MGM esc programming problem

[triton]

Hi

May I need some help about the controllers programming?
Three MGM controller what I have and the same problem with all.
I use the default factory settings only a few parameters what I was changed. Like lipo cell, cut off voltage and the programmed throttle control.
The problem is when I pull full throttle, around the middle of the throttle position the ESC block the motor.
I was emailed with Martin from MGM and he said try to change the P16 parameter. This is the acceleration time or use a smaller prop. Now the p16 on 9.(default 1.5). So it's better but not the real one. The acceleration is too long time and need a "kilometer" for full speed
The setup:
Agitator XL cat
Twin 5660 tp
12s lipo
x457 props reduced to 52
250.63 x2 MGM

The other mono boat do the same with the 400.63 ESC.
I think something I do not do well.
Is there any idea what to do?

Regards Peter

[RaceMechaniX]

Peter,
What radio and receiver at you running? Do you have a servo tester that could replace the receiver and test the motor and controller using the tester to rule out the receiver/radio.

Also, which motors are you using?

Tyler

[triton]

Hi Tyler
Sanwa m11 and rx 441 receiver.
With no load the rpm goes to max.
Under load comes the limit.
With another futaba radio the same problem.

[RaceMechaniX]

Try setting the timing to a fixed value like 10 Deg instead of Autotiming.

[triton]

Timing 6 degrees
The motor type tp5660 7D
I know it is on the limit with 12S.
Is there a problem?

[Fluid]

Several guys in the local club reported seeing something similar with their HV MGM controllers. Throttle drops off after a short time, logging shows excessive amps even with proven setups, etc. These guys are not newbies. That’s all I know at the moment, odd.



.

[RandyatBBY]

Mine does the same thing on launch. I always roll in to the throttle lightly. If I seam to pull the throttle too quick it blocks/or stops it. Once I get to full speed I can then hammer it at any speed. I am running a 1530 .5Y MGM 400-63 and a 47MM prop on 4S3P in a 34 inch sport Hydro.

[triton]

I'm not happy to hear tha similar.
I was changed all the cheap controllers (like flier,hifei,turnigy) for mgm professional ESC. These are 4 times more expensive like the others, and now I cant pull a full throttle with a 400Amp Pro ESC. Incredible.

[RaceMechaniX]

1180kv is pretty hot for 12S. I am not too surprised. You are likely seeing current limiting due to high phase currents.

Does it do the same behavior on 6, 8 or 10 cells?

[triton]

Not yet.
Next time I will try with 10s and share the experience.
Do you know how does the controller measure the peak and the input current?
Because after last track the peak was 810 amper, the input was 237 amper.

[RaceMechaniX]

The MGM's track both DC input current and AC phase current. With hot motors, it's usually the phase current which will cause them to start current liming.
And if your data is showing 810A AC peak, then that is too much.

Tyler

[rayzerdesigns]

I have had same issues with the mgm.. if u haven’t updated the firmware please do. It helps but does it eliminate it.. I’m not happy with mine either

[triton]

I found another topic on OSE, and the guy who uses D wind motors like me, has the same problem. He said will try lehners but no response from him yet.
Possible the MGM does not work well with the D wind motors?

[photohoward1]

800amps? 12s on a 100 KV Motor? Why?

[triton]

800amps? 12s on a 100 KV Motor? Why?

This came from the controller databox. This is the peak current. The input current much lower.
I dont know how.
The motor 1188kv.

[Doug Smock]

Several guys in the local club reported seeing something similar with their HV MGM controllers. Throttle drops off after a short time, logging shows excessive amps even with proven setups, etc. These guys are not newbies. That’s all I know at the moment, odd.



. One of our club members is having the same experience. Unfortunately he had a bunch of coin invested in them before he realized they are paperweights. IIRC two of them went back to the manufacturer and were returned with the same issues.

[RaceMechaniX]

It is known that there are good motor and ESC combinations and you have found one of the bad ones.
The MGM 25063, 40063 and even the 80063 do not work well with 4-pole Delta wind motors. In particular the Neu, TP and similar motors.
The same controllers work very well with the LMT motors and some 4-pole Wye wind motors.

The same is true for the newer Schulzes, they work well with LMT motors, but not the 4-pole Delta wind motors. The old Schulzes have no issue.

I demagnetized a Neu 2215/1.5Y with a 40063 in about 30 seconds due to incorrect settings. A fridge magnet had more strength than the rotor when i pulled it out.
since that incident, I only run the larger format MGM's (25063 and 40063) with LMT's. The smaller body 25035 and 28026 seem to work better with the non-LMT motors.
I will say the MGM's have many protection features that prevent them from burning up which is usually a plus, however all the watchdog features also limit performance unexpectantly sometimes.

Tyler

[Fluid]

This came from the controller databox. This is the peak current. The input current much lower.
I dont know how. The motor 1188kv.
This is another known issue, see post #6. Excessive logged amps, which could be related to the low power issue.

“Known” by who Tyler? This is the first I’ve heard of it, ditto at least some others. The few guys I know who own them now find they have invested thousands of dollars in equipment they can’t use. Next they have to buy new motors just to run their MGMs?

I know none of this is your fault, but it is very frustrating for the consumer.



.

[triton]

Tyler
Agree with you
No doubt that these are good solutions to protect the controllers but when I was purchased the controllers nobody said from MGM Peter pay attention how you chose your motor.........
But we exchanged many e-mails about the technical details with Martin and Tomas from MGM.
Is there any experience with y wind tp motor?

[robw]

just bought a tp5870 "D" wind/mgm 400 (to go in a buggy) hope it works:confused1:

[photohoward1]

My Schulze 40-160 controllers shut down after about 1 lap of full throttle runs on my TP d wind Motors. As I always tell guys in my club. Some combos just don’t play well together.


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[RaceMechaniX]

There were no specific posts, but several sidebar discussions on compatibility issues in the past. I know I have posted several times about Neu/TP motors with MGM controllers. And to anyone that has asked my advice I usually steer them away from these combo's. I agree it is frustrating to the end customer, but in defense of the ESC companies it takes hundreds of hours to tune ESC characteristics to suit such a wide variety of motors. Think about how many pole number, wind configurations, connectors, cable lengths and other permutations .

We were very fortunate that some like the Castle can be easily set-up for a wide variety of motors.

@ Triton, I have likely had all the same conversations you have had with Martin and MGM. My hope was that they would work on the tuning and get it solved over time.
I have worked with MGM on professional level controllers and know they are smart and capable guys. They have also built a very safe controller compared to 90% of the market. I don't know how well they will work with a Wye wind TP. Probably better, but I believe it has more to due with the inductance in the motors than the Winds.
Try setting your timing to 5 Deg, and low start-up torque or acceleration.

@Howard, you are talking about the new ones right? Your old ones should be pretty strong.

-Tyler

[Doug Smock]

It would be good if MGM would find a solution for guys like Don that are out to the tune of almost 2K! IMO they should have put a warning / disclaimer out there knowing there can be an issue.

Sure hope Castle comes back to the party!

[RandyatBBY]

My set up work well with a 40.160 but I am afraid of the getting it wet problem. I guess I could conformal coat it every 6 months and that will solve the problem.

[StevenBryant]

Tyler I have a 24.150wk that I was lan to use with a castle 1512 1y motor, do you think I may have problems with this combination?


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[photohoward1]

There were no specific posts, but several sidebar discussions on compatibility issues in the past. I know I have posted several times about Neu/TP motors with MGM controllers. And to anyone that has asked my advice I usually steer them away from these combo's. I agree it is frustrating to the end customer, but in defense of the ESC companies it takes hundreds of hours to tune ESC characteristics to suit such a wide variety of motors. Think about how many pole number, wind configurations, connectors, cable lengths and other permutations .

We were very fortunate that some like the Castle can be easily set-up for a wide variety of motors.

@ Triton, I have likely had all the same conversations you have had with Martin and MGM. My hope was that they would work on the tuning and get it solved over time.
I have worked with MGM on professional level controllers and know they are smart and capable guys. They have also built a very safe controller compared to 90% of the market. I don't know how well they will work with a Wye wind TP. Probably better, but I believe it has more to due with the inductance in the motors than the Winds.
Try setting your timing to 5 Deg, and low start-up torque or acceleration.

@Howard, you are talking about the new ones right? Your old ones should be pretty strong.

-Tyler

Newer.. yes

[triton]

I have some new information, but I think you know it.
MGM controllers work well with Lehners.
I found a 2250/10 motor in my cabinet, and today I have done some test run. Bigger prop size like with the other type motor and with blocked hull the MGM works great.
The acceleration time 0,5! Quick full throttle and the 2250 pushed out 9200w!!!!!!!!!!!!
There was no blocking.
Solution:must to buy lehners:)

[T.S.Davis]

The few guys I know who own them now find they have invested thousands of dollars in equipment they can’t use. Next they have to buy new motors just to run their MGMs?

I know none of this is your fault, but it is very frustrating for the consumer.

Frustrating. I'm in for 4 of these too.

It's not just the HV controllers. I raced a setup on a Seaking 180 that burned an MGM 280.26 to a crisp. MGM was able to extract the data off of the remains. It was pulling 1100 amps according to the log. But it works on a 180? hmmmm

I'm down to one that works but the link to PC doesn't work so no adjusting the 35 or so settings or data logging. I was able to set the Q record with that one though. On D wind no less. Picture me shrugging my shoulders.

[RaceMechaniX]

@ Steven, The 24.150 is probably the only Schulze that has a true rating equal to what is on the nameplate. If you can keep it below 150A DC input you will be OK. However, the 24.150's do not perform above the nameplate specs like the 40.160 and 32.200. The 40.3XX is another story.

@ Peter, good to hear the boat runs good with the Lehner. Unfortunately, there are no real good marine ESC's for the 4-pole motors. I plan on testing the YEP 180HV and a Kosmik 200HV with cooling for potential HV controllers in my boats in 2018.

My new style 40.160wk's and 32.200wk's will run quite happily with Wye wind 4-pole motors when I stick with a reasonable current.

The first gen Seaking 180's were pretty strong and surprised many of us. Mark F ran a T180 with some crazy Delta wind Neu motor when he went 80+ in his SAW mono. I thought for sure it was going to blow, but it survived. I have pushed one hard myself and it still runs great.

@ Terry, oddly enough I have burned up every other controller model except the MGM's. They have always current limited before I could cook them.

[Doug Smock]

I contacted MGM through their Facebook page. Tomas is going to check this thread out tomorrow.

I searched for the other thread that was up recently but was unable to find it. Does anyone know where it was?

[StevenBryant]

Doug check the threads that I started, there is one I put up when I had an issue with a 1527 1500kv and an mgm28026 controller, there should be a video of what happened. I would do it for you but I’m struggling to do it on my mobile phone


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[RandyatBBY]

I plan on testing the YEP 180HV and a Kosmik 200HV with cooling for potential HV controllers in my boats in 2018.

I have tried a set of YEP 180HV on a twin and will never use them again.

[Fluid]

This one?

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?53282-First-run-with-my-6s-rigger-and-NEU-1527&highlight=



.

[RaceMechaniX]

I have tried a set of YEP 180HV on a twin and will never use them again.

Care to elaborate Randy? What motors did you run? I would prefer to save a nice hull from a smelly mess if I can avoid it.

I use ducted fans as load dyno's for testing combinations. The smaller one is a Schueleber DS-86-HDS ducted fan mounted on some plywood. Allows me to load the motor at decent RPM's for extended periods to see if controllers have any issues. I ran the YEP and a 2250 for 4 and a half minutes at about 75% and everything was only warm. DC amp draw was around 125A.

The larger one is a 160mm I think and uses a Lehner 30 series motor which provides plenty of load not to mention tornado level wind speeds in my shop.

155499155500155501

[rayzerdesigns]

So just to theorize.. I put a 280 on my limited mono today.. it didn’t cut off.. but when I pulled the data said it was pulling 395 amps.. come on!!

[RaceMechaniX]

That's phase current, not DC current. It's also the peak value of the AC wave form I believe. So 395Apeak =279Arms.
What was the DC current?

[StevenBryant]

This one?

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?53282-First-run-with-my-6s-rigger-and-NEU-1527&highlight=



.

Yes fluid that is correct.


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[RandyatBBY]

Care to elaborate Randy? What motors did you run? I would prefer to save a nice hull from a smelly mess if I can avoid it.

155499155500155501
Hear is the thread of the build. I still have the ESC. they look fine. Actually I was drawn to them becuse of the size of the fets. they look a lot like a Schultz I had big hopes for the Yep 180.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?48979-BBY-Central-RC-Marine-53-build&highlight=Central+marine

[RandyatBBY]

That's phase current, not DC current. It's also the peak value of the AC wave form I believe. So 395Apeak =279Arms.
What was the DC current?

So how to you work the math when you read the phase current top get dc current? I am spiking 900 amps some times with my 4S setups and it was hard for me to belive. That setup is a Neu 1530 .5Y, MGM 400-63, 4S3P 3300maH cells 65C/130C, ABC 1814, 11 pound 34 inch sport hydro. This hydro runs around 67MPH to 70MPH. I onlu have problem on the launch getting up to speed once it is at full speed it is OK from there on.

This is the boat. I have ran the same esc in this boat for going on three seasons. The only better ESC IMO is the 40.160
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/ygBkDT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipygBkDTj)

[RandyatBBY]

I have forgotten the Yep were 120 not 180 I just read that.

[Doug Smock]

Hey fellas, Tomas is getting registered so he can post.

[photohoward1]

Randy. I am running a Dual 300 Flyer in a Twin Cat. Plett Motors. The Big 370BM/40/A1/S..X457 props. All good so far.

[RandyatBBY]

Randy. I am running a Dual 300 Flyer in a Twin Cat. Plett Motors. The Big 370BM/40/A1/S..X457 props. All good so far.

Thanks Howard I do not get around much any more. I have great memories of racing you years ago. I am glad I went to every race I ever did. (good and bad) I am not familiar with the Plett brushless motor do you have any comparison pictures?

It is good to hear about the Filer ESC, I have seen them work and then stop . I have never owned one.

[triton]

Randy. I am running a Dual 300 Flyer in a Twin Cat. Plett Motors. The Big 370BM/40/A1/S..X457 props. All good so far.

I was running too with a singe 300A Flyer. It was good until 12s. Then the capacitors leads burned.But that was a bit overloaded.....
But before we burned 5-6 pcs. 250-400A Flyer. The Flyer contact Cathy very helpful and she provided me some spare parts free for repair.

[photohoward1]

10s Motor. Ran these in our 1/8 scales.

http://plettenberg-motors.com/estore/index.php/inrunner-hp-370bm50-c-3000_349
155512

[T.S.Davis]

That's one of the few on the IMPBA motor list for scale. Pretty rare bird there. Aren't those 8 pole Howard? I remember you fighting this to run on a Schulze.

[T.S.Davis]

Found it. 8 pole. Low kv but you didn't loosed any rpm under load with them being 8 poles.

[RaceMechaniX]

So how to you work the math when you read the phase current top get dc current? I am spiking 900 amps some times with my 4S setups and it was hard for me to belive. That setup is a Neu 1530 .5Y, MGM 400-63, 4S3P 3300maH cells 65C/130C, ABC 1814, 11 pound 34 inch sport hydro. This hydro runs around 67MPH to 70MPH. I onlu have problem on the launch getting up to speed once it is at full speed it is OK from there on.

This is the boat. I have ran the same esc in this boat for going on three seasons. The only better ESC IMO is the 40.160
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/ygBkDT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipygBkDTj)

Hey Randy, Thanks for the link on the build. I was also attracted to the YEP because it has a similar design as the 40.160 and YGE controllers. However it is missing the copper clad core which is what makes the old Schulze so good.

I am not too surprised about the 900A phase currents with a 1530 0.5Y. Those are huge amperage motors and at 11 lbs that's a lot of weight to push around.
The MGM's log input current and phase current. It's best to download the data and open in excel. You can then plot the current over the run.
Here is a screenshot my one of my logs. Column D, shows the input current. Column Y, not shown in the pic is the phase current.

155523

[Peter A]

I have both the YEP 120 and 180 esc's, as yet unused. I plan to use (either one of) them in an offshore endurance boat, so average current draws should be less than 50A on 10S. What bothers me the most with these esc's is the minimal amount of cooling, just a brass tube down each side. Would it be a good idea to make up some cooling plates to put on top of the fets, similar to the old T-120 style?

[RaceMechaniX]

Peter,

Most FET's that we see in use for hobby speed controllers transfer their internal heat through the solder pad on the bottom. The PCB's will have 2 or more layers, 4 is pretty typical with 105um copper traces in middle layer and 70um on the top and bottom. Thermal via's carry both the current and heat. Ideally the PCB is only populated on one side so the chill plate can be directly underneath the switches. However, this would double the PCB area making the controller quite a bit bigger.

Schulze used a 1mm copper clad core which is very expensive to produce but it allowed the center row of FET's to get their heat out to the edges.
This picture clearly shows the copper core.155533

Schulze switched to a more traditional FR4 board and this greatly decreased their performance even through the switches were newer. However, the board could not remove the heat.

Fun fact, each switch dissipates about 20W of heat. So on ESC's like the YEP180HV with 30 switches, that is 600W of heat the controller is trying to get rid of.

Some of us do add cooling plates top and bottom to remove heat, but it is a band aid.

[Peter A]

Thanks Tyler
The YEP's were on special at HobbyKing so I grabbed them as they should suit the application. I will probably use the 180 as it should not need to work as hard with the low current draw, however it will be doing runs of 20 mins +, so heat build up may still be an issue and need extra cooling. I will only know when I get to testing next year. The motor is a TP 4060 580kv and it is all going into a HK Osprey.

[photohoward1]

Found it. 8 pole. Low kv but you didn't loosed any rpm under load with them being 8 poles.

Worked pretty well on a Schulze. Low KV? I think it’s about 900 per volt hard to read the figures they give you wacky statistics to figure it out. Ran those on x450 maybe 452 back in the day. 60mph. I think Alan ran his on a 447/3. In that Muck Hull. Couple Canadians still running them too. They sound like turbines.


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[Tomas_MGM-CONTROLLERS]

Hello guys,

My name is Tomas and I work at MGM CONTROLLERS. Doug contacted me through our Facebook page. Our support guy Martin read this forum and you can see his response below.

The RaceMechaniX seems to know all the stuff. We recommend high quality Lehner motors, which work very well with our MGM controllers. Some other motors may create high current peaks, especially on higher voltage, for example on 12s batteries.

There is no issue with D or Y connection of motors, this connection just influence the motor KV. If the motor kv is too high on given voltage (usually with D connection), then the current peaks might get too high. The controller will try to protect itself by limiting the power or even by cut-off, if currents are extreme.

The motor TP 5660 7D is suitable for voltage up to 44V according to manufacturer, but your 12s battery has about 50.4V, when fully charged, so that is too much for this motor. So it is important to respect the max. allowed voltage for given motor.
There are more ways how to solve the issues with limiting the high current peaks. In this case the most efficient solution is lowering the voltage.

You can also use propeller with smaller diameter or lower pitch to reduce the load on the motor.

It is important to set correct parameter settings in the controller software, especially set parameters P52: Motor timing to about 10-15 degrees for TP, Castle, NEU motors, P16: acceleration to 2.0 sec. or more, P51: Motor PWM frequency to 8kHz, P21: Freewheel to Yes.

I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me here or at info@mgm-controllers.com.

[triton]

Hello Tomas

I thing MGM made high quality and highly protected controllers. We chose this ESC therefore.
But we have the same problem with other setup in other boats with MGM. And there is no over voltage. With leopard 5692 3d 7s the same situation.
But there is no problem with overloaded Lehner.
So I think it's a bit a communication problem.
If you would have advised me when I ordered the controllers there is no this topic
"We recommend high quality Lehner motors, which work very well with our MGM controllers. Some other motors may create high current peaks"
Otherwise we think your product one of the best in this area and we keep with MGM, therefore I ordered the new lehners:)

Regards Peter

[T.S.Davis]

Alright. Someone has to say it.

Lehner are excellent motors. The quality is absolutely second to none. They are literally a work of art in my opinion. I still have one left.

That said, I haven't raced one since 2009. The problem with the Lehner is that they haven't evolved. Every other manufacturer has 4 plus pole options. You can get TP motors with 6 poles. 2 pole is great if you're going to just go straight. You don't need the torque for that. Boats that oval race need torque. Acceleration is massive and happens about every 6 seconds. None of my oval records were set with 2 pole motors.

[StevenBryant]

I run Lehner motors and MGM 280 and 250 controllers on 6s setups they are awesome, i also run NEU 1527 motors and with MGM speedo's i've had many issues even with the correct setting. There has to be a problem between MGM and NEU/TP/Castle motors because so many people are suffering from issues.

[T.S.Davis]

Those are all 4 pole motors.

[triton]

Those are all 4 pole motors.

TP 6 pole

[RaceMechaniX]

Lehner's work just fine for oval racing, they do prefer to be run at higher speeds compared to the 4/6-poles or you have to use the next size larger can. For some boats this is fine and for others the 4 or 6-poles work better. The biggest issue is the LMT's are very expensive and most of us simply cannot afford LMT's for every boat. Our challenge is there are a number of very good high performance multi pole motors like the TP's that are 1/3 the cost compared to the LMT's, however there is no good controller solution for the 4-pole motors besides the converted castle ICE controllers. Especially for the HV applications.

@ Tomas, would it help if we are are sending you several 4/6-pole motors that we commonly use for you to validate the ESC parameters with? I would be willing to send you the ducted fan dyno I have with a TP4070 motor and even include the 40063 and 25063 I use.

-Tyler

[photohoward1]

Alright. Someone has to say it.

Lehner are excellent motors. The quality is absolutely second to none. They are literally a work of art in my opinion. I still have one left.

That said, I haven't raced one since 2009. The problem with the Lehner is that they haven't evolved. Every other manufacturer has 4 plus pole options. You can get TP motors with 6 poles. 2 pole is great if you're going to just go straight. You don't need the torque for that. Boats that oval race need torque. Acceleration is massive and happens about every 6 seconds. None of my oval records were set with 2 pole motors.

Have to disagree. I run Mostly LMT. We could drag race Terry. I have always said LMT were easier on controllers. Has anyone really done a torque comparison? You got the oval records because you guys in MI. Practice running ovals all the time. Your good at it.

[Doug Smock]

@ Tomas, would it help if we are are sending you several 4/6-pole motors that we commonly use for you to validate the ESC parameters with? I would be willing to send you the ducted fan dyno I have with a TP4070 motor and even include the 40063 and 25063 I use.

-Tyler

Nice, thanks Tyler

[RaceMechaniX]

Have to disagree. I run Mostly LMT. We could drag race Terry. I have always said LMT were easier on controllers. Has anyone really done a torque comparison? You got the oval records because you guys in MI. Practice running ovals all the time. Your good at it.

Yes, I have compared both. The torque levels on LMT's are comparable to most 4-pole motors with similar sizes. However it takes more current to get the same torque. The LMT's are an ironless design meaning they do not have stator teeth. LMT's form the copper coils into loops and overmold with epoxy to set them in the correct positions. The benefit is more copper which can subsequently push more current. It does come as a penalty, but this is also one of the big reasons you can push a Lehner very hard for short periods.

Thermal limitations prevent the LMT's from sustaining the very high torque levels for long periods.

So LMT's will provide equal torque compared to a 4-pole, however they do it not as efficiently as a 4-pole.

The reason LMT's are easier on controllers is due to their near ideal waveform characteristics. i.e. the 2-pole produces a nice sinusoid waveform when the magnet assembly has a uniform field. 4-poles typically do not have as nice of a BMEF waveform which leads to inefficiencies.
Also, electrically speaking the LMT's run at half the speed of a 4-pole motor. Decreasing the switching events reduced the switching losses in the controller and hence reduces the heat from losses.
From the controllers perspective, a TP running at 25kRPM looks the same as an LMT running at 50kRPM.
This is another reason why it is hard to use 4 and 6 pole motors for high RPM set-ups like SAW's as the electrical switching frequency is high which increases losses.

[T.S.Davis]

Lehner's work just fine for oval racing,

I suppose but if you look at the records for both IMPBA and NAMBA you will find very few 2 pole motors setting records. There are zero 2 pole oval records in IMPBA. Only straight line records.

[RaceMechaniX]

I still hold 3 2-lap records with LMT motors in NAMBA and 1 in IMPBA (1/4 mile Q hydro). Looking through the non-SAW records I am the only person running LMT's.

I guess I have some more work to do.........

[photohoward1]

I wanted to say what Tyler said but he stated it so much more......intelligently?


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[Tomas_MGM-CONTROLLERS]

Thank you RaceMechaniX for detailed technical explanation.

It is correct the Lehner motor inrunners doesn't provide high torque right from the beginning during acceleration.
They need to achieve high rpm at first and then they provide high torque as well. These 2-pole motors will achieve high RPM quickly.
So these motors are the most efficient, when they achieve high rpm like most inrunners.

MGM CONTROLLERS ESCs can handle up to 250k RPM with 2 pole motors, 125k RPM with 4-pole motors, etc.
So there is enough potential to run multi-pole motors at high RPM.
Therefore MGM controllers won't get overheated because of achieving the limit of electrical switching frequency. The limit is high enough.

We still think there is no problem running motors with many poles with our ESCs.
The real problem is running the motor at higher voltage and higher load than they can really handle.

If you overload the motor by combination of related variables (high voltage, large propeller, heavy boat, quick throttle changes, aggressive parameter settings, raising temperature, etc.), then it will create high current peaks (phase currents).
Unfortunately, no available controller will handle that because currents will eventually become too extreme, even before achieving mechanical rpm limits of motor. This can also lead to overload and damage of your batteries.

There is difference between voltage, which a motor can handle without load and voltage, which a motor can really withstand under given load.

Yes, the motor can usually survive this overvoltage and mechanical overload by large propeller, etc., because it is more simple and sturdy component than speed controller. So the motor can be for example just demagnetised after some time.

In more extreme case high currents will cause temperature to raise too high, which can additionally damage insulation of motor windings or cables. And it will destroy the motor and consequently also the controller.
So yes, you can run your motor at the edge of its specifications and rating, but then you need to be prepared for possible consequences.

Somebody says that Lehner motors did not evolved enough over years compared to other manufacturers. There are improvements and development of course, but important is that these motors work as expected according to their specifications.

Some other manufacturers did evolve their motor specifications, but probably only on the paper. Otherwise we would not have to solve many issues caused by using too high voltage and mechanical overload.

It is good idea to provide us with motor or ducted fan, That would be really great. We can record history and obtain results regarding different motors from testing. This would also verify the specifications of motors.


In the end, I would not worry about using a 6-pole motor with our controllers. Even 20-pole motor like Lehner Torqstar can work well. Many customers are using these motors in surf boards, boats, airplanes, etc.
Everything is just a matter of right combination of components and settings.

[Fluid]

I really appreciate Tomas’ input here, and I have a few questions. Why can the (relatively) cheap Castle controllers handle these ‘high current peaks’ without shutting down or burning up? (Their big Achilles heel is getting wet.) And why do MGM controllers seem to log much higher peak current than Castles do with the same setups? Thanks!


.

[RandyatBBY]

I still hold 3 2-lap records with LMT motors in NAMBA and 1 in IMPBA (1/4 mile Q hydro). Looking through the non-SAW records I am the only person running LMT's.

I guess I have some more work to do.........

My 1971 Miss Budweiser runs a LMT 2030..... when I can find some one to run with.

To hit 70+MPH with a oval P Sport what motor and prop would you recommend?

[RaceMechaniX]

I really appreciate Tomas’ input here, and I have a few questions. Why can the (relatively) cheap Castle controllers handle these ‘high current peaks’ without shutting down or burning up? (Their big Achilles heel is getting wet.) And why do MGM controllers seem to log much higher peak current than Castles do with the same setups? Thanks!


.

Jay, Just to clarify the MGM's are likely logging the same DC currents as the Castles and this what most people look at. The current limiting in the MGM's is due to phase current limiting. The MGM controllers are either predicting or measuring the phase current and logging this data in addition to the DC current. The Castles can handle it because they are not protecting for it, nor do they report it in the logging. Castle's are only looking at the DC current for their watchdog mechanism and likely the temperature sensor. I do not believe Castle have implemented more elaborate watchdog mechanisms that predict FET temperatures with respect to time and current like MGM does. And this is why they fail catastrophically.

Phase currents are a lot more complex than DC input current. You can have very high phase currents and low DC input currents.

[RaceMechaniX]

My 1971 Miss Budweiser runs a LMT 2030..... when I can find some one to run with.
To hit 70+MPH with a oval P Sport what motor and prop would you recommend?

Randy, I assume you a have a typo for the 2030.

For P-sport, I run a Phil Thomas Stealth on 4S2P with a 1950/5 and a X440/3. It will run 72-74 although it is completely undriveable.

155540

[RaceMechaniX]

Thank you RaceMechaniX for detailed technical explanation.

It is correct the Lehner motor inrunners doesn't provide high torque right from the beginning during acceleration.
They need to achieve high rpm at first and then they provide high torque as well. These 2-pole motors will achieve high RPM quickly.
So these motors are the most efficient, when they achieve high rpm like most inrunners.

MGM CONTROLLERS ESCs can handle up to 250k RPM with 2 pole motors, 125k RPM with 4-pole motors, etc.
So there is enough potential to run multi-pole motors at high RPM.
Therefore MGM controllers won't get overheated because of achieving the limit of electrical switching frequency. The limit is high enough.

We still think there is no problem running motors with many poles with our ESCs.
The real problem is running the motor at higher voltage and higher load than they can really handle.

If you overload the motor by combination of related variables (high voltage, large propeller, heavy boat, quick throttle changes, aggressive parameter settings, raising temperature, etc.), then it will create high current peaks (phase currents).
Unfortunately, no available controller will handle that because currents will eventually become too extreme, even before achieving mechanical rpm limits of motor. This can also lead to overload and damage of your batteries.

There is difference between voltage, which a motor can handle without load and voltage, which a motor can really withstand under given load.

Yes, the motor can usually survive this overvoltage and mechanical overload by large propeller, etc., because it is more simple and sturdy component than speed controller. So the motor can be for example just demagnetised after some time.

In more extreme case high currents will cause temperature to raise too high, which can additionally damage insulation of motor windings or cables. And it will destroy the motor and consequently also the controller.
So yes, you can run your motor at the edge of its specifications and rating, but then you need to be prepared for possible consequences.

Somebody says that Lehner motors did not evolved enough over years compared to other manufacturers. There are improvements and development of course, but important is that these motors work as expected according to their specifications.

Some other manufacturers did evolve their motor specifications, but probably only on the paper. Otherwise we would not have to solve many issues caused by using too high voltage and mechanical overload.

It is good idea to provide us with motor or ducted fan, That would be really great. We can record history and obtain results regarding different motors from testing. This would also verify the specifications of motors.


In the end, I would not worry about using a 6-pole motor with our controllers. Even 20-pole motor like Lehner Torqstar can work well. Many customers are using these motors in surf boards, boats, airplanes, etc.
Everything is just a matter of right combination of components and settings.

Tomas,

I will coordinate with you to ship the set-up to you along with the motors.

Tyler

[T.S.Davis]

Phase currents are a lot more complex than DC input current. You can have very high phase currents and low DC input currents.

Doesn't really clarify what Jay is asking. For me at least it doesn't.

A known setup running on a 200 amp cheep speedo works where as it burns a 280 amp MGM into a crispy critter. How can this be? A bit less subtle than Jay's version but the question still stands.

How do the phase currents relate to the amp rating on the speed controllers? Some had for instance setups running on something as cheap and simple as a Seaking 180. They decided to step up to higher quality controller. So they opt for the 280 thinking nice cushion. Only to find it doesn't work at best and burns to a crisp at worst. Is the "rating" 280 amp phase current or or 280 amp DC input current?

If the rating is a DC input current then why when we read the the data log are we being given phase currents? It doesn't mean what we think it does. No other data logger does this. Castle, Swordfish, even the Eagle tree tells us phase current. If the log actually shows DC input current on the log to be over 1000amps........how is it possible that a cheesy Seaking 180 can run a setup that a high quality MGM rated for an additional 100 amps can not?

[jaike5]

MGM only plays well with A,B, motors. Does not play well with C,D,E,F,G motors. and over propping. The manufacturer must stipulate this, other wise your dropping 2k and still don't what motor this thing likes. That's what I'm getting out of all this great info put forth.
Cheers, Jay.

[RaceMechaniX]

Terry,

Castle has developed a very good control strategy for the TP/Neu motors likely as a result of the close relationship with Steve Neu. Recall that most of the Castle motor design was from a license agreement with Neu Motors. Similar story with MGM who is well paired with Lehner thanks to their good relationship. MGM is a large dealer of LMT motors and pairs their controllers with LMT motors for various applications like the Losi 5B conversion and the TorqueStar outrunner for planes.

MGM logs DC input current, Peak current and Pulse current. DC current is the average battery current, peak current is the current flowing through the phases and pulse current is the calculated peak current value. I found a current definition in the MGM manual:

155571
155572


Castle only logs DC input current. Castles are not using phase current as a watchdog safety to pull back the current (at least that I know of). Don't just look at the pop up graph MGM supplies, download the .csv file and open in excel to check all the data. There you will see DC current and AC phase current.

To try and answer why the two currents are different: AC phase current is what produces the torque in the motor and is mostly independent of RPM. DC current is proportional to the duty cycle you are asking for and the speed of the motor. If you maintain a certain torque in the motor, but increase speed the power (DC current) goes up. AC phase current generates the torque, but is often clipped as speed increases to reduce the DC current. Otherwise your power would go through the roof. This clipping point is often known as the knee point in a motor torque curve where the control strategy switches from constant torque to constant power.

They look like this: 155566


At low duty cycles, you can have high peak phase currents, but low DC currents. At high duty cycles you can see both high DC and AC current.

The best answer I can give is the two companies use different PWM strategies and different free-wheeling controls. The MGM I believe is active free-wheeling and I know the Castle's are passive free-wheeling. Better explanation here: https://youtu.be/uqzOQGiwGnE The PWM strategies have a significant effect on phase currents as well as the losses in the board.
How many people have actually burned up an MGM controller? I know about burning up motors, but what about the actual controller? I believe this is pretty rare certainly compared to Castles and others. Castles Achilles heel is poor cooling and as many of use are aware they burn up if you can't cool them enough. Several of us have pushed Castles over 450A thanks to improved cooling.

Most data loggers are measuring DC current only. This includes the Castles, Eagle Tree's, SF's, etc. I don't believe MGM is physically measuring the phase currents on the hobby level controllers, but calculating it with the voltage drop across the FET's and the temperature of the FET's.


If you want to learn more have a look at this thread on Helifreak comparing YGE and the Castle Creations 160HV https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=443322

Here are two great youtube video's comparing the Castle 160HV and Kosmik200HV:

Full Throttle: https://youtu.be/z7jewAN1dTw

Partial throttle: https://youtu.be/AKN18ZTqoag

A FET's current rating is advertised as an AC current rating. The rating is typically made a 25C and under ideal cooling conditions. The current rating falls off quickly as the die temperature in the FET increases. Hence we need paralleling of FET's to achieve a more realistic under load rating.

There is no way every manufacture could say which motors don't work which is why you come to a forum to ask. All the manufactures can do is recommend good pairings which are known to work.

Final comment: All the amp ratings we see in the hobby business are BS. Just like the C ratings on batteries.

[T.S.Davis]

My take on these at this point is to run a Lehner for which they were designed or don't run them.

I don't know what to believe on any controller ratings to be honest.

The Seaking 180 Version 2 was a beast. Way under rated. Of ciurse they ruined it. The V3 was a POS.

The Mamba XLX with some decent cooling we yanked 330 amps from on the oval. That was the motor that burned my 280 to a crisp with less prop on it BTW. The log said I was pulling over 1000 amps. Sigh.

The MGM I tried to count in my head just now. Our club has or has had at least 10 of them now. One of them runs reliably. That one can't be adjusted in any way. So maybe $4000+ US worth of paper weights. Most of our guys refuse to put them in their boats. They won't finish.

Sorry to be so negative Tyler but when you take a leap of faith, endorse a product, and then realize you've led your guys down an expensive path it's very frustrating.

[RaceMechaniX]

Understood Terry,

The honest fact is boaters are the most abusive of speed controls in the entire hobby. I can't think of any other model type that can continuously ask for maximum power as long as we can.
Consider that all model controllers are rated for peak currents of only several seconds and continuous current is half the rated current. Than a MGM28026 is good for 140A DC continuous.
MGM has two lines of motor controllers, one for hobbyists and another for industrial use. The ratings for the industrial line are half of what the hobby grade is.

We got lucky with the T180V2 and the last version of the Hydra ICE or the current ICE controllers with appropriate cooling. The old Schulze is still the most underrated controller we have seen.

If you want to be competitive and finish we all need reliable set-ups. Run an MGM with a Lehner or a TP/Neu/Leopard with a converted Castle.

This is what a Castle needs to look like to have adequate cooling.
155577155578155579

[RandyatBBY]

Randy, I assume you a have a typo for the 2030.

For P-sport, I run a Phil Thomas Stealth on 4S2P with a 1950/5 and a X440/3. It will run 72-74 although it is completely undriveable.

155540

The LTM motor is a 3040 sorry sucks having 69 year old memory, lol

I will have to look for a 1950/5 and save up for it.

Tyler what controller do you think is the best for my 4S setup?

[RaceMechaniX]

Randy,
I think you are running a heavier boat than I am so a 1950 is not going push a 10lb+ boat. I would look at a 2240 or 2250 if you want a LMT motor. 1900-2200kv range. Otherwise I would suggest a TP4060 in the same kv range. The LMT motors will work well with the MGM28026/25035 or a Castle ICE 200 converted. The TP motor will work good with the Castle.

-Tyler

[RandyatBBY]

Randy,
I think you are running a heavier boat than I am so a 1950 is not going push a 10lb+ boat. I would look at a 2240 or 2250 if you want a LMT motor. 1900-2200kv range. Otherwise I would suggest a TP4060 in the same kv range. The LMT motors will work well with the MGM28026/25035 or a Castle ICE 200 converted. The TP motor will work good with the Castle.

-Tyler

Ya that is correct a 11 pound boat. Where is the best/cheapest to get a LTM? I do not have any Castle's working any more other than Monster 2's for speck or P LTD. I can not find the Castle ICE 200 is it discontinued?

[Fluid]

The Castle ICE has been discontinued for several years. Today the EDGE is its replacement and reportedly works as well. I’ve been running modified ICE controllers for years, haven’t burned one up for a long time since I started adding a few caps. Even setting SAW records failed to burn one.



.

[RandyatBBY]

The Castle ICE has been discontinued for several years. Today the EDGE is its replacement and reportedly works as well. I’ve been running modified ICE controllers for years, haven’t burned one up for a long time since I started adding a few caps. Even setting SAW records failed to burn one.



.

I only found a PHX Edge 160 HV 50V 160 AMP ESC is it strong enough for a hot 4S setup?

[Fluid]

This is hijacking the thread so I’m stopping after this post.

Randy, this is the EDGE I’d use for a 4S boat. The ICE was rated at 200 amps in planes, and 240 amps with watercooling. A watercooled EDGE should be plenty.

http://www.castlecreations.com/en/phoenix-edge-lite-2/phoenix-edge-lite-200-esc-010-0109-00

[RandyatBBY]

This is hijacking the thread so I’m stopping after this post.

Randy, this is the EDGE I’d use for a 4S boat. The ICE was rated at 200 amps in planes, and 240 amps with watercooling. A watercooled EDGE should be plenty.

http://www.castlecreations.com/en/phoenix-edge/phoenix-edge-200-esc-010-0098-00

.

Thanks I can only get this ESC from CC. Tower and GP do not list them.

Sorry Peter for hijacking this thread. So much good info on a general thread.

[T.S.Davis]

Much better than an edge is the Mamba XLX. You can drop it into the case from an old Ice 240 and yer done.

[RaceMechaniX]

Randy, Do not get the HV version! They are not nearly as stout as the LV versions.

Get this one and add water cooling. http://www.castlecreations.com/en/phoenix-edge-lite/phoenix-edge-lite-200-esc-010-0109-00

The benefit of getting the "lite" version is you don't have to clean off the ceramic thermal paste. The "lite" version is already prepped and ready for cooling tubes. Since you are a master silversmith this should be straight forward for you.

Be sure to conformal coat the ESC after you solder or thermal paste the cooling tubes on.

[triton]

Thanks I can only get this ESC from CC. Tower and GP do not list them.

Sorry Peter for hijacking this thread. So much good info on a general thread.

No problem:)
But if I can propose something for the 4S boat, I really like the flier 8s 250 ESC. I have a very good experience with this type. Its very stable and reliable product. I have used it more than 3 years and never had problem. And you can use it on more then the edge without trouble.
One thing you must to do before use to coating the PCB with plastidip.

[srislash]

I just want to thank you guys for this thread. Lots of good reading/learning. And thanks Tyler for all the insights and testing. Also thank you Thomas for getting involved and hopefully this will lead to new developments.
I haven’t jumped to MGM yet but do now have a LMT powered boat together so maybe... soon.
Shawn

[RandyatBBY]

I just want to thank you guys for this thread. Lots of good reading/learning. And thanks Tyler for all the insights and testing. Also thank you Thomas for getting involved and hopefully this will lead to new developments.
I haven’t jumped to MGM yet but do now have a LMT powered boat together so maybe... soon.
Shawn

You hit the nail on the head. Thanks every one for the honest input.

[T.S.Davis]

Tyler, I have another question.

Each of these comes with a trio of resisters. A 100r, 47r, and a 22r. Any idea what these are for or what to do with them?

[triton]

Tyler, I have another question.

Each of these comes with a trio of resisters. A 100r, 47r, and a 22r. Any idea what these are for or what to do with them?

Sorry for answerring
Anti spark resistors

[RaceMechaniX]

They are provided for Anti-spark. The 22 Ohm is for 0-15V, the 47 Ohm is for 15-63V and the 100 Ohm is for 15-120V.

[triton]

Some new info about MGM-TP pair.
I was on the lake two days for testing. That was very cold but must to run:)
So the end of the 2nd. day the setup was stable. The program I think a bit extreme because must to use very high timing 28 degree for the D wind motor!!!!
The max esc temp 34 celsius.
The motor temp was 20.8 celsius.
The p16 acceleration parameter 4s.
The max speed 126km/h what very low....(10S)
I have better experience with same setup with a little lehner 2250/10.
My experience the MGM-Lehner works much better then the MGM-TP or MGM-Serious combo.

[RaceMechaniX]

Have you tried timing below 10Deg?

[photohoward1]

What does everybody or anybody think of auto timing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[triton]

Have you tried timing below 10Deg?

Yes
Tried with 0-3-6-7-8. Always was motor blocking.

[triton]

Some logs
Input / peak current and input voltage.
When I tried with lower timing the input current was much higher like now.
But I think somethings wrong with the batteries but all new turnigy heavy duty 60C.155596

[triton]

more155597

[RaceMechaniX]

Howard, I would only try auto timing with the LMT's.

Triton, I would be careful with the high timing. I am surprised it works, but data does not lie.

Have you tried using low timing and increasing the switching frequency?

-Tyler

[triton]

Howard, I would only try auto timing with the LMT's.

Triton, I would be careful with the high timing. I am surprised it works, but data does not lie.

Have you tried using low timing and increasing the switching frequency?

-Tyler

No.
Tomorrow will try it.
What you think about the battery voltage?

[RaceMechaniX]

The battery voltage is not great, but I assume the batteries were not warm at the beginning of the run.
Towards the end of the run they were improving. It also looks like you were not starting with fully charged cells. 40V instead of 42V for a 10S pack.
Also notice that the current increases towards the end of the run.
The Turnigy HD cells are pretty decent cells by the way.
-Tyler

[dmitry100]

Tyler, I've been thinking of making a similar type of Dyno setup to test ESC's before putting them on the water - know of any cheaper EDF fans that can handle high RPM's and amps that don't cost like $800 ? :)

[RuntheraceAMC]

Triton,

What TP are you running?

[Fluid]

?..What TP are you running?

See post #5.



.

[RaceMechaniX]

Tyler, I've been thinking of making a similar type of Dyno setup to test ESC's before putting them on the water - know of any cheaper EDF fans that can handle high RPM's and amps that don't cost like $800 ? :)

Not any I would trust spinning over 40kRPM.

[Meniscus]

I'm not interested in re-hashing this subject, but I wanted to provide a little perspective and results from the low voltage side of things.

I've probably put in over 300 runs on one of my MGM 280A controllers and over 200 runs on my backup. For a number of years, I have used 6-pole motors (not TP) on 2s setups. Consistently, I run 160A on a D-wind motor up to around 200A, making as many as 6 SAW passes at a time. Running lower timing and a higher switching rate, I haven't run into any issues or current limiting. I have also turned some very large props without issues.

In my case, I am limited by the current limits for the motor, regardless of whether it is an off-the-shelf motor or one that I have hand-wound. Typically, on 2s, my motors have a limit of 2200 watts continuous which puts me pretty close to the 280A limit. However, I hardly ever get to that limit with my setups. To do 280A or so on a 6-pole motor, I would have to turn a 50mm prop which is completely crazy in a 2s setup, in my humble opinion.

I have similar experiences with 6-pole motors running on 4s.

Regarding Tyler's comment about wonder who has really fried MGM controllers, I have cooked only one 280A MGM. The SAW setup was using a LMT motor, but it appears that a couple of the aftermarket caps failed and with the longer wires (4" as I recall) I needed to position the cells in a small 2s sport hydro. I would consider this situation to be operator failure and not an issue of the MGM controller.

With proven reliability, I would say that with proper motor, model and prop matching for the load and RPM, the 280A MGM does very well on lower voltage, even with higher pole inrunner motors. It is clear that all ESCs suffer from time to time with different motors and setups, but it is likely that we are asking more of the motor than what it is able to deliver.

[triton]

Some new info about MGM-TP pair.
I was on the lake two days for testing. That was very cold but must to run:)
So the end of the 2nd. day the setup was stable. The program I think a bit extreme because must to use very high timing 28 degree for the D wind motor!!!!
The max esc temp 34 celsius.
The motor temp was 20.8 celsius.
The p16 acceleration parameter 4s.
The max speed 126km/h what very low....(10S)
I have better experience with same setup with a little lehner 2250/10.
My experience the MGM-Lehner works much better then the MGM-TP or MGM-Serious combo.

The new motors arrived from Lehner. Two for monos and two for the cat.
I thing if we want to take advantage the maximum possibility of MGM controllers Lehner is an optimal choice.
Hope we will run much faster:)

[danthem]

Hi,i am running a lmt 2250/6 in combination with mgm 280 A esc on 6s in a 29" cat hull.
At high rpm`s it seems esc safety feature is kicking in,when i listen to the sound of the motor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1GGZXaBZDo

[RaceMechaniX]

The ESC is probably hitting a temp limit or a phase current limit. You have an almost SAW setup so this is not surprising. Instead of using the MGM data viewer, download the data file and open in Excel. Look for hardware warnings or high phase currents.

[fweasel]

Instead of using the MGM data viewer, download the data file and open in Excel. Look for hardware warnings or high phase currents.

I didn't know you could do that, cool.

[danthem]

The ESC is probably hitting a temp limit or a phase current limit. You have an almost SAW setup so this is not surprising. Instead of using the MGM data viewer, download the data file and open in Excel. Look for hardware warnings or high phase currents.

I did that,3 high current events were logged-have to say I´m only on the light version of the controller.Maybe i could try to run 2x 6s 3000 mah in parallel instead-not too much room for those in that little boat.

Many thanks for the quick reply!

[danthem]

Hi,i recently ran china motors on MGM controllers and had absolutely no issues.

[danthem]

Another 4 pole MBP 4055-2400kv on Mgm280/6s-7degree timing successfully tested...
still some room for improvement,as amp draw was way too high;some other timing settings to be tested.

[ByronDonald]

Hi...in my case I have the USB link, and have tried to program it through there, but when i plug the batteries in only the steering works but the throttle does not. What did you enter for min/max throttle setting in the middle of the left hand bar. I also have a thread at RCM, just getting my question out there. Any chance you could tell me what settings you have written from the PC?

seo toronto (https://egemarketing.ca/)

[danthem]

Sorry for beeing late,the attached pics showing the esc connnected to a lmt 2 pole,was using tactic rx/tx combo that time;throttle settings P6-P8 should not be relevant here.
Important items are P42-P44 and P16-higher values recommended.172939172940

[triton]

After few years of rest Im over a three events with MGM Lehner combo.
The new 3040/7-s works great with 10S lipo and 15 Timing. No any other issue like previously.