schulze 40.160 alternative?

[pond skipper]

looking for a alternative to the 40.160 for a SAW boat I have in mind. Any thoughts or recommendations are welcome, looked at the swordfish 300 pro+ but with companies like that, they are seldom truthful about what the esc is actually capable of handling but if anyones got any experience with them I would love to hear about it or any other suitable water cooled alternatives! Thanks! James.

[photohoward1]

What I can tell you is that nothing beats a Schulze. I do have 1 working Swordfish 300+Pro. They do work up to 300 amps. Higher than the 40-160. The Schulze cuts off if you over amp it. The Swordfish just goes Poof! (They are definitely overrated as far as amp draw.) Fine line when they say 300. MGM makes some pretty robust controllers theses days.

[kfxguy]

I hate that us boaters are faced with so few choices for a good esc. Most people cant afford an mgm and when you got half a dozen boats, makes it even harder to buy them. Ive been looking around for alternate choices but have had no good luck.

[pond skipper]

Yea I would have to agree that our lack of options absolutely stinks.. What's the cutoff exactly on the schulze? If the swordfish actually is able to handle more than the 40/160 then it will definitely work for what I'm thinking of doing, if it goes poof then I'll just go to MGM! If you can't get it done with 400a continuous then it's not going to get done lol!

[madmikepags]

Yea I understand. I have 35+ boats all Ready to go but as the castle controllers start to dwindle with no support I'll be looking for other alternatives also. MGM's are nice but I really would like a US supplier w/ support. The Swordfish 300 works but is huge and weighs well over a lb!!!!

[pond skipper]

The 400a MGM weighs 1.014 lb without wires lol.. The swordfish weighs 1.08lb

[Fluid]

The Castle aircraft controllers are still an option. In hulls with enough internal air volume they can be cooled simply with a small 25 to 30 mm fan. It is reasonably easy to water cool them with the right parts.....but that doesn't work for everyone. My club members have not had great luck with the lower amp Swordfish ESCs....

There is still no equivalent to the Schulze 40-160.






.

[bracka69]

The Etti 220A HV esc is a nice one.

[jaike5]

40/160. to my door for 535.00 Can. from Icare . Just had one repaired from water damage 165.00 Can. all in.
Cheers, Jay.

[pond skipper]

I thought they quit making the 40.160 and didn't schulze go out of business?

[flraptor07]

From what I've heard and been told by Junlin @ TP USA, they are coming out with a line of Water Cooled boat ESCs real soon.

[kfxguy]

Well hopefully

1) ose or kintec carries them
2) they are affordable
3) have some sort of protection to keep it from burning itself
4) is better than the offerings we have now

[tlandauer]

From what I've heard and been told by Junlin @ TP USA, they are coming out with a line of Water Cooled boat ESCs real soon.
That's good to know, and my hammer is ready to strike all the Hobby Wing ESC!!!:roflol:

[Doby]

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__40278__Hobbyking_YEP_180A_HV_4_14S_Marine_Brushl ess_Speed_Controller_Opto_.html

Semi-clone???

[pond skipper]

http://www.mgm-controllers.com/race-boats/tmm-40063-3-for-race-boats-x2-series.html

May work.. Lol

[kfxguy]

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__40278__Hobbyking_YEP_180A_HV_4_14S_Marine_Brushl ess_Speed_Controller_Opto_.html

Semi-clone???

I have a hard time giving hobby king any of my money much less 200 bucks lol.

[pond skipper]

I have a hard time giving hobby king any of my money much less 200 bucks lol.

Lol my thoughts as well!

[pond skipper]

Thanks for all the input guys, I think I may just go MGM from the get go and save myself the heartache and wasted money.

[tlandauer]

Thanks for all the input guys, I think I may just go MGM from the get go and save myself the heartache and wasted money.

Good call!

[kevinpratt823]

How water resistant are the MGM controllers?
I have no experience with MGM, and for my (sport) applications this would be important, otherwise I would have no problem spending the money if I only have to do it once. I will say though, that as one who has had a smokey and smelly learning curve with esc's, my Sniper burnt 2 Hydra Ice 200HV's, and a SF 240HV, put and SF300HV in and it has never skipped a beat, but I'm well within the 300 amps. You just have to make sure you get the most current software, as some SF's wouldn't recognize full throttle on my Spektrum TX until it was calibrated at 100% then turned up to 120%. Hifei denied it was an issue as I tried to get the 240 replaced, it failed from heat, (which is to be expected somewhat when it only runs at 70%), right up until the day I finally caved in and paid for the replacement. Then they gave me the software update that corrects this.

[Alexgar]

mgms are great i have 2 have had 3 one burnt up completely under water in a 4x4 slash that hit a puddle about 4" deep that i didnt think was that deep and i think the motor shorted burning the esc and i was told i could replace it because the boards were burnt for 60% of retail and for the other one i had serviced for over pushing it i was charged 50 euro well worth the repair price considering any esc beside the t180 cost more. to put things shortly repair and communication 1st class(mgm). Product first class, would buy again, i own some schulzes(5) and mgms(2) and wont be buying more cheapy escs unless they are one of the t180s that have lasted me years. Btw i own 2 sf120 v1 still working after years also

[pond skipper]

Can anyone tell me what the actual limit stations of the schulze 40.160 is and what makes them so sought after by SAW racers? Does it have something to do with internal resistance or something?

[RaceMechaniX]

There is no exact answer. It depends on the junction temperature in the FETS, battery quality, connector quality, ripple current, motor load, cooling, cable inductance and many other factors. Their nomenclature is pretty accurate, i.e. 160A continuous with adequate cooling and 200A for several seconds. Of course these can be pushed harder, several of us have pushed over 500A through them for several seconds.

IR is part of the equation, but in the old Schulze the particular benefits are its simplicity, high copper content board and good design. The newer 40.160wk's and 32.200wk's have lower IR than the older 40.160wk anyways.

There are many good alternatives, but you have to design and select around the entire system.

TG

[keithbradley]

Can anyone tell me what the actual limit stations of the schulze 40.160 is and what makes them so sought after by SAW racers? Does it have something to do with internal resistance or something?

I don't understand... the thread started out with you wanting an alternative to the 40.160, now you're questioning why anyone would want it in the first place?
This is an odd thread. There have definitely been a few things said that I don't agree with. However, not everyone will agree on the best way to do something, and the odds of you finding out how to be competitive at a SAW event by asking the forum are quite low.
I'm not trying to be negative, just honest. With a question like this, you will get guys with experience that give you mixed feedback, people with no real experience that swear they have the answers, people that make recommendations based on what they have seen on you tube, and sometimes people that seem to have their own agenda. (I'm not really describing anyone specific here, just speaking generally).

The reality is that if you want to be capable of setting a current SAW record, you've got to beat the people that have already set them... so you need to figure out something that they haven't. People who really do have experience might try to be helpful, but in the spirit of wisdom they are not going to provide clear cut answers (see posts by fluid and race mechanix). It's just not possible.
Between a few of us in this thread, records have been set with every controller mentioned, with the exception of the hobby king yge knockoff that someone linked. There is no magic bullet.

[pond skipper]

My apologies, I simply wanted to know if there were any controllers out there that are as "capable" as the 40.160 because they are becoming seriously scarce and I'm pretty sure if I could get ahold of one and something happened to it, getting it repaired would likely be tough, in regards to my second question, I've never had any experience with them and didn't exactly understand why exactly they were so revered by straightaway guys exactly, especially with a. 160/200A rating when I knew there were more amps being pulled than that.. I apologies if I offended anyone, I just wanted to learn something new that may possibly help me go fast in the future.

[Chilli]

AJ, I didnt find anything you said offensive nor did I think any of your questions were off base. Keep an eye out for a SAW's event in Huntsville later this year. You will learn 10x more attending an event than you will on the boards. The competitors wont share all their secrets but people are a bit more free with info because everyone tries to help each other out.

Yo Keith, you need to lay off the Red Bull late at night bro. :smile:

[Fluid]

....I'm pretty sure if I could get ahold of one and something happened to it, getting it repaired would likely be tough....Not at all. A club member just sent in a dozen 40-160s to Matthias and they were repaired/updated quickly. It did take three weeks for the mail to return them though....there was a high pucker factor before they finally arrived.



.

[pond skipper]

Well thanks guys, I appreciate the insight and thank you chilli for having my back on that one. Looking like my best bet will still be to go with MGM, just need to figure out weather or not the 250A version or the 400A version will be better suited for the task, I guess I should clarify that I'm not actually out to break anyone's records but to beat my own personal best speeds, I'm not a namba or an IMPBA member, my father and I use to run at municipal park here in Mobile Alabama back in the early 90s and always did monos, believe it or not he's still got his red metal flake top white bottom sightler hull and I'm probably going to give him my castle 2028 and hydra ice 200hv just so he can get it running again just to have fun, what I'm building is a 90/100 seaducer with the same color scheme as his boat and my p-mono seaducer, I'll be running a neu 2220 1y on 10s 1p and have to play with props to see where it's happiest. Hopefully I'll be able to break 90 but this is simply something me and him do just to have fun and enjoy, and we wanted to build a big FAST mono, mainly just to see if we can. I know it will be limited to just a few fast passes but that's really all I wana do anyway.

[keithbradley]

Perhaps the tone of my post was not clear...I definitely wasn't offended by anyone's post, and I really don't understand what prompted the red Bull comment.
My post was pretty genuine...I would be interested to know what prompted you to make the red Bull comment chili (in the spirit of clearing up whatever was misunderstood).

[RaceMechaniX]

Pond Skipper,

Now that you mention the application and motor we can make some recommendations. I can tell you that is a lofty target, but very possible. Normally a 25063 MGM would be a very good choice for heat racing, but for SAW you want to opt for the higher power 40063. I have used both of these ESC's and have had good success with the 22 series Neu's, 20 series Castle's and 22 and 30 series Lehner's. A 1P set-up will be hard on the batteries so use the largest capacity, best cells you can get and use very good bullets. You will be up in the 400A range with a competitive prop.

On the good side, the MGM's have reasonable safeties built in so unless you do something really silly you will be OK. On the bad side, you may be well over 400A with a sticky, wet or poor prop choice and the safeties will not let you push through.

TG

[pond skipper]

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind it's a lofty goal, but I feel pretty confident about it. I'll be doing my own prop work, sticking with the X4 series octura 2 blades. As far as packs go I won't have much in the way of options there, I'm going to have to run 2 2s and 2 3s packs in series to achieve 10s and with as little room as I have I doubt they will be able to be much over 5ah if any at all, luckily the 40063 MGM states it's capable of 500A for 5sec, hopefully this is correct! My other thought was a 60-80 seaducer with the neu 2217 1y on 10 s but was scared that it would be too many rpm even under load for the motor it's self and the amp draw would be ridiculous, plus there's even less room inside that hull for everything to fit properly, plus being able to get the CG correct with an esc that weighs in at over a pound would be a task in it's self with the smaller hull.

[pond skipper]

Here's the link to my 33" seaducer running a somewhat oval setup, it's no traxxas mind you but I think it turned out well, this was my first try with a brushless boat, even with how fast it's running now I'm still not seeing over 185a at any point according to the data logging. http://youtu.be/pLH7ZRywt9U

[RaceMechaniX]

I would suggest you speak with Doug Smock, he probably has the most experience I know of with FE Seaducers and SAW's. The MGM 40063 is capable of 500A, but you need really really stiff batteries to crank this out.

Here are some pics I have saved over the years.

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[RaceMechaniX]

more;

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[pond skipper]

Thanks for the photos man! As far as Doug's concerned, I doubt he would be willing to help out much considering I'm basically building the exact same boat he's set all his records with for t mono, I've tried to talk to him but he's very hush hush .. I guess he thinks I may be out to try and take his record, which I'm not, but don't really blame him, if I had put as much time and effort in to achieve the things he has I'd be reluctant to share anything with someone like me either I suppose. He did offer a few words of advice for the 33" seaducer of mine which is now up to 67 on an oval setup which is nuts. Which brings me to another question, why in the world does the speed calc on here say it should only run 55-57 when I put in everything about the setup on it? It was running 63 in that video.

[Doug Smock]

AJ I have answered all of your emails and PMs. What have I missed?
I'd love to see you and your dad at the Record Trials, expected you last year. And as I have told you. I'll do anything I can to help you guys regardless of the class your running.

Records are icing on the cake. The main course and why I'm involved is what takes place prior to that.:wink:


D.

[pond skipper]

Hey Doug, I had sent you an email or two in the last couple weeks or so about building a t-mono and didn't hear back, I didn't know if I had pushed a button or something by asking about a T SAW mono. Dad and I were going to come out and watch last year but work dictated otherwise, I would still like to come out and meet some of you guys but I don't have any plans of running at any of the saw events, lol I'm not even a IMPBA or NAMBA member, dad was a LONG time ago but after the city shut down all the racket making nitro boats we pretty much got out of it till I ended up finding FE again a few years back.

[Doug Smock]

The last email I have for you was on Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:08 PM
Re send it (them) if you still have questions. Always glad to help. Maybe you guys can make it to Huntsville this fall.

I'm one of those guys that you don't have to wonder if you've pushed my buttons, you'll know.:smile:

[pond skipper]

Lol I got ya, I'm the same way. I'll resend it if it's still in my sent messages, it would be nice if we could make it but that's usually the busy time of year with the company I work for, if it ends up being in October you can pretty much count me out, I'll be in Farley nuclear power plant in Dothan AL for the entire month.

[pond skipper]

I just resent them, there were 2. Let me know if you don't get them.

[Ralf]

Hi Tyler, did you ever get 500A input current out of the 40063 without the Esc is reducing output power by itself?

[RaceMechaniX]

Hello Ralf,

No I have not, I have seen peaks on accels that were just a single data point that were over 500A, but came back to lower values quickly. However under high sustained currents over 400A lasting longer than 2-3 seconds, the power is always pulled back. This is the same for the smaller 25063, 25035 and 28026.

I have also performed a good bit of testing on the MGM's in industrial applications with similar limiting. Of course, the HBC versions are de-rated appropriately compared to the TMM versions. I have measured high continuous currents in these applications, however using regulated power supplies and conditioned water.

TG

[Ralf]

Hi,

thx for the info. This Phase-Peak-Current control is both a blessing and a curse at the same time... ;)
On the hardware side there would be a lot of potential for our application.

Regards

[RaceMechaniX]

Ralf I could not agree more. I do understand why they do it although it would be nice to increase that window just by several seconds for SAW applications. Sending you a PM.

TG