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D. Newland
01-21-2015, 07:41 PM
There are 2 NAMBA FE proposals that I wrote, and that were passed by District 19, that will be in the upcoming Propwash (+/-April, 2015). I am posting this information in advance so that you may write an article for the Propwash to get your voice heard in the NAMBA publication. For or Against. If you decide to do this, please send an email to Al Waters @ namba883@cox.net ASAP and advise of your intentions. He will give you a deadline to have a finished article written.

1. Self righting boats. I have submitted a proposal to not allow self-righting boats in NAMBA competition, unless the self-righting capabilities can be eliminated or rendered useless for the event (CD approval required).

I'm fairly confident we all have our stance on this. I felt it time we actually find out what the membership wants to do, formally.

2. Voltage. I am proposing that NAMBA rulebook Section 28, page 5, D.1.a) Power Parameter chart change from Nominal to Actual voltage (4.23 volt/per cell increments), plus wording is added about pre-tech inspections @ SAW/2-Lap events. Please note that Section 28, Page 1 General Section rule that addresses which cells are official (3.7 nominal) remains unchanged with this proposal. This is not a High Voltage Lipo proposal, it is merely a proposal to help the technical inspections of cell voltage.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

Fluid
01-21-2015, 07:52 PM
Dave, I support both proposals. A note about the length of time a boat can remain "dead" before being officially called dead might be useful, but number 1 does help. A definite voltage limit is needed. Until the newer chemistry is proven the limits help to level the playing field. At the LA SAWs last November we performed pre-run voltage checks with good success. This helps to reduce the incidence of "his boat was illegal" comments.....

rayzerdesigns
01-21-2015, 10:36 PM
pre run voltage is def needed at big events..especially for record events..its simple as a voltmeter..then tape up..the newer high voltage cells as of now aren't legal in namba..they are being tested in the rc car world, I will say they are def faster..and so far seem to be holding up well, have been charging at 50 amps plus..so far so good, and governing bodies in the car side are in their testing phases

Darin Jordan
01-22-2015, 09:32 AM
Dave, I support both proposals. A note about the length of time a boat can remain "dead" before being officially called dead might be useful, but number 1 does help. A definite voltage limit is needed. Until the newer chemistry is proven the limits help to level the playing field. At the LA SAWs last November we performed pre-run voltage checks with good success. This helps to reduce the incidence of "his boat was illegal" comments.....

David, for what it's worth, I'm with Jay. I don't really have an opinion on #1. My concern there is more about the drivers of those boats getting fixated on getting their boats up and running again, and not paying attention to the boats still actively racing on the course. Been taken out too many times by that.

For #2, like Jay said, we did Voltage Checks at the SAWs and I think it worked out really well. Definitely takes that question out of play.

Thank you.

D. Newland
01-22-2015, 12:00 PM
Jay- I've had quite a bit of thought and discussion about "what constitutes a dead boat", and I just don't have a strong enough (and specific) opinion to personally propose something that I feel would be followed 100% of the time.

We have more and more Gas/Nitro guys CD'ing our races and it's typically the first question they have for the race organizers. Once we discuss a process with them, they quickly get into a groove. And, there are times when, IMO, a standing 3 count should be used (tight racing), and shouldn't be used (boat spins out and wants to wait for traffic to clear, or the last place boat subs on the last last lap and needs 4-5 seconds to get going). There are also times when a zero count should be used (mixed racing, for instance).

I personally favor CD's discretion at this point in time.

rayzerdesigns
01-22-2015, 01:11 PM
touchy subject, I think if submarined or spin out I think you should continue..but I also agree not to impede any racing..which makes it a judgement call..maybe just a common sense thing..its not often you see a gas boat spin out and continue, but it does happen..usually they stall out..so maybe in mixed competition it needs to be addressed before the race and come to agreement with those in class or the cd..just my thoughts

ray schrauwen
05-07-2015, 08:48 PM
So are Revolectrix batteries a no go or what? I only have one set for Q-sport and never can charge them past 4.20v/cell with the charger I have. Typically I don't fully charge my cells anyway so they last longer.

GixerGuy1978
05-08-2015, 03:22 PM
all lipos are approved (including the revo and similar hi-voltage cells) as long as they don't hold a voltage greater than 4.23v/cell overall pack average before a race. Some (like the 'bolts') can charge up to 4.35v/cell apparently. A charger to charge above the 4.2v/cell is required for these hi-volt cells or equivalent packs.

T.S.Davis
05-08-2015, 03:41 PM
Yep, that's exactly correct. 4.23v max charge. For now at least. I'm sure these will become the norm in no time.

Doug Smock
05-08-2015, 04:17 PM
Yep, that's exactly correct. 4.23v max charge. For now at least. I'm sure these will become the norm in no time.

I think this is still out for a membership vote isn't it? Should have the results in June?

raptor347
05-08-2015, 06:05 PM
At this point any LiPo with a 3.7V nominal voltage is legal. The HV cells I've seen still carry the 3.7V rating. If the new voltage cap rule passes, it will limit how high you'll be able to charge them.

Doug Smock
05-08-2015, 06:19 PM
At this point any LiPo with a 3.7V nominal voltage is legal. The HV cells I've seen still carry the 3.7V rating. If the new voltage cap rule passes, it will limit how high you'll be able to charge them.

:thumbup1:

keithbradley
05-08-2015, 10:45 PM
Since pre-run voltage checks seem to be emerging as favored protocol in both organizations, how does everyone feel about how this is checked?

I like the idea of voltage taps on the outside of the hull. Maybe just a small bullet connector with small gauge wires leading to the input wires of the ESC. This would allow racers to tape up when needed and voltage could still be checked after tape-up. Thoughts?

Doug Smock
05-09-2015, 12:20 AM
Hey Keith,
Pre teching was in the IMPBA rules when LiPos were voted in. You may have participated in an event where the teching took place after a run as not all of our CDs were familiar with the FE rules. That is no longer the case.

B. Battery Specifications
Batteries may be of any commercial manufacture that is available to the public. These may include: Lithium Polymer or Lithium Ion, etc. type cells. The battery/pack/cell is only recharged by the application of an electric current to the battery using a battery charger specifically designed for the type of cell being used. Any method of recharging or partially recharging a battery/pack/cell by any other means is not allowed. Liquid acid type battery, Fuel Cell or Radioactive batteries are not allowed. A voltmeter will be used to measure the total voltage applied to the input of the speed control(s), un-loaded, with a fully charged ‘pack’ will constitute technical conformance to a class voltage limit.

The inspector(s) and/or CDs have to be able to inspect the wiring before every run.

1. A ‘pack’ is defined as the cell(s) wired in series or parallel or any wiring combination that is used to provide electrical power to the speed control for the purpose of driving the electrical motor(s).
a. Only one pack maybe used even if multiple speed controls are used.
b. The pack must be made up of only one type of cell chemistry.
c. In multiple speed control/motor installations the total pack voltage must be used as the supply input to each speed control. You are not allowed to tap off voltage or switch a packs’ parallel/series configuration during operation.
2. Contestants are cautioned to keep their wiring as simple as possible to make it easy for a contest director/technical inspector to confirm class conformance. Inspectors may require that batteries and or other components be removed from the model to make a ruling.

With running orders at our RTs getting your boat inspected and taped up in front of the CD shouldn't be a problem. If you are experiencing a problem at an event send me a PM, email, or call me and I'll address it.


Sorry for the IMPBA rant on a NAMBA thread fellas. My hope is now that I'm a member of both I'll be cut a bit of slack.:wink:

rayzerdesigns
05-09-2015, 03:46 AM
Pre run voltage is what it should be..As getting voltage after a run has too many variables..As for having a tap on outside of hull..not sure many would want to do that..it's do easy to just have a table setup for pre race..check voltage then tape up..then hit water..

keithbradley
05-09-2015, 12:11 PM
I don't ever recall running when pre-run voltage checks weren't done Doug. The only thing that's changed in the past few years is the voltage specs.
I don't understand how everyone is taping up at a CD's table and it's not a problem. At oval events don't you have a bunch of guys taping up at that same time? What do they do?

ray schrauwen
05-09-2015, 12:59 PM
I'm all for voltage checks before races, no problem. I'm good, rules are as I thought they were. I only need 4.20/ cell.

Doby
05-09-2015, 01:09 PM
I don't understand how everyone is taping up at a CD's table and it's not a problem. At oval events don't you have a bunch of guys taping up at that same time? What do they do?

There has to be a certain level of trust involved as well....it is a hobby after all.

keithbradley
05-09-2015, 02:10 PM
There has to be a certain level of trust involved as well....it is a hobby after all.

So what does that mean?

RaceMechaniX
05-09-2015, 03:18 PM
Keith,
At our record trails we have several experienced boaters assigned to check batteries before people tape up. This just means you call them over to your pit prior to you connecting and taping up and they check your cells via the balance tab. we check to three decimal places to ensure each cell is below 4.230V/cell.

At heat racing events it is a little more difficult to tech all boats obviously. We do rely on sportsmanship to race on a level field. Perhaps we will start random battery checks in the pits prior to taping up.

Tyler

Doug Smock
05-09-2015, 08:32 PM
I don't ever recall running when pre-run voltage checks weren't done Doug. The only thing that's changed in the past few years is the voltage specs.
I don't understand how everyone is taping up at a CD's table and it's not a problem. At oval events don't you have a bunch of guys taping up at that same time? What do they do?

Huntsville, E City, and Atlanta have multiple tables set up for teching if needed. (I always take a spare for that reason) Once the boat is inspected it can be moved off of the table as long as it doesn't leave the CD / Technical inspectors sight.
Even though we are allowed 2.5 min pit time. I tell guys to make note of where they are in the running order and try to get inspected prior to the guy two spots ahead of them going in the pond. That gives them plenty of time to get ready and it saves that 2.5 minutes. At RTs where you have 15 to 20 contestants that time adds up.

I agree that spot checking at heat racing events should be adequate.

Doby
05-09-2015, 08:44 PM
So what does that mean?


That's a bit concerning that it needs to be explained...:doh:


Trust= not cheating...that's what it would be as far as I'm concerned.

We are all in it for the hobby and would hope that cheating would be an major concern only for circumstances that involve winning substantial amounts of $$$ vs a $2.00 plastic trophy.

It would be cheating after all to charge batteries higher than currently allowed...anyone that wants to win that badly is obviously making up for other shortcomings in their lives....pathetic really. And lets face it, a few extra fractions of a volt will rarely (if ever) make a difference in oval racing as the fastest boat quite often never crosses the finish line. Getting through traffic alive and not flipping in wakes (buoys etc..) is a greater concern than increases in fractional voltages.

Maybe in the SAW world, its more important as it requires actually no driving skill (sarcasm:tongue:) and is just a point/ shoot and pray for a few seconds type of run.

Do I personally think anyone at the last two Michigan events would/did cheat...No..best bunch of morons to hang out with for a few days. More interested in having fun than anything else. I don't even recall anyone even discussing it...again, everyone to busy having fun.

Perhaps SAW events attract more of a shady type of participant:spy: (sarcasm).

I will be running some of the HV Revos at the Mich Cup this year, fully charged to the best ability of my aging Triton 2 chargers..go ahead and check my voltages...

Doug Smock
05-09-2015, 09:28 PM
I agree with you John and I can't say I have ever suspected someone of cheating at a heat racing event. Are they out there? Probably so. I don't get it either, but I don't think that way.

Time trials are a different animal as our records are only as good as our technical standards & inspections. And of course, if the rules aren't followed we have no insurance.

keithbradley
05-09-2015, 09:55 PM
Pre run voltage is what it should be..As getting voltage after a run has too many variables..As for having a tap on outside of hull..not sure many would want to do that..it's do easy to just have a table setup for pre race..check voltage then tape up..then hit water..

I'm not suggesting it should be mandatory, but at least optional. It just makes sense.

keithbradley
05-09-2015, 10:18 PM
That's a bit concerning that it needs to be explained...:doh:


Trust= not cheating...that's what it would be as far as I'm concerned.


WHAT IS IT?
I guess your answer to "What do you do at oval events?" is that you don't check voltage at oval events?
Are we talking in code here? Comprehension is not something I struggle with, so perhaps you should be concerned. :confused1:


We are all in it for the hobby and would hope that cheating would be an major concern only for circumstances that involve winning substantial amounts of $$$ vs a $2.00 plastic trophy.

You can hope that, but do you really believe that?
If people only cheat for money, why are we even talking about this?

Doby
05-09-2015, 10:54 PM
WHAT IS IT?
I guess your answer to "What do you do at oval events?" is that you don't check voltage at oval events?
Are we talking in code here? Comprehension is not something I struggle with, so perhaps you should be concerned. :confused1:

Keith:


You can hope that, but do you really believe that?
If people only cheat for money, why are we even talking about this?

Grammar 101 "It" is whatever we are talking about...in this case trust/cheating...
No code, but I understand your confusion as I was typing in Canadian...I'll try and type in American...

At.......the.......last.........3........large.... ..FE.......events........I.......attended........ in........ Michigan....... I....... don't ........ recall....... anyone's ........ voltage ........ ever ...... being....... checked ...... . ....... Not .......saying ...... "it" ...... ("it"..... in .... this ..... case .... is .... voltage ..... checking ) ....... wasn't ........ done ........ , but ........ "it" .......... (see....... line ...... above ....... for ...... definition ..... ) ...... probably ....... wasn't ........ deemed ......... worthy........ of ....... interrupting...... everyone's ....... fun.


I'm ..... switching ....... back ...... to ...... Canadian....... now:

How many cases of "it" (voltage cheating) do you know about Keith:spy:? If you have suspicions/proof of any wrong doing, then please bring them to the FE worlds attention.

Should we start opening up spec motors and count the windings?? There are lots of gold motors out there sold by Tower (and others) that are above the 2030 Kv rating but are the same physical size as the current spec motors......wouldn't that slow things down on race day....:blink:

"it"=trust in your fellow competitors.

Doug Smock
05-09-2015, 11:03 PM
Moderator here: Easy fellas...:wink:




I'm not suggesting it should be mandatory, but at least optional. It just makes sense.

Back to Records Director.

This can be beat to death for days, you know have we are.:smile:

The best thing to do is write a proposal, I'll submit it for you.
I don't think it will have any support for reasons stated in post #14, but I'll be glad to take it to the BOD.
The next meeting is the annual Internats meeting that will be held somewhere around June 24th- the 28th, so you have time. It would be a good idea to include a picture of your proposed external connector set up.

ARTICLE VIII - AMENDMENTS
SECTION 1
The IMPBA Official Rule Book shall be amended in the following manner:
A. Proposed amendments must be submitted to a District Director, National Director, President or any Voting Executive Board member in writing and signed and dated by the author and 5 IMPBA current members. It must be received 30 days prior to a Board Meeting for consideration.
B. All rule proposals regarding the Constitution, By Laws, Procedures, General Rules of Competition, Contest & Racing Rules, Technical Standards, and those pertaining to Classes (except those that affect safety or financial solvency of the organization), will be reviewed during any regular or special meeting of the Executive Board. The board will evaluate and approve or disapprove or amend all proposals. (Guideline: Does it benefit the IMPBA, and does it benefit the membership? It must benefit both)

keithbradley
05-09-2015, 11:12 PM
Is that what they're teaching in Canada? Lol.

I would be happy to argue with you Doby, but I'm not sure what we're arguing about. I asked what people's thoughts were on integrating bullets into the hull so voltage can be checked after taping up. I specifically ask this here because it's a good idea, but like anything else, someone will try to find a problem with it (usually the same people). In no way is this question relative to how much trust you have, who you think did or didn't cheat, or how many people you assume I have on a hypothetical cheaters list (Outside of all the big money FE races out there, I don't see much). I don't care what you do with a spec motor, unless you're using the can for a voltage checking port on the outside of the hull, then I think it's a good idea.

Tyler:
Why at the balance plug? It seems like it would be easier and more relevant to check the voltage of the circuit. Couldn't I just remove one wire from a 5s balance plug and run in P?

Doug Smock
05-09-2015, 11:17 PM
Tyler:
Why at the balance plug? It seems like it would be easier and more relevant to check the voltage of the circuit. Couldn't I just remove one wire from a 5s balance plug and run in P?

I was wondering the same.

keithbradley
05-09-2015, 11:21 PM
I was wondering the same.
:ohmy::ohmy::ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:


Captain's Log:

05-09-15

Doug Smock seemingly agrees with me...publicly

:laugh:

Doug Smock
05-09-2015, 11:51 PM
:ohmy::ohmy::ohmy:


Captain's Log:

05-09-15

Doug Smock seemingly agrees with me...publicly

:laugh:

It must be something in the air. I agreed with Terry Davis either this week or last.:laugh:

The end is near.:hide: lol

PS Sorry I had to delete two of your "Oh my"(s) to make room for a "laugh" and a "hide". lol

D. Newland
06-22-2015, 01:45 PM
Both FE proposals passed and will be official once the rulebook is updated.

Please keep in mind that the only thing changed in the voltage proposal was to use ACTUAL voltage rather than NOMINAL voltage for the Power Parameter offerings. NAMBA still only recognizes 3.7 volts/cell nominal as a legal LiPo cell to race.

As mentioned in my OP and in the Propwash, this was not an HV proposal. I'm sure that will come at some point and the best way for it to happen is for clubs to adopt a procedure/guideline, test it, discuss it and see if it's a viable way for NAMBA to go.

Darin Jordan
06-22-2015, 01:54 PM
So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??

T.S.Davis
06-22-2015, 04:26 PM
So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??

In accordance with the proposal. If it can be rendered useless for the heats it's allowed. So no boats that are intended to self right.

In regards to the bullets outside the hull and risks of cheating etc. I hate when we have to have the "cheating" debate. Guys that will cheat will find a way to do it. Bullets outside the hull could be wired accordingly to give the voltage you want indicated. I could pull a tap wire. I could re-wrap a pack after altering the tap wiring inside the pack too. If I was that hell bent on cheating to win I would find a way. I'm not by the way.

I personally think an external test point should be allowed. Racers discretion. Contest directors can always go check the boat later to make sure there are no shenanigans going on. The risk of being caught fooling around should keep people honest.

On that note, to any reading that would cheat.......is it worth it? It's an age old discussion I know. YOU know you cheated. Plus, what if your caught? SAW guys and oval racers alike have a certain respect for one another. If you're caught cheating................nobody respects you ever again. Might as well quit racing. I think this is that trust that John was alluding to. There's a certain amount of trust and respect for your fellow racer required for this hobby to work. We ain't NASCAR. We can't spend days tech'ing the entries prior to race day. We're just a bunch of fools with toy boats that like to occasionally hang out together.

All that said........we do have a plan for this weeks cup race. Random checks. We'll have someone wondering the pits checking randomly. Fred is still on the fence about what the penalty will be for over voltage but he's leaning towards disqualification from that class entirely. At first he was talking your done for the weekend but I talked him down........usually it's the other way around. haha

Brings that question I posed back into view. "Is it worth it?" You get caught by your peers cheating. Not to me it isn't. I have some HV cells. I've been testing them to make sure that I wont screw up and get over the current legal limit due to heat or what ever. I'm not having an oops that would make my friends question my integrity.

Will this work? Not sure. We'll see.

For the record, I do see a future that includes HV cells. I mentioned this somewhere else. It will be a careful timing thing. Like BL motors were.

Darin Jordan
06-22-2015, 04:48 PM
On that note, to any reading that would cheat.......is it worth it? It's an age old discussion I know. YOU know you cheated. Plus, what if your caught? SAW guys and oval racers alike have a certain respect for one another. If you're caught cheating................nobody respects you ever again. Might as well quit racing. I think this is that trust that John was alluding to. There's a certain amount of trust and respect for your fellow racer required for this hobby to work. We ain't NASCAR. We can't spend days tech'ing the entries prior to race day. We're just a bunch of fools with toy boats that like to occasionally hang out together.


We inspect every pack, every time, at the LA SAW event, and it goes very smoothly. Simple to do, and I think the racers appreciate KNOWING there isn't any funny business going on. Pretty hard to catch that stuff AFTER the fact.

We aren't "NASCAR", but I know that you, and MANY others, have HUGE amounts of time and money invested in this stuff. Let's play fair. Trust but verify. Especially when it's so simple to do.

RaceMechaniX
06-22-2015, 05:24 PM
Just a suggestion on checking cells at a heat race:

Ask the racers "on deck" to bring their boats down to the "hot pits" without the cowls taped. Randomly check 1,2 or all of the boats time permitting and let them tape up.
I know many guys will have back to back heats and don't have time so this may not work, but perhaps a random spot check.

If a racer is found "over voltage", I would suggest a penalty proportionate to the amount over. Someone who is at 4.25V/cell is not as flagrant as someone charging to 4.35V/cell or higher.
A couple of throttle blips will bring a 4.25V/cell pack down to a legal voltage.

I am looking forward to hearing if something works out for the process.

TG

T.S.Davis
06-23-2015, 09:08 AM
We had a hot pit for the nats and it was a bust. Nobody wants to do it. It is a pain in the behind. The most minor hiccup and you have no gear to fix it. If I know who is in the next heat and I've been charged with the responsibility of keeping people honest do I need to have everyone come down to a specific spot? It just seems like that is for the benefit of those observing the "check" more so than actual verification.

I know this, I'm simply not checking all 200 boats at the cup. Everyone racing having the knowledge that their boat may well be the next one I check should be enough of a deterrent to keep them from risking it. I would hope at least. This really means nothing as it's hearsay by definition but I've only heard tell of one instance of over voltage. Then I've only suspected it one other time. Both of those occasions were both on LV cells. One of those was the inspiration for the actual voltage limits as over-volting the LV cells is dangerous. Wasn't really illegal though at the time.

I know it might seem all cloak and dagger shady to have over-volted the LV cells but if you think back to the Nimh days we would go to great lengths to get that extra .01 volts into and then back out of the cells. We would pay someone to test a crate of cells. Then hand select the cells that delivers the highest voltage under load with similar IR's. Then "push" them to get just a tic extra. Just before a heat we crushed them on 8amps just to get them hot. Sometimes they would puke their guts out right on the charger. Sizzling pile of batteries coming through. Was it cheating or just trying to find that extra edge? Rules didn't call it cheating.

Racers looking for an edge and even taking a risk with safety isn't anything new. It's just that these cells are much more violent if they fail. None of us want to see anyone get hurt.

Flash back....................a T boat would run you $380 for a mere 4200 mah. And you had to assemble the danged packs yourself. bahaha Ran em until they dumped which pretty much wrecked the matching. Soooo stupid.

Darin Jordan
06-23-2015, 09:17 AM
Terry,

I think you are completely underestimating how much of an advantage voltage is in P-LTD classes.... And these days, you don't have to "push" things to do it... just run the new HV cells...

It's not stupid... it's the difference between "fun-runs", and racing...

And we wonder why Nitro/Gas racers don't take us seriously... WE don't take us seriously....

Darin Jordan
06-23-2015, 09:23 AM
By the way... MOST FE Racing is just "for fun"...

I would only really consider it important to carry out strict checking of cells at a National Level event, where Championships and Records were on the line.

T.S.Davis
06-23-2015, 09:49 AM
I meant it was stupid what we spent on Nimh just to race. That old tech degraded the minute we soldered the cells together.

Darin, how many 200 plus boat races have you CD'd? After you've done it you can explain to me how "simple it is to do". At a SAW where a single boat goes out every 5 or 10 minutes it is certainly simple. I'm not checking every boat for every heat for every race at the Cup. Period. Not sure those attending will think it's just a fun run because we didn't check every boat every time it goes in the water.

I've also been told by multiple sources that the HV cells don't really have an impact until they are charged to capacity. True? I don't know. I can't test them all. My limited exposure thus far is that my amperage dropped a small percentage when charged to legal voltage. Now that was in comparison to two year old cells so it's likely not a fair assessment. I dropped 8 amps.

I've been to multiple mixed events. The gas and nitro boys don't take themselves that seriously either.

The saddest part of this is that at no point will we be testing cells in an effort to catch cheaters. It will be entirely and totally to appease those that aren't at an event. So they can't say "well sure, but nobody checked the voltage so it's not legit".

SAW is the greatest example this. Who in their right mind is going to risk getting caught over voltage? The volt check isn't for the racer. They know they're legal. It's for those that will later look at the results and attempt to discredit them.

Darin Jordan
06-23-2015, 10:36 AM
Darin, how many 200 plus boat races have you CD'd? After you've done it you can explain to me how "simple it is to do". At a SAW where a single boat goes out every 5 or 10 minutes it is certainly simple. I'm not checking every boat for every heat for every race at the Cup. Period. Not sure those attending will think it's just a fun run because we didn't check every boat every time it goes in the water.

Terry,

None... and either have you... There are only 6 boats per heat, remember... :doh:

And, you seem to have missed the part where my only concern would be for the P-LTD or "spec" classes, where the extra voltage actually matters.

This is sounding like the original Lipo debate... people over-complicating a rather simple task.

I don't give a rip what CDs do, honestly... Tell me the rules and if they make sense, I'll build boats and race.

T.S.Davis
06-23-2015, 10:47 AM
Semantics. 200 plus boat events. Somebody has to do all this voltage checking.

It is simple. Random checks. Like a breathalyzer. Not drunk? No worries then.

T.S.Davis
06-23-2015, 11:42 AM
By the way... MOST FE Racing is just "for fun"...

So there is really only one race per year that voltage matters? I didn't see any technical inspections of gas, FE or nitro boats at the Spring nationals in Atlanta. I could have missed it. Was that just a fun run? Felt like a race. I think the hosts thought it was a race.

Never been to a gas nats myself. Do they rip apart every entry before the race so that they can verify displacement etc? Front side. Before the heats. I'm totally ignorant here. If you win a class do they impound the boat so the motor can be torn apart? Again, ignorance on my part. I guess if they're taking themselves seriously they have to in order to award a national champion. I suppose I could check with the national gas chair if I really wanted to know.

Now that I think about it.......I've never checked voltage at my clubs races. Guess I should. Random of course. We've never had anyone totally dominate any class so we've never really thought about it.

RaceMechaniX
06-23-2015, 12:56 PM
Terry and Fred,

You guys should do what comfortably works and hopefully keeps a level playing field. The classes that stand the most to gain from overcharging are P-Ltd and any offshore class.

Purely from the technical side for which I can confirm with data, increasing the cell voltage from 4.20V/cell to 4.35V/cell gains you almost 500mAh on a 5000mAh pack. So in a 2P setup that is close to 1000mAh total. Non-HV cells can easily be charged this high and see the same performance benefits although their life will significantly decrease.

Have a good race guys.

Tyler

BTW, both gas and nitro have stricter tech inspections that FE do. Stock Zenoah's are routinely torn down after a race for the NAMBA Thunderboat class. Nitro OPC classes are also subject to engine tear downs to ensure to legality. Of course all of these happen after a race day. Gas racing is filled with grey areas and people walking the line on legality.

rayzerdesigns
06-23-2015, 07:05 PM
as tyler and darin have stated..the regular cells can be charged to 4.35..and the mah goes up and ir goes down..as people know me..i come from the rc car side but enjoy the boating thing immensely..i have tested charging to the high voltage with the normal cells..if you don't think its an advantage..take this into consideration..i run almost entirely limited classes..in testin only charging to 4.3 per cell my limitd mono has gained almost 2mph..my cat and lsh have seen gains of almost 3mph..thats significant..and terry..it wouldn't be that hard..and im sure you could get volunteers to check pre run voltage..it takes all of a couple seconds..then you can tape up..all you need is one extra table..and chair and a simple volt meter..i totally agree with checking at any big race..especially a national event..or any event where a record could be broken..it really not hard..yes..its a difference from what races I have seen..but I think it needs to be done..just my .02 cents

detox
06-28-2015, 09:43 AM
I thought higher prop speed produced more cavitation:smile:

ray schrauwen
07-09-2015, 02:57 PM
Quote: Darin Jordan: "So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??"


In accordance with the proposal. If it can be rendered useless for the heats it's allowed. So no boats that are intended to self right.

I notice VERY few posts in this thread of people worried about this rule. By passing this rule you have eliminated one person from D1 racing. The reason Kris K. Made the innovation of a self righting boat that doesn't use a flood chamber was 1. To avoid the use or need for a recovery boat and 2. To prevent the delay that a flood chamber creates in order to self right so as to decrease its potential for a collision with other racers.
Kris was not bending any rule or cheating, he was innovative and was punished for dong so by being lumped in with those using flood chambers.

This year at the MI Cup I submarined my Cheetah in heat 2 of P cat. It came back up and I finished my heat and took second in the class, so what right? My boat took longer by at least 2 times to recover than any of Kris's boats that selfright themselves.

Darin, how many boaters have taken you or others out of a sanctioned event with a boat like Kris's? Not boats with flood chambers....

Dave N. you started this proposal right after last years Nats. How many people did Kris interefere with in order for you to create this proposal? How much mahem did Kris cause? If it wasn't because of this what was the motive behind the proposal?
This is a bees nest I don't mind getting right into.

Darin Jordan
07-09-2015, 03:20 PM
Darin, how many boaters have taken you or others out of a sanctioned event with a boat like Kris's? Not boats with flood chambers....

Ray, WHY are you asking me this question?? I had absolutely NOTHING to do with this proposal, or any of the others either.

To answer your question, however, there have been SEVERAL in our club who have had very near misses while guys with self-righting boats fiddle-farted around trying to get them upright again.

Would I ban them? NO. Would I call them as dead if they were upside down on the course for more than a certain amount of time... YES. Just like all the rest of us have to be.


I'd have to go review the rule, but I don't think it BANs self-righting boats. I think it eliminates the USE of the self-righting feature. I see no reason for anyone NOT to race if they have one of these, unless they've just decided to get their panties in a bunch. Can't help you there.

Doby
07-09-2015, 03:51 PM
Ray:

I talked to Chris before the Mich Cup...his stance was that the design of his boats will cause them to self right and there is no way to make that feature not work (like taping up a flood chamber) so therefore his boats were illegal in his opinion. For those not familiar with his designs, picture a cross between a sperm, torpedo and a chicken egg. The boats hatches are kinda egg shaped to one side to provide positive buoyancy and combined with offset battery mounting positions to act like a keel on a sailboat to provide ballast for self righting ability...they worked well (most of the time) and are brutally quick.

To bad he decided not to go, his non selfrighting boats ran well also ....his T Mono gave Haines a run for his money at the Nats last year.

T.S.Davis
07-09-2015, 04:00 PM
Ray, your boat flipped. Was it because you were driving it beyond your butt knowing full well that if you flipped it was no biggy? You came back up upright. That was a fluke. That is not the norm for a Cheetah. How hard would you push with no fear of capsizing?

It's got zero to do with retrieval time.

Has anyone altered their course to miss a boat that was a self righter? yep
Did they come around the next lap in lane 8 to miss it only to find that the boat was gone? yep
Has anyone lost position in so doing? yep
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was running too loose? Don't know. Nobody does.
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was driven too hard through wash? Don't know. Maybe.
Was it self righting because the driver has no fear of being upside down? Who knows. Seems likely though.
Does the ability to "right" give the driver an unfair advantage? Clearly enough thought so.

Dave and number of us have argued this thing to death. The first time I had any conversations about them was 2005 around a camp fire. The first one I saw raced was owned by OSE founder Steve Vacarro. That night a bunch of us blabbed about it. Al Waters thought it was ingenious at the time. "A flood chamber? Really?" The purists said something like "blasphemy". See above for their reasoning. Since then we've had the conversation umpteen times. Opinions still vary. Some have been adamant that righting allows a boat that shouldn't even be able to compete........to actually win.

A prime example, my P mono is ridiculous. Has to be close to 70mph in the straights. I can't finish with it though. The answer is for me to slow down to some sane speed like the boats I'm racing against and actually compete. Or............ should I go the same captain insano speed and compensate by making my boat self right every time I flip?

Dave finally decided to let the membership decide what it wanted. The majority decided no self righters.

ray schrauwen
07-09-2015, 04:02 PM
He is fixing up a cottage he bought on a lake larger than Cambridge. He has his own pond now and when the renos are done to the cabin, maybe a real FE Club will come back to life in Ontario. We are so splintered right now its sad. Too many egos and not enough playing with toys. John, are you going to 50 point in August?

ray schrauwen
07-09-2015, 04:11 PM
David, for what it's worth, I'm with Jay. I don't really have an opinion on #1. My concern there is more about the drivers of those boats getting fixated on getting their boats up and running again, and not paying attention to the boats still actively racing on the course. Been taken out too many times by that.

Thank you.

This post is why I asked you Darin. We're they boats with float chambers or like Kris's ?

T.S.Davis
07-09-2015, 04:13 PM
BTW I lost count of how many cells I checked at the Cup. A bunch. Didn't find anything illegal. Rarely found anything delivering even the 4.2volts. I checked both LV and HV cells. There weren't many HV cells out there. Those poor guys getting re-tapped.

I checked some guys stuff when they weren't even in their pits. They didn't even know I was checking them. Floated in like a vampire bat-checked the cells-out. I even checked some guys chargers during charging. Helps to know how most of the menus work.

I found a fat pack of Zippies that were delivering 4.205 out of one cell. The remainder of that pack was 4.18v or less. Seemed weird at the time.

T.S.Davis
07-09-2015, 04:16 PM
John, are you going to 50 point in August?

Think he's hosed. We'll get his address and ransack his house. WOOOHOOOOO Party! Where's my pimp hat?

Doby
07-09-2015, 04:27 PM
. John, are you going to 50 point in August?

Was going to, but the Mrs informed me earlier this week that our Aug trip to Switzerland is not on the 16th, as I thought, but on the 6th...so no, I'm out...but I was going to go. I even invited the Michigan Bozos to my place for a BBQ and swim when they were here, but had to cancel that as well.

Doby
07-09-2015, 04:30 PM
This is a bees nest I don't mind getting right into.

You in a grumpy mood today Ray:cursing:....got a stick up your azz or what? Sorry, I forgot, the sticks up your Cheetah!:lol:

ray schrauwen
07-09-2015, 04:30 PM
Ray, your boat flipped. Was it because you were driving it beyond your butt knowing full well that if you flipped it was no biggy? You came back up upright. That was a fluke. That is not the norm for a Cheetah. How hard would you push with no fear of capsizing?

It's got zero to do with retrieval time.

Has anyone altered their course to miss a boat that was a self righter? yep
Did they come around the next lap in lane 8 to miss it only to find that the boat was gone? yep
Has anyone lost position in so doing? yep
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was running too loose? Don't know. Nobody does.
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was driven too hard through wash? Don't know. Maybe.
Was it self righting because the driver has no fear of being upsid down? Who knows. Seems likely though.
Does the ability to "right" give the driver an unfair advantage? Clearly enough thought so.

Dave and number of us have argued this thing to death. The first time I had any conversations about them was 2005 around a camp fire. The first one I saw raced was owned by OSE founder Steve Vacarro. That night a bunch of us blabbed about it. Al Waters thought it was ingenious at the time. "A flood chamber? Really?" The purists said something like "blasphemy". See above for their reasoning. Since then we've had the conversation umpteen times. Opinions still vary. Some have been adamant that righting allows a boat that shouldn't even be able to compete........to actually win.

A prime example, my P mono is ridiculous. Has to be close to 70mph in the straights. I can't finish with it though. The answer is for me to slow down to some sane speed like the boats I'm racing against and actually compete. Or............ should I go the same captain insano speed and compensate by making my boat self right every time I flip?

Dave finally decided to let the membership decide what it wanted. The majority decided no self righters.

I push the limit all the time, self righting or not but, I make sure I'm last across the start so I can pick up the crumbs.

I was not privy to any of these debates, was Kris?

I did not say anything about retrieval time but, I said it requires no retrieval at all because of its design as long as no electrical failures. When running alone, no retrieve boat is required. If racing, its one less boat to get.

Many of your points listed above can occur with any boat. A normal boat that dies can sink in a lap, same result as the self righter that continued on. People alter course for dead boats all the time, stuff happens, not Just with a self righting boat.
Points 4,5,6 are null, since you say basically who knows? Point 7, there are many ways to gain advantage like using an outboard motor (exposed motor on bottom of a catamaran) in a cat class like at the Nats. Did anyone mnake a proposal for that innovation???

ray schrauwen
07-09-2015, 04:38 PM
You in a grumpy mood today Ray:cursing:....got a stick up your azz or what? Sorry, I forgot, the sticks up your Cheetah!:lol:
Sort of, maybe.

You did not make it look last year and I think you said why.

Doby
07-09-2015, 04:41 PM
So we need to limit where motors can be mounted now?? Come on Ray...get out of the sun or at least start wearing a hat....

XOXOX

Doby
07-09-2015, 04:44 PM
Remember Ray, you are arguing a point that is in an organization you don't belong too, just like me...We are evil IMPBA slime. If we want to play in the NAMBA's sandbox, we have to bring the right toys to play nicely.

Haven't read the IMPBA rule book in a while, maybe self-righters are still allowed.

Doby
07-09-2015, 04:46 PM
Sort of, maybe.

.

Need a hug???:hug1:

ray schrauwen
07-09-2015, 04:57 PM
Chris is done with clubs and racing at this time. I would be too if I were him but, I'm not.

Sorry I came off harsh but, Chris was the best thing for FE boats in Ontario since Steve R. left it behind. Too few of us up here to loose any but, it is what it is.

There is you, me, Daniel, Robert, and Jay with both feet into FE ovals, we need to be more inclusive and drop the egos.

ray schrauwen
07-09-2015, 04:59 PM
Need a hug???:hug1:

Yes and thank you! :wub:

T.S.Davis
07-09-2015, 05:33 PM
I was not privy to any of these debates, was Kris?


Does it matter? We've been talking about it for 10 years. I doubt Chris was racing in 2005 but I'm pretty sure he knew there were some that thought it wasn't fair.

You're still missing the point Ray. You could peg the trigger and leave it there until the end of the race or until you flipped. All while your competition is peddling it for the conditions.

Chris is just the only guy that YOU know with self righters. How about this? We give Ava Paganelli my P mono setup and put it in a self righting hull? She'll never lose another heat. Ever. It's not about Chris personally.

You know what else.....who builds a boat and sticks with it forever? Sheesh. "Oh the rules changed............guess I'll quit racing" Are you kidding me? The original LSO rules made two of the boats I was actually selling (for real money) completely illegal. Guess I should have gotten out then.

This really is the reason that Dave decided not to decide. Let the members decide. They did.

T.S.Davis
07-09-2015, 05:50 PM
Sorry but I have to rant a bit here. We've seen a recurring theme in the last year. Why is it that if someone doesn't get their way in FE they quit or they don't race?

"That's it! I'm taking my ball and going home! We play my way or I'm not playing!"

If the rules change, if you're a racer, you adapt. Anybody own a PT Stealth? Think those exist without the evolution of the rule set? Why did you get one? Because the boat you ran in the old LSH on 700 motors wasn't quite as good. You adapted for the new rules.

If the rules DON'T change to your liking you comply until they do.

If you want change you don't pout about it. You take the steps to help people see the light. If your direction is going to better the sport then people will be easily convinced.

Doby
07-09-2015, 05:54 PM
Things will become much simpler once I am declared Overlord of the Earth...do it my way........................or else!

I don't think Chris is pouting...he ran some great mono's, cats and riggers over the years...none of which were self righting...he probably just figured it wasn't worth the time for the few classes he could run...IMO.

ray schrauwen
07-10-2015, 04:39 PM
I'll just throw in the towel at this point. The majority always wins. I don't think Df33's are legal or my older PTSS. Others have modified their old PTSS hydro's but, I haven't and I don't think I'd get a complaint unless it was a Nats and I took 1st. Only when you come first it seems people get picky on rules or, create a rule to remove an innovative advantage if you have the backing.
Whatever...

T.S.Davis
07-10-2015, 05:19 PM
Ray, you say you're throwing in the towel and then you throw in the zinger at the end to imply that the rule was proposed and passed to keep out a superior design that's winning.

All those reasons that I listed above were the thinking that inspired the proposal. I wasn't really making "points". I was telling you where guys thoughts went on it. Those are the "why" there WAS a proposal at all.

What the majority voted for was boats that are designed to race equally and that don't require a crutch for their inability to finish. I know that's harsh but it's the bottom line.

For any confused too........NAMBA and IMPBA are not representative republics. They are direct democracies. The majority absolutely governs. The members get what the members want. If that sucks, start a new organization or crawl inside either and teach them the error of their ways. We've been through this before. Not sure why I bother with these rules discussions myself. I'm just a glue sniffing racer like the rest.

How about "John Einstein - supreme ruler of all things that float"? It's got a nice ring to it. Where do I vote? Wait......... no voting.......go right for the dictatorship.

D. Newland
07-10-2015, 06:41 PM
Ray-Where was your fire back in January when I made this post? Al Waters would have accepted a Propwash article from you or anyone else that had an opinion on this proposal. NAMBA member or not.

Would it have helped? Maybe, but I doubt it. This is one of those things where guys have their opinions, and no amount of discussion is going to change it.

Innovative Advantage. Your words. Not sure I agree with that because Chris has been racing his boats for years and this proposal would have happened 7 years sooner if he was mopping up the competition. Also...nobody else was doing it. That says something.

The reason why I submitted it in 2015 is because of what Terry said, I was getting tired of holding discussions, hearing opinions and coming up with one-off procedures on how to handle self-righters at National events. Especially since we are now having Gas/Nitro CD's. They have a hard enough time figuring out what's a dead boat. Throw a self-righter into the mix and it's just not fair...for them!

It was time for the racers to decide which direction we should go. Plain and simple. Chris may have gotten the short end of the stick, but I felt it better to address it now rather than later, possibly saving more racers from getting the short end of the bubble-hatch stick.

D. Newland
07-10-2015, 06:42 PM
Also, just curious, have you emailed Chris Harris to see what IMPBA thinks about self-righters?

Doby
07-10-2015, 10:45 PM
How about "John Einstein - supreme ruler of all things that float"? It's got a nice ring to it. Where do I vote? Wait......... no voting.......go right for the dictatorship.

Quote Mr. Burns...Excellllllent!

Ray; why the sudden militant posts on this topic? Need another hug? Remember your comments about ego...perhaps attitude should be throw in there as well. Did you not have fun at the Nats and the Cup this year...

I hate to quote some moderator with an accent...but they are just toy boats fellas.

T.S.Davis
07-11-2015, 12:40 AM
John, after having been in the organizational mix I would recommend sticking with pee on status. If you're on the BOD or are a chairman then the rules are never ever right, its your fault, and its your job to fix them. Wave our wand! None of that is true but that's what you get. Many complain about this rule or that rule but read the book and follow the process ? ................NEVAAA!

Doby
07-11-2015, 09:37 AM
There will be no complaining allowed...punishable by death. Very simple rule to follow. Terry, you want a job as enforcer?

chris
07-11-2015, 01:14 PM
Well in my opinion "self-righters" boats are more appealing and safer to younger boaters and with exception off mechanical failure the reduce need for retrieving .

jaike5
07-11-2015, 08:39 PM
Chris,
They already make self righters for little kids at the splash pool or cottage. The big kids have a retrieve boat with a 200 hp merc . I know caboatah ken has one on order for the Nats in Michigan next year ! The motor they had this year was scream'n trying to push a 16' boat, 2/260lb men(kids), and 1-6 model boats. Forget the sperm missile and come and race. You have great boats. See you at 50 Point eh!

Ray..... settle down, or I'll have to call Wendy and get her to smack you a good one !

Cheers, Jay.
Race on :rockon2:

ray schrauwen
07-11-2015, 08:58 PM
Quote Mr. Burns...Excellllllent!

Ray; why the sudden militant posts on this topic? Need another hug? Remember your comments about ego...perhaps attitude should be throw in there as well. Did you not have fun at the Nats and the Cup this year...

I hate to quote some moderator with an accent...but they are just toy boats fellas.

Yes, I had fun but, its dog sh/t ever since, sorry.

ray schrauwen
07-11-2015, 09:00 PM
Ray-Where was your fire back in January when I made this post? Al Waters would have accepted a Propwash article from you or anyone else that had an opinion on this proposal. NAMBA member or not.

Would it have helped? Maybe, but I doubt it. This is one of those things where guys have their opinions, and no amount of discussion is going to change it.

Innovative Advantage. Your words. Not sure I agree with that because Chris has been racing his boats for years and this proposal would have happened 7 years sooner if he was mopping up the competition. Also...nobody else was doing it. That says something.

The reason why I submitted it in 2015 is because of what Terry said, I was getting tired of holding discussions, hearing opinions and coming up with one-off procedures on how to handle self-righters at National events. Especially since we are now having Gas/Nitro CD's. They have a hard enough time figuring out what's a dead boat. Throw a self-righter into the mix and it's just not fair...for them!

It was time for the racers to decide which direction we should go. Plain and simple. Chris may have gotten the short end of the stick, but I felt it better to address it now rather than later, possibly saving more racers from getting the short end of the bubble-hatch stick.

Sorry Dave.

chris
07-11-2015, 09:02 PM
Hi Jay , 8 boats to run , I am impressed .

Jeff
07-14-2015, 09:03 PM
John, after having been in the organizational mix I would recommend sticking with pee on status. If you're on the BOD or are a chairman then the rules are never ever right, its your fault, and its your job to fix them. Wave our wand! None of that is true but that's what you get. Many complain about this rule or that rule but read the book and follow the process ? ................NEVAAA!

He said wand.

line6
07-17-2015, 01:45 AM
I haven't been racing in a while. But a gota say if you guys are doing away with the self-righter. holly crap its about time. They have there place but it is not in heat racing....


Jason Sims

Retired Racer but don't cont me out.:spy: