CF Rigger Build

[Meniscus]

OK, I'm finally getting around to my rigger build.

I picked up these sponsons:

8740

I have some Carbon Fiber sitting around and am considering using it for this build. I'm also considering creating CF rails much like the Graupner that Diego recently acquired.

Scenario: Rigger will be just shy of 20" in the 50s range, maybe up to 60. I think I have the power system worked out for this, but still crunching the numbers.

First a few questions for the rigger guys: At these speeds, how important is tub design? Should I opt for a sweeping wedge type or something more aggressive? More specifically, I am assuming that at these speeds, aero will be more important. With this in mind, where on the tub should the crest or maximum height be (after which there will be lift created)? Please note that this is an ultralight build and a kevlar type material may be used to skin foam for the tub. Last question is, how much angle should be under the nose? I know that it will not come in contact with the water at all when at speed, so how much lift should be created there which in turn would lift the sponsons out of the water, if any?

So here is my dilemma regarding attaching the sponsons: I have the concern that I may not get the angle just right for the wet ride sections and I may have to adjust. Other than the Xzess adjustable and the Graupner rigger, what other adjustable designs has everyone else seen?

My thought is, if I run a tube through the nose and then run the front boom through it, then that portion could easily move and the back part of the sponson would be supported (and adjustable) using the CF straight edges (rails) to the back of the rigger (much like the Graupner rigger).

Anyone care to weigh in? Meanwhile, I'll get some better pictures of the sponsons and see what I can do about drawings (digital camera is MIA at the moment, LOL).

[Fluid]

My record setting 4-cell (NiMH) riggers ran in the mid 50s and were 19-22" long. Believe me the longer ones worked better at these speeds. With modern BL/LiPo power you do not need a lifting tub, and streamlining is not critically important at 50-60 mph. You are operating in ground effect and normal "airplane" aerodynamics don't always apply. Using a "wing" tub shape is useful only to fit in larger components without building a bulging cabin. Don't even worry about where the "hump" should be, this isn't what causes useful lift.

What power are you intending to use? If 2S and 540-sized motors are planned then 20" is too short by far....24"-27" would be a better target. If you are using a small-format 380 motor then the smaller hull size is more important. The question then becomes - can you achieve 60 mph with the 380 motor?

What are your goals for the build? What run times are you expecting? Where will you run this small boat? Have you run a 60 mph model before? These questions should be answered before you go much further in the build or you may end up disappointed. :spy:


.

[Meniscus]

I know that I will be pushing it to achieve those speeds. I'm not denying that.

Goals for the build: Low 50s, mainly sport setup, not SAW setup but only limited turning, runtimes 3-4 minutes if that.

Why isn't the 20" going to work? The sponsons will likely stick out and add an additional few inches. Hardware will add another 1.5" or so. So I'm thinking the overall length may be around 23" or so, but not sure yet.

Setup will be on 3s lipo, so far as the motor etc., I don't have it in front of me to share that info.

[Meniscus]

ESC will be the SeaKing 60a.

Any other thoughts on adjustable sponson mounts?

[Meniscus]

no one?

[longballlumber]

Adjustable in what direction and how? Most riggers I have seen keep the rear boom adjustable to change the AOA using shim stock under the boom tube mounts.

[Meniscus]

Adjustable in what direction and how? Most riggers I have seen keep the rear boom adjustable to change the AOA using shim stock under the boom tube mounts.

Adjustable angle of the sponsons in reference to the degree on plane. Could you explain the shims under the boom tube mounts? Forgive me, I don't get it.

I know a lot of the gassers have adjustable riggers, but they tend to run wet into the tub and of course, I'd like to be able to adjust the angle without introducing water into the tub.

Thanks for the feedback and questions for clarity.

[Meniscus]

My record setting 4-cell (NiMH) riggers ran in the mid 50s and were 19-22" long. Believe me the longer ones worked better at these speeds. With modern BL/LiPo power you do not need a lifting tub, and streamlining is not critically important at 50-60 mph. You are operating in ground effect and normal "airplane" aerodynamics don't always apply. Using a "wing" tub shape is useful only to fit in larger components without building a bulging cabin. Don't even worry about where the "hump" should be, this isn't what causes useful lift.

What power are you intending to use? If 2S and 540-sized motors are planned then 20" is too short by far....24"-27" would be a better target. If you are using a small-format 380 motor then the smaller hull size is more important. The question then becomes - can you achieve 60 mph with the 380 motor?

What are your goals for the build? What run times are you expecting? Where will you run this small boat? Have you run a 60 mph model before? These questions should be answered before you go much further in the build or you may end up disappointed. :spy:


.

What motors might you suggest? Of course I don't have the disposable income right now for the really expensive stuff, but would still like to know for future reference.

Thanks.

[Dr. Jet]

What motors might you suggest? Of course I don't have the disposable income right now for the really expensive stuff, but would still like to know for future reference.

Thanks.

If you are looking at "380-sized" motors, I have had good success with the Neu 1107/1.5Y/H. 3400 Kv, fan-cooled. I can direct you to a source for these motors at $80 (plus S&H). He only has a few left at that price. He may also have a 1107/2Y/H which may be a better option on 3S.

[Meniscus]

I am considering the Ammo 28-35-5100 if I still go with the 3s 11.1 (still crunching numbers)

Otherwise, I may use an Ammo 28-45-2700 at 4s 14.8

However, I may entertain another option, only thing is, I'm not sure I can come up with the money for the Neu motor to make this happen, especially since I've got some other projects that need attention too.

I'm still open to all ideas though! I may have to sell something, but I'll make it happen! ;)

[Meniscus]

One soul for sale (or trade).

LOL, J/K

(Also taking donations) Again, J/K

[Dr. Jet]

I grabbed a few of the little NeuMotors from my source when he was having his "Giant Blow-Out Sale". What have you got to trade (besides your soul - I already have enough of that)?

[Dr. Jet]

Correction (for you number-crunchers): The -2Y NeuMotor has a Kv of 3400 rpm/V. The -1.5Y is 3850 rpm/V.

[Meniscus]

Trade? I'd love to, but I don't have much available and certainly don't want to insult you. I've been giving away some of my stuff available for trade to a newbie to our club, Jeff. He purchased a Miss Vegas, Nitro and we're trying to get him to go full Electric!

So now that you have the disclaimer regarding insult, LOL...



I have an Ammo 28-45-2700 that is used, but in good shape (used to be Diegoboy's). This motor was originally slated for this rigger, but as time goes on, and since I don't have a 4s lipo, I'm thinking about a different motor.
I have one of those NQD PX-16 32" ABS catamarans that has the electronics removed, but in a plastic bag (plus the BS transmitter). One of the brushed motors is bad. Other than that, hull is virgin, minus a sticker or two. I have hopes to do something with that since it was a gift from a family member. I'm not sure where I'm going with that one.
I also have a small Turnigy brushless motor I tried in the Renegade (can't think of specifics right off hand, but it may be 2300kv, or maybe 2500kv?).
Last I have a no name brushless motor that is 4300kv and in good shape (it may have come from hobbycity, not sure). Its gold in color, finned.


Other than that, I don't have much. I'm currently running a BJ26BL (still on NiMH), the resurrected Renegade (destined for the club's next newbie that needs a boat to run).

So, the point is, I appreciate the offer, but don't feel like I have anything worth trading. Especially to someone such as yourself ;) LOL! I figure you have this much stuff sitting in a box in the corner you haven't looked at in 5+ years!

Go ahead, fess up, the truth will serve you better than diverting the subject!

[Meniscus]

Hey what do you mean:
your soul - I already have enough of that

LOL! For the record, my soul is in my boats and no where else. :tongue_smilie:

[Dr. Jet]

My soul is best when played on my "FrankenStrat" and pumped through a '66 Twin Reverb at volume setting 9.5! :rockon2:

[Meniscus]

LOL! I've got an old, old Tobias (pre-Gibson, bass guitar) I run through an Eden Metro (Eden-Electronics), but that's not my soul, that's just taking care of my inner man!

Speaking of music gear, I have an old Behringer Modulizer Pro that I haven't used more than a few hours for trade (not sure if you are interested in that). Its probably 5 years old maybe.

[Dr. Jet]

Speaking of music gear, I have an old Behringer Modulizer Pro that I haven't used more than a few hours for trade (not sure if you are interested in that). Its probably 5 years old maybe.

Probably not, but maybe we should talk via PM so as to not clutter-up your thread with off-topic :blah:

[Meniscus]

My thread, I don't really care. I hope to find my digital camera to get some better pictures of the sponsons to upload tonight.

I take it you are not interested in my other junk (a wise man in deed), LOL! No stress.

[Dr. Jet]

I take it you are not interested in my other junk (a wise man in deed), LOL! No stress.

No, I'm not really that interested. I have lots of similar junk myself. What I'd like to get to add to that junk is: Decent micro hulls; a cheap, dual-humbucker solid body guitar (I have a bunch of single-coil Fenders and Hollow-bodied Gibsons); building tools and/or implements; maybe a Futaba Fasst system (or parts thereto); dialed-in 1/8" shaft props; a girlfriend that doesn't cause me to exceed maximum take-off weight in my motorglider :tape::tape: (I am very glad she doesn't read these forums); old Boss stomp-boxes; old tube amps (I'd like to find something around 5~10 watts); oh yeah, and that all original '59 gold-top LP (I'll consider a cherry sunburst as well).

[Meniscus]

LOL, that's why I got a truck! J/K

I've got an old 1967 Emmons Nashville Custom, but you can't have it :P

I guess you'll have to settle for the old Jackson Vampire looking guitar the kid is selling down the street at the yard sale ;) (BTW, with the custom paint job, he thinks its worth $2k, LMAO)

He's on Walnut St. if you are interested!

[Dr. Jet]

If I put a custom paint-job on the NeuMotor, do you think he'll trade?

:rofl:

[Dr. Jet]

:focus:

Those are some trick-looking CF sponsons. Where did you find them?

[Meniscus]

I haven't seen them anywhere else, that's why I picked them up. I'm hoping we'll see more in the future. For now, lets just say I got them from HongKong...I think!

I may have to cast a mold for myself though, LOL!

I found my camera. Going to take some more pictures tonight...if OSE is still available. I'm not sure if it was just me, but I couldn't get on this morning :(

[Meniscus]

I assure you, despite the way it may look in some of the pictures, they are symmetrical.

So here are some more pictures:

8793
8794
8795
8796
8797

[Meniscus]

Another closeup of CF material.

8798

[Meniscus]

I'm still accepting suggestions for adjustable sponson mounts.

Thanks!

[Jimmy Sterling]

Are those sponsons the ETTI ones, I have seen them on Ebay a few times in the ETTI Ebay store. Search for rigger under toys and hobbies

[Meniscus]

I think they are, but not 100% sure.

[Meniscus]

Anyone have pictures of adjustable sponson mounts???

Greatly appreciated!

[Simon.O.]

This may help.
When I built my rigger I built the tub and sponsons to the approximate dimensions of the predator.
Then I took the tub and loaded it with the running gear, I then set the sponsons on the build table in a position that gave me the desired CoB or CoG and AoA.
From here I then plotted onto the hull and sponsons the mount points or more accurately the drill holes for the cf booms.

I can appreciate that you are keen make it adjustable as much as I am with my next design / build. my feeling is towards the fixed rear boom and adjustable front boom that is through 2 small booms / supports off the front of the main tub.

It is my belief that the design should be very close to optimum and the limit of adjustment then only needs to be minimal.

For me, I would go with an external front boom adjustment as it is easier.

Always keen to help.

[Meniscus]

Yes, I did see how you set yours up in the build thread. And I have been leaning towards the front boom adjustment, mainly for ease of execution and less risk of shifting (stronger platform).

So far as the build, I have to get the foam to start shaping the tub. Then I'll lay my ballistic material over, layer by layer with 24 hour set times in between.

[j.m.]

Do NOT use ballistic fabric for composite construction. It is not the same.

Make a set of templates to cut the foam with. They will help you make sure it is symetrical.

[Meniscus]

???

OK, I'm confused. I have some aramid-type fabric (special composite material) that I'm planning on skinning over foam for the main tub in layers.

j.m., I guess I'm not understanding your comment. Please provide clarification. Thanks!

[j.m.]

There are two basic "types" of kevlar fabric.

That which can be used for, and is certified for, making ballistic vests.

There is another which is primarily used for composites construction.

If what you have was not specifically marketed as ballistic grade fabric, don't worry.

As for making the tub, what you are proposing to do will work, but you will NOT get the results you are looking for.

If you are going to shape a plug out of foam, go ahead and do so. Once it is PERFECTLY symetrical, slice it in half. It doesn't really matter how, but cut it along it's length. Most people prefer for the seam to be on the side of a hull. It helps to already have lines on the foam to help shape it and cut it. If you use templates to cut the foam, you can cut the template in half to make it easier.

Now. Once you have your two pieces, you will want to seal them. Begin by giving them a coat of thin epoxy. Once it has dried, sand it smooth. Feel free to add some light glass in there if you want.

Now do it again.

Make sure that all the edges are sharp, not rounded. Any imperfections should be filled in.

Then you can begin to coat the two plugs with thick auto primer. Sand and coat many times until the surface is free of blemishes. It may not look pretty, but it should be smooth. Use progressively higher grit sand paper with each coat.

Once the two plugs look nice, you need to get some MDF. HDF would be great. Thickness doesn't matter that much, but you want at least 1/2". Cut two pieces, one for each plug, so that there is quite a bit of room around the plugs. Say, oh, around 4"-5" extra.

These two pieces need to be flat. I mean FLAT. it is easier to make sure they are flat than to try to match a curve between the two.

You can auto prime and sand the MDF if you wish, but be sure to use a sanding bar bigger than the board.

Measure and align the two plugs on their respective boards so that they are as perfectly aligned as possible.

Check the corners between the plugs and the board. You want a nice sharp edge here.

After they are both muonted and pretty, you need some mold release wax. Coat the board and the plugs in a few thin coats.

Then you can begin to make a mold! Yay!

Start with a thin coat of epoxy, microballoons, and gellcoat (black works best) over both boards. Once that has tacked up a bit, (NOT dried) lay down some layers of light glass. (.75oz/sq yd.) 5 or 6 should do. Use a lot of epoxy here, and don't bother removing the excess too much. Once you have some light glass on there, another liberal oat of epoxy and more layers of heavier glass (~2.5 oz/sq yd.) should follow. By now, the corners (on top) should be nice and round. Laying the glass down and getting it to stick in the corners should not be a problem.

Once these layers are on, you can begin to use even heavier glass to build up the thickness of the mold. 5 oz should do, and after that you an use 10 if you wish. Get the mold at least 1/4" thick.

Once all of your glass is layed up, let everything set for 36-48 hours. You want to be SURE that it is fully cured.

Oncec it's all dry, you can try to slide a flat blad screwdriver between the mold and the MDF (trimming should be required to cut the mold to the edge of the board) and with a little bit of work, the mold should pop right off. You will now see how all your work payed off. The inside surface of the black gelcoat should be glass smooth. Don't worry if it isn't, you can clean it up.

Now you need to take your plugs off the boards and glue them together so they are aligned.

Plan on using a glue that isn't too strong to hold the plugs to the boards, because they don't take a lot of stress.

One your plugs are glued together and the edge is cleaned up you need to insert them into the mold halves, and put the two molds together. They should not wobble or move at all.

Trim the edges of the molds so they match and drill holes through both sides so that the molds will line up.

You should drill the holes to fit some bolts that you wish to use to hold the two halves together pretty tightly. There should be no play present.

Once you are happy with the fit of the mold halves to each other, go ahead and separate them and pull out the plug.

Once you add release wax to the mold, it's surface should be nice and shiny.

NOW you re ready to make some parts.

The mold should last years, and if you take care of it, last through many hundreds of parts.

The outside surface of the finished hulls will be perfectly smooth and shiny. This would NOT happen if you just put kevlar over a plug and then ate away the foam. The surface would look terrible, and if you sanded it smooth (which is VERY hard with kevlar) the strength of the part would be greatly compromised.

Read through this, it should answer all of your questions, as well as cover other mold making techniques:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=864161

[j.m.]

Sorry. Double post.

It's my school's internet...:glare:

[Meniscus]

OK, just reading the info j.m...

1st, the material I'm using is ballistic type, but a blend that isn't on the market except for military sales. PM me and I can provide the specs.

2nd, my mention of molds was related to the sponsons and was mainly a joke. I don't have the workspace or experience yet to give the proper attention to making a mold at the present time. I'd love to, but I think I would be better served to assist someone else as an apprentice prior to attempting myself.

3rd, so my thought is, shape the foam the way I want, paying very close attention to the angles to ensure symmetry. Then, slowly wrap the foam with my material (thin fabric layers) one layer at a time, allowing for 24 hr cure between applications. Then address any anomalies when applying final coat. I'm guessing that there will have to be 7 or so layers before I have the rigidity that I desire. However, I'm going to have to see how it goes and play it by ear. I will not be dissolving the foam, merely cutting out for electronics. I probably will coat the inside so that I can prevent some water from contaminating the foam. I'm sure that some would say that it can't dry out, but at that point, I'm sure I'll be putting the sponsons on the next version, LOL!


Thanks for all the great info! I didn't see your post until just a minute ago, so I was unaware of the information provided. :)

[j.m.]

You wont get good results with the ballistic fabric like I already said twice. It is not good for composite construction. That fabric is not meant to be bonded together using epoxy. It is not meant to be bonded to form a fiber/epoxy matrix at all.

And I understand completely what you were talking about.

And I am saying that wraping fabric over foam will not give you a good part.

Try it with some glass so you can see what I am talking about.

[Stealth Assassin]

Ah, the lost mold technique... :spy:

P.S. The resin needs to breathe to cure.

[QUOTE=Meniscus;66065] I will not be dissolving the foam, merely cutting out for electronics. I probably will coat the inside so that I can prevent some water from contaminating the foam. I'm sure that some would say that it can't dry out, QUOTE]



JM,
Very good explanation! What state are you In? Do you have any pics of some of your work? I am Interested...

[j.m.]

Dang!

I can't believe I haven't updated my profile...

I'm in Raleigh, NC.

I'm 16, and a junior in HS.

This summer, I will be making (and selling) composite sailplanes. I'll try to remember to give you some pics then.

Meniscus, how much did those sponsons cost?

They really are pretty...

[Meniscus]

What I paid for them isn't nearly what they sell for now. Wow! Etti is selling them on Ebay now for $95 shipped! Ouch!


They are nice. I like them a lot. I'm glad I got them when I did. Maybe Steven can work you a deal.

[Meniscus]

Meanwhile, I'm thinking of trying the fabric over foam technique. I appreciate you're input j.m., but I guess I'm stubborn.

If that doesn't work, I may have to talk someone else out of a tub they aren't using. But we'll see.

As a final thought, I am seriously considering taking Fluid's advise and making this rigger a little longer. Thanks again to everyone for sharing your personal experiences.

I'm looking forward to additional input! Keep it coming, good or bad, LOL.

[ghostofpf1]

The problem with the ballistic kevlar is that it may not be "Sized" or treated to bond with ester resins.
I'd make a small test piece first to check bond...where did you buy "ballistic" grade kevlar and is it marked as such ??
Forgive me J.M. if you said any of this in your post:
wrapping the fabric over a foam plug is called the "lost Foam " technique and usually gasoline is used to dissolve the foam out of the center after the lay up is done for doublers,equipment placement and lightness .This usually requires post finishing of the piece by filling any open weave with appropriate fillers and sanding much like prepping to paint a car.

If you use kevlar you'll have to add layers of glass (e-glass or s-glass doesn't matter) on the outside as there's no way to sand kevlar without creating a fuzzy mess that can't be painted but you can sand and fill glass layers very easily.Use low viscosity laminating/finishing resins ONLY as 5 or even 30 minute epoxies don't leave enough working time and are not sanded as easily as a good laminating resin.You can use Saran wrap to wrap the whole thing while wet if you're careful to avoid folds and creases and you'll get away with less filling/sanding

Epoxy Resin DOES NOT need air to cure...I've vacuum bagged many wings for my aiplanes and there's very little air in a vacuum :confused:
I'd suggest making a heated curing box if it's cold when you do this...a couple 60 watt bulbs in a box insulated with foam (don't set things on fire) works well as Epoxy resin does need heat to cure properly.

Hope this helps..
Ghost

[Meniscus]

This material came from my work (extra). It is a blend of many different things and isn't available for purchase for general public. Let's put it this way, I seriously doubt that anyone has any experience with this particular material for various reasons. I have tested sections of it and it lays up well, without any issues.

I am familiar with the lost foam technique and this is where my thought process comes from.

Now we're saying that epoxy resin doesn't need air? I didn't think it needed air for the chemical reaction to take place, but I don't have the experience to make that determination myself.

I'd love to get into vacuum bagging, but as I said previously, I don't have the workspace or experience.

Thanks for the input Ghost.

[j.m.]

I use a food saver for my wings. The bag has a built in breather cloth, and works great.

[ghostofpf1]

Thanks for the input Ghost.

NP...I have some experience with laying up vacuum bagged glider wings with carbon fiber and glass along with some in kevlar.Also a few self made parts for various projects utilizing CF and glass using foam as the mold substrate .
I can't stress enough the importance of heat during the post cure for nice crisp parts.I recently made a nice thick ~3/16" CF sheet to cut a turn fin bracket out of for my predator rigger and forgot to turn on the lamps in the curing box.The result was an apparently cured part that was so soft it could be readily twisted out of shape by relatively gentle pressure.Your resin of choice should come with recommendations regarding curing temps.
You'll find that by cutting your material at a 45 deg bias it will go around corners more readily
HTH
Steve

[j.m.]

Some epoxies do need a heat cure, but others (usually less expensive lam resins) can fully cure at room temp. I'm not saying that heat doesn't hurt, but if you don't have room for a hot box, you should use an epoxy that doesn't require a heated cure.

[Meniscus]

OK, here's an update. The first picture is the raw tub. The second is the basic shape, but has not been smoothed and measured for even dimensions. Note that the front, top will have slightly more angle once it is smoothed.
89738974

[Meniscus]

Next question: How do you cut material such as carbon fiber, ballistic, kevlar, twaron, spectra, etc.? I have cut with a razor blade over many passes in the same spot (12-15 passes) and I've tested the material to see how it lays up. Right now, I need some direction as to how everyone else cuts their various material.

I can't cut with any scissors (industrial or standard), does not cut with wire cutters easily, does not work with Dremel (shreds). So how is everyone else cutting these materials? Next, I think I might take a torch to it! LMAO

Thanks in advance for the input!

[ghostofpf1]

I use scissors that are made for kevlar and have serrated edges so the cloth doesn't slip out of the jaws. Regular serrated scissors may work if you have them at hand already.
hope this helps
Steve

[Meniscus]

hmmmm....I'll have to try that. What about kitchen shears for meat prep? (thinking of what I have immediately available)

I didn't know they have specialty scissors. It looks like I may have to find those.

[Diegoboy]

It is looking very good! Get this thing pond ready already.

[Ub Hauled]

Ben, how fast are you planning in going? I noticed that you have a ncie wedge on the bottom of the hull... that will generate heaps of lift... maybe something you should take under consideration.

[Meniscus]

You mean you didn't see the wings? J/K

I know. I'm thinking that when I create the adjustable front boom, I can adjust the amount of downforce with a adjustable wing on the front. By doing it this way, I'll have the option of more or less lift and can adjust for different COG or different batts. Maybe too much adjustment, but I'll learn.......eventually. LOL

As a final thought, I also have the consideration and adjustment so that I can ensure that the tub doesn't drag while getting up on plane. Maybe I'm silly.

Thanks for noticing and bringing that to my attention.

[ghostofpf1]

hmmmm....I'll have to try that. What about kitchen shears for meat prep? (thinking of what I have immediately available)

I didn't know they have specialty scissors. It looks like I may have to find those.

Try the serrated meat shears first.Failing that these are what you're looking for...http://www.acp-composites.com/acp-ta.htm
I have the 8" multi use shears and can vouch for them cutting light kevlar fabrics in the sub 2 oz range but not sure how long they'd hold up to thicker stuff as the handles are composite and they'd likely flex too much.I use them to cut up to 5.7oz carbon fiber twill with no problem but kevlar is just tougher.
hope this helps
Steve

[Meniscus]

Great info! Thanks.

I think this project will be on temporary hold while I'm rebuilding my truck. Its amazing how a $30 oil pump can bring everything to a halt without warning. No tick, no chatter, or anything, just died when the engine seized due the bearing overheating against the crankshaft. No oil, heat, that's it.

So I'm just bought $1,134 in parts to do the rebuild. At least I know enough to replace the clutch and so forth while I got the engine out! LOL

[Flying Scotsman]

Great info! Thanks.

I think this project will be on temporary hold while I'm rebuilding my truck. Its amazing how a $30 oil pump can bring everything to a halt without warning. No tick, no chatter, or anything, just died when the engine seized due the bearing overheating against the crankshaft. No oil, heat, that's it.

So I'm just bought $1,134 in parts to do the rebuild. At least I know enough to replace the clutch and so forth while I got the engine out! LOL

Ben, Oh my God. What make and year?

Douggie

[Meniscus]

'01 Dodge 1500, 318 w/ M/T, 109k miles.

You should have seen the list that I walked into the parts store with. I am doing everything while the engine is out. That's why its so much. I just can't see putting the engine back in, without doing some things. Its just too easy at this point.

You can see some pictures here (http://www.diegoboy.com/11-02-08/party.html)

[Meniscus]

Alright, in your personal opinion, what is the preferred water pickup for a rigger such as mine?

In the rudder? Above and behind the prop, in the wash? In a sponson? offset from the hardware mounted against the transom? Another idea?

For the record, I'm not entertaining placing the water pickup in the sponson for this build, nor placing in the bottom of the tub in the back as I'm hoping to have as little as possible on the water's surface. I just want the prop in the water, not the tub.

[Meniscus]

Anyone?

[Dr. Jet]

Common sense would indicate that the least drag would be a pickup behind and above the prop. There will still be a de minimis. amount of drag, as the prop's rooster tail would in effect be "pushing" against the pickup, but it will be minimal. If you position the pickup above the prop to capture the vertically-rising portion of the rooster tail, you may actually get a vertical component of force, producing some lift. This is probably so small, you would never notice it, but it is there nonetheless.

[Meniscus]

I wouldn't have even realized regarding the lift! Thanks for the input. Considering the overall weight is being kept to a minimum, it may make more of a difference than with other similar setups.

What's all this talk about common sense? I'm not sure I know what that is or for that matter, what gravity is either. If I can "charge" the hull, then effectively, I can create a slipstream of electrons to reduce drag. I think the color would be aquamarine if you know what I mean and follow that stuff. LOL ;)

[Meniscus]

I guess I'm not funny. Oh well, its not the first time that I'm not funny and won't be the last.

I'm thinking how to execute the prop wash water pickup, but I'm not a fan of how this typically looks. Does anyone have a streamlined design they wouldn't mind sharing?

[j.m.]

?

A little brass pipe out the back of the boat IS "streamlined".

[Meniscus]

I just didn't know if someone had some fancy design they were employing for this style pickup.

[Meniscus]

OK, here's the update:

Tub - Shape is done and needs covering with material
Sponsons - Need to be drilled and aligned at the correct angle
Batteries - I have qty. 2 - 2s lipos to be run in series, so = 4s
Motor - For now, I'm going with the Ammo 28-45-2700 I have. I'll probably take Dr. Jet up on his offer later, but that's TBD
Strut and Rudder Hardware - In hand and ready to go on
Driveline - Ready to go in, coupler ready
Turn Fin - Refer to other thread: http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=5912 - user: "westbeach" is helping me out with that, you got to love this forum!

Motor Mount - need to pickup
Water Jacket for Motor - need to pickup
Prop - need to pickup and get S/B
Adjustable Sponson Mount - need to fabricate

So there's the update. I'm hoping that I will get some time next week to start checking off the list for assembly.

[Dr. Jet]

This was a Micro Iceberg. The prop is an X427.

[Meniscus]

I'll keep that in mind, thanks Dr. Jet. Right now, I'm leaning towards a 3-blader. But, I admit I don't have near the experience as others, so I'm going to let the more seasoned guys in the club help to steer me in the right direction.

What's the worst that could happen? I get an extra prop or two in the prop box? And before you get any ideas, my prop box consists of 4 sections, overall size measuring roughly 2" x 2" x 1"! LMAO

[Meniscus]

OK, I'm back to motor options. I'm thinking about an 1107/2D, 2s2p at 7400mah. What do you guys think? Also, I can't seem to find the amp rating for this motor. Input anyone? Am I way off base?

[Meniscus]

Isn't anyone going to weigh in? Thanks.

[Ub Hauled]

Info on the motor Ben:

http://www.flydma.com/index.php?cPath=1_4_14

[Meniscus]

Thanks for the link Jan. Thing is, I don't see this motor. Am I missing something?

[Ub Hauled]

oops... I could have sworn I saw it there... look here:
http://www.castlecreations.com/products/neumotors/nm1100.html

not much info but you can calculate what you need from the data

[Meniscus]

Cool! It looks like I'm not too far off then. Unless...

What do you think for this build, keeping in mind it is ultralight?

[Apples1]

i have a 34in full CF rigger running on 4s and i am running a 1521 1d 440 - 445 prop.

[Meniscus]

Thanks for the input Apples1!

I regret to say I don't have enough funds to afford that much motor, especially with some of my other projects. The reason why I was going with the 1107/2D is the KV vs. watts. I want to use the 2s lipos I have in parallel for the power vs. weight and still achieve appropriate rpms.

I would entertain some other configurations, but right now, I'm trying to get this running fast without having to purchase more lipos to make it happen. I do have a 3s at 2300 mah, but I don't think that will last long under the current draw to make it go fast. Does that make sense?

[Ub Hauled]

Ben, I have to say that I am not very familiarized with that motor... actually... not familiarized at all...

[Meniscus]

LOL, well it sounds like I may be the guinea pig. We'll see what everyone else says.

Does anyone run a 2s2p setup in SAWS?

[Ub Hauled]

I have not seen it in hydros but in Monos I believe people have done it.

[Meniscus]

Who's talking hydro? I'm talking rigger ;)

[Ub Hauled]

I meant hydro type boats... Riggers, Shovels, Pickle Forks, Cats, Tunnels...
;)

[Apples1]

I am running 2 x 2s lipos in series as well!!

[calcagno45]

Apples: I think Ben is only running 7.4v's with twice the mah in his. You're running 14.8v.

[J Solinger]

Just for intrest sake, this is a hull that was made by the lost foam method. Composit materials can be purchased in tube form, more like a tube sock. The form is made of foam and the sock is pulled over and saturated with resin. This was made by Terry Keeley:

http://i39.tinypic.com/k0547n.jpg

[Meniscus]

I meant hydro type boats... Riggers, Shovels, Pickle Forks, Cats, Tunnels...;)

I know UB, just giving ya a hard time.


Apples: I think Ben is only running 7.4v's with twice the mah in his. You're running 14.8v.Yes, that is correct.


Composit materials can be purchased in tube form, more like a tube sock. The form is made of foam and the sock is pulled over and saturated with resin.

So, a tube sock? I may have to test that method. I don't think I've heard of that before. Is it the same to use hose or something along those lines? Or does it have to be thick? I was just thinking of a longer format for the tub to execute this idea. And the resin dries OK?

[ghostofpf1]

So, a tube sock? I may have to test that method. I don't think I've heard of that before. Is it the same to use hose or something along those lines? Or does it have to be thick?

Looks like a chinese finger puzzle....I've used it before to make a lost foam glider fuselage
Look towards the bottom of the page for an example...http://www.acp-composites.com/home.php?cat=251
HTH
Steve

[calcagno45]

How do you get the foam out the tube afterwards?

[Meniscus]

I think that most use gasoline, but I'm sure there are other solvents that can be used.

[Meniscus]

Looks like a chinese finger puzzle....I've used it before to make a lost foam glider fuselage
Look towards the bottom of the page for an example...http://www.acp-composites.com/home.php?cat=251
HTH
Steve

Great link Ghost! Thanks!

[calcagno45]

I think that most use gasoline, but I'm sure there are other solvents that can be used.

Ah, so they disapate the foam with a solvent. Smart idea. I'd like to see thise process in action.

[Meniscus]

I'd like to see thise process in action.

So would I :banana:

...oh wait, nevermind. I'm going to see it again!

[ghostofpf1]

Best to wrap your foam plug with tape beforehand so you can pull it out after melting out the foam with solvent.Leaves far less mess to clean on the inside that way
good luck
Steve

[Meniscus]

That would be the best suggestion of the day! LOL, practical even.

[Ub Hauled]

Best to wrap your foam plug with tape beforehand so you can pull it out after melting out the foam with solvent.Leaves far less mess to clean on the inside that way
good luck
Steve

How does it affect the shape? I am assuming that there will be little ridges created by the tape on the final result...

[ghostofpf1]

How does it affect the shape? I am assuming that there will be little ridges created by the tape on the final result...

That material is pretty thick and if you're careful with the taping it should be a non-event.
Besides...to get a really smooth finish there's going to be some post work to be done anyway
Steve

[Meniscus]

So, am I buying Pam spray or tape?

LMAO!

[Meniscus]

Just for intrest sake, this is a hull that was made by the lost foam method. Composit materials can be purchased in tube form, more like a tube sock. The form is made of foam and the sock is pulled over and saturated with resin. This was made by Terry Keeley:

http://i39.tinypic.com/k0547n.jpg

Joe, do you happen to know if those sponsons are in fact sea plane floats?

[Meniscus]

:confused1: HELP!:help:

OK, I'm getting ready to drill the sponsons, but I'm a concerned as to how I'm going to stabilize without drilling all the way through. If I do drill all the way through, how do I manage attachment on the other side with a curved surface?

I know someone has run into this issue previously ;)

All input is welcome :laugh:

Thanks!

[Reesor@work]

I know Terry Keeley, he's from Toronto and races in IMPBA. I have been to his shop and no those are not sea plane floats. Terry is a master craftsman. He uses a router to shape most of the profiles on his cowls, and sponsons. He is also a master at vacuum bagging.

His boats are quite simply works of art. His riggers are all his own designs. If you want to see some How-to pictorials, check out his album over on International Waters. If you really want to drool, check out his "dream shop"...its amazing.

[Meniscus]

I know Terry Keeley, he's from Toronto and races in IMPBA. I have been to his shop and no those are not sea plane floats. Terry is a master craftsman. He uses a router to shape most of the profiles on his cowls, and sponsons. He is also a master at vacuum bagging.

His boats are quite simply works of art. His riggers are all his own designs. If you want to see some How-to pictorials, check out his album over on International Waters. If you really want to drool, check out his "dream shop"...its amazing.

I did not intend to offend or discount others efforts or accomplishments. I was just curious.

Just wanted to set that straight. :thumbup1:

Thanks for the input Reesor, I will definitely check out those how-to-pictorials. Any chance they include some ideas for my drilling issues and sponson attachment?

[j.m.]

So you decided to not do this the proven way?

I know I told you how everybody else does it (Because it WORKS)...

And who had the packing tape/pam idea?

That's not going to give you a smooth surface. At ALL.

Seal your plug with epoxy.

Sand it.

Seal again.

Paint it black. This will allow you to see all imperfections.

Sand again.

Paint/sand/paint untill the surface is exactly how you want the finished part to look.

I know this comes across as really harsh, but I don't wanna see you waste materials and ruin your plug by doing this the wrong way.

And if you really want to use a sleeve (And don't want to make a mold), you can get a smooth outer surface by using large heatshrink. I forget the name of the place that sells it, but it's available in pretty large diameters. I'll go search for it and get back to you later.

***EDIT*** Just looked up what Soller Composites sells>

They have heat shrink tubing specifically designed for this application available from .25" diameter to 7.1". Available at the bottom of this page:
http://www.solarcomposites.com/composites/carbon%20fiber%20sleeves.html

But it'll most likely take you a while to get there (with all the pretty stuff on that page). And yes, any of the sleeves they sell would be perfect. But more than one layer would be needed. So, something pretty like a carbon/kevlar outer sleeve, and then just carbon or basalt fiber on the inside.

[Meniscus]

So you decided to not do this the proven way?

I enjoy learning my own lessons in life. It is not a disregard for other's thoughts and ideas, quite the opposite.


And who had the packing tape/pam idea?

Humor.


I know this comes across as really harsh, but I don't wanna see you waste materials and ruin your plug by doing this the wrong way.

Not a big deal, my material and time. :tongue_smilie:


JM,
...Do you have any pics of some of your work? I am Interested...

I would be interested to see as well.

[ghostofpf1]

I'd be careful using heat shrink tubing....It's made to use over hard substrates like a mandrel, may not be as controllable as you like and may overly compress your lost foam plug.

As far as j.m. laughing at my tape idea obviously you've never attempted the process so please....

Steve

[j.m.]

I'm still wondering how the tape would conform to the foam without either creases or a bunch of little lines where the edge of the tape is.

[Meniscus]

Ah, experience. How bittersweet!

[Meniscus]

I know Terry Keeley, he's from Toronto and races in IMPBA. I have been to his shop and no those are not sea plane floats. Terry is a master craftsman. He uses a router to shape most of the profiles on his cowls, and sponsons. He is also a master at vacuum bagging.

His boats are quite simply works of art. His riggers are all his own designs. If you want to see some How-to pictorials, check out his album over on International Waters. If you really want to drool, check out his "dream shop"...its amazing.

Reesor, I've tried once again to register with Intl Waters with no success. :(
I tried it back in Sept., Dec., and now Feb without any progress. Funny thing is, I helped a friend get on that forum with no problem. LOL! I guess that's the way it goes.

Could you send me a direct link to his How-to guide? Thanks, I really appreciate it.

[SteveReesor]

This should take you to Terry's gallery...they're all good.

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/index.php?cat=10068

[Meniscus]

This should take you to Terry's gallery...they're all good.

http://gallery.intlwaters.com/index.php?cat=10068

Thanks Steve!

[egneg]

When I click on the site I get a warning - access file is infected.

[Meniscus]

When I click on the site I get a warning - access file is infected.

I clicked the link earlier and it loaded, but I didn't go any further. What did you see Egneg? Did the site load for you?

[egneg]

No - all I got was the warning.

[Meniscus]

Hmmmmmm.....I'll try again when I get to work. I run through a proxy server there.

[egneg]

Here is a screen shot.

[ghostofpf1]

I get the same "Orphaned Lure Site" message using firefox browser and AVG free anti virus..
If you google "Orphaned Lure Site" you get a info that the page was hacked at some time and likely still contains malicious code
Steve

[RandyatBBY]

Steve I have done the tape method and it is not that eazy. The tape likes to stick to the hardned Resin very hard to remove. It is allso hard to get to stickwhen in the wet form. That is why I spend all the time making molds and doing lay ups.

[Meniscus]

Thanks for the experienced input Randy, now if I could just get you to make this for me! LOL, J/K I like to do myself.

On second thought, I may have to stop by your shop some time to watch it done! Or you could post one of those 45min videos and give away all of your secrets ;)

[ghostofpf1]

Steve I have done the tape method and it is not that eazy. The tape likes to stick to the hardned Resin very hard to remove. It is allso hard to get to stickwhen in the wet form. That is why I spend all the time making molds and doing lay ups.

Hi Randy
I had good results with the colored packing tape I use to tape up foam airplanes.A friend uses spray applied mold release over the tape to facilitate removal.
I think a mold for a simple tub would be just a little more work than the lost foam method and would produce superior results ....after making the plug all you need to do is make a splitter plate..joggle gasket...and do a good job on laying up the mold.
There are tutorials on the web for doing this Mensiscus if you just search around a little
HTH
Steve

[Meniscus]

Please define joggle gasket, LOL.

[ghostofpf1]

Please define joggle gasket, LOL.

It's an offset part of the mold that provides a lip to mate the other 1/2 of the part to.
HTH

edit: You might find some interesting things in this forum..http://www.rcgroups.com/composites-fabrication-210/

Steve

[Meniscus]

It's an offset part of the mold that provides a lip to mate the other 1/2 of the part to.
HTH

edit: You might find some interesting things in this forum..http://www.rcgroups.com/composites-fabrication-210/

Steve

Thanks for the link. :thumbup1:

[Meniscus]

OK, here's the latest and where I need help:

I'm creating the bracket for the adjustable sponson angles, much like the Xzess III Mr. Krabs. Only thing is, I'd like to see how H&M secures these brackets inside the hull to ensure they don't shift while skipping across the water.

Can someone post a picture please?

Thanks!

[Xzessperated]

OK, here's the latest and where I need help:

I'm creating the bracket for the adjustable sponson angles, much like the Xzess III Mr. Krabs. Only thing is, I'd like to see how H&M secures these brackets inside the hull to ensure they don't shift while skipping across the water.

Can someone post a picture please?

Thanks!

Ben,
I did not use the CF brackets that H&M include with the Mr. Krabs. I created my own with the help of a template provided by Andrewg. The advantage of his idea is that there is one less bolt hole in the hull so one less place to seal up. As you can see I used the rear CF boom to swing the brackets off (number 2 in the picture). There is a slot in the bracket so the bolt can allow adjustment up and down (number 1 in the picture). H&M have put wood inside the hull (13mm or 1/2 inch at a guess) The bolt hole goes through the hull and the wood. Blind nuts do the job of holding it all in place.
Let me know if you need more pictures.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3136/2827027205_c42d5abe7c_o.jpg

[Meniscus]

Very good info!

I was already planning on the rear mount position like you have executed. I agree that a blind nut would be the most appropriate way for the front adjustment. I imagine I'll put a washer up against the hull to spread out the load. Plus, with a blind nut, I can seal without worrying about the introduction of water inside the tub.

Thanks again for the info!

It's nice to clearly see where I'm going from time to time! LOL!

[Xzessperated]

Very good info!

I was already planning on the rear mount position like you have executed. I agree that a blind nut would be the most appropriate way for the front adjustment. I imagine I'll put a washer up against the hull to spread out the load. Plus, with a blind nut, I can seal without worrying about the introduction of water inside the tub.

Thanks again for the info!

It's nice to clearly see where I'm going from time to time! LOL!

I am quitely watching and learning from your thread so thank you Ben.

[Meniscus]

...learning from your thread...

LOL! So am I!!! :lol:

[Meniscus]

Does anyone sell plates for mounting hardware etc?

I know that Joe Solinger uses them on all of his hardware he offers, but I wasn't sure if it was available anywhere else.

Personally, I love the idea of not using blind nuts now days. I guess everyone else uses a locking nut and a washer to distribute the load. Is that the way everyone else does it?

[tylerm]

yeap, if you use lock nuts try to use washers. Mounting plates are cool, its one of the reasons i like the solinger system.

[Meniscus]

That's why I'm wondering if anyone makes the mounting plates ;) because I like them soooooooo much.

[Ub Hauled]

Mounting plates are cool, its one of the reasons i like the solinger system.

what are you talking about (link please)?

[ghostofpf1]

what are you talking about (link please)?

Instead of using nuts and washers Solingers stuff (and some others) comes with a backing plate that has threaded holes in it to accept the through bolts..
Steve

[Ub Hauled]

oh! yeah.. now it makes sense...
I got a bit confused while reading it...
yes, I like that backing plate... makes
things that much easier. But blind nuts
have their value... I like using them whenever I can.

[egneg]

I prefer the blind nuts as they are steel where as most backing plates are aluminum and easily stripped or cross threaded.

[Meniscus]

OK, so only steel backing plates for Egneg ;)

[tylerm]

Only problem i have with blind nuts is the fact they're coated steel, some stainless ones would be nice. The pond my club runs in is filled with water from the harbour and so it is quite salty, i try my best to keep them in good condition, but the salt gets everywere(even when your boat is watertight).

[Simon.O.]

Only problem i have with blind nuts is the fact they're coated steel, some stainless ones would be nice. The pond my club runs in is filled with water from the harbour and so it is quite salty, i try my best to keep them in good condition, but the salt gets everywere(even when your boat is watertight).
You have to love that salty Mauukau water Tyler.
As far as attaching gear goes I do it one of two ways.
Stainless bolt through the hull to a ss nyloc nut. I use large wahers to spread the load and sometimes make a spreader plate,
Nut on the inside or out depends on the application and ability to get tools into the gap.
Option 2 is a good wad of hard wood and ss self taping screws.
Believe it or not that is how the hardware will be fitted to my next (current) build.
If you tell them Ben I will send the Mossad after your ass :roflol:

[Meniscus]

Tell what? Oh, where you get those self tapping screws...got it ;)

[Meniscus]

Well, this project is back on. I've had some various debates with myself regarding the powerplant. For now, I've got a few ideas and no cash, LOL!

I've carved another tub, but I didn't care for how it came out.

...more to come soon I hope...

[Ub Hauled]

is it shaped like an apple?
;)

[Meniscus]

How did you know? Actually, more like a pear ;)

Or for that matter, a lemon!

[egneg]

Any updated pictures? Is this any closer to the water?

[Meniscus]

I can try to get some updated pictures posted.

To be honest, I screwed up once now while overlaying the material. I'm on attempt two now. Also, I'm sorting out the hardware. As you've probably seen in the Swap Shop, I picked up a strut for this thing and will be installing once I'm successful with overlaying the material.

I think I may be best served to borrow Diego's cutting shears. I've been having some difficulty cutting the material. The material tends to fray as I'm cutting and so it's been a little tough.

[Meniscus]

OK, no update as of yet. Had to fix transmission in the truck and been doing a few side jobs in the evening to pay the bills. I guess keeping the lights on is first priority, LOL! J/K

Still trying to sort out hardware. Schedule is busy throughout the weekend, I'm hoping to work on this Monday evening.

[Stealth Assassin]

Where's the pics????????????????????????????????

:popcorn2::rules::nopity::noidea::nono:

[Meniscus]

Where's the pics????????????????????????????????

:popcorn2::rules::nopity::noidea::nono:


Don't worry, they're coming!!! :thumbup1: