FDM 32 V-Hull Build - Need Build Advice

[Tamelesstgr]

Gents,

Starting a new log on what I hope to be a really fun and educational build. I feel really lucky to have purchased this Fine Design 32 hull. It really fits the overall size I was looking for, and somewhat different from the norm in today's modern FE boat designs. I've only seen 1 movie on YouTube and a handful of boat pictures on this hull, if you have any info about this boat I'd really like to know more about it. Power will be provided by ProBoat 1500KV and a ProBoat 60amp ESC on 4s for now. This set up includes Octura running hardware and a piano wire drive.

Initially I would like some advice on fabricating some replacement rails, servo platform, and motor mount. I've considered moving the motor closer to the transom and secure the batteries forward of the motor. Initially the Aluminum motor mount is too large for the bolt spacing on this brushless motor. What are my options for fabricating the rails and motor plate? I'd basically just like a cleaner look for the interior, and the support of the stuffing tube needs to be addressed.

This isn't going to be a speed rig (needs to be "competitive" with an SV27 running 12 cells nimh and BJ29 V3 running 4s) but it would be nice to plan for a future motor/esc upgrade. Budget is $200 and I still need Tx/Rx and misc parts to finish the boat.

As she sits today:

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[Tamelesstgr]

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[lt130th]

http://www.KintecRacing.com also has a rail for $23 that could make things a little easier. Gives you the option to upgrade to 40mm motor in the future & addresses your stuffing tube support.

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It comes in pieces, so if the servo tray prevents you from moving the motor closer to the transom, as you describe, you can always cut the rails & find another mounting solution for the servo.

[properchopper]

I got your PM. Seems like it130th has a really good suggestion - I'd go with it. As far as strengthening the ABS hull, an inlay might be a reasonable consideration. I've never inlaid an ABS hull, maybe Randy at BBY can help with tips.

[Tamelesstgr]

Came to the realization that I need to run an offset rudder if I want to run larger props on this set up. This one snowballed on my quickly lol.

[Tamelesstgr]

After much careful removal and sanding I have a clean sheet to start with. Materials coming today so I can start laying out the rails and motor mount. I'd like to be able to move the motor closer to the transom and run a single 4s pack in the middle of the hull to keep all the weight near the bottom of the boat. If not I will have to stick to 2 - 2s packs mounted on each side. Also decided to give the wire drive a try and get this thing on the water. If it doesn't prove to be what I want then I can start planning for more power and hardware changes over the off season.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Started mocking up placement of the motor and ESC, I plan on trimming the stuffing tube a little bit, but ultimately I can not place the motor as far back as I would like. The alignment is too low, so I need to keep the motor in roughly the same location and run 2 lipo packs along side. I will have enough room to slide them forward or aft to adjust COG though, so I am happy about that. I am thinking about building a shelf above the motor to affix the ESC to yet remove it if needed.

Also need to figure out how I want to run the cooling lines inside the hull and still have a clean look.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Ok guys, in getting my strut / rudder assembly set up I noticed a few things. With the stock drilled holes I was only able to fit about a 41mm prop before the blades would be hitting the aluminum strut. I can move the strut up on the hull and have ample room to run larger props. The next issue I need to solve is the strut angle. It tends to want to settle at a negative angle (and would be pushing the bow down) I can get the angle to neutral (which I would prefer) but then when I install the wire drive, I can feel a noticeable difference in the smoothness when rotating the wire drive assembly. Obviously I want a smooth operating shaft, so do I give up the strut adjustability and run it at the negative angle? Could I compensate with battery location based on the hull behavior once I get it on the water?

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[Tamelesstgr]

Slowly getting things worked out. Made decisions on my water pickups, re-drilled the strut bracket, drilled locations for mock exhaust tips. Love the OSE dual discharge, pricey, but very nice!

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[Tamelesstgr]

Also made some changes where the servo arms pass through the transom. I didn't like how they were very small and binding when actuating the servo lock to lock. I took some Aluminim tubing and cut an end of a battery terminal cover to make a flexible pushrod seal. Works pretty smooth with some marine grease on the pushrod. A lot more room for the pushrod to actuate as well.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Motor placement, I trimmed about an inch off the wire drive because it had a flat spot on it. Trimmed the stuffing tube as well, it will be supported by a fiberglass crossbrace once I fabricate my rails.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Little progress on the motor rails this week, need to make a servo tray and esc tray and I think I can get to epoxy

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[lt130th]

Hey, looks like good progress. One thing you may want to consider is rotating the water jacket so the rear outlet is on the very top. This is to allow air bubbles to escape, rather than building up inside the jacket and creating an air cavity where no water can circulate around the top of the can & transfer the heat away.

[Tamelesstgr]

Hmm, that's interesting, so potentially the water enters the bottom of the jacket currently and could potentially just be rushing past the bottom of the motor and exiting? I see how placing the rear exit would force the water to fill the jacket.

[lt130th]

The cavity within the water jacket is under pressure. Draw a 2D cavity of any arbitrary shape on a piece of paper, and draw a vector in the plane of the paper to represent gravity. Within that chamber you have two fluids - one much less dense than the other. The less-dense fluid in the chamber will always seek to rest in the opposite direction of the gravity vector you drew. Now add a single inlet and a single outlet and consider the walls of the 2D cavity the boundary of your control volume...no matter what the mass flow-rate of fluid is into and out of that chamber through those two ports, the less-dense fluid will remain at the top unless you put the outlet near the top for it to escape. And if you continue adding the less-dense fluid with the mass flowing into the chamber, it will displace the "heavier" mass/fluid to the level where you placed the outlet. So if you want your motor can completely surrounded by water (which you do to transfer the heat energy out of the system) you have to place the water outlet at the highest point. Otherwise, any air in the lines between the water jacket and rudder will all go into your water jacket when the boat begins to accelerate. And any air that enters your rudder pickup during your run will collect within your water jacket until it reaches the level/height of the outlet...if you're viewing the water jacket from a 2D side-profile. Now if your water jacket outlet is on the port side of the motor, and you do a lot of right-hand turning, that might help let the air out, haha.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Switching things up a little bit on this build. Going to be moving to a Leopard 4082 with 1450kv and the thought process is that I can run 4s, 5s, or 6s in this hull based on the water coditions. So I will be upgrading the flexshaft and stuffing tube to support .187 flex cable, just need to decide if I want to run a telfon liner or not. Might not see water for quite some time, but in the long run I think it will be what I want.

[lt130th]

As long as you have an ESC to handle the Amp's, (and the hull can stay on the surface) you should be able to get into the 70mph range with that motor, on 6s. That's going to make things a bit heavier so make sure your internals are really, anchored & supported well, so nothing comes loose in a flip at those speeds. You'll definitely like it.

[lt130th]

What are your plans for paint on this one? I like how your Shockwave paint turned out.

[Tamelesstgr]

I plan on using a Seaking 180 amp ESC. Now that I know what motor I will be using I can get to work on the rail layout. I want this thing to be really strong, so once I have the mounting points where I want them I plan on drilling a series of holes in the bottom of the fiberglass rails for when epoxying to the hull. I want to add an aluminum stuffing tube support as well, then I need to figure out the servo tray. Only thing that I know us going to be a pain is prop changes and flex cable maintenance since the rudder is inline.

Paint is still up in the air a little bit. I want more of a classic cigarette look, so simple lines and colors, I have a few ideas. I have a dashboard decal picked out, I'd like to do some scale looking drivers too for the cockpit.

[Tamelesstgr]

Time for an update. I really had hoped to make this a go for this summer, but I decided to build it for what I want, not throw it together just to break stuff and tear it apart again. Finally made some progress on my motor rails. I had to cut down the sides to have room to run my cooling lines. Originally I had wanted to mount the ESC above the motor.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Decided to go .187 flex with .250 stuffing tube, and I wanted a flood tube as well for adustability so I dove in. Once I get around to setting the rails in epoxy I can determine how to bend the stuffing tube. I also need to fabricate a crossbrace to hold the tube in place.

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[Tamelesstgr]

For a Flood tube I wandered around Home Depot and settled on 1/2" ID PEX tubing and I drilled an end cap to support the stuffing tube. Once I epoxy everything I think it will be good with the crossbrace mounted between the rails.

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[lt130th]

Silicone the stuffing tube at the chamber endcap. Then you'll have enough play for strut adjustments, & won't need a cross-brace. That's essentially how a Pro Boat Impulse 31 is setup...

[Tamelesstgr]

I was going to epoxy that plug into the PEX and then epoxy the stuffing tube in place as well.

[lt130th]

Here's how the Impulse 31's flood chamber & stuffing tube looks...

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[Tamelesstgr]

Sweet, looks like I am headed in the right direction.

[Tamelesstgr]

Some progress on the business end, ProBoat Gieco Inline rudder setup leading in to the flood tube:

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[Tamelesstgr]

Some updates, at times I wish I just bought a ARR or RTR, but I'm sticking with it. Had to shorten my flood tube and reduce the angle because it was causing binding of the flex shaft. The upgraded .187 shaft has a much longer shaft where the prop and drive dog attach. Need to keep the stuffing tube straight entering the hull until the actual flex wires can start to bend in the stuffing tube. Lots of trial and error, but here are the rails and servo mount I made by hand:

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[Tamelesstgr]

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[Tamelesstgr]

Got the Flex cut last night and soldered the tip with my home made crucible.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Looking to get some holes filled that I will not be using. Should get the flood tube set this week as well. Servos I got from the Swap and Shop are a little taller than the stocker I mocked everything up with. I'll have to make another set of servo uprights, but that's ok.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Got the holes filled and the flood tube epoxied in place, up next is setting the motor mount rails in place.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Finally took the plunge and epoxied the motor rails into the hull, feels really solid

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[Tamelesstgr]

Taking the paint off this hull is :frusty:
Wet sanding is taking forever, my fingers might be nubs soon
I've tried oven cleaner, it helps only a little, paint is very thick

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[Tamelesstgr]

Slow Progress, decided to spend some time on the modified hatch covers. Glued these up and cut an opening the same size on the bottom side of the hatch. Epoxied them to the hatch, and I will probably coat the entire underside of the balsa to make sure it's water tight. I will also lay some light fiberglass cloth on the vertical part of the engine cover and overlap the ABS hatch just to make sure there is no chance for separation during a flip or flexing of the hatch. Pretty happy with how they are turning out.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Like the look over the previous engine covers

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[T.S.Davis]

If you check with Fine he may have the scale looking drivers for that kicking around.

[Tamelesstgr]

I've got them, debating whether or not I should try and find a little more scale looking drivers, probably won't have them in the cockpit for power runs.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Finally got a chance to jump back on the hatches since I will certainly need my cover if I intend to run soon. Worked out pretty well I think. Opened up the holes to match the wooden hatches and epoxied them to the ABS hatch. Then I added 2 layers of some thinner fiberglass that draped over the wood and ABS to kind of tape them in place with some lighter finishing epoxy. Now I have added 2 coats of the finish epoxy to the raw wood. This finish epoxy sands so much nicer than the thicker stuff I use for mounting motor mounts etc.

I wonder how many coats are needed before final sanding for paint? I want to do a leak test and then fill the underneath part of the wooden hatches with expanding foam or maybe stryafoam to be sure the hatch doesn't sink.

Thoughts?

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[Tamelesstgr]

Here is what I ended up with for my steering. Still trying to decide if I should add the left side steering rod, or just leave the right side alone? It's a 4-40 rod. I'll have to disconnect in order to be able to move the rudder out of the way to pull the flex after each run. Kind of a pain, but I may address the offset rudder later.

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[Tamelesstgr]

First side of parallel battery harness with spark arrestor. Soldering is not my favorite thing, need more practice, but joints were prepped with flux and are solid.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Any thoughts on what I can do to secure my 6s battery packs? I have seen folks epoxy the battery strap right to the hull. I don't think a traditional tray will fit in the space I have. I could make 2 fiberglass pieces the straps could loop around and epoxy those to the hull.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Some progress being made, epoxied in the steering linkage tubes and positioning of the dual cooling lines.

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[Tamelesstgr]

With my EagleTree eLogger I can log three separate temp probes. Unfortunately there are not any air holes in the endcaps of my Leopard 4082 that would allow access for a temperature probe. I pulled off the end bell and located a spot to drill an access hole I can get the thermistor close to the windings. I used a backer to protect the windings from the drill bit. Also made double shure no shavings are inside the motor.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Concept for Paint and Graphics

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[Tamelesstgr]

Seriously frustrated this week. The 200 amp logger isn't working, The spark arrestor I built does not arrest the spark on 6s. Thinking about selling all this MISC stuff and just getting a Zelos 36 or something. :confused2:

[Tamelesstgr]

Made some progress with a solution for securing my battery straps, and fabricated some aluminum tabs to secure my hatch. Added 2-part foam to my hatch and sanded everything in prep for paint. Finally!!

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[Tamelesstgr]

Onto the main hull color, Gloss Orange

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[Tamelesstgr]

2nd Orange coat, going to let this cure about a week.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Painted the hull bottom and hatch, starting to apply decals, getting closer :cool:


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[Beaux]

Nice looking boat, won't be long now.

[Outboard]

What type of paint did you use?

[Tamelesstgr]

Rustoleum Painters Touch, but I won't be using that anymore, I'm going to try Lacquer.

[Tamelesstgr]

Decided 2 coats of clear is sufficient for now, want to get this thing wet after over a year. Starting to put all the pieces together.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Switched the rudder mount to the Starboard side of the bracket giving me just enough room to sneak the flex cable past the rudder. When I had it setup inline I would have to disconnect the rudder blade and pushrod each time I have to grease the flex. Bent and cut a pushrod, and installed all the hardware on the transom, getting closer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3s5XLpDTyM

[Tamelesstgr]

99% buttoned up, need to cut a slot in the flex shaft to secure the drive dog, program esc, and leak test. Travelling this week for work, so a little bummed I have to wait some more to see if I am successful.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Some Before and After

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[Tamelesstgr]

Came up with an offset rudder solution this weekend, but now I can't get my Seaking 180 to respond. Have previously hooked up 3s and 6s batteries to test that the servo is working correctly and that the end points are where I want them. So I got all that settled and went to pulg my EagleTree unit in along with the 6S2P and nothing is happeneing, no beeping form the ESC, no motor movement. I had plugged a battery in earlier in the day and it was fine. The lights on the EagleTree also were on. I have since pulled all the EagleTree items out for the time being, still no response from the ESC. I reset all the stock parameters on the Traxxas TQi controller I am using, that didn't help. I am going to try the throttle range calibration tonight. I hope I don't have a dead 180. :crying: Caps all look good on the esc and on the cap bank.

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[Outboard]

Rustoleum Painters Touch, but I won't be using that anymore, I'm going to try Lacquer.

Why is that?

[Tamelesstgr]

In my experience the Enamel paints take too long to cure fully. You must recoat within 1 hour or wait till that coat is fully cured (sometimes even after 4-5 days I would get peeling / cracking when trying to recoat)

I have heard and read that Lacquer you do not have to wait for curing to take place, but I have not tried it for myself yet.

[boredom.is.me]

You can even sand lacquer after less than 2 hours provided you are in higher temps. I will never use enamel again, unless it was for a basher.

Dupli color offers a pretty decent rattle can that's available in a WIDE range of colors. Any autoparts store will carry them. I know O'Reileys would get supply from another shop if they don't have the specific color.

[Beaux]

Yes lacquer is the way to go . It is thinner but you can recoat quickly , checkout my pirate on the boat building site .

[Tamelesstgr]

Well, the T180 Version 2 that I had purchased died on the bench. Replaced it with a Turnigy 180 V3 and added a second cooling pipe as that is how the previous ESC was set up. Bench tested and programmed, things are as they should be. Few more things to tweak before I give her the maiden.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Well, Maiden run was very very short because it was getting too dark outside to be comfortable driving. BUT!! She runs, no leaks!! Brief 30 second run a few times back and forth:

6S2P - 40mm Graupner Plastic Prop
High Amps = 70.88
High Watts = 1,667
High RPM = 23,923
High Speed = 28.8
High Motor Temp = 88.4
High Esc Temp = 84.0

Tonight I hope to make a longer run, there seems to be some turning issues, whips around pretty fast, need to adjust the steering sensativity, this hull has a lot of listing from side to side when turning, not sure if it's because of the design of the deep-V?

[Tamelesstgr]

Ran the big orange mono tonight, very small conservative prop, 1.4 x 40mm Graupner plastic prop. No video, but RPM's seem down about 25-30% from what I would expect. Trying to understand if that is due maybe to the weight of the boat, or maybe she's running too wet? I've got the COG at 30% roughly. Approximately 2min run

MAX RPM = 23,148 (1450kv x 25.2 volts = 32,866)
MAX Watts = 1,671 (motor capable of 3,500)
MAX Amps = 70.60
MAX Motor Temp = 99.9 (Measured at windings)
MAX ESC Temp = 88.6 (Measured inside cooling block)
Max GPS Speed = 30.3 mph
Fully charged 6s packs came back at 24.6 volts each

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[Tamelesstgr]

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[785boats]

Something definitely doesn't look right there.
With only a small prop like that you should have been seein a lot more revs than that.
This might be a silly question, but did you set the throttle range with the TX after you programmed the ESC? The ESC might not be seeing full throttle.

[Tamelesstgr]

I'll have to look into that. I'm using a Traxxas controller (because I like the feel)
I did pull the trigger to 100% throttle before turning on the ESC and then released it

Here is a link to the controller:
https://traxxas.com/products/parts/transmitters/6509tqitraxxaslink2ch

[Tamelesstgr]

Been looking through the transmitter owners manual, I have a few things in mind:

1) It is possible that the Multi-function knob is set to alter the throttle sensativity, I can navigate through the menus and set the multi-function knob back to steering sensativity.

2) Secondly there is this 50/50 or 70/30 throttle neutral adjustment (provides more forward throttle travel at 70%, I am assuming for greater throttle control for cars and trucks) I'm going to reset the throttle calibration according to the Turnigy ESC manual and see if that helps.

3) I can hook up the boat on the bench with the eagletree datalogger and use live mode to test the RPMs. If none of that works I have a spare proboat transmitter and reciever I can swap out and see if that brings me all the RPMs I seek

[Tamelesstgr]

RPM Woes continue:

Reset all parameters on Traxxas transmitter, recalibrated throttle on ESC, no affect on RPM when monitored live on bench with EagleTree, still ~22-23k rpms max.

Swapped in ProBoat transmitter and reciever, recalibrated throttle on ESC, no affect on RPM when monitored live on bench with EagleTree, still ~22-23k rpms max.

Pulled ESC and reprogrammed to no LVC, and no auto-detect cells, set at 6s, still ~22-23k rpms max. I'm perplexed and going to bed.

[785boats]

Kenny.
Check that the LED on the ESC turns green when you apply full throttle.
If it doesn't, then the ESC is not receiving a full throttle signal from your TX.

[Tamelesstgr]

LED is red then turns green at full throttle.

[Tamelesstgr]

Update, the EagleTree was the issue, I had been using a profile for the 6-pole Aquacraft 2030kv motor, and it was skewing the RPMS readings. On the bench last night everything worked out perfectly, T180 is programmed for 6s (not auto-detect) timing set to 3.75 degrees for the D-wind motor, and LVC at lowest setting. With the new 4-pole profile on live mode the Leopard 1450kv read 33,xxx rpms unloaded, exactly where it needs to be. Big thanks to Paul for his bits of wisdom!

She's back together and ready to hit the water.

[785boats]

Good to see is was a simple programme change in the Eagle Tree.

[Tamelesstgr]

Well, better run today, albeit getting dark again so no video. Went from 40mm plastic to Octura X442.

Max Amps = 99.42
Max Watts = 2,282
Max RPMS = 34,642 (Average loaded around 29,500)
Max MPH = 35.7 (picked up 5mph)
Motor Max Temp = 109.0
ESC Max Temp = 94.5

Looks like lots of headroom left, going to try to do a backup run with the ESC and Motor. Not quite sure if I need a longer straightline run for the GPS calibration?

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[Tamelesstgr]

Ran again this weekend with the X442 and after andjusting the trim tabs and turn fins the hull is running very well.

Max Amps = 99.19
Max Watts = 2,221
Max RPMS = 33,557 (Average loaded around 30,000)
Max MPH = 44.3 (up from 35mph)
Motor Max Temp = 101.3
ESC Max Temp = 91.3

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[Tamelesstgr]

Finally a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oISD8Ttm3P4

[Tamelesstgr]

Pushed the hull past 48mph yesterday, all though I haven't changed anything, just calm water and I ran accross the entire pond, perhaps it built up more speed. Then I discovered this hull doesn't turn left very sharply and ran up on the rocks a wee bit. Scuffed the bottom and pushed the rudder and turn fin back a little bit. No damage to the prop thankfully, just my pride.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Ive been making some runs the past few weekends trying a few different size props. They are predicting 40's and flurries here for Chicago this weekend. I've had the most luck with the X442 prop I have, best MPH so far. I tried my X445 and the amp draw was lower than the X442 which I didn't expect at all, about 30% lower. I've got about 6 datalogged runs for each prop and the X445 is consistently lower despite more pitch. Then I tried my X642 this past weekend, and again the readings are lower than the X442.

X442 - Average over 6 runs
Amps = 102
Watts = 2,346
Top MPH = 48.6

X445 - Average over 6 runs
Amps = 77
Watts = 1,870
Top MPH = 45.3

X642 - One run
Amps = 65
Watts = 1,716
Top MPH = 40.4

I was really stumped by the X642, I wonder if it is too much pitch for a boat that is so heavy like mine running 6S2P? Loaded RPM's are all pretty consistent between all 3 props, about 29,000 - 30,000 rpms. Pond behind my house has been pretty calm the last few weeks

[Tamelesstgr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDd0GsMepSA

Video from today, probably the last of the boating season for me.

[fweasel]

Video from today, probably the last of the boating season for me.
Oh c'mon. If I had that pond in my backyard, I'd be out there until it froze over, running back inside in between runs to thaw out my fingers. :beerchug:

[Beaux]

Man the boat really looked strong, nice job.

[Tamelesstgr]

With every new prop I have tried it has gone slower lol. X442 is the fastest thus far. Still have some 3-blades to try. The X445 is running second place, the X642 has not performed like I thought.

[lt130th]

Finally got this one in the water! Looks great!

[Tamelesstgr]

I'm going to start modifying the strut/rudder assembly to accept more than 43mm prop. This 4082 wants a bigger prop to push :cool2:
Also need to cut a new flex I ordered from OSE, need more shaft length for the larger props.

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[Tamelesstgr]

More room for bigger blades, I just picked up an M545, and M447
Should be good to crack 50+ on this pig of a hull :olleyes:

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[Tamelesstgr]

Got some video this Sunday, topped 50mph, gotta pull my datalogs yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfdW6UeoduI

[Tamelesstgr]

When I built this boat I didn't really have a good way of securing the hatch with anything other than hockey tape. I wanted some mechanical fastening to keep the hatch from separating if there was flip or high speed tumble. So I drilled and tapped some aluminum, it's held up for maybe a year, but the threads got stripped out. I searched for some Stainless M3 fastener that I could add to the bracket. On RcGroups I learned this is a rivet nut. I resized the holes in the brackets and epoxied these in last night. Hope to see how well they set today.

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[Tamelesstgr]

Pulled my datalogs as well from the day I ran 3 sessions. kind of neat to see the consistency between runs:

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[Tamelesstgr]

Usually I graph each individual session, but I left all 3 in the chart, kind of cool to see them in succession. I'm a little suspect about the ESC graph, it looks like the third run the temps crept up a bit, but I do recall that run was maybe 30 minutes after the last run.

Graph 1 = RPM
Graph 2 = ESC Temp
Graph 3 = Amps
Graph 4 = Voltage Drop

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