NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

[D. Newland]

To not clog up Peterson's post, I want to start a fresh one. Probably should be in the NAMBA/IMPBA section, but can we roll with it here for a bit, please?

Peterson's thread (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?48170-Looking-for-motor-ideas)

More in a minute...

[D. Newland]

When we drafted P-Ltd in 2009/2010, I really thought it would last 3 years before it needed a major rule overhaul. Every year, Terry would mention (still mentions) something to the effect that motor production will soon end...

Here we are, closing the end of the 2014 racing season, and the popularity is still growing. P-Ltd Cat, in basically 2 years, dang near overtook LSH in #of entries at the Nat's. Even if every motor on the list went extinct today, I bet most have enough personal supply to run P-Ltd boats, in one form or another, for a few more years.

But, there are growing pains, too. For some. Most? Maybe. Maybe not. The internet tends to focus on the negative voice more than the positive voice. Either way, it's obviously time for a discussion. But, Terry, for the record, you can still order the original SV 27 motor! And I'll concede that you'll be right. Some day.

Take a look at these 2014 Nat's statistics. What do you see? If it didn't format correctly, check back in a minute.

....................P Ltd and P comparison at the 2014 Nationals


Class.......................Fast Time........Boat DNF’s.............Racers finishing all 4 rounds

P Mono................. 1:32.....................42%...................... ....................23%
P-Ltd Mono............1:47.................... 38%..........................................38%

P Hydro................ 1:09.....................44%...................... ....................50%
P-Ltd Hydro...........1:14.................... 25%..........................................45%

P Sport.................1:27.....................54% ..........................................15%
P-Ltd Sport............1:30....................29%...... .....................................30%

P Cat....................1:45.....................45 %...........................................20%
P-Ltd Cat...............1:54.....................44%.... ......................................19%

P Offshore........35 ½ laps for 1st place, Highest heat lap count: 12
P-Ltd Offshore..32 ¼ laps for 1st place, Highest heat lap count: 11

Boats that DNF'd/Total entries for above classes

P...........73/156 = 47% DNF
P Ltd.....107/304 = 35% DNF


It covers a lot of ground. First off, of those classes, P-Ltd fielded twice as many boats than P. It also has a lower/better DNF %. And, at least with a few of the classes, the heat times were quite close.

That is why I want to protect the P-Ltd motor list, unless a "no brainer" comes along. That, and the fact that we still have a number of guys that like it the way it is. If you introduce a new motor to the list, you in essence are telling them to start testing again and get ready to spend some more money. Some will, most won't, but all will be thinking about it...Is that fair to them? And don't forget about the guys with the RTRs...Especially the Cat's.

For those that think a more reliable motor should be on the list, how long will it take Terry to push it, burn it, then back off a hair? How much closer will he be to P speeds and times?

IMO, better you just bow out of P-Ltd and run another Power Parameter. When the entries start to fall, it will be easy to see the problem is real rather than perceived. And, P could use the entries, and some solid P setups at that.

I will keep supporting P-Ltd racing. IMO it has done more for FE than anything else. Even with a few motor replacements, it's a bargain. The hull selection is there, the speeds are adequate, and the ability to learn tuning (and more tuning) is endless.

[JimClark]

Pro boat is drastically changing their offerings so doesn't there have to be some change somewhere?
Course I don't know if, when or what they will replace them with

[PatrickM]

The lack of PB offerings will mainly affect the NAMBA and ERCU 1/10th Scale classes. Although, I'm sure it will be an unpopular option for a number of reasons, the Classic Thunder organization has been running alternate spec motors for a few years with no problems.

[JimClark]

fully aware of that Patrick ERCU only allows the 1500kv and CT allows them in one or two of their three divisions of 1/10th scale. The namba racer's out here do use the proboat motors in several classes

[PatrickM]

Must be lots of Darin fans up that way, LOL.... around these parts, the PB motors are used mainly in the 1/10ths, very few in other NAMBA classes. My point is that the PB's have readily replaceable options needing only a simple rule change. No research or debate required. That being said, someone will try to argue the point....:olleyes:

[T.S.Davis]

I'm not sure your stats are relevant Dave. You can draw more than one conclusion from them.

By the numbers, there's little difference in time. The big difference, by the numbers, is that the P limited boat will finish. So you can buy an AQ for about $80 or say a 2200kv Leopard motor that may be better but the boat wont finish and you get to run the same speed (close)..........soooooo why do we need P limited at all? There is no advantage to full P classes according to the numbers. Not faster and less likely to finish. So run all the motors together. The P limited will win by finishing as the setups are more reliable per the numbers.

The motor list currently includes only 2 motors that are still in production as far as I know. Maybe when it's one we'll discuss it.

I'll think on it Dave. Maybe I'll drop limited from my race program. I'm sure my club will be glad to be rid of me.

[ron1950]

so if dynamite keeps making the 1500 and 1800 motors great but if not and pb replacement motors are not allowed you sure killed the choises for p limited classes...aq motors are not my favorite for sure.... now, what is out there besides dropping out of p limited classes sence no motors may be available:help:

[Doby]

Yes..lets all drop P-limited classes....Lets take the most popular classes and get rid of them:blink:

Brilliant decision to grow the hobby.:hornets_nest:

Spec the can size and put a max KV rating allowed per a manufacturers spec...its not that difficult. If someone is worried about "honesty" at races, the winning motors could probably be verified somehow, and if someone gets caught cheating...then banned for life!

[darryl whitman]

OK guys , some one plz tell me what , P spec class is,
then what P Limited class is , I need to know.

[Todd Fleury]

I hope there is something that will be worked out for 1/10 scale. I only have a few Proboat motors at 1500kv left and one AQ motor that is approved for this class

[T.S.Davis]

Brilliant decision to grow the hobby.:hornets_nest:


Exactly my point.

I've thought on it. I still want to run a limited class where at least some parity can be had. I'm not certain what our club will do but I think I'm done with the P limited by the book after this season. That will be up to them as a group.

Our gang placed 4 guys in the top 10 at the nationals. They had to perform well in the limited classes to do that. So by the numbers, apparently, limited WAS for them. All but one of those 4 guys has had motors fail on them this summer. Some more than one. Again, on setups that they've run for years.

Darryl, P limited is basically 4s setups with motors from RTR boats. The RTR motors that are legal are listed in the NAMBA rule book. The debate starts over reliability/repeatability and ends with the fact that of the motors on the list there are only 2 that are still being manufactured.

Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".

[Rumdog]

I have no dog in this fight since I do not race, but it really seems that the p limited motors work well only for their intended purpose.. In rtr boats with rtr setups. They're kinda just junk, really. As much as you guys go thru them, might as well use a quality Neu of the same size/ kv range.

[Grimracer]

I don’t Race FE boats anymore and really don’t care all that much what motors end up on the list.. BUT.. I hope NAMBA and the racers don’t forget the reason this PLTD class came about.

I have never thought as this as a "beginners" class but a "like" class with "like" power systems that were easily available everyplace regardless of HULL type or MFG.. Am I wrong.. Its OK if you say have this wrong.. (I just might)

Looks like that has been working too..
I feel Doug might not happy with the numbers of guys getting into FE racing in his dist.. (I don’t blame him… I don’t blame the motors). FE might not be the second coming some have stated it is slated to be! I too see light numbers at those races in all power types.
Maybe its time for change.. maybe not.. but as long as there is a race.. we WILL push the limits of the motors WELL past there engineered specs. What happens when those "new" motors start doing the same thing as the motors we have now.. Do you REALLY think they won’t? Why spec new motors (And a prop) what ARE" you trying to avoid? O yea.. I know.. the same "Issue" we have now.
I hope however that whatever comes out of this that it continues to hold good numbers and hopefully grow too!
I say the FE guys know what’s best.. as long as its not a lack of winning that’s driving the questions but the better for the org.
Good luck and I/we support your decisions.
Grimracer

[Darin Jordan]

Just to provide some facts for this discussion, the Dynamite motors that Pro Boat had been using will NO LONGER be available. They've been discontinued.

So, as far as the rules are concerned, P-LTD has, for all intensive purposes, become "P-AquaCraft"...

Carry-On...

[DPeterson]

Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

[Grimracer]

Doug,
make them all puplic.. 12 is alot and maybe we can all learn from them..

Grim

[madmikepags]

p spec racing is great, I love the competition, but I am one of the guys who blows up motors, setups? over propping? driving style? probably all of the above and all my fault, but the fact is that if we spec 1 good quality motor you can run that 1 motor for years. Dave I know you are getting a couple of seasons from these motors but you are not the norm! you are also not the norm when it comes to racing, you and your boats are some of the best we have all seen you take lots of time with setup and testing and really know your stuff. That being said most people dont do that or dont have the time. Me myself, only race 6-8 times a year and practice 3-4 more times, that is not a lot, but I have a pretty descent fleet and do OK at big races (but not in p-ltd classes) I should drop P-ltd from my program because I don't have the time to get my setups "right". I have enough other boats to keep me busy anyway!!!!

Now a few questions? Out of curiosity can we get a manufacturer (NEU) or anyone else to build a motor to "our specs" nothing crazy but strong and reliable??? Would any of you pay $150-200 for a spec motor that would last you 5 or more years? Thats less than $50 a year. How many actual p spec "Racers" or maybe the ? should be how many p-spec "race boats" are actually out there? 100-300-500? how many were entered at the nats? 80-100? we know they are not all on this board but how could we find this out?
I am just asking questions I am not really saying that we need to change the rules, I know how hard Dave works as FE chairman and changing rules is a process.

[ray schrauwen]

I'd like to know what Tower hobbies has to do with it Doug? Sorry for my ignorance...


Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

I like Spec classes more now because I gave up on pushing the limit of speed after cooking 2 motors and esc's a couple of years ago. I just prop down now drive as best I can and hope for a bit of attrition from the guys pushing the envelope. I find it a fun class that is more relaxing than open classes.

If it comes down to 2 motors to choose from, that could become a problem but, is it a problem yet? I don't think so so why don't we wait and see what happens to Proboat in the near future?

Getting anyone's panties in a wad now isn't going to do anything but, put people off in the long run.

Long live spec classes!

That said, the guys in OZ have adopted 1P racing with motors like Leopard, TP, etc but, not NEU so much as far as I know. Even in Quebec they sort of adopted this style too and it seems to be a nice in between Scenario that does appeal to me but, not to many others in here it seems.

If people want to cut down the number of classes I wonder if 1P open classes would be the answer? Just thinking out load...:hide: By the numbers above it seems like all the extra money and equipment for 4S open classes seems almost pointless.

Eventually things will change, to what I dunno?

[madmikepags]

Ray I run everything 1P except offshore classes so the 1P is not really limiting anything. What our club did was limit the amp rating on the batteries, no more than 200 continuous amps so you can run a 40C 5000mah or a 50C 4000mah on all N2 and P classes. Basically we all run the turnigy 40C 5000's 2S pack costs $23. It's not a great way but it has kept our costs down and the competition close.

[RandyatBBY]

Motor reliability is really important. I have some 4 and 5 year old motors and they run great (55/52MPH Hydro). Frank one of the guys in my district. (that I have been trying to entice in to FE racing) He has a P LTD Sport that I set up just like my boat and he has burned up 4 or 5 motor. All were the AQ 2030kv and 1800kv. Watching this I was wondering if the quality of the motors went down? Is there such a thing besides Neu's that last now in 2014? I deal with a lot of customers that like to keep it on a budget. I also do too.

[madmikepags]

Ray I run everything 1P except offshore classes so the 1P is not really limiting anything. What our club did was limit the amp rating on the batteries, no more than 200 continuous amps so you can run a 40C 5000mah or a 50C 4000mah on all N2 and P classes. Basically we all run the turnigy 40C 5000's 2S pack costs $23. It's not a great way but it has kept our costs down and the competition close.

[D. Newland]

...Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".


...For me. I'll push a motor until it breaks. Some of you have seen me do it. More than once. Did it recently with the Proboat 1800's. Baked one of those Saturday as a matter of fact. I wanted to know how far I could push before the smoke exits the can. Found it. We'll dial back from there. Now if there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory I'll never find the edge. Motor A and motor B from the same manufacturer aren't the same. SS1 motors anyone?...

Not entirely user error, I made that clear in my post on Doug's thread, but you kind of just made my argument. I may know you better than you know yourself. If you get your hands on a better quality P-Ltd motor, your issues won't be solved until you take a close look at your mentality towards your setups, testing/tuning and racing. Come on, T. I'm just looking for a tad bit of personal accountability. That's all. Don't make me search all your threads discussing equipment you have turned crispy.

[RandyatBBY]

[QUOTE=Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis
...For me. I'll push a motor until it breaks. Some of you have seen me do it. More than once. Did it recently with the Proboat 1800's. Baked one of those Saturday as a matter of fact. I wanted to know how far I could push before the smoke exits the can. Found it. We'll dial back from there. Now if there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory I'll never find the edge. Motor A and motor B from the same manufacturer aren't the same. SS1 motors anyone?...


Not entirely user error, I made that clear in my post on Doug's thread, but you kind of just made my argument. If you get your hands on a better quality P-Ltd motor, your issues won't be solved until you take a close look at your mentality towards your setups, testing/tuning and racing. .

This is just what I was talking about. If there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory can we find a solution?

[D. Newland]

Randy-I may not be understanding your question. Can you re-phrase it?

Hey Mike-Thanks for your comments and I can appreciate your situation. Really I do.

[Darin Jordan]

Guys, let's try to be realistic about the nature of racers. We are GOING to find the limits of ANY motor that is allowed. You can put whatever artificial or real limitations you like, someone, somewhere, is going to make one fail.

I think the goal should be to have a list of approved motors or allowed motors that are:


1) Readily available
2) Not "cost prohibitive".
3) All reasonably competitive.
4) Offers KV options to allow a variety of hull-types
5) Offer reasonable reliability when used within accepted parameters


I'm not sure what more one could expect. If ALL of the motors on the list met these basic requirements, then the class will be fine. If you allow ONE motor that is a $250.00 Neu, and another that is a $30.00 Hobbywing, then I think you'll fun into problems, as the inherent quality of one would, in itself, be a competitive advantage, so I do think that overall cost is important, and I'd keep that in mind as I'm working up a list.

Pro Boat WILL have another motor offering at some point here.

As long as Pro Boat, Aquacraft, TFL, and other RTR manufactures are selling boats, there will be additional motors. However, David helped to factor that point of fact into the existing rules, by putting in the "CD's discretion " part. That would at least make it possible for another motor, not on the list, to go through a testing in competition process prior to be submitted to "management" to consider for an "approved motor list" update.

[photohoward1]

I hate spec and run it begrudgingly. I cannot suggest an AQ motor to a newby. For $80 they get frustrated at the quality. A leopard 4072 or 4080 is way more reliable than the spec approved motors. Yes more powerful but more bang for the buck. For the same cost a spec rigger with the leopard will go 60 plus all day and not break a sweat. Your LSH boat too and a DF33". Same price more reliable and more speed. The original idea was to keep the cost down. Jump to 2014 and there are better options than a 36mm motor.

[Grimracer]

I am quite sure.. as a matter of fact 100% sure.. they all have a "tolerance" associated with performance and assembly…
Truth is from the shaft dia to the coating on the windings.. to the epoxy holding the magnets.. they all have a tolerance.
So you know I am not picking on FE our Nitro motors do too.. Just imagine.. a thou out here and a thou out there and we have stacking tolerances. Piston 1/10thou out and the liner 1/10 under.. the rod .001 longer and the piston pin hole…….. you get the idea.
Same deal with FE motors. The wire coating a tick thicker the mags a tad thinner. The mags at such a gauss the shaft such a hardness.. the bearings pickled with that oil…
Not to mention.. issues that come up IN the mfg process. New people, new machines, new supplies, humidity or the lack of it.. left not right.. Im sure you understand
At the end of the day… no matter what you purchased from grills to cars.. they are all subject to “tolerance”
Yum.. grills.. that reminds me.. need to fire up the grill tonight!
Grim

[T.S.Davis]

That wont be necessary. I'm pretty open about that. I never dreamed that being open about finding the edge and sharing it with people would come back to haunt me but I guess it has. I don't race that far out to the edge but I know where it is. If a guy asks you at your pond "how much prop can I run?" Do you know where the envelope is? I do. Accept for the 2030. My knowledge base of that motor is null and void.

How do you explain the failures of the guy Randy setup to run just like his personal boat that he's got a 4 year old motor in?
Or how about these guys:
Peterson
Kewley
Siewert
Castellani
Pete Z.
Joe Kaz

Just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Fred and Tom were top 5 overall I think. Are those guys just not doing it right too? Fred lost a 2030 last month and doesn't want to buy another. What for? So he can get 4 to 6 heats out of it?

Heck, Joe has documented every single run since I've known him. He's started another book. The old one was full. So he's the opposite extreme of the way I do it......still burned one.

Pete has been working on the perfect turn fin for months. Thinner thinner thinner change the shape a little. Change it again. Different curvature. Tweak tweak tweak for a half MPH at a time. They're starting to add up too. Burnt.

Fun with numbers. We like numbers. My boats race once per month but get laps on them for practice usually twice per week. We try to get two runs in. So my boats are in the water approximately 19 runs per month. My son and I both run. We have 6 boats we race/run regularly. Lets say it's actually only 15 times a month for each boat. 15 runs x 6 boat at 7 laps average is 630 laps per month that my setups are doing each month. It's likely more because of offshore. How many guys can say they're gear runs 630 laps of limited a month? Personal accountability? I have a tad. You make it sound like I have a "burn em if you got em" approach to racing and that simply isn't the case. My boats don't bake a motor every time they hit the water Dave. You can't turn a 100 laps a month with a setup and burn up a motor every time you hit the water.

I know/knew which motors I can/could push and don't run those I can't anymore. Now nobody has a choice because there are only 2 left. One of the two I don't trust so that leaves just one motor.

[RandyatBBY]

I hate spec and run it begrudgingly. I cannot suggest an AQ motor to a newby. For $80 they get frustrated at the quality. A leopard 4072 or 4080 is way more reliable than the spec approved motors. Yes more powerful but more bang for the buck. For the same cost a spec rigger with the leopard will go 60 plus all day and not break a sweat. Your LSH boat too and a DF33". Same price more reliable and more speed. The original idea was to keep the cost down. Jump to 2014 and there are better options than a 36mm motor.

And is the quality the same from motor to motor if pushed to the max then dialed back a little? It is a $93 dollar motor. If we tried to match performance of the present list would a Leopard 3674 1900kv be about the same ?

[Darin Jordan]

Now nobody has a choice because there are only 2 left. One of the two I don't trust so that leaves just one motor.

There MAY be other options...

NAMBA Rulebook section 28.D.1.d.iii:


iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:

(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.

(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.

(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event

[Darin Jordan]

There MAY be other options...

NAMBA Rulebook section 28.D.1.d.iii:


iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:
...
(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event

... in addition... a strict interpretation of what c) actually is saying, in the context of the rule (a list of things that can be allowed by the CD, a, b, and c.), would indicate that it's also legal for a CD of the event to list the "allowed motors for the event" on a race flier.

[T.S.Davis]

Yes Darin, but b. doesn't exist.

The SSS motors that I was trying are rated differently than the AQ or PB motors.

Here's a thought..............................what if we bypass Proboat and get the motors from Dynamite?

[revoltrunner]

Darin said this earlier

Just to provide some facts for this discussion, the Dynamite motors that Pro Boat had been using will NO LONGER be available. They've been discontinued.

So, as far as the rules are concerned, P-LTD has, for all intensive purposes, become "P-AquaCraft"...

Carry-On...

[Darin Jordan]

I would like to suggest, in all this discussion, that we all keep in mind one pretty important point:

The whole nature of this class STARTED with the introduction of the RTR SV27, and was quickly followed up with the UL-1, Miss Geico, IM31, Revolt, Motley Crew, etc.... Now TFL is entering the mix, and it looks to me like Atomix/Venom and maybe even Traxxas could offer entries as some point here.

RTR offerings, and RTR power systems, are the very BASIS for the existence of the P-LTD framework. The classes, to this very day, are FILLED with Revolts and Miss Geicos and Mystics and Motley Crews and Lucas Oils and BlackJack 29s, etc.

Some of you may not see this in your areas, but in areas with a LOT of growth and a lot of Nitro converts, or FE newbies, these boats form the BASIS with which they enter into the racing ranks. I can provide pictures from the 2014 NAMBA Nationals with Nitro FE converts racing in the Exhibition FE classes and standing on the podium in classes like P-Mono, smiling and holding their AQ Revolts. (Heck, one was ALMOST standing up there with a very over-powered IM31.. :)

These RTRs are the very FOUNDATION of many racing organizations and race classes in NAMBA. Without them, you would simply NOT have the amount of participation that we enjoy today.

Anything you do with motor rules NEEDS to keep these offerings in mind. Anything you specify needs to be competitive with THEM, not the other way around.

And for those who think that the RTRs aren't or can't be competitive, all you have to do is look at the race entries for many of these classes, especially the Mono and Cat classes. At least out here, there are RTR hulls that are usually on the podium, or not far off the pace. Maybe we're just all beginners?? :blink:

AND, every one of these drivers at some point, decides they want to do more, and show up with Mean Machines or some other custom built creation, with their RTR power system on board, and begin moving up in the ranks.

It's all starting, however, with that off-the-shelf offerings, those pesky Ready-to-Run boats, that got these drivers started... and hooked... on this incredibly fun racing pass-time.

[Brushless55]

I really love the P-Ltd classes!
for some reason and I know its my setup but I've cooked several AQ2030 motors in my JAE
but the motor in my PS295 rocks and was I think one of the first runs with the UL-1, and that motors just keeps going and going and ..... :banana:

[fox88gt]

Heck, I just wish I had to a club to race with thats less than a 180 mile round trip away!

[Greg Schweers]

I told Dave years ago that it'll come down to one manufacturer for spec. The problem I have is that they've changed/lowered the quality of the motor and turned around to charge you $20 more. To me it felt like AquaCraft firgured out they're the only motor, so why not raise the price. For Mike to say that he doesn't care what motor we're using -- I'm not believing that. Because of guys like me, we're buying hundreds of motors from them. I personally have purchased over 25 motors since 2010. Two years ago I lost 4 motors going from 45C batteries to 65C batteries. But I've also had several motors go two or three laps and then burn up. If the temperature goes over 135 degrees, I know I need to back off the prop. I run 5 boats every race, 13 times a year, so I know I'm going to have failures. What upsets me is that I could have bought 12 1415-1Y and only used 5 of them over the last 4 years--leaving me 7 still on the shelf. I know for a fact that our club has burned up over 15 this year.

[D. Newland]

And I've told you that you push P-Ltd boats too hard. And that 1415 1Y's are a P motor.

Howard, same with the Leopards you mentioned. P motors. Fantastic for what you are doing, but do you really think that's the way to go? Put 1415 1Y's and Leopards on the P-Ltd list?

Terry-I'm not going to comment on Sean's, Fred's and Tom's racing programs, other than to say I'd like to hear their opinions on this. I do know that Sean continuously hands me my ass in LSH (without any DNF's that I'm aware of, including my Az races). He does very well in P-Ltd Mono, too. And Tom had 11 strong finishes out of 12 heats of P-Ltd Mono, P-Ltd Cat and LSH. Fred was running the Nat's, so I'm not going to even look at his data, but I know he pulled Mr. Offshore at the Cup in 2013.

[ron1950]

I hope there is something that will be worked out for 1/10 scale. I only have a few Proboat motors at 1500kv left and one AQ motor that is approved for this class

you can always use the himax 1500 I beleave

[Grimracer]

we sometimes get accused of lowering the quality and raising the price.. Its a reaction to the cause.. Its like.. (he must be cheating cus he is winning BS)..lol (just not the case at all) Can and does the MFG "Sneak one past us" from time to time.. yep.. they all do. We try to control that best we can AND if this happens we try to get back to where we were as fast as we can.

As for caring or not.. really.. I don't.. I feel more is better and that goes for competition in motors as well. If we decide to chase the leader the leader we will chase.. (ya know.. I like competition too!).. Business or racing.... I do (you would to) find it fun to have your products wining races. (listen.. I am just the boat monkey... "5 pole mike" lol....)

Have fun and at the end of the day.. YOU CHOOSE racing boats.. keep it in perspective.. draw your weapon and pull the throttle!

Grim

On we go..

[PatrickM]

What upsets me is that I could have bought 12 1415-1Y and only used 5 of them over the last 4 years--leaving me 7 still on the shelf.If 1415-1Y's had been allowed as spec motors, I feel certain that the top-feeder racers would have quickly discovered the limits of Neu quality. The same would be true with any motor which could be specified in a limited classification. This may not be immediately apparent at a club level when only a few are pushing the limits of the motors, but will become much more obvious if racers across the country are all running the same motors. We will always push the equipment beyond its design parameters no matter the source or perceived quality. Unfortunately with the present limited specification, the motor has become the weak link in the chain... this will continue to be the case as long as open ESC's and batteries are allowed. Improving the quality of the motor or limiting the ESC will only turn the speedo into the weak link... the same goes for Lipo's. Choose your poison....:unsure:

On the plus side, Steve offers a rebuild service for his motors....

[Whitey]

You know, it is possible to stop using motors and controllers as fuses.

A simple, economical fuse :flashfire: can be added to any system. A small fuse block that plugs in between the batteries and the controller can be easily fabbed.

Fuses monitored by the CD would mean:
1. Motors wouldn't need to be spec'd (let everyone use whatever motor they want)
2. Controllers would be equalized (the AQ ESC would be equal to the high dollar ESC, not the make-believe equality that exist now)
3. It would also likely equalize the props used

Everyone would have a limit to the current they draw and how they put it to use is up to them.

You over prop and a $1.50 fuse is blown, not one of those $70 motor/fuses that you are using now.

If you want to tech, fuses can be passed out pre-race and inspected in seconds at the end of heats or races.

[T.S.Davis]

"If you find P-Ltd frustrating and you're unable to "dig" in another spot, I'd rather you just pass on P-Ltd and race P or any other power parameter."

That's what ya said Dave.

I don't need an opinion from Fred, Tom and Sean. The facts are plenty.

One fact is that those guys can get it done in limited. You like numbers. The numbers tell us they got it figured out. Another fact.........those guys.........are having motor failures.

Enough failures that Sean's club is leaving NAMBA limited behind in favor of something else. Doug didn't just decide for his club that they were done with the existing specification.

[Darin Jordan]

You over prop and a $1.50 fuse is blown, not one of those $70 motor/fuses that you are using now.


I'd be interested in seeing how "economical", or practical to fit into the boat, a fuse that can handle 80+ amps continuous is going to be. I've researched, and found that it's NOT so simple as you make it sound.

If you know of something otherwise, please let us know.

[Darin Jordan]

We've been at this point in the discussion before, guys... except back then it was called "LSH/LSO" and LS-IPC...

[Whitey]

42mm x 12mm (about 1/2 in wide and 1 1/2 long). The block to hold it is only slightly larger.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/files/littelfuse/technical%20resources/documents/data%20sheets/littelfuse_automotive_bolt_down_fuse_bf1_32v.pdf


There is a time-delay so spikes above the rated value are not going to prematurely blow the fuse.

This price of $5.98 ea for 10 pieces can be way, way under-cut by buying in large volume. I'd bet at a few hundred pieces, the price would be less than half.

http://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Fuses-32V-2000A-pieces/dp/B00LVJXMHC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1409188962&sr=8-2&keywords=BF1+FUSE+32V

Found a better source. $3 each single units. In bulk (like 1000) we are talking $1-$1.50.

[longballlumber]

"If you find P-Ltd frustrating and you're unable to "dig" in another spot, I'd rather you just pass on P-Ltd and race P or any other power parameter."

That's what ya said Dave.

I don't need an opinion from Fred, Tom and Sean. The facts are plenty.

One fact is that those guys can get it done in limited. You like numbers. The numbers tell us they got it figured out. Another fact.........those guys.........are having motor failures.

Enough failures that Sean's club is leaving NAMBA limited behind in favor of something else. Doug didn't just decide for his club that they were done with the existing specification.

So I am curious, what do we do with all of the other racers that ARE NOT blowing up motors? We have guys that are running at/near the top of our club points system this year and in past years that ARE NOT blowing up motors (that I am aware of).

There is only one reason, they are not blowing up stuff... They aren't pushing as hard or as close to the limit.

How many Phil Thomas boats do we have in our club, that run the same prop I started running 2-3 years ago? WHY am I the only one not blowing up motors at the numbers (and rate) you guys are? We run in the same club, same pond, and against the same competition...

I am not hear to suggest there isn't anything to be concerned about. However, I will argue that blowing up motors is an EPIDEMIC!

I haven't heard from any guys on the east coast. Chili and Doug, what about you and your guys, are you blowing up motors to the frequency that is being discussed here?

I know there is a club on the north side of Indy called the Indianapolis Admirals. All of there racing is based off of the RTR offerings from Pro Boat and Aquacraft. Maybe we should be contacting them to see if they are affected by "the plague" everyone is talking about...

http://www.indyadmirals.org/RACE.html

Nitro racing is starting to look better and better to me....

[Darin Jordan]

42mm x 12mm (about 1/2 in wide and 1 1/2 long). The block to hold it is only slightly larger.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/files/littelfuse/technical%20resources/documents/data%20sheets/littelfuse_automotive_bolt_down_fuse_bf1_32v.pdf


There is a time-delay so spikes above the rated value are not going to prematurely blow the fuse.

This price of $5.98 ea for 10 pieces can be way, way under-cut by buying in large volume. I'd bet at a few hundred pieces, the price would be less than half.

http://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Fuses-32V-2000A-pieces/dp/B00LVJXMHC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1409188962&sr=8-2&keywords=BF1+FUSE+32V

Found a better source. $3 each single units. In bulk (like 1000) we are talking $1-$1.50.

Interesting, but I'd need to see some ratings for continuous AMPs sustained, and I'd also have to see what the mounting mechanism would look like.

Overcomplicate these setups and people will NOT build them.

I'm not against the idea, just a little leery of the "too good to be true" simplicity being suggested.

This is still just a crutch for most people. I'm NOT in the category of being one who is "burning up motors"... I've had a couple fail, but it was ALWAYS my fault. Pushed them too hard trying to find the limit. Once it's found, we all SHOULD know better than to go there again.

[HTVboats]

Some good points here. I made a statement on another thread that P ltd may not be the best thing for the hobby. I misspoke as Darrin pointed out it is what is growing numbers. My issue is the numbers are just duplication of one power option in every configuration of hull anyone can come up with. So why are there few places other than the "Nationals" to run a full P, Q or above. With one cookie cutter option no one can try similar options available in the marketplace.
I have built a "P" mono with a DF33 and 1515 1Y power. In the few events I have been it holds its own and cost for motor and ESC less than a $200 upgrade over a P lmt. Reality is when someone comes in with a legal P and a 1527 with the Shultze controller needed for 4500 watts I am SOL. In NAMBA P is not limited to one motor as in IMPBA, so costs can get really out of hand. So who's wanting a full P?
Given that this forum is full of guys overpowering their RTR's (Tim the toolman- MORE POWER) with 4084's and or 6S with whatever a few hundred will buy, but they aren't buying $700 MGM's. There are tinkerers out there but not a race class for them. P ltd and P superstock? I know more classes. There coming one way or another.
I like the NZ rules at 36X74 max though I can't see excluding premium motors. The extra hundred for a 1415 Neu is an good investment and won't break the bank with esc requirements. With just a can size limit you have choices and manufacturers can respond if they choose. Easy to inspect and enforce with a caliper. Would this discourage new RTR racers? I think the tinkerers will become the hard and fast racers. Plug and play is the easy way in and the easy way out also. JMO
Mic

How about super "Q" instead with a 40x92 single motor limit to keep costs in line and a place for tinkerers ? keep P ltd where its at

[TheShaughnessy]

I'm gonna try and keep this short. ( but I didn't)
I haven't burnt up a motor in my p ltd cat in two seasons, I'm sitting in second for points in the thunder boat club out here. My boat runs well past 45 mph, so I wouldn't say it's a total slouch. To get me there my amp draw is basically right at 50 amps if not higher and I see spikes well into the 80+amp area. I generally run a 447 turned down a tic or an m445. Temps are not ice cool but definitely manageable. That being said, I often run a fan, I use an additional water cooled heat sink under the motor and sometimes a heat sink off the back of the motor. Weather or not any of that crap provides added cooling is up for debate.

This year I switched from an older PB 1800 to a new AQ 1800, Set up remained the same and I didn't burn the motor, got a little scare though, there was some wispy smoke after the first run on the new motor but I'm fairly certain it was the factory oil in the bearings burning off, motor still runs great.

I also have a 2030 nib. Got cold feat after reading about "reduced motor quality leading to failure" and felt the 1800 was a better option for me.

I don't have a hydro to run but I suspect it can be done without melting stators.

To those burning motors, if they are defective out of the box I can't believe tower wouldn't replace it under warranty, they really stand behind their product. A lot of it is your attitude on the phone. They deal with people all day and can probably detect user error vs manufacture error much the same way a banker can feel a fake bill when thumbing threw a big stack of cash. Imagine you own a business and you get a phone call.. Hey I just burnt 7 of your motors they are pieces of junk!!! In your head you are thinking, wow we've never seen a failure rate like that before. 7 motors and you still didn't figure out it was too much load? Kinda like I crashed five of your cars, not cause I can't drive but because the steering wasn't that good.

In closing I have no issues with the current list of approved motors, I do have a concern there isn't a PB option any longer but I also don't doubt they will release another.

As for nue as a spec, get out of town. Alienates all those with currently approved motors and any new comers. Prop diameter limiting? I've seen several guys go several mph faster without increasing any diameter to their prop so good luck there.

If more motors were on the list that would be great, but they need to be within 5 % of what we currently use or it just starts a new class. The current rules allow for such changes so I'm failing to see the issue here.

If anything I think we should be allowed to add heat shrink down into the can and snip the piece that bundles all the wires together. I've seen several motors fail because of melted heat shrink.

[ray schrauwen]

In my Spec Cat Mrs. Geico this year in Michigan I swapped out the Chinese coupler for an Octura and I saw at least a 10* decfrease in my temps. Little things....

In my LSH I propped down to either a 42mm 2 blade or a M440 x3 blade prop. Not the fastest but, stable and reliable without major heat. Two years ago in MI. I tried running M445 in same boat same setup but, cooked 3 motors and esc's getting only 3 laps out of each setup. My own fault the second one as I dropped prop too deep.

[T.S.Davis]

WHY am I the only one not blowing up motors at the numbers (and rate) you guys are? We run in the same club, same pond, and against the same competition...

Because your boats do 21 laps per month? Plus, which generation of motor are you talking about? A motor that took Pete a couple years to injure was replaced with a motor that survived 6 runs. Pete's not doing anything crazy with his setups that I've seen. Although, without data, that might be a ridiculous statement. Someone could have slipped into his house and changed his setup between motors so that the new motor was drawing another 30 amps or something. Cuz that happens all the time.

The attraction, I think/thought, to limited classes is/was the low cost. Now there are superior motors for the same or less cost but we've boxed ourselves into a corner with the motor spec. There we will stay. I let it happen too. I was part of the process. Blew it. Sorry guys.

Doesn't matter. I'll get out. This will be my last season on them. I clearly don't have the skill to race in such a technically demanding class. Maybe when there are no motors NAMBA will figure out a solution.

It's much like N1. It wasn't until the class was nearly completely uncontested that a change was possible. The argument was EXACTLY the same then.
"You can't make a brushed motor fast because you lack the skill. If you had any ability you wouldn't need a better motor"

DéjÃ*!** vu

Another fun one was LiPo vs NiMh. "you just want to throw power at your setups instead of working them and tweaking them to get the most out of them".
That one also included "we're all gonna die" arguments to add to the joy.

DéjÃ*!** vu

Nayman said it best "it's like pushing a rope"

[Chilli]

I haven't heard from any guys on the east coast. Chili and Doug, what about you and your guys, are you blowing up motors to the frequency that is being discussed here?



We don't really have a dog in this fight so we're staying out of the conversation. But amongst ourselves, we're glade we didnt push to go national in the IMPBA with the P-Limited class otherwise we would be in this delimma also. We're content running the class with regional rules to suit our members. We (D12) don't have as mature a FE program as many of the NAMBA clubs out west and we are not exclusively FE. My newer members start off with the P-Limited classes and after a couple years start looking for a bit more speed. Either buy running in our Open classes or they get a gas boat. But we usually keep a P-Limited or two to support the classes. So far we don't have anyone that want's to win bad enough to push their P-Lim equipment to the point were they are having to buy a handfull of motors at a time. I really try to discourage that. If a racer has that kind of money to burn, they can get a Neu set up and get out of the Limited classes. Have i seen a few UL1 motors burn up? Saw one last week when someone a three blade with crazy pitch on a 20 Whip. Luckily someone had a spare and he switched to a more sensible prop. So that's my perspective on the class. The Limited Classes have different purposes to different clubs. So everyone needs to take care of it's membership. The problem lies when we all want to come together for regional or national events. How can we not have P-Limited classes?

[T.S.Davis]

I tried running M445 in same boat same setup but, cooked 3 motors and esc's getting only 3 laps out of each setup. My own fault the second one as I dropped prop too deep.

See, this is where the class is broken. Ray made a mistake on his setup. Strut too deep. Okay. The boat should have just run poorly. It shouldn't bake a motor on an M445. How is that good for anyone?

[jfrancisco892]

I have not read this entire thread and I know I don't have near the experience of what most people who have chimed in on this thread do, but here is my opinion. P limited boils down to setup and driving. If you try to make your boat go too fast it will burn up the motor, no ifs, ands, or buts.

At the nationals I was running P-Limited sport hydro and was running my normal 45x68 prop which I have never had an issue with on my 2030 motor. Keep in my this is my original UL-1 motor that I started with in the hobby roughly 2.5 years ago. I decided to go with the H7 (47.5x72) and at the end of the fifth lap she gave up the ghost. I knew it was a possibility when I put that prop on so I was not mad or upset in the least bit. That was the first time I have burnt up a motor.

After this I had a conversation with someone and we talked about the motor cooling on the HRC jackets. The elbow fittings are hands down the bottleneck for restricting flow on the water cooling system in my boat. I made some changes to them that I thought would help with flow and my NEW 2030 runs about 15-20 degrees cooler than it used to with the 45x68 (I ran the new motor on the same course with the same prop in very similar water and ambient temperature conditions before and after the elbow modifications).

What I'm getting at is I am now running a "NEW" (you guys think to be bad) 2030 in my Whiplash and to be honest I like it more than my "OLD" style 2030 UL-1 motor. It is extremely easy to plop one of these motors in your boat run a relatively huge prop burn a motor and get pissed. Everyone is dealing with the same equipment so why whine about it. IMO the beauty of spec racing is that everyone has the same motor and the best tuner/driver/hull setup will win.

[Doug Smock]

I haven't heard from any guys on the east coast. Chili and Doug, what about you and your guys, are you blowing up motors to the frequency that is being discussed here?


Hi Mike,
I have been reading but was not going to post. My opinion on this isn't popular with some, and I didn't want to start a poop storm. You guys have been having a good discussion.

As far as I know we have had one motor failure in D-13 in the 4+ years we have been running the classes. I tossed a magnet on a 2030.
Rick Beardon had the only control AQ control to lay down as far as I know. It just quit, servo worked fine but nobody home. Both of these were in O/B Tunnels.

[Doug Smock]

In NAMBA P is not limited to one motor as in IMPBA, so costs can get really out of hand. So who's wanting a full P?

Hey Mic,
You can run any motor in the IMPBA P class.

Very sorry for the mini hijack fellas.:tiphat:

Good post Chili.

[D. Newland]

"If you find P-Ltd frustrating and you're unable to "dig" in another spot, I'd rather you just pass on P-Ltd and race P or any other power parameter."

That's what ya said Dave.

I don't need an opinion from Fred, Tom and Sean. The facts are plenty.

One fact is that those guys can get it done in limited. You like numbers. The numbers tell us they got it figured out. Another fact.........those guys.........are having motor failures.

Enough failures that Sean's club is leaving NAMBA limited behind in favor of something else. Doug didn't just decide for his club that they were done with the existing specification.



Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

Terry-There's more to the story than motor failures with Peterson and Sean's group. Also, what's going on with your reading comprehension lately? You're usually spot on with this stuff. I'm not asking for you to get Tom's, Sean's and Fred's opinions, I'm asking for them. From them.

And, yes, I stand by what I said above. I respect you as a racer and as an active member in your club, NAMBA, as well as our friendship. I know I've stepped on some toes, but my intentions are to help racing and to keep what I consider a precious piece of P-Ltd intact.

With that said, you're not willing to "dig". Pags saw the light. I'd rather you not take the easy way out. Remember your first test run in Az back in February? Burned motor. What were the first words out of your mouth? It must be the water in Az's fault.

Can I help provide another spot to "dig"? Not just directed at Terry, but for anybody? I'll gladly put up detailed P-Ltd set up in formation on the Tips/Tricks section of this forum. For racers burning equipment, I'd rather they spend time dissecting their race programs and develop a different approach than drop out of P-Ltd, assuming you actually want to race in that Power Parameter.

You call this "pushing rope". I call this (per a PM I received), you can lead a horse to water...you know the rest.

[RandyatBBY]

My interest is in finding additional motors to add to the list. I did start the P LSH class with Dan Chase and in put from Andy Kunz and introduced the current P LTD motor idea in the 2008 Nats. I do not want to make waves in the current setup. I feel that the class could have a better more stable leopard/SS motor, but it must not over power the UL-1, i.e. just be the same more or less and not be as prone to newbie failures.
We have about 20 guys in D9 in FE and race our classes with the Nitro/gas guys. We are in the process of voting in the FE classes to be on the books and changing the rules would just confuse things. there for I will watch and wait for additional motors to see how they work out.

[longballlumber]

Because your boats do 21 laps per month? Plus, which generation of motor are you talking about? A motor that took Pete a couple years to injure was replaced with a motor that survived 6 runs. Pete's not doing anything crazy with his setups that I've seen. Although, without data, that might be a ridiculous statement. Someone could have slipped into his house and changed his setup between motors so that the new motor was drawing another 30 amps or something. Cuz that happens all the time.

There are entirely too many variables to answer the "WHY" in Pete's specific case. First thing I would want to see is a data log off of a run via eagle tree or Castle.

You know we did this with Tom's new cat earlier this season. Kept blowing up 2030's his new cat (his own design) using an M445. I asked him if you guys knew what kind of amp draw it's making? At that point we installed my eagle tree, on the very first run it was measuring an AVERAGE of 100 amps. Now how many motors did Tom burn up before we established there was something wrong other than the motor? More importantly how many motors across the racing community have been accused of being faulty because of this same type of unknown issue?

This is what i am talking about regarding data so we can make an informed decision on where to head next. have a COLLECTION of this data would/could help us identify and rage the motor may/may not survive in...


120088

[DPeterson]

A lot of insinuations being put out in this thread.

I might not be one of the top drivers in the country but I can put a well tuned boat on the water. Most of you have seen it at one time or another. Since P-Limited started I was able to run my Whip @ 54-55 mph and the motor would come back at 110 degrees. Even in Arizona. This would always piss Sean off. :) I could run my HOR-Pursuit 4 minutes with a trimmed 445 and the motor would come back at 90 degrees. Decided to start this year with a fresh batch of motors and now everything is 130degrees with the varnish cooking. Shame on some of you for insinuating we don't what we are doing.

And then to insinuate how a conversation with Tower Hobbies may have went. I don't call out people or companies in public so I will not go into detail. Shame on you.

The change in motor quality was in deed finally acknowledged by a member of AQ. No more needs to be said, there were changes and issues.

As I have stated there are a number of reasons our small club is going back to LSH, LSO and LS OPC. I have stated 2 of them. LSH, LSO and LS OPC were never RTR classes. These were a 1 motor class. Everyone put this motor into the hull of their choice and started tweeking props to see what we could get. In the meantime it was some good racing. Were looking forward to the prop work again. Not looking for parity or toy boat racing. We are going to push each other around the course. There, now you have a third reason. Only 9 to go.

Mike Ball - thought I read where you sold all your 2030's and went to all 1800's?

I hope you all can get your P-Limited thing figured out.

Doug

[ron1950]

not that anyone cares but I have burned up one pb 1800 in 3 years running (it seemed to burn the wires a little...I would have thought smaller gage wires woukd have fixed the problem) now then I burned up 2 pb 1500 in a modern 10th scale with a 45 mm plastic prop.....this one has me stumped as both were new and didn't last one run apeace... carry-on with the arguments ill just watch... you guys do know that no one is going to win this right? everyone will just get in there little groups and grumble until we get a few more motor choises

[Grimracer]

Doug.. I have to ask.. IF your whip was blasting out 54-55 MPH runs and the motor only coming back at 110... why is that motor not in the boat anymore?.. Truly.. why?
Seems like a killer setup to me.
You decided to start with a fresh batch of motors.. Why?
Then.. Because the new ones burned up did you contact product support and THEN put the old motors back in the boats.. what happen when you did? Did it go back to 54-55MPH and run 110deg?

Really.. I don’t know.. just seems like something is missing….
You don’t have to fill in the blanks but it could help with the discovery of what might be going on.
Grim

[D. Newland]

...
And then to insinuate how a conversation with Tower Hobbies may have went. I don't call out people or companies in public so I will not go into detail. Shame on you.

Doug


Doug, I don't see what you are getting at here. If it's something I said, please let me know.

[DPeterson]

Grim - Unlike Nitro and Gas motors that may loosen up, break in and start running better, electric motors are the opposite. Electric motors get, I'll call it tired. I could tell my Whip was slowing. Knowing it will do the 54-55 I am not satisfied with 50-52. I can also tell when my props begin to un-pitch. Currently addressing that with a heat treatment program.

Did the exact same thing when we ran the SS1's. I started each season with a new batch or when I felt the boat was slowing.

The older 2030's also had the wires entry into the cans looking a little shabby. I threw them all in the garbage. Sorry - I have the money to do that.

By the way - In the manufacturing industry we are constantly replacing electric motors. They get tired. Some of these are like 100 hp.

Carry on.

[Doby]

I get the "tired" thing that Doug is talking about. when I built my Popeye LSH last summer, I put in a trusted, several year old 2030...ran well and I used it lots of times before the NATS this year. At the Nats it seemed to be lethargic. Now, maybe the water in Michigan is more dense than in Canada, thus slowing it down.....but....

I put a brand new 2030 in about a month ago and holly hydro Batman, the boat has come back to life! BUT, it also seems to run consistently 20 deg hotter (about 130) and there is a distinct new motor smell after each run.



How long it will last???....well, we'll see....

[longballlumber]

Mike Ball - thought I read where you sold all your 2030's and went to all 1800's?

That is a true statement and I was referring to our club classes (we don't run OPC in our club, not enough boats). And the OPC has run a 2030 since putting it together. Oh, and I've never blown a motor in the OPC either.

I would also like to add, I also ran the RTR 60amp Aquacraft controllers in ALL of my P-Limited boats until this year. That being said there is only one boat I am NOT running an AQ 60amp controller. For the 2014 season in the P-Limited Sport Hydro class, I started the season with an old Castle Phoenix 180 (with the old Barracuda software install). This was an air cooled controller. For the Nationals I swap the 180 for a Castle Edge Lite 200 (converted to water cooling). I did this mostly for the data logging properties (I can share those logs if you like)

On to the motors – All of the following comments are in reference to my P-Limited Sport Hydro set up. All of my other club boats run 1800’s

The last club race of the 2012 season I put in an 1800 with an ABC H7 to see how it would fair in heat racing conditions with other boats. It went well and the setup showed some promise. For the entire 2013 season I ran with an 1800 and the boat ran very well. It was class of the field for our club races. Just before the 2013 MI Cup. I put a NEW 1800 into the boat for that race. In the third heat of that race I had a controller start to go bad. In the process of the controller going bad, it took out the motor. I didn’t realize it until the start of the 4th heat. That was my last event for 2013 as I took some time away for my own personal reasons.

On to 2013, at the first club race I was still running the 1800 motor. I quickly realized that many club members had stepped up their game and many were as fast (or faster) than my boat. At that point I decided to go back to the 2030 and an ABC H5. That is the same prop I’ve been running since you guys came out to our little pond to race, same hull for that matter too (2010?). I wanted to “see� if there was a difference in race conditions. What I noticed is the boat would carry speed through the turns a little better. So I’ve stuck with it. That is also what I ran at the nationals.

I have burnt up my share of motors and I have readily stated that. However, it’s certainly not at the same quantity and frequency the others have been describing. Heck, I’ve seen with my own eyes at a club races.


I am not sure what relevance your question directed at me has to do with the discussion. I am not sure if you’re attempting to discredit me, my posts, information or data. Are we only discussing the 2030's and the 1800's OK? I am not sure what your point was...

I will say this again. I am voicing my opinions base on the concerns of the hobby in general as a whole. As a racer, I am going to buy and use the equipment that I feel gives me an opportunity to perform at a high level. I will also say it again… I am not suggesting there isn't a reason to be concerned. However, I AM suggesting this isn't an epidemic.

If I left anything out that you would like to know, I will gladly share.

Later,
Ball

[Grimracer]

So.. there is no constant... I think we all knew that.
That SO solidifies the situation..
So you know.. In Nitro racing a big part is engine care.. we can lose a piston fit in one lean run.. if we "push" our motors they too expire early. (I always run my CMB motors fat and happy and my OS Outboard likes it its last day, I beat on that poor little motor like a red headed step child).. I pay that price in my attempt to win knowing full well.. it’s going to cost a C note.. from time to time.
See ya pond side

Grim

[DPeterson]

Dave - not you. Post 51.

Mike - It is not my intent to discredit. I was under the impression you went primarily 1800. But then you have taken a hard stance on the 2030's. I too have tried to find the sweet spot between the 1800 and the prop on various boats and just could not get there.

Sorry for the distraction.

Doug

[D. Newland]

Dave - not you. Post 51.
...

Doug

Ok, got it. FWIW, I know Shaunnessy and I really don't think his comments were about you/your situation. Maybe he can clarify, but I think he was just making a general comment.

[longballlumber]

Dave - not you. Post 51.

Mike - It is not my intent to discredit. I was under the impression you went primarily 1800. But then you have taken a hard stance on the 2030's. I too have tried to find the sweet spot between the 1800 and the prop on various boats and just could not get there.

Sorry for the distraction.

Doug

No worries... Because of the competitive nature of the P-Limited Sport Hydro class, I was looking for better/same performance out of the 1800's with less amp draw than I was seeing in the 2030's. While it worked for a little while is wasn't a slam dunk.

Terry, might be right in a way. I haven't been able to do the same amount of testing and racing for the last couple of years...

[HTVboats]

Hey Mic,
You can run any motor in the IMPBA P class.

Very sorry for the mini hijack fellas.:tiphat:

Good post Chili.

Doug,
I was referring to the rules for P on up in NAMBA and Q on up in IMPBA not limiting to one motor. Except in certain hull categories like scale and sport hydro. A NAMBA legal P can run twins, complying to voltage only. Explains the P Cat record 30 mph faster in NAMBA. The 10000ma limit keeps them out of heat racing not records. Your new T mono should have twins! (really bad crash potential)
Mic

[Chilli]

Easy to explain Mic. Look at the date of the record.

[T.S.Davis]

Jimmy, once you burn one or multiple motors on what you feel is your "normal" prop and you don't think you are pushing you will be less than pleased.

Dave, I ran a 447 all season on my pond. Went to Phoenix thinking don't change a thing. Poof. You said 45x55 max. Tried that and it blew the deck off the boat. Had to drop to a 42x55. I thought like Doug. Fresh motors. The difference between there and here was the water and the motor.

Keep in mind that's the boat that placed in 2 classes at the nats. It's not the build. But not with one of the only two spec motors available today.

[Doug Smock]

Doug,
I was referring to the rules for P on up in NAMBA and Q on up in IMPBA not limiting to one motor. Except in certain hull categories like scale and sport hydro. A NAMBA legal P can run twins, complying to voltage only. Explains the P Cat record 30 mph faster in NAMBA. The 10000ma limit keeps them out of heat racing not records. Your new T mono should have twins! (really bad crash potential)
Mic

:doh: Got ya.

[ray schrauwen]

After this I had a conversation with someone and we talked about the motor cooling on the HRC jackets. The elbow fittings are hands down the bottleneck for restricting flow on the water cooling system in my boat. I made some changes to them that I thought would help with flow and my NEW 2030 runs about 15-20 degrees cooler than it used to with the 45x68 (I ran the new motor on the same course with the same prop in very similar water and ambient temperature conditions before and after the elbow modifications).

I agree with the fittings but, not so much on a 2030 motor. Bigger hotter motors, yes a significant decrease but, I haven't seen a big diff with spec boats.

[D. Newland]

...Dave, I ran a 447 all season on my pond. Went to Phoenix thinking don't change a thing. Poof. You said 45x55 max. Tried that and it blew the deck off the boat. Had to drop to a 42x55. I thought like Doug. Fresh motors. The difference between there and here was the water and the motor.

Keep in mind that's the boat that placed in 2 classes at the nats. It's not the build. But not with one of the only two spec motors available today.

Do you remember the look on my face when you said it was a 447?

yes-the Nat's, we had some great racing in P-ltd mono and O/S. The point I'm trying to make is where your head is at with regards to fault. Az water. Motors lack of quality. You're probably right on some level, but there's a common denominator in there somewhere, too. Your P-Ltd mono ran like a raped ape at the Nat's. Hands down the fastest boat in that class, right?

I look at those two facts and don't have any sympathy about your motor losses. Don't feel bad, you're in good company (with Schweers). edit-that was more of a joke than a serious comment. But, I do question your argument/position.

[T.S.Davis]

Yes it was because I didn't put a 2030 back in it. Only Ty's boats have 2030 now. He's running old stock though.

My point was that the setup I ran for a season (M447) was suddenly not viable. Mike keeps saying data data data but two identical setups with two motors that are supposed to be the same and one turns 5mm less prop. How can this be?

That's like buying Z rated tires. Accept one of them doesn't measure up to the others. You race based on testing and the tire fails because it's not the same.

I'm not running crazy prop sizes. The last two 2030 I lost were running 45x55. Not unreasonable on zero drag wire drives and free running boats.

[jfrancisco892]

Jimmy, once you burn one or multiple motors on what you feel is your "normal" prop and you don't think you are pushing you will be less than pleased.

That is true. However a motor does not typically go unless it is a relatively hot setup (i.e. coming in after a run at roughly 120+ degrees fahrenheit). Whenever I put a new motor in a boat, if I can I will typically run 2-3 laps with it and do a temperature check to make sure it is in a range I am comfortable with. I think with the setups most of us run you have to expect to burn up motors. If and when that does happen you need to make a change to make sure it does not happen again. From what I have heard, it sounds like some of you are burning up motors, throwing a new one in and expecting different results. That does not make sense to me. If a motor burns up something is wrong. Like I said earlier everyone is using the same motor, so adapt to it and make changes. I just want to say I am not mad at anyone and just want to preserve this class as it is where I have the most fun in boat racing.

Jimmy

[Doug Smock]

BUT, it also seems to run consistently 20 deg hotter (about 130) and there is a distinct new motor smell after each run.

..
Ok reed dis slo is a lot ta take in.

Usen back wouds hillbillys down eer in na SE call dat a clue. Keep it up in it mighten burn ta dang boat down pert near da waterline.
Take ya a par a dikes or sumin and wack just a wee bit off a da tips a dat prop and toss er back out dare. I'm bettin you see a differsce.
Shoot, I seen some boyz take sum off ta tips jus rubin em on a rock an dey boats wer fastern an ey waz ,an ey wernt near az hot. Sumpin bout freezing up em rpm.

Tired motors, we ain nevr hured of sutch a thang. Ide think iffn ey wuz tared ya mussa werked em tu hard. But dats gust me.:tt2::laugh:

Lova ya bro!! Have your buddy's flush the toilets will ya?? Our pond is low.:tiphat:

PS Keep ya an I out fer a bild thred. Imma bild a nu saw boat outa sum sticks and Murtices gurdal!!:scared:

[Doby]

Ok reed dis slo is a lot ta take in.

Usen back wouds hillbillys down eer in na SE call dat a clue. Keep it up in it mighten burn ta dang boat down pert near da waterline.
Take ya a par a dikes or sumin and wack just a wee bit off a da tips a dat prop and toss er back out dare. I'm bettin you see a differsce.
Shoot, I seen some boyz take sum off ta tips jus rubin em on a rock an dey boats wer fastern an ey waz ,an ey wernt near az hot. Sumpin bout freezing up em rpm.

Tired motors, we ain nevr hured of sutch a thang. Ide think iffn ey wuz tared ya mussa werked em tu hard. But dats gust me.:tt2::laugh:

Lova ya bro!! Have your buddy's flush the toilets will ya?? Our pond is low.:tiphat:

PS Keep ya an I out fer a bild thred. Imma bild a nu saw boat outa sum sticks and Murtices gurdal!!:scared:


You iz such a tool....:hug1:

So as this has turned into a he said/she said thread about Aq 2030 motors, I do believe that the thread title stated " P Limited Motor Discussion"...so lets agree to disagree on the AQ motors and move on to something more worthwhile...I hate to say it , but Petersons thread actually has more validity...lets "discuss" other potential
p limited motor options to supplement the only 2 remaining AQ options.


And Doug S...I do fully expect my knew moter to roll ovar and die if I keeps running it as is...but it will be my's fault caus I knowes better but still does it....

Hang on a minute...water coming your way...FLUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Luck as a Constant]

Ok reed dis slo is a lot ta take in.

Usen back wouds hillbillys down eer in na SE call dat a clue. Keep it up in it mighten burn ta dang boat down pert near da waterline.
Take ya a par a dikes or sumin and wack just a wee bit off a da tips a dat prop and toss er back out dare. I'm bettin you see a differsce.
Shoot, I seen some boyz take sum off ta tips jus rubin em on a rock an dey boats wer fastern an ey waz ,an ey wernt near az hot. Sumpin bout freezing up em rpm.

Tired motors, we ain nevr hured of sutch a thang. Ide think iffn ey wuz tared ya mussa werked em tu hard. But dats gust me.:tt2::laugh:

Lova ya bro!! Have your buddy's flush the toilets will ya?? Our pond is low.:tiphat:

PS Keep ya an I out fer a bild thred. Imma bild a nu saw boat outa sum sticks and Murtices gurdal!!:scared:

Omg hahaha!
This is the best post I've ever seen :yesway:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LuckyDuc]

Oh boy. Now the thread is literally going south.:scared:

A lot of this frustration stems from lack of motor choices in the P-Ltd class. We have all grown accustom to using one manufacturer/motor. Now that there are some noticeable variations in that motor’s performance and quality from previous batches, many are looking for alternatives. Who can blame them? Nobody wants to de-tune their boats from previously successful setups. I’m as lazy about changing proven setups as the next guy. Especially, when it seems that one variable is causing the need for said change.
I do like the fact that this was written into NAMBA’s P-ltd rule set…

There MAY be other options...
NAMBA Rulebook section 28.D.1.d.iii:

iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:

(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.
(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.
(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event
The above keeps with the tradition of homologation that is present in most motor sports.

I’m confident that some RTR manufacturer will step up to the plate to answer the demand. It may take a year or two though. And why can’t we have the same quality of RTR manufacturers in the boating world that we do in the car world? Team Associated comes to mind in the R/C car racing world.

What do we do in the mean time? Were the “original� LSH and LSO classes really built around one motor? I have to admit, there is some appeal to using one reasonably high quality motor for the “spec-Limited� class… Of course until that manufacturer has a supplier/quality issue as well.

I haven't given up on the P-Ltd classes, but we may see a resurgence of "open" P classes in the near future.

[Doug Smock]

You iz such a tool....:hug1:

So as this has turned into a he said/she said thread about Aq 2030 motors, I do believe that the thread title stated " P Limited Motor Discussion"...so lets agree to disagree on the AQ motors and move on to something more worthwhile...I hate to say it , but Petersons thread actually has more validity...lets "discuss" other potential
p limited motor options to supplement the only 2 remaining AQ options.


And Doug S...I do fully expect my knew moter to roll ovar and die if I keeps running it as is...but it will be my's fault caus I knowes better but still does it....

Hang on a minute...water coming your way...FLUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't disagree my friend, just having fun with you as you'd expect.
I don't have any experience with the newer motors. Mine are ancient.
I'm glad you guys are looking for better options. We will follow when we need to.:wink:
Thanks fellas,

D.

[tjcast]

There are entirely too many variables to answer the "WHY" in Pete's specific case. First thing I would want to see is a data log off of a run via eagle tree or Castle.

You know we did this with Tom's new cat earlier this season. Kept blowing up 2030's his new cat (his own design) using an M445. I asked him if you guys knew what kind of amp draw it's making? At that point we installed my eagle tree, on the very first run it was measuring an AVERAGE of 100 amps. Now how many motors did Tom burn up before we established there was something wrong other than the motor? More importantly how many motors across the racing community have been accused of being faulty because of this same type of unknown issue?

This is what i am talking about regarding data so we can make an informed decision on where to head next. have a COLLECTION of this data would/could help us identify and rage the motor may/may not survive in...


120088

Mike you PROMISED to keep that picture private :Shame_on_You: and never post it on the internet :roflol: ! LOL.

2 motors, each time making changes in set up, same results, ok on an X642, or x440/3 but too slow. Basic boat design flaw. That boat hasn't seen water since those tests.

I understand Terry's frustrations with proven set ups baking NEW motors but I also accept the fact that WE push these motors beyond their intended limits. Some times through the grace of the FE racing Gods we get away with exceeding those limits. Some times those Gods frown down on us and say "not today". I accept the fact that I run my set ups to where I may, at any time, burn a motor. Do I enjoy finding that magic number (size prop that will toast a motor in a set up, then prop one size down), NO. Will having more motor options solve this problem, I don't know but I would like to have the option to try.

I don't think anyone is looking for more speed out of P-Limited. I would just personally like to see a few more motor options.

[Darin Jordan]

Try this on for size... THIS is how you specify power systems for a class. ALL of these motors would work for P-LTD. They are all 550-sized, 4-Pole motors of various KVs, all spec'd to be competitive with each other in their class ( ROAR 1/8th Scale):



Type Importer Manufacturer Name/Description μH* Approval Date
1:8 Associated LRP LRP Vector 8 #LRP50910 2500kv November 3, 2009
1:8 Associated LRP LRP Vector 8 #LRP50920 2800kv November 3, 2009
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53240 Dynamic 8 2200Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53270 Dynamic 8 2600Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53230 Dynamic 8 1800Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53235 Dynamic 8 2000Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 989 Sonic 1512 2100Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 993 Sonic 1512 5400Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 988 Sonic 1512 1800Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Castle Creations Neu/Castle 1515 - 2200CM January 19, 2009
1:8 Castle Creations Neu/Castle 2650CMS August 18, 2009
1:8 Hobby King Hobby King Turnigy Trackstar 22409 (1900Kv); 24519 (2100Kv); 32125 (2400Kv) April 22, 2014
1:8 Hobbywing Hobbywing 2000KV 4274 #90060000 XeRUN May 1, 2011
1:8 Hobbywing Hobbywing 2250KV 4168 #90060010 XeRUN May 1, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28813 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128271 (2100KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128272 (2500KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28817 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28812 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28815 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28816 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28818 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128270 (1900KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28819 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28811 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28814 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138806V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 8.5T "2400KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion Cirtix slotless sensored 8th motor 2200Kv, p/n CSL01 June 5, 2010
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138807V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 9.5T "2100KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion Cirtix slotless sensored 8th motor 2500Kv, p/n CSL02 June 5, 2010
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138805V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 7.5T "2700KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138803V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 5.5T "3900KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138804V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 6.5T "3200KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9420 1300kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9422 2100kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9421 1700kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Novak Electronics Novak Electronics 3800 - 3819 Ballistic 8 August 11, 2011
1:8 Tekin Tekin Tekin Redline T8 Gen 2 - Buggy Motors July 9, 2013
1:8 Tekin Tekin #4030 T8 All Winds October 1, 2009
1:8 Tekin Tekin #4038 T8 All Winds October 1, 2009
1:8 Tekin Tekin Tekin Redline T8i - Buggy Motors July 31, 2013
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A1900 - 1900KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A1400 - 1400KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A2100 - 2100KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A2400 - 2400KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1800B1/ VSE-B 1800Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1600B1/ VSE-B 1600Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE2450B1/ VSE-B 2450Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1400B1/ VSE-B 1400Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions V F - 8 (Series) March 23, 2014
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE2050B1/ VSE-B 2050Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011

[jfrancisco892]

Well said Mr. Castellani.

[NativePaul]

We used Mega 22/30/2 (36x53.5mm, 5 mm shaft, 25mm spaced M3 mounting, 220gram, 6 pole, European made) motors for our spec class for several years here and I never heard of one going wrong. With that said we are endurance racing and not sprint racing using the motor as a fuse.

I would have thought burning motors from time to time would be expected in the P-ltd classes as the motor is the weak link in the chain, as we expect to puff cells from time to time with them being the weak link in our chain.

The RTR motors are all cheap Chinese motors (though marked up by an additional middle man) and we all know that quality control an uniformity of production is an issue with Chinese manufacturing. Normally we take this to be the chance of getting a bad motor, but for every bad one there must be a good too, could it not be that the folk some of the folk who say they have started getting consistently bad motors now could actually be getting average motors like most people always got, but their original motor happened to be a good one and an average or bad one wont pull the same prop, you might go through a few before you get another good one that will cope if you are not willing too prop down to the motor you have.

Water can make a huge difference to amp draws. Elmbridge, one of my local lakes is very thirsty, when we get visitors for the first time they often run out of juice before the end if they are tight on the time at their home lake and don't heed the advice to prop down, I think it is about 10-15% higher average amp draw than the typical lakes I go to. It looks no different, but whatever the quality of motor involved if your motor was propped to the limit at an average lake and you tried to run the same prop at Elmbridge it would burn for sure.

[TheShaughnessy]

Correct. It was a general statement. I used to do returns for a hobby shop, sadly equipment fails and manufactures make mistakes. Tower has covered thousands in faulty equipment that I personally sent to them. Horizon sent the wrong esc for a repair, let me keep a 80 amp esc when I called for an IM 17. The point is these companies want our business, they want a solid reputation and they take pride in what they do. Why would they tell someone to kick rocks if the complaint was legit?

I'm not professing to be some sort of p ltd wizard either, just sharing personal experience.

[jaike5]

Doug that was the most clear post on this thread...LMAO

Race On :rockon2:

Cheers, Jay.

[DPeterson]

I nominate Darin to start putting together the NAMBA P-Limited Approved Motor List. How about starting with 6 motors that encompases a minimum of 4 brands.

Do I hear a second?

[HTVboats]

Ok reed dis slo is a lot ta take in.

Usen back wouds hillbillys down eer in na SE call dat a clue. Keep it up in it mighten burn ta dang boat down pert near da waterline.
Take ya a par a dikes or sumin and wack just a wee bit off a da tips a dat prop and toss er back out dare. I'm bettin you see a differsce.
Shoot, I seen some boyz take sum off ta tips jus rubin em on a rock an dey boats wer fastern an ey waz ,an ey wernt near az hot. Sumpin bout freezing up em rpm.

Tired motors, we ain nevr hured of sutch a thang. Ide think iffn ey wuz tared ya mussa werked em tu hard. But dats gust me.:tt2::laugh:

Lova ya bro!! Have your buddy's flush the toilets will ya?? Our pond is low.:tiphat:

PS Keep ya an I out fer a bild thred. Imma bild a nu saw boat outa sum sticks and Murtices gurdal!!:scared:

Really, after 1 weekend wiff de Atwells :beerchug:

[HTVboats]

Try this on for size... THIS is how you specify power systems for a class. ALL of these motors would work for P-LTD. They are all 550-sized, 4-Pole motors of various KVs, all spec'd to be competitive with each other in their class ( ROAR 1/8th Scale):



Type Importer Manufacturer Name/Description μH* Approval Date
1:8 Associated LRP LRP Vector 8 #LRP50910 2500kv November 3, 2009
1:8 Associated LRP LRP Vector 8 #LRP50920 2800kv November 3, 2009
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53240 Dynamic 8 2200Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53270 Dynamic 8 2600Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53230 Dynamic 8 1800Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53235 Dynamic 8 2000Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 989 Sonic 1512 2100Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 993 Sonic 1512 5400Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 988 Sonic 1512 1800Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Castle Creations Neu/Castle 1515 - 2200CM January 19, 2009
1:8 Castle Creations Neu/Castle 2650CMS August 18, 2009
1:8 Hobby King Hobby King Turnigy Trackstar 22409 (1900Kv); 24519 (2100Kv); 32125 (2400Kv) April 22, 2014
1:8 Hobbywing Hobbywing 2000KV 4274 #90060000 XeRUN May 1, 2011
1:8 Hobbywing Hobbywing 2250KV 4168 #90060010 XeRUN May 1, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28813 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128271 (2100KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128272 (2500KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28817 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28812 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28815 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28816 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28818 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128270 (1900KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28819 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28811 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28814 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138806V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 8.5T "2400KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion Cirtix slotless sensored 8th motor 2200Kv, p/n CSL01 June 5, 2010
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138807V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 9.5T "2100KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion Cirtix slotless sensored 8th motor 2500Kv, p/n CSL02 June 5, 2010
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138805V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 7.5T "2700KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138803V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 5.5T "3900KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138804V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 6.5T "3200KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9420 1300kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9422 2100kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9421 1700kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Novak Electronics Novak Electronics 3800 - 3819 Ballistic 8 August 11, 2011
1:8 Tekin Tekin Tekin Redline T8 Gen 2 - Buggy Motors July 9, 2013
1:8 Tekin Tekin #4030 T8 All Winds October 1, 2009
1:8 Tekin Tekin #4038 T8 All Winds October 1, 2009
1:8 Tekin Tekin Tekin Redline T8i - Buggy Motors July 31, 2013
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A1900 - 1900KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A1400 - 1400KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A2100 - 2100KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A2400 - 2400KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1800B1/ VSE-B 1800Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1600B1/ VSE-B 1600Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE2450B1/ VSE-B 2450Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1400B1/ VSE-B 1400Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions V F - 8 (Series) March 23, 2014
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE2050B1/ VSE-B 2050Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011

:sold: Where do I sign up!

[longballlumber]

Mike you PROMISED to keep that picture private :Shame_on_You: and never post it on the internet :roflol: ! LOL.

2 motors, each time making changes in set up, same results, ok on an X642, or x440/3 but too slow. Basic boat design flaw. That boat hasn't seen water since those tests.

I understand Terry's frustrations with proven set ups baking NEW motors but I also accept the fact that WE push these motors beyond their intended limits. Some times through the grace of the FE racing Gods we get away with exceeding those limits. Some times those Gods frown down on us and say "not today". I accept the fact that I run my set ups to where I may, at any time, burn a motor. Do I enjoy finding that magic number (size prop that will toast a motor in a set up, then prop one size down), NO. Will having more motor options solve this problem, I don't know but I would like to have the option to try.

I don't think anyone is looking for more speed out of P-Limited. I would just personally like to see a few more motor options.

Sorry Tom, I should have left names out of my post. I my intention wasn't to throw you or you boat design under the bus. Simply, it was a situation where I could prove my point with additional information other than hot air. There is always more to the story for all of these cases.

I am on board with your post and I don't disagree with anything you said.

I think Darin said it best for me, I want to do our best to preserve the avenue that's been created to get new boaters involved. It's that situation that has allowed us to gain new racers into our club. I am not opposed to more motors on the list. We just need to make sure the added motors don't alienate those who are still running the RTR motors. At the club level, there is perception that we need to be conscious and concerned about.

Later

[Doby]

We don't disagree my friend, just having fun with you as you'd expect.

D.

I wood expekt nuth'in less....

[Doby]

So with the mother of all lists that Darin posted for approved motors in the car world, why doesn't the boating world do the same?

Come up with a list based on Manufacturers specs and be done with it, and grandfather in those already in use so those of us that don't burn up a motor every race don't have to change any of our present setups.

This shouldn't be that difficult.....or perhaps I'm over simplifying.

By the way...did anyone check all the winning motors at the recent FE Nats to see if anybody "cheated". Perhaps Neu motors were used by some and painted gold.

[DPeterson]

Correct. It was a general statement. I used to do returns for a hobby shop, sadly equipment fails and manufactures make mistakes. Tower has covered thousands in faulty equipment that I personally sent to them. Horizon sent the wrong esc for a repair, let me keep a 80 amp esc when I called for an IM 17. The point is these companies want our business, they want a solid reputation and they take pride in what they do. Why would they tell someone to kick rocks if the complaint was legit?
For the record - I have not asked or attempted to return any item from any Hobby vendor ever. If I wreck it I buy it. My attempt at Tower was to purchase 8 more 2030's. I told them that I wanted to purchase them from a more recent new inventory. They asked why and I told them. I was told that I was the first to bring any quality issue to their attention and that they have not recieved any 2030 returns. A flat out lie. Then my e-mails are forwarded over to AQ. Fool me once - shame on you. You know the rest.

[Darin Jordan]

Doug.... maybe ill go through that list and parked it down to only the motors of 2200KV or less....

And for the record, so as to NOT piss of Mr. Newland, I was only providing this list to show HOW this could be done. I'm not advocating this change.

It would work as a class, though.

[longballlumber]

OK... I am now lost.

* The list of motors above are all larger in diameter and length (much longer) than our current P-Limited motors.
* The list has KV #'s ranging from 1400 to 5000+
* A few motors on that list are currently running in the "full" P boats

There is nothing "limited" about that list of motors. Even if you limit the KV rating, they will be MUCH more motor than the current P-Limited offerings.

Dazed and Confused in Michigan...

[Darin Jordan]

OK... I am now lost.

* The list of motors above are all larger in diameter and length (much longer) than our current P-Limited motors.
* The list has KV #'s ranging from 1400 to 5000+
* A few motors on that list are currently running in the "full" P boats

There is nothing "limited" about that list of motors. Even if you limit the KV rating, they will be MUCH more motor than the current P-Limited offerings.

Dazed and Confused in Michigan...

Mike, I'm not sure you read my entire disclaimer... it was an EXAMPLE of how a list of motors could/should be spec'd... It was NOT suggested as a replacement/addition for P-Ltd.

Most of these motors would be competitive P motors...

[longballlumber]

Try this on for size... THIS is how you specify power systems for a class. ALL of these motors would work for P-LTD. They are all 550-sized, 4-Pole motors of various KVs, all spec'd to be competitive with each other in their class ( ROAR 1/8th Scale):

Sorry Darin,

Your sentence in bold seems to make the rest of the post confusing.

Later,
Ball

[Darin Jordan]

Sorry Darin,

Your sentence in bold seems to make the rest of the post confusing.

Later,
Ball

Yup... I can see that... Sorry. I don't always type out as clearly as I'm thinking! :confused1:

Or... maybe I'm not thinking clearly? :ohmy:

Either way, what I think I was trying to say was "as a class on it's own"... thinning out the list to the appropriate KVs, of course.

All of these motors are around the 1515 1Y size (1415 1Y as well).... so in that sense, it would be a "limited-P" class...

OK, I clearly need coffee... carry on... :doh:

[LuckyDuc]

We have several options:
1. Adjust our setups to accommodate the manufacturing variations we have with our current list of approved motors.
2. Hope that a RTR manufacturer releases something of better quality that fits within the NAMBA P-Ltd rule set:
---------------------------------------------------

NAMBA Rulebook section 28.D.1.d.iii:
iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:
(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.
(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.
(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event


3. Run at local clubs that offer other motor options in addition to the approved motor list.
4. Race the P power class instead of the P-Ltd class.

[HTVboats]

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0091p?&P=SM&C=CKF&V=CSE
Bang for the buck Castle motors are close to a Neu. I can't see a 40mm motor on a P lmt list. Not sure why the 2200 kv limit? A 1415 2400kv would turn smaller props in the 40-42mm range for light weight tunnel hulls and riggers. In my mind 45-47mm props even down at 1800kv is risky.
Mic

Is this whole discussion about better, cheaper, equality or just more options?

[ray schrauwen]

Why is the NEU 1410 2Y totally left out? it seems like a shoe in motor at a very reasonable price.
A castle motor seems very close to a Leopard or TP motor just more expensive. I don't ever recall NEU going and changing production to save a buck here or there like some other MNFCTR's. Neu does pride itself in consistent quality and are made in the USA. I figured this motor would have been a no brainer. Maybe, I'm the no brainer? :tongue::rules:
While i'm in the no brainer zone, if we went to D wind motors, one point of failure would be significantly reduced, the soldered windings inside the can.


http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0091p?&P=SM&C=CKF&V=CSE
Bang for the buck Castle motors are close to a Neu. I can't see a 40mm motor on a P lmt list. Not sure why the 2200 kv limit? A 1415 2400kv would turn smaller props in the 40-42mm range for light weight tunnel hulls and riggers. In my mind 45-47mm props even down at 1800kv is risky.
Mic

Is this whole discussion about better, cheaper, equality or just more options?

[Grimracer]

Sean.. I vote #2... (OK.. you know I would..lol...)

Truth is we feel we have finely nailed down what’s needed to keep em lit.. But are still not sure 100%, if they are better or not. When will the current load end (Quest for more speed).. It might never end. Matter of fact Im sure of it.

Take care man and I hope you don’t feel ill of me for my being the boat monkey here at Hobbico... We have to get along as a hobby group man. Nothing that has happen regarding the situation was intentional… believe me.. (others don’t)

To all reading…
I suspect we might never satisfy the need if there is no end or limiter.
If I gave you 10% more power and reliability WOULD you not take advantage of it.. of cource you would and so would I. We are after all racing.. It sounds like even going back to where we were with the 2030, it was not really satisfying the need. (One guy reported changing them just because they were looking nasty).. I get it.. Like a loose con rod to me.. OZ of prevention..

#4 is a great direction too. Rules already in place!

Im out of this one.. choose your weapon and pull the throttle and let her eat!

Grim

[D. Newland]

...... you guys do know that no one is going to win this right? everyone will just get in there little groups and grumble until we get a few more motor choises

Yes. It's an FE internet requirement that we go through this exercise every once and a while. Just to make sure we still have a pulse.

One thing is common, though. We all love this hobby and want to make it better.

[D. Newland]

42mm x 12mm (about 1/2 in wide and 1 1/2 long). The block to hold it is only slightly larger.

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/files/littelfuse/technical%20resources/documents/data%20sheets/littelfuse_automotive_bolt_down_fuse_bf1_32v.pdf


There is a time-delay so spikes above the rated value are not going to prematurely blow the fuse.

This price of $5.98 ea for 10 pieces can be way, way under-cut by buying in large volume. I'd bet at a few hundred pieces, the price would be less than half.

http://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Fuses-32V-2000A-pieces/dp/B00LVJXMHC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1409188962&sr=8-2&keywords=BF1+FUSE+32V

Found a better source. $3 each single units. In bulk (like 1000) we are talking $1-$1.50.


Whitey-Thanks for posting this. I actually looked at fusable wire a few years ago, as a similar concept to these fuses. The idea has merit, but I don't nearly have enough electrical knowledge to know if it would work.

My brainstorm idea a while ago was to have something like this for guys that want to race in P-Ltd with any P Motor they wanted, or use a motor from the P-Ltd list without the need to have a fuse.

Finding parity would be a never-ending thread, though. I'm fairly certain of that, so I back-burned the idea. Plus the fact that the production run variances of the motors requires a racer to stay on his toes, or risk results that started these threads in the first place.

I don't think it's necessary at this point, but I'd like to hear some feedback from you guys.

[raptor347]

Mic,
The 1415 CC/neu is lots more motor compared to the p-ltd list motors. I run an ABC 1816 (45.5mm) on my p-ltd rigger on the AQ 2030, for P hydro I just swap the 1415 CC/neu in and run the same prop and pick up 8 mph. I'm not having failures with either motor and the 1415 isn't even close to it's limit. I've made 99 mph passes with my heat race rigger on that motor with the right prop.

That prop (prepped the way I like it) on my boat (tuned the way I like it) and driven the way I tend to drive is what I've found to be the reliable limit of the AQ 2030 for me. Now if I take that setup out and drive poorly (choppy, overloading the corners, lane 20, cutting bouys etc.) I'll hurt the motor because I ran it too hard for too long. My combo is a 90 second full throttle combo, don't run it longer than that or the motor will be toast.

The only way to have a more robust motor is to run something with a higher wattage rating. For example, people are hurting 700 watt motors so we get a 1000 watt motor added to the list. Awesome, you've got a 30% safety margin. Only problem is the performance oriented racers (I'm one of them) will be putting 1000 watts to the prop in very short order.

I want to try Kevin's fuses. They look like they're worth a try. I like the idea of using a fuse as The fuse.

[Doug Smock]

I like the idea of using a fuse as The fuse. :bowdown:

Hey Brian,
I asked Bernie at Castle about fuses back (06?) when the Barracudas might burn as soon as you applied voltage. He advised against it due to the added resistance.
I think that it's worth testing at a lower loads around 80 to 90 amps. Where would you start for a limit?

[raptor347]

:bowdown:

Hey Brian,
I asked Bernie at Castle about fuses back (06?) when the Barracudas might burn as soon as you applied voltage. He advised against it due to the added resistance.
I think that it's worth testing at a lower loads around 80 to 90 amps. Where would you start for a limit?


Let me look at some of my data logs.

[ron1950]

guys what amp draw limit is the motors on the current list capable of or recommended?

[R.J.S]

Ron,glad u brought that up!I have a NIB AQ 2030 in my hand and on the box it states...Max constant current:50A...Max surge current:80A/5sec!

[Darin Jordan]

Let me look at some of my data logs.

According to all of my data logs, my AQ2030 powered P-LTD OPC Lynx tunnel draws 85-90A, with maximum spikes up around 110A...

Let's get some 90A fuses and go play... :)

[R.J.S]

So,could the "fuse" be the ESC?Maybe a 90A limit?

[Doby]

Most ESC's are underrated...90 amp controller could actually be good for 120 amps...just another variable to address (or not)

[tjcast]

Sorry Tom, I should have left names out of my post. I my intention wasn't to throw you or you boat design under the bus. Simply, it was a situation where I could prove my point with additional information other than hot air. There is always more to the story for all of these cases.

No worries Mike that part of my post was an attempt at humor, but your data supports the fact that when we run these motors at that level we will burn them up.

[D. Newland]

guys what amp draw limit is the motors on the current list capable of or recommended?

I recommend to keep tabs on your motor temperature rather than amp draw. I find it safer that way. Keep the temps @ 125 degrees. You'll find average amp draw around 80 to achieve this temp, but every set up is different.

Focus on motor temp. Start conservative. I have a 4 page manifesto completed. It will be posted in the Tips Section of this forum. My gift to anyone that wants to enjoy P-Ltd racing.

[Doug Smock]

I recommend to keep tabs on your motor temperature rather than amp draw. I find it safer that way. Keep the temps @ 125 degrees. You'll find average amp draw around 80 to achieve this temp, but every set up is different.

Focus on motor temp. Start conservative. I have a 4 page manifesto completed. It will be posted in the Tips Section of this forum. My gift to anyone that wants to enjoy P-Ltd racing.

Here it is fellas. http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?48263-P-Limited-Tuning-Tips-by-David-Newland

Really good stuff David! I put a sticky on it.
Thanks for taking the time to put it together.:thumbup1:

[Shooter]

Saw my name in a few posts. Figured I'd share....

Been running my original UL-1 motor for at least 2, maybe 3 years? (same motor I was using for the endbell heat sink thread, etc...). I beat the snot out of this motor (estimated 80-100 six lap sprints). I finally blew it up a few weeks ago. I replaced it with a brand new motor and 6 runs later....POOF!!!

Some notable differences.

1. The old motor is a darker gold color (see photo)
2. The new motor has '2030' stamped on the endbell
3. The new motor has the wires adjacent as opposed to the triangle configuration on the original (see photo)

Is it possible that we need to break a new motor in?? (i.e. run a few times with a 42x55 prior to hitting her with the H5's and 645's???). I know for a fact that I did this with my original motor.

[Grimracer]

:thumbup1:

[ron1950]

ok so how much does the esc have to do with burning these motors up? if I use a t120 and someone else uses a aq 60a esc if I run it hard will I burn the motor up and the guy with 60a esc burn up the esc? or am I way off here?

[Darin Jordan]

Here it is fellas. http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?48263-P-Limited-Tuning-Tips-by-David-Newland

Really good stuff David! I put a sticky on it.
Thanks for taking the time to put it together.:thumbup1:

I agree. Nicely done, David.

I really didn't read anything in there that I don't agree with.

I don't think that most racers realize how much time they are wasting chasing MPH. Dick Crow always used to tell me that he'd much rather give up some straight line speed in order to get around the corners faster. You have 12-corners in a race... 70ft in diameter (35ft radius), which is 220ft IF you are glued to the pins. 220ft, under the increased loads of cornering. 220ft at generally a slower speed than you can achieve in the straights.

1-2mph in the straights is NOTHING to give up if you can carry another 1-2mph through the turns.

And, frankly, from what I've seen, most racers don't NEED more speed to be competitive. They need to learn to hold their lanes, drive more smoothly, and race smart.

Just repeating a bunch of what David said. He's one of the best out there, and when you see his stuff run, you'll realize that he's speaking from experience.

[T.S.Davis]

According to all of my data logs, my AQ2030 powered P-LTD OPC Lynx tunnel draws 85-90A, with maximum spikes up around 110A.

........and here is why the spec is broken and we will not ever have another motor added to the list.

This is Darin normal setup right? Let's go with his lower average of 85 amps.

85x14.8 = 1258 watts continues. The 2030 isn't rated for that. It's not on the Tower spec sheet anymore. It does say 50 amps max.

Darin is averaging 170% of the rated amperage.

So is the motor under rated? Probably. That makes good business sense. Nice cushion to protect them.

Trouble is, we the people wrote the under rating into our rule book.

So a new manufacturer looking to get in the game has to put out a motor rated at 52.5 amps. If it's an honest rating the motor won't compete.

Not sure I've ever seen Proboat ratings in print.

[Darin Jordan]

........and here is why the spec is broken and we will not ever have another motor added to the list.

This is Darin normal setup right? Let's go with his lower average of 85 amps.

85x14.8 = 1258 watts continues. The 2030 isn't rated for that. It's not on the Tower spec sheet anymore. It does say 50 amps max.

Darin is averaging 170% of the rated amperage.

So is the motor under rated? Probably. That makes good business sense. Nice cushion to protect them.

Trouble is, we the people wrote the under rating into our rule book.

So a new manufacturer looking to get in the game has to put out a motor rated at 52.5 amps. If it's an honest rating the motor won't compete.

Not sure I've ever seen Proboat ratings in print.

Terry,

I don't really give much credence to posted ratings. They are marketing, or insurance/return-policy BS.

Let's forget amps... Let's talk Temps... My Lynx, using both the ICE Data Logging and lots and lots and lots of proper testing, NEVER comes in with a motor that is over 105-degrees... Usually it's 95-100...

The P-Ltd spec isn't "broken". It is what it is. I've burned up a few motors, both PB and AQ, but, as I've stated, they were all MY fault for finding that limit.

There WILL be more RTR power systems coming down the pike. I think the plan should be to make it as clear as possible wherever we may have influence to get the Mfgr's to put together packages that fit the "spec". Then, make it as easy as possible to get those power systems included on the approved motor list, or use the rest of the P-Limited power system rule to get the CD's to include them.

There is NO WAY you can convince me that, if another theory on motor selection is made, that people WON'T push those motors to the limit as well. The length-limits do help protect against that to some degree, but let's face it... people are STILL putting 1527+ sized motors into their <34" hulls and thinking they are putting together a sensible race package.

As long as there are racers, there will be broken parts. It's almost a Law, where racing is concerned.

[T.S.Davis]

Darin, it doesn't matter what makes sense.

The book tells us what the parameters for additional motors is. If a new motor comes along, that source will have to lie about their motor to compete with the 2030.

That was my point.

[LuckyDuc]

It will be difficult for a manufacturer to fudge the Mass and KV numbers. Rated amps and MSRP are a different story as you pointed out.
mass: 5% increase over AQU 2030 @212g = 222.6g
mass: 5% increase over Himax HB3630-1500 @ 225g = 236.25g
KV: 5% increase over "2030kv" is 2131.5

I don't think that we need an increase in mass or kv in any new RTR motor offering FWIW. Just more options to pick from when QC and supply issues present themselves. Having an alternative choice is important.

[Grimracer]

David N...

IF' AquaCraft was to update the 2030 for more durability would it have to be re-certified (if that's the process) for NAMBA Spec class racing.

Thanks in advance.

Grim

[Darin Jordan]

David N...

IF' AquaCraft was to update the 2030 for more durability would it have to be re-certified (if that's the process) for NAMBA Spec class racing.

Thanks in advance.

Grim

Grim.... per the existing rules:

(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.

[Luck as a Constant]

The rule book must look like the Declaration of Independence.

My head hurts from trying to read thru this thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grimracer]

simple.. very good.. enjoy the updated motors!

Grim

[PatrickM]

What improvements are being made and how will we be able to differentiate "updated" motors from the previous iterations?

[Brushless55]

Terry,

I don't really give much credence to posted ratings. They are marketing, or insurance/return-policy BS.

Let's forget amps... Let's talk Temps... My Lynx, using both the ICE Data Logging and lots and lots and lots of proper testing, NEVER comes in with a motor that is over 105-degrees... Usually it's 95-100...

The P-Ltd spec isn't "broken". It is what it is. I've burned up a few motors, both PB and AQ, but, as I've stated, they were all MY fault for finding that limit.

There WILL be more RTR power systems coming down the pike. I think the plan should be to make it as clear as possible wherever we may have influence to get the Mfgr's to put together packages that fit the "spec". Then, make it as easy as possible to get those power systems included on the approved motor list, or use the rest of the P-Limited power system rule to get the CD's to include them.

There is NO WAY you can convince me that, if another theory on motor selection is made, that people WON'T push those motors to the limit as well. The length-limits do help protect against that to some degree, but let's face it... people are STILL putting 1527+ sized motors into their <34" hulls and thinking they are putting together a sensible race package.

As long as there are racers, there will be broken parts. It's almost a Law, where racing is concerned.

Agreed...
these P Spec motors get pushed beyond what they were made for..

[darryl whitman]

I like the idea Darin , so if u limited to can size 3670, kv size 1500kv to 2200kv , and esc 's to 120 amp.an batteries
4s at 4.2v per cell , with a 100.00$ motor claim, I feel this would keep it fun an fair, on a budget boat class racing.

[darryl whitman]

oh ya P spec class , just drop it,

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, build your boats with easy in easy out motor mounts. You could swap out a motor for every heat. Don't know why I didn't think of it before.

[T.S.Davis]

Grim, the NAMBA rule book basically uses your spec as the rule. Have AQ change the rating on the updated motors to 10 amps. The 50 amp rating on the current motor is completely ignored by us racing tools so it won't matter if it's rated at 10. But then any new motors will have to be rated at 10.5 amps. No new motors ever. Unless they fake it. The rating doesn't meaning anything unless you're reading the book.

Not a dig on you Mike. Just pointing out the fallacy of the rule. The parameters for new offerings has to be ignored and simply be rated corrrctly. So I could have a motor produced that is capable of 200 amps continuous and rate it at 50 as long as my cost and weight are okay. That would be horse crap but the rule book allows it.

If you think about it, Proboat is in a great position. They could produce anything they wanted. Keep the price and weight right. Use the same model numbers and call it a generational change as long as they kept the rating the same. Although, I don't think they ever had an amp rating so it might be tough.

[properchopper]

Doug, build your boats with easy in easy out motor mounts. You could swap out a motor for every heat. Don't know why I didn't think of it before.


Way ahead of you, Sir. Here in SoCal we don't mess around with that silly "correct tuning stuff". We just run 'em, melt them, & quick-change them :thumbup1:

120219120220


Dual pickups & ducted cooling fans sometime help

120221120222


Of course we all have one of these for standing at freeway off-ramps

120223

[TheShaughnessy]

So you think manufactures are just pulling a number out of a hat to rate the amp draw of a certain motor. I find that laughable. I'm sure they tested it to come up with tha number.

Brian has mentioned this before, it's not just amps that kill motors it's the heat build from pulling excessive amps that fries them. The AQ motor is rated at 50 amps and many of us have data logs that show them coping with that just fine. It also has a 5 sec 80 rating. So the motor ca handle the 80 amps if let's say its in an OPC where the motor has air and water cooling, dissipate the heat and the motor survives.

I really don't think the numbers are as bogus as you are suggesting. Find another motor with a 50 amp rating and Ill guarantee I can push it past that and keep it alive, not for 10 min at a time but it will do it.

[ray schrauwen]

So you think manufactures are just pulling a number out of a hat to rate the amp draw of a certain motor. I find that laughable. I'm sure they tested it to come up with tha number.

Brian has mentioned this before, it's not just amps that kill motors it's the heat build from pulling excessive amps that fries them. The AQ motor is rated at 50 amps and many of us have data logs that show them coping with that just fine. It also has a 5 sec 80 rating. So the motor ca handle the 80 amps if let's say its in an OPC where the motor has air and water cooling, dissipate the heat and the motor survives.

I really don't think the numbers are as bogus as you are suggesting. Find another motor with a 50 amp rating and Ill guarantee I can push it past that and keep it alive, not for 10 min at a time but it will do it.

$30.00 Worth a shot? :

KV: 2200
Max Current: 55A
Max Power: 1150W
Idle Current: 2.8A
Resistance: 0.017Ω
Shaft: Φ5.0mm
Weight: 260g
Suggested ESC: 70A
Cell count: 3~5SLipo
Bolt holes spacing: 25mm
Bolt thread: M3.0*4
Gold Connection: Φ4.0

[T.S.Davis]

The motors are regularly run at 80 amps despite the rating.

I'm not sure why people are struggling with what I'm saying. The rule book says +5% of AQ ' S rating. We all run over the rating. The rating means nothing. So a RTR company.....AQ, PB, TFL, Atomik could spit out an honest 50 amps and be useless or they can spit out a make believe 50 amp rating.

Point is the rule is BS.

[PatrickM]

The real point is that the rule is BS because the manufacturers' marketing departments opted to knowingly publish ratings that are BS. This marketing practice is very common in the hobby industry because of the lack of regulation... nobody really gives a crap because RC boating's market share is too small. Each manufacturers' reasons for overstatement or understatement are their own, but I'm sure can run from one-upping the competition to concerns over liability. AQ could very well be emulating (IMO, doubtful) something similar to the UL rating system for fuses, i.e.: A fuse will survive its rated value indefinitely. the same fuse will survive at 130% of it's rated value for a given period of time, 150% of its value for a shorter period of time, etc., etc., until it fails.

As a former manufacturer, I gained a lot of insight into the business practices of the hobby world.... it ain't all fun and games.... wait!, let me rephrase that... it ain't all fun, but there's a lot of games!

[Darin Jordan]

I don't think I've ever seen any published specs for any of the ProBoat or Dynamite motors. KV and motor dimensions only. Doesn't matter now either way.

It is of note that a bone stock Miss Geico pulls 60+ amps.... so I guess it's breaking the perceived ratings right out of the box.

Reminds me of the muscle car days when the factory ratings were used for insurance purposes. Yeah..... SURE a 455 Super Duty Pontiac only had 370hp... :)

[Grimracer]

We have a set of tests that are done on the motors to qualify the output. (its a standard test for all brushless motors we offer). The load parameters change and the temp and time metrics also change based on the mass and type of motor it is...poles and what not..


So... believe the specs or not.. your deal. THEY are NOT just a shot in the dark.

Im sure i have convinced nobody of this.... just letting those interested that testing is done.. the numbers come from this testing.

On we go..

Grim

[jfrancisco892]

A spec class always involves pushing the limiting factor to the edge of disaster. This will happen regardless of what motor is chosen.

[PatrickM]

Yes, on we go.....

Without a common set of parameters for testing, every manufacturer will continue to use (invent?) their own system for determining the advertised ratings of their products. I'm not singling out AQ, PB or any other manufacturer. It is an issue that has only become a problem with the NAMBA spec motors. The powers that be should not have used advertised specs to choose legal P-Limited power sources. Since I was not involved in the process, I can only surmise that factory specs were include only as means of simplification. This must have been accepted to avoid the necessity to extensively test each manufacturers offerings on an individual basis. We are only FE boat racers... unlike ROAR we do not have the manpower or facilities to offer product testing to the manufacturers or the ability to compile approved motor lists for the racers.

Are there any racers out there who are willing and have the ability to provide the means for this type of service?

If not, then there is no solution and those who don't agree with the status quo will simply have to continue on the path to divide the country regarding spec motors and opt for another "one manufacturer" spec.

BTW. I've never torched an AQ or PB motor and the local guys will tell you that my boats are usually the fastest in any given P-Limited class.... unfortunately, at this age, I simply can't drive worth a crap.:smile:

[T.S.Davis]

It is of note that a bone stock Miss Geico pulls 60+ amps.... so I guess it's breaking the perceived ratings right out of the box

Actually, if they had included the rating on the motors in their literature then 60 amps would have been the law.

As it was, we allowed the PB motors without ever knowing what they were rated for.

[DPeterson]

PatrickM - simply refreshing to know that there are those out there that can see through the fog and better yet speak about it.

For your question on post 133 call Tower Hobbies. I guarantee it will be a memorable experience.

[Shooter]

Dual pickups & ducted cooling fans sometime help

Is that a fan SHROUD?????:w00t: ha ha ha!!! I remember you being a 'fan of the fan'. You've really evolved the concept!!!!

[Shooter]

a spec class always involves pushing the limiting factor to the edge of disaster. This will happen regardless of what motor is chosen.

yes.

[Darin Jordan]

Actually, if they had included the rating on the motors in their literature then 60 amps would have been the law.

As it was, we allowed the PB motors without ever knowing what they were rated for.

You guys have really lost sight of the facts here.... AQ and PB motors DEFINE this class. The motors ARE the class. The class didn't "allow" the motors.

[Brushless55]

edit....

[RandyatBBY]

Darin When I first previewed the class in 2008 Nats the reason was price of motor and a decent amount of power at that price. There was not Leopard's on the market. If we as racers were to change it up in the district....all the better, Doug just might come up with cost savings. Nothing is written in stone, we as a group can make it what ever we want.

[Brushless55]

Darin When I first previewed the class in 2008 Nats the reason was price of motor and a decent amount of power at that price. There was not Leopard's on the market. If we as racers were to change it up in the district....all the better, Doug just might come up with cost savings. Nothing is written in stone, we as a group can make it what ever we want.

is that the thread of the TP motors ??
I'm wanting to try one in my P-ltd hydro

[RandyatBBY]

David N...

IF' AquaCraft was to update the 2030 for more durability would it have to be re-certified (if that's the process) for NAMBA Spec class racing.

Thanks in advance.

Grim
Now this is what I am looking for. make it and we will buy it. I applaud YOU!

[T.S.Davis]

You guys have really lost sight of the facts here.... AQ and PB motors DEFINE this class. The motors ARE the class. The class didn't "allow" the motors.

Without the rule set there is no class though. It's just a bunch of like minds getting together. The trouble is the specs on the motors are smoke and mirrors... haha Sorry bad choice of word. How about an illusion? Even if PB had put a rating on their motors it might not have been based on the same test procedure that AQ uses, or Neu, or Leapord, or TP. I don't believe there is a standard. Would be cool of such a thing did exist. A "Brushless Motor Rating standard".

Now that the Dynamite motors are history we'll want/need to add some motors somehow. How to match? IDK Might just come down to get close and hope for the best.

A club can still do exactly what Doug's gang is doing. Find something sane and make it their club spec. Then if it works share the findings. That's how the limited classes came to exist. That's how any class comes to be.

Is nobody going to ask? Mike, how are the motors being updated? I remember we exchanged some ideas last winter but I'm sure some of my ideas were less than practical.

[Grimracer]

I will be out of the shop for a few days getting my "sanity on" (the Indy Masters of Hobart).. No motor bitching at that race…. (it’s a piston race)
After that I will post up the changes with pictures.
So you know some of the changes were changes that FE races were asking for, others necessary dew to unforeseen changes.
Also just to clear this up.. the color of the anodizing means nothing more than the color is different. It does not mean a generation change or.. slower.. or faster or… whatever..
And to Doug,
The information tower sales associates have on any product they sell are the same information you see in the “notes” in the bottom of the product page. You can also see “product status” on the bar to the right. You have the same info they have..(well besides personal information that they “of course” cannot release).
That’s all I know about Tower (Im not even in that building).. Except the cat that heads it up is a really nice guy and works his tail off trying to manage all those people and products..

Update and pics when I get back..
Grim

[Darin Jordan]

I don't believe there is a standard. Would be cool of such a thing did exist. A "Brushless Motor Rating standard".

Good Luck with that one, my friend. Would just add cost to the motors anyhow!

As has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times now, we're a pretty small group. These manufactures aren't going to change their ways for NAMBA or IMPBA or model boating in general. AND, our organizations are pretty limited on resources, so developing and maintaining one on our own may not be feasible.

So, what do you do?

One would think by now that we should know, especially one with some experience in the area of testing these motors, that worrying about "spec'd amps", "rated watts", or even "spec'd KV", is really kind of a waste of time, given motors that are identical dimensions, weights, number of poles, rotor/stator lengths, etc. You are only going to get a limited amount of power out of the package. You might do it with KV, or with torque, but either way, the final output is going to be about the same. And without more mass, a different number of poles, more windings (=more weight), longer rotors and stators, etc., well... that's it. Watts is Watts.

Internal differences, such as magnet shapes, etc., are really NOT going to be controllable, able to be specified, etc. They are what they are.

All of the dimensions I mentioned above are easily measurable/comparable.

Our current P-LTD rules are setup around motors that are fairly equal in the measurements and standards that count. Even the can length (56mm for AQ vs. 50mm for the PB/DYN offerings) are negligible and insignificant, since the rotors and stators measure to be the same length. AQ just has/had (The last batch of PB/DYN motors increased the can length to 56mm) more room for the wires exiting the can.

I think I would start any power system discussion by finding a list of motors in the appropriate/desired KVs that meet these very basic dimensions.

If you start altering pole counts, then I suspect some kind of allowance or ??? is going to have to be discovered that will keep things similar.

Obviously, some actual testing of the proposed motors would need to take place.

[T.S.Davis]

Darin, we're actually trying to find some 50mm TFL motors as we think the 60mm version is/has TOO much potential.

Mass, dims, KV, mass produced and distributed in RTR's? Should get us close in theory.

A 3650 Leopard might be close too but it isn't available in an RTR which is still part of the equation in my opinion. Same problem with the TP 3630 10D. Too much potential. Plus that exceeds the 5% size increase and isn't available in an RTR. A Neu would be like taking gun to a stick fight IMO. You could push that till the flex shaft breaks. Plus no RTR distribution.

Darin, see if PB is interested in the SSS or Leopard motors. Known quantities and would save a ton of headache.

[Darin Jordan]

...but it isn't available in an RTR which is still part of the equation in my opinion.

While I share your opinion on this, it does make you wonder about the last of the 3 options on that listing in the rules:


(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event.

I'm sure we don't need to get into "rule lawyer-ing", but the way that rule is written, a), b), and c) are three separate and distinct options for:


iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:

In other words... the CD may allow the following: a), b), and/or c)...

Am I correct or off base on this? Hmmmmm....

[D. Newland]

Darin, you're exactly right. That rule verbage is only for motors to be allowed to race that aren't on the "approved" list. I put it there to help get a motor "legal" while we worked through the actual rule proposal to get it on the list.

Terry-Your district can propose a Neu 1527 1D to the P-Ltd Motor list in the next NAMBA Propwash, if you think it's a good idea. it will ruin the class, IMO, but you guys can do it. And, I'm using the 1527 as an extreme example.

ANY motor that gets proposed better be vetted. There are just as many that will leave P-Ltd racing if the rule is changed as there are threatening to leave if nothing gets done. Please understand that.

As I've stated many times, I don't feel P-Ltd needs a motor list change right now.

And, we went with our gut, as well as some simple parameters, regarding the current motor list. Weight, size, Kv, and what we were seeing on the water. We didn't dive into the Manufacturers specs to see if they should make the list, or not, for the reasons stated earlier in this thread.

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, I get it. The motor we're looking at isn't some power monster that would offset the class to pieces. I'm out on a limb suggesting it would become an RTR offering. I can suggest all I want but if the numbers don't jive it wont happen no matter what I think.

I should have thrown "reasonably priced" in my other post. Size, weight, KV, available RTR, and price.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, you're exactly right.

Well... THAT sure doesn't happen very often! Don't let my wife know! :hug1:


As I've stated many times, I don't feel P-Ltd needs a motor list change right now.

I don't think so either (not sure if that's clear from my postings)... I'm certain that additional motors will become available naturally over time anyhow, which may exercise part b) of the rule.

I don't think it hurts, however, to have some groups/clubs do some testing just to see what future options might be available/viable. Seems prudent.

I do think it's a mistake, however, for clubs to start venturing off in distinctly different directions from a "let's all race together" standpoint (Nationals, etc.), but those only happen once a year, so it's probably not that important for the overall hobby.

[R.J.S]

Darin,don't think anyone has asked and I was just wondering...what motor is PB putting in IM31's and BJ29's these days?

[Darin Jordan]

Darin,don't think anyone has asked and I was just wondering...what motor is PB putting in IM31's and BJ29's these days?

I think the IM31s are out of stock ("on Backorder"), and the BJ29's that are on the shelf would have the same PB/DYN 1800's they've always had.

I believe that, if anything new were to be supplied, it would begin in an updated version of an existing hull, or a new boat all together.

I'm not sure whether or not they have more IM31's on the way.

[R.J.S]

Thanks f the reply Darin...big changes at PB as well as AQ!

[Namba328]

Darin, you're exactly right. That rule verbage is only for motors to be allowed to race that aren't on the "approved" list. I put it there to help get a motor "legal" while we worked through the actual rule proposal to get it on the list.

Terry-Your district can propose a Neu 1527 1D to the P-Ltd Motor list in the next NAMBA Propwash, if you think it's a good idea. it will ruin the class, IMO, but you guys can do it. And, I'm using the 1527 as an extreme example.

ANY motor that gets proposed better be vetted. There are just as many that will leave P-Ltd racing if the rule is changed as there are threatening to leave if nothing gets done. Please understand that.

As I've stated many times, I don't feel P-Ltd needs a motor list change right now.

And, we went with our gut, as well as some simple parameters, regarding the current motor list. Weight, size, Kv, and what we were seeing on the water. We didn't dive into the Manufacturers specs to see if they should make the list, or not, for the reasons stated earlier in this thread.


why not add the neu 1515 2D its a 2050kv so close to the aquacraft 2030kv and its only $210. However if it was my opinion Dave. We should make this change about the size of the can and a kv range instead of a goofy rtr spec crap. Now I personally haven't blown up a aquacraft 2030kv motor yet(knocks on wood) and I have a gen 1 and 3 gen 2's and I've been one of the lucky ones but I run smaller boats. I also run very efficient hulls only due to my nitro back ground. But I can say that I've personally have ran as big of a prop as a x645 and a balanced and sharpened s-15 on my p-ltd rigger and Im running aquacraft 60amp esc's with added DIY 3000uf cap banks. I've also ran seaking/atomik 60amp esc's with out cap banks and had no problems. But like I said earlier in this lil rant. We outa make this class restrictions based on the size of the can and come up with a kv range that's lets say 1500kv to no more the 2100kv that way people can afford to budget race and still be competitive. Because there are a few racers who are just starting out or started running this class in these last few years and I'd hate to see them all leave cause we change the rules and allow much more powerful more expensive motors into this class and thus making there current setups obsolete. Just my $.02 as a going on 17year racer of these wonderful toys in this awesome hobby.

[Grimracer]

120289120290120291


Well.. I got some time so............
The changes are.......
Segmented Magnets
Carbon Fiber mag wrap
Fiberglass wire sleeves
Heavy insulating varnish on .013" hard copper wires
Updated stator construction

That’s all I got.. Choose your weapon!
I am out of here.. time to go racing and lets let the chips fall where they might. I am signed off…
Grimracer

[rayzerdesigns]

ok guys..i will throw my 2 cents in here..as being a newbie this year..i dont know why these guys burn up motors..until last month all i had was p limited boats..i read up on all the posts i could find..then went and purchased a aq2030 as that as what all the fast guys i could see winning were using..i have raced that cat all season along with countless batteries sport boating...i pulled that motor and put a bigger motor in that cat to go faster...that didnt last..destroyed that hull..well in went the 2030 into another cat..all be it im not great on setups..but that motor is still in my new cat and running strong..maybe i have a good one..but i do have a spare..i have been in the rc industry for over 25 years..all electric..and i doubt anyone can call my cat slow..but you just have to use some common sense..when i test a new setup..im all about stopping and temping motor after a minute or two..ive had far more speedo failures in my boats than motors...ok well except for my modern..thats another story..any motor is going to blow up or melt..whatever you want to call it if abused...i for one DO NOT want to loose the p limited classes..its what got me into this hobby..spec is and always will be a hard class..if you look into car racing..more people spend more on stock?spec motors and things to go fast with them than a modified motor..yes the parametes are thier also..but you will always see people blow up a stock motor much more frequently than a modified one..why...because they push the limits to get the most out of them..the boating scen in my eyes hasnt seen the like of cycling and charging at 40 plus amps of batteries..well maybe a few of us..but i love the spec classes..speeds are fast enough and def more entries...i for one want to race the most amount of people..not have 2 or 3 boats in a class..if you dont like the spec classes, then dont run them..but dont hate on the ones that do and enjoy it..and to agree with mr newland..the spec class is what is bringing in newer people to race..including myself..rant over..when is our season starting david??

[rayzerdesigns]

I would like to suggest, in all this discussion, that we all keep in mind one pretty important point:

The whole nature of this class STARTED with the introduction of the RTR SV27, and was quickly followed up with the UL-1, Miss Geico, IM31, Revolt, Motley Crew, etc.... Now TFL is entering the mix, and it looks to me like Atomix/Venom and maybe even Traxxas could offer entries as some point here.

RTR offerings, and RTR power systems, are the very BASIS for the existence of the P-LTD framework. The classes, to this very day, are FILLED with Revolts and Miss Geicos and Mystics and Motley Crews and Lucas Oils and BlackJack 29s, etc.

Some of you may not see this in your areas, but in areas with a LOT of growth and a lot of Nitro converts, or FE newbies, these boats form the BASIS with which they enter into the racing ranks. I can provide pictures from the 2014 NAMBA Nationals with Nitro FE converts racing in the Exhibition FE classes and standing on the podium in classes like P-Mono, smiling and holding their AQ Revolts. (Heck, one was ALMOST standing up there with a very over-powered IM31.. :)

These RTRs are the very FOUNDATION of many racing organizations and race classes in NAMBA. Without them, you would simply NOT have the amount of participation that we enjoy today.

Anything you do with motor rules NEEDS to keep these offerings in mind. Anything you specify needs to be competitive with THEM, not the other way around.

And for those who think that the RTRs aren't or can't be competitive, all you have to do is look at the race entries for many of these classes, especially the Mono and Cat classes. At least out here, there are RTR hulls that are usually on the podium, or not far off the pace. Maybe we're just all beginners?? :blink:

AND, every one of these drivers at some point, decides they want to do more, and show up with Mean Machines or some other custom built creation, with their RTR power system on board, and begin moving up in the ranks.

It's all starting, however, with that off-the-shelf offerings, those pesky Ready-to-Run boats, that got these drivers started... and hooked... on this incredibly fun racing pass-time.

very well said darin

[rayzerdesigns]

Because your boats do 21 laps per month? Plus, which generation of motor are you talking about? A motor that took Pete a couple years to injure was replaced with a motor that survived 6 runs. Pete's not doing anything crazy with his setups that I've seen. Although, without data, that might be a ridiculous statement. Someone could have slipped into his house and changed his setup between motors so that the new motor was drawing another 30 amps or something. Cuz that happens all the time.

The attraction, I think/thought, to limited classes is/was the low cost. Now there are superior motors for the same or less cost but we've boxed ourselves into a corner with the motor spec. There we will stay. I let it happen too. I was part of the process. Blew it. Sorry guys.

Doesn't matter. I'll get out. This will be my last season on them. I clearly don't have the skill to race in such a technically demanding class. Maybe when there are no motors NAMBA will figure out a solution.

It's much like N1. It wasn't until the class was nearly completely uncontested that a change was possible. The argument was EXACTLY the same then.
"You can't make a brushed motor fast because you lack the skill. If you had any ability you wouldn't need a better motor"

DéjÃ*!** vu

Another fun one was LiPo vs NiMh. "you just want to throw power at your setups instead of working them and tweaking them to get the most out of them".
That one also included "we're all gonna die" arguments to add to the joy.

DéjÃ*!** vu

Nayman said it best "it's like pushing a rope"

i have a newer verrsion im sure terry..and can guarantee at least 60 to 70 batteries through it..still runs stron..i do have a spare..but its still in the box

[D. Newland]

..when is our season starting david??

Between my renewed interest in OSE forums and my 2400 word thesis on P-ltd motors, I knew I was forgetting something!

[rayzerdesigns]

simple.. very good.. enjoy the updated motors!

Grim

really..im in..make them please..lol..jk..i still rock my original 2030

[rayzerdesigns]

120289120290120291


Well.. I got some time so............
The changes are.......
Segmented Magnets
Carbon Fiber mag wrap
Fiberglass wire sleeves
Heavy insulating varnish on .013" hard copper wires
Updated stator construction

That’s all I got.. Choose your weapon!
I am out of here.. time to go racing and lets let the chips fall where they might. I am signed off…
Grimracer

when are these going to be made available michael

[Doug Smock]

120289120290120291


Well.. I got some time so............
The changes are.......
Segmented Magnets
Carbon Fiber mag wrap
Fiberglass wire sleeves
Heavy insulating varnish on .013" hard copper wires
Updated stator construction

That’s all I got.. Choose your weapon!
I am out of here.. time to go racing and lets let the chips fall where they might. I am signed off…
Grimracer

Thank you sir.

[DPeterson]

Grim

Except the cat that heads it up is a really nice guy and works his tail off trying to manage all those people and products..

Best to have this guy call me. 608-393-7960 And best to distance yourself from this issue. Not sure why you want to be in the middle. As you said you do not work for them. They should not have forwarded my communications with them to you. They did not inform me of this and I did not authorize it.

Absolutely laughable on how many Business/Marketing fails took place by Tower Hobbies AQ in the last couple years on selling rtr boats and equipment. No. 1 - Know and understand your customers needs and requirements. 2. - Monitor, analize and react to changing marketing conditions. 3. - Secure and control your supplier network. 4. - Maintain a quality control level satisfactory to meet customers requirements. 5. - Maintain a high level of Customer service.
These are all Business and marketing basics 101. IMO none of these were met. I know these are not fortune 500 companies, but come on.

Stranger yet - where was Proboat when all this implosion was taking place? You see an opening and you take it.

Even stranger - the motor price went up and the quality went down. And according to all these threads - it's all our (the customers) fault. LOL.

Doug

[ray schrauwen]

120289120290120291


Well.. I got some time so............
The changes are.......
Segmented Magnets
Carbon Fiber mag wrap
Fiberglass wire sleeves
Heavy insulating varnish on .013" hard copper wires
Updated stator construction

That’s all I got.. Choose your weapon!
I am out of here.. time to go racing and lets let the chips fall where they might. I am signed off…
Grimracer

NIce motor man! No more Grimm :huh:

[Grimracer]

Doug,

I understand you are done with tower and Aquacraft..

You have a FE race plan.. sounds like one that might work out for ya..

Im done with this thread and want others to know I have ZERO hard feelings for you or your decisions..

Grimracer

[Brushless55]

Doug,

I understand you are done with tower and Aquacraft..

You have a FE race plan.. sounds like one that might work out for ya..

Im done with this thread and want others to know I have ZERO hard feelings for you or your decisions..

Grimracer

I love everything you do for us Grim!
just wish I had a spare AQ2030 motor for this weekends finals at NAMBA20 for my P-ltd rigger :biggrin:
I got a speedo wet last time out and it blew the esc and motor :cursing:

[Luck as a Constant]

I love everything you do for us Grim!
:

I second that http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/03/8amana6a.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Namba328]

when are these going to be made available michael

yes Mike when by chance will these motors be available? I'm intrigued.

[revoltrunner]

I will be out of the shop for a few days getting my "sanity on" (the Indy Masters of Hobart)..
he's gone racing. you could go to Hobart and ask him.

[T.S.Davis]

he's gone racing. you could go to Hobart and ask him.

Yeah, where IS his sense of priority? haha

[revoltrunner]

Yeah, where IS his sense of priority? haha
seems to be right where it ought to be....LOL
have a great time Grim

[Namba328]

well im now with the many of you who have blown one of these latest motors/esc's up. This is in my p-ltd rigger. I was running a turnigy 45c-90c nano tech 4s lipo and the aquacrap 60amp esc and 2030 motor. I got to the 4th bouy after taking off from the shore on my first heat yesterday. I was running a stainless prather 220 and this is the aftermath. Motor and obviously esc is gone.
120502
120503

From the looks of things the esc had a failure internally and it fried the motor as well. The aluminum cooling case on the esc has holes that are melted through. Im just glad it didn't set the brush on fire where it ran into the shore and my battery is ok.

[Namba328]

well im now with the many of you who have blown one of these latest motors/esc's up. This is in my p-ltd rigger. I was running a turnigy 45c-90c nano tech 4s lipo and the aquacrap 60amp esc and 2030 motor. I got to the 4th bouy after taking off from the shore on my first heat yesterday. I was running a stainless prather 220 and this is the aftermath. Motor and obviously esc is gone.
120502
120503

From the looks of things the esc had a failure internally and it fried the motor as well. The aluminum cooling case on the esc has holes that are melted through. Im just glad it didn't set the brush on fire where it ran into the shore and my battery is ok.

and there was no water inside so I know that didn't cause any of this to happen.

[ray schrauwen]

Hey, the motor night still be o.k. :wink: slight chance...

[Chilli]

Were you using the stock bullets??

[Namba328]

Were you using the stock bullets??

Nope I was running 6.5 on motor and 5.5 on battery

[Namba328]

whats really weird is my cap bank didn't even go off?

[Darin Jordan]

I was running a stainless prather 220 and this is the aftermath. Motor and obviously esc is gone.

My initial thoughts on this are going to go completely against popular opinion (which just means that a lot of people THINK something... doesn't mean it's correct)...

Not enough prop.

It's pretty amazing how amps drop and things cool down when you actually get the boat running efficiently.

Either way, it doesn't sound like this is a "motor quality" issue. I'd suggest that at least 80% of these failures people are having aren't. But, unless you are running data logging and can review the conditions, I'm pretty sure there won't be any convincing the majority out there of this.

[Namba328]

This is what's left of my electronics. I believe it was a esc problem looking at the crazy lump and hole where the aluminum casing/ watercooled sleve melted but maybe it was a motor issue idk.
120509
120510
120511
120512
120513

[Namba328]

Damage inside of the tub.
120514
120515

[Namba328]

My initial thoughts on this are going to go completely against popular opinion (which just means that a lot of people THINK something... doesn't mean it's correct)...

Not enough prop.

It's pretty amazing how amps drop and things cool down when you actually get the boat running efficiently.

Either way, it doesn't sound like this is a "motor quality" issue. I'd suggest that at least 80% of these failures people are having aren't. But, unless you are running data logging and can review the conditions, I'm pretty sure there won't be any convincing the majority out there of this.

Darin this was the first time out with this boat so I wanted to put something that was smaller but not to small and currently on my p-ltd sport ive been running either a x442 that's cupped up or a x440/3 that been cupped and haven't had any issues with amps or overheating. I think that this esc was just done. And 2 it lost radio turned left and drove itself into this nice dry bush along the shoreline. So I believe the esc shorted out before it shorted out the motor.

[Namba328]

My initial thoughts on this are going to go completely against popular opinion (which just means that a lot of people THINK something... doesn't mean it's correct)...

Not enough prop.

It's pretty amazing how amps drop and things cool down when you actually get the boat running efficiently.

Either way, it doesn't sound like this is a "motor quality" issue. I'd suggest that at least 80% of these failures people are having aren't. But, unless you are running data logging and can review the conditions, I'm pretty sure there won't be any convincing the majority out there of this.

What prop would you recommend me run on this boat? My setup will be a 2030 and 60amp seaking and turnigy nanotech 4s 45-90c 5000mah lipos. The boat weighs (on a digital fish scale) RTR 3lb 9oz.

[RandyatBBY]

I was there at the race how tom described it is how it happened. Tommy knows boats this was clearly a motor ESC failure. Not operator error.
I would start with a 42X55. when I get to the shop I will look at prop chart.

If you can afford the 120 I would recommend it. Matt had a graft of the run he had and was pulling 107 amps at times.

[tlandauer]

Just for my curiosity, what is the sequence? which part had gone bad first? ( may be I didn't read correctly and missed that part).

[T.S.Davis]

None of these motors should be this temperamental. We've been told "start small, check heat, little bit more, check heat, microscopic changes, check heat, make sure the boat is running free". Now guys have to not only go conservative on props but be aggressive enough or......fr'shizzle?

How would a new guy get into this class? Sounds like the setups are too finicky for average humans. I sure hope the new version of these is more forgiving.

My son grabbed the wrong prop out of our box the other day. The sprint prop instead of the offshore prop. 3mm difference. Motor came in at 128 degrees after 11 laps. Not super hot but that tell tale whisp of smoke came out of the hatch. It's surely baked. User error. Darin's 80%. Only the 3rd run on the motor too. Our fault but bummer. Especially because we race this weekend and know it's going to fail. Not might fail. Will fail........just don't know when. He'll go back to his offshore prop but it's likely too late.

[T.S.Davis]

Tommy, a Seaking120 is a good option if you're going to buy a fresh speedo. Cost about the same as a AQ.

Turnigy sells one that is the same thing.

[ezhitz]

I wonder if you where to restrict the C rating on the packs to 30-35 c if that would help. I know my sons motor only ever ran above a 100 f was when he tried a 65c dinogy.
But then again there could be just as many motors burning up on the lower c ratings anyway.

[ray schrauwen]

An M440 3 blade works well in my lsh...

[ray schrauwen]

UP there... I d/t'd my 440 3 blade, runs very nice. Not super fast but, runs very stable.


Darin this was the first time out with this boat so I wanted to put something that was smaller but not to small and currently on my p-ltd sport ive been running either a x442 that's cupped up or a x440/3 that been cupped and haven't had any issues with amps or overheating. I think that this esc was just done. And 2 it lost radio turned left and drove itself into this nice dry bush along the shoreline. So I believe the esc shorted out before it shorted out the motor.

[Namba328]

Tommy, a Seaking120 is a good option if you're going to buy a fresh speedo. Cost about the same as a AQ.

Turnigy sells one that is the same thing.

Hmmmm my dad does have one maybe ill use his for this next race and order me one. His has been completely sprayed with conformable spray and waterproofed that way and it has a etti cap bank. That should be ok correct?

[tlandauer]

Just for my curiosity, what is the sequence? which part had gone bad first? ( may be I didn't read correctly and missed that part).

I meant did the motor took out the ESC or vice versa?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk 2

[Namba328]

Im going to make a new thread about prop choices for a p-ltd rigger that way Im not cluttering up this thread. Thanks for the insight everyone. I just figured I'd show my recent problem with the aquacraft 2nd gen motor and esc. The new motor is a 2nd gen but its had only one lap run time put on it. It was in a brand new boat that I build and I broke a brand new cable after one lap in open water so its been on the shelf ever since. So ill put it with a hrc cooling can and a seaking 120amp esc in the rigger for the next race on the 20-21. But ill make a new thread asking for suggestions for props. Thanks again

[RandyatBBY]

Well James Davis is running a FE30, 2030, UL-1 ESC, 4S1P and a 1445 prop twice he has got one run or less both the motor and the ESC went out. It happened this weekend too. In my SS30 I run the 2030, UL-1 ESC, 4S1P and a H10 prop My motors and ESC's are about 3 years old no problems at all. The 220 prop is 1.72 dia.X2.5 pitch, the H-10 is 1.825 diaX3. pitch and the 1445 is 1.77 diaX2.478 pitch. The only time I have seen a Motor go out from too small of size I was running a Y636 and that happend at the end of the run. I say these Motors and ESC should be warranted for those two guys.

[T.S.Davis]

. That should be ok correct?
Yep. I have been using the 120. I set the timing at 7.5 degrees on 2030's. Don't want to push it.

If we limited C rating it would be no time at all before the C rating we chose would no longer be available. Especially with the ratings on some cells being a farce.

Randy, what you'll run into is some that didn't see the boat run like you did asking questions like Rosanne Rosanna Danna "was it running wet, was the stuffing tube perfectly aligned, does the flex spin freely, was the stub shaft hanging up, was the prop balanced, was the shaft greased (too little, too much, too thick, too thin), what kind of connectors, how were they soldered, is there a burr on the prop, is it cupped, is it too big, is it too small, is there a piece of silicone on the stuff tube to keep water out that's too tight, is there debris in the water pickup, is it flowing, how big is your water line, did you pass gas in Walter Cronkite's office?" Anything and everything but a motor issue.

Not AQ necessarily. Mike isn't like that in my experience.

There is a strong desire for some to lump failures into user error. Sure. Absolutely user errors happen. My kid injured one over the weekend. Proof. 80% though? Not buying it.

[Darin Jordan]

None of these motors should be this temperamental. We've been told "start small, check heat, little bit more, check heat, microscopic changes, check heat, make sure the boat is running free". Now guys have to not only go conservative on props but be aggressive enough or......fr'shizzle?

How would a new guy get into this class? Sounds like the setups are too finicky for average humans. I sure hope the new version of these is more forgiving.

My son grabbed the wrong prop out of our box the other day. The sprint prop instead of the offshore prop. 3mm difference. Motor came in at 128 degrees after 11 laps. Not super hot but that tell tale whisp of smoke came out of the hatch. It's surely baked. User error. Darin's 80%. Only the 3rd run on the motor too. Our fault but bummer. Especially because we race this weekend and know it's going to fail. Not might fail. Will fail........just don't know when. He'll go back to his offshore prop but it's likely too late.

Terry... 4-Laps isn't "starting small"...

Rule of thumbs have been thrown out the window. Did anyone bother running two-laps then checking temps?

You are pulling well over the 60A maximum of the AQ controller, but you blame the motor??

I'm NOT saying it's not the motor, but even Tommy suggested that the ESC failed first. No one really knows, because everyone seems to read something on an forum, try to duplicate it, then gets upset when it doesn't work for them. Meanwhile, NONE of them had out the feeler gauges and setup boards and took the time to REALLY understand how many degrees AoA their right and left sponsons were, or what their strut angle truly was, etc... I suggest that my 80% of failures I mentioned are do to THESE facts...

The motors are NOT temperamental... not for the most part, anyhow. OF COURSE some will have problems. YES manufacturing "tolerances" vary. YES RTR suppliers quality can sometimes suffer. BUT, that is NOT the majority of the problem...

What has happened, however, is that we STARTED P-LTD putting these systems into our old 8-cell and 12-cell hulls (24" to 27" or so), and now we've pushed them and pushed them and pushed them into FE30's (no lift, ass-dragging, power robbing tanks), Delta-Force 29's or 33's, 30"+ former P-Open Hydros, 35"+ 1/10th Scales, etc... and we expect them NOT to be running at their very limit? All because SOME of us have been able to make setups like that work?

EVERY class has the opportunity to push the power systems beyond their limits. What masks that in our current class structure to a great degree are the length limits. Otherwise, we'd have 40" P-Open Monos, pushing their 1521's or 1527's, or beyond, right to their max limits, and we'd be seeing those fail as well.

Tommy, in response to your request for a prop recommendation, I'm sorry, but I no longer feel it's responsible for me to recommend such things in most cases. As I've found, over the years, this is a setup by setup deal, and there is no way I can recommend something that I know will work on your setup. I only race. I don't go "play", so what I use works on my boats, under race conditions, and I've never tried them beyond that. The best I can do is recommend that you study one of the many Prop tweaking guides out there and understand how to work your own, then build on that. Otherwise, I'm just risking you getting pissed at me because your boat burned up running my recommended prop. OR, I get bashed for recommending something that pushes your setup well beyond the "50-Amp" rating for the motor...

Also, NONE of my props that work are simply "sharpened and balanced"... ALL of them have a tweak or a cut or a bend or SOMETHING that has been done to them to make them work. The very limited exception to this is the ABC 42x55 that I've been running recently on my P-LTD OPC Flynn Dragon... that one is as bone stock as the day the Grim handed it to us at the 2007 NATs for the Spec-SV27 class...

[properchopper]

One month ago today I bought a fresh AQ 2030 for my Drifter S to attempt to up my P-Ltd Cat record at the NAMBA SAW. Roughly eight passes ; temp on the engine never over @ 115 deg F. Next to last run boat stopped ten feet off the beach. Brought it in ; seemed ok. Next, ran @ 100 feet and quit. AQ 60A esc SMOKED. It was ancient so no big mystery I thought. Put motor in FE30 for PLSH last Saturday. Ten feet off beach in practice it quit. Replaced esc, Tx/Rx, exchanged batteries. Same crap only it happened on the first heat mill:cursing:. Put in older spare motor & raced last three heats.

This relatively new AQ2030 ( seems clean, no smell, no browned stator wires just inside endbell) on the way to Hobby Services.

Last P-Ltd Cat race of the season in 2 weeks ; down to one motor & one spare backup. Not pleased with this situation, but........

120529

[T.S.Davis]

Also, NONE of my props that work are simply "sharpened and balanced"... ALL of them have a tweak or a cut or a bend or SOMETHING that has been done to them to make them work. .

Darin, this is where we want to point new comers to the sport? RTR guys? We (most of us) recognize the importance of keeping the RTR's part of this limited riddle. Those newer guys have to get lapped by us guys that don't own a simple prop. I've actually stopped reefing on my props for that reason.

I missed AoA. Good one. Didn't think of that. Strut angle too. Usually that makes them hop and not burn up but you're right. It's a factor.

You tell us we can't know what caused our failures without data but you can "suggest" that 80% of the failures in boats you've never even seen are due to setup issues? If Randy looks at the boats with 30+ years of setup experience and finds no blaring issues is that enough?

125 degrees is okay and 128 degrees is a burnt motor? 3 degrees above Dave's recommended. That's pretty sensitive.

[Darin Jordan]

125 degrees is okay and 128 degrees is a burnt motor? 3 degrees above Dave's recommended. That's pretty sensitive.

128-degrees WHEN? After it sat waiting to be retrieved? Was that core temperature, or temperature on the can? Things cool down quickly with water in the cooling jacket. 30-seconds is a LONG time before measuring to get an accurate idea.

Please understand that I'm NOT saying the motor didn't fail, or that they aren't sensitive to setups, but I am concerned that the BLAME for these failures is being directed by emotions, not facts. There are a LOT of us out here NOT having serious motor issues. There must be a reason for that?

I also remember there being issues in the past with the Schultz controllers and the Neu-Motors. Everyone wants "cheap" ESCs. Are these the problem? I almost exclusively run Castles, if I venture from the stock Pro Boat/Dynamite stuff. Maybe that's the deal?

P-LTD Racing has been a HUGE boost to NAMBA. Whether they'll admit it or not, I think it's been for IMPBA as well. I hate to see us throwing the whole deal out because we racers have raised our expectations from having competitive and reliable 45mph setups to having 55 mph setups, with longer and heavier boats. THAT is what has happened here, more than anything else.

[T.S.Davis]

128-degrees WHEN? After it sat waiting to be retrieved? Was that core temperature, or temperature on the can? Things cool down quickly with water in the cooling jacket. 30-seconds is a LONG time before measuring to get an accurate idea..

This is where I get so frustrated. I've built 100plus boats and turned thousands of laps in every kind of weather from snow to 102 degree heat wave with every kind of equipment from mechanical sweeper speedos to Schulze and still because you haven't had problems you discount my findings with minutia like the time between the last pull of the trigger and checking the temperature. I can't give you an exact time. Long enough to get from the shore to the bench and rip the tape. I know what you've assumed. Next time I'll get in the water and check it the very second that I let go of the trigger.

Oh wait.............how could I be so dense.........now I get it............. to know for sure...............I must have an eagle tree verifying temps during the run. duhhh...... Should I get the telemetry and have someone read it during the whole run? I wonder if we can get AQ and PB to add that to the RTR's since those guys will be running against me too. They'll need to start tweaking props on day one to keep from getting lapped. Can't do that without run time temps.

I'm beginning to understand where Doug was coming from. RTR's might get guys to buy boats but compete?.........yeah I guess sometimes if everyone else flips over.

[Darin Jordan]

Terry, you are taking what I said too far. You KNOW I wasn't talking down to anyone and I didn't discount anyone's findings. Only suggested that we be careful when assigning blame.

[Darin Jordan]

You are also ignoring the facts that I stated regarding how hard these are getting pushed. With each new P-LTD boat you've built, have you gone smaller, lighter, or less stressful on the power system?

Redundant question. .. I already know the answer.

[longballlumber]

This is where I get so frustrated. I've built 100plus boats and turned thousands of laps in every kind of weather from snow to 102 degree heat wave with every kind of equipment from mechanical sweeper speedos to Schulze and still because you haven't had problems you discount my findings with minutia like the time between the last pull of the trigger and checking the temperature. I can't give you an exact time. Long enough to get from the shore to the bench and rip the tape. I know what you've assumed. Next time I'll get in the water and check it the very second that I let go of the trigger.

Oh wait.............how could I be so dense.........now I get it............. to know for sure...............I must have an eagle tree verifying temps during the run. duhhh...... Should I get the telemetry and have someone read it during the whole run? I wonder if we can get AQ and PB to add that to the RTR's since those guys will be running against me too. They'll need to start tweaking props on day one to keep from getting lapped. Can't do that without run time temps.

I'm beginning to understand where Doug was coming from. RTR's might get guys to buy boats but compete?.........yeah I guess sometimes if everyone else flips over.

Come on Terry.... This is going way to far...

You need to take a look at the current points situation in OUR OWN CLUB... Most (not all) of the current leaders, top 3, top 6,... however you want to look at it are running RTR hulls! As a matter of fact the guy leading P-Limited Offshore is running a SV-27 for gods sake....

What did the results of the last 3 years of each club class look like?

What you posted above does not fall inline with what is happening in our own club.

[Darin Jordan]

OH, Terry... by the way...


I LOVE YOU, MAN!! :hug1:

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah, I should have added a sarcasm emoticon Mike. Sorry. :sorry:

My point still stands. It's not practical or reasonable to expect racers in classes like these to have real time temps, amps, and up close footage of ride attitude to determine if a setup is right. It's supposed to be a mid level class structure. It shouldn't be that complicated.

Those that feel the motors are dead solid perfect are quick to poo poo any observations or experiences that point to a conclusion other than user error and/or just pushing too hard.

Our gang finished 4 guys in the top 10 at the nationals. It's a pretty strong group in my opinion. The guys that are winning our classes aren't running eagle tree, checking setups with feeler gauges for AoA. Not many one off props that are bent, shaved, trimmed and hardened for a single purpose built boat. Yet they still won some nat championships and placed well. Sooooo..........is it necessary to do all that rot? I would say NO IT IS NOT! Should it be? No way. If it is the classes days are truly numbered.

Now if those guys have some unexplained motor failures.......the answer is.............well, clearly bad setups. :sarcasm1:

[Doug Smock]

:blink::huh::tape::glare::tape::tiphat:

[Doby]

So...as this discussion is basically turning into a bitching, love/hate, she said/he said kinda thing about the reliability of the Aquacraft 2030 motor and the ability/ in-ability of some people to properly set-up their boats, the relative water density in the northern hemisphere vs the southern hemisphere....solar flares affecting motor timing etc....and getting us NOWHERE.....

Time for some Kanadian over-simplification reasoning....keep the current motors on the list, use the NAMBA rule guidelines about +/- this spec , and +/- that kv rating.....forget about the requirement of it being in a RTR and go with that to select new motors that will supplement the current ones (or one)

Sounds pretty simple to me.

But then again, I'm Kanadian.

I hate to say it...but Cheese Head Peterson is doing the right thing...(god that hurts)

[Darin Jordan]

I give up.

Have fun, guys...

[RandyatBBY]

The relative water density in the northern hemisphere vs the southern hemisphere....solar flares affecting motor timing etc....and getting us NOWHERE.....

Time for some Kanadian over-simplification reasoning....keep the current motors on the list, use the NAMBA rule guidelines about +/- this spec , and +/- that kv rating.....forget about the requirement of it being in a RTR and go with that to select new motors that will supplement the current ones (or one)

Sounds pretty simple to me.


I hate to say it...but Cheese Head Peterson is doing the right thing...(god that hurts)

This is what I said some 200 post ago. Get on the stick Dave Newland or your winter racing of P LTD with Present motors will be up in smoke.:flashfire::flammes-09::flammes-09:

[Chilli]

Time for some Kanadian over-simplification reasoning....keep the current motors on the list, use the NAMBA rule guidelines about +/- this spec , and +/- that kv rating.....forget about the requirement of it being in a RTR and go with that to select new motors that will supplement the current ones (or one)

Sounds pretty simple to me.



Not as simple as it seems. Any addition with a perceived performance advantage is going to cause members to kick and scream they have to buy new motors to stay competitive. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'm going to sell my FE30 and build a Q Sport Hydro. :smile:

[Namba328]

I give up.

Have fun, guys...

I didn't take what you said to heart and got butt hurt over it. I use these forums to talk to people like yourself who I know that have been doing this p-spec stuff since the beginning. I don't think there was anything wrong with my setup. I set the strut and turn fin on a setup board. I also don't think that a stainless prather 220 is neither to small or too big. So the only thing that I think may of been the problem was the esc and/or the motor. My guess is the spedo because it made the boat turn left and flat run away like there was no radio at all. I have tested my servo and the reciever and they are both working perfectly fine. So my guess is that my aquacraft unit had a major internal malfunction.

[D. Newland]

Randy,

If you want potatoes, grab the hoe. I will do nothing until there is a no-brainer solution this issue.

Oh, and remember that I do this for the enjoyment of the hobby. I have no formal authority or higher power to make rule proposals for FE. Any NAMBA member can do just as much as I do with regards to rules.

If you, or anyone else feels like they have the solution and want the FE helm for NAMBA, email Robert Holland @ hollandframe@aol.com. There are a few hot FE topics that could probably benefit from your opinion and expertise right now. Maybe a fresh FE perspective is what is needed in NAMBA.

[PatrickM]

This is what I said some 200 post ago. Get on the stick Dave Newland or your winter racing of P LTD with Present motors will be up in smoke.:flashfire::flammes-09::flammes-09:
Damn Randy!.... when did you return to the political arena?

Remember the primary rule in RC boating... STAY AWAY FROM THE GRAY!!!!! :tongue:

[DPeterson]

Doby

I hate to say it...but Cheese Head Peterson is doing the right thing...(god that hurts)

Can someone that lives close to Doby go and check on him. I think he may have fallen down and hit his head. LOL

For the record
While I am totally done with Tower/AQ and will never run another 2030, I am a huge supporter of Dave Newland and his efforts to lead FE in NAMBA. When reasonable compromise is considered along with some geographical representation, all will be good.

For what my opinion is worth - when the rules are opened up for more than one manufacture to particpate, I believe most of the issues will be solved. Competition amoung motor suppliers is not a bad thing.

Rule proposal - 36mm x 60mm can size limit, 1800 - 2100 KV, All motors must be approved and listed by the NAMBA technical committee. Technical committee to determine further motor limitations. New motor applications must be submitted and approved 1 year prior to any NAMBA Nationals.

Not that hard really. Carry on gents with some productive conversation.

Doug

[Namba328]

Doby


Can someone that lives close to Doby go and check on him. I think he may have fallen down and hit his head. LOL

For the record
While I am totally done with Tower/AQ and will never run another 2030, I am a huge supporter of Dave Newland and his efforts to lead FE in NAMBA. When reasonable compromise is considered along with some geographical representation, all will be good.

For what my opinion is worth - when the rules are opened up for more than one manufacture to particpate, I believe most of the issues will be solved. Competition amoung motor suppliers is not a bad thing.

Rule proposal - 36mm x 60mm can size limit, 1800 - 2100 KV, All motors must be approved and listed by the NAMBA technical committee. Technical committee to determine further motor limitations. New motor applications must be submitted and approved 1 year prior to any NAMBA Nationals.

Not that hard really. Carry on gents with some productive conversation.

Doug

:iagree:

[jaike5]

I Live close to Doby.....well not within swinging distance! :laugh: You don't have to worry about motors on Thursday race evenings, Doby's rules are last boat can cut pins 4,5,6, any guesses who's boat is last. lmao ! All Canadian are not like him.

Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

So I was watching a movie. Johnny Dep was behind bars listening to another cell mate talking about the Pearl. "No survivors, then where do you suppose all the stories come from?"

Made me think.......if the heat misers aren't having and problems........how did they come up with the 125 degree recommended temp?

[D. Newland]

Terry, I think your time would be better spent focusing on your own setups. The way you are carrying on with this is starting to be absurd, IMO.

I have lost motors. I've said that. It's part of limited racing. I have also said that my failures are few and far between and I accept the failures that I've had.

Also, I'm a resource to my club mates and to other racers I race with across the country. I'm asked questions. I watch their setups. I see what happens out there.

I draw conclusions. I have success, and I typed up 2400 words outlining how I handle my P-Ltd setups for the benefit of those that are interested.

Maybe you could do something constructive like that for the group? I'd actually be genuinely interested in what you have to say.

[rayzerdesigns]

ok guys..not standing up for anyone here be it david or terry..or anyone else..if you want equality there is only one way..that is a single spec motor sealed..sure club races people are gonna cheat and im sure at national levels..i come from the car racing scene, and the only way to keep it 100% fair is a spec handout motor..i have been doing the car racing for 25 plus years..if you are so worried about motors being faster or not then this is the only option..at any nationals if you want fairness it needs to be a handout motor..cans are easy to mark so you cntell if they have been tampered with..im not saying this at a club level..but pick one motor if you want to keep it 100 fair..sure people are going to push the limits of any motor..but me being new to the boating scene have not burned up a 2030 motor..and to quote mr grim they are making changes to the 2030 that will make it much more reliable..hats off to him and aq..I don't see any other mfgs doing that..sure when you build a big number of motors or boats or electronics you are gonna have bad batches..thats a given..but it happens..im not telling anyone to run out and buy ot not buy or how to run a club or a national event..but the only 100% fair and equal way to do that is one motor and manufacturer..yes that will piss off other mfgrs..but tht is a downside..i myself have no problem with the rules the way they are..i like the choice to have a couple to choose from..iff you don't like the aq motors then run the pb motors..sure they aren't gonna make them anymore..so guess its aq for me..also comig from the car scene, just like the boating scene..the stock classes are usually where all the money is spent pushing electronics to the edge..i have done it and still do it for big events..so enough of the grumbling here guys..either run a motor on the list or not..if you don't like spec racing and again its not for all, but im pretty sure they are the biggest classes..then don't run them..i have enjoyed boating for the reasons of the comraderie, and friends I have made..its so much more laid back and people help..i invite anyone to come to a national event either in onroad or offroad..you will see how much secrecy there is..lets enjoy the rules how they are unless you want a single motor for spec..there are ups and downs to everyones opinions..and that's what they are..opinions..but we have leaders setup in organizations that I believe have the best interst of this hobby in mind..and im sure they here all of the bickering nonstop..put yourself in their shoes..its not easy..i have been there..never want to do it again..enough..lets race..is it az season yet??

[Doby]

ok guys..not standing up for anyone here be it david or terry..or anyone else..if you want equality there is only one way..that is a single spec motor sealed..sure club races people are gonna cheat and im sure at national levels..i come from the car racing scene, and the only way to keep it 100% fair is a spec handout motor..i have been doing the car racing for 25 plus years..if you are so worried about motors being faster or not then this is the only option..at any nationals if you want fairness it needs to be a handout motor..cans are easy to mark so you cntell if they have been tampered with.

How can the car race guys cheat so much if motors are handed out at the races?



Are people really that shallow that they need to cheat?

I'm sure everyone at the FE Nats this year cheated...its the only way all those spec boats finished...both the RTRs and the custom builds. Did anyone actually check the motors used? I don't think so.

I guess the boaters are more trustworthy and honest than the car guys.

[DPeterson]

A few reasons why a single motor supplier is a fail:

The intent of the P-Limited rules class was for all purposes positive. However as it progressed the AQ 2030 came out as the motor of choice. Then PB not only did not keep up with one of their own but discontinued the other motor options.

The AQ motor quality then dropped and the price went up. The blame is put on the motor manufacturer and the customer. One of the larger Distributors lies about the motor issues and the Brand AQ does nothing to hold up its integrity.

There is no acknowledgment of the motor quality issues but yet "upgrades" were made. The upgraded motors are only available when the others have been purged from the inventory. This means us dumb suckers had to purchase the lower quality motors before the others would be made available. Other than a few select racers receiving theirs.

Anyone else feel like a sheep and every now and then you get pulled out of the herd and - you know. Baaaa Baaaa Baaaa

Carry on! Baaa Baaa Baaa

[rayzerdesigns]

really doby..people find ways...hence why handout motors..there was a big race earlier this summer..they didn't use handout motors..out of the top 10 finishers 3 were found to have illegal stators..rotors..its all stuff that can be teched..and was..im not saying it happens in boating..im just saying if you want it to be 100 perv
cent fair..at a natu
ional or big race..handout sealed motors are the way to do it.

[rayzerdesigns]

A few reasons why a single motor supplier is a fail:

The intent of the P-Limited rules class was for all purposes positive. However as it progressed the AQ 2030 came out as the motor of choice. Then PB not only did not keep up with one of their own but discontinued the other motor options.

The AQ motor quality then dropped and the price went up. The blame is put on the motor manufacturer and the customer. One of the larger Distributors lies about the motor issues and the Brand AQ does nothing to hold up its integrity.

There is no acknowledgment of the motor quality issues but yet "upgrades" were made. The upgraded motors are only available when the others have been purged from the inventory. This means us dumb suckers had to purchase the lower quality motors before the others would be made available. Other than a few select racers receiving theirs.

Anyone else feel like a sheep and every now and then you get pulled out of the herd and - you know. Baaaa Baaaa Baaaa

Carry on! Baaa Baaa Baaa
doug cant we all get along?? aq is working on the problem..mr grimm has posted what they are doing to fix the issue..yes they have backstock..and im sure some people got bad motors..tha happens with mass production in anything..hell look at real cars..look how many recalls are out there..it happens..i for one congratulate aq for trying to fix the problem..as for proboat..maybe they will come out with another motor..who knows..i have 3 of the 2030s yes one is considerably faster and runs cooler than the others..but that's with any brushless motors..next time you come to a race I will bring out my measuring equipment and show you how much difference there is in any two or more of the same motor..and I also believe even if they fix problems with the 2030s, were just gonna push them harder..thats just spec in general..but to me that's half of the fun with spec..seeing how much I can get out of it..

[madmikepags]

Been racing cars for 25+ years and even "handout" motors are BS. I was sponsored by one of the "Big" companies for a while and when we went to races that were "handout" motors, there was a seperate box of "handout" motors for the team drivers, and they always had 10-15% more power than the other guys "handout" motors.

[rayzerdesigns]

I would like to hear how your testing goes with the tp motor..maybe its better..maybe its not..only way to know is to run it..i do think that the cost is a little heavy ..but that's my opinion..i also think that the plimited rules are fine..and still continues to be the biggest classes..its not anyones fault that only one manufacturer is still amking motors..please let us all know how the testing goes

[Doby]

Been racing cars for 25+ years and even "handout" motors are BS. I was sponsored by one of the "Big" companies for a while and when we went to races that were "handout" motors, there was a seperate box of "handout" motors for the team drivers, and they always had 10-15% more power than the other guys "handout" motors.

Wow...corruption seems to run rampant in this hobby.

[DPeterson]

rayzer

i do think that the cost is a little heavy ..but that's my opinion

AQ 2030 at Tower - $80.00
TP 3630 from TP - $85.00

Yup - $5.00 heavy. I am betting that for the xtra $5.00 I will have twice the motor.

[T.S.Davis]

I don't see any other mfgs doing that..

There are no other manufacturers. Only one.

Dave, after Mikes announcement I was prepared to let it die. What set me off again was Darin's 80% of failures are user related comments. That and your assumption that we aren't working on our setups. Like we go out twice a week and burn crap up every run and learn nothing. Not your words I know. But that's how you come across.

Although I must confess that I am perplexed by the fact that a change is coming. If the problem is with some of us users................why bother making a change at all? Because Doug and I are displeased? That makes for bad math.

I know a few people too. Our club has members. I probably know most of the racers you know too. Very few are willing to take on an issue of any sort. Ever draft a rule? Of course you have. Get lots of help? Not even close. Like you, I have to speak (type?) for them. Accept for me, I also have to defend their honor. The dialog has made them think they're not even smart enough to run the class. This power spec isn't supposed to require a degree in electrical engineering. Some will argue that but you and I know that to be true. It wasn't intended to be dominated by guys with data loggers and feeler gauges and extreme prop modification skills.

AQ while not saying that there is/was a problem has through their actions shown that they agree that the motors could be made better. More reliable hopefully. Predictable even?

Thank you Mike. I appreciate you and AQ responding in some way to our concerns instead of simply saying that you need to dig deeper or find another class.

[T.S.Davis]

.and im sure some people got bad motors..

Some of us do feel that this is the case. No way all just some. Most if not all are willing to accept that these things happen. It's manufacturing. Of budget motors. From over seas. 3 strikes against us.

What we weren't prepared for was for some (and not even AQ by the way) to insult our intelligence in the process.

[PatrickM]

Been racing cars for 25+ years and even "handout" motors are BS. I was sponsored by one of the "Big" companies for a while and when we went to races that were "handout" motors, there was a seperate box of "handout" motors for the team drivers, and they always had 10-15% more power than the other guys "handout" motors.
Started 1/10th asphalt oval racing in 1985 after playing with the 12th scale electric cars for a few years. I can attest to Pags' experiences... When handout stock motors were in vogue at some NORRCA and ROAR races, somehow, the motors that I received dynoed much lower than some of the sponsored guys handouts. Guess that I just wasn't up on the proper tweaks......:noidea:

Some of my earlier posts regarding the advertised claims of manufacturers can be partially verified by this type of common place incident. It gives insight to the marketing mentality rampant in the hobby industry.

Could cite many more personal experiences, but I'm sure that there is no need..........

[RandyatBBY]

Damn Randy!.... when did you return to the political arena?

Remember the primary rule in RC boating... STAY AWAY FROM THE GRAY!!!!! :tongue:

I am so dang grey (my hair) that is impossable. Can you find me?
120570

[T.S.Davis]

Who wouldn't vote for the yeti?

[LuckyDuc]

FWIW. I've had fun with this class from 2009 - 2013. 2014... Not so much. No matter what the winds of change brings, I hope the fun level returns. I need some reinvigoration, and so does our local race program.

[D. Newland]

...
Although I must confess that I am perplexed by the fact that a change is coming. If the problem is with some of us users................why bother making a change at all? Because Doug and I are displeased? That makes for bad math...

Good point. It would be interesting to know the timeline from when the discussion was had @ Aquacraft about improving the motors to retail delivery of the motors. We may never know the answer, but racers have been burning UL-1 wires for over 3 seasons now. Remember Heller's infamous "Blueprinting UL-1 Wires" thread? That was early '12, maybe even late '11. I bet it's taken longer than you think.

[LuckyDuc]

AQ is doing what they can. The problem is that there are no competitive options on the list besides them at the moment. No competition on the manufacturers part leads to the situation we find ourselves in today. it's really no one's fault. $h1t happens. Where do we go from here IS the question.

[DPeterson]

there was a seperate box of "handout" motors for the team drivers, and they always had 10-15% more power than the other guys "handout" motors.


When handout stock motors were in vogue at some NORRCA and ROAR races, somehow, the motors that I received dynoed much lower than some of the sponsored guys handouts.

As far as I am concerned - there is absolutely no place in this toy boat racing hobby for this. And it seems it is still taking place to some degree. This is pathetic. If there are those of you out there that are OK with this, I pitty you. I recommend you go and find a life. No way I am going to travel around the country to race and put up with this crap.

Done with this thread.

[rayzerdesigns]

doug..pm sent..also as mike stated..and myself..if someone has the means to buy a bunch of motors..i don't care what kind or manufacturer..there will be better ones and wose ones..its just the nature of an electric motor..one stator can have waaay less resistance than the other..and lets not even talk about how two or 20 identical rotors will vary in strength by a huge margin..i will show you if you come to az..I just tested my 2 2030s..let me just say that the difference in resistance is almost a whole point..and the rpms on bench testing are almost 2700 rpms..im interested to see how these tp motors stack up..and if you want to test some on bench I would be happy also