Chargrilled Swordfish

[IRON-PAWW]

Well. I killed my HV Swordfish 240A on only the second run. Was installed in a 36in Ariane with an M445, and running 6S. TP 1690kv motor. I ran the boat a few weeks back with no issues. Ran it yesterday for less than a minute and boy did I have issues. Motor was *very* hot, so I suspect damaged too. Batts were fine. Can anyone suggest what might have happened here? I don't really know, but I suspect water has leaked from the split metal cooling tubes.... or something, and the water has gone underneath the factory waterproofing. Do these pics suggest anything to you guys. I can't afford to keep killing 240A HV Swordfish ESC's so - my fault or not....... I gotta know!


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/CharSword1_zps1a27d381.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/CharSword2_zpsee5506e5.jpg

[srislash]

I would get ahold of Michelle at Hifie. Is a cooling tube split?

[IRON-PAWW]

They all are. Aren't they supposed to be? When I look down each of the cooling tubes you can see a definite split mid way in each one. I actually noted that when I first bought it, and queried Steve about it. He said to me that the splits were correct and the unit was fine to use. However.... now with the shrink wrap off (burned off) I actually don't see any visible splits (as in manufactured that way), just as in the photos. So what the heck is going on?

[srislash]

What size is that 1690? Even a 4082 shouldn't have much hassle turning a 445 in a 36" boat. Unless it was running wet.

You could first try Steve Monday and see what he thinks.

[IRON-PAWW]

Motor is a TP Pro Comp 4060 1690kv. Yeah - will try Steve and see what his opinion is.

[Make-a-Wake]

That ESC shouldnt even break a sweat with your setup, something is "fishy" with your swordfish!

See what Steven has to say................

[Rocstar]

I suspect the motor if it was running hot under reasonable load. A motor going bad will take out an ESC.

[IRON-PAWW]

Yeah it just doesn't make sense to me either. I'd checked all the parameters with the program box right before running as well, and really, I think I'd only been going for 30 - 40 secs when the boat stopped. Not much time at all. Did all the usual checks... prop running freely etc etc. Unless the TP Pro Comp is bad? Only second run for that too. But..... was ok first time out a few weeks back. Temps were all good and the boat was dry inside at the end of the run. Something went bad I really think.......

Just saw your post Rocstar. Yeah...... hmmmmm ok the plot thickens. The motor *was* red hot. Absolutely red hot. And I'd assumed initially the bad ESC had caused that. But perhaps you are right......

[kfxguy]

I suspect the motor if it was running hot under reasonable load. A motor going bad will take out an ESC.

This.^^^^^^^

The motor should have not been hot. It was probably shorting. Take it apart and look for darks spots, or black spots. It's should look like nice copper wire through out. That may not tell you for sure tho.

[IRON-PAWW]

Ahh gudday KFX. Read your exploits in the past few weeks.

So even if you went BBQ status with your ESC your motor wouldn't necessarily chargrill along with it? I guess it depends exactly what the fault is right?

Will remove the TP and have a look see then. I do actually have a Neu to put in the hull as it happens..... When I get another damn ESC!

Has anyone ever been successful in getting bad motors replaced under - dare I say the word - warranty??

[srislash]

Ahh gudday KFX. Read your exploits in the past few weeks.

So even if you went BBQ status with your ESC your motor wouldn't necessarily chargrill along with it? I guess it depends exactly what the fault is right?

Will remove the TP and have a look see then. I do actually have a Neu to put in the hull as it happens..... When I get another damn ESC!

Has anyone ever been successful in getting bad motors replaced under - dare I say the word - warranty??

My communication with TP has been good. Mind you I have never asked about motor failure. Deal direct though, TP USA is lacklustre in my opinion.
Shawn

[IRON-PAWW]

Right, Gotcha :). Will they get their panties all in a bunch if I go ahead and open up the motor? Like - void the warranty because I delved where I shouldn't have?

Thanks for all the help by the ways guys!!

[keithbradley]

More than likely, your motor took out your ESC.
I would replace it before running a new ESC.

With that said, the waterproofing isn't perfect on these (or anything, really). I have had failures from water intrusion. Actually, out of the many HV SF ESCs I've ran, the only times I've ever had one fail is from:
- A locked rotor on a motor
- A bullet connector on the motor was loose, and became disconnected during a run
- I crashed a boat that stuck into the bottom of the lake for 4-5 seconds at a SAW event, and filled the hull with water...when it came up, the ESC fried.
- I stored a boat outside next to a lake, where heavy dew covered everything the next morning. Despite drying everything, my RX failed. I replaced that, and the ESC failed 30 seconds into the run.

I have no questions about these all being failures related to water intrusion, with the exception of the times that were motor failures.
Honestly, I've been absolutely brutal to the HV Swordfish ESCs, and these are the only times I've had them fail. I know other people have had failures, but I have to believe it is mostly due to cheap motors. I've ran SO MANY of these ESCs, and I run them hard. Just don't put too much trust in the "waterproof" designation. Consider it a different type of "water resistant".

[Make-a-Wake]

A 40 second run producing a red-hot motor sums it up, bad motor...................poor ESC:tongue_smilie:

[IRON-PAWW]

Hi Keith - Thanks for your input too mate :) Also been to your website many times!

Ok so looks like we're getting a consensus here - dead motor. I have a Neu 1515 2.5D 1650kv that I might try in it. Smaller motor though. So I need to swallow the loss of the HV Swordfish and maybe chase TP at least to get a replacement motor. Not sure I can afford another HV Swordfish just now, so I'll have to look at something else I think. So what *is* the story with the metal cooling tubes on them? They seem split in the middle when you look through them... yet outwardly, as in my photos above, they are not 2 separate pieces. If I do get another one.... should I replace the 'waterproofing'? Have cut away a little of the waterproofing now and yeah - no holes - just the way the cooling tubes are made internally I think.

TP motor shaft still turns normally atm as far as I can tell, but obviously *something* went down during the run.



Yeah Make a Wake...... Damn cheap TP motor!!! Might just sledgehammer it to make me feel better.......

[gsbuickman]

A 40 second run producing a red-hot motor sums it up, bad motor...................poor ESC:tongue_smilie:

I tend to agree with you Carl, it doesn't sound like any kind of water damaged esc issue t o me. I am almost wondering if he seized and spun a bearing rather than blowing it out ??? :confused1: . I've never had it happen myself but I've seen it a time or two & it generates an incredible amount of heat in a real quick hurry :flashfire:

[tlandauer]

I have burned three motors and if anything, two of the incidents were my set up. Each time there is a strong burnt smell and the heat is tremendous from the motors and you know there was a short. All you need to do is spin the shaft and you can feel a mushy feeling with severe friction. I know it wasn't locked rotors, but each time the ESC survived.
I am curious as to what kind of motor failure would take down an ESC?? Want to learn.
Thanks!

[kevinpratt823]

I have burned three motors and if anything, two of the incidents were my set up. Each time there is a strong burnt smell and the heat is tremendous from the motors and you know there was a short. All you need to do is spin the shaft and you can feel a mushy feeling with severe friction. I know it wasn't locked rotors, but each time the ESC survived.
I am curious as to what kind of motor failure would take down an ESC?? Want to learn.
Thanks!

Typically a shorted winding will not change the feel of the way the motor turns, perhaps your failures were more than just shorts. Extreme heat will cause loss of magnetism in rotor, that may be what your feeling. Shorts will kill the esc, but if you get off the throttle and stay off, sometimes the esc will survive.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[IRON-PAWW]

Hmmmmm Well I took the motor apart. Both bearings appear to run smooth still. Certainly not graunchy. With the motor together I am able to spin the shaft normally - with the same feel as when the motor was new. However - I guess there could still be a fault that causes a bearing to lock at speed - but I can't replicate that on the bench. No black burns inside. However, I did find a very fine coating of iron filings in some spots. Not a lot, and very very fine.

To me it looks as if the lacquer on the windings has melted. Look at pic 4. So either way the motor is done right? - still I knew it probably was....

Hard to get good pics........



(1)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/TP1jpg_zps86a2467a.jpg

(2)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/TP2_zps9473004e.jpg

(3)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/TP3_zpse1f1a4d6.jpg

(4)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/TP4_zps4ec18977.jpg

(5)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/TP5_zpsb8ba0a9d.jpg

(6)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/TP6_zpsd9294b4d.jpg

[tlandauer]

TP lacquer does have a darker shade, very much like your picture. Unlike that of Leopard or Neu. Do you smell a distinct burnt smell?

@ Kevin,
the only reason I suspect that it was shorted was that it is the same feel as if you let the three motor wires touch each other, the motor immediately becomes difficult to spin. May be I am crazy.I thought that has the same effect as the windings having a short??? :noidea:

[kfxguy]

yea, looks like those windings are done for. there should be no dark coloring to it. hold tight, I have a burnt leopard that was sent to me the othere day for inspection. i'll post pics

[Make-a-Wake]

Check out your pic

[kfxguy]

check out your pic

agreed

[Make-a-Wake]

I would certainly try for warranty on the motor, hopefully they dont feel its been compromised by dismantling it. I'd ask for some restitution on the ESC as well, cant hurt to ask.

[Make-a-Wake]

I may get pounced on for this, but i would confidently run a T120a with that 1515 you are considering, even on 6s. I ran my 4074 2200kv Leopard in my Pursuit with the T120 for a whole season, only $49 risk this time. If you dont feel comfortanle about that, the Hoss T180 Steven sells here will get the job done with NO question.

[flraptor07]

I'm gonna agree with most that the motor is the culprit, deffinetly looks like 1/2 the windings are fried in that pic. I'm running a TFL Ariane with a Swordfish 240 Pro Plus, TP4070 1770kv, and a Prather Stainless 230 48.5mm 1.6 pitch, on 6s. After a 6 lap heat temps are 120deg.F range on everything except packs and packs are usually around 90-95deg.F Average amp draw is around 160 with spikes up to 230 or so. My set up is a bit more agressive than yours and I have no issues.

[kevinpratt823]

TP lacquer does have a darker shade, very much like your picture. Unlike that of Leopard or Neu. Do you smell a distinct burnt smell?

@ Kevin,
the only reason I suspect that it was shorted was that it is the same feel as if you let the three motor wires touch each other, the motor immediately becomes difficult to spin. May be I am crazy.I thought that has the same effect as the windings having a short??? :noidea:
I stand corrected, didn't even occur to me that it would have that effect, but just tried the 3 wires together thing, definitely feel the difference! I will have to ponder that a bit, learn something new every day.

[Rocstar]

I have a burnt leopard that was sent to me the othere day for inspection. i'll post pics
How are you testing bad motors? I thought about using my megger to test the windings like I use on industrial motors, but haven't tried it yet.

[kfxguy]

How are you testing bad motors? I thought about using my megger to test the windings like I use on industrial motors, but haven't tried it yet.

Well this one was black like the one above but a little worse, but I tested it like this.... (pretty obvious when you see it lol)


http://youtu.be/-TvI33k7gSo

[tlandauer]

FWIW, one of the motors I burned was a Neu 1515 1y which I sent back for rebuild. I talked to the tech dept. and specifically asked if the magnets are ok on the rotor since the temp was so high. They performed test(s) and replied that my rotor is good and all I needed was a new stator.
When the Neu burned, it just stopped and smelled awful, the ESC was fine.
I wonder if the ESC (SK180) has a better software profile for deteccting motor failure, because I remember clearly holding full trigger a few times despite knowing that it is a No NO.
Also IMO the damage is accumalative, you can have a good run from the previous day and on the day of the failure all it can take is just 30 sec.
Just my $.02

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk 2

[Rocstar]

Well this one was black like the one above but a little worse, but I tested it like this.... (pretty obvious when you see it lol)

Letting the smoke out is one way to test it, lol. Hopefully it doesn't damage your controller.

[Make-a-Wake]

Hey Terry, just think of it this way. You have the distinction of being the first man to toast a motor in RC boat history!:doh:

:bounce:

[flraptor07]

Well this one was black like the one above but a little worse, but I tested it like this.... (pretty obvious when you see it lol)


http://youtu.be/-TvI33k7gSo

Travis, I'd think testing it that way would be a little rough on your tester....:doh:

[kfxguy]

Travis, I'd think testing it that way would be a little rough on your tester....:doh:

That's why I'm using a mamba monster. It has protection. I shorted the wires on it the other day by accident. ... it was alot more zap than I expected. But the esc shuts down. Wish all our boat esc's would do the same

[ray schrauwen]

A motor with an 8mm shaft might help if the rotor is vibrating at full rpm. HET, NEU, and TP 4070 motors have 8mm shafts.

[kfxguy]

A motor with an 8mm shaft might help if the rotor is vibrating at full rpm. HET, NEU, and TP 4070 motors have 8mm shafts.

Big shafts are always better




Muhahahaha!

[flraptor07]

Big shafts are always better




Muhahahaha!

Boat Motors, Travis we're talking about BOAT MOTORS!!!

[keithbradley]

That's why I'm using a mamba monster. It has protection. I shorted the wires on it the other day by accident. ... it was alot more zap than I expected. But the esc shuts down. Wish all our boat esc's would do the same

Many of them have the same protection. The Castle Ice air and marine ESCs both had/have over current protection. MGM and Schulze ESCs have safeties in place for reversed polarity, shorting, locked rotor, and motor leads falling off. However they will all tell you that any of these situation can still fry the ESC, regardless of protections within the ESC.

When I was using Castle Ice air ESCs in boats (before they released the Hydra Ice), I dunked a 160HV (essentially the same as a Hydra Ice 200HV) and the overcurrent protection shut the ESC off after spiking to just over 300A. I dried it out and it worked fine. Other people weren't so lucky though. Sometimes the overcurrent protection seemed to do nothing to prevent failure.

[kevinpratt823]

How are you testing bad motors? I thought about using my megger to test the windings like I use on industrial motors, but haven't tried it yet.
A megger will really only be good to test for a fault to ground I think. To test for compromised windings, i.e. a short against itself, you would need an extremely high resolution/accurate ohm meter.

[IRON-PAWW]

I may get pounced on for this, but i would confidently run a T120a with that 1515 you are considering, even on 6s. I ran my 4074 2200kv Leopard in my Pursuit with the T120 for a whole season, only $49 risk this time. If you dont feel comfortanle about that, the Hoss T180 Steven sells here will get the job done with NO question.


I'm gonna agree with most that the motor is the culprit, deffinetly looks like 1/2 the windings are fried in that pic. I'm running a TFL Ariane with a Swordfish 240 Pro Plus, TP4070 1770kv, and a Prather Stainless 230 48.5mm 1.6 pitch, on 6s. After a 6 lap heat temps are 120deg.F range on everything except packs and packs are usually around 90-95deg.F Average amp draw is around 160 with spikes up to 230 or so. My set up is a bit more agressive than yours and I have no issues.

Ok good advice guys :thumbup1: So... ok just looking at the ESC's Steve has got here......

I can go the Seaking 180 for $119.00 - yeah.. that's doable.

Or the Swordfish Pro 200 Amp 8S for $129.00

What is the pick of those two in people's opinions??

Will I get away with those on 6S in the Ariane Hull? And those cheaper 6S Swordfish speedy's...... can you actually run em on 6S? And in a 36in mono With that Neu 1515 1650?

[kevinpratt823]

Not familiar with your hull, but I ran a 1521/1577kv on 6s in my 33" Cyberstorm(M445) with a SK180 for quite a while and it held up just fine. I haven't owned that particular SF, so I can't speak for it, but I have had some good luck with their other controllers.

[IRON-PAWW]

Ok well the Ariane2 is a TFL Hull. 36 - 37 inches long. Nothing too off the planet :smile: Oh boy.... you can see my frikkin burnt cooling tube in this photo.....

Well ok... if you ran a 1521 / 1577kv on 6S with Seaking 180 then I'd wager I'd probably get away with it too in this hull with my setup. Most of my other boats actually run the seakings anyhow.

Add that to Make-a-Wake's advice/report above and the numbers are adding up for it.

I actually have 2 x Neu 1521 / 1860kv motors with the 8mm shafts that are going into a cat I have on the bench - which is partly why my spending cash is gone right now. But....... not for the Ariane I think.

I just wondered if the Swordfish - for the extra 20 bucks - has anything more to offer than the SK. If it's much of a muchness then I'd rather take the 20 into a seaside bar and get cocktails......

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t373/adamstr/Ariane2_zpsfc61b1b1.jpg

[olwarbirds]

Well this one was black like the one above but a little worse, but I tested it like this.... (pretty obvious when you see it lol)


http://youtu.be/-TvI33k7gSo

uuuuuu whats that smell :laugh: looks like something I'd do. I have 2 boats that the smell of magic smoke just wont go away in... DJ

[olwarbirds]

Terry, the T-180 is rated to alot more amps than the SF. We have used several T-180 esc's in 6S setups running motors up too 2300kv with no probs. We have yet to burn up a T-120 or T-180, but we sure have burnt up plenty of others... DJ

[Make-a-Wake]

uuuuuu whats that smell :laugh: looks like something I'd do. I have 2 boats that the smell of magic smoke just wont go away in... DJ

I havent experienced a smell like that which just doesnt leave.........even skunk odor goes away eventually.

[Make-a-Wake]

The swordfish 220a 2-6s is actually 10 bucks cheaper then the T180. The SF 200a 2-8s is 10 bucks more but its an opto, then you need to mess with an SBEC or a reciever pack for only 6s. I have an SBEC if you need one for minimal expense, but i'd go with the higher amperage 2-6s myself.

[kfxguy]

i would much rather a seaking 180 over a swordfish....

[Make-a-Wake]

i would much rather a seaking 180 over a swordfish....

Me too.................awesome ESC. I have heard some folks say its more like a 200a rating, maybe they did tests if such a thing exists for an esc.

[kfxguy]

Me too.................awesome ESC. I have heard some folks say its more like a 200a rating, maybe they did tests if such a thing exists for an esc.

I'm pretty sure mine is a little more robust than stock too...I upgrade wiring to 8ga, upgrade caps and add a nice cap bank. You do those few things, and it's a pretty stout unit.

[Make-a-Wake]

I add two 1000uf caps myself, just more confidence and probably longevity to the ESC as well.

I modded the cooling on one where the big empty space between the cooling tubes is closed off on each end and one intake and output fills the chamber for alot more efficient cooling. i used what i had laying around which ended up being aluminum L stock, the added side on the L just adds extra heat disapation i would imagine.

[kfxguy]

I add two 1000uf caps myself, just more confidence and probably longevity to the ESC as well.

I modded the cooling on one where the big empty space between the cooling tubes is closed off on each end and one intake and output fills the chamber for alot more efficient cooling. i used what i had laying around which ended up being aluminum L stock, the added side on the L just adds extra heat disapation i would imagine.
I'm sure it helps. I did something similar. ...

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc243/ltzguy/20140718_230057.jpg (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/ltzguy/media/20140718_230057.jpg.html)

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc243/ltzguy/20140719_145217.jpg (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/ltzguy/media/20140719_145217.jpg.html)

[Make-a-Wake]

Nice! Mine looks like a "caveman" rendition compared to yours but its just for function, good job!

Yah know T180's had an issue of pre-mature thermal cutoff from my experience and a few others I spoke with, maybe it wasd the limited cooling system they made stock........

[kfxguy]

Nice! Mine looks like a "caveman" rendition compared to yours but its just for function, good job!

Yah know T180's had an issue of pre-mature thermal cutoff from my experience and a few others I spoke with, maybe it wasd the limited cooling system they made stock........

i have not had mine shut down. Honestly, i have not seen temps over 109f so im sure thats why.