Darin's RECOIL 26 "N2-Offshore" Modiciations

[Darin Jordan]

Well, in traditional form, I can't leave well enough alone!

Received my Recoil 26, took it out of the box, and started the modifications.

The Plan: Setup the Recoil 26 to be a legal NAMBA N2-Offshore Racer.

NOTE: "Self-Righting" hulls are legal in NAMBA, but using the Self-Righting feature during a race isn't. HOWEVER, As I'm finding out about some hulls, like this one... Often, Self-Righting hulls have another feature: They don't tend to go UPSIDE DOWN in the first place! So, on we go with the transformation! ;)

142079

First Order of Business, Add some control surfaces to stabilize the hull at speed. I added a second set of Trim-Tabs by taking another stock set and removing the turn-fins from them. Pretty basic.
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[Brushless55]

That should be a fun little bugger !

[Darin Jordan]

Knowing the NAMBA rules as I do, I recognized that the strakes were not technically legal. They were quite concave, and there are limits to how much concavity they can have. Plus, in my experience, concave strakes make for "silly" handling at speeds. So, I filled them in using some lightweight, water-resistant Featherfill, carefully applied with a flat blade to get them leveled out. Took about 20-minutes to apply and another 30-minutes or so of careful block-sanding once set, and they were pretty much ready to go.

142085

Another thing I've learned about Monos is that running the strakes all the way to the back, on a smaller boat that is likely way over-powered, tends to lead to a boat that is way too light on the water. Ray Fuller used to say, when referring to the handling of a Mono, that "part of the hull MUST stay in contact with the water". In order to keep the last couple of inches of the keel in touch with the surface, I removed the lower strakes approximately 4" forward. This is as far forward as I could without having to redo too much on the interior.

BEFORE removing the strakes, I filled in the recesses on the INSIDE of the hull with Epoxy and Milled Fiber, then laminated some light glass over the top of that to hold it in place. You WILL break through the hull when removing these strakes, and this prevents a hole.

142086

Once that was set, some simply sanding in my disk and belt sander, followed by some finish-up hand sanding, and they were removed.

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[Darin Jordan]

With the hull ready, I decided I wanted more turn-fin, so I took a set of IM31 turn fins and some L brackets I had from another project, and simply bolted them on. Removed the original fins, of course.

142090

You'll note that I replaced the rudder as well. This was NOT necessary, but I screwed up the stock one trying to modify it to get a better pin-fit. Ended up putting an assembly together from spare parts I had laying around from other development projects, etc. Still has slop, and has WAY too much Wedge angle, but for now this will work.

142091

[Darin Jordan]

That pretty much takes care of the hull. I'm going to just run the stock strut and bracket. I did replace the flex cable with one I made. It's a .150" cable, but the propshaft length doesn't allow for the range of props I wanted to try, so I built my own. Again, not necessary, but I'm looking ahead.

Now, onto the power system.

First, I replaced the Radio System with, what else, Spektrum. Put in an MR200 and am using my DX4R-Pro. Boom. Done.

Also, replaced the steering servo with a stock servo out of my Zelos 36. The Zelos Servo is 148 oz-in and is digital, and is also a bit faster. A little bigger too. Can't have too much servo, in my opinion.

All just drop into the stock locations.

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[Darin Jordan]

For power, I pulled out the stock outrunner, which really helps the self-righting feature work, as well as the stock ESC. Might find their way into another project at some point.

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I replaced the ESC with a stock Dynamite/Pro Boat 120A unit out of the IM31. To fit this, note that I had to remove the lip at the front of the stock ESC Tray. Just broke off the edges using some pliers.

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[Darin Jordan]

For motors, I selected the TP 3630 in an appropriate KV for N2-Offshore (2S, up to 10,000mAh). I'm retaining the stock weighted coupler, as it'll help the self-righting feature continue to work, hopefully, with the in-runner motor and an appropriately sized set of batteries (the weight on the left side is what helps in this regard.)

Simply bolted the motor to the stock motor mount, attached the flywheel, and reinstalled.

142101


That's about it. Bolted everything in place, installed a 2S1P 6600mAh pack, and she's ready to test.

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[Darin Jordan]

First test was successful. Took the boat, as pictured above, to work yesterday and gave it a shakedown. I wasn't able to video it actually running, as I was alone, but I did capture the self-righting tests. It's not quite a slick as the original setup, but it does flip over:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZRmAqffuCw

[Darin Jordan]

Another try:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjykqxc9yCs

[Darin Jordan]

That's it for the moment. I'll try to get some video of the boat running.

I'm happy to report that it does run VERY well. With the smallish X537/3 on there, it was hitting a legit 40mph or so and was rock stable. Turns VERY well to the left. To the right, if you turned too hard, it would pop the prop out of the water and hook a bit. We'll work on tuning that out.

[arrover]

Cool project!!!

[T.S.Davis]

Good stuff Darin.

What did you decide to try for KV on the TP motor? I have a couple options I've been tossing around but nothing that I think is great. Mostly too hot. haha I can't run my 1515/.5y in offshore. A tic much.

[Darin Jordan]

Good stuff Darin.

What did you decide to try for KV on the TP motor? I have a couple options I've been tossing around but nothing that I think is great. Mostly too hot. haha I can't run my 1515/.5y in offshore. A tic much.

David Newland formula for Offshore... ~3600KV-ish... Mine is a TP 3630-3Y, which is 3480KV. There is a little bit hotter one, the TP 3630-5D, which is 3861KV, but I wanted to keep it a bit mild, not knowing exactly how the hull would react to 2S2P 10,000mAh. Also like the way the power systems react on Y-Winds vs. D-Winds.

I'm hoping to get buy with a little less battery. Also, I'm hoping that the hull itself will just run and run, and could make up for lack of shear speed with handling and staying upright in questionable water.

I'd rather be able to PEG the throttle and just steer the boat at a reasonable speed, than overpower and have to manage both a throttle AND navigation at the same time. Lap times improve when you can do that. There IS the concept of having TOO much power and TOO fast of a setup. ;)

[T.S.Davis]

With the lower KV you'll be able to put more blade in the water too. With all the turns in offshore getting out of them matters.

[Darin Jordan]

Finally got some real testing on my modified Pro Boat Recoil 26. This is a TP3630 motor on a 2S 5000 mAh Thunder Power 65C pack. Pack is old and was pulling down in Voltage pretty bad, so speeds aren't where the will be with better cells.

Still, the boat rips and is seriously difficult to get to go upside down.

Need to give it another go with better cells. There is another 1,100 RPM or so I'm missing with these old batteries. New ones should liven it right up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoluD_YbDXk

[vincea]

Complete parts list please

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[stony30]

Yes could you please list all the parts you used?? Thanks

[Darin Jordan]

Well... the N2-Offshore motor just sold. Never ended up racing it do to just too many classes to run at the Nats.

Maybe P-LTD Offshore?? :spy:

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[TheShaughnessy]

it would be fast that's for sure, might be a challenge to keep it keel side down in a 4 min offshore heat with bigger boats though.

[Darin Jordan]

it would be fast that's for sure, might be a challenge to keep it keel side down in a 4 min offshore heat with bigger boats though.

Mike, having run this... there is another benefit to the hull design lending itself to be "self-righting"... It tends to NOT go upside down in the first place!

Now, per the rules, you can't USE the self-righting feature (boat flips... sits there... you blip the throttle a few times and it eventually rights...)... HOWEVER... If you NEVER stop... If you are at full-speed, like you usually are when the boat flips, and it flips over and you just power through and get it back upright WITHOUT it ever losing speed or position or lane, etc... well.

Basically what I'm saying is that this hull seems to like to stay upright, and if you does flip over, if you are at speed, it tends to just flip right back upright and you keep going. :)

[Rafael_Lopez]

Darin, whats the blue around the end bell and the motor mount?

Also, the boat will only self right with an outrunner. I could never get it to self right otherwise, which is why we engineered the weighted flywheel. If you flip it, you'll be dean on the water for sure, but like you mentioned, flipping it is nearly impossible.

Really fun boat at the beach. It jumps really well off the waves.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, whats the blue around the end bell and the motor mount?

Also, the boat will only self right with an outrunner. I could never get it to self right otherwise, which is why we engineered the weighted flywheel. If you flip it, you'll be dean on the water for sure, but like you mentioned, flipping it is nearly impossible.

Really fun boat at the beach. It jumps really well off the waves.

That's high-temp tape holding on the temp probe for the Spektrum Telemetry on the SR4000T RX.

Mine self-rights, or at least it did with the TP motor in it on 2S2P (10,000mAh total). I haven't tried it with this PB setup. Takes a couple of blips, but honestly, I'm not setting it up worrying about self-righting. My experience has been that, at speed, it doesn't tend to stay UPSIDE DOWN if it does flip.

[TheShaughnessy]

so basically it's like legal cheating due to verbiage which makes it not cheating ha ha. :just-kidding::thumbup: also how can you race a plastic hull? Abs means absolutely no racing:sarcasm1:
still waiting for the video with the PB set up.

I get what you are saying but I think you might have some grumpy people if they see your boat doing barrel rolls and keep going despite not being dead for 5 seconds or actually "using " the self righting feature.

[Darin Jordan]

I get what you are saying but I think you might have some grumpy people if they see your boat doing barrel rolls and keep going despite not being dead for 5 seconds or actually "using " the self righting feature.

The rules are very specific, and this boat doesn't actually have any "self righting feature"... it just happens to be ABLE to self right. It's all internal, using a flywheel and battery placement.

I write rules... BRING IT! :)

[Darin Jordan]

Video posted from above... Hard to keep it upside down...



https://youtu.be/QoluD_YbDXk

[TheShaughnessy]

ok self righting ability. I break rules... what :rules:? No doubt it's legal, but there will still be racers who get but hurt.

do you think it'd be much faster on 4s and a limited motor vs the set up in the video?

[Darin Jordan]

ok self righting ability. I break rules... what :rules:? No doubt it's legal, but there will still be racers who get but hurt.

Well, it's an RTR Hull... Everyone has the equal ability to buy, build, and race all this publicly available race equipment. It's not my job, or desire, to tender to my competitions "feelings"... There is nothing illegal, in any way, about this hull, or this setup.


do you think it'd be much faster on 4s and a limited motor vs the set up in the video?

Yes... Will be able to run a much more appropriately sized prop, which, as it turns out, will help keep the boat upright even better. :popcorn2:

[Darin Jordan]

There is nothing illegal, in any way, about this hull, or this setup.

What WOULD be illegal is if I stopped the boat for any length of time to self-right it. THAT is what the rules prevent.

But, just driving it for 4-Min, and it doesn't go upside down... that's just clean racing, just like any other boat that is on the course. The fact that this boat isn't a prone to go upside down is just a benefit of the design and balance of the package. And boats flip and land upright and keep going ALL THE TIME during these races, without penalty, so nothing new there either...

[TheShaughnessy]

Another try:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjykqxc9yCs

5. With the exception of boats run in the ECO Specialty Class, boats that are capable of
self-righting are not eligible for competition. If the boats self-righting design can be
disabled or otherwise rendered useless, then the Contest Director may allow it to.

So I started digging, unless I'm not understanding this correctly it actually is an illegal boat. If you removed the flywheel and turned the boat upside down and you were unable to make it self right then design would be disabled and it could be allowed.
compete.

[Darin Jordan]

5. With the exception of boats run in the ECO Specialty Class, boats that are capable of
self-righting are not eligible for competition. If the boats self-righting design can be
disabled or otherwise rendered useless, then the Contest Director may allow it to.

So I started digging, unless I'm not understanding this correctly it actually is an illegal boat. If you removed the flywheel and turned the boat upside down and you were unable to make it self right then design would be disabled and it could be allowed.
compete.

You might be right... but it's not a flywheel, it's a coupler (all one piece), and there isn't anything about the hulls features that make it roll back over, other than the battery placement, so I still see a LOT of gray there.

[Darin Jordan]

By the way, Michael, I don't plan on actually racing this anyhow, so all this is mute. Set it up this was more as a test rig to use when Spektrum asks me to field test something (telemetry, RXs, Range tests, etc.)...

I just got all wound up over the Streep speech last night, so I'm in a bit of a defiant, argumentative mood today. :frusty:

[TheShaughnessy]

all in fun, Its raining in CA and i'm adjusting. I thought I remembered a discussion where we were going to allow self righters so long as they didn't self right during the race. I decided to actually read the rule book to see what was there and that's what I found. The more we talk about it the grayer it seems to become.

[Rafael_Lopez]

Darin, I missed the part where you still have the weighted flywheel. Weighted flywheel + high RPM = Self right effect. Runnin a regular coupler will also help with the boat being a bit erratic and make the steering more precise.

[SlickZERO]

I realize this is really old. I have many race boats but bought a SonicWake and am hooked on the self righting for playing around and with the grand kids. I picked up a Rocket 26, Valvryn 26, and a Recoil 26.
They all could stand a boost in performance and precision. I replace the servos and linkage for 0 slop.
I was thinking of replacing the speed control and running 4 cell? How critical is the weight of the esc and battery?
Thanks, Bret

[emspjay]

I realize this is really old. I have many race boats but bought a SonicWake and am hooked on the self righting for playing around and with the grand kids. I picked up a Rocket 26, Valvryn 26, and a Recoil 26.
They all could stand a boost in performance and precision. I replace the servos and linkage for 0 slop.
I was thinking of replacing the speed control and running 4 cell? How critical is the weight of the esc and battery?
Thanks, Bret

I was thinking the same thing! I purchased my Recoil a few months before the Sonicwake was released. I just put a OSE Raider ESC in mine and going to try it on 4s in the spring, hopefully I don't burn up the original motor. If the motor does not burn up on 4s I will start playing with props also. I just lightly run mine for run but would like it to be a little faster.

[Idaho LK]

[QUOTE=Darin Jordan;659602]For motors, I selected the TP 3630 in an appropriate KV for N2-Offshore (2S, up to 10,000mAh). I'm retaining the stock weighted coupler, as it'll help the self-righting feature continue to work, hopefully, with the in-runner motor and an appropriately sized set of batteries (the weight on the left side is what helps in this regard.)

Simply bolted the motor to the stock motor mount, attached the flywheel, and reinstalled.

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That's about it. Bolted everything in place, installed a 2S1P 6600mAh pack, and she's ready to test.

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Looks like a grease/water seal over the end of the flex shaft and tube just before the motor collet. Is that something you fabricated or did you purchase somewhere? My Recoil 26 did not come with anything here and I get some water coming into the boat.
Larry

[mushroom 19.9]

Hello all! I'm new to the forum.
I had a new all stock Recoil 26 that ran 28 MPH consistently on 3s/50c/4000mah.
I have just upgraded the ESC, motor and prop.
I am now running 4s/50c/2200/3200 batteries with..,
Turnigy 120A marine esc
Dynamite 2300kv outrunner (from ProBoat Riverjet 23)
OSE cnc 40mm 3 blade

The boat is now running 44 mph consistently on smooth water... but running hot (to the touch) on the motor, esc is fine.
Do I need a different/better motor? any recommendations.

[Fluid]

It’s difficult to tell from your description. Outrunners often run hotter than inrunners, there is limited cooling (usually not water-cooled on the motor). But, outrunners usually can tolerate higher temps without damage - we need an actual temperature to see if there is a problem. If the ESC is not hot then your packs are probably okay, but what is a 2200/3200 battery?



.

[Bp9145]

f I'm understanding it correctly, I think mushroom is using two different 4S batteries, one is 2200mah and the other is a 3200mah, both with 50C rating. As fluid mentioned outrunners will run hot and the only water cooling you can provide for outrunners is on the motor mounts. My outrunners after a run is anywhere around 140?F and up. .definitely hot to the touch. Also, that's after getting it out of the water, getting it to your boat stand or station, then taking off the hatch tape before I remove the hatch, surely an easy 5 minutes or so and with me it's much longer as I have a bad back and I'm surely in no hurry to get it on the stand. So there's definitely some time that motor have cooled down. So I can imagine it's much higher than 140?F after a run and yet, I haven't had any problems with my outrunners to this date. I suppose the only way to really get a proper temp on the motor is using a data logger which I never did, even though I have a data logger or on some of the esc itself that I have. It will tell you how hot the motor got. But, if you're esc and batteries aren't hot to the touch, then most likely you're fine. But, it's probably best to get a temp gun to at least get some idea what the temps are on your outrunner motor just to be sure you're on the safe side.. .don't be like me. lol
.[/QUOTE]

[mushroom 19.9]

I have some updates and clarifications

The 2200/3200 battery reference was just to point out that the physical size difference had no effect on top speed.

I got my hands on a digital temp gun and found the following:

motor hit over 170F and battery hit 165F with 4s 3200mah, Turnigy 120A esc, 2300kv outrunner, CNC 40mm 3blade --- 44mph

motor hit 150F and battery hit 140F with 3s 3200mah, 3 blade prop--34 mph

motor hit 150F and battery hit 150F with 4s and 40mm 2 blade prop---39mph

Lastly and oddly, motor hit 160F and battery hit 165F on 3s and 2 blade prop?? 34Mph

Looking to bring down the battery heat, do i need a higher kv motor? maybe an in runner??

[NativePaul]

Use a smaller prop or lower Kv to reduce the load, and/or reduce your runtime. LiPos heat up way more at the end of their discharge, even if your load is OK for the first part of the run it can heat up dangerously if you run it down too low. Check your resting cell voltages after a run they should be over 3.7V/cell.

165f is way too hot, they will take permanent damage over 140f. There is a feedback loop created where overheating it once reduces the capacity and increases the IR, which makes it heat up even more on the next outing causing even more damage, which makes things worse and worse every run until there is a catastrophic failure.

[targetingxmod]

Well...like so much this boat and this thread that it should have a video of mine... after some mods! :P


https://youtu.be/AV-qoq1ohtQ

[mushroom 19.9]

so what mods have you done specifically? have you checked temps on your battery?

[targetingxmod]

I have no temperatures issues even with a Prather 230s prop! But it ain't stock, just the hull...not even the canopy! Well still stock shaft! :P

https://i.imgur.com/IlZzCrU.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/NaEuuQd.jpg?1
-Take a peak under the hood...

[targetingxmod]

https://youtu.be/qphfNB09xxo

All show, all go... :flashfire:

[targetingxmod]

Made some fpv style videos with my Recoil 26"

https://youtu.be/vojTxcbyS3U

[NativePaul]

Wow, awesome image stabilisation on that camera you are using! What is it? I assume from the watermark that it is a gopro of some description.

What hardware and software are you using to overlay the compass, G meter, and speed graphics? What further purchases are needed to remove the gopro watermark?

[targetingxmod]

Wow, awesome image stabilisation on that camera you are using! What is it? I assume from the watermark that it is a gopro of some description.

What hardware and software are you using to overlay the compass, G meter, and speed graphics? What further purchases are needed to remove the gopro watermark?

It's just simply a GOPRO, but it's the 7 Black. Since the (1,2,3,4,5,6) Gopro come out they all needed external gimball to smooth like that or just close! :)
BUT since the 7Black come out with the "Hypersmooth" feature it's all done when recording via software when making the files...that's why they have that power processor they got! Once Hypersmooth is enabled forget about gimball...no need. THAT's an action CAM! There are only 2 more like this till today... the 8 BLACK from Gopro and the DJI OSMO Action...anything else does not have this stabilization... i had SJCAM's and FIREFLY's and had to use a 3 axis gimbal everytime...

The GoPro clip is screwed into canopy...it can't be glued by 3M or (RAMBO) tape only...it will fall someday/somehow. SCREWS! :)

As for the GPS... it also need's to be enabled on the GOPRO...and then on the computer with the GoPro software program...and you can remove or put even more gauges... they are about 6 or 8...the "logo" is removable also!

As for the Recoil i wanna do a 6s pass with camera on top...but my heart can't take it! lol

Here is another video of mine "outside" :P

https://youtu.be/tS69Sy6o_fQ

[Froggy]

What battery brand and size did you end up with, I built one of these for my grandson with Leopard 3074 1900KV 120 Spekttum ESC after playing with it and dialing it in I didn?t want to give it to him, it?s a really fun boat.