NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

[D. Newland]

To not clog up Peterson's post, I want to start a fresh one. Probably should be in the NAMBA/IMPBA section, but can we roll with it here for a bit, please?

Peterson's thread

More in a minute...

[D. Newland]

When we drafted P-Ltd in 2009/2010, I really thought it would last 3 years before it needed a major rule overhaul. Every year, Terry would mention (still mentions) something to the effect that motor production will soon end...

Here we are, closing the end of the 2014 racing season, and the popularity is still growing. P-Ltd Cat, in basically 2 years, dang near overtook LSH in #of entries at the Nat's. Even if every motor on the list went extinct today, I bet most have enough personal supply to run P-Ltd boats, in one form or another, for a few more years.

But, there are growing pains, too. For some. Most? Maybe. Maybe not. The internet tends to focus on the negative voice more than the positive voice. Either way, it's obviously time for a discussion. But, Terry, for the record, you can still order the original SV 27 motor! And I'll concede that you'll be right. Some day.

Take a look at these 2014 Nat's statistics. What do you see? If it didn't format correctly, check back in a minute.

....................P Ltd and P comparison at the 2014 Nationals


Class.......................Fast Time........Boat DNF’s.............Racers finishing all 4 rounds

P Mono................. 1:32.....................42%...................... ....................23%
P-Ltd Mono............1:47.................... 38%..........................................38%

P Hydro................ 1:09.....................44%...................... ....................50%
P-Ltd Hydro...........1:14.................... 25%..........................................45%

P Sport.................1:27.....................54% ..........................................15%
P-Ltd Sport............1:30....................29%...... .....................................30%

P Cat....................1:45.....................45 %...........................................20%
P-Ltd Cat...............1:54.....................44%.... ......................................19%

P Offshore........35 ½ laps for 1st place, Highest heat lap count: 12
P-Ltd Offshore..32 ¼ laps for 1st place, Highest heat lap count: 11

Boats that DNF'd/Total entries for above classes

P...........73/156 = 47% DNF
P Ltd.....107/304 = 35% DNF


It covers a lot of ground. First off, of those classes, P-Ltd fielded twice as many boats than P. It also has a lower/better DNF %. And, at least with a few of the classes, the heat times were quite close.

That is why I want to protect the P-Ltd motor list, unless a "no brainer" comes along. That, and the fact that we still have a number of guys that like it the way it is. If you introduce a new motor to the list, you in essence are telling them to start testing again and get ready to spend some more money. Some will, most won't, but all will be thinking about it...Is that fair to them? And don't forget about the guys with the RTRs...Especially the Cat's.

For those that think a more reliable motor should be on the list, how long will it take Terry to push it, burn it, then back off a hair? How much closer will he be to P speeds and times?

IMO, better you just bow out of P-Ltd and run another Power Parameter. When the entries start to fall, it will be easy to see the problem is real rather than perceived. And, P could use the entries, and some solid P setups at that.

I will keep supporting P-Ltd racing. IMO it has done more for FE than anything else. Even with a few motor replacements, it's a bargain. The hull selection is there, the speeds are adequate, and the ability to learn tuning (and more tuning) is endless.

[JimClark]

Pro boat is drastically changing their offerings so doesn't there have to be some change somewhere?
Course I don't know if, when or what they will replace them with

[PatrickM]

The lack of PB offerings will mainly affect the NAMBA and ERCU 1/10th Scale classes. Although, I'm sure it will be an unpopular option for a number of reasons, the Classic Thunder organization has been running alternate spec motors for a few years with no problems.

[JimClark]

fully aware of that Patrick ERCU only allows the 1500kv and CT allows them in one or two of their three divisions of 1/10th scale. The namba racer's out here do use the proboat motors in several classes

[PatrickM]

Must be lots of Darin fans up that way, LOL.... around these parts, the PB motors are used mainly in the 1/10ths, very few in other NAMBA classes. My point is that the PB's have readily replaceable options needing only a simple rule change. No research or debate required. That being said, someone will try to argue the point....

[T.S.Davis]

I'm not sure your stats are relevant Dave. You can draw more than one conclusion from them.

By the numbers, there's little difference in time. The big difference, by the numbers, is that the P limited boat will finish. So you can buy an AQ for about $80 or say a 2200kv Leopard motor that may be better but the boat wont finish and you get to run the same speed (close)..........soooooo why do we need P limited at all? There is no advantage to full P classes according to the numbers. Not faster and less likely to finish. So run all the motors together. The P limited will win by finishing as the setups are more reliable per the numbers.

The motor list currently includes only 2 motors that are still in production as far as I know. Maybe when it's one we'll discuss it.

I'll think on it Dave. Maybe I'll drop limited from my race program. I'm sure my club will be glad to be rid of me.

[ron1950]

so if dynamite keeps making the 1500 and 1800 motors great but if not and pb replacement motors are not allowed you sure killed the choises for p limited classes...aq motors are not my favorite for sure.... now, what is out there besides dropping out of p limited classes sence no motors may be available

[Doby]

Yes..lets all drop P-limited classes....Lets take the most popular classes and get rid of them

Brilliant decision to grow the hobby.

Spec the can size and put a max KV rating allowed per a manufacturers spec...its not that difficult. If someone is worried about "honesty" at races, the winning motors could probably be verified somehow, and if someone gets caught cheating...then banned for life!

[darryl whitman]

OK guys , some one plz tell me what , P spec class is,
then what P Limited class is , I need to know.

[Todd Fleury]

I hope there is something that will be worked out for 1/10 scale. I only have a few Proboat motors at 1500kv left and one AQ motor that is approved for this class

[T.S.Davis]

Brilliant decision to grow the hobby.

Exactly my point.

I've thought on it. I still want to run a limited class where at least some parity can be had. I'm not certain what our club will do but I think I'm done with the P limited by the book after this season. That will be up to them as a group.

Our gang placed 4 guys in the top 10 at the nationals. They had to perform well in the limited classes to do that. So by the numbers, apparently, limited WAS for them. All but one of those 4 guys has had motors fail on them this summer. Some more than one. Again, on setups that they've run for years.

Darryl, P limited is basically 4s setups with motors from RTR boats. The RTR motors that are legal are listed in the NAMBA rule book. The debate starts over reliability/repeatability and ends with the fact that of the motors on the list there are only 2 that are still being manufactured.

Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".

[Rumdog]

I have no dog in this fight since I do not race, but it really seems that the p limited motors work well only for their intended purpose.. In rtr boats with rtr setups. They're kinda just junk, really. As much as you guys go thru them, might as well use a quality Neu of the same size/ kv range.

[Grimracer]

I don’t Race FE boats anymore and really don’t care all that much what motors end up on the list.. BUT.. I hope NAMBA and the racers don’t forget the reason this PLTD class came about.

I have never thought as this as a "beginners" class but a "like" class with "like" power systems that were easily available everyplace regardless of HULL type or MFG.. Am I wrong.. Its OK if you say have this wrong.. (I just might)

Looks like that has been working too..
I feel Doug might not happy with the numbers of guys getting into FE racing in his dist.. (I don’t blame him… I don’t blame the motors). FE might not be the second coming some have stated it is slated to be! I too see light numbers at those races in all power types.
Maybe its time for change.. maybe not.. but as long as there is a race.. we WILL push the limits of the motors WELL past there engineered specs. What happens when those "new" motors start doing the same thing as the motors we have now.. Do you REALLY think they won’t? Why spec new motors (And a prop) what ARE" you trying to avoid? O yea.. I know.. the same "Issue" we have now.
I hope however that whatever comes out of this that it continues to hold good numbers and hopefully grow too!
I say the FE guys know what’s best.. as long as its not a lack of winning that’s driving the questions but the better for the org.
Good luck and I/we support your decisions.
Grimracer

[Darin Jordan]

Just to provide some facts for this discussion, the Dynamite motors that Pro Boat had been using will NO LONGER be available. They've been discontinued.

So, as far as the rules are concerned, P-LTD has, for all intensive purposes, become "P-AquaCraft"...

Carry-On...