigger lol


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Mmm, well then there goes my suggestion of a Flier 400. There are a couple versions of it tho, one WP and the other not so much but then smaller.

You know, I always learn something from Tyler’s posts. This time an improvement on Castle conversions.

[dmitry100]

srislash, you put your HPR on the water yet? hows is it ?

[srislash]

srislash, you put your HPR on the water yet? hows is it ?

Not yet but she should be complete in a few days Dmitry. Build thread is on here.

[dmitry100]

Tyler, Any differences going with ICE 200 over the Edge 200 ?

Figured a newer revision would be updated with more modern switches and all that. Or did they stick current limitations on the Edge ...

[RaceMechaniX]

I have not looked at the Edge in any detail so I could not say. I believe the biggest change was on the control board and in software. I don't believe the power stage changed at all.

-Tyler

[dmitry100]

Tyler, how much extra caps would you recommend on the ICE 200 ? Around 5k would be fine?

BTW - where can I buy some super high strand 10 and 14g copper wire? I remember OSE used to have some limited stock of the German wire before which was really good stuff, now I'm trying to find more of something similar. I believe it was like 500 or 1000 strand. Is the stuff from Castle just as good?

[dmitry100]

I think i found some good ones... TQ wire. Though a little silly no one ever has it in red.

[RaceMechaniX]

Depending on what the ESC will be used for and how tight the packaging is I will use something between 3500-6000uF. I replace all the four stock capacitors with 25V, 35V or 50V Rubycon ZL, ZLH or ZLK caps. If space allows I will add two more for a total of 6 caps.

I prefer to use wire from GS Racing, Deans or the German supplier who's name I am forgetting.

Progressive RC also has some good silicone wire.

[srislash]

German supplier: Gundert?

[dmitry100]

nah it was something else. they're exclusively like some industrial Wire shop out of germany with a site that looks older than gundert

ZL rubycon caps are like trying to find a unicorn... so I went with similar rated united chemicon caps. hopefully they'll last

[dmitry100]

The store's name is Nessel

Their new store... which I could imagine is better than before:
http://nessel-elektronik.net/

Old store:
http://www.nessel-elektronik.de/Silikonlitze/silikonlitze.htm

But i think they only ship in bulk, or charge high shipping... as usual. Tried ordering some time ago.

[RaceMechaniX]

Nessel was the company I was missing the name. I have asked friends in Germany in the past to buy the wire for me and I pick it up when I am in Europe.

The Rubycon caps are available from the major electronics supply houses like Allied and Mouser. OSE has some of them in stock.

[dmitry100]

Doubt anything from Nessel is anything like this stuff tho:

https://tqwire.com/product-category/rc-products/11-gauge/

TQ11 is constructed from 2,303 strands of bare copper in a super thin silicone jacket. The wire is only 4.2mm OD – providing a larger conductor in a compact space. Thinner than your “average” 12 gauge wire, it has more copper, allowing for increased current flow and lower voltage loss.
New TQ 10 Gauge wire (version 2) is constructed from 1,050 strands of tinned copper to be very flexible, easy to solder and only 4.8mm in diameter. Available in Black, Red, Blue, Yellow & Orange and in several convenient wiring kits.

[dmitry100]

I now get a little nervous whenever I go on newark.com and at checkout they say this: "Exact shipping fees are unknown until the order has been processed."

Because last time I ordered caps from them - they charged me $30+ bucks for shipping even though their estimate tools show $5-10 bucks max

Great way to fleece customers. Unless they only caiter to businesses and it's expected? :confused2:

Digikey on other hand was super cheap for a much bigger order

[NativePaul]

I don't get it, what is the advantage to tin plated wires? Tin has near 7 times the resistance of copper, so surely it must increase the wire's resistance over normal copper wire.

[CraigP]

Tinning keeps the wire from oxidizing. Oxidized copper is worse than tin. The best wire is silver plated copper, but not cheap!

[NativePaul]

Thanks Craig, that explains why the wire exists. I still wonder if it is of any advantage to me though, my boats spend at most an hour a month on the water and even then are unlikely to get wet, the only times I have seen green wires are when boats have been stuck in the bottom for extended periods of time, and then generally what the wire is attached to is only fit for the bin anyway.

[dmitry100]

I guess its a good idea to put enough foam so that it doesn't end up stuck on the bottom of the lake :)

[CraigP]

Paul, you can seal the wires with PVC heatshring tubing and silicone. It’s not just the water environment that can cause the copper to corrode. As the wire heats, then cools, air is drawn in and out. The air carries water and over time, copper will corrode. This is the problem with car wiring. It’s normally just copper wire, no plating. After some years, lights aren’t bright and electrical systems don’t act right. Now that takes years, but we are running 100-200A thru the wire, so the process is accelerated. I seal all my wiring as mentioned above. An extra step to make sure the amps flow freely!

[dmitry100]

Have any of you ever replaced the stock conductor wires on the Castle ice before ?

Thinking to make double conductor wires but the wires are so close to the fets I feel like any extra heat might damage them

[NativePaul]

I think most people run flotation, but if you hit the lake bottom sometime the lake monster will grab you, and if it doesn't want to let go no amount of flotation will help, sometimes it will pop up a week, month or year later, sometimes it is gone for good.

Maybe it is a cultural thing, most of us in the UK pull about 45A average and the only times I have felt warm wires is when I have used a LiPo to jump-start my, or a neighbour's car.

I have soldered the wires on an Ice 200, I took off the stock 8g wires to replace them with 10g which was more suited to my purposes for that ESC.

The battery wires were just about doable, but the motor wires are the only thing my trusty Weller80 has failed to solder (within reasonable time, it could probably have done it eventually, but would have had to put an unacceptable amount of heat into the board, risking damage), the combination of the 8g wire and thick copper tracks in the PCB surrounding the wires wickd the heat out of the tip really fast, I had to cut the wires down to stubs to desolder them in what I considered to be a safe time.

If you want to add another 8g wire you will need either an old style iron with a huge thermal mass, or a whole ship ton of power.

[RaceMechaniX]

I have replaced the wires on mine and have to use the 200W cheisel tip iron. You have to be careful to not leave the iron on for too long or it will hurt the other SMD components. If you use a low watt iron it will suck the heat to the other end of the board and by the time you heat the joint up enough to remove you have probably reflowed the closest FETs.

[dmitry100]

aren't the bus tracks the wires are soldered to made from brass?

anyway, i guess it'd be pointless to try to solder the 2 conductor wires to 1-2 inches of the original 8 gauge if i was to cut them off instead of soldering them off completely... since solder doesn't pass current well? was thinking to maybe connect the strand into each other rand then wrap thin copper wire around it

[dmitry100]

157704157705

jeez Look what I found on my LMT 1950 :/ green oxidization on at least 1 of them and the rest look like they're just about to get just as bad

They were all heatshrinked - is this because of flux residue? it hasn't touched water

[CraigP]

Need to put silicone sealant under the heat shrink... heating and cooling cycles pulls water in from the air.

[dmitry100]

But would the flux residue contribute or make it worse though? I think I forgot to clean it after soldering

btw, What kind of silicone sealant would be best to use for something like this.... something like this? https://www.amazon.com/Clear-Electronic-Grade-Silicone-Squeeze/dp/B0063U2RT8

[TRUCKPULL]

157704157705

jeez Look what I found on my LMT 1950 :/ green oxidization on at least 1 of them and the rest look like they're just about to get just as bad

They were all heatshrinked - is this because of flux residue? it hasn't touched water

This would never happen with tined wire.

Larry

[jim82]

Try some marine heat shrink

[dmitry100]

Tyler, any idea where I can get props similar to abc's? it appears even propshop has closed down

Or can octura props be modified to 19* or 23* rake?

[StevenBryant]

Tyler, any idea where I can get props similar to abc's? it appears even propshop has closed down

Or can octura props be modified to 19* or 23* rake?

Prop shop are still in business but under a different name Protean Design, you can find them on Facebook.


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[dmitry100]

Tyler, is it worth replacing the 2x 1200uf caps near the power leads from my Castle edge 200 with 3 smaller ZL caps? Was thinking to keep it and just use an additional 5-6k ZL cap bank

They also have 2x 560uf caps on the opposite end. It's best to have all of them match the cap bank? kind of figured the front ones wouldn't matter that much

[RaceMechaniX]

I think the stock caps are 680uF on the battery wire side and 560uF on the center of the board.
I believe it is worth replacing at minimum all four caps with the appropriate Rubycon ZL caps even if it's just the same rating. For the 8S ICE and EDGE ESC's I would recommend bumping the cap voltage up to 50V if you plan on running them on 8S. If you only plan on 6S and below use the 35V rated caps.

If you are pushing the current limits, I add two additional caps for a total of 6.

You can mix and match brands, but it's best to use all the same voltage.

[ray schrauwen]

Thanks Tyler.

[dmitry100]

It seems they changed the newest Edge 200 8s to 2 caps of 1200uf 35v on battery side. Probably better off with 2 of the 470uf ZL in their place. Thought 3 could fit but seems not.
I could put 2 more on top of them but I figured having long cap leads would defeat the purpose.

For pushing current limits ... is it a good idea to add an additional 5k cap bank on top of the 4 already on board? or are these Castle controllers designed well enough that they don't need that much

[RaceMechaniX]

Castles need good caps, not necessarily a ton of them as long as they are on the board. Using external cap banks reduces the effectiveness considerably compared to the equal amount on board.

[dmitry100]

Btw, I read somewhere about spark resistors can cause problems with castle esc's... Potentially even damage them in some way. Something about it messing with the auto lipo detection. But that seems like something from a long time ago.

I have a bunch of 11k ohm resistors on hand. Think they can still cause issues with the ice/edge 200 8s?

[CraigP]

Btw, I read somewhere about spark resistors can cause problems with castle esc's... Potentially even damage them in some way. Something about it messing with the auto lipo detection. But that seems like something from a long time ago.

I have a bunch of 11k ohm resistors on hand. Think they can still cause issues with the ice/edge 200 8s?

That is way too high! That can definitely cause voltage detection issues, on any ESC. Should be 10-20 Ohm range, 1/2W. Put heat shrink on the resistor. Keep a finger on it when pre-charging. If it gets hots, you got a short or other problem. Should be a very small spark, showing caps are still lively...

[TRUCKPULL]

I use 10 - Ohm. 2-Watt for a 6S anti-spark

Larry

[dmitry100]

ah ok, darn it. didn't think high ohm count mattered to the esc. I couldn't seem to find any in the 1-20 ohm range on ebay at all.

well, good thing i checked first before trying it :-X

[dmitry100]

Is the BEC in the castle worth using at all for the receiver? I was thinking to just use a LiFe instead, as I would imagine it would cause it to create more heat like all other ESC's.

[TRUCKPULL]

I have found that the radio board that has the BEC in it, runs about 20 degrees cooler when the BEC is disconnected.
I use these instead of a battery pack in all my boats to power the receiver.
https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ker-HWUBEC

Larry

[RaceMechaniX]

If you are using a relatively small servo that is not needing to work hard you can stick with the onboard BEC. However, I do recommend using an external receiver pack for anything with a 150oz+ servo. The BEC does have to work hard and this is a common failure seen on the control boards.

[dmitry100]

Tyler, is it possible to have flex cable that is a bit way too flexible?

This black cable (got it from keith - but it appears to be Octura cable like from OSE) rattles way too much even when I apply a bit of load on the shaft.
The other gold cable runs fine, even when running on the other side...
I haven't put it on the water yet... didn't want this flex blowing up.

Perhaps the cable is too long for the amount of support I have in there?

The teflon tube I'm using has an ID of 5.5mm, decided to use it instead of the other thicker 5mm ID teflon I have... figured it'd run better with teflon that isn't too tight.

Should I use a different cable or will it be fine with some real load?

158737 158738 158739 158740

[RaceMechaniX]

I have some flex cables that also whip on the bench without load, but work fine in boats when load is applied. I am surprised you have that much whip with such short shafts. Looks like you have enough support and no big gap between the stuffing tube and collet. You are correct that the Teflon liner does need some clearance, but there is such a thing as too much clearance.

If I had the option of running one cable that whips on the bench versus one that does not, I would go with the latter. I would normally say try both cables, but it looks like you built this boat for SAW runs and if running high RPM cable whip will destroy the drive line and potentially the motors.

-Tyler

[dmitry100]

ID of 5.5mm for teflon with 3/16 flex is usually OK for SAW though right

[dmitry100]

Do LMT motors not like a decent 5mm+ gap between the drives and drive dog?

There was something I read about how it is a big no no with LMT in particular... Is that true? Or did I misread that

Something about it ruining the bearings or motor shafts

[kfxguy]

Do LMT motors not like a decent 5mm+ gap between the drives and drive dog?

There was something I read about how it is a big no no with LMT in particular... Is that true? Or did I misread that

Something about it ruining the bearings or motor shafts

I’ve never read that but it makes sense because every Lehner motor I’ve used it put in a customers boat with a single has had the shaft slip in it. I guess they need a thrust bearing? I dunno? I don’t spend that kind of money on failing equipment anymore.

[StevenBryant]

I’ve never read that but it makes sense because every Lehner motor I’ve used it put in a customers boat with a single has had the shaft slip in it. I guess they need a thrust bearing? I dunno? I don’t spend that kind of money on failing equipment anymore.

I run thrust bearings on all my Lehner motors to stop the shaft slippage, not that I have ever suffered from it.


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[srislash]

Ok, how is one to keep a thrust bearing alive at 45,000 rpm? any I have run over 30k have been smokin’ after a run. Can’t keep oil or grease on them.

[TRUCKPULL]

I use Air Tool Oil on mine.

Larry

[srislash]

I use Air Tool Oil on mine.

Larry
This holds up Larry? I’m just about to mainden AWB and could install some thrust bearings I guess. Anybody know where to get 8mm ID ones?

[dmitry100]

Any thrust bearing I've seen so far has a maximum RPM rating of 20k

It would be a strange thing to need seeing how expensive these LMT motors are... Never thought it to be such a common issue.

I'll post in a German forum about this and see what they are doing about this... so far I have never seen thrust bearings on any boats running LMT so far

[kfxguy]

Well I’ll insert my opinion. Maybe the Lehner motors aren’t really a sport motor. I think they are really made for all out speed. Maybe not, but in any application I’ve used them in with regular running they just haven’t lasted. And these motors I refer to weren’t just in my hands, one guy isn’t a speed junkie and he just ran his boat for fun. The shaft moved in it. Personally I don’t like thrust bearings or washers in my boats because that’s another part to fail or wear out. When I build something and put my name on it, I prefer to have no problems so I try to do what I know works. So far I’ve had the absolute best luck with cheap tp motors and neu motors. Neu used to have shorting problems in the leads coming out the motor but they fixed that by putting beer insulating sleeves where the leads exit the end bell. I feel like I can accomplish any goal I have with either of those motors and not have to spend $400 on a motor. Same thing goes for escs. While the mgm look purty and they drive quite nice, I don’t require them in any of my builds unless my customer requests it. My go to escs for now are the sf300 and sf220 until something else better comes along. I really like the new X series. Hopefully castle comes through with something soon.


Whoops I went a little off subject. Sorry. My answer to the original question is I’ve used castle, seaking 180 and swordfish and mgm on Lehner motors. They all worked fine.

[srislash]

Well Travis, I will agree on the LMT and sport application to an extent. They seem to be fine in normal ‘sport’ situations (30k’ish) but in hot setups they are just too compact and dense to dissipate the heat internally so it just builds till failure. Seen it thru you a couple times and on Steve’s big mono.

[kfxguy]

Well Travis, I will agree on the LMT and sport application to an extent. They seem to be fine in normal ‘sport’ situations (30k’ish) but in hot setups they are just too compact and dense to dissipate the heat internally so it just builds till failure. Seen it thru you a couple times and on Steve’s big mono.

Yea that may be the case. One of them that failed I took it apart and inspected it. The glue on the windings melted off. Another one I had the shaft came out of it. I think I still have it. I could probably use some sleeve retainer on it but I don’t really care to use it on anything. It’s a cool looking paperweight tho. Lol.

I but they last a lot longer in a twin because the stress will be less on them, both the heat and the pushing forces on the shaft will be less.

[TRUCKPULL]

This holds up Larry? I’m just about to mainden AWB and could install some thrust bearings I guess. Anybody know where to get 8mm ID ones?

I have never had a thrust bearing fail, I have never had a shaft shift in a motor, I run a thrust bearing in every boat I own or have built.
I have seen a shaft shift in a brand new NEU motor first run- NO thrust bearing.

The bearings in any motor are NOT designed for the amount of lateral thrust that we put on them in boats, that is why you should run a thrust bearing between the coupler and the motor in all boats.
Air tool oil, - I use a small needle syringe to oil my bearings, I do this almost every run.

8mm thrust bearings at OSE
https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=boc-f8-16g

Larry

[jim82]

How do you go about getting a thrust bearing to work on the TP shaft that is turned down?

[srislash]

I have never had a thrust bearing fail, I have never had a shaft shift in a motor, I run a thrust bearing in every boat I own or have built.
I have seen a shaft shift in a brand new NEU motor first run- NO thrust bearing.

The bearings in any motor are NOT designed for the amount of lateral thrust that we put on them in boats, that is why you should run a thrust bearing between the coupler and the motor in all boats.
Air tool oil, - I use a small needle syringe to oil my bearings, I do this almost every run.

8mm thrust bearings at OSE
https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=boc-f8-16g

Larry
Thanks Larry

[TRUCKPULL]

JIMMY
If you are asking about the 8mm motor shaft that is turned down to 5mm

I use the same motor TP4050, My motor mount is 1/8" thick aluminum, at this thickness only the 5mm shaft sticks out.
The hole in it for the motor shaft is 21/64" ( just enough side clearance so the 8mm stub that sticks out of the motor does NOT rub.

Now your 5mm thrust bearing mounts between the coupler and the face of the motor mount.

Larry

[jim82]

Gotcha. My situation is different with the motor mounted it will slide through the mount. I'm going to have to figure something out or just keep using without one. All my other boats have one

[TRUCKPULL]

Jimmy

In that case, I have seen people use a 1/16" to 1/8" thick aluminum plate, 1/2" by about 1 1/4" long
With a center hole just to clear the shaft, and two 3MM holes to line up with the motor mount holes.
It then mounts on the front of the motor mount attached with the motor mount screws, (adjust screw length to suit).
The thrust bearing then goes between that plate and the coupler.

Larry

[jim82]

Sounds like a plan thanks man

[dmitry100]

Will a thrust bearing hold up at 60k rpm loaded though?

I wonder if a thick teflon washer would hold up if used instead of a thrust bearing or just minimize the space between drive dog and drive to 2-3mm given that theres already a teflon washer there as well. A 6 inch flex cable shouldn't tighten up all too much to cause any extra heat at the drive dog right ?

[TRUCKPULL]

The Thrust bearings that we are talking about go between the motor and the coupler.
https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=dh-53136

They are rated about the same RPM as any motor bearing. But they are designed for THRUST where the motor bearings are not.

NEVER ever use them between the Strut and the drive dog.

You can put a Teflon washer between the strut and the drive dog if you want to,
But you still have to leave the proper space between these two, to compensate for shrinkage in the cable.
The rule of thumb for cables is. the Dia. of the cable for every 10" to 12" of length.
So if you have a 11" long 0.187" or 3/16" Dia. cable --- you leave a 3/16" space.

For high power or High RPM unite -- I would leave a little more space then I stated above.
The torque that these units put out is way higher then for Sport Or Racing Boats.


Larry

[dmitry100]

If my 3/16 flex cable is only about 6 inches ... would 3-4mm technically be sufficient space between drive dog and strut ?

It is high rpm about 60k loaded ... but I'm running twins with 42mm props and LMT 1950/5's

[TRUCKPULL]

"It is high rpm about 60k loaded"

My speck on Dia. size for every foot of length, is for racing about 30k loaded.

You are running twice the load, That does not mean twice the gap per foot.
It is probably a multiple of that. Meaning more then twice.

Larry

[dmitry100]

But how much more can a 6 inch cable possibly tighten though past 5-6mm ?

[srislash]

But how much more can a 6 inch cable possibly tighten though past 5-6mm ?

One could play with it. You would see the wear on that washer on the drive dog if it sees some pressure. I run 4-5mm gap on the Fantasm and also run 7” of cable. Mine has been good.
Of course there is always wire drive. No shrinkage there I believe

[TRUCKPULL]

You could also paint the rear of your strut with a black permanent marker and see if there is a rubbing from the drive dog.

Larry

[TRUCKPULL]

Gotcha. My situation is different with the motor mounted it will slide through the mount. I'm going to have to figure something out or just keep using without one. All my other boats have one

Jimmy
How large is your hole for the shaft in the mount?
If large enough or if you can make it large enough to clear a 8mm thrust bearing.

The 8mm thrust bearing would center itself on the shaft, and then the 5mm collet would be tight up against it.
https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=boc-f8-16g

Larry

[RaceMechaniX]

Do LMT motors not like a decent 5mm+ gap between the drives and drive dog?

There was something I read about how it is a big no no with LMT in particular... Is that true? Or did I misread that

Something about it ruining the bearings or motor shafts

You can run thrust forces on an LMT just like any other motor. There are a couple good reasons to reduce it or run a square drive.
1. LMT's using smaller bearings compared to Neu's and TP's and smaller bearings cannot handle high thrust forces.
2. LMT's use a very fine pitch thread to secure the output side end cap to the can. Particularly if the motor is not supported on the rear you run the risk of pressing hard enough to break the threads. It's actually a combo of the motor being cantilivered and the thrust forces that generally cause the threads to fail. Lesson here is to support the rear of the motor.
3. If you do run a thrust bearing with a LMT, you need to have the bearing push against the end plate not against the ball bearing. The flanged ball bearing is facing the wrong way for the thrust force so it will just push the bearing towards the wire end.

I do recommend using a rear motor support for all LMT motors, that should go for almost all larger motor beyond a spec size motor.
No big concern letting the motor take up the thrust forces, but know you will have to change your bearings more often.
I would stay away from the thrust bearing that directly transfers the forces the front ball bearing. Either make a plate that can take the forces or leave out the thrust bearing.

The gap at the drive dog is dependant on what cable you are running and how long it is. 3/16-1/4" gap works for most boats.

[dmitry100]

Tyler, shaft shifting ... is that a concern at all when not using thrust bearings on LMT's? like in kfxguy's case -- his LMT motor shaft shifted.

thrust bearings just sound like something that will blow up at high rpm -- everyone is recommending the ones on OSE but what RPM are they rated at? All the ones I've seen so far on google are 20k maximum.

[RaceMechaniX]

The 5mm Tamiya ones work fine up to 40k. Travis’ shaft slipping is due to the rotor getting really hot which breaks the bond between the shaft and magnets. This is pretty rare.

[dmitry100]

Tyler, if 1 castle edge ESC had 4 caps total in the front of the near the phase conductors and the another ESC only had 2 in the front. Could that possibly cause some throttle sync issues -- like causing one motor going faster than the other. Even after going through all of the throttle calibration this is the only thing different between the controllers. Can't think of anything else that may be causing this. Switched sides of the ESC's and its definitely the controllers, not an issue with the motors.

I guess I'll solder on the other 2 caps and see if it makes a differences. Figured since the 2 extra caps are near the phases and all... maybe it can make it behave differently?

[RaceMechaniX]

The caps should not make a difference like you suggested. I would check the software level, timing and start power. It's not uncommon for the ESC's to vary a little bit even with identical software. It's a known issue with guys running twin Castles. Usually in the water, it's not too noticeable once the boat gets going.

-Tyler

[dmitry100]

But they should not vary to the point of flipping over the boat due to the torque roll right?

Thats the kind of difference I am seeing... kind of frustrating. Why on earth would they be so different from each other.

When I pulled data logs from the run on water after the cat flipped - I noticed that the "Throttle In" had a max of 2.1ms for one and around 1.7ms for the other. The Max "Power Out" was 80% and 100% for the other. With around 20 amps in difference between the 2 (since I was testing it on 3s only).

[RaceMechaniX]

Then you are not calibrated correctly. Are you using fixed end points or auto adjustable ones?
I assume you are using a Y splitter for the lead connection and not trying to use a servo mixing function on an additional channel.
Try calibrating both ESC's simultaneously using a one battery to power up both ESC's.

[CraigP]

Some of the ESC’s have a programmable throttle response. Could that be the difference?

[TRUCKPULL]

Dmitry

Are you running a ?S2P setup?
With the two Red battery wires ( and the two Black wires) on the ESC"s connected together, giving you the 2P connection?

I had a diagram on here somewhere showing this wiring connection,
In my diagram it has a Plug in between the two ESC's in the Black wire.
I have found that with Castle 240 Hydra ESC's you have to program them individually.
This is why there is a plug in the Black wire between the two ESC's

Larry

[dmitry100]

I'm running both ESC's with their own battery packs connected separately.

Larry, what is the purpose of having a plug that connects the 2 black power wires of both ESC's?

Tyler, Both of the controllers are connected with a Y connector for the throttle port of the receiver. With both red wires from BEC pulled out. I have tried calibrating them with both Auto Calibration and Fixed EndPoints and still experience the same issue.
I'll try calibrating them both up with just 1 pack and see how it goes...

I think perhaps I'm not doing something right during calibration, maybe because of the pistix. Followed the instructions for setting up the Fixed Endpoints but maybe it's not taking effect.

Is there any particular way of doing fixed endpoint calibration with a pistol? from what I understand I have to power up both ESC's with both FWD/BRK Endpoints on my Futaba 4PLS transmitter set at 40% and the trigger in full throttle and then I would increase the FWD Endpoint until I hear a beep (at 84%) and release the trigger in neutral. From there on, increasing the BRK endpoint would not make any beep even at the full 120% -- pulling the trigger after this... the ESC would arm itself.

Castle sure could of made throttle calibration a bit little less complicated. Even my swordfish's worked without any issues like this.

[TRUCKPULL]

I'm running both ESC's with their own battery packs connected separately.

Larry, what is the purpose of having a plug that connects the 2 black power wires of both ESC's?

You say you have each battery running to it's own motor.
So you are NOT running your batteries in a 2P configuration.

I run my twin setup in a 6S2P configuration.
The batteries are 6S-5000mah, In a 6S2P configuration, each ESC sees the same 10,000mah battery power.

When racing when turning right the outside motor gets more load, therefore running down the outside battery more then the inside battery.

Toward the end of the race the boat will want to turn Left, seeing that the inside battery has more power left in it then the outside battery does.

The plug in between on the black wire is so you can disconnect the two ESC's from each other when programing.

Larry

[dmitry100]

Larry, So your point is that these Castle ESC are that much more sensitive to lipo voltage differences than others?

I'm just trying to sync up both controllers so that both motors more or less spin equally. Because as of right ... on the bench ... one motor would be spinning at 5-10k RPM and the other would would be barely moving or at a complete stop.

[TRUCKPULL]

Larry, So your point is that these Castle ESC are that much more sensitive to lipo voltage differences than others?

I'm just trying to sync up both controllers so that both motors more or less spin equally. Because as of right ... on the bench ... one motor would be spinning at 5-10k RPM and the other would would be barely moving or at a complete stop.

Dmitry

Not that Castle are more sensitive, I think that any two ESC's without being connected in parallel would give you the result in my scenario above (post #104).
I think that your problem is that the two ESC's are not setup or programed the same.

Are you using a Castel Link to program your ESC's?

Larry

[dmitry100]

Yea, I'm using the Castle link.

I tried connecting both controllers to 1 battery like Tyler suggested and it actually improved throttle sync when I changed the throttle type to Auto Calibration .

Calibration of throttle type "fixed endpoints" is what I'm having the issue with. No matter what I do I can't get it to save the endpoints.

I think I'll just ditch this futaba 4pls and get a stick transmitter or even a spektrum pistol one which I hear works without a pistix.. since all of my ESC's are all converted airplane ESC's anyway

[RaceMechaniX]

Try this, program each ESC with the Castle Link and set the throttle type to fixed end points. Make sure the timing, start power, current limiting, etc is all the same with both.
Remove your Pistix and directly connect the ESC Y adapter to your radio still with both red wires removed.
On you radio go to the "TH MODE" on MENU 2 and adjust the setting to 7:3. This changes the throttle neutral setting so you have 70% forward and 30% rearward. page 80 of the manual.
Set your main throttle sub trim to B100 and your main trim to B40. This moves the resting trigger point to essentially the same position as stick radio with the throttle down.
Connect the ESC's and test. You may need to adjust the main trim to a lower value like B45 or B50.
Using a 2S battery give full throttle and then check your data. If you still not see 100% power in the Castle data something else is wrong.

I use Futaba pistol radio's only and have many ICE200 controllers in boats with no pistix. Hopefully this works for you.

-Tyler

[dmitry100]

Thanks man, I'll try that. Appreciate it.

[dmitry100]

Tyler, that worked great, now without having to use the pistix.

FINALLY made the calibrations sync up on both ESC's and now both motors seem to respond to throttle the same. Though I did notice what you mentioned regarding each ESC being kind of different. Each motor would trade spinning on slight 5% throttle taps.

I had to max out the EndPoint settings in the Transmitter (to 120%) and increase the Trim to 50 -- only then did the ESC save the calibration when I fired up both ESC's with the trigger pulled in full throttle -- the ESC's would beep almost continuously with 3 beep bursts and then I would pull trigger in full reverse and then it would beep in the same manner until I released the trigger to neutral. Then I would pull the power on them.

In the Castle Link Settings I also set the Motor Startup setting value to 0 ... Maybe that helped. Maybe each controller had its own way going about it -- since each motor is wired differently for rotation.

[RaceMechaniX]

With the the fixed end points, you should not need to go through the Full throttle, Full brake, Nuetral routine. This is only for ground based controllers like the ICE Hydra's and car ESC's.
The plane ESC's just need the EPA and trim worked out and then everytime you fire it up it should be the same.

Now for the strong caution. Be sure the set the failsafe with the new settings. Use the offset Neutral or full brake as the FS setting. Do this before you run.

[dmitry100]

My Fail Safe at the moment (as they are by default) are set as Throttle: Mode: OFF, Position: (FREE)

Do you mean I should set it as Throttle: Mode: F/S, Position: 0, B-FS: OFF ?

[RaceMechaniX]

You should turn your fail safe on, the position should be something like B80. The simple way is to just hold the set buttons at the neutral trigger position. This neutral is something like B80-B100 with modified trim setting when using the aircraft controllers. I am not sure how to set the F/S on the 4PLS, but check the instructions.

The battery fail safe is also a good idea to turn on. Set it to 3.5V or whatever the standard setting in the radio is.

[dmitry100]

Fail Safes set with Throttle: Mode: OFF, Position: (FREE) seems to work -- even if i turn off the transmitter or RX

I'm assuming you're talking about the Trigger Calibration setting on the radio... that sets neutral, brake, full

[RaceMechaniX]

When the failsafe is set correctly it is safer than just the receiver not having a stored FS.

[dmitry100]

Is the max value of 1.965ms for "Throttle In" from the data log an accurate number when hitting Full Throttle?

[CraigP]

2ms is standard time, so yes, it’s right in there...

[dmitry100]

It appears that the throttle issues were worked out and seem to be working like normal and hitting full throttle as it should... The HPR99 cat runs fine once it manages to get on plane. Just that the throttle "variations" like you described Tyler are there and are incredibly annoying as it sometimes makes the cat unsteady before it gains up the speed and it only happens randomly... sometimes before a pass and sometimes not. Maybe I'll try tweaking the motor startup settings to a much higher setting and see if it makes any difference. It's really random... in terms of which sides wants to go faster before it speeds up for another pass :/ lol. so strange.

Better than a complete roll over compared to before though i guess. Maybe I'll shoot an email to Castle and see if they have any remedies for this issue... Surely even a cheapo hobbywing esc can get it right.

[srislash]

Dmitry are you referring to the damn waggle at lowish speeds on the HPR? I am having this issue with the 115 to the degree of popping one prop out of the water. I am assuming it is a dihedral hull thing and it seems to be fine if I just ‘nail it’. I’m just running Swordy Lite’s so No logs to read to help. I’m just getting mine going so I guess I am just somewhat behind you.

[dmitry100]

Yea that’s the one. Well then, I’m glad it might not be a symptom of the castle edge/ice throttles differences. Could it be that there is too much lift being created on the rear near props? I think I’ll play around with the drive angles and CoG a bit. Perhaps there’s not enough prop in water...

I’ve also noticed that when setting the hull on an even table surface —some of the steps don’t exactly match the opposite side in height. Primarily the 2nd step before the last on one side which causes the last step (before drives) on one opposite side to have like 4-5mm of air while other one is perfectly touches the surface. I doubt that helps given how sensitive these hulls are after all. I’ll need to sand it down and see if it helps at all...

Btw, have you tried playing around with the angle of rudder blade? What angle is yours set at currently

If I remember correctly, Don’t all of the SF300 lite versions have data logging capability?

[TRUCKPULL]

I’ve also noticed that when setting the hull on an even table surface —some of the steps don’t exactly match the opposite side in height. Primarily the 2nd step before the last on one side which causes the last step (before drives) on one opposite side to have like 4-5mm of air while other one is perfectly touches the surface. I doubt that helps given how sensitive these hulls are after all. I’ll need to sand it down and see if it helps at all...

Sounds like you need to blueprint the bottom of that hull, to be out 4-5mm is way to much.

Larry

[RaceMechaniX]

The scale cats are notorious for the low speed transition wobble. Most people point and squeeze to get up on plane quickly. These seems to work better than slowly motoring up.

[srislash]

The scale cats are notorious for the low speed transition wobble. Most people point and squeeze to get up on plane quickly. These seems to work better than slowly motoring up.
That’s what I figured Tyler. I just need to get to another lake instead of the close test lake with all the waterski markers in it. Lol

[srislash]

Yea that’s the one. Well then, I’m glad it might not be a symptom of the castle edge/ice throttles differences. Could it be that there is too much lift being created on the rear near props? I think I’ll play around with the drive angles and CoG a bit. Perhaps there’s not enough prop in water...

I’ve also noticed that when setting the hull on an even table surface —some of the steps don’t exactly match the opposite side in height. Primarily the 2nd step before the last on one side which causes the last step (before drives) on one opposite side to have like 4-5mm of air while other one is perfectly touches the surface. I doubt that helps given how sensitive these hulls are after all. I’ll need to sand it down and see if it helps at all...

Btw, have you tried playing around with the angle of rudder blade? What angle is yours set at currently

If I remember correctly, Don’t all of the SF300 lite versions have data logging capability?

I got these from Keith with no logging. The only thing I’ve played with so far was CG. Moved it back some and spun it out and flipped it. Hoping next weekend to get it out again. Way too much on the plate this weekend.

[srislash]

In my case anyway I doubt if it is a prop lift issue. I’m only starting off with 447’s. My Daytona hull does this too. And curious about the ride surfaces, my pal up here had a 99 and never could get it going good. I’ll try to check mine at some point over the weekend.

[dmitry100]

It's strange that i have never really seen that wobble in any of the SAW videos of small or big cats ... but perhaps they all are starting off fast to begin with.

i think that the fact the HPR99 is soo thin in terms of width and tall compared to every other cat of it's length -- the wobble is probably that much more obvious in this particular hull

[srislash]

It's strange that i have never really seen that wobble in any of the SAW videos of small or big cats ... but perhaps they all are starting off fast to begin with.

i think that the fact the HPR99 is soo thin in terms of width and tall compared to every other cat of it's length -- the wobble is probably that much more obvious in this particular hull
I tend to agree with you Dmitry, that same friend aforementioned also has a MHZ 185 that does it somewhat too. Just the hull, they are good once at speed just takes some driving skills. Here is a pic of the last step and the rudder for you

159270

[dmitry100]

Is it an Aluminum or stainless steel rudder?

Looks good either way. I’m using the previous version of the rudders that Werner would make... they bend so darn easy. I could probably fold one up with one hand lol. Not sure if it’s intentional or not but at $15 per blade it will get expensive lol. So I want to find someone who makes a sturdier steel version of the blade

[srislash]

It is aluminum rudder Dmitry. It is from Kent (natatorun) Customcfparts.com

He dare me to break/bend it. Haha. Another option would be a custom knife builder. There is a guy near me that I keep saying I’m going to stop at.

[dmitry100]

must be made from a stronger type of aluminum than mine then

any ideas how much is he selling replacement blades for?

[dmitry100]

Tyler, is there such as a thing as too much gear oil (amount) or too thick of a gear oil? I'm using some 75W-140 Full Synth gear oil but I feel it might be a little too thick of a consistency. The stuff sticking on the flex cable once taken out after a run is almost a grease like consistency. Though, the good thing so far is that even without any load this stuff has completely quieted any rattles, noise, or vibration in the drive line...

Figured it might help if there was any water, but drive line is sealed well anyway

[RaceMechaniX]

Yes there is. 75W-140 is too thick. I would try chainsaw bar oil if you prefer oil or use some Klotz 2-cycle engine oil. For most flex cables running in brass stuffing tubes I stick use grease especially for heat racing boats. Apply the grease and work it into the valleys betweens strands. Squeegee off the excess grease. It's important to not over grease the cable. A little grease is all that is needed. If you are running flex cables in Teflon lined stuffing tubes try the chainsaw bar oil or some ATF. Again just apply enough oil to coat the cable and wipe off excess.

[srislash]

must be made from a stronger type of aluminum than mine then

any ideas how much is he selling replacement blades for?
I have no idea on the rudder blades Dmitry, but the complete with hydraulics was $200.

[dmitry100]

Man, these LMT 1950 motors pull some crazy power especially for being so small ...

Ran the hpr99 on 6s yesterday with only a 1715 (42mm) and my external sensor showed a max current of 401 amps and 8,400 Watts before violently crashing...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180514/dde8b7ddc02d237fbd26ee924de60735.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dmitry100]

Tyler, something like this would work? https://www.amazon.com/Klotz-KL-100-Engine-Lubricant-Quart/dp/B001BHI5J4



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RaceMechaniX]

Yes. If you are running Teflon liners and want max speed try ATF. You will have to re-oil every third run though. Klotz will last longer, but has more drag.

[srislash]

Man, these LMT 1950 motors pull some crazy power especially for being so small ...

Ran the hpr99 on 6s yesterday with only a 1715 (42mm) and my external sensor showed a max current of 401 amps and 8,400 Watts before violently crashing...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180514/dde8b7ddc02d237fbd26ee924de60735.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Holy *!***!***!***!** Dmitry, you do need something stronger in the rudder department.

[dmitry100]

Yea tell me about it. These rudders must not be intended for anything heavy duty... they bend like soda cans. I’ll see if Manuel wenny or nata2run has something better of the same size

Gonna try my ABC 1717 cut 42mm props...
Could only imagine how much more amps it will pull. Though this is only burst current which probably doesn’t mean much yet

[dmitry100]

If you’re in need of some logging you should try the Unilog 2 ... it’s very featureful and has lots of support/comparability amongst all transmitters as well (For live telemetry like for spectrum xbus)... It’s reasonably priced compared to others I think. You can even buy any P1000 temp sensors for like a dollar or 2 from eBay to save $ instead of the $10 or 15 each they sell. They have 400 amp current sensor which I’ve seen others use to go over 600a

Don’t you have the eagle tree telemetry tho?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[srislash]

If you’re in need of some logging you should try the Unilog 2 ... it’s very featureful and has lots of support/comparability amongst all transmitters as well (For live telemetry like for spectrum xbus)... It’s reasonably priced compared to others I think. You can even buy any P1000 temp sensors for like a dollar or 2 from eBay to save $ instead of the $10 or 15 each they sell. They have 400 amp current sensor which I’ve seen others use to go over 600a

Don’t you have the eagle tree telemetry tho?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes EagleTree. I’m trying the magnetic ring amp pickup this time. Says it’ll read 300.

[srislash]

Dmitry what Kv are those little suckers?

[dmitry100]

2508kv ... so about 73k unloaded. From what I can tell about 59k loaded before it flew out of the water

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180515/ad71eae5dc07c7f22c02e8370db8f189.jpg

[srislash]

Man that makes a nice readout on that UniLog.

[dmitry100]

Yea plus it’s already compatible with major TX/Rx, so I’m thinking to pull the trigger on a Frsky qx7 or x9d stick transmitter. For the live telemetry from Unilog with 1.5km range and 9ms response time... which is great compared to everything out there at that price range. Plus the Frsky receivers are $20 each. It’d be nice to have some amp and temp readings for a change before/after a SAW pass. Plus I’ll be able to use it for drone racing if need be lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dmitry100]

Tyler, you think this kind of a wedge blade would work for a SAW rudder? Versus the stock one ... I’m replacing it due to the bending issues I have... seems like super weak aluminum.

Its certainly a thinner wedge by a good bit and really sharp(er). But just worried it might affect handling

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180525/3686b2e1142ba02ef26168a9233d16c1.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180525/0093c31a6aa527ccc6bb47aec6cbb789.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180525/fe59a26bbb3e6f3c06411e21e078857c.jpg

[RaceMechaniX]

That will work, but not that great. You want a pure wedge, having the flat section on the back half of the blade does nothing.

Also keep in mind it may be better to have the rudder bend than break your bracket. If you run a steel rudder blade be prepared to start breaking the mount. I would advise against. You are better off findind a source of 7075 rudder blades or ask a machine shop to make you some. I know Brian Neal had to make about 50 blades for his big cats and replaced the blades when they bent or broke. That’s just part of running those cats at high speed.

[dmitry100]

Would a thinner wedge like that technically increase the speed a tad bit? I've read 5mph+ more can be possible... with a similar knife blade.

[Lone-Wolf]

I had the exact same bending issues on my HPR99's rudder, same rudder and bracket as you. I would bend it back and could get away with it a few times, I had alot of trouble finding the stock replacements, if I still had the boat I would find a machinist and order a dozen of them at least! I do think these rudders are intentionally weak because of what Tyler mentioned above, to save the bracket and transom.

BTW Do you by chance have any video of your 99 running yet? I would be really interested in seeing it in motion, I had nothing but troubles with mine I swear it was possessed!

[Fluid]

This thread has been terribly jacked, but here goes. I watched a lot of 130+ passes from several cats at the LA SAWs in 2014, and it was clear they had rudders which were too small. Most would hook out terribly at the start of each pass, spinning around and taking a lot of effort to obtain a straight pass. All had true wedge shaped rudders but they were too short both IMO and in their results. It is only the rudder which supplies resistance to provide directional control on a SAW pass, and had they added an inch to the length they would have gone straighter and thus faster. Reducing drag is important, but so is control.


.

[dmitry100]

The knife blade appears to be made out of a very strong yet flexible metal... with that in mind... I think it would act as a good shock absorber on impact

But handling-wise would handling characteristics be similar to the stock wedge? That is... If I kept it slightly longer or same length.

[srislash]

The knife blade appears to be made out of a very strong yet flexible metal... with that in mind... I think it would act as a good shock absorber on impact

But handling-wise would handling characteristics be similar to the stock wedge? That is... If I kept it slightly longer or same length.
Umm, how flexible Dmitry? You don’t want it vibrating back there. Sorry I can’t help on the rudder design, I have a few designs to test but haven’t found the time at this point.

[RaceMechaniX]

The flexibility helps, but they will snap. The best rudder blades are very stiff. You do not want a wobbling rudder blade for SAW passes. Another point to add to Jay’s is it is preferable to have more chord length than depth of the rudder. Long skinny blades do not work as well as shorter wider blades. By wider blades I mean front to back distance not the trailing edge. As a general rule of thumb the rudder blade should be at minimum as deep as the prop plus a half prop diameter. So make sure the rudder extends below the lowest point of the prop(s). For the SAW cats I would recommend 40-50mm below the prop.

[dmitry100]

Any of you guys know of anyone who makes or can make decent blades?

Tyler, the blades do NEED to be complete wedges right? Even if its 2x in chord length than the stock...

My other (destroyed) Shocker cat never had any issues with rudder bends even after like 10 100mph+ crashes, and it was short in length but wide rudder... so I suppose that is the way to go.

I found some decent wide blades on the H&M site... hopefully its not any thicker than my stock blade.

https://www.hydromarine.de/Ruderanlagen/Hydro-Ruderanlagen-PROFI-Linie/Ruderblatt-Keilruder-Gr-3-130-ohne-WK-einzeln::1657.html

[dmitry100]

Look what I found on the HPr99 hull... This happened exactly in the same place where what there looked to be some sort of “dent” (bubble?) left during hpr’s vacuuming process...

It looks as if a piece sort of “popped” out like a jig saw puzzle piece...

As you can see there’s a smaller but similar bubble in the first picture below...

:( hopefully this doesn’t cause the rest of the hull to crack after fixing ...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180530/cf04cf96036ea15e43c244dad653846f.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180530/730d6094bf07ace84296044d8324d0b1.jpg

[Lone-Wolf]

At least it's not on any of the running surfaces, should be an easy fix but that is unfortunate for such a high end hull.

[dmitry100]

Yea no biggie. Looks fixable... a bit of West systems epoxy + silica then some touch up paint and it should be fine. I think.

I just figured it out: it’s emptiness. All that was covering that area was a layer white paint... so the recent crash must of simply pressed it.

This is air bubble next to it that I pushed in...
But ya, it is disappointing. I’m gonna assume it’s been known to happen.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180530/e6a109b7b7625093372c3bf65a0d302b.jpg

[slyautosports]

Guys I need your help... I am a land U4RC racer which esc's and motors figured with gearing are a snap but, these boat systems are a little confusing.

Currently I have a ProMarine 34" MTR single motor with a Seaking 120a V3 ESC and 3674 2075kv brushless motor.

I run both 4s and 6s and mostly just tear up the lakes with friends. Maybe I'll race later.

I use both ABC 1715 prop (for 4s) and ABC 1716 prop for 6s.

I use 2 Revolectrix 70c 3s 5800mah batts to get 6s.

I want it fast with a decent runtime.

Since I'm mostly bashing the boat I am not needing a high dollar system.

Currently I'm considering a Swordfish X 220a ESC. And upgrading to a 40mm motor between 1600kv/1700kv.

My questions;
1) Do I need caps installed? If so which type and how many?

2) Which motor would be best? Go 40mm or stay with 36mm? Which Kv?

Any guidance would be great... as I am confused as to which setup and required specs I need.

Thank you in advance

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[dmitry100]

You should probably go with any of the Castle ICE/Phoenix 200 esc's converted to water... You can get them for under 200. Probably cheaper if used. If you want to get the most of it and be bulletproof. Alot of people have success with the cheaper Mamba XLX also.

Can't go wrong with 4000-5000uf total caps of Rubycon ZL class 470uf caps or any of the high ripple versions of UnitedChemicon caps.

For racing I would imagine you need maximum efficiency for longest battery life if you plan to race. So probably go with 36mm and around 1700-2000kv. Theres alot of other people here who have more experience with heat racing... so i'll assume they give you input.

[slyautosports]

You should probably go with any of the Castle ICE/Phoenix 200 esc's converted to water... You can get them for under 200. Probably cheaper if used. If you want to get the most of it and be bulletproof. Alot of people have success with the cheaper Mamba XLX also.

Can't go wrong with 4000-5000uf total caps of Rubycon ZL class 470uf caps or any of the high ripple versions of UnitedChemicon caps.

For racing I would imagine you need maximum efficiency for longest battery life if you plan to race. So probably go with 36mm and around 1700-2000kv. Theres alot of other people here who have more experience with heat racing... so i'll assume they give you input.Thank you for the info. I have searched and haven't found any water-cooled Castle ICE/Phoenix esc...

I would like to stick with turn-key off the shelf ESC's but trying to decide which one...

So far I've looked at Swordfish X 220a but is there something better that isn't hundreds of dollars...

ZTW or Etti?

I have read a lot of negative posts on Seaking 180a V3's.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[NativePaul]

You can get pre-modified water cooled Castle ESCs from Gromov at ecomaster.torgg.com.

[dmitry100]

YEa, i wouldn't trust the seaking 180 v3 too much... even I managed to blow one up without much effort.

ZTW 200a looks good. I hear they are pretty good quality. Etti is much pricier ... seems priced along lines of Castle.

[ray schrauwen]

You should probably go with any of the Castle ICE/Phoenix 200 esc's converted to water... You can get them for under 200. Probably cheaper if used. If you want to get the most of it and be bulletproof. Alot of people have success with the cheaper Mamba XLX also.

Can't go wrong with 4000-5000uf total caps of Rubycon ZL class 470uf caps or any of the high ripple versions of UnitedChemicon caps.

For racing I would imagine you need maximum efficiency for longest battery life if you plan to race. So probably go with 36mm and around 1700-2000kv. Theres alot of other people here who have more experience with heat racing... so i'll assume they give you input.

Can you give a screen shot of the right product? I mean I look for high ripple or low ESR and I really don't know what I'm looking at depending on which seller is listing specs.

[donhuff]

Dmitry,

That's just a bubble on the inside where the cloth did not stay "stuck" to the gelcoat. It's real easy to get those when working the resin into the cloth. One has to be very careful when brushing/dabbing the resin into the cloth on one end of the boat, so that you don't pull the cloth on the other end of the part, and make those type bubbles. Especially with a carbon cloth like you have, as it does not drape as well as glass cloth does, and does not conform to the mold as well.

I vacuum bag my hulls to help reduce this, and to suck out the excess resin. You would think that the vacuum would pull the cloth into full contact with the mold, and it does for the most part. But I still have to make up a "putty" of resin, milled glass, and silica, and smear a radius into all corners of the hull. Chine, strakes, transom edges, all get a good filling before the layup starts.

Since you had those two bubbles, I'll bet that you probably have more. Take a steel rod or something hard and smooth like a butter knife handle, and go over all corners of the hull. Press hard while sliding it along the edges. If there is a bubble under the gelcoat, this usually will make it break through. Better to find it now than on the water.


If you'll send me one of your bent rudders, and the dimensions of what you want. I can get a piece of 7075 and make you one. But it will be a full wedge, and to make it strong enough, you need it to be 3/16 to 1/4 inch wide at the rear. Just don't be in a hurry for it cause I work slow!

I would not waste time with the knife blade, we tried one on my son's gas mono in Huntsville when going for a record. It was a little smaller than the speedmaster blade we took off, thinner and flat sided like what you have. The boat was UNCONTROLLABLE period. We took it off and put the big speedmaster back on, and on his next attempt, he set the current LSG36 Mono 1/3rd oval record. Control is mandatory, without control, speed means nothing.

[srislash]

Control is mandatory, without control, speed means nothing.

BMW? Lol sorry Don, just had to

[donhuff]

BMW? Lol sorry Don, just had to

BMW the automotive company?

If i'm re-quoting someone else, I didn't mean to. that's just the way I see it.

[dmitry100]

Ok so yesterday I ran a saw pass with my HPR99... after what I thought was a successful full pass... the second I let go of throttle — the boat went airborne ... made a skip on the water and then with about 5 feet of air time it made an upside down belly flop (hatch first) on the grass.

There was no evident damage except a small hairline crack on the hatch. But what was weird was that it looked like my strut and flex became separated and busted out the bearing in the process. It was running normal until throttle release... could it have happened afterwards? My rudder was bend to the point that it got a big dent from prop.

Its a real pain not knowing how fast it went because my GPS seems to be getting signal blocked by the cf hatch even though i always thought HPR made them with gps in mind.

So now I’m thinking whether to buy a small gps antenna that I can mount outside (by driving a tiny hole to pass wire thru) and attach to my gps inside. Because I know I’ll be fishing for the gps in water every time I make a pass with crash. Have any of you did anything like this?

[TRUCKPULL]

At speed - when you back off of the throttle - the prop is now turning the flex shaft the wrong way .

Larry

[dmitry100]

so a more gradual release of throttle is always a good idea then

[srislash]

so a more gradual release of throttle is always a good idea then

Yup

[eXoNerated]

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169738&d=1592638574
No one may be here but if you are. Look at this new 40KW controller that does 400 continuous and 600 max at 20s lipo . Look at the footprint. It has balls as it can also be used for EV. It will run high pole count NEU or Lehner motor quite well and efficiently. The processing speed of the other drives cannot remotely compare nor are they as power dense. They are $1200.00 a piece though and the before mentioned are huge in comparison. You should add some ceramics to compliment such large bulk electrolytic because they have real difficult time dealing with the faster transient esp with such long barrels to fill if you plan to go that route. High end drive$ that wont drive all the motors doesn't seem right does it? Another problem with these drives can be motors with very short coils because they have increasingly lower induction and the way to get out of this problem u have 3 options. One is lowering the bus voltage , 2 is adding load, or 3 raising the PWM. So a boater picks which on a boat with the prop he already wants? Raising the pwm of course .The MGM cannot match this drive as it has 3 times the pwm capability. MGM is also not user friendly. If you make mistake in setup and and burn it many people had to pay for repair.

I have 2 castle 200 Ice hv v2s and they have been flawless for me but still the cant turn high poles counts beyond the limit of the processors. The reason they do better with all motors is they run a 6 step BLDC algorithm not a sinus one which takes more processor speed. It isnt just the poles that create the switching issues the type of commutation algorithm the use plays a huge part in it. Some designers got around this by using a fast acting logic array in addition freeing the processor to do more work in commutation. A sinus drive works best with a sinus motor and a bldc drive works best with a BLDC motor.Sinus setups are cleaner a by a few % more efficient at the low end but at the high end theres not much difference. Some of the most sophisticated drives right now are actually the 30 dollar BLheli 32 inverters you can buy anywhere. If you team its logic with a custom bridge you'd really have something. Low pass and notch filtering will pay you dividends. More poles make more torque so its a matter of choice not quality between the two motors. Lehner may have a slight advantage in rotor design with sliced rotors and CF sleeves but the NEU is still a very good motor with a winding factor of one. They also have released a TL4 rotor at the request of 5FD pilots that can turn more rpm. All the wire except the end turn go toward making torque.The Lehner eliminate many of it problems simply by being a 2 pole. At that its working harmonic is the fundamental 2 pole. In a NEU the working harmonic is the 4th. That changes things as far as the rotor loss is concerned.

https://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=860687&d=1590520160


I'm in cooperation with Phds at ABB's corporate research center in Raleigh NC at NC State.
Were working on the newest winds that will lower the BEMF THD on a high pole count external rotor FSCW machines.

You can observe here that running a BLDC Inverter with Sinus motor or Sinus inverter with BLDC motor only creates more ripple.
This is another way matching can give better performance.
https://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/6/7/2/0/5/7/a11340629-105-motor%20drive%20combinations.png