Mah resitrictions

[T.S.Davis]

Okay, this will be fun. Brian's first "what fer?"

I know why we included MAH restrictions back when the Lipo cells were proposed. That limit was included to appease the doom and gloom "we're all gonna die" gang. Some also thought that all classes would be dominated by massive mah. IMPBA went with max charged voltage but no mah limits. So if you had a pair 5200's for a class you were still fine but if you race NAMBA.....hosed. Best I can tell, it hasn't made a lick of difference to IMPBA. I asked and I've raced both organizations.

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?53696-Mah

See....I did ask. :tt2:

My opinion has changed over time. I was the anti-big mah camp. All I could see was the cost of 2P and a speedo that could turn a million amps. Tech has evolved and become much more accessible. I think now that with the length restrictions you can only carry so much weight before you've built a submarine instead of a boat.

So does anyone have a legitimate reason to limit NAMBA class mah? Has anyone ever checked it at a race? What a pain in the a$$ if we did.

Is it time to move on from mah limits in NAMBA? Opinions welcomed.

[JimClark]

if you could use 10000 mah you could get 2 heats on one pack therefore cutting down your charging and number of batteries .hough the first run would probably be better than the second run.

[RayR]

Terry,

i have recently been thinking about the same thing. Many batteries now at 5200 and greater. 2p puts us over the 10k limit.

[Doby]

Ditch the limit....theres no way anyone would use 10000mah in a six lap heat...if people want to carry more (and more potential weight) , who cares...if anything it will just keep batteries happier.

[Doug Smock]

So does anyone have a legitimate reason to limit NAMBA class mah? Has anyone ever checked it at a race?

Is it time to move on from mah limits in NAMBA? Opinions welcomed.

No, no, yes.
I'm glad you brought this up Terry. As you know Don and I had to re tool to race the Michigan Cup last year.

You're right about racing in the IMPBA, capacity hasn't been an issue in any way shape form or fashion.

I'd love to see it go away before the Michigan Cup. I really hated putting Zippy labels on my Hyperion batteries last year.:laugh:

[T.S.Davis]

I used to get it but not so much anymore. It's just something else to think about when choosing batteries too. I like to pick cells I can use for a bunch of classes. 5600mah packs would be really versatile.

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, I'll give you a call on my way home.

[JimClark]

I looked at 10000 mah 4s and 5000 mah 4s the 10K are about 8 ounces heavier

[Brushless55]

Terry,

i have recently been thinking about the same thing. Many batteries now at 5200 and greater. 2p puts us over the 10k limit.


Agreed..
makes the 10k limit hard to do with the new labels we see on our packs ... some not all

[Greg Schweers]

When NAMBA switched from 4.20 to 4.23. A 5000 pack is basically a 5100 to 5200 mAH. If you put 2 5000 packs in parallel, you're basically running 10200 mAH. So you might as well just throw out the milliamp rule.

[photohoward1]

IMPBA does have a weight limit though. 24#. You quickly come up against it in an open 10s boat. So for the larger boats there is a Sudo limit. Terry while your at it what about the new HV batteries? How are clubs handling that issue? I have club guys buying them and then I explain if they travel they can't use them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TRUCKPULL]

Terry

What about Offshore classes.

We will end up with Full "P" & "Q" ETC boats with larger capacity batteries to get 4 1/2 Min..

Or a 36" cat with twins and 10,000 per motor???????

I have been fighting for almost a year to make my twin "P" Cat run on 10,000 max for Offshore - 4 1/2 Min.
I finally got it running at about 55 to 58 for 4 1/2 min. using about 90% of 10,000.

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, what does IMPBA do with twins? That's the only hang up I can think of. A 39" cat with twin 1527/1y and 10k per side would be madness.

[T.S.Davis]

For that matter, how about a twin Ricco Superboat? Might be tough to get under the weight limit though.

[TRUCKPULL]

Terry

In IMPBA any number of motors are allowed in "Q" and above.

Also in IMPBA they do not run Offshore the same way as we do in NAMBA

At all of the races that I have attended in IMPBA, they set an Offshore coarse up and run like 8 laps,
So it is not the same as trying to run 4 1/2min. on 10,000mAmp's in NAMBA

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

Gotcha. So Mah aren't really an issue. I don't want to see any classes become "must run twins" to win. Have to think on that.

Offshore in Atlanta runs well over 4 minutes because the course is ginormous. 6 laps and a mill takes over 4 minutes. Closer to mid 5 minutes. Forget about what ever offshore setup you've devised for NAMBA. It wont work on the Atlanta course.

[Doug Smock]

Doug, what does IMPBA do with twins? That's the only hang up I can think of. A 39" cat with twin 1527/1y and 10k per side would be madness.

1. A ‘pack’ is defined as the cell(s) wired in series or parallel or any wiring combination that is used
to provide electrical power to the speed control for the purpose of driving the electrical motor(s).
a. Only one pack maybe used even if multiple speed controls are used.
b. The pack must be made up of only one type of cell chemistry.
c. In multiple speed control/motor installations the total pack voltage must be used as the
supply input to each speed control.

This is another area where the two orgs differ.

Your Q Cat with 6s per side is considered a 12s setup and is illegal in the IMPBA.
Wire 6s2p to both controls and your good to go. If you can squeeze 20k in there go for it.

[Doug Smock]

Gotcha. So Mah aren't really an issue. I don't want to see any classes become "must run twins" to win. Have to think on that.

Offshore in Atlanta runs well over 4 minutes because the course is ginormous. 6 laps and a mill takes over 4 minutes. Closer to mid 5 minutes. Forget about what ever offshore setup you've devised for NAMBA. It wont work on the Atlanta course.

Just because you mentioned it.
141622

Mill and six.

[Doby]

Thats not an offshore course...its a frigg'in global excursion:w00t:

Southerners:olleyes:

[Doby]

I suspect at some NAMBA events there might have been some inadvertent "illegal" capacities being used.

Can the CD make an exemption for this on race days? Can clubs make the exemption on the race flyers?

[Doug Smock]

Thats not an offshore course...its a frigg'in global excursion:w00t:

Southerners:olleyes:
Now you know why we needed your buds to flush their toilets during the drought. LOL

I can see why a short sighted Kanadian would have trouble with it. :hug1:

[T.S.Davis]

That's goofy too. Two separate supplies of 6s10k to two separate speedo is the same as a single supply of 6s20k to two speedo. You just build a bus bar. There is no difference. Accept that you have extra resistance in the bus bar. Silly. Someone didn't think that one through either. I understand the intent but the end result is just more junk in the trunk. Pachmeyer did this back 2007 I think for a CAFE race. First real lipo race I can remember. I think his bus was solid gold at the time.

[T.S.Davis]

Thats not an offshore course...its a frigg'in global excursion

It's nutty John. That back pin is sooooooo far out that you're not sure if your going to clear it, hit it, or make land fall. Maybe nutty isn't fair. How about "challenging"?

[Doby]

I remember in London we had that issue as well, the offshore marker disappeared in the early morning sun...all came down to whose spotter had a better relationship with the "Force"

[Doby]

....so, back to my question about the CD........

[Doby]

Now you know why we needed your buds to flush their toilets during the drought. LOL

I can see why a short sighted Kanadian would have trouble with it. :hug1:

How do you southerners do it...drive by Brail???...Clunk..Thud...whoops, to close!

[Doby]

....so, back to my question about the CD........

....

[TRUCKPULL]

c. In multiple speed control/motor installations the total pack voltage must be used as the
supply input to each speed control.

This is another area where the two orgs differ.

Your Q Cat with 6s per side is considered a 12s setup and is illegal in the IMPBA.
Wire 6s2p to both controls and your good to go. If you can squeeze 20k in there go for it.

The wiring is no problem, My "P" Cat is wired so that each ESC sees 4S2P 10,000 mAmps total
To be able to run 4 1/2 min, My average AMP draw can not be more then 65 Amps per motor.

A big "Q" twin - 6S3P - 6,600mAmp packs = Oval racing at 80MPH

Larry

[TRUCKPULL]

Can the CD make an exemption for this on race days? Can clubs make the exemption on the race flyers?

John

I think the problem would be the INSURANCE
We are only covered when we stick to the rules.

Larry

[Doby]

John

I think the problem would be the INSURANCE
We are only covered when we stick to the rules.

Larry

Well that just opens a whole new can of worms....

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah that's interesting Larry. I've been told this for years but it's not really true. You have to stick to the safety rules. The book says that failure to comply with the safety rules may result in a loss of coverage. Paraphrasing. No where does the book say "You must comply with every letter of this document or you will not be insured". I've been told repeatedly "Well, they expect us to follow our own rules". Expect? Good luck with that in court. If it's not on paper it didn't happen. Ever see cats and monos sprint together? Guess were uninsured at that point. Nonsense.

Cell counts and battery specs aren't in the safety rules. If the insurance company wanted to jam that "you weren't following the rules" thing down our throats then no event that I'm aware of since lipo was introduced would have been covered because no event that I'm aware of has ever truly tech'd the mah's. You could read the label but who knows what's under the label if you don't do a full discharge and then a subsequent recharge. Then do you discharge down to 0% before a refill to absolutely sure? If we were getting all lawyer'y, "Where's the documentation proving that you checked it?"

Checking them with absolute certainty should only take an entire day for tech for each day of racing. The only thing I check is voltage. I don't think anyone escaped scrutiny at the Cup last summer. If I missed someone I apologize. I'll be sure to check all of your crap this year. We've relied entirely on good faith since introduction of Lipo.

The whole restriction thing was an attempt to appease those that were convinced Lipo would spell the end of racing. Same response that brushless motors received. "RACING IS RUINED! WE'RE JUST RACING WALLETS NOW! THAT'S IT! I'M OUT!"

Still not sure how to address the twins thing. Larry's 6s3p twin Q cat scenario is pretty realistic and would likely come in under weight. Not sure it would be drive able but it is possible. We're planning to test a 20k single Q cat for Atlanta. See if that works. Weight is under easy.

John, I'm not sure it matters what the CD states on the flier. If a guy shows up with cells that don't have labels at all........ how does the CD know anything more than the voltage? Hmmmmm, those look like 5600 2p to me. The sketchy part would be the legitimacy of the results. For instance, one could argue that a national championship awarded to a racer whose cells were not dumped and recharged to verify compliance with the MAH restrictions is not legit. Ridiculous but you could make the argument.

Every record run is tech'd for compliance with the rules.......accept the mah restrictions because to do so is a nightmare. I've signed some record applications. I've not checked the mah. Only voltage. I doubt that the SAW guys are doing a complete discharge and recharge.

[Doby]

The only reason I brought up the CD/Flyer thing was if someone who had some 6000 packs and they wanted to run in 2P
they could (like P-Mono/Cat) without having to buy new packs....

[Doby]

I think I'm going to re-label all my packs as 4S Flux Capacitors.

[jaike5]

Didn't the mah limit restrict the size of prop you could spin in off shore and the roundy round? now more mah means bigger wheel, go faster and so on. next will it be length and weigh restrictions changed to hold more batteries . now safety really becomes an issue. instead of an 18lb T- boat doing 65mph in the roundy round, now you may have 30lb boat doing 75plus mph....:doh: and the wakes would be massive with 4-6 T-boats, yikes !! just my .02, race on :rockon2:

Cheers, Jay.

[Brushless55]

Every record run is tech'd for compliance with the rules.......accept the mah restrictions because to do so is a nightmare. I've signed some record applications. I've not checked the mah. Only voltage. I doubt that the SAW guys are doing a complete discharge and recharge.

are the 2 lap and SAW runs held to the 10,000mah limit in P and Q classes ?
or are they allowed to run more ?
thanks

[T.S.Davis]

Supposed to be. I don't think the SAW guys typically carry the max.

[TRUCKPULL]

The only reason I brought up the CD/Flyer thing was if someone who had some 6000 packs and they wanted to run in 2P
they could (like P-Mono/Cat) without having to buy new packs....

John
If they had two 2S - 6,000mAmp packs, there is NO problem running them in series, you end up with a 4S1P - 6,000mAmp pack.
This is still under the MAX limit of 10,000mAmp's on board.

If you had two 4S- 6,000mAmp packs, and connect them parallel, you end up with a 4S2P - 12,000mAmp pack - NO -over the MAX -10,000mAMP on board.

If you want to go this way- I could sell a my Offshore Motors, and 5,000mAmp batteries and buy all 6,600mAmp packs, then I could just run my oval setups in Offshore.
This way also my oval setups will run faster seeing that the output voltage under load would be higher with the higher capacity packs.

Larry

[Doug Smock]

"I don't think anyone escaped scrutiny at the Cup last summer".

I know Don and I were checked frequently. We were starting to get a complex. lol I think the T mono was checked before every heat.

Edit: It was as it should be, I'm not complaining!:wink:

[T.S.Davis]

I know Doug. I knew what you were running. I didn't want to hear any BS later about Smock this or Smock that. I'm sure you already know this but I wasn't trying to catch a single person cheating. I was preventing others from making accusations later. It wouldn't have come from anyone at our race. It would have come from people NOT at our race. The usual sources.

I checked Einstein and PAGS about 86 times. Fireball got a bunch of visits too. I tried to accost everyone at some point. Probably skipped the kids boats.

[Doug Smock]

Oh yeah I "get it" Terry. Not to catch someone cheating, it's to prove they're not. I appreciate you being on the front end of it!

[TRUCKPULL]

Doug

Terry, Fred & the MI gang run one of, if not the best and fairest races in North America.

Larry

[Doby]

John
If they had two 2S - 6,000mAmp packs, there is NO problem running them in series, you end up with a 4S1P - 6,000mAmp pack.
This is still under the MAX limit of 10,000mAmp's on board.

If you had two 4S- 6,000mAmp packs, and connect them parallel, you end up with a 4S2P - 12,000mAmp pack - NO -over the MAX -10,000mAMP on board.


Larry

Thanks Larry, but I've been doing math for a few years now and already had that figured out...:blink::laugh:

I'm just saying that if some newby, like a Smock or Don H are entering their first race with their P Mono and want to join in on the craziness with their 2, 4S 6000mah packs to run in parallel, could they still be allowed to run if the race waiver allows a bit extra capacity? I'd hate to think some folks would be turned away for a few extra mah. Unless of course its for a formal record of some sort.

[Doby]

Doug

Terry, Fred & the MI gang run one of, if not the best and fairest races in North America.

Larry

The're a bunch of bums...Terry needs a calculator to figure out a 4s packs voltage.

[Doby]

I know Doug. I knew what you were running. I didn't want to hear any BS later about Smock this or Smock that. I'm sure you already know this but I wasn't trying to catch a single person cheating. I was preventing others from making accusations later. It wouldn't have come from anyone at our race. It would have come from people NOT at our race. The usual sources.

I checked Einstein and PAGS about 86 times. Fireball got a bunch of visits too. I tried to accost everyone at some point. Probably skipped the kids boats.

Checking Kanadians packs voltages is a waste of time, we're the most honest people on the planet. Southerners though...well that's a whole different ball game....they've always got a extra cell up their sleeves.

[TRUCKPULL]

I'm just saying that if some newby, like a Smock or Don H are entering their first race with their P Mono and want to join in on the craziness with their 2, 4S 6000mah packs to run in parallel, could they still be allowed to run if the race waiver allows a bit extra capacity? I'd hate to think some folks would be turned away for a few extra mah. Unless of course its for a formal record of some sort.

John

If it is club race - No Problem

If it is a NAT's or MI Cup size race - NO WAY

To allow one person the extra capacity is a big advantage to that person.
Higher capacity cells give higher voltage under load.

To put it in the race flier, means that everyone else has to buy new packs to compete.
It is easer for that one person to borrow or buy legal packs for the race.

Larry

[Doug Smock]

I'd hate to think some folks would be turned away for a few extra mah.

That may happen this year. My old 5000s are letting go and are being replaced with 5200s.

Out of curiosity, what's the procedure for batteries that have had the original labels / heat shrink removed?

[Doby]

Out of curiosity, what's the procedure for batteries that have had the original labels / heat shrink removed?

Personal integrity.

Of course anyone who thinks a couple of hundred extra Mah capacity is going to win them a race is delusional.:blink::blink:

Perhaps the rules need to updated to state that only factory labeled packs can be used.:olleyes:

I have both 5800Mah , 4200Mah and 5000Mah packs that could be used on 2P setups...oh the horror...there's a possibility of over 10000mah capacity. I also have some HV packs (but no HV chargers) EEEKKKKK!!!!!!!!. Guess Terry's going to be busier than a one armed wall-paper hanger at Michigan this year....checking voltages, capacities, labels, underwear color, etc.....

Just another reason NAMBA and IMPBA needs to have a group hug and get their collective *!***!***!***!**z together on a standard set of rules for FE.

[photohoward1]

Checking Kanadians packs voltages is a waste of time, we're the most honest people on the planet. Southerners though...well that's a whole different ball game....they've always got a extra cell up their sleeves.

How is Canadian voltage checked? Is that USA Voltage or Canadian Voltage? I get so confused with the metric system. :sarcasm1:

[Doug Smock]

lol Howard.
Doby, my Kanadian friend. I understand integrity.
But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm?:olleyes: Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.

[Brushless55]

lol Howard.
Doby, my Kanadian friend. I understand integrity.
But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm?:olleyes: Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.

I agree, this is a good question ....

[TRUCKPULL]

But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm?:olleyes: Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.

Doug

If you have to re-shrink your packs-- Use clear shrink
Even the packs from China have electro printing on every individual cell, stating the capacity.
This now can be read through the clear shrink.

Larry

[Doby]

lol Howard.
Doby, my Kanadian friend. I understand integrity.
But what about the guy that buys legal batteries with the paper labels that struggle to outlast a fart in a windstorm?:olleyes: Or the guy that removed heat shrink to dry out legal packs that have been wet? There are legitimate reasons why packs may not have the original data on them.


Back to that integrity thing.......

Screw it...easier to switch to gas/nitro.

[Doug Smock]

It was a hypothetical question Larry. But perhaps it should be addresses before it becomes a problem for some poor guy that has traveled 12 hrs. to a race.

FWIW the GP and Revo packs I tossed last year had no data on the cells unless it was turned in.

[Doby]

. But perhaps it should be addresses before it becomes a problem for some poor guy that has traveled 12 hrs. to a race.

.

That's exactly what I was getting at.

Is he going to be turned away for the sake of a few Mah?

To more or less quote some schmuck that's on here quite a bit..."they're only toy boats fellas"

[Doug Smock]

That's exactly what I was getting at.

Is he going to be turned away for the sake of a few Mah?

To more or less quote some schmuck that's on here quite a bit..."they're only toy boats fellas"

:stupid:

That's not an exact quote, but close enough. lol

[T.S.Davis]

Haha. You guys realize that this was the exact motivation for me having asked the question?

Some NAMBAnians are actually racing at Legg this weekend. Maybe we'll get some more thoughts after.

Let's not get bogged down with how the rule IS and focus on the truth. The truth is that there is no reason for them to be different. That's the collective hug John was talking about. Like I said, I race both orgs.

Maybe I'll just write a proposal. On paper I'm D2 director again with Fred retiring.

Nobody has sited a reason the limit should still be there. We just need some smarter way to deal with twins. That could get out of hand pretty quick.

[Doug Smock]

Some NAMBAnians are actually racing at Legg this weekend. Maybe we'll get some more thoughts after.


Yes and I noticed some of those paper label packs in one of the boats. I sure hope for records sake that they could still read the capacity on them.:wink:
I'm confident that the issue is in good hands.:smile:

[Brushless55]

........

[Brushless55]

That's exactly what I was getting at.

Is he going to be turned away for the sake of a few Mah?

To more or less quote some schmuck that's on here quite a bit..."they're only toy boats fellas"

exactly.. I have several 5100mah and 5500mah 4s packs :cool2:

[TRUCKPULL]

Haha. You guys realize that this was the exact motivation for me having asked the question?

Some NAMBAnians are actually racing at Legg this weekend. Maybe we'll get some more thoughts after.

Let's not get bogged down with how the rule IS and focus on the truth. The truth is that there is no reason for them to be different. That's the collective hug John was talking about. Like I said, I race both orgs.

Maybe I'll just write a proposal. On paper I'm D2 director again with Fred retiring.

Nobody has sited a reason the limit should still be there. We just need some smarter way to deal with twins. That could get out of hand pretty quick.

Terry

What about the HV Cells they are way above 3.70V nominal.

Larry

[photohoward1]

Terry

What about the HV Cells they are way above 3.70V nominal.

Larry

Yes please! Need an opinion or call on these. I see Hyperion is really pushing those.

[ray schrauwen]

I have 4 year old Turnigy 5800's I use in my p mono and I know they don't take 5800mah, 5000 at best. I have one set of revo packs than could be charged to higher than 4.2 except I don't have a charger to do this and have no plan on getting one. Even when the 5800s were new they did not compare to thunder power packs in almost same boat that Randall Thomas still owns. Randall still runs the old TP packs that Steve R. sold him with the boat.

Mah means much less when it comes to cheaper lipo's.

Sanctioned races, rules. Club racing is up to the club.

[T.S.Davis]

HV are why I was checking voltages. The "nominal" designation will likely go away with the next iteration of the power spec. That change will come when the cap is raised on the charged cell voltage. That's going to evolve when HV becomes more common than LV cells.

I've been told by multiple manufacturers that an HV cell charged only to 4.2 volts is pointless. That I'll not experience any gain. I would have thought maybe I was being sold a line of BS but I've even run some experimental cells and not found more performance so who knows really.

So, as long as you only charge to 4.2......I think there was some variation built into the rule..........then you will be allowed to run in MI. IMPBA doesn't have the nominal wording at all. Just the max charge per cell. Which is what NAMBA should be. We did add the charge voltage in there. We just didn't ditch the nominal yet.

I think of it as a transition phase. This way we don't turn away guys trying ro ready themselves for the next generation but also dont hand them some massive advantage over guys that already own a crate of cells either.

I personally feel that the spec should be like IMPBA. Max charge x cell count and that's it. Kinda above my pay grade though. Haha

Still the twins though........can't figure that part out in my head. I'm not sure length is enough of a limit to make a monster twin unrealistic.

[tjcast]

Just because you mentioned it.
141622

Mill and six.

I had so much fun on this course:rockon2:. Was able to run it with my Cheetah. Neu 1521, had 4 2s 6500 mah packs, 2 in series for 4s 6500 mah on both sides then in parallel to make 13,000 mah!!!

So much fun....:banana:

[Doug Smock]

Still the twins though........can't figure that part out in my head. I'm not sure length is enough of a limit to make a monster twin unrealistic.

The IC guys use max. displacement, or a separate engine class with max. displacement.

I have an opinion or two on twins and FE that I'll share with you in Atl. if your interested. I don't really want to kick that turd here.lol

[ray schrauwen]

I had so much fun on this course:rockon2:. Was able to run it with my Cheetah. Neu 1521, had 4 2s 6500 mah packs, 2 in series for 4s 6500 mah on both sides then in parallel to make 13,000 mah!!!

So much fun....:banana:

Very cool!

Is the tank close to empty after or how much left?

[RaceMechaniX]

You guys need to be careful as you just admitted to violating the capacity rules in NAMBA. Q and lower are limited to 10Ah total, S and T are limited to 12Ah total. While this may be OK for club running, this won't fly at nationals or larger events. Just saying........

[Doby]

Off with their heads!!!!

Lifetime ban!!!!!!!

We will have to have Ray branded "IMPBA Only" on his forehead.

[T.S.Davis]

You guys need to be careful as you just admitted to violating the capacity rules in NAMBA.

Not sure I saw that. Mostly just guys complaining about being stuck at 10k for Q. That setup Tom mentioned was at an IMPBA event.

[Doby]

......................

[Doug Smock]

When it comes right down to it you have no idea how many racers if any are violating the cap. rule. How could you??

[jaike5]

Prop down and stay within the mah rule limits :ohmy:
Cheers, Jay.

[tjcast]

Was right at 20%.

This was at an IMPBA event, so no mah restrictions

[ray schrauwen]

You guys need to be careful as you just admitted to violating the capacity rules in NAMBA. Q and lower are limited to 10Ah total, S and T are limited to 12Ah total. While this may be OK for club running, this won't fly at nationals or larger events. Just saying........

I'll never catch guys like you Tyler, no matter how many mah I carry. The reason I mentioned it was to be open and honest. P mono for me is more about just trying to get around the pins without hitting anyone. I never charge them past 90% and they are 25c-35c. I bought them originally before I came to any Michigan/NAMBA event because I was always running IMPBA races before. I think this will be their 6th season. When I run my 2 year old dinogys 5000's its much faster, better cells, lighter. Limited budget, I run what I have. All other classes are 10k or less. This boat is now retired to limited class racing where I'll us the same packs just only 1 of them. If I get my new p mono done Somme year, it'll be 10k max. I'm more guilty of being nasty cheap than at racing cheat.

[ray schrauwen]

Was right at 20%.

This was at an IMPBA event, so no mah restrictions

Thanks Tom.

[ray schrauwen]

Prop down and stay within the mah rule limits :ohmy:
Cheers, Jay.

Actually I do prop down. I'm very conservative with props. My goal 6 years ago was to see how long some of the cheapest cells would last for P mono. So far I'm very happy with these cheap cells.

[jaike5]

Your doing well Ray, I'm on my third set of 4s 5000's for P , My giant power have been the best by far . the 30c and 50c have Been discharged/ neutralized and chucked .

Cheers, Jay

[raptor347]

Hey guys,
Good topic and thread (so far). I agree we need to address it, I'm just not sure how we should go about it.

The 2-lap at Legg gave me a lot of data to work through. You wouldn't believe the power levels being pushed through the P hydro. At the same time the Q boat was basically in heat race trim running sub 8 second laps with plenty of capacity to run the mill and a mile+. P boat carried 6000 mah, the Q boat carried 6600mah.

The nominal voltage wording can go. I'm leaning towards scrapping capacity limits but adding a max pack weight. I don't agree that leaving the energy storage wide open is a good idea. That being said, I'm not making the decisions, just recommendations. I freely admit to being one of the guys who will happily walk through those gaps in the rules, I will never use the "that wasn't the intent" argument.

I'll be home next Monday, give me some time to re-read the rules and think about it. I also really want to dig into my data logs to make sure what I think I'm seeing is real.

[T.S.Davis]

We haven't even been reduced to name calling yet. So.......................slacker! What have you been doing? Besides setting some spooky fast times? That doesn't count.

[RaceMechaniX]

It is probably time for an amendment to our NAMBA's FE rules change with the current crop of batteries. I will likely write a proposal after speaking with Brian.

What I have noticed is most "5000" cells are actually 5100 or higher capacity cells with a 5000mAh sticker. I recently tested a new battery that was labeled as a 5100mAh pack. Over 5 cycles it averaged 4970mAh between 3.7V/cell and 4.2V/cell. Overcharging conventional cell and HV cells typically add 250-500mAh per 5000mAh pack from my testing. For example charging to 4.35V over 4.25V.

While this may make minimal difference in heat racing, it does make a difference in timed offshore races and some time trial events. With all the variations in cell sizes it easy to slap a 5000mAh sticker on a 5800mAh cell. As Brian mentioned using a cell weight may be the easiest to level the playing field and it's easy to tech. High density cells like HK's Heavy duty packs may have greater power potential with a more limited capacity while a TP "lite" 25C pack may have more capacity for the same weight but cannot deliver the power potential as the Heavy Duty cells.

TG

[raptor347]

The 16.9 with the P hydro was crazy.

Other than that, 5 week grand jury duty. 5-6 cases a day, all felonies all the the time! You just can't bleach some of that stuff out of your mind.

Built a few new molds. Spent a lot of time on prop development. Being Dad every day and working on the house. Normal stuff.

Any of you guys going to make it out for the Nats?

[T.S.Davis]

Any of you guys going to make it out for the Nats?

Spotta. 3 of us planning to make the trip out for the NATS. So far that is. Should be a hoot. That jury duty thing sucks. Necessary as a citizen and all that but ugh. You can't un-see or un-hear stuff.

16.9 is crazy. Reeling in Truex .01 second at a time from here. Think you have the speed but just need a better line or is it a combo?

Down side to a max weight per cell would be that we would once again have a different rule set from IMPBA. Not saying I'm against it either way but something to consider I think. I'd prefer any cross over racers either way not have to re-think their stuff to go racing. It's already annoying the way it is now. They're not finding the open cap to be an issue but they also don't have any rules for FE offshore so they wouldn't see it.

Maybe that's the answer. 12k for everything and no cap if your running offshore. Just thinking out loud.

[Doby]

You don't need a gas tank the size of the Titanic to race offshore (P-Limited in this case) I run a single, boring, cheap Turnigy 5800 25C in my stock Revolt and have no issues finishing/winning with about 20% (ish) left over. Even more if the conditions are rougher.

Stick with IMPBA "limits" so we can all get along.

[Doug Smock]

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/forumdisplay.php?f=48&pp=30&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1&page=2

Just in case anyone wants to review. lol

[RaceMechaniX]

Doug are you going to make it to Huntsville next Week?

[Doug Smock]

Hey Tyler,
No sir, that one fell too close to the Spring Nats.:sad:
A few of us are planning to make the trip later in the year though.

Good luck! You should have plenty of room to stretch her legs now if the weather cooperates.

[TRUCKPULL]

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/forumdisplay.php?f=48&pp=30&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1&page=2

Just in case anyone wants to review. lol

Thanks Doug

A lot of old memories their.:doh::doh::confused2::tape:

Larry

[T.S.Davis]

Just went back and read some of those old posts. It was a dark hateful time for FE. We all typed some mean spirited crap. Interesting that some of names that were the most belligerent then still are. The same abrasive rhetoric from some members of the racing community back then can be found here too. It's also really sad. We've lost some good people since I've been playing with toy boats. Some quit. Some have passed on. I'm grateful that FE racing survived. I'm also thrilled that I'm not the chairman.

One thing that I caught that I posted back 8 or so years ago was that I was against anything that I thought would further divide FE. I'm a member of both organizations. I race with both organizations. If any changes are made to either organizations battery spec can we please have a conversation about keeping them similar? I don't care if it's just the IMPBA chair calls the NAMBA chair and they cook up something sane. Just so long as they are similar. Discuss it privately on the phone with people those guys trust. Whatever. Just keep them similar. Re-thinking setups is a nuisance.

I'm okay with multiple organizations. When in Rome, hang out with some Romans.

"Oh, you're in Rome? Go find some Chinese people to hang out with"
"There are almost no chines people in Rome so I guess I'll just stay in my room"

Makes no sense.

Having a different rule structure for each organization is stupid. Maybe "stupid" is too harsh. Okay, how about foolish? It would be different if we had car racing numbers but we're a tiny population that actually wants to race. We have to stick together.

[rayzerdesigns]

I have no problems with the mah limit but thats me.. In plim offshore i can burn 8000 mah.. And in p offshore i have to prop down to come in at 2% left..but thats the fun of it

[Darin Jordan]

Just to put in my $0.02... I've looked at a LOT of battery curves and loads over the past couple of years. I can definitively tell you, with data to clearly back it up, that more mAh means more loaded voltage. It's that simple. The more you have, the less voltage suppression you get. There may be a practical limit. I'm not sure, but there certainly is a benefit to more.

Nothing shows this more clearly than on my 1-Cell SAW setups. I self limited my setup to 5000mAh, to try to keep in the spirit of how the Europeans run their events (battery cell weight limits), so I could see how my performance would compare. NO extra solder joints, no extra wire, etc... Just on cell, a + and a - tab, and a power system.

NOW, I will also say that having the DEFINED limits that we presently do makes it hard to find cells sometimes... 5000's aren't the "norm" out there, where the RC CAR/TRUCK market drives things, and they keep creeping the sizes up... 5300mAh, 5700mAh... etc. So finding combos can be difficult.

Bottom line, though, is that more mAh means more Voltage under Load, which means more speed. That's just the way it is.

[jaike5]

So if 5500mah are allowed in 2,3,4,5,6s, in a 2p set up, 2000mah extra is quite an advantage , or even more with miss labeling. And yet again buy more batteries to keep a level playing field. Keep the max at 10k mah prop down for offshore.

Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

"If any changes are made to either organizations battery spec can we please have a conversation about keeping them similar? I don't care if it's just the IMPBA chair calls the NAMBA chair and they cook up something sane".

I hear you, really do.

I don't expect to see a change in battery spec. in the IMPBA until the HV cells go mainstream. A quick update of the safety rules by the BOD and it's done. Capacity limits? Not interested in addressing a problem that doesn't exist.:wink:

My hope is that if we put something in place in NAMBA, it will be something that can, and will be teched. Why bother otherwise?

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah but how do I prove it Jay? Say I dunk my batteries repeatedly. I do by the way. The labels get sacrificed when I peel the shrink to dry them out properly. I go to a race with my exactly 10k worth of 4s2p and stomp the crap out of everyone. How do I prove to a CD or a protest committee that I'm legal?

For that matter, lets say a racer has what appear to be the right stickers on his batteries. They say 4s/5000 on the labels. He stomps everybody. Someone protests because they are convinced he's cheating. How does a CD prove that someone is not legal?

Right now there is a difference between the two orgs rules. I don't like that there is a divide. A solve? I don't know.

[T.S.Davis]

Not interested in addressing a problem that doesn't exist.:wink:


Agreed Doug but is it possible that it's not an issue for IMPBA because WE (almost said you) don't have offshore?

You can run offshore in limited with 1P but you can't run do it in P or Q or even N2. I wont run P mono on 1P. Not because it isn't possible but because the cells get all pissed off about it when I do. I would prefer them to last a little longer.

[Darin Jordan]

Not pushing this, one way or the other, but it should be part of the discussion to consider that actually TECH'ing the current NAMBA mAh limits isn't practical, or even possible, at all but the most well-equipped racing venues. I doubt anyone other than Tyler, and maybe one or two others, actually has the correct equipment to do it fairly, and I think it would be a laborious process...

Just Sayin'

[NativePaul]

Having raced to Naviga rules with LiPo weight restrictions for years, I would advise against going that way, even though it is the only way that can be realistically teched.

[Darin Jordan]

Having raced to Naviga rules with LiPo weight restrictions for years, I would advise against going that way, even though it is the only way that can be realistically teched.

I think this might be why the IMPBA just doesn't have any limits. They aren't REAL limits if they can't be tech'd, and, frankly, they can't be accurately.

[Doug Smock]

Agreed Darin. Good to hear from you on this Paul, would like to hear more.

Hey Terry, glad you didn't say you. lol Yes, we are ALL in this together.

You, we, lol, (it shouldn't be this complicated) can run offshore in the IMPBA, just don't have specific FE offshore rules.
I'm not understanding why not having capacity limits is a problem for offshore. I would think that no capacity limits would solve more problems than it creates.
Personally, I'd be worried about the pitting next to a guy that is charging the cells that he just "pissed off",again.:wink:

I lack offshore experience, what have I missed?

Thanks fellas.

[Doby]

In my experience, people win the majority of the races not because they have a bigger gas tank and can pull more consistent voltage out of the LiPos.....

Its because they can set up there boats properly and DRIVE!!!!! (Luck helps as well)

[RaceMechaniX]

Doug, We'll cross paths at another venue now that I am on the East Coast.

In gas/nitro/FE open offshore run at a district level you can pretty much run your full 6-lap set-up with full power. Race duration may be around 2-3 minutes. It's hard on the batteries, but I would argue not as hard as a timed 4 min race.

In regards to NAMBA 4 min FE offshore (excluding P-ltd) it is very much a balance of trying to get maximum efficiency from your power system and boat with hopefully a little left over in the cells to avoid severe degradation. Running 4 minutes with the same set-up as you normal heat race boat will kill the batteries around the 3 min mark (from experience). Most guys and gals who race FE offshore have specific boats with reduced power systems or smaller props that reduce current draw. I would estimate most of them come back with single digit % left in the cells(I do). Don't get me wrong, it is a great challenge trying to make a boat survive 4 min with very equal boats without completely destroying cells. I recall the NAMBA FE nats back in 2012 in Michigan where one diehard racer must have destroyed two or three pairs of batteries in multiple offshore classes trying to beat the competition.

Everyone to my knowledge likely runs the maximum 10Ah(N2,P and Q) or 12Ah(for S and T) in the offshore classes. If NAMBA allowed free capacity limits, I believe most would add another 5Ah maybe more to the hulls to be more powerful. The extra weight would not be such a penalty if you had more capacity.

-Tyler

[Doug Smock]

Looking forward to it Tyler. Good luck this weekend!

[jaike5]

Hi Terry, I'm with yuh on the dunk'n thing !! mine are marked with a sharpie . Dig out your old triple beam weed scale and weigh the packs, any suspects charge them up and check with multi meter, any problems your out of the class for the weekend. Pain in the ass I know, If everyone knows your checking 1st, 2nd, 3rd. should keep everything on the up and up.
prop down for offshore will keep you out of the single digits for the % left in your packs.
Cheers, Jay.

[NativePaul]

OK a couple of people have asked me to explain my aversion to weight limits so here goes. Feel free to ignore me as I am not a NAMBA member and have no intention of becoming one in the foreseeable future. I have read the NAMBA rule book and seen a lot of race videos, but have never attended a NAMBA race, and the last time I spoke face to face with NAMBA racers and saw NAMBA boats we were all running NiCads, from what I gather it has affected us more than it will most of you, it should only affect 2p racers not 1p, and except the offshore runners they could mitigate all the problems just by running 8000mAh ish instead of 10000mAh+, so only offshore racers would feel the pain after the first year.

Firstly I should probably explain why we in Naviga have a limit. Almost all our classes are timed endurance races similar to your Offshore classes. With a set time and voltage, limiting the capacity of the pack will limit the average amp draw and wattage keeping racers on a level playing field and giving us close races.

Why didn't we just use a capacity limit? Realistically it can't be teched. The cell makers can't agree on a cutoff voltage for capacity measuring, and the capacity of any given pack will change depending on the discharge current and temperature, after much arguing it may be possible to come up with a set of lenient conditions for discharging that would be the same for all, but you would spend longer teching your cells than you do racing, and nobody wants that, I suspect that we would have very few racers left if that happened. Personally I would rather have an untechable limit, take it on trust that my fellow racers are playing by the rules and be beaten by the odd cheater, than have an easily techable weight limit, read on to find out why.

Why did we choose the LiPo weight limit if it is such a bad idea? Pack weights limit capacity and thus power to keep racing close and is easy quick and cheap to tech, anyone can use a digital scale with little training, you can tech a pack quicker than you can sign and fit a tamperproof sticker, and you can get accurate digital scales for just a few pounds/dollars/euros/yuan. The only other semi viable alternative was a F5B/F5D style electronic power limiter, and at the time they were still in there infancy, would need to be altered to our use, were an additional expense we would have had to make on our already expensive hobby, and quite frankly I dont think anyone invisioned that weight limits would become problematic. The limits we chose were 110g for Mini classes 280g for 2 cell classes and 560g for 4 cell classes, which with the then current technology gave us about the same capacity of the top NiMh cells which were 7cell 1600mAh for minis and 7/12 cell 5000mAh for the full size classes which allowed rough parity for the changeover season. Looking back I could probably have bought 2 power limiters for every boat in my fleet and still had money left over.

What is wrong with using LiPo weight limits? You don't always know what you are getting, I must have spent hundreds of pounds over the years on LiPos that were overweight and never saw the inside of a boat, some advertised weight are off, some advertise the weight of the cells as the pack weight, I have had legal weight packs from one batch then on the next order of the same packs had them overweight, I have taken my scales into an LHS and found a 15% variance between a basket of the same packs so some would have been legal and some not.
Tyler mentioned TP "lite" cells which brought our <110g Mini's capacity up from 1600-2100mAh and they are a few years old now, the current state of affairs gives us 2650mAh for the same 110g and 7200mAh under 280/560g, while not as high as a "high C" pack the voltage is pretty good so there is a healthy advantage to be had from running them, but there is no such thing as a free lunch and the cells are not as robust so while they cost the same you will need top replace them more and spend much more over time on the high capacity cells. The newcomer can't always tell what they are getting either, take these 65C-130C Aspec 6600mAh cells (http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__24309__Turnigy_nano_tech_A_SPEC_6600mah_2S_65_13 0C_Lipo_Boat_Pack.html), you might think that they were robust "high C" cells, but there is no way in hell, check the weight i know they have short leads, but they are 30g heavier than the same brand's 65-130C 5000mAh that are not marketed towards boaters, in fact they have a remarkably similar shape, size, weight and discharge curve as cells sold by another make as 20C.
The cost of progress, battery technology increases year on year but with a capacity limit the improvement is only voltage under load and is a relatively small difference each year not being worth an upgrade, but with weight we are getting big capacity improvements which directly relate to power so even if the cells weren't fragile and lasted forever, you would probably want new cells every year or two anyway, this year packs have gone from 6800-7200 a 6% capacity boost last year it was 6600-6800 so 9% capacity in two years plus voltage under load improvements, so probably around 10% extra power over someone with 2 year old technology.
Brian mentioned pushing the rules and this has happened with batteries the rules say the cells must be covered in heat shrink, but a few years down the line the silver cell casing is heat shrink, wires are either nominal or connectors are soldered directly onto tabs, balance wires are tiny or sometimes holes are drilled into tabs for separate balance leads to be inserted when charging, there is little in the way of strain relief, so tab and balance wire failures are not uncommon, and you can kiss goodbye to the ease of mounting cells with velcro. Tenshock are amongst the best cells we have available so I won't knock them, but check out the instructions for their packs (http://www.tenshock.com/blog/battery_make/) to see what we are dealing with, I am not keen on it myself and it is certainly not a way to get youngsters into the sport.
If you live near the sea and want to silicone up your cells you have to either take the disadvantage of running less capacity to allow for the extra weight, or not do it and risk your cells. On the subject of water, you can put legal cells in your boat, develop a leak for one reason or another and now your wet cells are overweight and illegal.
Last but not least is availability, there are 3 competitive cells for each class that I know of and none of which are available anywhere in my country, and all need to be imported.

What are we doing about it? we are trying to get away from it as fast as we can. On a club level most clubs in the UK are already offering an alternative to the weight system where you can chose to go by capacity if you prefer as long as the shrink and label are unadulterated from the distributer. On a national level it has been proposed that we adopt a 2 tier system where if you are trying to qualify for the Naviga worlds you have to go by the naviga weight rules, but those not interested in racing abroad can chose weight or capacity as they prefer. At an international level Naviga are looking at F5B/F5D electronic power limiters again, as everyone now knows it isn't really an added expense as we originally thought it would be, and I believe some prototypes are being made as I type. (off topic so PM me if you want, but Brian I would like to know your views on this as I think you come from an F5D background.)






As an aside from my experience with weight limits, I have long thought of your 10000/12000 limit or no capacity limit for sprint races was unlimited power, just because it is so much more power than we have available with our 6 minute races, whereas it has of course been limited by the availability of reliable high current ESCs. With the discussion of twins in this thread I take it that twins have started appearing effectively doubling power availability, are you worried at all by the new MGM 400A and 800A ESCs that would allow leagues more power from singles, and that the first one to go there might cause a cascade reaction meaning next year you would all have empty wallets and MGMs with 2220/1Ds in your P boats, or is your current power pushing your hull lengths to their limits already?

[NativePaul]

Oops.

[RaceMechaniX]

Good discussion Paul,

There are some twins being raced mostly in the hydro classes and the T classes. Although twins could double the power of a class, there are few classes for heat racing that could take full advantage. The boats are also prohibitively expensive to build and given the lack of popularity you only get to run them at larger events or in open class racing at the district level. Large singles tend to be the preferred setup for open racing although there are some big twin electric riggers being built by several guys across the country.

P mono is an excellent example of variety. The 34" length limits slows all out power wars. You will see the full spectrum of competitive power systems from a Castle 1515 1Y and T-180 ESC to Neu 1530 1D with Castle Hydra 240's or LMT 2260's with Schulzes. The standard and reliable power system is the Neu 1521 1.5D with 4S2P 10Ah total. Hull set-up and driving skills make this a very competitive class.

SAW's are the one exception where twin's are gaining popularity particularly in the Cat classes where the HPR, MHZ and similar hulls are being built for maximum speed. These are very high power set-ups which use every inch of the rules to their advantage. The top level guys are pushing 50kW+ with 10SP to 14S2P using old Schulzes and hot wind LMT 30 series motors.

Tyler

[Doug Smock]

Thanks for posting Paul.

[T.S.Davis]

The length limits work. As far as I can tell at least. I can throw a ton of power in the water with a P mono but I can't finish with it to save my life. I've tried.

Jay, you keep coming back to an "advantage" a 12k offshore racer would have over a 10k racer. The discussion isn't about giving anyone an advantage. It's about potentially changing a rule for all. We would all have the same options. Right now it's 10k for Q and under. The bummer there is that very frequently the Q offshore boats run with the S/T offshore boats. So you're handicapped with a Q. If the limit was 12k we would all do that. If it's 100000000000000k then the length limits are THE limits. That's my thinking at least. A can build a 6000 watt P mono but it wont make it to the first turn with it only being 34" long.

This is kind of the premise under which IMPBA is currently operating. The results I've asked about a couple times seem to indicate that their rules not having capacity limits is of little relevance because they do have the length limits in place.

This whole discussion is likely premature. Sorry guys. The time to address it is likely during the next chem change that we are seeing more and more of. HV is likely the next gen and we'll revisit capacities then. I predict at least.

[Doug Smock]

Premature? I don't thin so Lucy?

Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

[Doby]

Premature? I don't thin so Lucy?

Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks
How would you confirm the capacity without fully discharging and re-charging?

[Doug Smock]

How would you confirm the capacity without fully discharging and re-charging?

The same way it's not being done now.:wink::smile:

[Doby]

Simple Solution:

At this years Mich Cup Race...prior to every heat....

#1) Racers charge up their packs.

#2) Terry runs around with a volt meter and checks all packs to be used in the heat.

#3) Terry then watches every racer discharge their packs on a certified charger (that either the club supplies each racer, or each racer has to provide) Documentation as to the accuracy of the certified chargers must be of course provided from a certified calibration facility, approved by NAMBA, but left open to IMPBA members personal choice.

#4) Terry then watches every racer charge their packs on the same charger as listed in #3.

#5) Terry then records the actual capacity of the racers packs.

#6) Terry then records the actual voltage of the racers packs.

#7) Terry then certifies the racers individual packs and quarantines them for use throughout the event by the racer.

#8) Terry then repeats #2 through #7 for all packs used by all racers in all heats.

This results in:

#9) Terry, at the end of the 3 weeks of racing (#2 through #8 will not happen in a 3 day event) checks himself in to a local AA meeting for some much needed therapy.

#10) Terry's wife leaves him....her only reason given is "REALLY??" after he tries to explain the logic of all of this.

#11) Terry's club switches from NAMBA to IMPBA, his only reason given to his other club members is "REALLY??"

#12) No-one shows up to race at the 2017 Cup...only reason given is "REALLY??"

#13) Everyone sells their boats, buys airplanes and lives happily ever after...except for Terry....he's curled up in the fetal position, sucking his thumb, repeating "Really??", over and over...................all while hugging his favorite FE boat.....a puddle of drool on the floor gradually grows larger and larger after the days pass by...:drool:

[B Neal]

Hypotheticals really don't do this thread justice with all the good info stated here.

Facts are impba has no limits, namba is on the honor system, naviga is on the weight system.

Impba = path of least resistance no way to believe or assume a racer has an advantage

Namba = path with transistor, possible assumptions a racer is breaking a rule gaining advantage

Naviga = path of most resistance, from Paul's post, scary safety posibilities trying to reduce battery weight attempting to gain advantage.

With all that said if I could in some cases run more Mah I would.

Namba racers that are not honoring the rule / guideline / Mfg advertised Mah is just fooling themselves and wasting this earths air supply.

Either Namba goes no restriction, or weight limit to allow the heaviest of heaviest cells (wait for all mfg'ers to start producing HV cells for proper weight numbers) or leave it be.

My thoughts
Brian

[rayzerdesigns]

Well i guess its up to namba to change it.. Or for someone to propose it first

[T.S.Davis]

Well i guess its up to namba to change it.. Or for someone to propose it first

Yep.

I feel that the mah restrictions are silly as there is no practical way to verify it. Plus, if you go out and buy a Revo cell for instance but you never charge it to 4.35 or what ever it is.............is it still a 5800mah pack like the label says? Not really. If Revo guy charges to 4.2 instead of 4.35 and never gets to even 5000mah is he a cheater? Not by me he isn't.

I know I've said this before but the next gen batteries will require some careful timing to take the lid off them. We don't want to yank the proverbial rug out from under anyone's fleet.

John, that was awesome. Pretty accurate too. Although, a 2017 cup? Do I have too?

[RandyatBBY]

I think if the Mah limit was lifted the 5000 Mah packs (and getting scarce) would not be so high priced and would open up the use of 5200Mah and 5600MAH packs that are cheaper. Old retired view of racing. But there will all be some on saying ware does it all stop? 8000Mah packs and 2P or evan 3P???

[raptor347]

So, this has all the usual potential for becoming ugly and devisive. We really don't need it. NAMBA, IMPBA and NAVIGA all implemented Lipo rules at slightly different times in the evolution of the cells and with different levels of experience with the tech. At the time, NAMBA sticking with round cells for another season would have killed off most participation. The price, durability and reliability of the cells had made them very unattractive. I think the IMPBA rules show some lessons learned from out implementation and NAVIGA incorporated the experience of the FAI pilots in Europe.

I'll be happy to admit that the mah limit are not practical to measure, especially in a heat racing format. For record trials, it hasn't been an issue because most serious competitors are running 1P systems and the largest capacity cell that has any real performance potential is ~6000mah. The advent of the big twin cats and a few other projects I know about are going to make this a bit more challenging.

As far as huge horsepower applications not being practical. I agree that a 34" mono isn't going to handle a 6kW power system well, but that's the one hull type that doesn't lend itself to very high power. I can see where a sport hydro, rigger or possibly a cat could use the power. When you step up to the 40" limit for Q, there is all kinds of room to use up power. There are a few other subtle differences between NAMBA and IMPBA FE rules. NAMBA allows twins in P, IMPBA doesn't. IMPBA has a 60" length limit for all outrigger classes, NAMBA applies the same length limits across all hull types. Namba has a a timed 4 minute offshore endurance class, IMPBA doesn't. I guess what I'm saying is the batteries aren't the only difference in rule sets, so seamless transition from one to the other has other obstacles.

So here's what I learned from the latest 2-lap at Legg.
-A 6kW heat race P rigger is very possible, even within the 34" limit.
-Q boats have the potential of about 9kW in heat trim. That's sticking within the 10k mah limit.
-Is everyone going to show up with one, probably not.
-Am I going to try and build them, absolutely!
-Would I like a bigger fuel tank for these applications, maybe:wink:.
-Finally, do I think we need some limit to the size of the fuel tank, yes we do. We also need a good way to tech it.

That being said, this is something WE need to figure out. The 3.7 nominal wording can go, I think we all agree there.

[Darin Jordan]

But there will all be some on saying ware does it all stop? 8000Mah packs and 2P or evan 3P???

Randy,

Just for the sake of clarifying... NAMBA already has UNLIMITED paralleling. In other words, there are NO restrictions on Paralleling in the present NAMBA rules. Only mAh limits.

[Doug Smock]

Thanks for posting Brian, good to know your thoughts on this.

We're trying to figure what we're going to do for the Michigan race.
Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

[raptor347]

Thanks for posting Brian, good to know your thoughts on this.

We're trying to figure what we're going to do for the Michigan race.
Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. The choice to buy HV cells is the racers to make, not being able to use the full marked capacity as well as how those cells fit within class specs should be considered when making that purchase decision.

When going racing, it's the racers job to comply (or not, depending on the racers morality) with the rules as written, good or bad. Let's face it, rules range from really good to really bad. NAMBA's capacity rule doesn't fall under the "good" end of the spectrum, the term "flawed" comes to mind. That being said, for the time being we're stuck with what we have. There's no mechanism in NAMBA that I know of to arbitrarily disregard any given rule.

It's pretty obvious that we all recognize there's an issue. NAMBA's rule change process takes some time, each organization does it differently. In the mean time, racers need to practice a little due diligence and do their best to comply with the rule set we have. It's not really that tough.

The point of this discussion is to figure out what direction we want to take going forward.

BTW. Soaking your batteries until the labels fall off is really hard on the tabs.:wink:

[Doug Smock]

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. :

Thanks, that's all I needed.:wink:

[RandyatBBY]

The 16.9 with the P hydro was crazy.

Other than that, 5 week grand jury duty. 5-6 cases a day, all felonies all the the time! You just can't bleach some of that stuff out of your mind.

Built a few new molds. Spent a lot of time on prop development. Being Dad every day and working on the house. Normal stuff.

Any of you guys going to make it out for the Nats?

Do Not think so I was, but Hot August night in Reno is too close.

[RandyatBBY]

Randy,

Just for the sake of clarifying... NAMBA already has UNLIMITED paralleling. In other words, there are NO restrictions on Paralleling in the present NAMBA rules. Only mAh limits.

ya I knew that. I go by what the label says and do not go over this would help a lot.

[T.S.Davis]

Sooooo, nobody in NAMBA is allowed to run HV cells regardless of what they are charged to. This is according to our chairman.

No progress going forward as the next generation are not allowed.

By this thinking there can be no development in NAMBA going forward. New classes like Limited spec once was wont be part of NAMBA's future. Before there was a rule set for "limited" we ran LSH and allowed RTR power. To do so made all the boats illegal.

HV cells WILL be allowed in MI provided they are not charged past 4.23v. We just wont sanction the race. So no records. Sorry guys.

[jaike5]

Insured if disregarding rules ???, price reduction on entrance fees for non sanctioned event ?
sorry man, every ones thinking it, I'm just say'n it !!

Cheers, Jay.

[Darin Jordan]

Sooooo, nobody in NAMBA is allowed to run HV cells regardless of what they are charged to. This is according to our chairman.



Terry, I wouldn't say it's according to our Chairman.... It's the messed up rules, as they are currently written.

Let's point the blame where it belongs. I'm sure Brian doesn't like this any more than anyone else, but it's how the previous members have proposed and voted the rules in.

Let's be honest here; The rules are ALWAYS written based on the presently available technology for FE. It's nearly impossible to imagine and to predict what might come next. Even harder to write rules to consider it. Ridding the nominal voltage and going with a maximum was a start. Obviously not perfect.

We need to work together to fix this. Let's not start pointing fingers. The last thing NAMBA or IMPBA needs is for us to start another internet bickering session. This is NOT a great form of communication. People, for some reason, don't seem to take these as "Cold Beer Conversations"... I'm pretty certain that, were we all sitting at the bar or around a campfire, we'd all still walk away as friends. :)

[Darin Jordan]

Wait... I'm trying not to be involved... Oh, well hell... I guess that's blown. :)

The simplest solution would be to rework the rules to remove the mAh restrictions, much like IMBPA has, and then just police maximum voltages, for now.

The trade-off is that people would need to NOT go around bitching if someone shows up with some outside-the-box, use the rules to their benefit, thinking. Is the extra battery weight a good tradeoff for the additional voltage under load? This IS racing, after all. Someone's GOING be better at figuring that stuff out than others. Nature of that beast.

In my opinion, the higher voltage batteries are only an advantage in the LTD classes, which IMPBA doesn't even support/have-rules-for, officially, so for them it's a mute issue for them. Clearly the HV batteries WOULD be an advantage for NAMBA racers, but they aren't exclusive, so at some point, just like with Lipos, everyone has the opportunity to step up.

In the "open motor" classes, while initially costly, you CAN select a motor better suited for the available voltage, which would negate the advantages of the extra voltage in large part, especially when capacity isn't an issue.

The bottom line for me is the following: WHAT CAN BE ENFORCED, Practically speaking??

We can't enforce, with any level of practicality, the existing rules. Mock them if you will, but that's how it is. They were put in place in good faith, but as we have become more sophisticated, perhaps we need to rethink them?

[rayzerdesigns]

Darin the higher voltage batteries are without a doubt an advantage in limited..I just tested a set in my lsh last week out of my touring car.. Which by the way aren't roar legal as of yet.. First set of my normal pack I run charged to 4.23 per cell 56.1 mph.. Now stepping up to reedy hv cells charged to only 4.5 per cell saw a max of 58.2 mph.. That is significant..like you said not sure they will help much in anything but the limited classes.. But the technology is there..now back to subject of mah restrictions.. I can go either way..since nambas offshore is 4 minutes I think it's fun trying to get the most out of limited mah.. But I also think it would be cool to not have the restriction to go faster.. Lol..

[Darin Jordan]

I can go either way..since nambas offshore is 4 minutes I think it's fun trying to get the most out of limited mah.. But I also think it would be cool to not have the restriction to go faster.. Lol..

Yes, all good points. I don't think I'm in disagreement with you on the HV batteries. Clearly an advantage in LTD classes.

So, to be more clear on my point regarding mAh restrictions, I would clearly be in favor of some limits. My issue is HOW DO YOU TECH THEM?? That's the rub.

Maybe that's the question that we need to focus on answering? Personally, I don't see a decent way to do it. Weight seems the most practical, but also has some issues.

Frankly, anytime you put ANY words in a rulebook, you're going to have issues, however. General rule: Don't write it down if you can't enforce it. :)

[T.S.Davis]

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. The choice to buy HV cells is the racers to make, not being able to use the full marked capacity as well as how those cells fit within class specs should be considered when making that purchase decision.

Sorry, I'm out of line. Brian didn't write the rules.

The rules don't allow any HV's period. 3.7v nominal only. Always. Every time. Letter of the law. End of discussion.
Don't run more than 10k worth of labels 6s and below. Ever. Letter of the law. End of discussion.

I think I'm going to peel the labels off everything I own regardless of their capacity and make someone figure out what I'm running. 2200's, 3750's, 4000's, ,4500's, 5000's. My 5.8k and 6k's only run in T. Throw on some fresh shrink and no labels. All legal but I want someone to prove me wrong.

The tech is evolving again. There are no provisions for us to phase it in. HV will be illegal one day and legal the very next day. We can't write the rules to anticipate every future change but if there is a way to phase something in without flushing existing gear or giving a distinct advantage to the new tech we should do it. Call it a band-aide.

If we're going to stick to the letters of the law there is no way for us to transition to the new technology. Used to be we would run a proposal for a year for proof of concept but since that's not legal to do we'll have to just go from HV illegal to HV legal over night.

I'll start penciling the proposal to allow both HV and open capacity. Many will be replace all of their power now or all of it later so there's no real reason to wait. Just timing. Might as well flip the switch sooner than later.

[Darin Jordan]

I'll start penciling the proposal to allow both HV and open capacity. Many will be replace all of their power now or all of it later so there's no real reason to wait. Just timing. Might as well flip the switch sooner than later.

I'll stand behind you on this... way, WAY, behind you!! :) :hide:

And, in all seriousness.... if you want this to be legit racing, yes, you build and race to the letter of the rules. Otherwise, were just spending a lot of time and money on "fun-runs"...

[T.S.Davis]

If we have unenforceable rules that we've never tech'd then hasn't it all been fun running?

Anybody tech'd a limited motor on site? Looked at the can and called it good didn't ya?

[Darin Jordan]

If we have unenforceable rules that we've never tech'd then hasn't it all been fun running?

Anybody tech'd a limited motor on site? Looked at the can and called it good didn't ya?

Terry,

Perhaps part of my point. Maybe that's why IMPBA doesn't HAVE P-LTD??

And, YES, to the very best of our abilities, we've "tech'd" P-LTD motors. Much like ROAR, they/we Spec a list of legal motors, all of which can/will be visually inspected. If something is in deeper question, they get further scrutiny.

Much like batteries, however, a good chunk of this it taken on faith.

You can only do the best you can do under the current set of rules. That's what we've been doing.

Now, tech has changed, and also people are wanting a more definitive answer to mAh limitations.

Let's discuss that. Not sure why anger and beating each other up has to come into play. Pragmatism and reason should prevail.

[T.S.Davis]

My point is that we're suggesting a hard line on the "rules" even though historically we haven't taken that hard line.

No HV even if kept with legal limits. No mah in excess of the letter of the law (on the labels of course) even if (in theory) they are kept within legal limits. Failure to comply with this is just fun running.

We're not hard lining the rules right now. Not where power is concerned. We can't and we haven't. Because it's not possible/practical.

The letter of the law says 10000mah under Q. I tell my charger to shut off at 4.2v. I don't know for sure how many mah I'm carrying. I bought 10k but I don't really know anything. Nowhere in the letter of the law does it say anything about the labels on my packs. Says I can carry 10k. Am I? Don't know. It is however my job as a racer to know. Brian mentioned that. My responsibility. I don't however have the ability or the equipment to verify that I'm legal.

I guess I want some reasonable/practical application of a rule set that we all understand has problems. The power was a compromise form the start because we couldn't move forward at the time. Needs an update. Pretty sure we're all thinking that way.

What I don't want is anyone fearing that they will be not allowed to race at an event because we're hard line enforcing a rule that has never ever been verified before. A pair of 5200 HV's charged to just 4.2 volts should not be a problem for any venue. That guy is carrying the correct voltage and is under on mah.....in theory of course.

[Doug Smock]

Yes the issues with teching is why the IMPBA hasn't officially adopted the Limited classes. I imagine that's why they don't have capacity limits as well.

Guys we are all very passionate about our hobby but we MUST keep this discussion on the surface.:hug1:

I posted that link to the red board as a reminder of where we don't want to go.:wink:

I don't have an answer for capacity limits. Sorry we're in this situation..........

D.

[T.S.Davis]

For the record. I am not yelling at Darin in any way. I'm not typing from the floor so I can kick my feet either.

Doug, I'm looking forward to coming down to your fun run in a few weeks.

[Darin Jordan]

For the record. I am not yelling at Darin in any way. I'm not typing from the floor so I can kick my feet either.


Honestly, I'd say that the only time these rules REALLY apply would be at a National event. Clubs can/will do whatever they want. That's how the "year worth of trial run" happens.

Hard line on the rules... Yes... at some point, you need to do that. Then, when you realize how broken they really are, you argue online for 6-months.... Right?? :bash: :lol:

It's clearly that time... time for a review and rewrite in order to adapt. But, just like P-LTD motors... just because there is a new mouse-trap available, doesn't mean it should be included at a National event... not yet, I wouldn't think.

[rayzerdesigns]

Honestly, I'd say that the only time these rules REALLY apply would be at a National event. Clubs can/will do whatever they want. That's how the "year worth of trial run" happens.

Hard line on the rules... Yes... at some point, you need to do that. Then, when you realize how broken they really are, you argue online for 6-months.... Right?? :bash: :lol:

It's clearly that time... time for a review and rewrite in order to adapt. But, just like P-LTD motors... just because there is a new mouse-trap available, doesn't mean it should be included at a National event... not yet, I wouldn't think.

I do like how it has to be written then submitted and voted on for a rule change.. I think it makes the Nationals or s big event that wants to follow nambas rules.. Say we allow hv cells now.. Well that would leave a lot of people scrambling to get cells for nationals just a few months away..terry write the proposal and submit it.. Then we can start the new year off with new stuff..I will tell you that rosr has had the hv cells for a while testing them.. For well over 6 months and haven't approved them.. Which seems interesting.. I will also tell u u won't just throw an hv cell or cells straight into ur current p limited setup.. U will burn some stuff up.. U are adding rpms and heat.. I have tested with them.. But I am also all for them.. But until it's written up and submitted and voted on.. We have what we have.. They wouldn't be voted on till years end and legal if passed till next year..

[raptor347]

I did quite a bit of reading last night and a couple phone calls this morning. Here's what we ended up with:
-3.7V nominal, 4.23V max and capacity are part of the racing rules, not the safety rules.
-You can sanction a race using HV cells, it should be stated on the race flier that these cells will be allowed and no records can be set.
-You need to define the maximum pack voltages and capacity limits (if any) for the classes being run.
-Make sure racers running standard cells aren't unsafely overcharging their cells to try to compete.

You can legally run HV cells at the local level, no problem. Someone should be running them for a baseline if nothing else.

The only events where the racing rules are truly set in stone are:
-Any sanctioned event resulting in record applications
-Nationals
-Time trials.

The safety rules are set in stone and everyone should take the time to reread them at the start of each season.

Terry, you're covered. The Cup will be a great race, wish I had time and cash to make it back. The records thing is what it is. Think of the paperwork you won't have to do.:biggrin:

With regard to P-ltd. IMPBA did it right. In all seriousness, I completely agree we made a mistake. It should never have been made a national class and definitely not a record legal class. The motors are inconsistent, even if we tore them down to the windings we wouldn't get reasonable spec ranges from different batches. I think we should get rid of that power catagory because it's truly un-techable. Please write the proposal and I'll happily back it.

If anyone wants to talk to me directly, my phone number is in the contacts list on the NAMBA web site. I'm going to go splash some glue around the shop.

[T.S.Davis]

We screwed the pooch on this when we added the charge voltages. Should have ditched the nominal wording then.

Just what if'n.....

Drop the mah restriction completely
Lose the "3.7v nominal" wording

This creates the transition phase that IMPBA is already into.

Then specify a date after which we up the maximum charged voltage.

[raptor347]

Guys we are all very passionate about our hobby but we MUST keep this discussion on the surface.:hug1:


Thinking about your PM last night. Not feeling the love.

[T.S.Davis]

Great stuff Brian. Thanks for the effort man. Really. Most of what you typed confirms what I thought I knew.

Limited spec is an awesome set of classes and has been a boon to our hobby but being subject to the supply chain has been challenging. From manufacturing hiccups to manufacturer discontinuing entire motor lines. It's been endless. Guys have left FE over those cheap motors. But this was true of 700 motors too though. There was always controversy. I still would encourage clubs to run as close to the original spec as possible just for parity and participation. They're still the most contested classes at most major events.

[T.S.Davis]

-Make sure racers running standard cells aren't unsafely overcharging their cells to try to compete.

Did this at the last cup. The highest voltage I found was a cheap O' Zippy pack. 4.21v. I was cruising the pits with the meter all weekend.

I can't remember for sure but I don't think anyone applied for a record last cup.

[Darin Jordan]

Should have ditched the nominal wording then.


Some of us TRIED!! Fears (that some might regard as irrational.. ;) ) of future battery technologies caused the majority to feel those needed to be there.

How ironic...

[Darin Jordan]

Would it be valid to say that P-LTD could be run at the Nationals, but wouldn't be eligible for records or even official "National Championships"??

The class DOES bring a lot of blood to the events.

That being said, one of my previous rule thoughts on P-LTD motors would eliminate this problem, but would require people to get out of the RTR motor mentality, and adopt more of a "standardized motor parameter" through process. I suppose a list could still be provided. Much like ROAR.

Thoughts for another thread.

Sorry, not trying to "dominate the discussion". Just working a support session here today at work that doesn't need much support. ;)

[T.S.Davis]

Would it be valid to say that P-LTD could be run at the Nationals, but wouldn't be eligible for records or even official "National Championships"??

Some complained that the mere participation numbers made an FE nats not a nats at all so I guess in keeping with tradition we call them interstellar championships.

I don't want to lose it either. It's our top seller so to speak.

The battery thing is going to require a crystal ball I think.

[raptor347]

I'm not saying stop running it. P-ltd is a great class. It's helped the hobby. It should still run at big races and as an exhibition class at nationals. Because of the tech issues, it shouldn't be an official/set in stone class or qualify for records.

Let's face it, stock/spec classes have a finite life span. When supplies of the critical component dry up, you find the next stock/spec class to fill the void.

[raptor347]

The battery thing is going to require a crystal ball I think.

That particular cat is going to get continuously harder to herd.

[Doug Smock]

Brian, we're good, just saw a little red my friend.:Peace_Sign:

Good work, and thank you for your time, effort! :thumbup1:

Guys FWIW I would stick with 4.23v/cell max. at races where HV packs are allowed. If not there will be guys kicking and screaming, and rightly so. We know there are gains to be had at the higher voltage, we don't need to prove that at a race such as The Michigan Cup.
Testing at the higher voltage can be done at the local level at fun runs. When the time comes to pull the trigger on the HV cells we'll have plenty of experience to draw from.

Again just my.02 FWIW

[raptor347]

Guys FWIW I would stick with 4.23v/cell max. at races where HV packs are allowed. If not there will be guys kicking and screaming, and rightly so. We know there are gains to be had at the higher voltage, we don't need to prove that at a race such as The Michigan Cup.
Testing at the higher voltage can be done at the local level at fun runs. When the time comes to pull the trigger on the HV cells we'll have plenty of experience to draw from.

All good.

I agree on the voltage for MI, but that's in Terry's court. :biggrin:

[T.S.Davis]

We'll stay with the max charge in the book but we're not getting hung up on the nominal thing. I want to allow them but not by letting them spank all the 4.2v guys.

[Darin Jordan]

All good.

I agree on the voltage for MI, but that's in Terry's court. :biggrin:

Inexpensive and SO Quick and Easy to use... :)

142043


Have several on hand with universal balance boards on them... Have several people appointed to do checks. Maybe have some kind of tech sticker or card that signifies tech as been done.

Voltage Problem solved.

I'd only do this at MAJOR events, however, where the stakes actually count for something (well, do they ever REALLY count for something, in the big picture?? :) )

[Doug Smock]

We'll stay with the max charge in the book but we're not getting hung up on the nominal thing. I want to allow them but not by letting them spank all the 4.2v guys.

Good stuff.
We are looking forward to seeing you guys in Atl. Hope I can count on you to check my voltage occasionally. I feel like we bonded somehow at The Cup while your hands were all up in my junk.:tongue:

[B Neal]

Good stuff.
I feel like we bonded somehow at The Cup while your hands were all up in my junk.:tongue:

That right there would definitely fall under the safety regulations and be a violation.

Brian

[Doug Smock]

Inexpensive and SO Quick and Easy to use... :)

142043


Have several on hand with universal balance boards on them... Have several people appointed to do checks. Maybe have some kind of tech sticker or card that signifies tech as been done.

Voltage Problem solved.

I'd only do this at MAJOR events, however, where the stakes actually count for something (well, do they ever REALLY count for something, in the big picture?? :) )

Yep that's a great tool!
I just picked up the latest unit. It does HV and has some additional features.
http://www.hyperion-world.com/p1774229-hp-eos08sent3

[Darin Jordan]

That right there would definitely fall under the safety regulations and be a violation.

Brian

Yes... Ditto that! OOOHHHHH.... Get a room! ;)

[Doug Smock]

Mr. Neal and Jordan, you guys are sick! :laugh:

[Brushless55]

Yep that's a great tool!
I just picked up the latest unit. It does HV and has some additional features.
http://www.hyperion-world.com/p1774229-hp-eos08sent3

like the balance storage feature !
just placed an order for one :rockon2:

[MarkF]

This is a good topic and I would like to add my .02 I would like to say I am for no MAH rules or at least raise them to 12000 for all classes. I was looking at the HK heavy duty packs AKA Graphene and it occurs to me these are the best packs on the market right now and here is why. They have tested better than any other brand and they are heavier than any 5000 battery on the market. Lets look at sizes and weights for a minute.
Brand Weight
HK Heavy Duty 6s 5000 886g
Dinogy 6s 5000 790g
Revo 6s 5500 855g
revo 6s 5000 740g
The HK battery is almost 100g heavier than the dinogy and 146g than the revo 5000 and 31g heavier than the revo 5500. I think this gives the HK battery a clear advantage over any 5000 battery on the market. Instead of adding more mah they added more weight (separator layers) to get the power level up. This battery weighs more than the 5500s and almost as much as a 6000. I will also bet you there is more MAH in there than the label would suggest. I don't see how you can say this battery is legal and not the others with more mah. This battery has a clear advantage and anybody not going this route would be unwise. IMPBA has been running with no MAH limits and this has proved to not be a problem. If you put limits on MAH then this becomes a one battery market for boat racers wishing to comply with the rules. The rest of the vendors might as well not even bother trying to market to boat racers.

Mark

[rayzerdesigns]

On the car side we always weigh all the batteries when they come in.. The heavier ones are always better

[rayzerdesigns]

Still goes back to weight.. I have a bunch of 2 s Lipos all the same..same mfgr same mah same c rating all from same batch.. The heavier ones will always have more capacity and 99% of time lower ir.. 2s 5000 some will charge as high as 6300 some max out around 5200 a couple grams weight difference will make a big difference

[rayzerdesigns]

And also on the 4.23 cell per cell.. Is that off the charger or before boat is taped up?? If anyone knows the second u take it off charger at 4.23 it will be lower than that.. Not even connected to speedo.. Within a minute or two they will be around 4.20

[NativePaul]

There will always be a single (or a few with rebranding) optimum battery pack for any type of electric racing that has an advantage over the others, the others will either improve to compete or get pushed out of the market, it is the way it has always been since I started racing with Sanyo 1200mAh NiCads, and unless electronic power limiters are mandated it is the way it always will be. Changing to 12Ah or unlimited capacity may change what that optimum battery is right now, but won't change the fact that one is still better than the rest, and it will still be a tenuous situation for a battery vendor linked to a single manufacturer.