Turbine scales

[Todd Fleury]

I know that there are only a few here in the states, but I am trying to get something going in NAMBA and IMPBA so they can at least set a record. These boats fall under every aspect in both NAMBA and IMPBA, for length, weight and propeller driven. I also know that the jetcat engines are under the CC limit.

[T.S.Davis]

Todd,

I know we've had this conversation before. There are no safety rules prohibiting them. Not in the NAMBA book at least. The only issue rule wise is that there are no turbine classes. The likely hood of there ever being an actual class is slim. TOOoooooo much dough.

The book says that if you don't follow the safety rules you will lose insurance coverage. It doesn't say "follow the class rules" despite the belief of some that it does.


Disregard of these safety regulations will cause the loss of insurance eligibility for the
member should an accident occur. Disregard of these safety regulations can also
result in the member being ejected from an event by the contest officials, or can cause
the member to lose use of a particular racing site.

Those that try to keep you from running them at all can't point to a rule. They have an agenda for what ever reason. They want to say it's a "safety" issue but there is no reference to a section in the book that I've seen to back them up.

The CC limit isn't a "safety" rule. Maximum voltage isn't in the safety rules either and that TOTALLY should be. There are no classes for them but on paper you can run a 20s setup without insurance issues. You're stupid but you're insured.

Although, who knows. There are things that the BOD voted on recently that I've never actually seen on paper. We'll see at least one brand new safety rule in the next printing in January. Maybe there's something new on turbine power too.

Interesting to is that there are no provisions for any executive member to revoke insurance coverage. A CD can eject a racer and not allow him to use a site but there's no allowance for cancellation from say 1200+ miles away. Just say'n.........

[Todd Fleury]

From someone within NAMBA..........

Todd,
It has come to my attention that you may be running a boat with a turbine engine. It sounds like a blast. However, I must inform you that NAMBA Insurance does not cover you in case of an accident, nor will the lake/land owner be covered. These engines types have not been approved by NAMBA nor have they been included within our insurance coverage.

As these engines types get more popular we may need to look into coverage.

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah I know.................apparently if you're high enough in the organization you can decide what the rules are and enforce them as you see fit. haha There was a call to our district too.

There is nothing in writing that was published and distributed to the membership that corresponds to that email.

If you had to go to court the only way the organization/underwriter can forfeit coverage is if you violated the safety rules. Per our rule book that is distributed to the membership. As NO motors are specified in those safety rules I can't see how it's enforceable. I say that but the only way it would ever come up is if there was some catastrophe, the insurance denied a claim, and lawyers had to sort it out.

I've not read the IMPBA rules for comparison but it's currently on my "to-do" list. Not regarding this. Just on general principle.

[Doug Smock]

Todd,
We are having a BOD meeting next month. I'll see if we can get something on the agenda for you as promised.
It would be cool to see these run for records.

[photohoward1]

You are covered under most home owner policies though. Stupid is as stupid does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jaike5]

I would think turbine would fall under the open class ...... or is it a closed open class. Is there a rule some where in the fine print you have to read in a mirror with a jewelers loupe.

Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

In order to run in an open class there has to be a class established (rules) within the organization for the boat.
Otherwise the open classes would be a free for all.:ohmy:

[keithbradley]

Todd,
We are having a BOD meeting next month. I'll see if we can get something on the agenda for you as promised.
It would be cool to see these run for records.

Heck yes.
Turbines have been around for a long time. In terms of safety I don't know how anyone can say they have a greater potential to cause injury/property damage than an I/C or electric boat.
It's definitely the easiest move to just say "NO", but I'm glad Doug isn't just doing what's easy here. Thanks to the guys who go out of their way to do what's right, not just what's easy (and for free at that).

By the way, how many entries are needed for a "class"? Is it just a matter or voting it in and writing it into the rules or do there need to be a certain number of boats participating?

[Doug Smock]

This is going to be a tough sell Keith, and I've been honest with Todd about that.
There does need to be a number? of boats running, and real membership interest in the class typically. But, this isn't a typical class.

I know there aren't many of them in the US. A few reasons for that I'm sure.

But, they are model boats, they are very cool, there is some interest.
I think we should to talk about it. See if they can be insured. Try to get a exhibition or two approved at our record trials. ( It's a start) I think it would be sweet to have these running at our record trials, for records. How will we know if we don't ask. I ain't skeered. lol

I'd love to have one but then I'd need a new wife, house, etc.:laugh:

[Todd Fleury]

This is all I wanted, a discussion regarding these boats. I just am tired of hearing no.

[T.S.Davis]

By the way, how many entries are needed for a "class"? Is it just a matter or voting it in and writing it into the rules or do there need to be a certain number of boats participating?

It could be proposed by a district (for NAMBA). Then a district vote. If passed at the district level it would go to national for a vote. Typically a DD wont go out on that limb without seeing a season of boats to prove the concept and the demand. 3 boats makes a class but if you're seeing 3 boats for a season of racing that doesn't really indicate demand. By all means, if you're having fun run them but don't get hung up on there being an official class for them. In the past we've run a class for at least a year before proposing anything for voting. If numbers are only so-so it's time to reach out to other districts to see if anyone else is running your concept. Gauging the demand isn't an exact science. This is the step that DD's have been known to skip in the past too. Anybody seen ECO at a NAMBA event lately? Nobody was running it when it was proposed either. There might not be three turbine scales in the US total so the likelihood of it ever getting proven and/or proposed to NAMBA is extremely slim.

Unfortunately or fortunately, both organizations goal is to get people to the pond to race boats. It isn't necessarily to accommodate the whim of every model boater. No offense intended to Todd. That turbine is awesome. It's the old "there's too many classes!" argument. Been around as long as I've been racing. Theory being.............get guys focused on fewer classes = heats.

It may well be that both NAMBA and IMPBA insurance policies specifically include or exclude certain motor types. I don't really know. I'm told that the NAMBA policy is that specific. However, what is or is NOT allowed needs to be in the rule book that you send to your members.

[SJFE]

Strikes me as kind of a recurring theme when I see safety given as a reason to not allow something new into racing. I remember reading threads just like this about 6 or 7 years ago when lipo batteries came widely available for use in boats. There was talk of fires, explosions and the end of the world as we know it cost wise. Seems it all worked out. just like this will I'm sure.

[RaceMechaniX]

Todd,

I highly suggest you pick up an AMA membership to cover you in case something does happen. I believe this covers you to some extent. I have had similar people ask about increasing the cell limits to 14S or running 125cc engines. It all comes down to insurance coverage and the premiums we pay as organizations.

Tyler

[T.S.Davis]

Strikes me as kind of a recurring theme when I see safety given as a reason to not allow something new into racing. I remember reading threads just like this about 6 or 7 years ago when lipo batteries came widely available for use in boats. There was talk of fires, explosions and the end of the world as we know it cost wise. Seems it all worked out. just like this will I'm sure.

Seems like yesterday to me. There were some that believed that we would not be insured if we didn't run Nimh. They refused to read the rule book. There were guys that left the hobby over LiPo.

[JUICE]

There are no rules for turbine engines in IMPBA. It clearly states nitro and gasoline and there are voltage limits for FE in the rule book. There would have to be rules written and passed by the BOD. I think the chances are slim at best since there are not a lot of these boats out there. To get something in the books for a small few I believe just won't happen. I know that is not what you wanted to hear but those are the facts.

[photohoward1]

Juice, What if a guy shows up with an actual diesel? Would they not be covered? Just surmising here.
There are no rules for turbine engines in IMPBA. It clearly states nitro and gasoline and there are voltage limits for FE in the rule book. There would have to be rules written and passed by the BOD. I think the chances are slim at best since there are not a lot of these boats out there. To get something in the books for a small few I believe just won't happen. I know that is not what you wanted to hear but those are the facts.

[photohoward1]

One more thing.. Guys run Coleman Fuel? This is not Nitro or Gasoline. I'm not arguing, Just pointing things out. Someday if I win there lottery a Turbine would be cool.

[SJFE]

I'll add if saw introduced a turbine class I'd try an hock the farm to build one. I think more than a few guys would do them same if only for the same reason Chuck Yeager firewalled that throttle looking for the monster out there past the edge of the envelope. Some folks just wanna go as fast as possible. Me I'd wanna try it in a boat as close to scale as possible. After All offshore boats aren't out there turning laps and making speed runs on lipo. :cool2:

[JUICE]

Juice, What if a guy shows up with an actual diesel? Would they not be covered? Just surmising here.

I don't see diesel anywhere in the rule book but and I am not a nitro guy. However it does run in a glow motor. You would have to get with the Nitro Director on that. And Coleman fuel is white gasoline and is legal.

[PatrickM]

Todd,

I highly suggest you pick up an AMA membership to cover you in case something does happen. I believe this covers you to some extent. I have had similar people ask about increasing the cell limits to 14S or running 125cc engines. It all comes down to insurance coverage and the premiums we pay as organizations.

TylerA possibly useful suggestion, but keep in mind that the AMA member policy is secondary insurance. It will only cover post litigation costs that your homeowners policy doesn't.

[PatrickM]

Probably a stupid question, but how does one determine the swept cylinder volume of a turbine?

[Todd Fleury]

Housing Diameter:83 mm (3.27")
DimensionsL x W x H approx. 375mm, x 100mm x 160mm (14.8" x 3.9" x 6.3")
Total weight including gearbox:2930 g (103 oz)
Weight of accessories:650g (ECU, Valve, Gastank, Battery, Wires and Tubing) (23 oz)
Idle GG-Turbine speed50000 RPM
Maximum GG-Turbine speed:175000 RPM
Compressor Pressure Ratio2:1
GG-Turbine EGT:480- 730°C (896 - 1346 F)
Mass Flux0.14 kg/s
Idle Output Shaft Speed6000 RPM
Maximum Output Shaft Speed (depending on gearbox version)
19000- 35000 RPMEGT:300 - 360°C (572 - 680 F)
Power-shaft speed:19,000 - 22,000 RPM
Power:8 kW (11.2 hp)
Fuel:Kerosene Jet A1, PetroleumLubrication5% Synthetic Turbine Oil in Fuel
Fuel consumption at full power:260 ml/min
Fuel consumption at idle:90 ml/min
Service Interval50 hours
Drive system Custom water-cooled gearbox

[jaike5]

In order to run in an open class there has to be a class established (rules) within the organization for the boat.
Otherwise the open classes would be a free for all.:ohmy:

As stated in above posts there is classes stated weather it be mono/cat/hydro. I'm sure we are talking power plant here, and turbine falls in the open category . On another note can cats run in hydro since they run on three points ?

Cheers, Jay.

[don ferrette]

As stated in above posts there is classes stated weather it be mono/cat/hydro. I'm sure we are talking power plant here, and turbine falls in the open category . On another note can cats run in hydro since they run on three points ?

Cheers, Jay.Wrong sir. Open classes are for mixing recognized already established classes together, it is NOT a "run what ya brung anything goes" class.

[photohoward1]

Yes! So can a Tunnel.

On another note can cats run in hydro since they run on three points ?

Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

together, it is NOT a "run what ya brung anything goes" class.

WHAT! Just when I was dropping that V12 into my big mono. Back to the drawing board.:tt2:

Jay, as far as I know you can run a cat in hydro just as you described. We used to do it at the Michigan Cups. Pretty sure IMPBA is the same.

[Doug Smock]

If it's not a mono, it's a hydro.:wink:

[jaike5]

If it's not a mono, it's a hydro.:wink:

Awesome !! cool we now have two classes, 4 different sizes in each. That should make every one happy :sarcasm1:

So then I was correct it's closed open class.

I didn't see "RECOGNIZED, ALREADY ESTABLISHED CLASSES" in the rule book , my bad.

[Chilli]

We also have specialized classes. Have you read the rule book? (not being sarcastic) Mono, Cat, Outboard Tunnel, Sport Hydro, Rigger, 1/8th scale. I would think 21 FE classes would make the majority of members happy. (again, not being sarcastic)

And while we're at it, where did you folks see any definition for the Open Class in the rule book? In the IMPBA, the only reference I can find to Open is the LSG Open Offshore class which specifically states "All IMPBA legal LSG engines are permitted". So for anyone looking to run what you brung under the "Open" umbrella, I have news for you. It just isn't there on a national level. In reality, most "Open" classes are combinations of IMPBA defined classes that are permitted on the district or club level or at sanctioned races (if posted on the race flier).

[T.S.Davis]

Back in 2008 we held a race up here in MI. We knew the numbers were going to be low so we combined some classes. Called them something like Ultimate Sprint or some such nonsense. Basically we ran Q,S, and T hydro together. We ended up with a 3 boat heat. Two T rigger and Q cat. Twaits laid down a heat time of 1 minute and some change. 61 seconds I think. Spooky fast even by two lap standards. Goose bumps fast for 2008.

The record application was denied because it wasn't a real class even though the boat tech'd out.

Open is typically as defined by the host club. However, I doubt that gives us the freedom to allow plutonium power.

Although........I wonder if the insurance policy specifies no plutonium. Does it specify Lithium Polymer, Ion, Ferrite, NiMh, Nicd, LeadAcid? Or does it just say "gas, nitro, battery, but not turbine"?

Lithium Polymer and Nitro methane = perfectly safe
Turbine = certain death

[Chilli]

Although........I wonder if the insurance policy specifies no plutonium. Does it specify Lithium Polymer, Ion, Ferrite, NiMh, Nicd, Lead Acid? not turbine"?



Don't forget "Steam"

[jaike5]

You are right Mike,

we have all used the slang term of "open" when it is really T, limited by hull size and cells for electric and cc/in for the fossil burners.

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

All the insurance company cares about is that the safety rules are followed. They don't know anything about the boats and don't care what boats run in what class as long as they don't exceed the maximum length, weight, displacement, and voltage.

''Open'' has always meant any legal hull. Typically you'll see open, mono, hydro, and offshore. We ran a "unlimited" class at the Spring Nationals the last two years. That class consists of ANY legal IMPBA boat. No rules were broken.

Nobody said anything about there only being two classes. Let's not make this harder than it is.:wink:

[T.S.Davis]

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)


I can't speak for IMPBA but for NAMBA it's supposed to be that violation of the safety rules is the only way to lose coverage. We're not insured based on the heat racing rules. If that's the case then every offshore course that's unorthodox renders a whole site uninsured. Not the case of course.

This is part of what's wrong with the safety rules in my opinion. If you're only insured for certain power sources that should be in there. If it's gas/nitro/battery put it in there. Apparently there are insurance limits that have never been relayed to the membership. Makes me wonder what other requirements or limitations are in there that we're unaware of.

[T.S.Davis]

and voltage.:

Doug, did IMPBA put the max in their safety rules?

[Doug Smock]

Doug, did IMPBA put the max in their safety rules?

Yes sir. Max voltage per class that works out to be 4.23 v/cell.

[T.S.Davis]

Wait, you have max voltages for each class in the safety rules?

[Doug Smock]

Wait, you have max voltages for each class in the safety rules?
Yes sir. It keeps things simple for the tech inspectors. No math to do like the old +/- 17% rule.

[D. Newland]

We can debate what is and is not covered under NAMBA/IMPBA insurance forever. Nothing will change and no new information will be presented. The policy just isn't going to be made public.

Stay within the rule book to ensure coverage, and to ensure our insurance policy's future. I'll elaborate on that in a bit. Todd-you're just not going to find what you are looking for unless you write up a proposal and get it passed by Dist 2 and then NAMBA.

OK, please consider a different angle on this topic.

If something happens out on the pond with a boat that does not fit the rules (a 12S Mono or Todd's turbine) , NAMBA/IMPBA insurance will most likely open a claim, depending on the severity of the accident. It most certainly will open a claim if there is an attorney involved. It may or may not be covered, but a claim will be opened and investigated to see if there is coverage.

After that investigation and claim acceptance or denial, the file will move to the insurance company's Underwriting Dept.

That's when things can go downhill fast for either organization.

Underwriting will give a rectal exam to the claim file and the organization in general, then decide if they want to continue coverage. Guess what they would decide if a 12S Mono or a Turbine caused injury to somebody? Cancellation. Even if a claim was denied.

Please trust me on this. I'm not blowing smoke. I've done this sort of thing. They will consider the risk too great and drop coverage.

And, I doubt the organization will find coverage with another company either. Why? Because the claim will have to be disclosed on any new application for insurance. The new company's Underwriting Dept will give a rectal exam to the application and probably decide, "no thanks". Too much risk.

It could literally be the end of our organization. Our insurance is everything. Without it, we're nothing.

IMO, we will continue to see NAMBA making decisions and rules that tightens up our organization, all in the name of safety, which in turn keeps our insurance viable.

Lastly, I've heard and read something like, "It's OK, I have AMA insurance. I can run my 16S boat". Trust me again, if you are a NAMBA member and also have AMA and/or Homeowners insurance, you don't get to decide which insurance gets to protect you. If you hurt someone (and especially if an attorney is involved), all of your available insurances (home/renters, AMA, NAMBA, IMPBA, APBA, XYZ) will get a phone call by the plaintiffs attorney to open a claim. Go back and read what I typed above about Underwriting.

So, to recap, you may or may not have coverage, but you sure as heck will put the future of NAMBA/IMPBA's insurance coverage in jeopardy.

And, for that matter, our hobby.

So, Todd. Please get with your District to write a rule proposal. If they pass it, then it will move to NAMBA membership for a vote. If it then passes, you can run your boat. Until then, please don't run it. Or, turn in your NAMBA membership and don't run it at a NAMBA insured pond. Rely on AMA or Homeowners insurance to cover you.

[Doug Smock]

If something happens out on the pond with a boat that does not fit the rules (a 12S Mono or Todd's turbine) , NAMBA/IMPBA insurance will most likely open a claim, depending on the severity of the accident. It most certainly will open a claim if there is an attorney involved. It may or may not be covered, but a claim will be opened and investigated to see if there is coverage.

After that investigation and claim acceptance or denial, the file will move to the insurance company's Underwriting Dept.

That's when things can go downhill fast for either organization.

Underwriting will give a rectal exam to the claim file and the organization in general, then decide if they want to continue coverage. Guess what they would decide if a 12S Mono or a Turbine caused injury to somebody? Cancellation. Even if a claim was denied.

Please trust me on this. I'm not blowing smoke. I've done this sort of thing. They will consider the risk too great and drop coverage.

And, I doubt the organization will find coverage with another company either. Why? Because the claim will have to be disclosed on any new application for insurance. The new company's Underwriting Dept will give a rectal exam to the application and probably decide, "no thanks". Too much risk.

It could literally be the end of our organization. Our insurance is everything. Without it, we're nothing.


Again you hit the nail squarely on the head. Great post.

[Chilli]

You are right Mike,

we have all used the slang term of "open" when it is really T, limited by hull size and cells for electric and cc/in for the fossil burners.

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

Cheers, Jay.

I'll admit I don't have a clue how the insurance works for either organization and the AMA which I am a member of also. I welcome anyone who wants to shake things up to voice their opinions here but then follow though via the appropriate channels. There are people here that can guide you.

As for turbines, I personally think the would be very cool to see them at SAW events. My only concern safety wise is the ability to slow down when coming off the throttle. Are most of these boats direct drive? Do they have a clutch or do you have to wait for the motor to spool down?

Rock on!!

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, I follow. I really do.

However, what NAMBA must do (not should) is relay to it's members any limitations or requirements that will jeopardize their coverage.

They advertise the coverage and spell out in the rule book the things that will cause cancellation. Now by your description......we have to also follow all of rules or the resulting lawyer dance will cause a loss of coverage for the entire organization.

Sooooo....the electric sections describe an offshore course. Failure to run that course coupled with an accident and the lawyers will gobble it up. If the whole book applies then your WW race is was risky with it's illegal offshore course. Especially with the far buoy being anywhere near the opposing shore.

Silly yes but where do we draw the line? Where the book tells us the line is (safety rules) or............................? I guess where ever Robert decides the line is. Because we all know that the policy doesn't get into which motors are approved and which aren't. Which cell chemistry is and isn't approved. No way.

As a consumer, if I went out and bought insurance for myself, I would want to know what the limitations were so that I could stay covered. The provider would tell me. Likely in writing. What I did though was buy my insurance from NAMBA. NAMBA told me how to stay protected. In writing just like I would expect............... accept they left out some stuff.

I'll let you decide what the term is for that kind of dishonesty.

[PatrickM]

I'll let you decide what the term is for that kind of dishonesty. This type of "dishonesty" as you describe it, is called affordable insurance. Would you rather pay $1000 per year for your IMPBA or NAMBA membership/insurance and receive a better defined rule set and policy? Personally, I would rather live with what we are offered (and the massive efforts that have gone into providing what we have) than pay the price for this kind of nit picking.

[T.S.Davis]

The limitations keep the price down. Yep. Get that.

Providing a product that is different than as than your documentation claims is fraud.

[jaike5]

Oh Deeer.....

Example of legal wrangling:
Look a head on the road. now does that mean there is a head on the road ( not human), or look a head on the road to see what's coming.

Cheers, Jay.

[Doby]

Oh Deeer.....

Example of legal wrangling:
Look a head on the road. now does that mean there is a head on the road ( not human), or look a head on the road to see what's coming.

Cheers, Jay.


Dumb Kanadian...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ahead

[PatrickM]

The limitations keep the price down. Yep. Get that. Precisely.
The national organizations are using very sound judgment by not publishing the actual policy wording. I can't begin to imagine how some wannabe lawyers would misconstrue, warp, twist and attempt to mislead others with their own interpretations of the policy, it's implications and realities as applied to RC boating.



Providing a product that is different than as than your documentation claims is fraud.
See above.

[T.S.Davis]

How can anyone be okay with this? We buy insurance from NAMBA. "Without it we have nothing" somebody said that.

Guy buys car insurance. Pays X number of dollars. Has an accident turning left at a light. Minor thing.

Insurance company cancels his insurance.

"Why was my insurance cancelled?"
"You made a left turn"
"Left turn? What do you mean?"
"You can't make left turns"

Guy digs up his paperwork to see what he bought. (In our case the rule book) Nothing in there. Calls again.

"None of my paperwork says anything about left turns"
"Oh it's not in there"
"Why can't I turn left then?"
"I just decided. It's on our copy"
"Would have been handy information. Why didn't you put it on my copy?"
"We keep the price down by not telling you what's covered"
"Guess I got screwed"
"No, you got what you paid for"

For the record, I absolutely do not care if Todd's boat ever runs. Sorry Todd.

What I do care about is the fact that our rule book tells us how to stay protected and we're being told those parameters aren't sufficient. If the policy mandates total compliance with the rule book that's just grand..........then relay that to the customer (that's us).

If it's not in there then we have leadership making the call.

It's turbines today. Next it may be something that effects everyone. How about no more modified props. Thinning the blades makes them prone to failure. Can't risk throwing a blade.

[Peter A]

Problem with insurance companies is like banks they are a law unto them selves. Just ask all those affected by the Christchurch earthquakes (NZ). Paid their premiums for years. Four years plus later some (many) are still waiting for claims to be settled.
We (NZMPBA) have had to work through a similar issue, as President I raised it and we have had to make sure that all club days are sanctioned as well as regattas as the policy covered sanctioned events (basically).

[photohoward1]

What is the Cell Limit for IMPBA? I know in NAMBA it's 10"s.....is there a Mah limit in each organization? I really want to keep my club in check....

[Doby]

2 different organizations= stupidity.

Merge.... and move on to greater things...

[keithbradley]

What is the Cell Limit for IMPBA? I know in NAMBA it's 10"s.....is there a Mah limit in each organization? I really want to keep my club in check....

It's 10s.
So I guess based on Doug P's earlier suggestion of "hand in your NAMBA card and run elsewhere if you want to run a turbine" the same would apply to anyone that wanted to run 12s on their own time.
Since HV lipos have been banned from NAMBA because they have the capacity to be charged to a higher voltage, it would only be logical that 12s controllers be outlawed as well.

I know Terry can be a little over the top, but I think there is a lot of merit to what he saying.

[Doby]

So the rule books are derived from the insurance policies?????

Is that the general tone that I'm hearing??

[T.S.Davis]

Think that was Dave that told Todd to turn in his card.

The rule book doesn't tell you "don't run 12s". It should but it's not in there. There's a class max of 10s but the class rules aren't mentioned as a basis for loss of insurance in the safety rules.

However, it apparently doesn't matter if it's in there.

NAMBA is 12k for T.

[T.S.Davis]

So the rule books are derived from the insurance policies?????


The rules are (at least for safety) what ever leadership says they are. That "could" be okay. They're trying to protect the organization from exposure, lawsuits, and the potential loss of coverage for everyone. Sensible and they were elected to the position. Dave's description of how it would go is likely spot on.

BUT it's probably a good idea to tell the membership what those rules are so that the they don't screw up the works.

If Todd didn't know people he would have just read the book and stayed within the guidelines and thought that in so doing was protected.

[ls1fst98]

so does all this mean i wouldnt be able to run my 12s hpr at my club lake or we could potentially lose our insurance??

this thoroughly confused me. but i see where someone is coming from. it doesnt specifically say no turbines, but it doesnt say you can run a turbine.

[Doug Smock]

What is the Cell Limit for IMPBA? I know in NAMBA it's 10"s.....is there a Mah limit in each organization? I really want to keep my club in check....

There is no mAh limit in the IMPBA.

[T.S.Davis]

so does all this mean i wouldnt be able to run my 12s hpr at my club lake or we could potentially lose our insurance??

Yes, that's what I'm being told. Don't look for the text trail. It's not there.

[mickieb49]

How on earth do the Germans get the insurance coverage to run their turbines? I understand the gos and no goes of the insurance battles, whats covered and whats not.

I have a Turbine, and have been looking around to get insurance for myself, and because the AMBPBA here in Australia does not allow Turbines to run on any of their sanctioned dams, I have been trying to find another I can run it on, so not to have insurance conflicts, or put my organisation in a difficult spot.. Sounds stupid doesn't it.
I think it just comes down to respect for everyone else who loves their boats, my choice to go out and buy what is basically going to be a shelf queen ( out on sunny days) should not jeopardise my fellow boaters .
Change the insurance policies to include them.....yes please.
Do I think it's going to happen? .........More than likely Not.
Regards Mick

[jaike5]

When you over ride the rules with a race flyer and there is no issues its all good, until an accident claim is put forth. Then you can quote doby and say its in freedictionary.com while they rip you a new cavity. Words and where they are placed in a sentence can change the meaning of a paragraph or sections in that paragraph, this is what lawyers do.

doby is not a Canadian, please don't judge the rest of our country by him !!

Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

Sometimes it's like trying to pee up a rope.:blink:

[T.S.Davis]

Jay, your missunderstanding. Or maybe I was missleading.

Open classes can be a combination of "classes".

The problem really is that the NAMBA rule book has a section that tells us that if you violate the safety rules you are not covered by does not say that all boats must fit a class or they are not covered.

I'm told that it's obviously that way and common sense. It's a lawyer slam dunk when something goes wrong but there is no budging on it. The rule book won't be updated to include this simple line of text.

[Jeff]

Gee Todd, I wonder if a boy scout showed up with a rubber band powered boat the hysteria card would be played equally because it isn't a legal power source? Rules they say... so if a guy shows up at the pond with a 34 inch mono on 4s you are going to tell him he can't run it, it is illegal and he needs to put 6s into it before he can run it on the water?

[PatrickM]

How on earth do the Germans get the insurance coverage to run their turbines? I understand the gos and no goes of the insurance battles, whats covered and whats not.The German legal system doesn't work the same way as the systems in the US or Oz.

As an example, Bernie Ecclestone of Formula 1 just bought his way out of a bribery case.... he paid a cool $100 million to the German government and was allowed to walk without admitting guilt. The guy who accepted the bribe pled guilty, was fined and did time.

I don't know know how their insurance system is set up, but I'd be willing to bet that their attorneys are not as lawsuit happy as the US ambulance chasers. Maybe massive liability policies are simply not required.

[keithbradley]

Who is making all of these insurance claims and why are all these lawyers getting involved? Are we talking about things that have actually happened or just speculating?
If you do something that is specifically not covered under an insurance policy, you're just not covered. That's it. I don't understand why some of you are trying to make this out to be more than it is. Unless you are committing some type of insurance FRAUD, it's a fairly straight-forward process.

I also will go as far as to say "turn in your NAMBA card if you want to run that boat" is ridiculous. If insurance doesn't cover running turbine powered craft (which is only speculation at this point), the OP simply would not be covered when running it on his own time. To suggest that would put a club or organization in any sort of jeopardy is silly. My health insurance doesn't cover suicide attempts. That doesn't mean that if I attempt suicide, everyone in my workplace will lose coverage. It just means they wouldn't cover my bills.

Insurance companies will insure you for ONE REASON. Because it's a money-making venture. When they believe that it's not, they won't insure you any more.
The only way that you could make a case about possibly losing insurance if someone ran a turbine would be if they ARE covered. If they're not covered, there's nothing for the insurance company to lose.

[Doug Smock]

If an illegal boat (a boat not recognized by the org.) was allowed to run on an insured site THE SITE HAS NO COVERAGE, THE CLUB HAS NO COVERAGE, THE LAND OWNER HAS NO COVERAGE, there is no insurance coverage. Period.
Let there be an accident in this case you have a whole new set of problems. Who pays? And what's that attorney going to cost the org. Neither NAMBA or the IMPBA are rolling in dough.

The bottom line is if the organizations rules aren't followed on an insured site there is no insurance coverage. A land owner, municipality, etc. will tell you and your organization to go pound sand if you aren't insured.

On your own time, on your own site, run whatever you'd like.

[keithbradley]

Who pays?
Who pays what? If someone runs his turbine on his own, and he crashes into a canoe full precious collectables, he will not be insured and he will be liable for any damages he causes. That has nothing to do with NAMBA, IMPBA, or any other organization.

The bottom line is if the organizations rules aren't followed on an insured site there is no insurance coverage.
On your own time, on your own site, run whatever you'd like.

Agreed. If someone runs an illegal boat at an event (or outside an event), he will not be covered if something should happen. However if the OP wants to run his boat outside an event, on his own time, that's 100% up to him and it's his liability. I don't know why he would be asked to turn in his NAMBA card.

[ls1fst98]

Is the general idea then that if you build a boat tgat doesn't fit into a NAMBA class you can not run it at a NAMBA club lake?

[Doug Smock]

Who pays what? If someone runs his turbine on his own, and he crashes into a canoe full precious collectables, he will not be insured and he will be liable for any damages he causes. That has nothing to do with NAMBA, IMPBA, or any other organization.

I give up, you're right. I'm sure the attorneys would stop at the turbine owner. An organization that used the pond or the land owner would never be contacted. There couldn't possibly be cost to them. What was I thinking, must be the drugs.:hug1: LOL

[Doug Smock]

Is the general idea then that if you build a boat tgat doesn't fit into a NAMBA class you can not run it at a NAMBA club lake?

That's right. Not without putting the site, therefore, the club (NAMBA), in jeopardy.

[keithbradley]

I give up, you're right. I'm sure the attorneys would stop at the turbine owner. An organization that used the pond or the land owner would never be contacted. There couldn't possibly be cost to them. What was I thinking, must be the drugs. LOL

Must be.
If the boy scouts had used the lake the weekend before, I don't think the scout leader has anything to worry about.

You can come up with a million unlikely hypotheticals but an organization that used the lake at a different time would not be liable. If you think they are, exactly when would this term of liability end?
If I go run a 12s boat at Thread Lake this weekend, when is it ok to hold an event there again? A month? A year? 10 years? Ever?

[Doug Smock]

Sometimes it's like trying to pee up a rope.:blink:

:stupid: :doh:

[Doby]

I peed up a rope once...but then again, I defy gravity all the time...

[jaike5]

Jay, your missunderstanding. Or maybe I was missleading.

Open classes can be a combination of "classes".

The problem really is that the NAMBA rule book has a section that tells us that if you violate the safety rules you are not covered by does not say that all boats must fit a class or they are not covered.

I'm told that it's obviously that way and common sense. It's a lawyer slam dunk when something goes wrong but there is no budging on it. The rule book won't be updated to include this simple line of text.

Terry I think your mixed up. I think the turbine was for saw not roundy round, soooo turbine falls in T which is any motor within the parameters of displacement for the fossil burners , and voltage/cells for ampeaters. hull size for both.
Sorry no V8's for your T-mono. Common sense is not all that common !

Doug... pissing up a rope... where did you get that one? or did you mean pissing into the wind.

IMO turbine is a go! So typical to hold someone back who is a head of the curve.

I agree with doby , merge both factions....... Shat, did I just say that!!!



Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

Todd,
We are having a BOD meeting next month. I'll see if we can get something on the agenda for you as promised.
It would be cool to see these run for records.

This doesn't sound like someone that is trying to hold someone back.:wink:

But what am I doing? This kind of thing should be left up to the resident experts that have all the answers.

Better check the T class rules you are referring to Jay.:wink:

Later fellas. :tiphat:

[Doby]

T class turbine:confused1::blink:

[T.S.Davis]

Must be.
If the boy scouts had used the lake the weekend before, I don't think the scout leader has anything to worry about.

You can come up with a million unlikely hypotheticals but an organization that used the lake at a different time would not be liable. If you think they are, exactly when would this term of liability end?
If I go run a 12s boat at Thread Lake this weekend, when is it ok to hold an event there again? A month? A year? 10 years? Ever?

Keith, in a suit everyone that has a two pennies to rub together gets named and has to defend themselves. If there is a lake management association they get named. Then some will be eliminated through the process. Still have to defend yourself out of the suit. Seen it after a building fire. Everyone that built the building got named.

Here's the real risk.

Guy buys a big boat and plans to run 12s. He's not a complete idiot and recognizes these buggers are dangerous. So he seeks out some additional insurance coverage. Finds NAMBA has good insurance. Reads the book. Gets to the end of the safety section of the book where it tells him how to maintain coverage. He stops reading. The class rules don't matter to him because he isn't trying to race it. So who cares? The book doesn't say "must be a NAMBA class boat to maintain coverage" so he figures he's good.

To say "well, common sense would tell you that" doesn't mean anything in court. Remember the women that poured hot coffee in her crotch?

So he goes out and runs his boat and has some mishap. Good news (he figures) and tells the recipient of the mishap that he has good insurance. Then the claim goes in.................and it's declined. Now his home owners will pick it up right? Seems reasonable. Accept they don't want to foot the bill all alone. Why should they? "He has additional coverage" Accept that the coverage that was dropped. Unfortunately the reason for it being dropped can't be tracked back to section and verse from the book. Time is ticking by while each entity denies the claims. The injured is covering the costs and is starting to get pissed because he realizes the only fix will be through the courts. The suit will now escalate into something stupid. Medical costs will turn into pain, suffering, mental distress.

If Dave is still reading, this sound close?

Soooooo......now we'll have the injured person with a lawyer because nobody wants to pay, the guy with the boats lawyer (same reason), the homeowners insurance with lawyer, NAMBA's insurance underwriter with a lawyer and likely NAMBA would need a lawyer.

All of that cost money. NAMBA will lose the suit because there is a gaping whole in the text. NAMBA will not be able to get insurance following the mess because nobody will underwrite them.

It wont satisfy Todds desire to run his boat but to protect NAMBA there only needs to be a simple line of text added to the safety rules.

Running boats and/or setups that do not fit a NAMBA legal class will cause a loss of insurance coverage.

This would drop NAMBA's exposure down considerably. That would fix the 12s exposure too. Soooo simple. Why they're so obtuse on this is a mystery to me. I can only assume that they enjoy having the turbine debate about every three years.

[PatrickM]

The NAMBA board of directors is the only group that has the power to change the rule book regarding safety and insurance issues. Your time would be better spent lobbying the BOD members rather than blowing smoke on a forum.
On the other hand, grandstanding can have its benefits amongst ones peers..........:laugh:

[Doby]

Just to be literal, if safety dictates insurance coverage, then this was a major issue at the Nats this year...

A. GENERAL SAFETY REGULATIONS
1. NAMBA members must have their NAMBA numbers on their boats and their backs
for easy identification. Minimum number sizes will be 1-1/2” on the back and 1” on
the boat, except where noted in specific class rules. R/C Combat ships do not require
numbers on boats or members.

Didn't see to many boats or NAMBA members that followed this...now, the way most people drive (myself included), the boats could be considered as "Combat" ships.:scared:

12. All rules, laws, ordinances, and regulations of any federal, state, county, and/or
municipality will be observed at all times.

Ummmm...does anyone actually check this...can this actually be verified??? Or is this just a catch all phrase to get out of any coverage is something happens. I'd love to see the documentation review of this requirement that happens before every NAMBA race.:blink: I'm pretty sure that there are some pretty funky laws/ordinances in place that no-one knows about.

Just to say in all seriousness though, This years FE Nats was probably one of the safest races I've ever been at. Kudos to the MMEU gang.

But would coverage have been nullified for the above???

[Jeff]

Here is another scenario, guy has a rc floatplane. Goes to lake and flies it, not worried about all the expensive houses and boats cause he has ama insurance. Has a mishap. Rich guy finds out he is a namba member, guess what.... they get named. Namba insurance has to fight claim... world comes to end...namba gets non-renued. How is that any different?

[Peter A]

What was the original question? Oh yeah some one was keen to see if they could set a record for a turbine powered boat, (which are way cool). Sad that it all comes down to arguments about insurance, even as valid as it is.

"...send lawyers, guns and money"

I like that song, and Roland the thompson gunner. :rules::flashfire::help::doh:

[T.S.Davis]

The NAMBA board of directors is the only group that has the power to change the rule book regarding safety and insurance issues. Your time would be better spent lobbying the BOD members rather than blowing smoke on a forum.
On the other hand, grandstanding can have its benefits amongst ones peers..........:laugh:

Really Patrick? My very best friend is on the BOD and I've been arguing with Al for two days.

Grand standing. That's a new one. It will stick with me though. Thanks.

[Todd Fleury]

Heard from Al on another forum. To alleviate most of the issue, I will not be renewing my membership to NAMBA. As Dave put it, if I want to run my boat, turn in my NAMBA card. I thought NAMBA was about bringing boaters together, but I have been mistaken.

[jaike5]

Todd,
maybe you can hold off on that decision to see if the BOD ( experts ) can work this out.
Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

Well, after about 72,000 words of text between Al and I ........I think I understand now. Man has the patience of a saint.

An analogy is in order.

Say you need car insurance since I used that before. You call the insurance company and they'll want to know what your driving. You can't tell them "it doesn't matter, I'm going to obey the law" (safety rules in our case). They want to know what they're potential exposure is. The rate will vary based on the vehicle. If you're driving a Honda Prius the price is very different than if you're driving a Ferrari 458. You're still going to obey the law with both cars (safety rules again) but the potential for catastrophic error is a wee bit higher with the Ferrari.

In NAMBA's case they asked for insurance and told the underwriter basically.......we run this, this, these, and those (I think there's 4 types) up to "X" amount of power, size, etc. Took it right out of our rule book. So the insurance is written to insure what the organization said we were going to do. Even if somebody took the time to develop a turbine class, NAMBA would still have to change the policy to include them which may drive the price to the moon. Or worse make the organization un-insurable. Not because turbines are going to kill us all but because the insurance company might feel there is higher inherent risk.

NAMBA doesn't feel it should have to spell all that out. The safety rules are there to remind us of how not to hurt ourselves. They aren't the only rules though.

I'm sure that IMPBA is similar.

Gonna post this over on IW too.

[Rookieboater]

Todd,
As in the e-mail I sent you earlier in the year and the conversation that took place about your Turbine... It is not covered under our insurance. Its not a rule I made up. If you want it covered and to be made a NAMBA recognized power plant there are procedures you can take to start it moving forward. When that happens and it gets passed it probably still WON'T be insurable. Our insurance company does not want to insure them.

Terry,
I appreciate your enthusiasm for finding gaping holes in our rule book as you interpret it. The basic rule book was written 40 years ago and added upon almost every single year. Somethings can get redundant and others just completely missed. I did not see or hear about this being a possible problem until last night. The people that read and interpreted it 20 years ago see it differently than we do now. I can see where you can come up with your version and I see it completely differently. I will forward your concern to the BOD and see if we can add something that closes the loop on the safety section vs racing section. Maybe you can forward me a revised rule that would close this gap. Lets get this taken care of.

Thanks,
Robert Holland

[Rookieboater]

Heard from Al on another forum. To alleviate most of the issue, I will not be renewing my membership to NAMBA. As Dave put it, if I want to run my boat, turn in my NAMBA card. I thought NAMBA was about bringing boaters together, but I have been mistaken.


Todd,
NAMBA is about furthering model boating. How is your action taken furthering model boating? I talked with you and sent you and email letting you know our insurance does not cover your turbine. Now the rule book may not expressly spell that out for you as it does me but you were informed many months ago that it is just not covered. Now here we are discussing this issue on at least two forums because you did not like the answer. How is that promoting model boating? One of the task that the BOD is burden with is protecting the masses and making sure we have insurances in place. If you feel the need to run your turbine while toting your NAMBA card around then maybe it best that you do not renew. If you want to become part of the solution then you should renew. I would you rather renew and help NAMBA understand turbines and how they can fit in our future. When all of that is spelled out and rules put in place or proposed then NAMBA can look into insurance coverage. To be honest I doubt we can find any carrier to cover at an expense suitable for all members.

Robert Holland

[kevinpratt823]

An interesting read for me as an "outsider", no clubs for me to run in around here. I do however have a couple thoughts. There has been talk about changing the policy, such as

"Running boats and/or setups that do not fit a NAMBA legal class will cause a loss of insurance coverage".

I think the wording could be better than "loss of coverage" as that implies termination of policy. Perhaps something more on the lines of "Any boats not falling within the stated class guidelines will be the sole responsibility and liability of the owner/operator and will not be covered under this policy". I know that kind of leaves it up to the property owners to allow or not, but it at least protects the organization and insurance co.

Also, has it occurred to anybody that there are many clubs flying airplanes, including those enormous jets, capable of ludicrous speeds that most of our boats probably don't even compare to, covering enormous ammounts of ground, with volatile fuel and components, over peoples heads, with the potential to leave the controlled area and cause considerable harm and damage upon malfunction, and a much greater liability I would imagine. Perhaps it would be worth looking into what they are doing for insurance. I understand it may just boil down to a cost thing, and they obviously may have more members to offset a higher cost if that's the case, but I just thought I'd throw that out there, as I don't think a turbine boat is nearly as dangerous as that stuff. It might be worth reaching out to those guys if anybody is that serious about bringing the turbine boats into the equation.

Plenty of videos from this jet club in Florida, and IMO this would be far more of a liability than a turbine boathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6UWqIGC4JA

[T.S.Davis]

My new found understanding is that it isn't necessarily the "class" definitions but more the various power sources.

You can put 6s in a 34" boat and it's a legal Q boat.
You can put 4s in a 36" boat and it's also a legal Q boat.
You can put 37 volts nominal in a 20" boat and it's a T boat. You're legal but yer a moron.
You can put 3.7 volts in a 59.9" boat and it's a T boat. Again legal but yer a moron.

If this is confusing to any of you go back and read it again.

The key where the insurance company is concerned is the maximum power.

With nitro and gas it's the maximum displacement.

They don't care about our 65% sport transom rule or our 34" P limitation. This is why it may not be a grand idea to just say "follow class rules or else"

All they care about is the power output, size, and weight.

So maybe possibly perhaps we just need something that makes it clear to the average human that those power limitations aren't simply class structure but are in fact what is insured.

[keithbradley]

My new found understanding is that it isn't necessarily the "class" definitions but more the various power sources.

You can put 6s in a 34" boat and it's a legal Q boat.
You can put 4s in a 36" boat and it's also a legal Q boat.
You can put 37 volts nominal in a 20" boat and it's a T boat. You're legal but yer a moron.
You can put 3.7 volts in a 59.9" boat and it's a T boat. Again legal but yer a moron.

If this is confusing to any of you go back and read it again.

The key where the insurance company is concerned is the maximum power.

With nitro and gas it's the maximum displacement.

They don't care about our 65% sport transom rule or our 34" P limitation. This is why it may not be a grand idea to just say "follow class rules or else"

All they care about is the power output, size, and weight.

So maybe possibly perhaps we just need something that makes it clear to the average human that those power limitations aren't simply class structure but are in fact what is insured.

Terry,

The way I read the rules, there is no minimum hull length requirement for each class, but there is a minimum voltage listed, which means 3.7v in a 59" boat would NOT be a legal T cat. I know this is not the essence of your post, I didn't miss your point. I'm simply mentioning this for anyone who may read your post and try to apply it to competition. If you ran a Q-mono and ran the fastest laps with ANY mono, you wouldn't automatically get the Q, S, and T records, correct?

I understand that every little detail of each class may not be a concern in regards to insurance. However, if the OP is being asked to "Turn in his NAMBA card" if he wants to run his turbine boat (It was implied that he needs to do this regardless of where he runs it), shouldn't the same rule apply to anyone who runs a boat that does not fit into the other key parameters (power system, hull length, weight, etc.). There are members that run boats longer than 60", heavier than 25lbs., and equipped with higher voltages than 10s. They don't run them at NAMBA or IMPBA events, they do it on their own time. It's completely reasonable to consider them NOT covered while doing this, but do they have to turn in their NAMBA cards as well?

I'm really not trying to stir the pot here, but I see where some finger pointing, whining, complaining, making accusations, etc. will be inevitable at some point if this is not addressed. What happens when "Guy A" wins a race, sets a record, etc. and "Guy B" says "Hey! That guy runs 12s boats/boats over 60"/turbine boats. He is therefor not a legal NAMBA member and not eligible."?

[T.S.Davis]

ack! Brain Fart. Forgot there were minimum voltages.

[T.S.Davis]

Looked it up. There's a difference between organizations too. NAMBA has no minimum length where as IMPBA does.

4s in a 27" mono is legal P NAMBA boat
4s in a 27" mono has no place in IMPBA

Interesting that IMPBA allows a 2s rigger to be 60".

[keithbradley]

Looked it up. There's a difference between organizations too. NAMBA has no minimum length where as IMPBA does.

4s in a 27" mono is legal P NAMBA boat
4s in a 27" mono has no place in IMPBA

Interesting that IMPBA allows a 2s rigger to be 60".

Where did you see that? This is from the IMPBA electric section:

N Up to 27"
P Up to 34"
Q Up to 40"
S Up to 50"
T Up to 60"

The only minimums I see are regarding sport hydro. That doesn't make sense to me but I recall there being some special rules added to sport hydro at one point as a result of a specific case. It was discussed here before and I think you were a main contributor in knowing why the rules were that way, but I don't remember what the reasoning was. Does that ring a bell to you?

[Doby]

If I read my homeowners policy, it goes into GREAT detail as to what's covered and what's not...very little if any grey areas.

Might be time to update both organizations policies if required.

[Doug Smock]

Interesting that IMPBA allows a 2s rigger to be 60".

That is interesting, never made sense to me that hydros didn't have similar length restrictions. We'd have to ask Randall & Co. about that.

[T.S.Davis]

I was surprised too. Might harken back to the Reesor days. Maybe he was thinking of building one. Who knows.

[T.S.Davis]

Todd,
Now here we are discussing this issue on at least two forums because you did not like the answer.


Robert, I don't want to speak for Todd but I think his inquiry was more of a quest to see if/how we could get it done. At first. Frustration set in and it spiraled a bit. Pretty sure that was his intent though.

The other thread on IW was started by somebody else.

[Rookieboater]

2. HULL LENGTH MEASUREMENTS
a) Hulls in each class will not exceed the length given in the following table:
Class Maximum
M-2 27”
N-1 N/A
N-2 27”
P-Limited 34”
P 34”
Q 40”
S 60”
T 60”
b) See Rule A.4 in this section for measurement guidelines.

NAMBA has minimum lengths for hulls. Section 28 2.a Specialty classes may vary a bit.

Robert Holland

[T.S.Davis]

Um....so as was asked earlier, if someone puts 6s in a 30" boat is he not insured?

If that's so we screwed up on the length table.

[Chilli]

Man it's going to be a long winter..LOL

I doubt our insurance specifies all the boat classes in writing. If so, every time we had a class change we would have to redo the policy. It's a safe bet maximum voltages and sizes are but then again, I've never seen it.

I saw a reference in one of these threads (OSE or IW) asking why the AMA can insure turbines and the boating organizations have chosen (at this point) not to. It's probably due to the fact that the AMA has over 150,000 members. I have no idea what the current membership is in the IMPBA and NAMBA but I think it's safe to assume it's no where near these numbers. For those that want to get turbines into the IMPBA and Namba, fight the good fight and don't give up.

[Doug Smock]

NAMBA has minimum lengths for hulls.

I was interested in this but can't find a reference in the rule book.:confused1:


Chili, As you probably guessed, NAMBA and the IMPBA combined wouldn't make a good boil on the AMA's butt.:laugh:

I wonder how many of the AMA members running turbines would put one in a boat if they had a place to run it?

[T.S.Davis]

I wonder if AMA would be interested in turbine hydro...........PLANE. We just don't have purchasing power to get it done.

I can't find it either Doug. I found minimum volts but not lengths The way I read it you could put 4s in a T mono but not the 1s like I suggested. If you put 6s in a 34" mono for the fun of it you're screwed.

I think the answer to my question is that nobody knows absolutely for sure. Like Chilli, I doubt the insurance company knows a thing about our individual class structures. They just know about the max available power for each power source. Although, I suppose if there was an accident it would get dissected by some weeny lawyer. "You put 6s in a P sized boat?????"

Maybe Robert will stop back by.

[Chilli]

Although, I suppose if there was an accident it would get dissected by some weeny lawyer. "You put 6s in a P sized boat?????"

Maybe Robert will stop back by.

I would say you are absolutely correct..... and you can throw in many of the safety rules I see ignored at sanctioned events.

[Rookieboater]

I was interested in this but can't find a reference in the rule book.:confused1:


Chili, As you probably guessed, NAMBA and the IMPBA combined wouldn't make a good boil on the AMA's butt.:laugh:

I wonder how many of the AMA members running turbines would put one in a boat if they had a place to run it?



NAMBA does not have minimum lengths for a specific power size unless it is specifically listed in the Specialty Class Hull rules. I did not review those sections.

Robert Holland

[Jeff]

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?40236-Platinum-Princess&highlight=
Why wasn't the sky is falling card played here? Was because of geographical location?

[Chilli]

Probably because neither NAMBA or IMPBA were not mentioned in the thread. Just a guy building a very cool boat.

[siberianhusky]

Since this is based on American organizations and people have brought the AMA into it.
In regards to the AMA and turbines you have to go through the process of getting a turbine waiver before you can fly one, there are even rules regarding how much you MUST fly to keep that waiver.
http://www.btemodels.com/r54waiver.html
You can read about what you need to do at the above link.
It's not as simple as plunk your money down and go fly your jet.
LOL boaters can't even agree on P-spec or Ltd motor rules too, how on earth would they get it together to implement a turbine waiver system similar to the AMA?
Then the next issue is are there enough people running turbines to make it worth while for the organizations to even bother? Jump through all the hoops for what? Maybe a handful of people with turbines?
Don't get me wrong I think turbines are awesome, just a very very small percentage of the entire boating hobby.