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T.S.Davis
02-27-2017, 10:06 AM
This will be applicable to the Michigan Cup also for those planning to attend.

It defines M spec, offshore, and 10th scale as none of those exist in IMPBA.

149913

Doby
02-27-2017, 10:39 AM
I like the 8 lap offshore rule.:buttrock:

longballlumber
02-27-2017, 11:22 AM
Not that I have a horse in the race but, why 1700kv instead of 1800kv limit in 1/10th scale? That rules out the use of a Aquacraft 1800kv motor which was being used previously and people may still may have?

Just curious

TRUCKPULL
02-27-2017, 11:39 AM
Terry

Any word yet from TP on there change of the length of the 3630 Motor??

We know that it is the same motor, they just made the can longer.

Larry

Todd Fleury
02-27-2017, 11:56 AM
Ball,
The 1800kv motor was never approved for 1/10 scale. Only the blue 1700kv motor was approved. That is why we chose to stay within that kv limit

T.S.Davis
02-27-2017, 01:00 PM
Ball,
The 1800kv motor was never approved for 1/10 scale. Only the blue 1700kv motor was approved. That is why we chose to stay within that kv limit

Yep, it relies on a degree of honesty too. We wont be out there KV testing to prove it's right. The class only exists on MMEU water so no worries I think. We'll see how it settles out but that Dynamite1500 is so good in scale I can't see anything working better. Great torque for what are typically boats with a lot of surface to free up.

Larry, I'm pretty sure they ask you now which can you want when you order the TP. Steve, might have the right ones on the shelf too. He knows the deal on them.

BTW, I wouldn't say there was any noticeable advantage to the TP over the Dynamites in Phoenix. That's not to say there wont or can't be. We just didn't find it yet. I know I was less concerned about prop choice over the old 2030 can when running the 1950 TP. Might be some more speed there with some prop work but haven't gotten there yet.

longballlumber
02-27-2017, 01:18 PM
Ball,
The 1800kv motor was never approved for 1/10 scale. Only the blue 1700kv motor was approved. That is why we chose to stay within that kv limit


Yep, it relies on a degree of honesty too. We wont be out there KV testing to prove it's right. The class only exists on MMEU water so no worries I think. We'll see how it settles out but that Dynamite1500 is so good in scale I can't see anything working better. Great torque for what are typically boats with a lot of surface to free up.

Larry, I'm pretty sure they ask you now which can you want when you order the TP. Steve, might have the right ones on the shelf too. He knows the deal on them.

BTW, I wouldn't say there was any noticeable advantage to the TP over the Dynamites in Phoenix. That's not to say there wont or can't be. We just didn't find it yet. I know I was less concerned about prop choice over the old 2030 can when running the 1950 TP. Might be some more speed there with some prop work but haven't gotten there yet.

Ahhhh gotcha. I forgot about that.

jaike5
02-27-2017, 05:24 PM
Will there be any 1/8 scale legislation? Like motor, hull type, prop size. FE T- hydro worked well at the CanAm, of course that leaves the door open for just about anything. We all new it was for FE 1/8th scale.

T.S.Davis
02-28-2017, 10:11 AM
open motors for scale Jay. Flier is done. Just getting the sanction right. Then I'll post it.

T.S.Davis
02-28-2017, 10:50 AM
Sorry. I stand corrected. No 1/8 scale for the cup.

Doby
02-28-2017, 11:13 AM
Sorry. I stand corrected. No 1/8 scale for the cup.

:thumbdown:.......

Todd Fleury
02-28-2017, 12:04 PM
I think what should be done is offer both 1/8 Scale and T FE Scale and go with the class with more sign ups.

T.S.Davis
02-28-2017, 12:23 PM
Nope. Done with it. Let it die off.

Doby
02-28-2017, 01:41 PM
Murderer!

Todd Fleury
02-28-2017, 02:06 PM
So, Jay Moffat brought this to my attention, and I made a mistake. The 1/8 scale motor rules are subject to technical check. It is an MMEU race, and Terry is the CD so he can bend the rules accordingly. This is not a nationals, so the motors do not need to be checked.

TRUCKPULL
02-28-2017, 03:39 PM
Why not just call it S+T Sport hydro??

Larry

Speed810
03-02-2017, 12:02 AM
Sure would like to see the 1/8 scales at the cup race. Even if its just following the IMPBA motor rules. Why not put it out there and see if we get enough signed up.?? As said above if there are others with different setups run a T-Sport. I hate seeing this 1/8 scale just sitting in the garage and not being able to race it. The cup race was the only place that I could race it and now we're going to eliminate it. Can we talk about this?? What is the reason behind eliminating the class? Don't understand......

T.S.Davis
03-02-2017, 07:33 AM
Too much controversy. Not having the debate any more.

There are 4 of these in the district that ever race. Only one is legal. None of those traveling are legal.

Todd Fleury
03-02-2017, 09:27 AM
There are three boats in the club that are legal. All the boats traveling for the cup are legal except for one.

T.S.Davis
03-02-2017, 09:38 AM
None are registered but one and even if they were it is not possible to verify as there is no list of registered boats on planet earth. Compliance to all of the rules can not be verified under any circumstances. It is not possible.

Todd Fleury
03-02-2017, 09:44 AM
Then this issue should have been voted on by the club.

T.S.Davis
03-02-2017, 10:54 AM
Excluding mine that leaves 1 voting member with a scale.

Talk to Tom and Kevin. Maybe they'll ask for count of guys that want to run scale.

TRUCKPULL
03-22-2017, 10:23 PM
About the 62mm X 36mm rule
Do these motors fit the rule?? ( the bearing sticks out 1.5mm out the front of the can, but the can is 36mm X62mm)

http://www.lehner-shop.com/Inrunner/Series-19/1930::37.html
Click on more images to see the*!**measurements.*!**

One of the guys in Florida is running one and blowing the rest of them away, and the rest of the guys in the club are quitting the stock classes because they refuse to spend $300.00 US on a stock class motor.

Maybe a $ limit is in order??
Double price of a TP is $160.00 USD

Larry

T.S.Davis
03-23-2017, 08:35 AM
Yep. Legal. Believe it when I see it.

Again, we will absolutely revisit this at the end of the season to assess exactly this type of thing. If something is killing everyone and not by a little we'll be looking closer.

Really tough to do a dollar limit but we may have no choice at some point. Maybe max MSRP from the source. No sale pricing. If a company really wanted to (say like Neu) they could release a motor just for these classes and set the MSRP as necessary. Then totally own the classes.

Larry, what clubs are running this spec in Florida? I thought they were all NAMBA down there.

T.S.Davis
03-23-2017, 08:41 AM
Lehner Basic XXL fits too. Little cheaper.

I just don't buy that these high zoot motors will provide enough advantage to justify investing in them. You still have to have a boat that travels and turns under 34" in length.

Guys have been putting V8's in Vegas for decades. Fun going straight.

longballlumber
03-23-2017, 11:49 AM
About the 62mm X 36mm rule
Do these motors fit the rule?? ( the bearing sticks out 1.5mm out the front of the can, but the can is 36mm X62mm)

http://www.lehner-shop.com/Inrunner/Series-19/1930::37.html
Click on more images to see the*!**measurements.*!**


One of the guys in Florida is running one and blowing the rest of them away, and the rest of the guys in the club are quitting the stock classes because they refuse to spend $300.00 US on a stock class motor.

Maybe a $ limit is in order??
Double price of a TP is $160.00 USD

Larry

Did you ACTUALLY measure the physical motor or are you assuming it's 62.000000 (or under). I would love to hear what measurement you get with a set of calipers.

Later,
Ball

T.S.Davis
03-23-2017, 12:03 PM
I would think the Lehner would be even less likely to screw around with their lengths. but it's possible. Pretty sure Todd has some in the mail somewhere and I know for sure that Kevin burned one up this past weekend. Wrong wind. I'll have him measure his.

longballlumber
03-23-2017, 12:06 PM
More curiosity than anything... I would hate to see someone pull the trigger on a quality motor and have it be .05mm over the limit. Although, I was looking at those motors too.

T.S.Davis
03-23-2017, 01:29 PM
Yeah, Lehner motors are great motors but they require a different approach.

Kevin was using a TP in his Promarine kitty and just swapped in the Lehner of the same Kv. Same prop. Same everything. Ran 4 laps and baked it. With them being only 2 pole and the kv on the Lehner being rated under load it doesn't surprise me that it wouldn't be a direct swap. We would need either a bit lower kv Lehner or less prop and let it wind out. If you think back to the N2 Sport days (2008 maybe?), I was running a 5000kv Lehner with a tiny little prop.

I "think"..........it's still going to come down to the same thing it always does. The setup and can you drive that setup.

But like we've been saying. Let's put a season on it and see if we're headed the right direction........... or................NOT headed the right direction for that matter. It's going to require that we're all honest about the results we see.

T.S.Davis
03-23-2017, 01:31 PM
If you get it without the cooling fan it's way under the limit.

TRUCKPULL
03-23-2017, 02:36 PM
Terry

The club in Florida that is a NAMBA club that is running the Can Size rule set, the same as your club.
West Florida Model Boat Club
You can find the conversation on their Facebook page.

The person with the boats in question is a distributor for Lehner.

Larry

photohoward1
03-23-2017, 03:07 PM
About the 62mm X 36mm rule
Do these motors fit the rule?? ( the bearing sticks out 1.5mm out the front of the can, but the can is 36mm X62mm)

http://www.lehner-shop.com/Inrunner/Series-19/1930::37.html
Click on more images to see the*!**measurements.*!**

One of the guys in Florida is running one and blowing the rest of them away, and the rest of the guys in the club are quitting the stock classes because they refuse to spend $300.00 US on a stock class motor.

Maybe a $ limit is in order??
Double price of a TP is $160.00 USD

Larry

Do what most other racing organizations do. Unfair advantage just BAN IT! Lose one guy instead of a bunch. or Just some how limit them. less prop or add weight. Most forms of racing penalize somehow when someone has an advantage. I do still want to see it. The TP Motors are pretty good. Set-up and Balance is the key.

HRC
03-23-2017, 04:55 PM
Good point Howard. There seems to always be one or two that make waves (no pun intended) It is our club that Larry made reference to. West Florida Model Boat Club. I have submitted a club rule to consider for LSO class of motor size limited to 36 X 62.2 mm and price cap of $100. This should keep the playing field on an even keel. It would be a shame to see the LSO class die in our club as there are a lot of LSO boat owners here.

dethow
03-23-2017, 11:18 PM
I still feel we should have gone with the 37mm x 61mm limit which would have ruled out the Lehner with a built-in fan.

End of the day... I really hope we don't go down the road of putting a price limit in our rules.

As Terry knows, I am changing out my motors to Neu 1412s. These are supposed to be 36.5mm x 61mm per spec drawings, however per Steve Neu they have been putting the 1412s in a 1415 can which measures 68.6mm long. On special request basis with a quantity of 5 or more order, Steve is willing to get them into the proper can. I ordered some and he actually ended up fitting them into a 56mm long can. These cost $230 each and are available in several different winds which include: 3D/1650kv, 1.5Y/1850kv, and 2.5D/2050kv.

My goal is dependability and longevity. I’m not looking to push the limits of these motors. I want to be competitive with the TPs that are being pushed to their limits without having to worry about spending $80 to replace blown motors 2 or 3 times a season. That's over my 3 boats, not 2 or 3 motors in each boat.
And I do accept that I'm still a newbie and probably blow out more motors then those more experienced with setting up a boat properly. But from my standpoint as a newer guy... I'm sick of spending so much on motors while trying to get my boats competitive. It's frustrating an expensive. I propose that a higher priced motor will actually be the better method for new people to get involved and be competitive without spending hours upon hours at the pond and/or spending more on replacement motors.

With that said... I know their will be some that want to push and limits. I just hope they don't ruin it for those of use who want to spend the money for dependability.

T.S.Davis
03-24-2017, 10:29 AM
You know what's odd to me? I've had more trouble with my open P setups this past year than I have with my old limited boats. 2 broken or battered 1527. Go figure. Very few failures for Ty and I in limited. I baked a TP 2070 in AZ but that was because I forgot that it was the 2070 in the boat. I was supposed to swap it out for the 1950 and forgot. Too much going on. Then I prop'd up like I had a 1950 and fr'shizzled it.

I'm really anxious to see all these motors running together in truth.
We have.......
TP's of various winds
Neu's of various winds
Lehners of various winds.
AQ 2030's
AQ1800's
PB 1500's

That 1500 is still a beast of a motor by the way. We raced some in AZ. The 1500's were every bit as fast as our TP motors and in some cases faster. Ray's Whip is crazy fast.

The Lehner is a killer motor but there is a reason some of us went to Neu back in 2008 or so for heat racing. There is no way around the torque factor on the small motors. When you get into the giant 30 series motors with lots of rotating mass it's a bit different. Again, we'll see.

I have to remember to put together a spreadsheet for our club races to see what's winning. I could keep track of each heat.

macomb
03-27-2017, 07:01 PM
Lehner 1930

longballlumber
03-27-2017, 08:52 PM
Lehner 1930


Can I see your ISO quality audit paperwork certifying your calipers as an acceptable measuring device? LOL. JK

Shooter
03-27-2017, 09:02 PM
I'll be running my AQ2030's until they blow! :laugh:

TRUCKPULL
03-27-2017, 10:17 PM
The NAMBA club in Florida just changed there rule set for Spec classes on SUN.
Dia - 36.3mm
Length 61.2mm
For this year max $100.00

Larry

T.S.Davis
03-28-2017, 09:22 AM
Begs some questions Larry...

How many races have they run with the new spec? I mean, its March. How many races can there have been? Is the Lehner winning every heat? Every spec class? Sounded like just LSO. I can't find their race results but I didn't look super hard either. So maybe 2 races. 2 flights maybe x 3 rounds x 2 races is maybe 12 heats. Lehner won them all? So much so that guys are quitting the class over one guy winning?

I read their FB thread a little. Reads like one guy was getting 58 on the GPS and they pulled the plug. 58 down the straight doesn't always equate to wins. Sounds like I'm being ultra critical. I don't mean to be like that. Just seems premature to me from the outside looking in. We'll run it all summer before we pull the plug. We have 5 classes running the size limit to glean information from. Should be 180+ heats without the Cup to gather information from.

I also saw on there where Stancomb was trying desperately to point out that his motor was legal for NAMBA. He likely will meet the production requirements for inclusion but that is just the requirements that allow a CD to deem it legal for a single event. Doesn't make it NAMBA legal. Means "the CD has the discretion to allow the following......." Blahblahblah. That's what the rule was for. Since Dave wrote it and I proposed it I can tell you that was the intent. In case I never mentioned it before. I think we blew it. Hind sight.

So technically for NAMBA, the new Promarine motor would need to be proposed, voted on, and passed to get added to the list. Once that happens it would be accepted as "legal" at every venue. Not just where a CD's allowed it. Sucks but that's the law.....so to speak.

With this new approach he won't have to do any of that horse bleep. Neither will anyone else that spits out a new offering. If it fits it's legal. That's the idea. You've all heard this before. haha

A max MSRP may/might/could well be part of our future on these but I'll reserve judgment on that until we've had more time with it. I really appreciate our gang (and other...gangs?) taking the chance on it both with their efforts and in some cases their wallets. Experimenting with custom wind Neu's, high end Lehners, and a bushel basket of TP winds is pricey experimenting. That part also sucks.

dethow
03-28-2017, 12:23 PM
Besides what Terry went through there...
Were any Neu motors evaluated? Were any Lehner without the built-in fan evaluated?
Why block out other motors because one showed signs of dominance?
First thing they could have done was reduce size limit to 37mm x 61mm to get rid of the Lehner 1930 with built-in fan.
Then if the 36mm x 54mm Lehner 1930 was still showing dominance they could block it with a $250 USD price limit.

But I agree with Terry on needing more racing data. And maybe this person just found the sweet spot for that boat and it'd still dominate with another similar wind motor.

TRUCKPULL
03-28-2017, 01:30 PM
On special request basis with a quantity of 5 or more order, Steve is willing to get them into the proper can. .

David
How does this make it a readily available motor??

If I wanted one motor, I need to buy 5 motors????

Larry

dethow
03-28-2017, 01:48 PM
Larry,
I agree with you on a right now basis.

Steve needs to start putting the 1412 motors in their proper can which is shown within his own spec drawings at 36.5mm x 61.0mm. I think that if more people start requesting him to do that he will probably just start making all 1412s that way.

But I will remind you that there is nothing in the MMEU rule that says it has to be readily available. Nor does it even say it has to be a production motor. One could go ahead and have a complete custom motor with custom wind made as long as it’s in a can no larger thn 37mm x 62mm.

But as of right now I’d recommend going in on a group purchase or we need to convince OSE to get some stock of the 1412s in their proper cans.

TRUCKPULL
03-28-2017, 01:56 PM
I do not think that you are going to get Steven (OSE) to stock something that may be illegal, if a $ limit is put in place.

Larry

T.S.Davis
03-28-2017, 02:27 PM
Whose dollar limit Larry? There isn't one. You guys have already jumped the shark.

Just so there isn't any confusion on this size thing. We don't care if you buy a can from TP and fill it with your own winding. You could dig up an old Aveox 1412/1.5y, chop the sensor wires, saw the can in half, glue it to half of a Hacker can and fill it with saw dust n' boogers. We don't care. 37mmx62mm is legal.

Hmmm Wonder how long an old Aveox 36/30/1.5 is. That could actually work.

T.S.Davis
03-28-2017, 02:29 PM
I do not think that you are going to get Steven (OSE) to stock something that may be illegal, if a $ limit is put in place.

Larry

Pretty sure Dave meant Steve Neu needs to put his 1412's back in 1412 cans.

Darin Jordan
03-28-2017, 03:20 PM
Not my business, but I'll butt in for a moment anyhow...

If you start adding additional CRAP to the rules... list cost limits... availability limits... color of the cans, whatever, you are completely off your rockers and wasting everyone's time. It's pointless, useless, and won't do anything more than simply add clutter and complication to a VERY simple, and VERY effective ruleset...

Think of it this way... there is NOTHING limiting ANYTHING, motor-wise, in ANY OF THE OTHER CLASSES... Nothing... Not size, KV, price, winds, nothing... Number of motors, I suppose, for 2S and, in IMPBA's case, 4S. That's it... and there are people running inexpensive TP motors, and expensive Neu motors... ALL of them being competitive.

This "M-Spec" (P-LTD) size limit is a REAL, viable, tech-able limitation. It's NOT meant to make everyone "even"... it's meant to put a cap on the POWER THAT IS POSSIBLE for the class. It does that perfectly, effectively, and very simply. Furthermore, it's able to be tech'd, plainly, simply, and without any special tools. It provides "parity" by putting a cap on what is possible. For the next season or so, we'll work our way to finding out what that is.

Once that limit is figured out, which basically is now for some of us, it'll be clear, plain, simple, and readily available to all. The cream of the motor crop will rise. People will figure out what to run and how to run it, JUST like they know now, and the class will be able to continue on for YEARS to come, without the need to argue, adjust, or otherwise mess with, JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER CLASSES...

All by taking a simple measurement of the motor can.

All this concern, worry, fear, whatever, is all the same kind of red-herring BS that we got with brushless motors and Lipos... the introduction of which has IMPROVED FE R/C Boating and Boat Racing overall. As this rule-package moves forward, and IF it ever becomes official, perhaps even for BOTH organizations, it will improve P-LTD racing as well. I mean, think about it, WHAT will there be left to bitch about?? Heat shrink? Motor availability? Motor QUALITY? Motor consistency? Can color? WHAT??

Is it going to take adjustment for a season? Yup. Is it going to obsolete your present power systems? Probably not, but maybe over time, to a degree. Do you HAVE to go buy new motors to be competitive?? If you think that, you don't know boating, because I'm certain I can compete against ANYTHING out there with my present Pro Boat/Dynamite 1800/1500KV motors. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand Brushless power systems and props.

As for figuring it all out... Us FE Racers are a friendly lot. If you are confused about what to run, just ask. You'll get your answers. It's pretty much that simple.

OK, I've said it... Rant over... Fire away... :)

T.S.Davis
03-28-2017, 04:05 PM
haha Darin, you left out the switch from Nicd to Nimh. Wasn't going to be fair. "Why, I'll have to replace the batteries for my whole fleet if we allow NiMh" Like Nicd's lasted more than a couple 100 amp heats before they were missmatched junk.

How about brushless motors in N1? That was fun too.

I thought LiPo would be the death of me. Not the tech itself. The hand wringing over it. Guys were really counting their pennies on that one. That's when I was accused of supporting 2P because I was in a suppliers pocket. Fun times. Now we have cells that can be raced hard for multiple seasons. The reality was wayyyyy cheaper. I was buying multiple packs per season of NiMh. ugh. Hind sight makes how long we actually waited seem foolish.

Darin hit on my problem with 1/8 scale too. There are no motor limits or motor lists for any other IMPBA FE class. At all. Period. None. Length - cell count. That's it. Those are the limits in the existing IMPBA classes. Scale is the most difficult to build, the most technically complicated class, and requires the most experience to even contemplate. That class is not for newbies or for the faint of heart. So...............let's limit the tech. Stupid. Let the boats determine how fast they should go. Just like every other class. We don't put a "should go about this fast" to look right on an other classes. Some of those other classes get to obscene speeds so it's not safety. There's no need to mimic nitro. They don't want to run with us if they can help it. Not because they don't like us. Just cuz it's apples to cinder blocks. We have too many advantages. It really isn't fair. ugh.........I'm ranting again. Moving on.........

I would still like to hear how much data went into Florida's decision to drop an MSRP into the mix. We've had almost no race time on these and already the waters are getting murky. Makes the test phase kind of skewed. I was hoping we could all be on the same page for more than two club races.

Darin Jordan
03-28-2017, 04:09 PM
I would still like to hear how much data went into Florida's decision to drop an MSRP into the mix. We've had almost no race time on these and already the waters are getting murky.

SERIOUSLY?? OH GOOD GRIEF! I'd LOVE to hear someone argue in support of THAT, with any REAL data...

Doug Smock
03-28-2017, 05:07 PM
Eight years??, and discussions still going strong on P Limited, spec, whatever, motor rules. Ugggg!
Enough already for me, I'm sick to death of these discussions.:frusty::olleyes::smile: Stick a fork in it!!

It seems that guys won't be happy until they are running "P Speeds" so why not skip the BS and run P?

With the latest :blah: we are having conversations about doing exactly that for 2018. It seems that I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Terry my brother.:hug1: Write your scale proposal and get it in to the office. The BOD meets in June, time is wasting.

photohoward1
03-28-2017, 05:34 PM
I'm glad I made the descission not to race spec 3 years ago. I am going back to the new spec rules this year. I like the size limits. It's what I have always said. I still bet that Lehner is not better than a a TP OR NEU. I watched countless spec boats with UL1 motors or the 1500 or the 1800 or the 2030 just kick but and race down the straights in the high 50s. The racer that spends $300 on a spec motor is a fool. Just race full P. All my opinions and can't wait for Atlanta.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TRUCKPULL
03-28-2017, 05:57 PM
Pretty sure Dave meant Steve Neu needs to put his 1412's back in 1412 cans.

Bottom of post #43

By the way I was only posting what is happening in the Florida club.
They race every two weeks all year round, so I don't know how long they have been running the size limit.

I know at this time I will still be running the 1500,s and the 2030's this year.

Larry

T.S.Davis
03-28-2017, 06:31 PM
Doug, that's not true. Were not trying to run P speeds. We are however trying to fix the mess we made with a list of approved motors that catered to two manufacturers. Yeah, it worked...... Sort of. Limited power. More like limited shelf life. This new approach could/maybe/might hold up once we get it figured out.

I've already been asked to write that scale proposal. I said I would but I'm SO on the fence about whether or not I care enough to bother. There just is no demand for scale. Guys don't run it in NAMBA with no motor list. Guys don't run it in IMPBA with a motor list. So who cares? There might be a 8 heats per year currently. They're all in MI. We need an iron clad rule set for 8 heats?

Doug Smock
03-28-2017, 06:31 PM
Eight years??, and discussions still going strong on P Limited, spec, whatever, motor rules. Ugggg!
Enough already for me, I'm sick to death of these discussions.:frusty::olleyes::smile: Stick a fork in it!!

It seems that guys won't be happy until they are running "P Speeds" so why not skip the BS and run P?

With the latest :blah: we are having conversations about doing exactly that for 2018. It seems that I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Terry my brother.:hug1: Write your scale proposal and get it in to the office. The BOD meets in June, time is wasting.

Just got a call from a friend that saw this post. He called to "pull me back off the ledge". LOL I'm fine fellas, really! :beerchug:

Like Howard, I'm looking forward to Atlanta!

HRC
03-28-2017, 07:09 PM
Comparatively speaking our club here is a small fish in the big pond. About 50% or more of our members are entry level in the hobby with a limited amount of disposable income. Telling someone after they have shelled out $550 for a RTR (LSO) and another $200 - $400 for batteries, charger, NAMBA and club membership dues to here the boat is not NAMBA legal because of the motor don’t set well.

Our decision was based on a budgetary reason only in an attempt to grow the hobby and our club. The guys just want to come out a couple times a month for some friendly competition and fun. As time goes by they will develop the skills and knowledge to compete on a national level.
I do plan on keeping a log for our races as to what boat and the motor used in the boat.

Sorry if I have stirred the pot again on the ongoing motor debate. I am done now.
Dave

Shooter
03-28-2017, 08:56 PM
My opinion: Keep it simple. Spec ONE motor. Something that is reasonable and robust. It instantly evens the play field which is the overall objective. Done deal.

The argument of manufacture favoritism is moot. Even nation wide, we are still a spit in the bucket. There are way more fun runners than us, by far. We won't even show up on their sales radar!

dethow
03-28-2017, 09:05 PM
I do not think that you are going to get Steven (OSE) to stock something that may be illegal, if a $ limit is put in place.

Larry


Pretty sure Dave meant Steve Neu needs to put his 1412's back in 1412 cans.

You are both right. I do think Steve Neu needs to put the 1412 in the can size that is shown in his spec drawing.
And I think Steve Vaccaro (OSE) needs to place an order of 1412s in the proper can size so that they can be available to people.

But Larry, I understand what you are say... that Steve Vaccaro (OSE) probably won't place that order IF a price limit being threatened to be placed on the motors.

Personally, I think this price limit talk is BS. If we want to truly limit the class to make it so a newbie can compete at a small cost then you need to limit prop price and modification and limit hulls to whats currently available off the shelf with no modifications. No more kits and no more bare-hulls that newbies don’t know how to build.
Darin is spot on... I could put a Neu or Lahner motor in any of my boats and he’d probably clean me off the water with one of his Proboat motors. Newbies can’t complete with some of the knowledge that’s out there. And the Neu or Lehner motor in the newbie’s boat isn’t going to change that. But for me… what I’m hoping is that Neu motors may buy me some forgiveness on learning to setup my boats and props. I’m hoping that the quality/durability may allow me to see that a certain prop change slowed me down without burning up my motor in the process. And once I’ve learned more and can compete… I may step back to a cheaper TP.

T.S.Davis
03-28-2017, 09:10 PM
Sorry Dave. I was trying so hard to not be a weeny too. FAIL!.............again. Seems to be a pattern.

You guys are right on. Do what puts butts on the drivers stand. If a dollar cap does that then it does. I'm sure there is a degree of perception too. This is more true for less experienced guys. All they see is that they got passed by somebody with a $300 motor. I could probably put rubber bands in my sons Stealth and it would still be competitive. It's about the time invested in it. It's really respectable but if I put a high zoot motor in there nobody will believe it's fast without the high zoot motor.

I think.............nobody should be required go out and buy a new motor for their brand new 4s boat. These boats are expensive. Especially early on when you don't already have a bunch of gear. The way the NAMBA rules are now, new guy may have to gut his new boat to be legal. Being a newer guy he might not even have soldering skills. No offense to new guys. We have experienced guys I wouldn't let solder for me either.

As it stands, if a new guy shows with a Promarine, a Blackjack, or even an RTR Pursuit at a NAMBA event he has to run full P as he isn't legal for limited. That shouldn't be the case. Those companies also shouldn't have to sacrifice a chicken for their offering to be legal either.

As much as Stancomb and I don't see eye to eye he really has done it the right way. He's tracked down a motor that was in the ball park, is the right size, and then produced the boats with the motor. Credit where credit is due. Not many manufacturers these days give a single crap what racers want. He's done everything he should be doing. Yet, his motor still isn't legal by the book. Someone has to propose it and it still has to get voted in. That's crap IMO.

T.S.Davis
03-28-2017, 09:19 PM
BTW There's a bunch of horse crap in the IMPBA rule book I don't agree with too. It's not exclusive to NAMBA is what I'm saying.

We had good intentions but we just got some things wrong in NAMBA. Same is true for IMPBA. Guys had the best intentions and just missed the mark a tic. Fixable? Probably. I hope someone with some ambition will get right on that.

||||This is where Smock is supposed to read between the lines.||||

It's all you buddy!........no?

Doug Smock
03-28-2017, 09:45 PM
||||This is where Smock is supposed to read between the lines.||||

I need to fix it? Why me? I'm not doing enough for the organization already? :wink: Besides, I'm an idiot, I don't even know what "it" is !!:laugh:

TRUCKPULL
03-28-2017, 09:59 PM
||||This is where Smock is supposed to read between the lines.||||

I need to fix it? Why me? I'm not doing enough for the organization already? :wink: Besides, I'm an idiot, I don't even know what "it" is !!:laugh:

Doug because you have bigger shoulders then Terry.

Larry

dethow
03-28-2017, 10:03 PM
My opinion: Keep it simple. Spec ONE motor. Something that is reasonable and robust. It instantly evens the play field which is the overall objective. Done deal.


If the goal is to even the play field then we would need to limit the prop and hull... prices, availability and modifications as well.
And many issues with "spec one motor". To many to even re-hash.

Doby
03-28-2017, 10:17 PM
||||

Besides, I'm an idiot,

Well, the first step in getting better is admitting the truth to yourself:tongue:

dethow
03-28-2017, 10:18 PM
No matter what we do with this motor issue...
New guys will NEVER be able to walk into a NAMBA or IMPBA club and be able to compete with veterans. And new guys with a limited size Neu or Lehner motor will not compete with a veteran running an AQ, Proboat or TP with same size limit. Because we/they don’t have the boat and prop setup knowledge.

If clubs want more new guys, then clubs need to have classes for off the shelf boats only… with no mods. Like the MMEU SV27 class was. But that class got dated, slow and boring. Clubs need to provide a place where new guys can bring whatever they have and race all in one class with the only limit being no modifications from stock other than prop and battery choice. If they get drawn into the culture, they will then decide if they want to go spend the money to complete in other classes.

IOW... I'm saying everyone should please stop using the newbies as a reason to limit motors and/or costs. Limiting a motor to $100 is not going to bring a newbie in. Some racers are out there spending $65 to $80 on Snowman (Brian Buaas) props. Props are just as important as a motor and we’re basically telling a newbie that they need to go spend as much on a prop as that motor costs. I don’t hear anyone talking about price limits on props. Can’t because you are only handicapping the newbies there. The veterans don’t necessarily need a Brian Buaas prop. They know how to work their own. Letting a newbie go spend $65 to $80 on a prop is what helps them be competitive.

A newbie that really digs the culture and hobby of building and racing… will spend the money. As proven by the 4 most recent new members to MMEU. Myself, Dan, Kevin, and Chris have spent some big dollars over the past 24 months on both new boats and mods.

That's my quarters worth... Well more then the 2 cents I should have been allowed and for that I'm sorry.

Doug Smock
03-28-2017, 10:30 PM
Doug because you have bigger shoulders then Terry.

Larry

Never noticed that. We'll have to get Ken to measure them in Atlanta. :biggrin:


Well, the first step in getting better is admitting the truth to yourself:tongue:

Things are looking up. :stupid:

Doby
03-28-2017, 10:32 PM
Darin hit on my problem with 1/8 scale too. There are no motor limits or motor lists for any other IMPBA FE class. At all. Period. None. Length - cell count. That's it. Those are the limits in the existing IMPBA classes. Scale is the most difficult to build, the most technically complicated class, and requires the most experience to even contemplate. That class is not for newbies or for the faint of heart. So...............let's limit the tech. Stupid. Let the boats determine how fast they should go. Just like every other class. We don't put a "should go about this fast" to look right on an other classes. Some of those other classes get to obscene speeds so it's not safety. .

Exactly...any particular hull will have its speed limits based on its design (or lack thereof)..Still struggling with choosing a motor for my 1/8th....should be no motor limits.

Doby
03-28-2017, 10:34 PM
:stupid:

Me to:stupid:

Darin Jordan
03-29-2017, 10:13 AM
Not sure, and don't frankly care, what the rest of the country, IMPBA, or NAMBA in general, is going to do regarding the topic of P-LTD Power Sytems...

OUR PSFEMBC club, here in the Puget Sound/Seattle area, voted in favor of running the very basic set of P-LTD Motor Rules that I drafted (merely as an example for discussion at the time...), and everyone thus far is fine with those. After a frank and involved discussion at our winter meeting, most of these "fears" were put to rest with reason, logic, and data.

I'm not pushing for a set of National rules on this. I've been asked to submit something; to push it up the chain for a vote, etc. Not going to happen from me. Been there, fought that. It's not worth it to me. 99% of the racing people do is in their OWN CLUBS. As long as our local club rules make sense, that's good enough for me. On the rare occasions where I get the opportunity to travel to an event, which likely will only be the Nationals this year, if I have boats that fit a class, I'll race. If I don't, I'll won't. Simple. Stress-Free as well.

The simple limiting of physical motor dimensions is clear, and makes perfect sense. It's a REAL limit, that doesn't require further discussion. It's ALL-Inclusive, and is completely, totally, and utterly FAIR to all competitors. We don't need KV limits, or cost limits, or weight limits, or color limits, or ONE-Motor limits... This ONE rule update solves it all. If your motor fits physically (Brushless Inrunner design, of course), it races. If your RTR comes with a motor that fits the limits, it races. If your motor is smaller than the limits, it races... If your motor is outside of the dimensions, it doesn't race... Done... NO need for further debate regarding this class, or any updating of the rules, again, ever... Everyone has an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to be competitive.

There is, however, NO GUARANTEE of competitiveness. That's up to YOU, and YOUR efforts, knowledge, and skills. If a guarantee is what people are looking for, then they don't understand racing, and, frankly, aren't looking to "race"...

'MERICA! :usa:


150608

ray schrauwen
03-29-2017, 11:16 AM
Just for curiousity sake, why no outrunners? I know the Suppo ones I like are a mm to large in diameter and shorter than the rules.

Is it because of the slight size difference or other factors.

Btw, I'm all in with a few old gold cans and the more efficient blue cans. Great price on eBay from time to time!

Thanks for all your hard work and the data you shared!

Darin Jordan
03-29-2017, 11:21 AM
Just for curiousity sake, why no outrunners?

I originally had those considered, but after consulting with people way brighter and more successful than me, it was decided that it added too much additional variability. Just not worth the hassle for the very, VERY few who would actually want to have them included. Just not easy to equate them...

Shooter
03-29-2017, 11:26 AM
If the goal is to even the play field then we would need to limit the prop and hull... prices, availability and modifications as well.
And many issues with "spec one motor". To many to even re-hash.

What I meant was to even the playing field regarding the motor. Let the hull design, prop, and set-up be the competitive part. That's what makes it fun. Trying to find the best motor that meets size rules is just one more variable taking away from the 'prop, set-up, and tweaking' that should define the spec class.

I guess I can't talk too much, I only made (2) races last year! :) I can't even vote on the club shirt color! :)

Darin Jordan
03-29-2017, 11:27 AM
I originally had those considered, but after consulting with people way brighter and more successful than me, it was decided that it added too much additional variability. Just not worth the hassle for the very, VERY few who would actually want to have them included. Just not easy to equate them...

For reference, here was the original idea, before it evolved to where it is now. But, if you study motors, you'll see that this doesn't equate the inrunner vs. the outrunner to each other... IN other words, it's not a viable limit. Not Apples to Apples...

150611

T.S.Davis
03-29-2017, 01:43 PM
What I meant was to even the playing field regarding the motor.

That actually IS the idea. There is only so much power that can be transferred from the batteries to the water with a 37x62 in-runner. Sorry Darin, we rounded because the cans were fluctuating all over the place.

If we actually picked one single motor (right down to the model number) it would then require every person interested in what's supposed to be an entry level class to purchase a new motor for their brand new boats if they race. Then, how do you pick one? Straws? The choice would be endless and we would end up with something someone wanted and others didn't. Then you have the 1/8 scale problem. "Oh, I have to run that motor? Never mind. I'll got do something else with my money."

One motor doesn't level the playing field anyway. Batteries and speedo can make a difference. To identical boats. One with better batteries or a more efficient speedo and they're not equal anymore.

Guys need to stop fretting over which motor is best and focus on drive line, straight ride surfaces, edges you can hunt deer with, all these little tiny things add up. 1/8 mph here, 1/8 there and next thing you know you're faster than the guy with the same exact motor. Then learn to drive an oval instead of a peanut. I struggle with that every danged spring. Tight into turn one. Wide at the apex. Lane 6 on the exit. Then compensate until I'm pointed inside the course on the back straight. Now turn left to get back outside the back side entry pin. Have to relearn that every stink'n spring. That's where the racing happens. Not in which motor I picked.

Shooter
03-29-2017, 08:11 PM
If we actually picked one single motor (right down to the model number) it would then require every person interested in what's supposed to be an entry level class to purchase a new motor for their brand new boats if they race. Then, how do you pick one? Straws?

This is the part I didn't think about. Very true. .....but is LSH really entry level? I've always thought of it as the F1 of our hobby!

T.S.Davis
03-29-2017, 11:37 PM
No but limited cat, mono and offshore are. Sort of. They're good classes for newer guys and vets to coexist. Great place to teach and to learn.

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 09:39 AM
Just to disspell a myth that keeps popping back up here... namely that those running P-LTD want "to run at P-Speeds"...

The motor on the bottom in this picture is a 36.3mm x 61.2mm Brushless motor... the largest size that would be allowed in P-LTD, or "M-Spec", as Terry likes to confusingly call it... ( :bash: )

The motor on the top is just the BEGINNING of what you might run in a real P sized boat. It's 40mm by I believe 84mm, which is roughly equivalent to the size of a Neu 1521 or 1527.

Nuff Said... Let's just end that thought right now...

150634

What P-LTD/M-Spec is trying to do is provide a limited performance 4S Class that utilized relatively inexpensive power systems, and readily available hulls, which would include RTR offerings that are in the 27" - 34" range and come with a standard 36mm x 60mm motor.

T.S.Davis
03-30-2017, 10:32 AM
Yep. We rounded up to 37mmx62mm so that hopefully fluctuations in the production of these will still be legal. The PB motor Darin posted is 36.3x61.2. What happens when it's 36.31? Illegal!

I need to fix it? Why me? I'm not doing enough for the organization already? Besides, I'm an idiot, I don't even know what "it" is !!

Because I'm an IMPBA newbie.

My "it" list
Get rid of 1/8 registration (no demand)
Get rid of the 1/8 motor list (no sense)
Allow twins in P. At least for cats at a minimum. (why not again? Nobody knows)
Get rid of the single source requirement for twin setups. (because it's dumb)

If/when this spec thing works we should have a little documentation to back it up. Then maybe do trial run of the rule set. Have the BOD review the idea the right way. Distribute it through the Propwash and such. I think this new approach will hold up where as the old way had a shelf life.

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 10:47 AM
Yep. We rounded up to 37mmx62mm so that hopefully fluctuations in the production of these will still be legal. The PB motor Darin posted is 36.3x61.2. What happens when it's 36.31? Illegal!


I don't work from speculation or fear... I work from logic and data... ;)

150635

dethow
03-30-2017, 11:13 AM
Darin, with all due respect our rounding to 37mm x 62mm has nothing to do with "speculation or fear". It comes from real data which members of our club have seen some variations in actual sizes for same motors. Even Steve Neu says that there will be some minor variations in sizes due to different production dates and machinery setup. Steve also stated that even though his spec drawings for 14xx series motors show the 1412 as 61mm long, he can not guarantee that all made will not exceed 61mm. He said there needs to be at least a 0.5 to 0.75mm tolerance for machining. And by the way... his spec drawing shows the 14xx series motor as having a diameter of 36.5mm while your spread sheet shows 36.3mm. ???
And right now I own 14xx series motors that have a diameter of 36.55mm. Same caliper is measuring a TP3630 at 36.15mm.

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 11:17 AM
And by the way... his spec drawing shows the 14xx series motor as having a diameter of 36.5mm while your spread sheet shows 36.3mm. ???
And right now I own 14xx series motors that have a diameter of 36.55mm. Same caliper is measuring a TP3630 at 36.15mm.

Mine are actual measurements of motors that were sitting on my bench...

It's all "rules-creep" to me... Next thing they'll start making 1412s in a "37mmx62mm" can, and they'll measure 37.1mm, and people will be wanting more "tolerance"...

dethow
03-30-2017, 11:29 AM
Mine are actual measurements of motors that were sitting on my bench...

It's all "rules-creep" to me... Next thing they'll start making 1412s in a "37mmx62mm" can, and they'll measure 37.1mm, and people will be wanting more "tolerance"...

Darin... My measurements are from motors sitting on MY bench as well. And my motors measure 36.55mm.
I guess I will never run in your club because your motors measure 36.3mm and that's the rule. Even though the manufacture's drawing even shows a diameter of 36.5mm.

How does that make sense to cap at what's on YOUR bench which doesn't even match the manufacture specs? And now I've just made you aware that there are real 14xx motors on someone's bench measuring 36.55mm

Darin, you can do what you'd like with your club and set of rules. Just don't appreciate you categorizing our rules as being based on "speculation and fear".
We have two data points that show a Neu 14xx motor is between 36.5mm to 36.55mm and you have your rules set based on one data point at 36.3mm.

And if Neu ever starts making 1412s at 37mm x 62mm then any motor that exceeds that will have to be sent back for exceeding spec drawings and reasonable tolerances.

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 11:39 AM
DWe have two data points that show a Neu 14xx motor is between 36.5mm to 36.55mm and you have your rules set based on one data point at 36.3mm.

And if Neu ever starts making 1412s at 37mm x 62mm then any motor that exceeds that will have to be sent back for exceeding spec drawings and reasonable tolerances.

You are assuming that people were interested in including NEUs in the process when this all started... That was a specific "fear" at the time...

And, don't kid yourself... The only reason these rules go through such broad and wild discussions is because of VAST speculation, and a lot of fear...

Round away... It doesn't matter to me one iota... as long as it's capped...

dethow
03-30-2017, 11:54 AM
We will and we will push for that to be the set rule if there ever is a set rule.
We at MMEU do not want to see someone disqualified from racing because their motor measures 36.55mm. And then have to tell them... "Well, it doesn't match what was on Darin Jordan's bench." We'll go with what manufactures are telling us. Spec sheet shows 36.5mm and manufactures states that there needs to be some tolerances for manufacturing. That just makes sense to us and it's not speculation or fear.

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 12:10 PM
That just makes sense to us and it's not speculation or fear.

It makes sense to me as well, clearly, but then, I've been there from the beginning, when Terry and I were working through this. At THAT time, yes, there was, as with BL motor, Lipos, etc., LOTs of "fear and speculation" going on, driving many to argue. It's what prompted me to do the motor testing in the first place... It's easy to say it makes sense NOW, now that it's in place and making "sense" to people, but I was in the trenches... I have people, some from your area, still thinking I've ruined this hobby, after all. :)

You aren't going to get an argument from me on your 37mm x 62mm spec... whatever. It'll work fine and definitely is inclusive. It just will include motors that others were "fearful" of. Just the reality of it.

Make it happen!

TRUCKPULL
03-30-2017, 12:17 PM
My "it" list
Get rid of 1/8 registration (no demand)
Get rid of the 1/8 motor list (no sense)
Allow twins in P. At least for cats at a minimum. (why not again? Nobody knows)
Get rid of the single source requirement for twin setups. (because it's dumb)

Terry
I must have mist this one:
Single source requirement for twin setups.

Where did you find it?

Allow twins in P. At least for cats at a minimum.
I already sold my "P" Cat because of this rule, I lost well over $500 on it.

Larry

Doby
03-30-2017, 12:30 PM
I'll assume that whatever measuring device each club uses will have a calibration certificate traceable back to a NIST standard. Also, motor measurements need to be made in a climate controlled environment.

Otherwise clubs could actually "control" the motors allowed to run. Some measure fine...others are just a tad over and a big no no.:spy:

Perhaps there should be one IMPBA measurement device (or NAMBA, or God forbid both organizations share one) that is sent around to each club for there use in determining compliance.

But then again, during transport something could happen and the device would have to be re-calibrated to NIST before use. (with supporting documentation of course).

I can just see the legal challenges in court happening in the near future.:scared:

Here are some links to help clear all this up.

https://www.nist.gov/

https://www.ncsli.org/c/f/p12/REG_2012.PRE.558.1664.pdf

http://www.rhopointmetrology.com/metrology-instruments.html

https://www.qualitydigest.com/magazine/1999/feb/article/gauge-use-and-abuse-guide-common-gauge-misuse.html

http://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/6098/Why-Calibrate-an-Instrument.aspx



I'm bored.:olleyes:

dethow
03-30-2017, 12:31 PM
Well Darin, one place we can fully agree is that the Lehner 1930 w/fan shouldn't be allowed which measures 62.0mm long.
At the time of our vote I raised protest that we should go with 61.5mm max to make sure that motor is excluded.

Now we have word that a Florida club place a price cap in order to block that motor.

But it's all good... a couple of our members are going to run them this season and we'll see what happens. I'm just pushing that (if there is an issue) we do not go with a price limit. Just need to pull back the size to 61.5mm and the problem is fixed.

dethow
03-30-2017, 12:35 PM
I'll assume that whatever measuring device each club uses will have a calibration certificate traceable back to a NIST standard. Also, motor measurements need to be made in a climate controlled environment.

Otherwise clubs could actually "control" the motors allowed to run. Some measure fine...others are just a tad over and a big no no.:spy:

Agreed... yet another reason for some tolerance. :hide:

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 12:35 PM
Well Darin, one place we can fully agree is that the Lehner 1930 w/fan shouldn't be allowed which measures 62.0mm long.


That motor doesn't scare me in the least... it's a 2-Pole, and with that fan in there, the rotor/stator are actually shorter... Bring it...

dethow
03-30-2017, 12:47 PM
That motor doesn't scare me in the least... it's a 2-Pole, and with that fan in there, the rotor/stator are actually shorter... Bring it...

I hear you... and I don't have the experience to say. That's why I backed down from my protest quickly... well that and after being verbally assaulted by another member basically telling me to shut up.
We'll see what happens this season. One of our guys has already burned one up after 4 laps of testing.

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 12:51 PM
One of our guys has already burned one up after 4 laps of testing.

Lehners have a VERY narrow "sweet spot", and aren't going to have the forgiveness, or the TORQUE, of a 4-pole or 6-Pole motor. Let'em race! If they win, it won't be the motor's doing...

Doug Smock
03-30-2017, 12:57 PM
Yep. We rounded up to 37mmx62mm so that hopefully fluctuations in the production of these will still be legal. The PB motor Darin posted is 36.3x61.2. What happens when it's 36.31? Illegal!

I need to fix it? Why me? I'm not doing enough for the organization already? Besides, I'm an idiot, I don't even know what "it" is !!

Because I'm an IMPBA newbie.

My "it" list
Get rid of 1/8 registration (no demand)
Get rid of the 1/8 motor list (no sense)
Allow twins in P. At least for cats at a minimum. (why not again? Nobody knows)
Get rid of the single source requirement for twin setups. (because it's dumb)

If/when this spec thing works we should have a little documentation to back it up. Then maybe do trial run of the rule set. Have the BOD review the idea the right way. Distribute it through the Propwash and such. I think this new approach will hold up where as the old way had a shelf life.

Not happening from here. And FWIW I will NOT support a rule set for P Limited in the IMPBA.It is not necessary. We have proved that!

Ok Darin....:hug1: Perhaps some of the guys just like the smell of burnt stators, they aren't actually trying to achieve higher speeds. I sit corrected. But, I do wonder how long it will take before this next batch of motors are "junk" and you guys are having this discussion again.

Just my .02 fellas. Other than a IMPBA National rule set, I have officially given myself permission not to care. And no, I am not on the edge of a cliff.:tiphat:

Driving on fellas. Enjoy!

Darin Jordan
03-30-2017, 01:13 PM
[SIZE=5]But, I do wonder how long it will take before this next batch of motors are "junk" and you guys are having this discussion again.

Dethow, ^^^^^ Some of the "fear and speculation" I was referring too... :tt2: :w00t:

There won't be a "batch", Doug... You're thinking in the past. :thumbup1:

That said, and once again, I don't give a rip if these are EVER National rules... As long as OUR club members are happy, that's good enough for me. People can choose to hinder or enhance their clubs as they see fit. :tiphat:

T.S.Davis
03-30-2017, 01:16 PM
If we went to 61.5mm and added an external fan what's the difference? It's nothing to do. Used to run external fans on my 2030's. Just blew air across those miserable wires. That internal fan is just another piece of rotating mass for the winds to turn. Has resistance too. It has to actually move air and as such adds load to the rotor. It's not a freebie. No advantage in my mind. An external fan costs less power wise.

Sighting Neu as a source for good information on manufacturing tolerances isn't crazy. I mean he actually does know what he's doing. Ever have a really hard time getting a cooling can on? Guess how come? duhhhh This ain't NASA. We're not launching people into space. Some fudge factor will be okay. Not trying to creep the rules. Just trying to be inclusive. Both for the racers and for those that make the crap we race.

Larry J-2 Rule 1.a. "Only one pack may be used even if multiple speed controls are used." It was explained to me that "someone" (it was actually one guy) was worried somebody would find a way to have a speedo use the two packs to series the voltage inside the speedo. Insisted on single source. Never heard of it. Never seen it. Never even thought of it. A rule written for fear of something that didn't exist then and still doesn't 10+ years later. Today you can buy off the shelf boats that are designed to run separate packs to separate controllers. Not legal...............unless you run NAMBA. Then no problem.

I think the no twins in P was based on fear again. Fear that P would become dominated by twin everything. At that time and really now too on paper, P class was the where you moved to after you got done hating N classes. There was nothing in between for Joe average racer to compete in. Now we have these spec classes everyone migrates to that attract both new racers and vets. Worrying about twin P cats today is silly IMO.

John, yer' kill'n me man. We actually could provide a gauge to check dimensions. Some of our guys have serious skills and even more serious equipment they work with. Kevin probably has the gear to certify the danged things. We did talk about it.

T.S.Davis
03-30-2017, 01:28 PM
[SIZE=5] But, I do wonder how long it will take before this next batch of motors are "junk" and you guys are having this discussion again.

Which batch Doug? The batch from TP, Neu, Lehner, Proboat, Aquacraft, Leopard, Turnigy, Himax, Castle, Trinity, Hobbywing, Feigao, or Hacker?

Just off the top of my head. I'm predicting it's unlikely that all those manufacturers motors will go to crap the same day. Wild speculation on my part I know.

Trying to get more speed than the guy you are racing against is not the same as trying to obtain P speeds. If you can get 70mph in the back straight on a limited mono setup you let me know. I wanna see it.

You guys have been running NAMBA limited rules at the IMPBA Spring NATS for years now. How is that showing you didn't need limited rules? You just ran rules written "by others". They're still rules.

dethow
03-30-2017, 01:54 PM
If we went to 61.5mm and added an external fan what's the difference? It's nothing to do. Used to run external fans on my 2030's. Just blew air across those miserable wires. That internal fan is just another piece of rotating mass for the winds to turn. Has resistance too. It has to actually move air and as such adds load to the rotor. It's not a freebie. No advantage in my mind. An external fan costs less power wise.

I agree with all that Terry.
I think some of my disagreement with the Lehner w/fan also comes from wanting to protect a new guy with deep pockets. An experienced guy may have found that preverbal sweet spot with that Lehner and now a new guy goes and spends $300 on a motor only to bake it after 4 laps.
So I think this motor either brings possible dominance if that sweet spot is found by an experienced racer and/or brings wasting money by new and less experienced racers.
But this may all fix itself once we see what they can do. If they keep baking I'm sure a new guy will be told not to waste their money. And if someone is showing dominance we will do what's necessary to block that motor out.

dethow
03-30-2017, 01:59 PM
And by the way... Terry.
If I was going to spend the money on a Lehner... I'd go with the 1930 without fan and consider an external fan. Costs less and as you said the external fan would cost less power wise.
But now that's only a 54mm long 2-pole motor. So I wouldn't do that either. The whole Lehner thing makes no sense to me. But we'll see... right?

TRUCKPULL
03-30-2017, 02:35 PM
Here is an other motor to through into the mix.

Larry

dethow
03-30-2017, 03:01 PM
Here is an other motor to through into the mix.

Larry

Yes...
Just warn everyone to be careful to only get the "TS-EZ 2240" that measures dia of 36mm.
They also make a "CZII 2240" and a "Viper 2240" also can be labeled as "VZ-2240" which both measure dia at 38mm.
Number alone doesn't appear to correlate with can size.

And current problem is that there are none of the "TS-EZ 2240"s available from Tenshock. Don't know if they can be found elsewhere and are available.

Hey... :hornets_nest: Maybe we should increase the tolerance to 38mm??? :just-kidding:

TRUCKPULL
03-30-2017, 03:17 PM
And current problem is that there are none of the "TS-EX 2240"s available from Tenshock. Don't know if they can be found elsewhere and are available.

Do you not mean the "TS-EZ 2240"
The EZ is the EDF motor

Larry

Ken Haines
03-30-2017, 03:20 PM
Hey... :hornets_nest: Maybe we should increase the tolerance to 38mm??? :just-kidding:


here is what I am picturing.....Right About Now,
Doug's ear's are ringing....lol
and his head is starting to explode
:flashfire:

TRUCKPULL
03-30-2017, 03:35 PM
And current problem is that there are none of the "TS-EZ 2240"s available from Tenshock. Don't know if they can be found elsewhere and are available.:

David
I just did a search, and filled out an order for a TS-EZ 2240 -7T- 2260kv.(I did not place the order, just looking)
This is the page that came up.
It says at the bottom 5 to 10 days

Tenshock*!**6*!**Pole*!**Brushless*!**Motor*!**EDF EZ2240*!**
Features*!**
1.CNC machined AL casing
2.Efficiency 6-Pole 9 Slots brushless motor
3.High purity copper windings making maximizes conductivity
4.Powerful sintered neodymium magnet
5.High torque and light weight
6.Rotor Kevlar package
7.High grade bearing
Details
Poles: 6
Diameter:36mm *!**
Length: 61.5mm
ØShaft: 5mm
Length shaft: 14.5mm*!**
Weight: 290 g
Max. RPM: 54.000
Max. temp: 180 °C*!**
Timing: 8-10
Mounting hole distance: 25mm
Mounting hole size: M3*4

*!**
NOTE:
Most kv of motor are in available,only few kv may need to wait about 7-10 work days to produce.
Hope you can understand.we will keep informed you about *!**the status.

I do like EDF motors, I ran a pair of them in my Twin "P" Cat
and I also have a pair of EDF 40mm X 70mm in my new "Q" twin Cat

Here is a note for everyone,
I don't why this is, but in a EDF "Y" wind motor the timing is 10 degree MAX.

This is the third company that I have seen post this for their EDF motors.
I even confirmed by E-Mail with "HET MOTORS" about this.

Larry

dethow
03-30-2017, 03:49 PM
I'm seeing "item not available" on the Tenshock website.
And when I try to add one to basket it says "Your chosen quantity of the following products are not available and the delivery may delay:"
150641

What website are you using? I'm using the following:
http://tenshock-motors.de/Tenshock-Brushless-Motor-6-Pole-TSCZ2240_2

Doug Smock
03-30-2017, 04:19 PM
You guys have been running NAMBA limited rules at the IMPBA Spring NATS for years now. How is that showing you didn't need limited rules? You just ran rules written "by others". They're still rules.

Terry OMG, I'm going to take you for a walk in Atlanta. We'll bond, it will be fun.:laugh:
What we have proved for the last eight years, is that we don't need a N A T I O N A L rule set on these classes! It took less than an hour via email to poll club and some Dist. members to see if we wanted to change the Limited rules for the Nats. We went with the MMEU rules because you guys have already started the change and we wanted to make it easy for you guys as we wanted you as our guests. What's not to like? Never mind, sorry I asked.:tongue:

Darin I agree with you on the club deal, for me currently it's a District deal. My second term is up in Dec.:buttrock:

They will be running some Limited classes in a Dist. GP Race in Folkston Ga. this weekend without many of the FE regulars. They will be running Proboat and AQ motors, a lot of them with AQ speedos. They will be having a blast and the best part is they aren't even aware that this needs to be "fixed". :thumbup: If and when they decide the classes need to be revisited it will be discussed at our annual Dist. meeting. Any changes will go into effect the following year. No forum threads, no national rules to argue over, it doesn't get any easier!

Doug Smock
03-30-2017, 04:28 PM
here is what I am picturing.....Right About Now,
Doug's ear's are ringing....lol
and his head is starting to explode
:flashfire:

LOL Ken!

Yes the Tinnitus is at about a 8+ but I'm ok! :beerchug:

Is it time to race yet?!?!?

dethow
03-30-2017, 05:02 PM
What website are you using? I'm using the following:
http://tenshock-motors.de/Tenshock-Brushless-Motor-6-Pole-TSCZ2240_2

Nevermind Larry.
I found the USA dealer website and it looks like they ARE available. Here is a link for those whom may be interested.
http://www.tenshock.com/products/rc-model-plane-power-system-brushless-motor/edf-series-brushless-motor/ez-2240-6-pole-brushless-motor.html

Doug Smock
03-30-2017, 07:40 PM
My apologies to the MMEU for buttin in on your thread. Not my place, :sorry:

I'll be back up there to race no matter what you do. Like it or not, you can't deny my entry.:laugh:

dethow
03-30-2017, 07:46 PM
My apologies to the MMEU for buttin in on your thread. Not my place, :sorry:

I'll be back up there to race no matter what you do. Like it or not, you can't deny my entry.:laugh:

Don't think you were buttin Doug... You race here and this discussion is in regards to rules for this years Michigan cup.

Besides you did/said nothing wrong.

ray schrauwen
03-30-2017, 08:20 PM
Here goes the neighborhood, :tongue: :hornets_nest: :biggrin:

ray schrauwen
03-30-2017, 08:27 PM
Yes...
Just warn everyone to be careful to only get the "TS-EZ 2240" that measures dia of 36mm.
They also make a "CZII 2240" and a "Viper 2240" also can be labeled as "VZ-2240" which both measure dia at 38mm.
Number alone doesn't appear to correlate with can size.

And current problem is that there are none of the "TS-EZ 2240"s available from Tenshock. Don't know if they can be found elsewhere and are available.

Hey... :hornets_nest: Maybe we should increase the tolerance to 38mm??? :just-kidding:

Perhaps rotor length and stack length not in that order per say. Others do this type of notation.

ray schrauwen
03-30-2017, 08:28 PM
Here goes the neighborhood, :tongue: :hornets_nest: :biggrin:

T.S.Davis
03-30-2017, 08:38 PM
No apology needed or accepted Doug. I should have used emoticon or something. I ain't mad at ya at all. Zero zip notta.

I'm just getting tired carrying you on these rules all the time.
Bahahaha. I hope you can hear me grinning from Georgia. We need to install a relief valve on your forehead. I'll bring tools.

Doug Smock
03-30-2017, 10:22 PM
No Terry I didn't think you were upset, we're good, I'm good, it's all good my brother.
Just starting feeling a little dirty for stinkin up your club thread guys, that's all. :wink:

Thanks fellas,

Let's race!

longballlumber
03-30-2017, 10:48 PM
Nevermind Larry.
I found the USA dealer website and it looks like they ARE available. Here is a link for those whom may be interested.
http://www.tenshock.com/products/rc-model-plane-power-system-brushless-motor/edf-series-brushless-motor/ez-2240-6-pole-brushless-motor.html

I am pretty sure this website is direct from tenshock direct. Any motors ordered will be shipped from outside of the US.

dethow
03-31-2017, 09:51 AM
I am pretty sure this website is direct from tenshock direct. Any motors ordered will be shipped from outside of the US.

Maybe... and probably...
Difference is that I think I was on a European website that said they were not available. Prices were all in EUR.
When I ran a search this website was described as Tenshock USA and has prices in USD first with option of EUR.

Looks like Tenshock company is out of Guangzhou City, China.

None the less... it looks they can be purchased for $139.99 each (plus shipping) which doesn't look that bad with quote for 1 motor at $5.00 economy int'l shipping or $12.38 expedited int'l shipping to my zip in Michigan.

longballlumber
04-08-2017, 05:55 PM
Here is an other motor to through into the mix.

Larry

I would advise staying away from these tenshock motors. They don't match the posted dimension for length. Not to meantition they do not respond to emails. Wasted money!

dethow
04-08-2017, 08:38 PM
I would advise staying away from these tenshock motors. They don't match the posted dimension for length. Not to meantition they do not respond to emails. Wasted money!

Ummm. That sucks! :confused2: That's pretty far off the 61.5mm they list.

ray schrauwen
04-08-2017, 09:42 PM
Well...... usually I'm that guy holding the holding the hot potato. Thats a drag.