trim tabs on miss geico

[kfxguy]

Hi, new guy here. New to boating but not rc. I got bit by the boat bug about a month ago and bought a shockwave 26. Then ended up buying a miss geico 29. The bouncing....omg. cant stand it. I ordered the offset rudder. Tried different strut positions. Tried different battery positions. Tried different props. I have an x642 on there at the moment. I thought about putting trim tabs on. I know some of you dont agree with that but it doesnt bother me. I read on here where one guy put trim tabs on and it helped. Didnt really elaborate tho.

What do you guys think. Btw, sanding and repainting to blue print the bottom is not something I want to do. Heres my fleet btw. What ive collected in a month lol

[Darin Jordan]

Trim tabs on a Cat can help, but they are a band-aide for a setup issue. They induce drag, that will force the nose down.

I will be the first to admit that the MG has some "bounce" to it out of the box. However, most have been able to tune this out using proper strut and battery position, and picking the right prop. There are countless threads on it here.

Let us know how the tabs work out for you. Could be the ticket.

If you get adventurous, look at my "MG Race Prep" thread and attack the job of blue-printing the ride surfaces. This helps a ton. None of my race-boats "bounce", but they've been tuned and tweaked to get them there. The factory ride-pads are pretty "concave". Put a straight-edge on them to see yourself. Takes some work to get flat, but worth it if you are really interested in optimal performance.

Hopefully, Pro Boat can work with their manufacturers to get these a little cleaner out of the molds so this kind of custom work wouldn't be necessary.

[photohoward1]

Rase the strut to about a 1/4" above the sponsons. You may have to open up the strut to do it though. I have no Bounce in mine. Also put it on a flat table and check to see
how straight it is. They need work.

[kfxguy]

I would have never bought this boat had I researched it better beforehand. Its dupposed to be rtr out the box. Then it says capable of 50+ mph. Yea right. At 35mph mine blew over. Im a proboat fan obviously, but the thought of sanding and repainting a 4 day old boat just to be able to drive it, just doesnt sit right with me. Youd think proboat would have taken notice of this issue and corrected it by now.

[photohoward1]

Welcome to the world or RTR Boats. Start researching some better hulls. There are tons if you want to put all the hardware on yourself.
You will find all boats need some work.

[SloHD]

Some guys say blue printing works wonders, some guys say its a waste of time. :noidea:

I've been able to get the bounce out of my mystic. You need to adjust the strut up and angle down, and battery placement for CG. Every hull is slightly different. You just need to tweak, and tweak, and tweak some more until you get it to stop bouncing.

You have to find that sweet spot where she rides high but stays stable.

[Darin Jordan]

I would have never bought this boat had I researched it better beforehand. Its dupposed to be rtr out the box. Then it says capable of 50+ mph. Yea right. At 35mph mine blew over. Im a proboat fan obviously, but the thought of sanding and repainting a 4 day old boat just to be able to drive it, just doesnt sit right with me. Youd think proboat would have taken notice of this issue and corrected it by now.

If you take it out of the box, throw 6S in it, and expect to go 50, it ain't happening. If you take a few minutes to set it up properly, THEN throw 6S in it, you'll get very, very close. It's not like an RC car... You don't just DRIVE it fast... You have to get it setup first.

I've NEVER blown one of these off the water, and I RACE them near 50mph all the time. I've rolled them a lot, but it's pretty rare to blow one off, if they are setup correctly.

Set your strut height, get your batteries in the right location, and go play.

All that said, just because the box says it is CAPABLE of 50mph on 6S, doesn't mean you can just GET there without some tinkering... No two of these are alike and you have to make some adjustments to go from stable at 35mph, to stable at 50...

That's just the nature of Boats and running across the water.

SO... Exactly WHAT is your setup right now??

1) Strut Height? (3/16 - 1/4" above the table)
2) Strut Angle?? (FLAT - no upward or downward angle)
3) Battery Position?? (CG should start around 30%, or ~8.75-9" from the back of the sponsons. )

Let's start from there...

[Darin Jordan]

... Believe me... I, of all people, would LOVE for these to come out perfectly out of the box. Believe me! Everytime someone finds a flaw, I do feedback the information to Pro Boat in an effort to get it corrected, or at least note it for the next development phase.

All I can say is that I think they are getting better every year. All RTRs have some kind of issue out of the box. Production compromises and costs and a companies desire for a profit margin can often create less that perfect designs or products.

Hopefully, we can build on the experiences each time to create better and better products.

They are certainly better than they used to be, and, I think, getting better with each release.

:)

[ray schrauwen]

Just a setup Question Darin: At the Mi Cup last June I ran my modded Geico in P-Limited offshore and P-limited cat. The strut is level with hull bottom and in the 4min race I ran a OSE S/B M445, in the 6 lap sprint I ran same AQ1800kv motor esc and batts but, used a D/T x447 prop.

Since I flipped once in offshore I was out of the running but, the motor and esc were decent temps coming back after 4 min. After the 6 lapper races I had to Post cool the motor because it was hitting 150*F+ . I am going to add extra cooling so motor gets fresh water but, can you advise me on anything I could change to bring temps down? I did come in 1st place in the 6 lapper event and the motor is still going fine but, too hot for my liking.

Any suggestions?

[kfxguy]

Well im not sure of my strut angle or height. I tried it all over the place. If I raise it like you guys suggest, my mph goes from 37.2 to 30mph. Thats alot and it doesnt completely cure the wawawa that it does. I ordered the offset rudder from a black jack. Im going to try trim tabs this weekend. Ill of course report back. I sldo have a 1515 2200kv castle motor to go in it. Ive already put a 120 amp turnigy esc in.

[Darin Jordan]

The strut is level with hull bottom and in the 4min race I ran a OSE S/B M445, in the 6 lap sprint I ran same AQ1800kv motor esc and batts but, used a D/T x447 prop.

I've never tried it with the AQ motor, but your strut seems too low to me for that diameter of prop. A lot of blade in the water...

If found that these hulls handle REALLY well with a smaller diameter prop, like an X440/3, with some pitch added if necessary. The 1800 AQ motor is truely 1800KV, and has lots of torque. The 2030 is actually more like 1960KV, so if you figure out the % difference there, you can figure out how much more pitch you need at 1800KV to make up for the speed.

Mine would trip on the outside sponson in rougher water once things get choppy with the X447 or X450 props (running 1500KV at the time). Boat was REALLY fast... I was usually out front by a good margin when it would happen. With the higher KV and smaller prop, it doesn't seem to happen.

Hope this helps some.

[kfxguy]

Id split the cooling up. Stock motor on 4s with x642 prop mine runs pretty warm with stock cooling. Ill be doing d
some cooling mods this week.

[kfxguy]

What prop should I try with the castle 2200kv on 4s. 1515 series motor. Im looking for about 50mph

[Darin Jordan]

What prop should I try with the castle 2200kv on 4s. 1515 series motor. Im looking for about 50mph

With that power system, on 4S, if you can't hit a VERY confortable 50mph with an ABC 42x55 (Grim 42x55)... then you aren't doing something right!

[Darin Jordan]

... I would look at an X440/3 as well. You can run the strut right about at the bottom of the sponsons (flat on the table), or slightly up (1/16" or so)... Boat should comfortably run with that setup. There is way more power there than the hull can realistically handle, so your goal shouldn't be a problem.

Like Howard and others have said, however, it takes some setup and getting the balance right.

[kfxguy]

I have a 1512 2650kv castle too. What about 3s on it? That setup is in my shockwave right now. You want to see something grossly overpowered.....check this out
My geico is at the end of the video. The shockwave is on 3s with the castle 2650kv motor.

Heres the shockwave 26 on 4s with a smaller prop. With the larger prop it was way more uncontrollable. Lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpOcOZhVuV0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Ydin1C8d0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

heres the shockwave again

[Darin Jordan]

I have a 1512 2650kv castle too. What about 3s on it? That setup is in my shockwave right now. You want to see something grossly overpowered.....check this out
My geico is at the end of the video. The shockwave is on 3s with the castle 2650kv motor.


I'd proceed with the 1515 1Y if it were me. A pair of 2S packs, one in each side, and watch your runtime. You'll find you can run almost as long as you did with the stock setup, however. The Neus are just way more efficient, and that motor won't even be working hard with that boat, which is what you want.

Then, concentrate on tuning and getting it handling right. Once you are there, then learn how to "tweak" props and play with the prop you already know works.

[photohoward1]

If he leaves the setup the same and just swaps power systems he will still have the same problems. I am concerned that it was only good for 37. My setup and an m445 was getting close to 50. I could go up to an m447 but the aq1800 was at its limit. Personally I have swapped better motors in for sport running all about 2200kv and stuck with the same props. Most setups only pull 80 to 90 amps and are all over 50mph. I swapped a neu 1515/1y 2200kv into my spec rigger with a H7 and hit 63. Everything was under 100 degrees on a 120 amp controller. Just keep working it.

[Darin Jordan]

If he leaves the setup the same and just swaps power systems he will still have the same problems. I am concerned that it was only good for 37. My setup and an m445 was getting close to 50. I could go up to an m447 but the aq1800 was at its limit. Personally I have swapped better motors in for sport running all about 2200kv and stuck with the same props. Most setups only pull 80 to 90 amps and are all over 50mph. I swapped a neu 1515/1y 2200kv into my spec rigger with a H7 and hit 63. Everything was under 100 degrees on a 120 amp controller. Just keep working it.

I don't disagree, Howard... The 1800KV AQ with the same 42x55 should still be good for at least 45mph... consistently. My IM31 with the Pro Boat 1800 (which admittedly doesn't have the power that the 1800AQ has), with that prop, is a 42mph boat, and it's a mono...

Listen to Howard... He knows! :)

[kfxguy]

So stock with just a prop change on 4s it runs 37mph. It should be faster?

[Darin Jordan]

So stock with just a prop change on 4s it runs 37mph. It should be faster?

If it's blowing off the water at that speed, then yes... with the right prop... and setup properly. A prop change on the Revolt with that motor is good for well into the 40's... and it's a Mono...

[kfxguy]

Mine has a 1500kv motor. Am I missing something?

[Darin Jordan]

Mine has a 1500kv motor. Am I missing something?

No, I must have missed something... I thought you said it had an Aquacraft 1800KV motor... I'm responding to too many threads today! :)

You'll need 6S with the 1500KV motor to go 50... (is that really on the box?? They must have added it recently, because it didn't used to be... Did it come with an 80A ESC??)

You CAN get there with the 4S setup, but you'll need to run an X447/3 or similar prop... My stock MG, one of the very first in the country, hit 47-48mph using a Prather 230 prop... Handling isn't ideal with that much prop, however.

[kfxguy]

Came with a 60 amp esc. I yanked it before running it and and put a 120 amp esc in. The box does say capable of 50 plus mph. So you saying I need a three blade prop?

[tlandauer]

You have gotten great advice PERSONALLY from Darin, that is great! I really don't want to hijack, but I understand that he is busy and you are waiting for responses, so if I may tell you my opinion on this: it is admirable that you don't mind going thru the trouble putting trim tabs on, and you seem to have two goals at the same time, hit 50+ mph and get rid of the wawawa's.
If I were you I will concentrate on getting rid of the bounce first, then you can increase your speed.
My MG came with a 2200kv ( Leopard4082) , out of the box ( new boat and motor) with a X642 it clocked 53+ mph. But I was bothered by the bounces, tried everything, in the end I trued the last two steps of the sponsons and the bounce was gone. So I am a believer in that process. You need to also adjust the angle of the strut, just by moving it up won't do most of the time because the stuffing tube is arched and pulling it up will result in an excessive positive thrust prop. Like someone said, you need to enlarge the hole on the strut blade so you can "gain" adjustability on the strut. I believe there is a thread by a member and in it he showed pictures of just what I am saying.
To you and Darin I apologize for interrupting.

[kfxguy]

No need to apologize. I appreciate your response. Im gonna mess around with it this weekend. I did change angles, height etc. Didnt make the hole bigger tho. If I can find a lime green paint color I like then ill flatten the bottom and repaint it. Seems like alot of work tho for something that shouldnt have such a bad flaw from the get go. I never noticed a motley crew doing this in all the vids I watched. O well. Ill over come it.

[kfxguy]

So I put a straight edge on my ride pads this evening. The rear two are perfectly flat. The bost does not sit flat on my counter however. It teeters. I moved the strut to be level with the ride pads. It was hanging 1/4" lower how I had it.

[tlandauer]

That's good news! You are right: 1/4" below is too low. Raise it gradually and observe. Watch out for the angle as you raise it---as Darin said, it should be neutral. I had to point mine down to have 1-1.5* negative, otherwise I will catch air and blow over on a straight pass, no such issue if I drive in a large turning radius.
The inner edge of the last two ride pads should be flat on your table, or at least symmetrically shaped. Then the sponsons curve upward as you go to the front. Yes, if you "rock" the boat front and back, it will have a slight "seesaw" movement, but when the boat is riding correctly on the water, I believe these two sections of riding pads count the most.
My MG was the earlier batch and if I put a straight edge there will be lower"valley" spots on those ride pads, though not too bad but enough to warrant a closer look and fix. There are other members who had gone further to improve the pads and I am sure you will find plenty info on that. Not trying to say that is what you need to do---obviously your pads are good, I am just saying my case.

[kfxguy]

Im considering selling it and just taking a loss. Its got two runs on it. I think I might just get a mean machine hull. What would be a fair price minus the electronics?

[Darin Jordan]

Im considering selling it and just taking a loss. Its got two runs on it. I think I might just get a mean machine hull. What would be a fair price minus the electronics?

Well... we tried... Best of luck.

[kfxguy]

Well... we tried... Best of luck.

Lol. Im on the fence about it. I wanna like this boat but im not sure I wanna put the time into it. Ill already ordered a few things for it do im still gonna try them this weekend. Ill report back. Btw, my pads in the rear are perfectly flat.

[Darin Jordan]

Btw, my pads in the rear are perfectly flat.

If you put a straight-edge across the pads both laterally and longitudinally, across the entire pad, my experience with this boat tells me you'll find that the ride-pads have concavity to them ("hooks").

Further, I'm certain that the trailing edges of the pads are rounded, and not 90-degrees.

Both of these things can/will cause issues with how slippery the hull is in the water. The "hooks" act like suction cups, grabbing, then releasing, and generally "sucking" the hull to the water's surface. At speed, this can induce an occillation, or "bounce"...

The rounded trailing edges cause the water to follow the rounded edge up the back of the ride-surface a bit, again, causing drag.

I wish that some of this could be "manufactured" out of these, but mass production doesn't always allow it. I will say that Pro Boat is aware of this and they are working to improve the processes.

In the meantime, the rest of us tinker and fix these issues ourselves. Not that hard to do and the results are usually very worth it.

As for repainting the bottoms... I was able to prep all of my race-boats, and then I used some white paint to paint just the ride-pads. They look really good this way.


http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33497&d=1285554420


You can see the whole process by checking out this thread. http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?17514-Miss-Geico-Race-Prep

[kfxguy]

If you put a straight-edge across the pads both laterally and longitudinally, across the entire pad, my experience with this boat tells me you'll find that the ride-pads have concavity to them ("hooks").

Further, I'm certain that the trailing edges of the pads are rounded, and not 90-degrees.

Both of these things can/will cause issues with how slippery the hull is in the water. The "hooks" act like suction cups, grabbing, then releasing, and generally "sucking" the hull to the water's surface. At speed, this can induce an occillation, or "bounce"...

The rounded trailing edges cause the water to follow the rounded edge up the back of the ride-surface a bit, again, causing drag.

I wish that some of this could be "manufactured" out of these, but mass production doesn't always allow it. I will say that Pro Boat is aware of this and they are working to improve the processes.

In the meantime, the rest of us tinker and fix these issues ourselves. Not that hard to do and the results are usually very worth it.

As for repainting the bottoms... I was able to prep all of my race-boats, and then I used some white paint to paint just the ride-pads. They look really good this way.


http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33497&d=1285554420


You can see the whole process by checking out this thread. http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?17514-Miss-Geico-Race-Prep

Thanks for all your responses. Youve made me realuze something. If I do put short trim tabs off the back it would pretty much be the same as squaring off the back of the pad, no? Im going to straight edge them again. If they need to be done, I guess ill do it. This boat needs to be stable with the castle 2200kv motor if about to get. I might as well tinker with it a bit. Then after learning more I can move on to something faster. Prolly not a good idea wanting to jump straight into a 70+mph boat this early in my learning curve. Ive got a lathe, mill, vacuum bagging carbon fiber setup and other stuff at my disposal to work with.

[kfxguy]

Btw, check out this catamaran. Has trim tabs. I can adjust the same bounce out of it with them. Lol

106349

[Brushless01]

I run a BEC with a stock Geico and an x642 would it be safe to check 6s in it for around 2 minutes just to get a feel of the power?

[kfxguy]

I run a BEC with a stock Geico and an x642 would it be safe to check 6s in it for around 2 minutes just to get a feel of the power?

Nope

[Darin Jordan]

With the 80A ESC that comes in the newer BJ29's and IM31 V2, you can run 6S with the stock setup (BEC)... I don't think that's the case with the older 60A ESC... Should say in the specs that are included, or on the website.

[ray schrauwen]

Yes if the ride pads are short enough it would act as if the transom of the sponsons was a very sharp 90* but, I prefer to just redo the sponsons myself. They most likely don't make them 90* because it's harder to get the part to release out of the mold. Faster production, make more money.



Thanks for all your responses. Youve made me realuze something. If I do put short trim tabs off the back it would pretty much be the same as squaring off the back of the pad, no? Im going to straight edge them again. If they need to be done, I guess ill do it. This boat needs to be stable with the castle 2200kv motor if about to get. I might as well tinker with it a bit. Then after learning more I can move on to something faster. Prolly not a good idea wanting to jump straight into a 70+mph boat this early in my learning curve. Ive got a lathe, mill, vacuum bagging carbon fiber setup and other stuff at my disposal to work with.

[kfxguy]

With the 80A ESC that comes in the newer BJ29's and IM31 V2, you can run 6S with the stock setup (BEC)... I don't think that's the case with the older 60A ESC... Should say in the specs that are included, or on the website.

Mine is the newest version and its a 60 amp esc. It eill handle 5s for a short time. Split the cooling and it will have a better chance at surviving.

[kfxguy]

I went ahead and installed trim tabs tonight and I split the cooling to the motor and esc. I was going to just glue the tabs on but the glue wouldnt stick. Plus I realized I may need to move them around a bit. I ended up screwing them on. Two small pieces of wood I epoxied on the inside for the screws to grab and to reinforce it.

106375

106376

106377

[iop65]

i used the 60A on 5s (without the bec) for the whole summer with a 40 mm 1.4 tenshock prop , works perfect

[kfxguy]

i used the 60A on 5s (without the bec) for the whole summer with a 40 mm 1.4 tenshock prop , works perfect

I'd imagine it would. That a small not very aggressive prop.

[Darin Jordan]

Doesn't look like you've sharpened the leading edge of your rudder yet... Feel it... it's blunt... Might want to do that.

Tabs might help your situation, but that big, rounded off leading edge gap on them where they meet the sponson will be contributing to the drag. Again, it MIGHT benefit you, but ultimatly, you'd want those nice and tight against the sponsons.

Water doesn't break cleanly off of a rounded/curved trailing edge.

[kfxguy]

Doesn't look like you've sharpened the leading edge of your rudder yet... Feel it... it's blunt... Might want to do that.

Tabs might help your situation, but that big, rounded off leading edge gap on them where they meet the sponson will be contributing to the drag. Again, it MIGHT benefit you, but ultimatly, you'd want those nice and tight against the sponsons.

Water doesn't break cleanly off of a rounded/curved trailing edge.

thanks for the tip on the rudder. Didnt think of that. Yea I really need to bend the tabs in a brake. Those are temp tabs. I have some better material coming.

[kfxguy]

Here's an update. I put a offset rudder on along with trim tabs. Im not sure what you guys mean by adding more drag as the boat is faster than the hull can handle. Pretty much all the wawawa is gone now. Im keeping the trim tabs on. Here's a video of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Nlm9SVKJ8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Darin Jordan]

Here's an update. I put a offset rudder on along with trim tabs. Im not sure what you guys mean by adding more drag as the boat is faster than the hull can handle. Pretty much all the wawawa is gone now. Im keeping the trim tabs on. Here's a video of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Nlm9SVKJ8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's a Band-Aide fix, but if it works, that's the end result we all want.

Enjoy...

[skyhighdiver]

Don't care what is said I love all three of my mgs even though there all painted mystic colors now



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbyiTND5IkA&feature=share&list=UUiCKThGq7Cj0lATNSFv2PJA

[kfxguy]

Don't care what is said I love all three of my mgs even though there all painted mystic colors now



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbyiTND5IkA&feature=share&list=UUiCKThGq7Cj0lATNSFv2PJA

What does that have to do with trim tabs?




Update: I like the better adjustability the tabs give me so I ordered some better ones with set screws.

[skyhighdiver]

he was saying the boat was junk and does not run smooth. Oh but it does

[kfxguy]

he was saying the boat was junk and does not run smooth. Oh but it does

Well it might not be junk, but its not far from it. Since I have a daytona and a cheetah in my possession, I can tell a huge difference in quality and design. The geico is more inline with a "toy" straight out the box. It needs lots of work in my opinion to get it right. Then it still isn't right. Go look at your boat and compare the center section to the pic below and you'll see why over 55-60mph they don't stay on the water.

107803

[mannytx1]

strut closer to the transom / sponsor is more stable catamaran
111219111220111221

[kfxguy]

no bouncing
111219111220111221


Not sure what the pics prove for no boucing. Lol

[mannytx1]

HI, KFXGUY
strut closer to the transom / sponsor is more stable catamaran111237

miss geico hull design for two motors111239

Miss Geico 29, mystic29,blackjack 29
3 1/2 "causes bouncing111240

[mannytx1]

Hi, new guy here. New to boating but not rc. I got bit by the boat bug about a month ago and bought a shockwave 26. Then ended up buying a miss geico 29. The bouncing....omg. cant stand it. I ordered the offset rudder. Tried different strut positions. Tried different battery positions. Tried different props. I have an x642 on there at the moment. I thought about putting trim tabs on. I know some of you dont agree with that but it doesnt bother me. I read on here where one guy put trim tabs on and it helped. Didnt really elaborate tho.

What do you guys think. Btw, sanding and repainting to blue print the bottom is not something I want to do. Heres my fleet btw. What ive collected in a month lol

Motley Crew trim tabs lol...111241

[mannytx1]

... Believe me... I, of all people, would LOVE for these to come out perfectly out of the box. Believe me! Everytime someone finds a flaw, I do feedback the information to Pro Boat in an effort to get it corrected, or at least note it for the next development phase.

All I can say is that I think they are getting better every year. All RTRs have some kind of issue out of the box. Production compromises and costs and a companies desire for a profit margin can often create less that perfect designs or products.

Hopefully, we can build on the experiences each time to create better and better products.

They are certainly better than they used to be, and, I think, getting better with each release.

:)

distance between strut / prop and sponson 3.1 / 2 "causes bouncing111243hi, miss geico, mystic and black jack is 27 ", 29" repeated mistake .
27" distance from the bow - sponson. (sling portion is not counted)
CG 27 "/ 3 = 9" from the sponson