Huge difference between esc temps and motor temps

[RuntheraceAMC]

I recently blew up my Raider 150 (my fault. Running way too many amps). I bought the ETTI 220a ProII and love this esc. It lays down the power. But.... My temps have me scratching my head.

My set up: DFE 36, Leo 4092 1730kv, 648 prop, batteries: 5s 1p 70c; 6s2p 45c, 6s1p 70c. COG is 10 inches from the transom. 33" from transom to tip.

On the raider I would see 110-125. Motor up to 110F

On the new esc.... 5s: motor 90F. Esc 140F. 6s: motor 105 esc 155-160

Could it be timing? I thought I had it at 2.5 but this esc is hard to program. Am I missing something?

[JimClark]

How long do you run? Or how much is left in the lips after a run?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[RuntheraceAMC]

That's a 5 min run. Just sport running with half a dozen full throttle passes

[RuntheraceAMC]

I'm not sure what you mean by how much is left in the lipos after each run? I run them down to 3.2-3.3 per cell each time I use them

[JimClark]

That's a 5 min run. Just sport running with half a dozen full throttle passes
So you are you at low throttle a fair amount of time?

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[RuntheraceAMC]

No. Half to 3/4 throttle for half the passes and full or near full throttle for the other half for a solid 5 mins

[Fluid]

How many mAh do you put back in the packs after a run compared to the total pack capacity? We need to know more than 6S2P etc, we need to know the total mAh for each setup.

Are you timing the runs or just guessing? That alone could be the reason especially if there is a difference in pack capacity.


.

[RuntheraceAMC]

My 5s and 6s packs are 5000 mah. I am putting 4600-4900 back in them each time I charge. On one or two occasions I have recharged them and it was over 5000 mah. My last run (when I noticed the abnormally high temps) it charged and it took 4800.

I also have two 6s packs I am running in parallel. 4100 each for 8200 total. I am recharging them 7200-8000 each time.

I don't time my runs. I quit when I notice a drop in performance.

[NativePaul]

Your packs wont last long treating them like that.
.

[fweasel]

Your packs wont last long treating them like that
I agree. I set my LVC to 3.2V in my Zelos and my 3S packs usually read 3.55V when I bring the boat in after 3.5min. In my other two boats that don't draw as many amps, my packs come back closer to 3.7V after about 5min runs.

[TRUCKPULL]

My 5s and 6s packs are 5000 mah. I am putting 4600-4900 back in them each time I charge. On one or two occasions I have recharged them and it was over 5000 mah. My last run (when I noticed the abnormally high temps) it charged and it took 4800.

I also have two 6s packs I am running in parallel. 4100 each for 8200 total. I am recharging them 7200-8000 each time.

I don't time my runs. I quit when I notice a drop in performance.

A 5000 pack -- Recharging to 4800
This means that you are running your packs down to 4%

6S 2P 8200 packs --- Recharging to 8000
This means that you are running your packs down to 2 1/2%

These numbers are way too low.
You will start seeing the magic smoke if you keep this up.:flashfire:
You could be causing a lot of extra heat when the voltage drops.

The old rule for LiPo's for them to last for a good number of cycles is ;
Never charge over 98% and Never discharge below 20%

I run 2P setups of 10,000 total for racing.
My run times are about 2 min.
My packs are usually down to about 45%

My suggestion to you would do some testing; run 2 min. recharge to see what you got left.
Try again at 2 1/2 or maybe 3 min.
When you find your right point, then always time your runs.

Larry

[RuntheraceAMC]

As you can tell.... I had no idea

[srislash]

It's a learning curve. After awhile you just kinda get used to a 'time'. But run a timer, it will save you money in the long run. Run two sets of packs to get your fill, it is better than running one set and killing it in months, or less.

[Fluid]

The OP's temperatures are higher with the 6S2P setup because they ran a lot longer before they hit the LVC. As mentioned above, running the packs so low will shorten their lives and performance as well as heating everything up.


.

[785boats]

RuntheraceDMC
Keep a copy of this chart handy. Time your runs. Check your cell voltages after each run, & compare them with the chart to see where you're at with run time & discharge.

147501

fweasle.
As you see on the chart, at 3.55v, you are seriously overdischarging your packs.
Resting voltage after a run should be above 3.7v/cell.
I'd raise your cutoff setting a bit to prolong the life of your packs.

[RuntheraceAMC]

Thanks for the chart

[785boats]

You are most welcome.
But even better is one of these cell checkers.
They give you voltages, and capacity remaining as a percentage. For both pack, and individual cells. Very handy little unit.

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=emp-eossentry3

Also try not to run at part throttle too much. That's is a quick way to burn out an ESC.

[fweasel]

fweasle.
As you see on the chart, at 3.55v, you are seriously overdischarging your packs.
Resting voltage after a run should be above 3.7v/cell.
I'd raise your cutoff setting a bit to prolong the life of your packs.
Thanks for the tip. I had to lower my LVC to 3.2V because it was tripping too early at 3.4V. The boat runs much better now and I'm in the process of fine tuning my run times on a 2 pack configuration. 3.55V was after 3.5min, next time out I'll stop at 3min until I start running with 4 batteries.

[785boats]

Are you sure it was tripping too early? Or was it tripping at the right time to leave the packs at over 3.7v/cell, ie 20% capacity remaining, when at rest?

[boredom.is.me]

Forget the battery stuff for a minute. What about motor timing? If you were running at default on both, that may have something to do with it. Or would that only cause the motor to get hot?

[RuntheraceAMC]

That's what was confusing to me. If it's timing, why isn't the motor hot. Even with the battery talk. Why is my esc 140-150 and the motor is at 90-100. If it was too much prop the motor would be hotter too

[NativePaul]

I don't know either of your ESCs but if the ETTI has default switching frequency that can cause much higher ESC temps and depending on the motor the motor may see no difference.

[RuntheraceAMC]

Are you saying that I constantly have to reprogram the timing. It's switching the timing on its own?

[srislash]

I believe Paul is reffering to the PWM. Do you recall modifying that step? I will have a look at one of my manuals when I am up and moving for the default setting.
Also, Do you have a cap bank on it as recommended by them? Always a good idea

[RuntheraceAMC]

What is the PWM? Yes I have the extra bank of 5 caps. Total of 7 caps. 147509

[srislash]

What is the PWM? Yes I have the extra bank of 5 caps. Total of 7 caps. 147509
Ok well I see a Y split in the water line, turf that. You may only be effectivivly cooling half the ESC. This is foremost! And while we are on that, water in to ESC then to motor. Is this how it is routed?
What size connectors and how much wire between batteries and ESC? Shorter is better. What I am looking at is the yellow connection block as a possible problem.

We will get to PWM

[RuntheraceAMC]

I have separate water lines to motor. As for the Y's. I heard this many times but I can't just remove the cooling set up I have without tearing out everything. Next time I need to pull out everything I will be eliminating the Y's. But why we are on this subject: there are four cooling tubes on the esc, two on each side stacked vertically on top of each other. Each side has water from a separate pick up. I ran hose with 4mm inside diameter to the Y and then after the Y about 2" of hose (3mm inside diamete) to each cooling tube. This means minimal line after the Y with no kinks or severe bends. But even if flow is restricted to one they are stacked on top of each other so cooling is getting to at least one of them on each side. Plus the cooling plates on top are getting cooling to at least one.

I realize there is a better way to do this but it can't be horrible the way it is. It has to be getting some cooling.

I am using XT90 connectors for the batteries and 8mm bullets from the esc to the motor. I'll send some pics of the battery wires and my parrellel connector wires. All wires are 10 gauge

[RuntheraceAMC]

147510147510147511147512147513147514

[Mxkid261]

I would ditch those XT90 connectors those have like 4.5mm bullets. 6.5 castle connectors would be a much better option

[srislash]

I am suspect of the XT90 plug as well as the cooling lines. I looked the XT's up and cant find the size of bullit. But the dimensions of the housing that I found would not allow big enough connectors for this. How can one expect to give enough power to warrent 8mm connectors at the motor when the battery connector is only 5mm? If it is even that. Neat connector though with the anti spark but you should have 8mm there too. Anti spark is not really necessary for 6s.

[srislash]

I would ditch those XT90 connectors those have like 4.5mm bullets. 6.5 castle connectors would be a much better option

This is what I use. If I need to run 2p I run a T with two 6.5's into one 8mm.

Like these147515

if you want a set I can send you these, I made a few of them

[RuntheraceAMC]

Could the connectors be causing the esc heat issues?

[RuntheraceAMC]

Any pics or links to these castle connectors?

[srislash]

Any pics or links to these castle connectors?

Look at my above post, I have edited

[Mxkid261]

I am suspect of the XT90 plug as well as the cooling lines. I looked the XT's up and cant find the size of bullit. But the dimensions of the housing that I found would not allow big enough connectors for this. How can one expect to give enough power to warrent 8mm connectors at the motor when the battery connector is only 5mm? If it is even that. Neat connector though with the anti spark but you should have 8mm there too. Anti spark is not really necessary for 6s.

I just looked it up and they are indeed only 4.5mm bullets in the xt90 connector which is way to small for the OP's setup. 5.5mm bullets at minimum, 6.5 castle connectors would be a better. I too think all those water lines/fittings are unnecessary

[srislash]

I run the 6.5's on all my batteries. And I never have had an issue even on this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2LykA7azQA

[Mxkid261]

Castle connectors. http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=cas-011-0053-00

[srislash]

Could the connectors be causing the esc heat issues?

OH YEAH, it is a bottleneck. The motor wants the energy and pulls on the ESC for power, ESC cant get it threw the XT so it heats up trying

[RuntheraceAMC]

This is what I use. If I need to run 2p I run a T with two 6.5's into one 8mm.

Like these147515

if you want a set I can send you these, I made a few of them

I would love to grab those off of you. What do I owe you?

[srislash]

I would love to grab those off of you. What do I owe you?

How about $20 shipped, I am off to the PO today so PM me your address

[RuntheraceAMC]

Soooo I just went to run the boat and my motor was making the most God awful sound. Took it to my LHS and was advised that it's probably a loose magnet. I was also advised that repairing these magnets is usually unsuccessful.

So I think I am ordering a new motor. Was thinking of dropping the kv so I can run 8s. My esc is ratites up to 14s. The 1300kv leopard was going to be my pick. High enough kv that 6s should still be fast but low enough to run 8s. Thoughts?

[fweasel]

Thoughts?
Now that the motor is coming out, you can replumb your cooling lines.

[RuntheraceAMC]

Lol. True.

Any thoughts on motor choice?

[NativePaul]

PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation. ESCs switch (modulate) the full battery voltage on and off for various width of pulses extremely fast to simulate a lower voltage, in order to control the speed. It is actually AC, but the switching so fast that it is approximates DC. The standard frequency for the switching is 8mhz, but some motors can still see the fluctuations and are not happy, many ESCs can be programmed to ramp up the speed of the switching to 16mhz or 32mhz for a much smoother approximation of DC in order to keep these motors happy. The FETs that chop up the DC in ESCs have switching losses as well as resistance, and doubling the switching rate doubles the heat generated by those switching losses. If you set your ESCs to higher than 8mhz with most motors you are needlessly generating heat.

[srislash]

And on that note, default on Etti's is 16mhz

[srislash]

Soooo I just went to run the boat and my motor was making the most God awful sound. Took it to my LHS and was advised that it's probably a loose magnet. I was also advised that repairing these magnets is usually unsuccessful.

So I think I am ordering a new motor. Was thinking of dropping the kv so I can run 8s. My esc is ratites up to 14s. The 1300kv leopard was going to be my pick. High enough kv that 6s should still be fast but low enough to run 8s. Thoughts?

Ok let's start simple before throwing money at it, is the flex cable greased?

[RuntheraceAMC]

Always. I ran it out of the hull. It quivers and shakes. Probably only doing a few hundred rpms

[srislash]

So the bad noise is definitely the motor? If so ok, stay off Leopard and go to TP. Far superior.

[RuntheraceAMC]

I don't even know where to start with TP. I was running a 4092 1730k on 6s. Hoping to find a motor that will do 50-55 on 6s and high 60s on 8s

What motor and kv should I look at. Will my 40mm engine mount need replaced?

[srislash]

I am pretty sure physically they are same size. You are in the right ball park KV wise,1300-1400 for your wants.
I just measured one here and have 39.5'ish mm so that is not much difference. You could put a piece of paper around the can where the tail ring hold the motor


BTW stuff is in the mail system

[RuntheraceAMC]

Thanks man. I appreciate it

So which to should I go with? Diameter and length

[srislash]

I would go with the 4260 here: http://www.tppower.com/sort.asp?class_id=4&news=115

Either a 4Y or the 7D. That is on the TP site though not the US one.

[srislash]

Here you go, in stock: http://www.tppowerusa.com/motors/in-stock/tp-4060-1300-kv

[RuntheraceAMC]

I don't understand what I am doing wrong. I thought my 4092 was dead. So I threw my 4074 back in there and went to the lake. 5s for 2:30. Temps were 120. 6s for 2 mins temps were 125 so I propped down from a 648 to a 545 and it did two passes, then the motor made the same shaky rough running sound as it did on the 4092. I tried to limp it in but it died. Smoke all in side. Motor and esc Temps were 190 degrees!!! What the heck just happened. My esc is dead. I'm convinced my 4092 is fine and it was the esc all along. There goes $250. Now what. Drop another $250 when I have no idea what caused the problem. I am at my wits end!

[srislash]

Well I did not see that coming, besides motor what did you change anything?

[RuntheraceAMC]

Nothing. Even proper down. In the past I had even used a Prather 235 and Prather 240 on the 4092

It was like something changed with the esc to cause it to run poorly with the motor and it just burnt up. How do you go from 125 degrees to 190 in two passes

[srislash]

No water flow

Were you able to see any come out the outlets?

[RuntheraceAMC]

I didn't check. But I've never had an issue

[RuntheraceAMC]

The past is the past but now I have no idea what esc to get

[srislash]

DID you have any water within the hull? I really didn't expect you to throw another motor in.

Can you blow thru the cooling lines? This time of year the water can get leaves and such in it, it has happened to me. I lost a Lehner and Swordy that time.

[RuntheraceAMC]

No water in the hull. Didn't blow on the lines

[RuntheraceAMC]

I just tested the 4074 and 4092 with an old 30a esc and a 2 cell and both ran fine. So i definitely blew the esc.

[srislash]

That ESC stuttering is like it got wet the way it went back to normal for a bit but maybe just got hot.

Did you blow other ESC's in this? And how fast would you say it is moving?

[RuntheraceAMC]

I'm not sure I understand your question but yes I blew a raider 150. As far as how fast it goes. 5s 49-54 depending on the prop and 57-63 on 6s.

If you meant how fast did the motor go on that 30a esc I just tested it in my garage on a 2 cell. No stuttering like before

[srislash]

No I was just looking for how the hull is running, wet or anything. You are not far off of where I feel it should be. I would think 70 on 6s.

[srislash]

Well, I guess cleaning things up is first. it'll give you a chance to redo the cooling lines. We will get it sorted out

[RuntheraceAMC]

Length from end of the sponson to bow is 33. Total length 37"

Cog is 10"" from the end of the sponson so it should be running dry.

[RuntheraceAMC]

Well I need to order an esc though. I was thinking just a seaking 180 and run the prop set up more conservative

[srislash]

Are the guys having good results with the new ones? The old ones would have likely been ok but only just ok. How bad is the smell?

[Mxkid261]

Don't get discouraged it's a learning curve building your first boat. We've all had our electronic meltdowns. One thing I noticed is you have a bulge pump in the boat and you put in a water RESISTANT esc, not sure how wet it gets inside the hull but it should be dry or maybe a few drops after a run. In my 32" fightercat I run a tp4060 1720kv with an m445 and it has blown the heat sink clean off a T-180. Motor pulls over 200 amps though, I'm sure the 1300kv pulls less amps but they are still a beast of a motor. Like srilash stated the seaking or turnigy might be "ok" but you may benefit from an eagle tree or some type of data logging to see how many amps your actually pulling. It's a fine line of bringing a boat in and having high temps, or not bringing it back soon enough and having a smoke show :flame42:

[Mxkid261]

Are the guys having good results with the new ones? The old ones would have likely been ok but only just ok. How bad is the smell?

I have had great luck with the new v3 models I have 4 of them. The only issue I've ever had is burning them up from pushing them over their limit lol :roflol:

[srislash]

I have had great luck with the new v3 models I have 4 of them. The only issue I've ever had is burning them up from pushing them over their limit lol :roflol:

It happens

[RuntheraceAMC]

The problem is there are not a lot of better options than the SK180 or raider 150. Fluid warned me about unpredictable results from swordfish esc's and I didn't realize ETTi's were not waterproof as well as just being plain finicky.

So I'm left with this dilemma, do I make another costly mistake and buy another esc for this set up? Or go a different direction?

The goal is reliable speed and I am beginning to believe I can't have both with a single engine. Think about it. If I want to go to 8s I have to buy a HV esc for at least $150 then a new motor for $100 and add some batteries. Or I could buy two raider 150's and another 4074 1800kv to match the one I have and run a couple 442's or 542's and be super conservative but fast on 5 and 6s. And I will have spent the same money but have a twin engine boat and use the same batteries I have now

[srislash]

I see where your at, the boat now basically has to be gutted so why not. Well this proposal is pretty much what I have going on right now but in a Daytona hull. You have that DF which is sooo nice and easy to put twins in. They really have nice access

[RuntheraceAMC]

I just priced out everything I would need to switch this boat to a twin setup and its $420.

Vs another $200 esc to get a 55-60 mph boat or $300 to get a new esc and motor then go by batteries to get me to 8s.

I think i know which way this should go

[Mxkid261]

If you plan on keeping it for awhile might as well just invest the money into it now. A lot of guys are at a dilemma with ESC's. The sf's look to be garbage IMO and terrible customer service.

[RuntheraceAMC]

Ok but what no one can seem to offer is a recommendation on a reliable esc for the motors I am using. Maybe no such thing exists.

[Mxkid261]

Just run two T-180's that's about your most practical option. Unless you want to gamble on a swordfish. If you want to spend big bucks go on the MGM website.

[srislash]

I had recommended the Etti's but if the cooling isn't reworked you will blow another. If going 7s or under their 150 is tuff.
BTW they are epoxy coated so water resistant not waterproof

There is Flier, lots of options there. Totally not waterproof though.

[rad35]

I just replaced the esc in my spartan with a sf 220 pro + running a cc1515 2200kv motor 6's 47mm/3 blade prop data logging showed 58 amp max good speed and ran cool. After reading this hope i don't have esc issues butt data logging can really help. Esc temps were 72 after a 3 min run but my water temp is low 50's right now.