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View Full Version : P-Limited: WHAT is the INTENT?



Darin Jordan
08-28-2015, 12:02 PM
It sounds like we need to better define the INTENT of the P-Limited class.

People's thoughts seem to get lost in long conversations. Perhaps each of us can provide a bullet list of the things that they expect P-LTD to provide; A Class Philosophy or Statement of Intent.

According to the current rules, the power systems are all based on past and current RTR offerings from only TWO manufacturers; Horizon Hobby and Tower Hobbies (Pro Boat and AquaCraft).

The rules and limitations are also written from an "RTR" standpoint, but there IS a mention of additionally allowed motors.

No mission/Intent statement was ever included in the rules (hindsight is 20/20), so perhaps we should try to define that now for future use?

For reference, here are the fundamental part of the existing rules that may or may not influence your thoughts:


d. P-Limited Approved Motors

i) The motors shall be used as shipped from the manufacturer, with the
exception of creating a drive shaft flat spot, adding water cooling, and
allowing the motor to be connected to the ESC by any means.



ii) Currently approved motors

136189


iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:


(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.

(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.

(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event



To make it easier to decipher, rule iii.b, it can be read to be this:


The CD has the discretion to allow the following:


1) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.

2) Any generational change of an approved motor.

3) Any motor that is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering. (as long as there is no more than a 5% increase in any of the following manufacturers specifications as compared to any single approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating, mass, and MSRP.)

4) Any additional motor allowances, as long as they are listed on the Race Flyer.

SO, anyone care to share a concise, bulleted list, or perhaps a sentence or two "Statement of Intent" on what they think "P-LIMITED" means as a race class??

longballlumber
08-28-2015, 02:59 PM
Since I’ve put my foot in the door, I should probably continue to participate. Below is what I would call the P-Limited Mission Statement:

P-Limited’s mission statement is to provide a cost effective class of racing for all skill levels by controlling the level of performance using a limited motor selection guideline. Our goal is to encourage equal performance among all like hull types that fit within the “P” sized classes fostering and encouraging boat tuning and driving ability.

In my eyes this translates to two equally important requirements of the class:
1. Equality of performance
2. Cost Control

If our established rules for the class don’t support both of those requirements with a resounding “YES” we will need to take a serious looks at what compromises need to be made to get as close to “YES” as possible.

Fluid
08-28-2015, 06:46 PM
From the 2006 NAMBA LSH rules:

"Experienced racers are strongly encouraged to consider the skill level of the opponents when running in this class, since the intent is to encourage less skilled racers to have success."

Otherwise we just have a P-Lite class with the same guys winning. Is that what we really need?



.

ray schrauwen
08-28-2015, 07:04 PM
I like it Mike. I could not say or type it any better.

.... At this year's MI Cup I think LSH was won with a UL-1 driven by a new racer. He was consistent.

ron1950
08-28-2015, 08:05 PM
I think Jay hit it right on the head....the same exp drivers run all the limited classes doesent make it much fun on newbies

trigger
08-28-2015, 08:19 PM
Not so much of a definition, but food for thought.

P-Limited will ultimately be People buying boats available off the shelf, it is basically how the vast majority of people get into the hobby. To me P-limited will evolve as time and markets change, to that end P-limited will need to become fluid and move with the times. Our club classes have seen this, UL-1's were popular, now not so much, same with SV27's, but Lucas oils, Motely crews, spartans, Black jacks, MG29's and so on are strong for now.....as new waves of RTR hit the shelves people will buy them and show up wanting in on the racing action and that is where we need to encourage and be ready. Local clubs can help more easily yes, but it would be nice to see the hobby evolve and grow too.

An example - not suggesting solutions....What that might mean is limiting power to 4s for a new novice with a new market boat, for example the BJ29 V3 or the new Voracity, or it might even mean a complete new class based around RTR offerings "P-limited 2" so to speak, leave P-limited alone (except we will need to buy a replacement motor legally one day....) and add to suit the trend of RTR's, no motor or ESC changes allowed??

The market is evolving, which I find exciting, I think we need to think creatively to ensure we get the people buying these new offerings with a place and class to start running them, without having to mod them to fit in. If the rules are over complicated, no one will ever want to join up and race because it's too complex to figure out, we need to get them hooked. If we build it they will come or at least I think so.

Doug Smock
08-29-2015, 08:05 AM
.... At this year's MI Cup I think LSH was won with a UL-1 driven by a new racer. He was consistent.
It was some yahoo with a MLB310.:wink:

ray schrauwen
08-29-2015, 08:59 AM
Oops..... Lol... My bad...

Darin Jordan
08-29-2015, 10:09 AM
I think Jay hit it right on the head....the same exp drivers run all the limited classes doesent make it much fun on newbies

But... LSH and LSO were only two classes. P-Limited is a complete power specification. Are you guys really saying that the intent of P-Limited is to provide EVERY hull type to "newbies" to cut their teeth on?

Another question: WHY would ONLY "newbies" be interested in parity, reduced costs, and more balanced competition?

Call it "P-Lite" if you want, but the concept IS what has kept our club, many other clubs, and, frankly, the NAMBA Nationals going for several years.

Why are we trying to define National level rules that cover so many different rounds at an event for only new racers?

Darin Jordan
08-29-2015, 10:21 AM
I'm typing this on an iPad and had trouble quoting Trigger above, but on the subject of RTR.

P-Limited WAS based on the two most popular RTR power systems AT THE TIME. The RTR a offerings at that time fit by default, and some wanted the class limited to those hulls as well,

As the rules show, the concept of OPEN hulls, restricted to using existing RTR power systems is what was implemented.

At this point, I would actually propose that we would simply need "RTR MONO", and/or "RTR CAT" as two, simple, RTR only classes that are "box stock RTR" classes. Maybe limit them to 4S and 6S boats, off the shelf, props are open, or props are stock(yawn). Either way, now you have that "Beginner" class, and you've only added two classes to the race day.

trigger
08-29-2015, 05:17 PM
Darin,

I get what your saying and I like the idea of open prop too to any potential class additions.

Perhaps we are over thinking the idea of the additional motors. Even if we add only Leopards and TP's at least those will be around for a while and we know they are about in line.

Appreciate your efforts on forum.

egneg
08-30-2015, 09:13 AM
In D-12 we are also limited to RTR ESC's. I would like to see any 60 amp esc as I could get 2 maybe 3 of brand x at the same price.

Darin Jordan
08-30-2015, 11:08 AM
In D-12 we are also limited to RTR ESC's. I would like to see any 60 amp esc as I could get 2 maybe 3 of brand x at the same price.

The new Pro Boat RTR a ESCs are 120A programable units, very similar to the Hobbywings.

Chilli
09-01-2015, 09:36 AM
In D-12 we are also limited to RTR ESC's. I would like to see any 60 amp esc as I could get 2 maybe 3 of brand x at the same price.

Chuck, Make sure you tell Dick and we'll bring it up at the next district meeting. P-Limited seems to be loosing popularity in the district and I don't know what the future holds, so I've been staying out of the P-Limited threads.

Missed you at Smithfield this past weekend. Everyone had a great time.

T.S.Davis
09-01-2015, 10:19 AM
If P limited becomes "vets need not apply" then at what point are you no longer allowed to run it?

We have one particular guy that had never raced boats show up with RTR boats. He had raced every other thing with a radio but not boats. He's a good driver and wins by driving well and finishing every time. He's got the boats running pretty well now too. Even won a class at the nats. Do I tell him he has to quit racing?........or find a better job? Not every experienced guy can afford 175 amp P+ beasts.

Being an experienced racer doesn't mean you win as a result either.

Our club will shrivel and die if the vets can't run limited.

Darin Jordan
09-01-2015, 10:24 AM
If P limited becomes "vets need not apply" then at what point are you no longer allowed to run it?

We have one particular guy that had never raced boats show up with RTR boats. He had raced every other thing with a radio but not boats. He's a good driver and wins by driving well and finishing every time. He's got the boats running pretty well now too. Even won a class at the nats. Do I tell him he has to quit racing?........or find a better job? Not every experienced guy can afford 175 amp P+ beasts.

Being an experienced racer doesn't mean you win as a result either.

Our club will shrivel and die if the vets can't run limited.

My thoughts exactly, Terry (well... maybe not EXACTLY, but I agree... ;) )... As I stated above: WHY would ONLY "newbies" be interested in parity, reduced costs, and more balanced competition?

Every club should consider it their responsibility to include a class for "newbies"... "Kids are Boaters Too", "Run-What-You-Brung", "RTR"... whatever... THAT is what brings racers along.

T.S.Davis
09-01-2015, 10:34 AM
THAT is what brings racers along.

It's not just that. You have to spend time with them.

I recently had a guy ask me if I would modify the bottom of his Geico to match mine over the winter. I told him "nope"........"But if you come over to the house this winter we'll do it together."

Limiting the esc to the 60 amp stockers is like when you go to the store to buy trash bags. "I saved $.07 per bag on these off brand bags, sweet!" Then I go to carry the garbage out and it pukes all over my shoes. If I had just bought the Hefty bags in the first place.......

I Turnigy 120 is like $60. An Aquacraft from Tower is $89.98. The Turnigy will out live the boat.

ray schrauwen
09-01-2015, 03:30 PM
I would say a tad nicer 4 sure!


The new Pro Boat RTR a ESCs are 120A programable units, very similar to the Hobbywings.

obrien
09-13-2015, 05:59 PM
It's not just that. You have to spend time with them.

I recently had a guy ask me if I would modify the bottom of his Geico to match mine over the winter. I told him "nope"........"But if you come over to the house this winter we'll do it together."

Limiting the esc to the 60 amp stockers is like when you go to the store to buy trash bags. "I saved $.07 per bag on these off brand bags, sweet!" Then I go to carry the garbage out and it pukes all over my shoes. If I had just bought the Hefty bags in the first place.......

I Turnigy 120 is like $60. An Aquacraft from Tower is $89.98. The Turnigy will out live the boat.

This was my argument over the last few years with the impba guys in ga and sc. They have their heads so far up their butts (since the PC police are getting butt hurt) on having to run stock escs it's rediculous. I have wanted to go race in their series for a while but I along with several others won't because of this rule. I was able to buy the much better and cheaper turnigy 120 and have it last

I for one enjoy the p-limited racing because it is cheaper and competitive.

obrien
09-13-2015, 06:19 PM
I see my comment was taken personal since Doug and I have had this conversation on more than one occasion

Doug Smock
09-13-2015, 06:37 PM
I see my comment was taken personal since Doug and I have had this conversation on more than one occasion

No sir. You have to follow the same rules as everyone else here too.:doh: :wink:

JimClark
09-13-2015, 06:50 PM
you are lucky it was Doug who spotted it. If it was me i would have deleted the whole post not just edited the word out..



I see my comment was taken personal since Doug and I have had this conversation on more than one occasion

longballlumber
09-13-2015, 07:27 PM
This was my argument over the last few years with the impba guys in ga and sc. They have their heads so far up their butts (since the PC police are getting butt hurt) on having to run stock escs it's rediculous. I have wanted to go race in their series for a while but I along with several others won't because of this rule. I was able to buy the much better and cheaper turnigy 120 and have it last

I for one enjoy the p-limited racing because it is cheaper and competitive.

If that is TRULY the only reason your not racing with those guys, I will send you a controller that will fit their rules. YOU are missing out on a bunch of fun and (from my experience) a bunch of great dudes!

Are you currently burning up AQ controllers?

obrien
09-13-2015, 07:37 PM
As a group the guys I used to race with went through the aq controllers left and right. And that was with stock props not over propping like some people like to think. So rather than continuing to waste money on those most of us went to cheaper more reliable controllers. Besides the point of p-spec racing was to save money. Right?

I am sure most of the guys up there are a great bunch. I know some of them personally from the tunnel boat racing I have done with them and they have always been good guys and fun to race with

Doug Smock
09-14-2015, 12:58 PM
I'll tell you what Mr. Westbrook.
Please let me know how many P Limited boats you'd like to enter in our Nov. Grand Prix race in Sycamore, and I'll round the controls up for you. There will be plenty of time Sat am. to get them in your boats.:thumbup1:

Email smockrc@bellsouth.net

I will be holding the District meeting at this race. I'll afford you the opportunity to explain to the D13 FE racers that you insulted above how they have it all wrong, and how they are missing out by not having a guy with your demeanor attend their races.:wink:

Now make sure you have your i's dotted, and t's crossed as they are running the same motors and ESCs that they started with six +years ago. The old tired :blah: above won't take you very far with this group.

Yes the D13 folks are great people. You'd be hard pressed to find a better boat racing family.

The race is up on Rcracingevents.com . Thanks and I'm looking forward to meeting you.

Sorry for the derailment NAMBA members!

:focus:

D.:tiphat:

T.S.Davis
09-14-2015, 04:28 PM
I will be holding the District meeting at this race. I'll afford you the opportunity to explain to the D13 FE racers that you insulted above how they have it all wrong.

OH!OH! Pick me mista cotter! Wait, where's it at? Never mind. Yer on yer own Doug. You've heard every argument I've got on the speedo thing. Pick any one of em and call it your own. It would actually be easier of there was a distinct advantage that we've seen on race days by running aftermarket esc but it just hasn't proven itself. Not sure what the "gotta be stock" gang is going to do now that a Proboat Blackjack comes with an 85amp speedo and the Impulse has even more.

Something that was mentioned to me at the pond "I don't understand what we're trying to fix".

It stuck with me. I'd have to say "nothing"..........yet. Unfortunately, some of us fear (maybe unjustified who knows really) that we've painted ourselves into a corner. We're down to a very short selection of motors. If any more vanish.......hosed.

When the AQ motors became the LSH motor choice instead of what was legal (700 motors) we suddenly were running classes that didn't exist. We were into uncharted territory. Major races had to tell everyone what the classes were because they weren't on paper. If we wait until we're hosed again to "fix" what's broken we fear it will be too late.

The point of all the hand wringing and ciphering is to put on the life vest before we fall in instead of trying to snap that sucker on once we're in the drink.

So did we ever really come to a conclusion on what the intent is?

Feels like it's:
Parity (ish)
Less cost (ish)
Manageable speeds but not so slow as to be a snore

hahaha The peoples classes more or less.

Is that kinda it?

Darin Jordan
09-14-2015, 04:39 PM
Something that was mentioned to me at the pond "I don't understand what we're trying to fix".


Not trying to "fix"... Trying to SUSTAIN. We like what we have, performance wise, and it should be preserved.

And yes, starting the process now because motors ARE going away.

trigger
09-14-2015, 07:55 PM
whats that old saying.....you can't please all the people all of the time, only some of the people some of the time..........

This feels like that, change is going to have to come sooner or later. Some people will be upset, some happy. Personally I'm a bit of both.

I see the whole limited section changing in the long haul as RTR's change and progress, P-limited will have to follow suit. Its the way of the world, one thing drops off and another takes its place.

RaceMechaniX
09-14-2015, 08:13 PM
I have the solution:

4S
any number of parallel packs
Any capacity
Any motor
Any controller
Any prop

You just have to run one 60A (+/-) Maxi fuse. You blew it, it's a couple bucks to replace.
136974

You think someone is cheating, make him/her swap fuses with you or hand them out at a race.
You think 60A is too much, bump it down to 50A. Think it is not enough bump it to 80A.

They will fit in any boat and are easy to tech.
Sorry could not resist. I will get off the keyboard now and go back to building boats.

obrien
09-14-2015, 09:08 PM
I'll be on my way to key west that weekend for the offshore races. The same old excuses go both ways. We will never see eye to eye on this issue. As far as insulting anyone I know better than to think it's the majority of the group. It's a select few that decided on the rule when the class was developing and the rest just went along with it. The guys I have meet don't care either way about the rule

Fluid
09-14-2015, 09:15 PM
I've been involved in numerous rule committees over the past twenty years, and no one EVER sees "eye to eye". That isn't the point. The point is to define rules that all will follow. They are never perfect, too many egos get involved for that. Hopefully the result is something the hobby can live with. Guess what? Somehow it always does, no matter how much hand wringing goes on publicly and privately. Ya gotta be there to understand.


.

T.S.Davis
09-15-2015, 09:52 AM
Ya gotta be there to understand.

hahaha Jay knows. Forming rules is such fun.:sarcasm1: Blurpppp, threw up in my mouth a little bit.

You have to be prepared for someone to say that your opinion is based on "x,y,z" when the truth is that you never even thought of x,y,z. It will come from someone that didn't get his way. Usually it's one of two accusations. Either you stand to gain financially or you are trying to protect someone that you are fond of (a racer, a brand, a vendor, a record, the color blue). You will be shocked that someone could think that of you. It will BS but your getting it no matter how much compromise is built into what ever rule set.

Rule sets will always be a compromise. They will not be perfect. Ever. For best results, run them by enough brainiacs to find the holes, patch em, and get some butts on the drivers stand. Egos aside I think that's what most want. Heats. RC fools hanging out, turning laps, and having fun doing it.

Doug Smock
09-15-2015, 09:15 PM
Terry, It's much larger if you click it. 137030Not sweating you one bit sir.:tongue:




I'll be on my way to key west that weekend for the offshore races. The same old excuses go both ways. We will never see eye to eye on this issue. As far as insulting anyone I know better than to think it's the majority of the group. It's a select few that decided on the rule when the class was developing and the rest just went along with it. The guys I have meet don't care either way about the rule

smh Jeff. Here ya go man, and my last correspondence with you on this thread.

"You know better than to think"? Really? I have been D13 Director for four years now. Two years prior to that I was the FE Director.
NOBODY is more in touch with the FE racers here than me. The D13 racers (not just "The guys I have met") have been asked EVERY YEAR at the District meeting if they want to make changes in the GP series. The answer has always been the same "Why"?, What we're doing is working." It is hard to argue with them.:biggrin:



FWIW I expect to see a change in the ESC language for 2016 in D13. However, I imagine there may still be a limit. We'll see in Nov.


This was my argument over the last few years with the impba guys in ga and sc. I have wanted to go race in their series for a while but I along with several others won't because of this rule.

I understand you not being able to accept my invitation to Sycamore in Nov.

Let me go a step further so I can say I did everything I could to get you and several others to a D13 pond.:wink:

Send me something to work with, word doc. email, whatever! Remember, dot i's, cross t's. Please include email addresses or contact information for all of the others. Or, see that they have mine. I'll see that it all gets to our FE director prior to the meeting. Don't know what else I can do for ya.
I'll post any changes when I post the schedule in mid Nov.

smockrc@bellsouth.net


Moderator hat on:

:focus:Please, no more about the IMPBA on this thread fellas!.:focus:


Thanks in advance.:tiphat:


I've been involved in numerous rule committees over the past twenty years, and no one EVER sees "eye to eye". That isn't the point. The point is to define rules that all will follow.


.
^^^^^^^^^^^^Qualifies for quote of the week^^^^^^^^^^^^^

obrien
09-16-2015, 09:11 PM
Doug I just sent you a pm. I also want to apologize to the rest of the members in here. There really is no reason for me to argue about this esc rule anymore. I always wanted to be one of the guys that went to the races and had fun, and never wanted to be one of the guys arguing over a hobby. Since I have clearly have not done that, I just wanted to apologize to everyone for what I said