NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

[T.S.Davis]

As far as I am concerned - there is absolutely no place in this toy boat racing hobby for this. And it seems it is still taking place to some degree. This is pathetic. If there are those of you out there that are OK with this, I pitty you. I recommend you go and find a life. No way I am going to travel around the country to race and put up with this crap..

Off topic but this thread is a disaster anyway.

Doug, remember your beloved LSH class with the 700 motors? Back then the rumor was that Fine tested every SS1 motor from a pallet to find the strongest of the bunch for distribution to the key guys he thought had the best shot at winning with his motors. Like I said though, it was a rumor. Was it true? I don't think so. I suspect I know the source of that rumor but I don't think there was any proof of it. Many don't like the Fines but honestly I don't think those guys had the technical expertise back then to even do that.

Guys that win will be accused of cheating. Darin was right about that.

[Peter A]

Guys that win will be accused of cheating. Darin was right about that.

Tall poppy syndrome! Come and live in NZ and you get used to that, this is also the land of short poppies!

[Whitey]

Off topic but this thread is a disaster anyway.

Doug, remember your beloved LSH class with the 700 motors? Back then the rumor was that Fine tested every SS1 motor from a pallet to find the strongest of the bunch for distribution to the key guys he thought had the best shot at winning with his motors. Like I said though, it was a rumor. Was it true? I don't think so. I suspect I know the source of that rumor but I don't think there was any proof of it. Many don't like the Fines but honestly I don't think those guys had the technical expertise back then to even do that.

Guys that win will be accused of cheating. Darin was right about that.


The technical expertise needed to determine which motor of the same model is better, is pretty low level expertise.

Any motor becomes a generator when you spin the rotor, hold the can stationary, and tap the leads.

Chuck the shaft into drill press, connect a multimeter set for VDC to the leads, start the drill press while holding the can stationary, and the VDC output of the motor shows its capability. If you have multiple motors of the same model, do the same check and record the VDC out. As long as the rotors were spun at the same RPM, the motor with the highest output is the best motor of the lot.

Same goes for a brushless motor, only the meter must be set to VAC. You have (4) 2030s. Connect each to a constant RPM drive (drill press), hold the can stationary, connect the meter to any two leads. Run 'em and record the reading. The 2030 with highest VAC output is the best 2030.

[ray schrauwen]

I'll give that a go. Might use a flex shaft and collet though.

[Doug Smock]

Deleted post. Apparently I missed something.:blink:

[LuckyDuc]

Oh goodie. Just when the fire was dying down, we found some gas to throw on it. .

[longballlumber]

Oh goodie. Just when the fire was dying down, we found some gas to throw on it. .

Boy, you're not kidding.... (I am talking about this whole situation)

[madmikepags]

U got a drill press that spins 30-35k rpm? at different rpm you will get different readings for each motor. I've personally Dyno tested hundreds of "handout" motors at may different racing events and concluded that if there was a team there from the company that sponsored the handout motors their motors were always better. That being said a "a top team driver" once challenged me that his motor wasn't the difference and we swapped motors for a heat. Not only did he KICK MY ASS he TQ'ed the round with my motor and asked if he could keep it and won the A main with it. I don't really care about if one guy has a better motor than another I would just like them not to have such a small "therapeutic window" (thats how we say it in pharmacy when the diff between a drug working and an overdose is withing a couple of milligrams).

[PatrickM]

U got a drill press that spins 30-35k rpm? at different rpm you will get different readings for each motor. I've personally Dyno tested hundreds of "handout" motors at may different racing events and concluded that if there was a team there from the company that sponsored the handout motors their motors were always better. That being said a "a top team driver" once challenged me that his motor wasn't the difference and we swapped motors for a heat. Not only did he KICK MY ASS he TQ'ed the round with my motor and asked if he could keep it and won the A main with it. I don't really care about if one guy has a better motor than another I would just like them not to have such a small "therapeutic window" (thats how we say it in pharmacy when the diff between a drug working and an overdose is withing a couple of milligrams). Damn, Pags..... are you inferring that SETUP has anything to do with the way a motor performs (or not)?

Sorry, Mike (and others), I'm aware this wasn't the point of your post, but it seems apt for this thread with it's points and counterpoints....

[Namba328]

U got a drill press that spins 30-35k rpm? at different rpm you will get different readings for each motor. I've personally Dyno tested hundreds of "handout" motors at may different racing events and concluded that if there was a team there from the company that sponsored the handout motors their motors were always better. That being said a "a top team driver" once challenged me that his motor wasn't the difference and we swapped motors for a heat. Not only did he KICK MY ASS he TQ'ed the round with my motor and asked if he could keep it and won the A main with it. I don't really care about if one guy has a better motor than another I would just like them not to have such a small "therapeutic window" (thats how we say it in pharmacy when the diff between a drug working and an overdose is withing a couple of milligrams).

:thumbup1:

[RayR]

I believe Proboat/Horizon has just re-entered the picture.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/DYNM3910?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping&CAWELAID=320011980000166024&catargetid=320011980000166160&cadevice=c&gclid=CJ-32rXqksECFQQQ7Aod13AAlA

[ron1950]

nice find ray...u back from jolly old England yet?

[LuckyDuc]

The new Proboat motor looks nice. I presume that once it is offered in a RTR Package it will be a legally approved P Ltd motor.

[kfxguy]

The new Proboat motor looks nice. I presume that once it is offered in a RTR Package it will be a legally approved P Ltd motor.

It comes in this....

http://www.proboatmodels.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdId=PRB08014

[RayR]

It comes in this....

http://www.proboatmodels.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdId=PRB08014

It is NOT the motor that comes in the new Shockwave. The new Shockwave motor is a 3S 2400kv motor, Part# DYNM3900.

So far, the new DYNM3910 is not listed in any of the RTR offerings. I suspect that will change shortly.

[ray schrauwen]

But, being a 4 pole motor and running on a 30 amp Seaking esc like the BJ24, it's going to be a short fuse compared to the old fare of spec motors.


The new Proboat motor looks nice. I presume that once it is offered in a RTR Package it will be a legally approved P Ltd motor.

[TheShaughnessy]

Awesome. I think the new carbon rotor AQ motor, this new PB offering and the tp motor that Doug is having several people test would make a great list of approved limited motors. I know ill be trying to obtain the PB offering in the next couple weeks. I wonder if the esc is a t120 inside a dynamite case. Sadly I think even dealer cost will exceed the price point of a t120 or a SK120. But we all know horizon has outstanding customer/product support so that has to be taken into consideration.

[NativePaul]

I know this discussion is from last year but I just watched this video about the new miss Geiko 29 v3 and Impulse 31 v3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldlTznd6obM&feature=youtu.be
I was wondering what this will do to the P ltd classes, I'm sure the Geiko motor will be legal and may give the UL1 motor some competition at last as it is close in KV, but what about the 1750kv 40mm Impulse motor, will it be the motor that everyone uses next year instead of the UL1 motor as it is bigger and will take more power, or will it be outlawed for its bigger size, despite being in a presumably very popular RTR?

[Darin Jordan]

Proboat did not step up to the larger motor size with any desire or expectation of them becoming legal for P-LTD. I wouldn't even consider that an option or consideration.

[rayzerdesigns]

don't forget proboat/dynamite has the 1500kv motors..i have been running these motors a lot this year..yes..have to change props..setups..but I have been running one in my p limited cat now..and multiple times have had it to 155 160 degrees..still going strong..all my nats setups will be using them

[DPeterson]

rayzerdesigns
from the NAMBA Nats thread

lots of people including myself were burning up motors and speedos..and connectors

Little birdie also told me this was happening at other larger electric venues.

What gives? Through all this discussion we were told the motor problem was fixed and or we needed to learn how to run spec boats. Can the spec experts please share your knowledge again.

Doug

[Darin Jordan]

rayzerdesigns
from the NAMBA Nats thread


Little birdie also told me this was happening at other larger electric venues.

What gives? Through all this discussion we were told the motor problem was fixed and or we needed to learn how to run spec boats. Can the spec experts please share your knowledge again.

Doug

Doug,

Is it possible for you to NOT be a total prick??

Just wondering...

Since you seam to have forgotten... it's pretty simple... You have to tune your setup for the water conditions... Ask about the water conditions, and you'll figure it out.

[Darin Jordan]

Doug,

Is it possible for you to NOT be a total prick??

Just wondering...

Since you seam to have forgotten... it's pretty simple... You have to tune your setup for the water conditions... Ask about the water conditions, and you'll figure it out.

And, since you seem to have all the answers... why don't you stop bitching and poking about this and just write a freaking proposal to get your motors included. If you really believe in this enough to put down the rest of us, step up and stop being an observer. Put YOURSELF in the line of fire and do something, if you feel it necessary!

[DPeterson]

Just a direct question. Not sure name calling is in order.

Water conditions? Really? Are you sure? I would never had figured that out.

Was thinking I had maybe made a mistake by going a different direction because the motor burning issue was so quite. Nope - no mistake.

[Darin Jordan]

Just a direct question. Not sure name calling is in order.

Water conditions? Really? Are you sure? I would never had figured that out.

Was thinking I had maybe made a mistake by going a different direction because the motor burning issue was so quite. Nope - no mistake.

Doug... I'm not sure which birdies you are listening to, but the ones I talked to are used to running in 50-60-degree, very clear water, running 2030KV motors with bent up 447 props right on the ragged edge. They burn motors here...

When you take that setup to 80+ degree water, that is blooming and sticky, well... heat...


But you obviously know that...

Wanna place any bets on whether or not your selected motors would gain more heat/loading at that same pond?? Clearly...


And, for the record, I'm NOT against adding new motors, even the ones you've selected, perhaps, to the approved list. The class is going to need some additions.

But stop bitching about it and trying to belittle those of us who have been involved, or who race the class as is, and get off the fence and get it done. Your personal attacks are pointless...

[DPeterson]

Geez Darin, calm down. I didn't steel your wife!

So - did the motors get fixed or not? Is it still the waters fault? Is it still our fault? Simple questions.

Been running on 80 degree water all year. Hard for me to understand blameing the water.

[Darin Jordan]

So - did the motors get fixed or not? Is it still the waters fault? Is it still our fault? Simple questions.

Been running on 80 degree water all year. Hard for me to blame the water.


You'll have to ask Aquacraft... That's all anyone runs anymore...

[T.S.Davis]

Doug wouldn't have seen it as I'm on his ignore list but just about a week ago I posted this on another thread:

Sadly there really will come a point that "limited" will be replaced by something else. Today, tomorrow, next season? I don't have a clue. Proboat doesn't give a rip about limited racing and Aquacraft doesn't have anyone in house that even knows what that is anymore. That's my impression by the way. It's not company line from either Proboat or AQ.

It's going to take some careful consideration and pretty good timing to get that next phase right. The problem will be the same too. Commit to a any one motor or even a handful of them and we're at their mercy. If they decide that they can save a few bucks on shellac or ABEC1 bearings we get what we get. The motors change. We (racers) don't and never will be able to dictate manufacturers specifications. Racers make up such an itty bitty percentage of the market that we have little influence. Decisions are made based on math and not on racer desires.

We've seen this from multiple manufacturers that we were committed too thus far. They all make changes.

Back in the 700 brushed motor days, Mabuchi produced a batch of special motors for a vendor that bought a bunch of them. That motor suddenly was the only motor to have. Your existing stuff was obsolete. Screwed up the works.

Some AQ changes were so subtle that they only showed up if you were already close to the edge.

Proboat actually changed motor suppliers. Dumped their whole line of motors. Those were the best spec motors yet. They didn't check with us. haha Why would they though? We (racers again) don't buy enough product to influence their bottom line.

IMPBA D4 might be on the right path but it's going to take a larger sampling (guessing here) to sell everyone on the idea. It would be stellar if we could get NAMBA and IMPBA to buy a pallet each of the 3630 1950 kv that D4 runs. Or something like it. Then sell them to members only for the next 5 years or so.

I so wish I had a crystal ball to predict where these manufacturers were going

We have seen guys running in the high 130's on our pond without failure.......yet! The motors are better than they were when we were having a slew of failures.

I feel your pain Darin. Shot over the bow but never any effort to fix anything.

Limited's days, at least as way we know it, are numbered. When/if AQ dumps it's motors we're collectively hosed.

I'm not saying the answer is motor X,Y,Z (Neu, Hacker, TP, whatever) but an answer has to come. What and when? I haven't a clue.

[Doby]

Now now boys...they are just toy.....ahhh, never mind...


By the way, you don't need the 2030 to win in the spec classes, I won both the spec cat and offshore at this years Mich Cup using the 1800 motor.....

Just saying..

Just bragging....

[DPeterson]

Terry - I took you off my ignore list a long time ago. I missed the entertainment.

Terry

Shot over the bow but never any effort to fix anything.

Incorrect statement concerning me at least. Myself, including my race buddies put more effort, time and money into finding a better solution than any others that I know of.

Anyway Terry, thanks for your reply to my inquiry about the current 2030's.

[photohoward1]

Feel the love.


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[photohoward1]

Hey we in ohio don't even have spec classes and we are having a great summer. I only blew up one lehner 3080 this summer. Darn heavy Canadian water.


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[T.S.Davis]

I know I read that you had moved on from organized racing. What gives?

The problem you're going to run into is that you (D4) don't have enough guys racing the motors to convince the nay sayers. Not "running" them. "Racing" them. Lap after lap after lap of nasty a$$ heat racing with crap water etc. I will vouch for the TP motors quality though. Much better motor than a 2030. It's not close in my opinion quality wise.

The 2030 is better but still not great. I have one right now that has an intermittent phase. Weirdest thing I've seen. It didn't go thermal nuclear like we're used to seeing. Just dropped a phase as far as I can tell. That one has a zillion laps on it though so could just be lack of maintenance.

The SSS motors we were toying with were not equal in quality. To get there we had to increased size. Kind defeated the purpose. I was racing a 36mm version in P sport and staying in the same turn as the big boys.

[DPeterson]

Terry

The problem you're going to run into is that you (D4) don't have enough guys racing the motors to convince the nay sayers.

The very reason I subsidized the sale of close to 100 TP motors all across the Country and into just about every club. For reasons unknown to me the guy's who bought them seem to be afraid to test them and report back. The NAMBA brass must have scared them quite. :)

As for running in sanctioned events - once you take out the anal rule factor, racing toy boats is a ton of fun.

Doug

[Greg Schweers]

This year I bought 2 TPs and 2 of the new style UL1s. All the motors have been used for 9 races. One TP is in a Cat, the other TP is in the Mono. The UL1s are in the LSH and Rigger. If I had to pick one, it would definitely be the TP. It's just the better quality motor. The motors never got over 100 degrees; running the same prop I had with the UL1, the TP might pull a little harder on the top end. The LSH (Whiplash) I did prop down to an H5, only because I wanted to go a whole race season without burning up a UL1. My club voted the TP motor in last November, and only 2 people in the club were using the motors. I wasn't like people were coming over and saying that boat was really fast. If I had a choice, I'd vote the TP motor in right now. We really need to start thinking about what we're going to do with this motor situation. Maybe we need to eliminate the RTR. And, we need to eliminate the word "nominal" from the battery section.

[Jeff]

Darin, Doug offered you a free motor to test. When the head ostrich at namba told you all to stick your heads in the sand you listened. Now instead of a season of racing from the larger fe clubs, your own comparison data along with eagle tree and castle data to discuss as a starting point, we have the water was to cold your data is invalid. Nice try to blame Doug for anything.

[JimClark]

i think this one has run it's course

[JimClark]

If every one will keep it civil and pertaining to the motor subject I will open it back up.

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[Darin Jordan]

Darin, Doug offered you a free motor to test. When the head ostrich at namba told you all to stick your heads in the sand you listened. Now instead of a season of racing from the larger fe clubs, your own comparison data along with eagle tree and castle data to discuss as a starting point, we have the water was to cold your data is invalid. Nice try to blame Doug for anything.

Just to be factual... I contacted Doug in regards to bench testing one of these motors. I've never seen a motor.


As for the rest of your post, I'm letting it go. It's nonsense and not productive to even address...

[Darin Jordan]

We really need to start thinking about what we're going to do with this motor situation.

Agreed...


Maybe we need to eliminate the RTR.

Perhaps that's run it's course as well. Pro Boat is out of the equation now for motor supply based on the current rules... the 2050 KV is out of the rules for length, and the rest of the line has gone to 40mm motors...

Not sure about AQ... it's been pretty quiet over there too.

With the markets the way they are, RC Boat racing is simply TOO small a segment of the Boating portion of the RC Hobby, and a miniscule portion of the overall RC Hobby, to focus directly on. For the past 6 years I've tried to get that focus out of Pro Boat and it was there for awhile, but the marketers have spoken.

And, let's face it... the IM31 or BJ29 are WAY more fun and a bigger benefit to the RC Boating segment as a whole with a bigger, more capable power system. Good on Rafael for making that happen.

I think that racing needs to adapt to the market, not the other way around.




And, we need to eliminate the word "nominal" from the battery section.

I'm not sure about this part, but the actual class voltages were just recently changed. "Nominal" values are not used... actual values are...

You can read the updates here:

http://www.namba.com/content/library/rules/_Rulebook%20update%202015-1%20-%20website%20061415.pdf

[jaike5]

Of topic, and the other end of the scale !

Howard what was the wind on the 3080 you cooked ? I run 3060 in my mono 7T, and cat 3080 5T no issues ! Canadian water all the time.

Cheers, Jay.

[JimClark]

closing this one now that the other thread up