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T.S.Davis
01-15-2017, 09:59 AM
Hey guys, is anyone racing actual heats in scale unlimited? Is there a venue that puts together heats anywhere?

Can we talk about the motors list? I know why it's there. Attempted cost check. Does it make any sense in 2017? You could get a killer TP or even a Leopard to push a scale for half of what a Lehner 2280 costs. A 56 series would be best but NOPE not legal.

Doug Smock
01-15-2017, 10:43 AM
I knew this subject was going to come up again. :smile:
Remember with the introduction of lithium the sky was falling and the argument was heat racing and destroying 80-100 mph scales?
Is this still a concern? If so what limits do you place on the class? How do we enforce (tech)it?

I'm not aware of any venue in the IMPBA that consistently offers and builds heats of FE Scale. My Scale has only run in one FE only race and that was the Mich. Cup. (three boats entered that year) Other than that it races the 60s when allowed. It will be interesting to see if we can attract enough Scales at the Spring Nats. to separate FE and the 60s.:wink:

Will a motor rule change put more FE Scales on the pond? I doubt it, they are expensive boats, and not everyone's cup of tea. However, I am interested in seeing if opinions have changed.

D.

Fluid
01-15-2017, 10:48 AM
Terry, what does "technical approval" mean? This may be a route to the use of other motors, particularly if the "approval" doesn't mean a national committee must be involved.


.

T.S.Davis
01-15-2017, 11:11 AM
I don't know Doug. I guess I'm curious too. I don't think opening up a the spec will add or detract from it. Like you said, they take a tin of dough to do. Allowing more motor options might make it easier to get into it.

I guess I could nmake the argument that the motor spec is keeping me out of scale. I have a scale I've been working on for years. Still not quite right but getting there. I can't bring it to Atlanta though as it isn't legal for IMPBA. Tom Schlarb has a beautiful Winston Eagle he wants to bring to the Cup. Not legal. We have an Elam in our club that the owner wants to try a TP in........not legal.

I thought the limits' intent was to keep scale from turning into an arms race where the deepest pocket wins. I rember thinking then that the notion that "budget" and "scale" could coexist was nonsense. These suckers are outrageous dollars no matter the motor.

Jay, that whole "tech approval" thing might just be Chris. I'm pretty confident he's not seen too many scales.

We've not had the limit in NAMBA either and the results aren't much different. Cost and probably the skill required to build one is still the real deterant.

So........what's the spec doing for anyone. Guy shows up with an 1/8 scale under 10s. Let him run.

don ferrette
01-15-2017, 11:19 AM
Hey guys, is anyone racing actual heats in scale unlimited? Is there a venue that puts together heats anywhere?

Can we talk about the motors list? I know why it's there. Attempted cost check. Does it make any sense in 2017? You could get a killer TP or even a Leopard to push a scale for half of what a Lehner 2280 costs. A 56 series would be best but NOPE not legal.I looked at this motor thing a short while back after a couple district guys wanted to understand why the motor rule was like it is. It really had nothing to do with a cost check, if that were the case the Lehner surely wouldn't be on that list, LOL! Those rules were written when the motor selection was far less than it is now and lipos didn't exist. After spending a fair amount of time on it my opinion is if changes are made (which have to be BOD and membership approved) a good approach might be to limit motor can length and diameter. I feel you're only gonna get so much out of a given armature size but that's just my thoughts. Doug is spot on with his assessment of the class- it's a specialty class and not everyone's cup of tea. No matter if it's nitro, FE or gas powered building a scale unlimited hydro costs money and requires a lot of effort. Sadly, and I know this will ruffle feathers, the effort part will be what holds it back as it seems every year the average boater is becoming more "lazy" and wants instant gratification rather than spending time and effort to create something like a nice scale boat. Scale racing will always be a niche class and I'm truly disappointed at what the "plug and play" mentality is doing to our hobby.............

Doug Smock
01-15-2017, 11:30 AM
It's not as easy as just getting technical approval. A change to National rules would require a proposal that would be handled as follows.

1. Rule Proposal under General Rules of Competition, Contest & Racing Rules, Technical
Standards, and Classes
a) Option #1 - All rule proposals supported by a majority of the Executive Board, will
automatically undergo a trial period for one year (except as noted in section 1, C). After
one year, the proposal will be distributed to IMPBA membership with a ballot that will
require a head count for and against the proposal. Ballots shall be returned to the
respective District Director or the IMPBA secretary within the time stipulated. The final
vote of the Executive Board will be effective with the next quarterly report.
b) Option #2 - Board members vote by majority to turn down a submitted proposal. This
option terminates the proposal.
c) Option #3 - All rule proposals not supported and not terminated under option #2 by the
Board, will be distributed to IMPBA membership for vote by a ballot that will require a
head count for or against the proposal. The membership vote will determine the
implementation of said proposal and, if passed, will be effective with the next quarterly
report.
All Racing Rule proposals reviewed by the Board will be published in the Roostertail for
one full quarter before being voted on by the membership in the following calendar
quarter with the exception of one-year trials.
d) Option #4- Board members vote by majority to indefinitely table a submitted proposal.
This option allows a proposal to be revisited at a later time determined at Boards
discretion. A majority vote of the board required to re-visit proposal.

Doug Smock
01-15-2017, 12:00 PM
Terry,
You can allow other motors in scale at the Michigan Cup (since it is not the IMPBA FE Nationals) by listing any rule deviation on the race sanction and flier. As you know you cannot deviate from length, voltage, weight limit, & safety rules.

Doug

photohoward1
01-15-2017, 01:54 PM
I was part of that rules Group. We put it in so we would have scale speeds. We did not want to go 80-100 mph. We wanted to compete with the 60 size scale Nitros. The example was Alan and I were running Pletts, You might Run a 2280 or a 1527 at the time. All very equal in performance and could get you between 50-60 mph. We wanted to keep out a Moron like me putting in a 3060 0r 3080 or even a 2030 Neu in the boats. Besides no on wants to blow a scale over. Very Messy. I think you should do what you have done for the Michigan limited series. Spec a motor size and length. Going to be tough though. My plett is Fatter but shorter than a 2280 but about the same wattage. Maybe we can spec wattage?

T.S.Davis
01-15-2017, 03:02 PM
The nitro guys don't want to run with us anyway. Not because they're butt heads or anything. It's just too confusing for them and if you beat them you've done so with something they don't understand. It's like rubbing an open sore for them.

I wanted to build a light scale on 6s if your remember Howard.

The NAMBA scale rules were written in a hotel room in Jersey by Ken, Waters, and myself in 2006.

I don't guess it matters what we do. The cost and effort is high to the point that most won't do it. Like Don mentioned, most want to plug n' play at 100mph.

Doug Smock
01-15-2017, 03:42 PM
FWIW I think you guys were on the right track Howard. The current motors work running with the 60s yet some Nitro Scale racers are still opposed to running with comparable FEs. Like Terry, I get that too. Even though speeds are similar FEs pull harder out of the corner and..............

I agree that the boats are fast enough with the current motors. Motor size & length may be the only answer if a change is desired.

D.

longballlumber
01-15-2017, 04:15 PM
I didn't take time to look it up, but how are TT handled with regards to the FE 1/8 Scale class? Are the motor requirements dropped?

longballlumber
01-15-2017, 04:49 PM
I didn't take time to look it up, but how are TT handled with regards to the FE 1/8 Scale class? Are the motor requirements dropped?

Disregard... just read the rule set, and realized there isn't a KV limit, just motors.

Later,
Ball

NativePaul
01-15-2017, 05:45 PM
Spec a motor size and length. Going to be tough though. My plett is Fatter but shorter than a 2280 but about the same wattage. Maybe we can spec wattage?

Specing a motor mass makes things a lot easier, the thermal mass dictates the rate that it will heat up, and would maintain energy parity between similarly efficient motors irrespective of diameter, length, and cooling solution. If you want a long thin Nue that is no problem just keep it under 800g (or whatever), 2280 no worries <800g, short fat TP no worries just keep it under 800g, want a fancy LK with cooling fan built into the motor, go ahead, but the weight it takes up mean you will have less copper and/or magnet, so you still get similar power.

The only issue with it is that more efficient motors of a given mass can produce more useful power before they overcome their ability to dissipate waste heat, just as size limited motors do, so it gives advantage to more efficient motors which tend to be more expensive. Open motors would not have that issue but would allow for much greater than .60 performance, and possibly faster than scale speeds.

T.S.Davis
01-15-2017, 07:50 PM
My current scale is a converted nitro. Its heavy. 1527 won't push it.

Todd Fleury
01-16-2017, 09:50 AM
Terry,
A Lehner or Plett would push that hog of yours.

Speed810
01-16-2017, 10:51 AM
Terry, Doug and Don.......

Saw Terry had brought up the motor specs for 1/8 scale on a new thread here. I really appreciate the discussion and find out the thought process behind the rule. Seems to be some different view points, ALL that make since. Since MMEU has changed over to IMPBA I have been looking at all the rules and making sure that I am within spec on all my boats. I had actually raised the question on 1.8 scale power specs to Terry because I would really like to race my Elam boat not just the MI Cup race, but more this year in IMPBA events, including the Spring Nationals.

As Don and Doug know I had spent countless hours on that boat...(Not to say all the questions that Doug and Don answered for me>>>>Really appreciate guys!!) The boat is the pride of my fleet and turned out beautifully!! The boat also turned out really heavy (20lbs) with the NEU 1527. Both the ETTI ESC and the 1527 burned up in the first heat at the MI Cup race. Figured it was due to the weight and prop selection that I was advised by many that the 1527 could handle. Well after a lot of research and questions maybe that 1527 is a bit to small for that boat. All I would like is for it to be competitive not an 80Mph boat and not burn up motors and/or ESC's.

Really good point on wanting to maintain a scale speed appearance and not get these things going to fast. With the time and money that most of us have into these boats it is always nice when everything comes back in one piece....:biggrin: I am kind of leaning with you guys on the RTR's that can also be run in this class. Not a real fan of the RTR 1/8 scale running in some of these events especially if they do not meet boat specifications or motor requirements....which most of us take extra time and money to make sure they meet those sepcs.

So when it comes to motor not sure why we wouldn't have them be more in line with the way rules are set via using dia., length, Kv and possibly weight. Like it has been said the line of manufactured motors listed really puts a strain on things for most of us on a budget. And yes that includes me...LOL

Would this attract more 1/8 scales to the sport??....Not sure, but it certainly should not decrease. There is no doubt that these 1/8 scales are pricey and a lot of effort goes into them, but the way motor requirements are listed it does lend it self to who has the money to lunch out on a more efficient motor.....i.e. Lehner. Which in turn makes them more competitive......IM-limitedHO.....:olleyes:

Thanks for listening guys....be interesting to see more discussion...

Mike

Doug Smock
01-16-2017, 01:16 PM
Hey Mike & Terry

What motors are you currently running in your Scales? What motor is most common in NAMBA 1/8 scale?

D.

T.S.Davis
01-16-2017, 01:57 PM
Now that I think about it.......scale speed? WTH is that? What does that even mean? Totally subjective. You can't put a number on it. Math doesn't really work because the water doesn't scale. We've all been through this discussion.

Every time I go to the real races I'm struck by how far out on the ragged edge these guys are running. Tell them they're going too fast. When I watch our scale boats run I don't think ragged edge.

Scale Unlimiteds...................unlimiteds........... ...uhm...........unlimiteds. "But we need limits" Lets put a max speed on them. Being a weeny now. Are we racing or are we just worried about the "look"? I know scale boats are prettier than most but the ragged edge is the point of racing if I remember correctly.

NAMBA has not had the motor list and we aren't going 80 plus. NAMBA has also likely fielded more heats than IMPBA. Still no 80 mph boats.

This is like all the 100mph heat boats that the doom and gloomers predicted we were going to see if we allowed parallel cells when LiPo came out. IMPBA took it further with no Mah restrictions. Seen any 100mph P mono oval boats? That's because it's not practical. Seen any 80mph oval scales? That's because it isn't practical.

You can push a heavy scale on a 1527 with a tiny armature at a bunch of amps or you can turn a big motor at less amps with a decent prop. The assumption that more motor choices equates to a 20 mph gain isn't what has happened.

Unless you drop down into the 600kv range a Lehner 2280 doesn't have the torque to push a heavy scale. Been there done that. There a reason that guys have run the 1527 since 2006. The Plett has the torque with multiple poles but I've not messed with those at all. Hell of a commitment on a guess since the data is hard to come by.

Doug, 1527 is still the goto motor but once your boat gets heavy forget it. I'm running a 2217 at the moment.

If your boat is heavy and you run IMPBA you won't be able to race it. At the CanAm we had 2 of 4 entries that were legal. Instead of allowing other motors they called us T sport. We all knew what the class was though.

T.S.Davis
01-16-2017, 02:01 PM
This is interesting too.

The guys that collaborated on the IMPBA motor list.........take a stab at how many of them are still racing scale? Two of those guys don't even own boats anymore.

Speed810
01-16-2017, 02:46 PM
Doug,

Really can't add much here seeing that I have not really had the chance to run many 1/8 scale events. When in NAMBA the past few years the 1527 seemed to be a common motor on the lighter scale boats, but it appeared that larger motors were being used in the more modern scales. i.e. heavier boats. So after all the problems that I had last year and a lot of research decided to motor up. Now that we are IMPBA that takes all that off the table. Now I have a beautiful anchor....LOL

Yes, the club could make special considerations for an event as they did at the CanAm or for this years MI Cup....but that still doesn't make it more inviting or cost effective for those of us that would like to race at other IMPBA events. Have to agree with Terry on the class title... it is called "Unlimited". Not that I would ever look at this scale reaching even 75 to 80Mph....that's just to darn scary.....[and I'm Old].....LOL Plus the investment in one of these boats is a big consideration when racing, certainly don't want to wreck one of these or god forbid anyone else's boat.

But would sure like to have a boat that is capable of having a motor in it that I know fits the weight and prop configuration that will push the boat competitively without burning everything up.

NativePaul
01-16-2017, 03:34 PM
Scale speed it the square of the scale factor which takes in to account not only scaling the distance, but scaling the time too (many people (mainly in the car world) forget to account for scaling the time and just divide by the scale factor which is very obviously incorrect, but for some reason believe it anyway). For 1:8 scale you divide the real boat's speed by 2.83, We don't have H1 boats here, so I don't actually know how fast they go, but the H1 site says in excess of 200mph in the straightaway and 200MPH works out at 71mph, the 220mph SAW record works out at 78mph. I guess the scale speeds should be somewhere in the low 70s.

Doby
01-16-2017, 04:45 PM
Terry..at the Cup this year...what motors are going to be allowed in the 1/8th scale...the Plett in my (Ressor's old) Executone died a few seasons ago and I'm thinking of resurrecting it, but instead of 10S..I'd like to do an 8S setup (IMPBA rules allow T and S voltages)..Its a light boat, runs really dry..could almost do 3 full heats on 10,000Mah with the 10S setup. I'd love to go with a Leopard of some suitable kv for 8S.

I guess what I'm asking is, will the race flyer state other acceptable motors?

What would be a good kv for 8S? Never done an 8S setup...lots of 10S's..just not 8S.

Doug Smock
01-16-2017, 05:30 PM
Terry I get it, sure do. I was very anxious when I ran the Squire for the first time. The boat is heavy +17#s IIRC. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the 1527. I understand wanting (actually needing) more motor for the heavier boats. When I came to the Michigan Cup it was the first time I had seen in person any FE Scales other than my own. Pags boat is a fraction of the weight of mine, I was surprised actually.
There is only one way I could get my boat to really be a problem for him.........more motor. I haven't tried, but I'm sure prop won't get me there without hurting something. Michigan certainly wasn't the place to try it. lol

I understand where you're at Mike, I have the only FE Scale in D13. It sits on a shelf and only runs a few times a year.:sad:

I will say this about the Spring Nats. If we get enough 60s to make a class, and enough FE interest to do the same, I will approach the District and racers entered about lifting the motor limit so you guys can run. Nothing would make me happier. I'd love to see and participate in full heat of FE Scales, that would be a first for me.:thumbup1:

ray schrauwen
01-16-2017, 06:26 PM
I would not push a TP too hard. Just received an email from them saying motors are only rated to 80*C.

My 4070 is now a paper weight.

ray schrauwen
01-16-2017, 06:28 PM
Why not a HET? http://www.highendrc.com/index_eproduct_view.php?products_id=210

Speed810
01-16-2017, 06:57 PM
Doug....

I hear ya. It would be great to run some full heats of 1/8 scale down there. Exactly what you are concerned with is what happened to me at last years cup race.
Tried pushing the 1527 with to much prop to keep up with some of the other boats and it was hot out....blew both the ESC and motor. Pags ended up loaning me another 1527...propped down and at least got in a few heats on the second day. It was nice just to see it on the water, but it was really not competitive speed wise. Should have the 1527 back soon, Pags sent out for me to be re-wound and all.

Really have a problem and dilemma here.....I can just leave the 1527 in the boat and try to just turn laps. But if I decide to motor up it means replacing the motor mount and cutting out and replacing the stuffing tube because the angle is all going to be different for a 56 motor. It would be nice if I could find out before hand....:) Heck....maybe I'll throw that 56 motor in it anyway and hope for the best in up coming events....can't really run it the way it is.
Hope to see you down there in ATL in the spring Doug!!!

Hey Ray....I also talked with them along with Brian B and Mike at ML Boats. The motor would be the 5660 642Kv on 10S. The 4070 would not do anything for me in this 1/8 scale....From what I understand that 5660 will actually be a great fit for the weight of this boat and still run plenty cool. Power wise I think its going to make you really drive this boat....not just hold the trigger and let it go....LOL

Doug Smock
01-16-2017, 07:10 PM
What prop were you running Mike? I haven't strayed from a m cut 450/3.

ray schrauwen
01-16-2017, 07:43 PM
Yeah, you need a 56mm motor.

TP works. I had an SSS 5684-1200kv motor in a heavy 40" mono on 6S2P. Ran great and cold. It was a setup to beat on. Almost wish I kept it but too damn big for me anymore. I could crank 57mm props without breaking a sweat. Shoulda kept the motor at least and put it in a Whip 40.

Speed810
01-16-2017, 08:13 PM
Hey Doug...was running an cupped X450(3) and when I blew everything I was running a cut back X452(3).
I had run the 452 one other time and it had really come back hot, but did pick up on some speed. Had Mark Shouland cut some diameter out to cut down the blade area. But it was just to much I guess.

Todd Fleury
01-16-2017, 08:56 PM
I am all for going with a can diameter and length, but I do not agree with putting a soda can motor in a scale boat. That is not the purpose of the class. It is a driver and gentleman's class.

Speed810
01-16-2017, 09:09 PM
So you consider the 56mm a soda can...LOL

Todd Fleury
01-16-2017, 09:37 PM
Yes, I consider a 56mm a soda can.

Doug Smock
01-16-2017, 09:38 PM
Hey Doug...was running an cupped X450(3) and when I blew everything I was running a cut back X452(3).
I had run the 452 one other time and it had really come back hot, but did pick up on some speed. Had Mark Shouland cut some diameter out to cut down the blade area. But it was just to much I guess.

I made the right choice in Michigan.:thumbup1: I'll take a second, third, or whatever over smoke any day. lol Some of the guys may remember I'm a "Stator friendly racer":laugh:

I agree on the soda cans Todd.
I was a rent a driver in 60 scale before I ever ran a FE scale. It was the driving and gentlemen aspect of the class that got me hooked.

Speed810
01-16-2017, 10:01 PM
Well guess I'll stick with the slug 1527 motor. Don't really have any place to go.
Let me make clear guys I am with ya on the gentlemen's class thought. I don't want anything that is going to be scary fast. Just competitive. I know this boat is at least 2 to 3 pounds heavier than your Squire Shop Doug and I've seen video and that is a fast boat along with being a beautiful piece of work. And I know even Todd's Peter&May is also a lot lighter than my Elam. Just a shame that I have all this work and money into it and really can't race it with the current power limitation. I love to build and run these scale boats...

Doby
01-16-2017, 11:31 PM
Yeah, you need a 56mm motor.

TP works. I had an SSS 5684-1200kv motor in a heavy 40" mono on 6S2P. Ran great and cold. It was a setup to beat on. Almost wish I kept it but too damn big for me anymore. I could crank 57mm props without breaking a sweat. Shoulda kept the motor at least and put it in a Whip 40.

Is that the motor i bought off you a few years ago?

Doby
01-16-2017, 11:36 PM
Not sure why everyone refers to it as a gentleman's class...whenever they hit the water, its pedal to the metal....although we do usually shake hands before and after each heat. Other than that it business as normal.

Doug Smock
01-16-2017, 11:40 PM
Well guess I'll stick with the slug 1527 motor. Don't really have any place to go.


Probably going to get pounded for saying this but it would be great if you guys did some real life testing in your club this year.:wink::wink: :smile:

Speed810
01-17-2017, 12:04 AM
HAHA...Doug Not going to do any pounding.....:bash: :laugh:

You talking just experimenting with different set ups to gather some data for possible rule changes down the line?
Could be possible!!.....:beerchug:

Doug Smock
01-17-2017, 12:24 AM
HAHA...Doug Not going to do any pounding.....:bash: :laugh:

You talking just experimenting with different set ups to gather some data for possible rule changes down the line?
Could be possible!!.....:beerchug:

That didn't come from me. LOL Terry brought it up.:laugh:

T.S.Davis
01-17-2017, 12:29 AM
Well if it's just a gentleman's class lets not race them. Just put them in the same turn together and take cool pictures.

The purpose of the class? The intent was to race them. I know what the intent was when Ken and I proposed it.

The motor list didn't put scales on every IMPBA pond. It also didn't make FE boats comparable to nitro resulting in them being run together all over the place.

The lack of a motor list didn't put NAMBA scales on every pond. It also didn't result in 80 mph scales.

Both approaches failed to put take scale mainstream.

Gonna have to stew on this some. My hunch is that the lack of participation has nothing to do with the motors. It's all about the effort required to put one on the water. It aint fer everyone. The point is to put boats on the water. That's the "purpose".

Keeping the motor list keeps the cost up and actually eliminates some boats from competition entirely. Is that good for the class?

Another way to look at it too.......who cares? There are maybe 2 dozen of these from coast to coast. The only NAMBA regular heats are in MI and the only regular IMPBA heats are never. So why all the hand wringing over motors? "Oh, gotta keep the motors dinky for that scale appearance" Paul said the math should put us around 70. We're not there on the oval. More like mid to upper 50's.

Maybe FE scale should be under 10s and scale. Then we can stop pissing and moaning about motors. Someday I'm going to build an 8255 on 6s for spite.

Doug Smock
01-17-2017, 12:36 AM
LOL Terry! Yes, let's stew on it some.

Todd Fleury
01-17-2017, 10:09 AM
I agree that the boats are meant to race. But you have people like Thomas Schlarb that are boasting 70+ all day using a TP 56mm motor in his scale. We also don't race them like we race every other class. We are not running deck to deck with these things.

Todd Fleury
01-17-2017, 10:20 AM
If MMEU agrees, I am willing to drop the motor requirement for scale this year as a trial run. I'll just drop in a 3060 in my T-4 and see how it goes.

ray schrauwen
01-17-2017, 01:06 PM
Is that the motor i bought off you a few years ago?

that was a 5694. I liked the 5684 a bit better.

Doug Smock
01-17-2017, 01:32 PM
We also don't race them like we race every other class. We are not running deck to deck with these things.

That was my experience racing the 60s.
The guys have a little different mentality that some of the other classes. I'm the same way. I won't try to stick a scale (mine or someone else's) in a hole that I might with a mono etc. Way too much time and money to risk! And for what? A bowling trophy.:wink:

That's what gentleman's class means to me. Your results may vary.

T.S.Davis
01-17-2017, 01:41 PM
Todd, why didn't you already? 3060 is a really good scale motor. Power to weight is good and the rotor is bigger so you get the needed torque. It would be perfect in the Peters boat.

Less Doug. Usually just a plate that says "1st place scale"

Todd Fleury
01-17-2017, 02:08 PM
Terry, I agree with you that the 3060 is a good scale motor, but the Peters & May has limited room. It is also already setup for my 2280, and do not want to have to redo the stuffing tube, sub hatch and other items.

longballlumber
01-17-2017, 10:32 PM
I probably shouldn't post this, but...

Does removing the motor rule for 1/8 scale help the class? Meaning how long is the line for guys with 1/8 scale boats willing race but can't/won't because of a motor? I don't think the motor rule is the dam? In observing the FE 1/8 class in the recent past there are a lot of 1/8 scale rules that aren't being met, but are still allowed to race...

There is only 5-7 (seven is a stretch) that will actually be at the same race at the same time... communicate and make it work.... if your motor is out of spec, offer to prop down if your boat is THAT MUCH faster. It just seems this discussion is way more difficult given the number of participants in the IMPBA org.....

As they say.... flame suit on.

T.S.Davis
01-18-2017, 12:56 AM
The more I think on it the more inclined I am to just let the class die.

There's no demand.

ray schrauwen
01-18-2017, 01:03 AM
Fun as heck to watch. If there was a RTR 1/10th scale I'd do that. I don't like all the fussy details :p Alan Nayman paint jobs or bust I say!

tjcast
01-18-2017, 01:33 AM
Fun as heck to watch. If there was a RTR 1/10th scale I'd do that. I don't like all the fussy details :p Alan Nayman paint jobs or bust I say!

How much easier does it get? :confused2::confused1:

raptor347
01-18-2017, 01:44 AM
How much easier does it get? :confused2::confused1:

I've got molds for that boat in 1/8 scale.

T.S.Davis
01-18-2017, 12:19 PM
I've got molds for that boat in 1/8 scale.

You would! Like you have to make more boats.

The 10th frames that Mike is cutting go together easy enough. Being scale though they still require a certain amount of finesse to finish. It's not for everyone either.

Doby
01-18-2017, 12:33 PM
The more I think on it the more inclined I am to just let the class die.

There's no demand.

So 1/8th is officially dead....I'll burn my Executone then.

T.S.Davis
01-18-2017, 01:43 PM
So 1/8th is officially dead....I'll burn my Executone then.

Well don't make it out like it's my decision. hahaha

There is no NAMBA scale anymore. Not for me at least.

We have guys who can't get their boats to perform due to the power to weight ratio. We have guys who can because they purpose built and stayed light. Those guys want the rule to remain intact. It works for them. Well sort of............ It works if your definition of working is not ever racing them because there are no heats.

Changing the rule sounds like a nightmare and frankly is above my pay grade. Those that are currently able to run their light boats on the current motor list would likely campaign against it. Although in truth.......if there are no heats maybe there is no opposition either. Hard to say.

Leaves me three options...............run and be lapped by something lighter, build a new boat, or don't run the class. The scale gene pool is pretty shallow already. If a few guys say "uncle". It wouldn't take much of a support hiccup for there to be no heats at all anywhere. Sorta like N mono. Seen an IMPBA heat of that in the last 10 years? Not many.

ray schrauwen
01-18-2017, 02:14 PM
How much easier does it get? :confused2::confused1:

Yeah but I want everything for nothing, lol... Has to be modern version. Those Vintage ones are fugly.

I do have a built wood round nose in that size range in the closet. Might be an Osbourne Kit. Might be light enough... If I'm running vintage it better be free, lol...

ray schrauwen
01-18-2017, 02:26 PM
Needs a lot of TLC, lol...

tjcast
01-18-2017, 08:45 PM
Yeah but I want everything for nothing, lol... Has to be modern version. Those Vintage ones are fugly.


According to the master hull roster that boat is considered "modern". :doh:

Besides how can you call this fugly?!?! :confused2:
148871

Isn't it all about the racing?? :banana:
148872

ray schrauwen
01-18-2017, 09:04 PM
We'll see... :)

T.S.Davis
01-18-2017, 10:59 PM
That U2 boat is fast as hell too.

TRUCKPULL
01-19-2017, 02:16 AM
Terry

Why not just run a class called;
"S & T" Sport Hydro
No motor rules in that one.
Then everyone can play.

Larry

TRUCKPULL
01-19-2017, 02:19 AM
Needs a lot of TLC, lol...

Ray
That hull is the same as my Miss Madison was.

Too short for 1/10 scale and way TOO short for 1/8 scale

Larry

T.S.Davis
01-19-2017, 07:29 AM
Larry, that would make a 10s Backlash in the same class. That's what we did at the CanAm. Same boats we ran at the Cup where Schlarb jumped over the top of my boat.

Doby
01-19-2017, 11:33 AM
Then call it 1/8 scale (ish) Open?

Any motor..any voltage,,,any 1/8th (ish) scale (ish) hull.

Remember, you said the intent is to get boats on the water.

At a club level event..who really cares?

T.S.Davis
01-19-2017, 11:46 AM
We've already let guys run that we shouldn't have. Boats that weren't even close. The Proboat Elam for instance. Just wanted to get boats on the water. If we get too loosey goosey it's just sport hydro. Someone eventually will show up with something not even scale..ish. Then what?

Call it "T unrigger hydro" and run what ya brung?

Maybe this why I'm on the fence about helping keep it viable by supporting the class.

They need to be "scale" to be a "scale" class but my desire to be inclusive conflicts with the very concept of scale. Too loose with the rules and they're sport hydro. Too tight and it doesn't run because someones dims are off? Too strict on motor rules and it doesn't run? Too little motor rules and the boats become kites? No rules and it's not a class?

...............owe, my head hurts.

don ferrette
01-19-2017, 02:17 PM
Scale needs to remain SCALE, otherwise it's just another sport hydro class. Anyone who knows me knows my love for the 1/8th scale boats. I've been running nitro 1/8th for as long as I've been in this and when the FE bug bit me it was in short order that an FE 1/8th scale was in the fleet. Built a really nice Elam from an ML kit that was fast and handled extremely well. At the time we were allowing FE and nitro together. After winning with it some of the nitro guys starting pissing and moaning about the FEs so they got split. Hit my current no more wings phase sold the Elam and built a new boat. Spent a LOT of time designed it's layout, setting it up and making it right. After a couple test sessions and one race I had it where I wanted it. Last race of the season I was running very fast and basically owned the class that day. Fast forward to the next (last) season nobody is entering FE scale and the class isn't making. Finally got one of them to admit they didn't want to race me as mine was much faster. So after it sat on the shelf all season I sold it since it wasn't right for such a nice boat to collect dust plus the extra cash would be helpful. Now one of the same people who wouldn't run against me is posting up how he'd love to run his FE scale but there's not enough in the district. Really??? WTF??? This isn't spec racing, I bust butt to make really nice and really fast FE 1/8th scale and the others get all butt hurt and won't run. I'd love to build another FE scale but why should I after that crap....... :frusty:

Todd Fleury
01-19-2017, 04:26 PM
I agree with you Don. You were able to make your boat a champion and follow the IMPBA rules.

Doby
01-19-2017, 04:51 PM
Well...if we want to follow the rules...how many of us with 1/8ths have done this???

2. Registration Procedures
a. All boats must be registered with the District 1/8 scale Chairman.
b. The District Chairman will require the following information in writing:
I. Name, address and phone number.
II. IMPBA number.
III. Unlimited name, year raced, and number.
IV. Length and beam of prototype boat and model.
V. Prototype designer and boat colors.
VI. Must submit a photo of prototype boat.
VII. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.
c. Boat must compete at a racing event within one year from registration.

Doby
01-19-2017, 04:53 PM
Is there a list of "District 1/8th Scale Chairmen" anywhere?

At the next race where 1/8ths show up...better have your receipts ready for inspection! Otherwise...no running for you...come back one year!!!! (thanks to Seinfeild)

Todd Fleury
01-19-2017, 05:02 PM
The list is on the IMPBA website. I am sending in my information.

Doby
01-19-2017, 05:47 PM
Found a "National Scale Unlimited" guy listed under the "National Directors"...but no "District 1/8 scale Chairman"

In D2 found a "D2 Scale/Sport 40 Director" guy listed...but again no "District 1/8 scale Chairman".

Kinda hard to register with someone that doesn't exist.:olleyes:

Unless those I found are to be considered the "District 1/8 scale Chairman"....but that's not what the rule says.:scared:

T.S.Davis
01-19-2017, 05:51 PM
Never did any of that John. We didn't need to for NAMBA.

The question is do we require it to run? Supposed to. Is the class important enough to guys to get them to register? I s PAGS going to register all his scale boats for the one time he comes to MI each year to race 5 heats? How about temporary membership guys? Guys that are basically what we knew as SEI racers in NAMBA. Their boats wouldn't be registered and they aren't allowed to race?

Totally your point I assume John. Why get indignant about the motor choices if we're going to ignore 75% of the unlimited rules?

This rule is a chuckle too
$5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.

District high points? We've already established that there are no FE district scale heats anywhere.

These rules are dumb. Sorry guys. They're written like there are 30 of these in every district. There aren't 30 of them in the entire United States.

Doby
01-19-2017, 05:52 PM
Don..I noticed you are listed as the..

"D12 Scale Director
Don Ferrette"

Is that for scale boats as listed in section Q of the rule book?

Doby
01-19-2017, 05:54 PM
Terry..glad to see you are getting what I'm saying....

People like to quote rules, but who actually reads them?

Doby
01-19-2017, 05:56 PM
I get that you didn't need that for NAMBA...you don't really need the IMPBA rules either for the cup as the race flyer can surely over-rule (!!!!) the "rules".

Doby
01-19-2017, 05:57 PM
The almighty race flyer can fix all the worlds problems...unless you are holding a NATS I suppose.

Then enforce all the "rules" and be prepared for crickets chirping for certain classes.

Doby
01-19-2017, 06:04 PM
Besides...the boats only have to look scale...

4. Motor, Boat and Battery Specifications
a. All boats to be modeled after Unlimited hydroplanes from past or present.
b. All boats to be built to a scale of 1- 1/2" to 1'0" (1/8 scale) plus or minus 10% of the beam and
5% of the length
c. Boats will look as scale as possible and meet the following requirements for racing and scale
judging:
I. Cockpit with driver.
II. Complete all major lettering and paint schemes.
III. Effort must be made to conceal the motor with fake engine or cowling as per prototype
boats.

If a ProBoat miss Bud/Llumar/Elam etc meets the measurements of 4B (I have no idea if they do) then they should be allowed as they meet everything else as long as you put a clear windshield on it with a driver in the cockpit..

jaike5
01-19-2017, 09:31 PM
My Mark n Pack is a registered 1/8 scale. Olly was the 1/8 scale director for D1 when I registered don't know who it is now.
Mark n Pack is sporting a Plettenburg HP 370 BM/50, sch. 40/160, x450. 10s/1p. and it is mighty quick !!

Cheers, Jay.

Doby
01-19-2017, 10:21 PM
My Mark n Pack is a registered 1/8 scale. Olly was the 1/8 scale director for D1 when I registered don't know who it is now.
Mark n Pack is sporting a Plettenburg HP 370 BM/50, sch. 40/160, x450. 10s/1p. and it is mighty quick !!

Cheers, Jay.

Another Ressor boat! Did you pay your yearly 3 dollar fee..if not its NFG...gotta follow the rules.

Doby
01-19-2017, 10:22 PM
Question, I looked for 1/10 scale hydro rules in IMPBA...nothing (maybe i need to look harder)......how will those be handled?

Doug Smock
01-19-2017, 11:39 PM
Question, I looked for 1/10 scale hydro rules in IMPBA...nothing (maybe i need to look harder)......how will those be handled?
1/10th hydro doesn't exist in the IMPBA. You want to run it, run it. Keep em at or under the max. voltage, length, & weight.

Again, post the rules on the sanction & race flier. (Yes, it fixes a lot of things, keeps the door open.:wink:) You can run it as a specialty class at a IMPBA FE Nats. Same as above.

T.S.Davis
01-20-2017, 09:54 AM
MMEU did put some 10th scale rules on paper that we can use but like Doug said it's not a national class. That's okay by me too BTW. As the tech changes our club can change with it................if we want. The motor list for 1/8 scale is based on 10+ year old technology. We were racing 2280 motors in 2004 on Nimh. To run anything bigger than the motors on the list back then you needed 10s2p. Today I can finish a heat with a 2217 on 10s1p. The battery tech is much better. 10 years better. People still had VCR's in there houses.

Neither NAMBA's nor IMPBA's rendition of FE scale has brought all the kids to the yard. Both versions didn't get it done. Why? Who knows. I suspect that it comes down to what Don mentioned. It takes some serious dedication and learning to do it well. The plug and play speeds are so high right now that guys want a quick fix. "Why would I spend $2000+, months of building, engineering, painting, researching something that goes 62mph when I can buy a Zelos with a couple nice props to go just as fast right out of the box?" A handful of mods and you can get close to a 100 and you're still nowhere nearthe investment of a scale boat.

Really sell'n it here ain't I? haha

Maybe the answer is........find what we think will work on a given Sunday and run that. Do what we want. Put it on the fliers for those that need that but don't worry so much about the rule book. Clinging to the IMPBA rules isn't going to bring the boats out and having a loosey goosey set like we did in NAMBA didn't do it either. Hand wringing over registration of the (maybe) 5 boats that will show up in Michigan for the only 5 FE scale heats in North America? Really? Wait........do they have the IMPBA approved motors from the list that was dreamed up back in 2007 when the rule was written? Sorry, can't run! Stupid to even type it.

jaike5
01-20-2017, 03:25 PM
When I signed up it was a $5.00 life time fee , guess late comers have to pay yearly . I think it might be one of Steve's boats, but I got it from Pete.

Cheers, Jay.

jaike5
01-20-2017, 03:57 PM
What's not exciting about doing the roundy round at 60 plus mph with an 1/8th scale, can get pretty hairy on lap 4/5 with 4 scale boats running. lots of glass versions to drop running gear in that's not as hard on the pocket book, or building skills.

Cheers, Jay.

don ferrette
01-20-2017, 04:29 PM
I suspect that it comes down to what Don mentioned. It takes some serious dedication and learning to do it well. The plug and play speeds are so high right now that guys want a quick fix. "Why would I spend $2000+, months of building, engineering, painting, researching something that goes 62mph when I can buy a Zelos with a couple nice props to go just as fast right out of the box?" A handful of mods and you can get close to a 100 and you're still nowhere near the investment of a scale boat.DING! DING! DING! Give Terry a cigar once again. The "modelers" in this hobby are dying out as we are in the age of the "instant gratification I want it now" mentality. If someone wants to truly build an 1/8th scale they will and cost has nothing to do with it. As far as "approved" motors go anyone who is saying they won't build a scale because they don't want to spend the coin on a NEU or even a Lehner is handing out a line of crap. To build up a turn key FE scale and do it correctly is a couple grand minimum and a lot of time building and then testing at the pond to get it right. People have asked me in the past why I won't build 1/8th scales to sell outright and my reply is if I actually charged even a remotely fair rate for the amount of labor hours in building one it would be a $5000+ boat (and that was nitro). Why spend the time researching, documenting and duplicating a real unlimited that will run mid to upper 60s (or faster IF you are willing to spend the time) when you can fork over a fistful of cash to some of FE builders doing it for profit and get handed a 80+ plus mph turn key twin cat boat with a wow factor of 10. And this isn't limited to FE, seeing the same thing in gas scale, most guys building them already run nitro scales. Building a nice scale unlimited is a labor of love and something that conflicts with today's plug and play mindset.....

T.S.Davis
01-20-2017, 06:04 PM
Don, this holds true but less so with 10th scale too. You can get into a limited mono for little cash and race. Bada bing! Yer race'n.

10th scale is a tougher build, more tweaking, etc but way less cash out of pocket than an 1/8th. So we get guys willing to take a chance. They look really cool on the water and guys giggle when they run or even see them run. The enthusiasm is pretty contagious. Even for the grizzled vets. You can't help but want in on the fun. Zola has a Bud that rides so hard you think you can hear the driver screaming as he goes by. He better be wearing a mouth guard or something.

The pair of Neu I have used for scale were the most expensive motors I've ever purchased. Then 10s. Then a speedo that can handle it. It's not any one piece of the puzzle. It's the whole picture that makes it pricey. I love the look and feel of the 1/8 scales but you don't get quite the same spark from dudes when they have spent all that dough. My perception.

All the charging, plugging in 10s, countless hours to build...........place that $2k in the water and rely on the wisp of technology between you and it. Now throw in 3 or 4 more guys on the course. 5 boats is $10k+ circling the pond at WOT. Make a mistake......have a glitch........ugh. Pretty daunting. The instant gratification guys don't know what any of that really feels like. Not everyone can handle it.

jaike5
01-20-2017, 09:12 PM
Wish I had the wood skills to build an 1/8th scale, the whip 20 I tried to build was nothing short of hilarious !

Cheers, Jay.

TRUCKPULL
01-20-2017, 09:32 PM
Jay

I will build one for you, $20/Hr. plus material.

Larry

Speed810
01-20-2017, 10:30 PM
Well I felt had to weight in here again because I feel really responsible for this subject even being brought up. I had asked Terry about it when I started to read through the rules IMPBA had established on 1/8 scales which NAMBA did not have. I had built my ML boatworks Elam 1/8 scale according to NAMBA rules. Well after motor and ESC problems in 2016 I figured I would need to research the possibility of motoring up. I was not going to be close to being competitive with this heavy boat with a NEU 1527. Sure I can prop down and just run laps, but that was not why I built the boat. It was built to race.
Don & Doug ……I agree with you both. When I researched building a 1/8 scale, I was hooked after looking through every post on your builds and watching some of the boats running. Actually when we talk about this being a gentleman’s class I really think it could be considered the gentleman’s elite class because the building of an 1/8 scale is not like any build that you would incur with a sport boat and that includes an RTR – plug and play 1/8 scale. I think I just figured out what really makes it the special class and it’s the build not the driving or the motor. As Don said….”Building a nice scale unlimited is a labor of love”…… I could not agree more. I always thought it would be great to have the opportunity to meet you guys and get some 1/8 scale racing in while of course learning a ton of information. {i.e. Like Don….how the heck did you get your Elam light enough to be running in the 60’s…LOL}
When you have the amount of time, money and effort into a boat like this….believe me, the last thing you want to be is some crazy driver out there jeopardizing your boat or anyone else’s. But then during our MI cup event we did have that with one entry that Terry mentioned….an RTR Elam that was way to fast and unstable. Pretty scary for those of us that have the all this time and money into one of these.
I built this 1/8 scale on NAMBA rules with the intentions of being able to run it at not just the MI Cup race. It built this so I would have the opportunity to run it at other NAMBA scale events that had 1/8 scale built around the same set of rules. Not have an 1/8 scale for this club sponsored event and a complete different set of rules for another club open event. (Motors to be specific) That is just crazy. I would expect that IMPBA has a set of rules for 1/8 scale and all events under IMPBA would hold true.
I will however go with Terry on this that the motor specs or lack of a motor spec in IMPBA rules is not what should be a determining factor for maintaining the integrity of the class and the sport. I think Don pointed it very well and that’s the build. As Don has pointed out it could be easily $5,000 + for someone to build a nice built up 1/8 scale for someone. And of course some us already know the time and effort +$ put into these boats. So make it a spec 1/8 scale class where the hulls need to be a built up hull of plywood for bulk heads, sponson bulkheads, ply sheeting for hull and decking. All canopy’s fairings and mock up motors can be of fiberglass or formed plastic. Leave the motor specs open or at least include some options that gives some of us a chance to be competitive based on the design of the boat.
We all need to be willing to collaborate on this issue so that it will take us forward in a direction that will maintain the integrity of this 1/8 scale class and the drivers that run them. If you want to have no chance in generating new 1/8 scale builders and drivers or worse to have it die completely then let it go in the direction its going. We should not let change be our fear, but have it be our challenge. I think with the smart people we have here we should be able to move forward to a smart solution.

Doby
01-20-2017, 11:43 PM
IMPBA has motor specs...NAMBA doesn't.

Building is all fine and dandy...but that's not what makes a 1/8 scale hydro as per IMPBA rules (as stated above).

NAMBA has a master hull roster that controls what boats can be built (if I read their rule book correctly)...IMPBA does not (from what I have read). They have one for gas, but nothing in the rules in the FE section to tie it to FE 1/8ths.

So as Terry started this thread, and represents a IMPBA club...I'll assume that he's looking to get input on IMPBA 1/8ths.

So people can go on about the costs and time they have incurred in building these boats...but it doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.


And Jake, Pete got it from Ressor...I have a pic from our London days of Steve holding that boat he built:biggrin:


All of this also supports just how stupid it is that there are 2 boating orgs that are similar...but not the same...just different enough to drive people nuts and in some case throw up their hands in frustration.:scared:

Speed810
01-21-2017, 10:39 AM
Doby....Let me ask one thing; have you ever built one of these 1/8 scales. Because it sounds like maybe you have not and are missing the point. Unless you have actually built one of these and can understand and appreciate the time, effort and money that goes into them, then you will not understand the way the drivers of these boats are thinking about driving one of these in race conditions. Which as indicated by most is that it is not a deck to deck all out clash which can take place with a lot of sport racing. You will drive these much more cautious. I think the fear is that guys with the RTR turn key boats really are not thinking about that as much because they don't have the time, effort + $ into them like the actual builder does. Thus the way they are driven does not maybe have that same caution and respect for the other boat.

Believe me I saw this this past summer at the MI Cup race. I actually felt pretty relieved that I did not have a heat with a few of these drivers running RTR 1/8 scales because they were being driven on the edge to at times out of control. I don't think there was one thought given to the fact that they were racing with a few of these boats that took 6 to 7 months to build and an attention to detail that you could not even imagine.

So I respectively disagree with you........It has everything to do with this discussion when we started calling it the Gentlemen's class. Believe me I am very aware of both sets of rules. Again it is a question of being able to apply these rules across the board and not having to change event rules through a flier. If I want to enter an IMPBA event in ATL the rules should be the same as they are in any other IMPBA event. If there is a call for a more open class of 1/8 scale inclusive of the RTR then make a new class.

I still would like to see more productive discussion on the motor selection available in this class that gives us some more flexibility on our designs. Have been already been looking at building another 1/8 scale that will be a lot lighter in case we can not come to consensuses on this. Still think its a great class to get into.....:)



IMPBA has motor specs...NAMBA doesn't.

Building is all fine and dandy...but that's not what makes a 1/8 scale hydro as per IMPBA rules (as stated above).


NAMBA has a master hull roster that controls what boats can be built (if I read their rule book correctly)...IMPBA does not (from what I have read). They have one for gas, but nothing in the rules in the FE section to tie it to FE 1/8ths.

So as Terry started this thread, and represents a IMPBA club...I'll assume that he's looking to get input on IMPBA 1/8ths.

So people can go on about the costs and time they have incurred in building these boats...but it doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.


And Jake, Pete got it from Ressor...I have a pic from our London days of Steve holding that boat he built:biggrin:


All of this also supports just how stupid it is that there are 2 boating orgs that are similar...but not the same...just different enough to drive people nuts and in some case throw up their hands in frustration.:scared:

Doby
01-21-2017, 12:23 PM
I have a 1/8th Executone from Newton plans (I believe) that I bought several years ago from a builder/racer that is very familiar to the Michigan guys. Its a work of art and its built to run!..Pags and I have gone up against each other several times and when they are on the water, its balls to the wall. No other difference in our racing outlooks other than handshakes before and after.

Ever watch Ken Joye run his Atlas...again, great driving with pedal to the metal as well.

Everyone wants to win. If you choose to put your baby out there with others, things can happen unfortunately.

So you can respectfully disagree, but eventually all these boats will just be shelf queens if things keep going the way they do.

Speed810
01-21-2017, 01:19 PM
My question then would be do they meet the IMPBA motor class spec's?

If not, then why are we not pushing to change the IMPBA rules to get more of these on the water. There is no doubt that it will die a slow death if we do not re-evaluate the rules that are 10 to 12 years old and some that are not even being followed or some that do not even have a district scale chairman that we can do the proper registration.

I'm just trying to look at this from both directions and the pros and cons. And I believe I do understand each side. Again trying to keep an open mind on this issue so it can fit all modelers. I know we can not please everyone, but it should meet some MIDDLE GROUND someplace.

Almost thinking I'll motor up on this Elam and let it rip in what ever event I can enter it in....then build another around the 1527 motor that I know will fit any sanctioned IMPBA event. Sounds crazy that we should have to do that, but that is what we are being pushed to do if we want to have a competitive boat for various events. I know if Terry and the board at MMEU come up with a more open motor 1/8 scale event for the Cup race, I'm history with the way it is now.

Just ordered my TP 5660....not waiting....LOL

I have a 1/8th Executone from Newton plans (I believe) that I bought several years ago from a builder/racer that is very familiar to the Michigan guys. Its a work of art and its built to run!..Pags and I have gone up against each other several times and when they are on the water, its balls to the wall. No other difference in our racing outlooks other than handshakes before and after.

Ever watch Ken Joye run his Atlas...again, great driving with pedal to the metal as well.

Everyone wants to win. If you choose to put your baby out there with others, things can happen unfortunately.

So you can respectfully disagree, but eventually all these boats will just be shelf queens if things keep going the way they do.

Doby
01-21-2017, 01:36 PM
Mine had the big Plett in it that was allowed for IMPBA (it seized up 2 years ago), so I now want to get it back on the water. There are so many other viable options for motors now that are far less $$. Thats why I'm interested in this topic now. The motor limitations in IMPBA 1/8ths are similar to the P spec motor fiasco in NAMBA (although on a much lesser scale in class popularity).

Also, on the topic of overall costs of these boats, even if someone converts a ProBoat hydro to FE, by the time you are done, there is also a pretty significant financial investment on their behalf as well.

Both NAMBA and IMPBA need to get their crap together when it comes to a common set of rules for some classes. There should be no reason to have to worry about differing setups if a racer chooses to go to either orgs events to compete.

Doug Smock
01-21-2017, 02:31 PM
NAMBA & IMPBA aren't a couple of guys in black cloaks. They are it's membership i.e. you! :olleyes: If you want change put your key strokes to better use.:tongue:

If there isn't a Scale Dir. in your district you need to contact your DD and volunteer.
D13 didn't have one until I appointed one.:wink:

Speed810
01-21-2017, 02:44 PM
I agree Doby!! It sure would make things easier to understand. At times I wonder if folks are actually intimidated by the class because of rules or lack of understanding etc.... Don't disagree on the all out cost on a conversion, but the amount of work and workmanship on an all built up 1/8 hydro is quite a bit more involved.

Hopefully we can come up with something that will meet our needs....:)



Mine had the big Plett in it that was allowed for IMPBA (it seized up 2 years ago), so I now want to get it back on the water. There are so many other viable options for motors now that are far less $$. Thats why I'm interested in this topic now. The motor limitations in IMPBA 1/8ths are similar to the P spec motor fiasco in NAMBA (although on a much lesser scale in class popularity).

Also, on the topic of overall costs of these boats, even if someone converts a ProBoat hydro to FE, by the time you are done, there is also a pretty significant financial investment on their behalf as well.

Both NAMBA and IMPBA need to get their crap together when it comes to a common set of rules for some classes. There should be no reason to have to worry about differing setups if a racer chooses to go to either orgs events to compete.

Fluid
01-21-2017, 03:09 PM
There is a reason there are two different racing organizations, just like the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois party - two different philosophies on how things should be run. To demand that both organizations somehow "get their **** together" and agree on the same rules is totally unrealistic. Why should they? For the good of the people? :roflol:

Like Doug says, if you want change you have to initiate it. Just like not voting for President then complaining about who won - you have little right to complain.

.

Speed810
01-21-2017, 03:13 PM
Hey Doug.....That's funny "guys in black cloaks"....LOL Like XMen!!!....:laugh:
Though I understand its our membership that makes these decisions....I think what this thread is trying to establish is to get an idea if some of these ideas or combination there of, would be something that would work for them and help grow the class.

This is only my 3rd year in this sport, but I would have to think that Terry and the district would only feel comfortable with submitting something if we felt that we were close to having a consensus where we would be benefitting the majority. Personally I would be looking at some of our veteran 1/8 scaler's (As you, Don...etc) that have a lot of experience in this. It would be nice to see if there was a middle line that some guys could live with and keeping the class fun and competitive. There are a few folks out there that seem to have concrete shoes on and don't want to budge. Lets see if we have a possible direction we can agree on then submit proposals. :thumbup1:

What do ya think Doug? ....Am I looking at the process wrong? Let me know...Thanks.

Also Note::......TERRY....If we need a assignment for the scale district rep I would be interested in doing that.



NAMBA & IMPBA aren't a couple of guys in black cloaks. They are it's membership i.e. you! :olleyes: If you want change put your key strokes to better use.:tongue:

If there isn't a Scale Dir. in your district you need to contact your DD and volunteer.
D13 didn't have one until I appointed one.:wink:

Speed810
01-21-2017, 03:17 PM
There is a reason there are two different racing organizations, just like the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois party - two different philosophies on how things should be run. To demand that both organizations somehow "get their **** together" and agree on the same rules is totally unrealistic. Why should they? For the good of the people? :roflol:

Like Doug says, if you want change you have to initiate it. Just like not voting for President then complaining about who won - you have little right to complain.

.


I agree Jay... Think that's a fight for another day....LOL :iagree:

So what is your thought on this and IMPBA motor rules?

Fluid
01-21-2017, 04:56 PM
I am torn in two directions. One is that because these are never "cheap" builds, why limit the power by a cost-limit rule? If a guy wants to run a Lehner 2280 or 3060 why not let him? Afterall, this is NOT a beginners class.

OTOH, if we want to bring scale gas racers into the fold perhaps we should soften the blow money-wise. Limiting speed and cost makes the transition easier for them, and it also keeps the boats 'slower' to reduce the chances of catastrophic damage to these expensive boats. I supported using the 40mm ~850 Kv motors in my District 7 because a bunch of gas racers wanted to run FE and this helped. But regardless of what we do, we will never have a lot of 1/8th scale boats.


.

Doby
01-21-2017, 05:20 PM
There is a reason there are two different racing organizations, just like the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois party - two different philosophies on how things should be run. To demand that both organizations somehow "get their **** together" and agree on the same rules is totally unrealistic. Why should they? For the good of the people? :roflol:



.

Why shouldn't they get their crap together...be better for all. Two different philosophies on classes that are so similar, but just different enough to add confusion and make some boats illegal to run in different orgs is STUPID.

Speed810
01-21-2017, 06:26 PM
I am torn in two directions. One is that because these are never "cheap" builds, why limit the power by a cost-limit rule? If a guy wants to run a Lehner 2280 or 3060 why not let him? Afterall, this is NOT a beginners class.

OTOH, if we want to bring scale gas racers into the fold perhaps we should soften the blow money-wise. Limiting speed and cost makes the transition easier for them, and it also keeps the boats 'slower' to reduce the chances of catastrophic damage to these expensive boats. I supported using the 40mm ~850 Kv motors in my District 7 because a bunch of gas racers wanted to run FE and this helped. But regardless of what we do, we will never have a lot of 1/8th scale boats.


.

I never say Never Jay!! You just never know. But the biggest problem is it is difficult to find modelers that actually will take the time it takes to build these scale boats. Its the same thing in scale aircraft building. Not much out there and its a select group of modelers that have a love for detail and watching them fly like the real thing. Pretty exciting. The only difference is we don't usually race them...:laugh:

I understand the use of the 40mm motor for the Gas guys wanting to run FE. But if motor specs were expanded a bit more it certainly would not hurt the gas guys.....Do ya think??

Terry Keeley
02-03-2017, 07:34 PM
Well...if we want to follow the rules...how many of us with 1/8ths have done this???

2. Registration Procedures
a. All boats must be registered with the District 1/8 scale Chairman.
b. The District Chairman will require the following information in writing:
I. Name, address and phone number.
II. IMPBA number.
III. Unlimited name, year raced, and number.
IV. Length and beam of prototype boat and model.
V. Prototype designer and boat colors.
VI. Must submit a photo of prototype boat.
VII. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.
c. Boat must compete at a racing event within one year from registration.



Felt really bad about it but we had to disallow a record at Flint a few years back because the boat wasn't registered per the rules...:sad:

Doug Smock
02-03-2017, 09:29 PM
Felt really bad about it but we had to disallow a record at Flint a few years back because the boat wasn't registered per the rules...:sad:

Hi Terry,
The motor didn't fit the rules either IIRC.

T.S.Davis
02-04-2017, 10:31 AM
I believe that was Ken's squire that was disallowed.

Honestly, I don't believe anything we do is going to make the class "take off". It's high dollar, high skill, and time prohibitive. We cooked up the scale class in 2004 I think with no rules. It was loose as a goose. "OH! Let's do 1/8 scale on 10s! Cool! Bring it". We got a handful. 2006 we put it on paper. Linked it to the roster. Still 10s but no other limits. We wanted guys to show up. We saw boats for the cup but never more than 2 flights. IMPBA added scale maybe 2008 or so. There were some actual heats at the Northern Nat's but that was about it. There were some venue that allowed the FE scales to run with nitro. Alan destroyed everyone even with the limit. In fairness, he is one of the top 5 drivers I've ever seen. Guys he beat only saw that he ran FE. The effort to get them on the water with nitro was then a bust.

Point is, nothing we've tried has made the class flourish.

My thoughts are that we might as well let the class evolve. Nothing else has worked. "What if we get it wrong?". That's like stabing a racoon wrong after you ran him over with your car. He's already dead.

MMEU is in its IMPBA infancy. Most that know me/us/MMEU know that we're not afraid to get involved at the organizational level if it makes sense. The district director's home pond is also our home pond. I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to talk with him. He's also a scale super freak.

Terry Keeley
02-04-2017, 12:48 PM
I believe that was Ken's squire that was disallowed.




You should get him to dot the I's and cross the T's and come on back for the oval, it's only 25.918 sec.

Don's SAW record would be a little more challenging tho at 100.089 mph! :ohmy:

Doug Smock
02-04-2017, 05:43 PM
You should get him to dot the I's and cross the T's and come on back for the oval, it's only 25.918 sec.

Don's SAW record would be a little more challenging tho at 100.089 mph! :ohmy:

I was at the console when Don set that record. It was pretty cool seeing a Scale running that fast.

Doug Smock
02-04-2017, 06:11 PM
Here you go Terry D. We'll just adopt this. (found on a IW FE Scale thread)

This is what is allowed per the R/C Unlimited rulebook;

Power and Drive Train:

Motor: -NEU 1527 1.5Y

Experimental options for 2013 -Scorpion 4035-800 -Turnigy SK3 Fandrive- 3994-850kv

Batteries: -8S1P configured Lithium Polymer (LiPo) battery(s).

The total capacity of batteries in the allowed chemistries and configurations shall not exceed a total capacity rating of 6,000 mAH.

Only LiPo batteries with a manufacturer’s minimum discharge rate of 30C constant but no higher than a 65C constant shall be allowed. There is a maximum $200.00 msrp per set limit.

Speed Controller: -Any speed controller may be used as long as it is a minimum of 150Amps.

-For safety, anti-spark resistors are advised on all speed controllers.

Propeller: -Any propeller may be used up to a maximum of 57MM diameter.

TRUCKPULL
02-04-2017, 06:25 PM
There is a maximum $200.00 msrp per set limit.

Good 4S packs go for about $110 now.

What year was that price set.
Will it be OK if you by them on Sale??????????:confused2:

Larry

Doug Smock
02-04-2017, 07:03 PM
The site hasn't been update FE wise since 13 I guess.
http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/fe

Doby
02-04-2017, 07:33 PM
More mystery source rules always help to clear things up:doh:

Doby
02-04-2017, 07:44 PM
Interesting...if you go to the home page...

http://www.rcunlimiteds.com/

They have a nice vid of a race where on the first lap, there is a collision...and several laps in there is another..etc

I suppose the "gentleman's" class rules don't seem to apply (no matter how expensive the boats are)...everyone wants to win and will race as such.

Doug Smock
02-04-2017, 08:25 PM
Maybe they're on to something! :wink: Power a Scale for under 5 bills!!

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/graphene-5000mah-4s-65c-w-xt90.html X2 $171.38 ea.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-sk3-fandrive-3994-850kv-120mm-edf.html $108.37
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-aquastar-200a-watercooled-sensorless-esc.html $153.13

TRUCKPULL
02-05-2017, 02:16 AM
Doug

I was thinking more along this line.
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=rev-ys5000

I do not know what the msrp is though.

I think these cells are way better, I have beat on mine a little and show no drop in power or run time.

Larry

Doby
02-05-2017, 11:15 AM
Larry...those cells are 70C (:olleyes:) and therefore not allowed as per the new set of internet rules:doh:

TRUCKPULL
02-05-2017, 01:01 PM
Larry...those cells are 70C (:olleyes:) and therefore not allowed as per the new set of internet rules:doh:

John
Those rules are 3 years old.(need updating)
They are rules for one club only.
NOT IMPBA or NAMBA

Larry

Doby
02-05-2017, 05:19 PM
I know that:olleyes:....but as Dougee seemed to want to murky up the waters even more, may as well have some fun with it:wink:

Doby
02-05-2017, 05:20 PM
This discussion should be limited to IMPBA as it was started by the Michigan guys (who dumped NAMBA)

Doug Smock
02-05-2017, 06:54 PM
I know that:olleyes:....but as Dougee seemed to want to murky up the waters even more, may as well have some fun with it:wink:

You don't like that rule set? Yeah I know!
Just wanted to point out the fact that it could be worse. :biggrin:

Doby
02-05-2017, 07:02 PM
You don't like that rule set? Yeah I know!
Just wanted to point out the fact that it could be worse. :biggrin:

Figured thats what you were doing...lets Google more rules..I'm sure there are more out there somewhere!

raptor347
02-05-2017, 08:05 PM
Two comments.

1. The RCU rules may look ridiculous to the outsider, but it's the only club I know of that fields several heats of FE 1/8 scale at every club race.

2. Just because you have the time/money/interest to build an 1/8 scale doesn't mean you'll be able to drive it well in traffic. Like every other class, you have some great drivers and some at the other end of the bell curve.

Doug Smock
02-05-2017, 09:27 PM
:doh:

Doby
02-06-2017, 12:14 AM
[QUOTE=raptor347;683561]Two comments.

1. The RCU rules may look ridiculous to the outsider, but it's the only club I know of that fields several heats of FE 1/8 scale at every club race.

Brian:

I don't think anyone said the rules look ridiculous...and as you said, its working for them..thats what its all about.

Perhaps the venues/clubs that actually have a chance of fielding enough 1/8ths for an particular event should just say damn the rules (IMPBA/NAMBA) and come up with their own to suit the racers /boats that they hope to attract.

Its all about getting boats on the water.

raptor347
02-06-2017, 01:23 AM
Ridiculous probably wasn't an appropriate description, certainly very limiting. I'm also not sure they haven't modified the club rules since then. I know they're running HET motors as well.

don ferrette
02-09-2017, 08:50 AM
Perhaps the venues/clubs that actually have a chance of fielding enough 1/8ths for an particular event should just say damn the rules (IMPBA/NAMBA) and come up with their own to suit the racers /boats that they hope to attract.

Its all about getting boats on the water.Damn the rules?? Seriously?? Reality check on aisle one please! While I'm all about getting boats in the water the rules are there for a reason and God forbid there were to be a serious accident while not following "the rules". Just the kind of thing insurance underwriters look for to get out of a claim. Sadly we live in the age of liability and litigation and following the organization approved rules is a must. In the past we have seen litigation from an accident the person suing actually created by not following "the rules". Those rules and the fact the person chose to not follow them is want saved the org from being on the losing end of that. If you don't like the rules then write and submit a proposal to change them. Telling people damn the organization's rules and just make up your own is foolishness at the very least............

Doby
02-09-2017, 11:59 AM
Damn the rules?? Seriously?? Reality check on aisle one please! While I'm all about getting boats in the water the rules are there for a reason and God forbid there were to be a serious accident while not following "the rules". Just the kind of thing insurance underwriters look for to get out of a claim. Sadly we live in the age of liability and litigation and following the organization approved rules is a must. In the past we have seen litigation from an accident the person suing actually created by not following "the rules". Those rules and the fact the person chose to not follow them is want saved the org from being on the losing end of that. If you don't like the rules then write and submit a proposal to change them. Telling people damn the organization's rules and just make up your own is foolishness at the very least............

OK, chill pill required.....:olleyes:

From the IMPBA General Rules of Competition section of the Rule Book:

"IV - GENERAL
A. Sanctioned races will be run in accordance with all the rules in the IMPBA Rule Book. If a club wishes
to deviate from these rules, the deviations must be prominently displayed on the race entry form. If a
situation arises forcing a change from the established rules, it must be approved by a majority vote of
the contestants at the drivers' meeting prior to the race. Under no circumstances may a rule be
waived or altered that would reduce the safety of the event."

I read this that as long as safety isn't affected, then anything can be deviated from as long as its on the entry form and nobody has a problem with it.

Don, as you are apparently an IMPBA Tech Hydro guy, I would hope you would have know this. It is after all, in the rule book. :w00t:

All I'm trying to get at is for both Orgs to have a common set of rules for all classes. It makes more sense and would cause less headaches for anyone wanting to race their boats at both NAMBA and IMPBA events.

Its all about getting boats on the water.:wink:


I did find this little tidbit in the NAMBA rules, #2 is of particular concern:

C. ENTRY LIMITATIONS AND QUALIFICATIONS
1. Contestants in all NAMBA competitions will be limited to one boat per type/class in
each event or competition.
2. Two or more entrants may not race the same hull in the same class.

I guess all the NAMBA races over the years that have allowed numerous Motley Crews/Miss Geicos/ Whiplashes/FE 30's/Delta Forces/Revolts/Pusuits etc....to run together in their respective class's (not heats) have been breaking a pretty major rule. It could be applicable 2 of the same 1/8ths show up at a NAMBA race as well.

If a NAMBA club was to follow that rule (like the Michigan guys used to be) then all the MOST POPULAR CLASSES at the past years Michigan Cups would not even have been run.

Boats on the water = common sense.

T.S.Davis
02-09-2017, 12:04 PM
Only the safety rules jeopardize insurance coverage Don. Been through that a hundred times now. Guys want it to be different than that but it isn't.

I just passed the the CD test for IMPBA. One of the test questions asks if an LSG27 can bump up to LSG36. LSG 36 has a minimum C.I. in the book yet the 27 boats have been allowed to jump up to LSG36 for years. Done all the time apparently. Don, are you suggesting that in so doing the events were un-insured?

Honestly, after digging into the book and learning, it's not that difficult to propose a rule change. Nothing we're doing is getting boats on the water either way so why not make it as easy as possible to just be correct. We need 5 signatures and a district director or a chairman to send it to the BOD. The BOD decides what to do with it from there. There are multiple options for the BOD from there. It's sort of a sanity check. I like it. Keeps people from just passing something nutty. The BOD can squash a racing class where the boats have torpedo tubes for instance....................that actually sounds fun.

Also, for electric scale, I don't feel registration should be required either. For what? There are no district races for FE to justify the $5 fee for awards. There's no provision for us to run them with nitro. Why register them? It's silly IMO.

All that said, deviations from the book are allowed provided they are made part of the event advertising for the class (so racers know what to expect) AND so long as they don't violate the safety rules. I mean we can't just advertise that we're allowing plutonium cells or some such madness but scales with an open motor spec are just really pretty T sport boats so they aren't a safety issue. We couldn't ignore say the 25 pound limit or anything like that.

NativePaul
02-09-2017, 01:49 PM
"2. Two or more entrants may not race the same hull in the same class."
I guess all the NAMBA races over the years that have allowed numerous Motley Crews/Miss Geicos/ Whiplashes/FE 30's/Delta Forces/Revolts/Pusuits etc....to run together in their respective class's (not heats) have been breaking a pretty major rule. It could be applicable 2 of the same 1/8ths show up at a NAMBA race as well.
If a NAMBA club was to follow that rule (like the Michigan guys used to be) then all the MOST POPULAR CLASSES at the past years Michigan Cups would not even have been run.

To me that reads differently to the way you are reading it Doby. I think it means that if you bring a friend/family racing, you can't both run your boat, you running it in heat 1 and then doing a quick battery swap and them running it 5 mins later in heat 2. You have to bow out of the class so he can run your boat, or lend him a spare if you have one, nothing to do with multiple hulls from the same few molds with the same paint jobs.

Doesn't NAMBA's master hull roster prevent 2 of the same 1:8 scales from showing up at the same event?

T.S.Davis
02-09-2017, 01:59 PM
Doesn't NAMBA's master hull roster prevent 2 of the same 1:8 scales from showing up at the same event?

No. The roster is just historical data of the full scale boats. Length, width, tunnel widths. That kind of thing. Why they call it a "roster" isn't clear to me.

I believe Paul is reading that "same hull" rule correctly.

T.S.Davis
02-09-2017, 02:13 PM
Boats on the water = common sense.

This has always been my thinking too. This hobby being as small as it is we're always going to be walking that fine line between competition and just fun run'n. If we're going to ignore this/that/those/them rules why have any at all? Why have a course? Why call it racing? Let's just chase each other around.

This is the argument. At some point we're not even racing anymore. We'll be dancing around that forever IMO.

In my head, for any given event, put yer finger in the wind and go with what will put butts on the driver stand and boats on the water. Don't create any unnecessary safety issues. Publish accordingly and go race.

Doby
02-09-2017, 03:55 PM
To me that reads differently to the way you are reading it Doby. I think it means that if you bring a friend/family racing, you can't both run your boat, you running it in heat 1 and then doing a quick battery swap and them running it 5 mins later in heat 2. You have to bow out of the class so he can run your boat, or lend him a spare if you have one, nothing to do with multiple hulls from the same few molds with the same paint jobs.

Doesn't NAMBA's master hull roster prevent 2 of the same 1:8 scales from showing up at the same event?

See, and I read it the other way..and thats part of the problems with some of the rules...ambiguity.

T.S.Davis
02-09-2017, 05:16 PM
I was marked wrong on one of the CD safety questions because the book says something "should" be done but the question asks specifically if it "must" be done.

Should is not must/shall. Semantics matter sometimes. Subtle but there is a difference.

http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/modal3.html

Makes me question other places the book uses "should". Are those in fact required or just recommended practices? I can tell you with absolute certainty that some are routinely ignored as suggestions at multiple venue I've raced at.

NativePaul
02-10-2017, 04:43 AM
I am not after the rules as such, but I am curious to know what scale racers think of fictitious boats. I want to make a Tide hydro, but I know there is already a Tide here in the UK, and while I love the boat I would like it to be unique just in case we met up for an informal race sometime. My racing colours are very similar to Miss Bardahl, so I would like to do that scheme, but I wonder if it would be frowned upon to make an early '90s modern Miss Bardahl that never existed?

Doby
02-10-2017, 11:05 AM
I personally like the idea of fictitious paint schemes on boats:thumbup1:

But....that would be against the rules here...not sure about across the pond though.

don ferrette
02-10-2017, 11:28 PM
Only the safety rules jeopardize insurance coverage Don. Been through that a hundred times now. Guys want it to be different than that but it isn't. True to a point, but this wasn't a selective thing rather just the broad brush stroke of the statement of "damn the rules". But hey let's play devil's advocate for a minute........

So a club says "damn the rules" and decides 12S is ok for a class. Not really a safety thing as plenty of boaters that "don't race" run 12S right? So let's say there's a bad accident and someone gets seriously injured by a 12S powered boat. The first thing an insurance underwriter will look at is a way to get out of a claim. Guess what? By organization rules that wasn't a legally recognized boat, what was it doing running in a sanctioned INSURED event? Seem far fetched? Sadly it's not as I've seen and had enough experience with these bottom feeders to know that they will do anything to get out of paying a claim. Common sense would dictate that it being a 10 or 12S boat wouldn't have prevented the accident but that's not how it would work in the legal world. It sucks but it is what it is............

Doby
02-11-2017, 12:23 AM
True to a point, but this wasn't a selective thing rather just the broad brush stroke of the statement of "damn the rules". But hey let's play devil's advocate for a minute........

So a club says "damn the rules" and decides 12S is ok for a class. Not really a safety thing as plenty of boaters that "don't race" run 12S right? So let's say there's a bad accident and someone gets seriously injured by a 12S powered boat. The first thing an insurance underwriter will look at is a way to get out of a claim. Guess what? By organization rules that wasn't a legally recognized boat, what was it doing running in a sanctioned INSURED event? Seem far fetched? Sadly it's not as I've seen and had enough experience with these bottom feeders to know that they will do anything to get out of paying a claim. Common sense would dictate that it being a 10 or 12S boat wouldn't have prevented the accident but that's not how it would work in the legal world. It sucks but it is what it is............


Well Don, as the IMPBA "Safety Rules" clearly have a Max voltage listed, 12S would not be allowed to run.

As Terry stated, the safety rules are the ones that can't be "damned".

Perhaps I should have said "Damn the rules, except for the safety ones"...would that have made you feel better?

For you to state that 12S is "not really a safety thing" is a bit alarming.:blink:

K.R.Joye
02-23-2017, 02:59 PM
Well...if we want to follow the rules...how many of us with 1/8ths have done this???

2. Registration Procedures
a. All boats must be registered with the District 1/8 scale Chairman.
b. The District Chairman will require the following information in writing:
I. Name, address and phone number.
II. IMPBA number.
III. Unlimited name, year raced, and number.
IV. Length and beam of prototype boat and model.
V. Prototype designer and boat colors.
VI. Must submit a photo of prototype boat.
VII. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The
registrant will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration.
Approved form must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for
high point district trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.
c. Boat must compete at a racing event within one year from registration.

In the advent of FE Scale, Reesor & I followed the rules(above) when nobody else really cared in FE. Primarily to set an example an some IMPBA records. Still have my scale card somewhere, however we gave up after a while when all the ugly boats started creeping into competition(not you John). Would be nice to see IMPBA FE Scale grow (no matter what the rules are) just don't forget the fundamentals. The boats should appear and operate similar to the a identical boat that competed in Unlimited Hydro competition.

I'm hoping to get back into Scale this year with my`Atlas' and a Scale`Miller High Life' hull project boat for the future. Friendly respectful competition is what I seek, not the latest monster motor overpowering another boat class. I could do that in P & Q etc. Sport (whatever IMPBA equivalent is). I'd like to be included in the loop if you guys plan on changing Scale rules first year clubs start rolling over into the IMPBA.
Should be interesting!

T.S.Davis
01-10-2018, 01:07 PM
Back from the dead this thread.....

1527/1.5y is on the list and is the most common scale motor. It's 825kv, 40mm x 105.5mm, 4 pole and weighs in at right around 618 grams.
If there was a motor that was say 810kv, 59mmx81mm, weighed in at 690grams but had 10 poles would that seem apples to apples? So more weight and more than twice the pole count.

It's a trick question. Some will recognize the numbers.

Doby
01-11-2018, 12:06 PM
spec the can size an voltage...KISS.

K.R.Joye
01-11-2018, 01:28 PM
Back from the dead this thread.....

1527/1.5y is on the list and is the most common scale motor. It's 825kv, 40mm x 105.5mm, 4 pole and weighs in at right around 618 grams.
If there was a motor that was say 810kv, 59mmx81mm, weighed in at 690grams but had 10 poles would that seem apples to apples? So more weight and more than twice the pole count.

It's a trick question. Some will recognize the numbers.

Still running 10S I assume, would not have any objections.

photohoward1
01-11-2018, 01:55 PM
Back from the dead this thread.....

1527/1.5y is on the list and is the most common scale motor. It's 825kv, 40mm x 105.5mm, 4 pole and weighs in at right around 618 grams.
If there was a motor that was say 810kv, 59mmx81mm, weighed in at 690grams but had 10 poles would that seem apples to apples? So more weight and more than twice the pole count.

It's a trick question. Some will recognize the numbers.

Can of worms. Those motors were never any better than the Neu. SOUNDED WAY BETTER THOUGH! Makes the boats sound like Turbines.

T.S.Davis
01-11-2018, 03:53 PM
Yes Howard, but back in 2008 or so when the rules were written we were running 25c cells on 160amp esc. Some even less. Those were the weak links. Today you could run a 300amp flier and use more of the 10pole torque without baking it. In theory of course. Who knows what happens to the Plett at say 220 amps really. How it would stack against the Neu at the same draw isn't exactly clear either.

Didn't Alan, run the Plett for an entire season against the nitro boys without losing a single heat? Were there any other sparkies in that mix? Can't remember.

Point is, three entirely different motors with much different can sizes, different parameters entirely really. All on the list currently.

Today, if you want one of the Plett motors they have to make you one as they prefer to sell their newer Kima motor. The Kima is in a similar can but has fewer poles. I knew you would recognize the numbers Howard. Especially with us having recently talked about these.

The old Plett is about $850 delivered and takes 8 weeks
Lehner 2280 is about $785 delivered
Neu is about $325 delivered

The Plett does come with a water jacket. The Lehner will need one as will the Neu. Makes the Lehner and the Plett about the same investment. Go figure. Neu is the cheapo route.

A 56mmx83mm 6 pole TP is $159 plus shipping. Comes with a jacket. So only a little cheaper. 80% or so.