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petej
06-26-2013, 01:51 AM
Curious to which radio you prefer in your FE boats, Futaba or Spektrum or other and why?

I have the Spektrum DX2S and use MR3000 and MR200 receivers in my boats. I've never been able to to feed an antennae wire through the hull, up the antennae tube, so I just route the two wires in the hull. I do experience occasional drop-outs with my CF Zonda Cat. Otherwise, they work very well and Spektrum MR3000 receivers seem more water resistant then the MR200.
The Futaba Tactic system that came with my Motley Crew I use with a rescue tug. The receiver is down in the hull and even at great distance, the tug always responds.

ozzie-crawl
06-26-2013, 02:22 AM
I swapped from a dx3s to a airtronics mt4 for my cars as there was the issue of brown outs with savox servos and spektrum.
The mt4 is so much better and faster. But know starting to play with boats again i am having range issues with the mt4 and i have about 4" of ariel out of the hull.
Same area with a dx2 and mr200 i have no issues.

tlandauer
06-26-2013, 03:58 AM
Seems to be the hot topic of the month!
I used Futaba on my land vehicles and those were the days when FM was the rage, so it's been a while since I used Futaba. Loved them, never an issue even with an AM system.
Since getting into FE, I have only used Tactic and Spektrum, interestingly enough, they both brown out at the same spot where I go, with the Tactic being faster to re-establish communication. Another observation with the Spektrum: I find the Spektrum will take a moment sometimes when I first connect the batteries to the ESC. You need to wait like 5 or 6 sec. before any signs of life ( RX light or rudder twitch) would appear.
I like them both but I do prefer the water resistance ability of the MR3000. It is potted and encased in epoxy. The MR200 has conformal coating and is less water resistant. I always wrap the Tactic in a tiny zip lock bag that is intended for madicine. With the Spektrum I do it both with the antanna inside or one in and one out per the instruction.
Recently I got an Airtronics MX-3X from my LHS, they were on sale and I put one in a CF hull, worked flawlessly as well, then I used my Flysky GT-3B in another CF hull, guess what? it too worked like a dream.
Bottom line is you need to feel comfortable with the equipment you are using, and I think alot has to do with budget and trust. I have witnessed racers using the Flysky GT-3B with utter confidence, any still some people would not touch these units.

Fluid
06-26-2013, 06:48 AM
I ran a Futaba 4PK FASST for several years, zero issues and great features. But it was destroyed in a car wreck, and I replaced it with a Spektrum DX3R PRO. I see no difference in control, no "brownouts", etc. I run the antenna outside all my boats except for two. I had tried Tactics in them but had spotty control, the MR3000 receivers ended that. Really, the only notable difference I could see between the top-end Futaba and Spektrum was the price.

BTW, AFAIK Futaba does not make the Tactic radios.

.

Jeff
06-26-2013, 07:26 AM
I was told the new futaba fhss sytem works even better than the fasst sytem over water. The recievers are less money also.

Fluid
06-26-2013, 07:32 AM
Perhaps, but my FASST was flawless to over 1000 feet of range with never a failure. Hard to improve on perfection. Maybe it is "better" because it is cheaper than the FASST...





.

fjelling
06-26-2013, 07:38 AM
I use the 4pl with the fhss system in all my cars and boats.
I have never had any issues and I have tested carbon boat without antenna outside with no problems.
And the recievers are 1/3 of the price:)
But over here, the gas guys say they have blackouts with it.

boredom.is.me
06-26-2013, 08:55 AM
Carbon fiber and 2.4ghz doesn't work. Of course you are going to have brownouts. It doesn't matter what radio you have. You have to get the antenna out of the carbon fiber. That's why helicopters use multiple satellite receivers.

Edit:
Combine that with the fact that water's natural frequency is ~2.4ghz and you need up with a situation where the signal is being blocked or absorbed.

iridebikes247
06-26-2013, 09:24 AM
I use futaba 3 pm-x, this thing can be had for 170 bucks on ebay. I have run quite a few 2.4ghz radios near a police station which is adjacent to a huge powerplant, radios do some wacky things to say the least. The futaba never a single glitch I sometimes drive the boat as far away as possible in shallow water near the shoreline to test the radio, my eyes fail me before the radio.

Chilli
06-26-2013, 11:48 AM
I love the Futaba 3PM. Not one glitch in five years using the 603FF or FS. I got mine used on Ebay.

Diesel6401
06-26-2013, 01:10 PM
I use a DX3s on land and sea and a DX8 in the air. I am all Spektrum. I do however use a Tactic system in my rescue boat without any issues. The Tactic systems are becoming more popular in land, air and sea. They are a great value for sure.

I think you guys are also using the term "brownout" incorrectly. A signal lose and a brownout are 2 completely different things. A brownout is when the the voltage to the rx dips below the safe threshold typically around 3.5v or so. Signal lose is just that, lose of signal. You can lose signal w/o experiencing a brownout, you also can suffer a brownout w/o actually "feeling" a lose of signal. A brownout is notified by the rx flashing (spektrum), a signal lose you may not have a flashing rx. Spektrum makes a log reader that will display the actual number of holds (failsafes) as well as signal fades.


3. Q: Is it true that Spektrum systems are less tolerant of low voltage?

A: All Spektrum receivers require at least 3.5V to operate normally. Most servos
cease to operate below 3.8V. Using multiple high-voltage servos, however,
with an inadequate power supply can allow voltage to momentarily drop below
3.5V. This will cause the receiver to “brown out” and reconnect.All recently
manufactured JR and Spektrum 2.4GHz receivers feature QuickConnect
technology that will reconnect the system within a quarter of a second should a
brown out occur.

Just wanted to mention that!

UUNL0zBzlEM

Darin Jordan
06-26-2013, 03:29 PM
Really, the only notable difference I could see between the top-end Futaba and Spektrum was the price.

Well... and the fact that the MR-series RX's are water "resistant" (same as water-proof... but without the legal liability to keep the marketing department happy... ;) )

ProfileBroKen
06-26-2013, 03:45 PM
Seems to be the hot topic of the month!
I have witnessed racers using the Flysky GT-3B with utter confidence, any still some people would not touch these units.

+1 for the Flysky GT-3B. Bought it from Hobbypartz, modified it, and flashed the firmware per the RCgroups thread on the subject. Super capable, low cost, and so far it has been bulletproof.

NativePaul
06-26-2013, 04:44 PM
I got a Futaba 6EX as I favour stick radios and the 6 channel plane radio is cheaper than the 3 channel car one for some reason, likewise the RX costs less. I have been very happy with it and have had no problems, however if I was getting into 2.4 from scratch now I would go for Multiplex or Hitec's offerings as it uses a very similar frequency hopping protocol to FASST and now they have dual antenna RXs the radio link is top notch, the RXs are cheaper, and you can not beat Multiplex sticks for smoothness in my opinion.

The Spectrum Marine receivers have proved unsuitable for self-righting monos, when upside down with the aerial under water the DSM2 link is often not solid enough to stay linked and the MR200 and MR3000 take a lot longer to re establish a link when it self rights than the cheaper AR6200 RXs that come with the DX6i radios commonly used here, I know several people that bought MR series RX and then resigned them to the spares box, replacing them with an AR6200 they have waterproofed themselves.

tlandauer
06-26-2013, 04:57 PM
I got a Futaba 6EX as I favour stick radios and the 6 channel plane radio is cheaper than the 3 channel car one for some reason, likewise the RX costs less. I have been very happy with it and have had no problems, however if I was getting into 2.4 from scratch now I would go for Multiplex or Hitec's offerings as it uses a very similar frequency hopping protocol to FASST and now they have dual antenna RXs the radio link is top notch, the RXs are cheaper, and you can not beat Multiplex sticks for smoothness in my opinion.

The Spectrum Marine receivers have proved unsuitable for self-righting monos, when upside down with the aerial under water the DSM2 link is often not solid enough to stay linked and the MR200 and MR3000 take a lot longer to re establish a link when it self rights than the cheaper AR6200 RXs that come with the DX6i radios commonly used here, I know several people that bought MR series RX and then resigned them to the spares box, replacing them with an AR6200 they have waterproofed themselves.
This is very informative. Your knowledge with the behavior of the MR series in a Self-Righting mono is not shared widely here since these hulls are not that popular in the States. I am also reassured by ( although not in a gleeful way ) the fact that they do take longer to re-establish link as I seem to be the only one saying that.

BHChieftain
06-26-2013, 05:55 PM
I have several monos with flood chambers on mr3000 and mr200 RX and if they just roll they stay linked but if I sub the boat they will break the link and can take up to 15seconds to relink. But I really like the water resistance so that keeps me on the spektrum tech.

(But my helis are futaba all the way!)
Chief

Sent from my XT890 using Tapatalk 2

jstolz
06-26-2013, 05:55 PM
I had one of the older Spektrum radios. I had issues with limited range. I sold it and bought a Futaba Fasst. The Futaba has worked great with no issues. That being said, I will stick with Futaba. However, I know others who own the newer Spektrum radios and like them. I think that either radio would be a good choice today.

JimClark
06-26-2013, 05:58 PM
I had one of the early spektrum 's only one course where there was a dead spot for a lot of people and i even used it in a carbonfiber boat too. I am looking forward to using the DX3C I have recently bought

Livewire121
06-26-2013, 06:13 PM
I used a Futaba 3PKS up until recently when I had problems calibrating a pair of AS26 -150BL Evo ll esc's to it. Before that thou I never had a single glitch or range problem. A few of my friends use Spektrum and have had some minor range problems, but nothing major.

I have now upgraded to a 4PKS-R and calibrated them to the above mentioned esc's without a problem, also the dual esc mixing option works flawlessly.

Richard

ron1950
06-26-2013, 06:43 PM
i run the spectrum dx3r pro and mr3000 in all my boats never had any problems at all...how come u cant run a wire about one inch out of the boat?

Flying Scotsman
06-28-2013, 04:09 PM
I use the Spektrum DX3S with MR200....A good system and the reason I use MR200 receivers is their lower cost, as I run quite a few boats and they suit my needs ....for one or two boats, I would buy the MR3000.

Douggie

rockford
06-30-2013, 07:17 PM
I use a futaba 4pl and it works flawless Everytime in my boat and I race trucks with it also has ridiculous range search YouTube there is a video on range between 3 or 4 controllers and futaba has the best range. Airtronics would be the next best choice but futaba is a bit cheaper

SloHD
06-30-2013, 07:42 PM
I use an airtronics m11x with 92744 receivers. They don't say waterproof but it says in the specs that they're good for boats. I'm almost willing to say they are waterproof besides the bind hole. I covered it up with a little bit of hatch tape, and I have had absolutely no problems. Best connection that you can get besides the new M12... IMO

Jdown26ty
08-12-2013, 05:24 PM
I got a Futaba 6EX as I favour stick radios and the 6 channel plane radio is cheaper than the 3 channel car one for some reason, likewise the RX costs less. I have been very happy with it and have had no problems, however if I was getting into 2.4 from scratch now I would go for Multiplex or Hitec's offerings as it uses a very similar frequency hopping protocol to FASST and now they have dual antenna RXs the radio link is top notch, the RXs are cheaper, and you can not beat Multiplex sticks for smoothness in my opinion.

The Spectrum Marine receivers have proved unsuitable for self-righting monos, when upside down with the aerial under water the DSM2 link is often not solid enough to stay linked and the MR200 and MR3000 take a lot longer to re establish a link when it self rights than the cheaper AR6200 RXs that come with the DX6i radios commonly used here, I know several people that bought MR series RX and then resigned them to the spares box, replacing them with an AR6200 they have waterproofed themselves.


Does anyone else use 72-75 mhz air radios on the water. Is this a safe option?

grsboats
08-12-2013, 07:09 PM
For years I ran 75mHz Futaba rádios with zero issues,then stuck to the PCM and since the release of the 2,4Ghz no way to go back,but I see no problems to run those frequencies with a radio working fine.Gill

T.S.Davis
08-12-2013, 07:49 PM
Darin, I have no affiliation with Spektrum so I can say it......they're waterproof. After a narley blow over I lost a hatch and had the batteries dragging behind the boat with the boat full of water. Drove it to shore before it went down. Cleaned it up and raced it in the next heat with the same RX. Try that with a Futaba.

You can make your boats water tight but it you have a breech on race day and have no extra RX's on hand well......bummer. I guess you can bag em but less than convenient.

ls1fst98
08-12-2013, 08:11 PM
I use the Turnigy gtx3 from hobbyking. thing is awesome. i have yet to modify anything on it. the range is farther than i care to run my car away from me or my boat for that matter. at the price point its unbeatable to me and the receivers are $6. i believe it is the same as a flysky mentioned above.

tlandauer
08-12-2013, 08:19 PM
Darin, I have no affiliation with Spektrum so I can say it......they're waterproof. After a narley blow over I lost a hatch and had the batteries dragging behind the boat with the boat full of water. Drove it to shore before it went down. Cleaned it up and raced it in the next heat with the same RX. Try that with a Futaba.

You can make your boats water tight but it you have a breech on race day and have no extra RX's on hand well......bummer. I guess you can bag em but less than convenient.
May I ask which one were you using? MR3000 or MR200, both of these are my all time favorites, I had a MR3000 under water for more than 30 minutes, no issues, my curiosity is with the less expensive MR200 one, it has conformal coating but not potted like the MR3000. Anyway, thanks in advance.

JimClark
08-12-2013, 08:30 PM
Darin toled me that the mr200 is all I need for what I run

tlandauer
08-12-2013, 08:36 PM
Darin toled me that the mr200 is all I need for what I run
Jim, thanks, that is great to know! :thumbup1:

Livewire121
08-12-2013, 08:48 PM
I agree that the spektrum rx's are water proof, as a few friends of mine use them, and they've had close to a gallon of water in their Spartans. But I've conformal coated all of my Futaba rx's and have never had a problem either. But can you say that the spektrums have the same range?

JimClark
08-12-2013, 09:14 PM
never had any range issues with my older spektrum's have not used my mr200's yet. Then again I race and the course is not a mile away

Cooper
08-12-2013, 09:46 PM
Just a quick question as I stumbled onto this thread. I use spectrum dx3 with the mr3000 twin antenna in a saw boat. One antenna is in a plastic antenna tube extending through the hull, other antenna stick out from the hatch seal ( just about the last 40mm, the effective area). As I am in excess of 100mph in this boat I run a ways away. Sometimes the boat will cut out, intermittently during a slow speed sweeping turn (about 15-20mph) so it's not a brown out. The only time this happens is when the boat is away from me. As I have learned the limit I can run this before the lapse happens. In my honest estimation I would guess that is is no more than 150-175 yards away from me. The to is held vertically to the boat attitude, there is no roost in the line of sight between tx and rx. Is this considered what others are considering to limit? As I hear others say the run till they can't see their boats. I have only used spectrum in my high end things. I use the cheep flysky in other stuff as its hard to beat a $6 rx. I thought about swapping and trying that but before I do that (fail safes I prefer) I just thought I would ask. And use spectrum and knock off rx's in a bunch of planes that go way far and no problem but that's stick tx.

Cooper
08-12-2013, 09:47 PM
Just a quick question as I stumbled onto this thread. I use spectrum dx3 with the mr3000 twin antenna in a saw boat. One antenna is in a plastic antenna tube extending through the hull, other antenna stick out from the hatch seal ( just about the last 40mm, the effective area). As I am in excess of 100mph in this boat I run a ways away. Sometimes the boat will cut out, intermittently during a slow speed sweeping turn (about 15-20mph) so it's not a brown out. The only time this happens is when the boat is away from me. As I have learned the limit I can run this before the lapse happens. In my honest estimation I would guess that is is no more than 150-175 yards away from me. The to is held vertically to the boat attitude, there is no roost in the line of sight between tx and rx. Is this considered what others are considering to limit? As I hear others say the run till they can't see their boats. I have only used spectrum in my high end things. I use the cheep flysky in other stuff as its hard to beat a $6 rx. I thought about swapping and trying that but before I do that (fail safes I prefer) I just thought I would ask. And use spectrum and knock off rx's in a bunch of planes that go way far and no problem but that's stick tx.

Maybe up to 200yards?? At most. After I thought a little more. :)

jetnfast
08-12-2013, 10:35 PM
+1 for the flysky radios. I am running an FS-GT-3C in my Daytona, so far so good.

ozzie-crawl
08-12-2013, 10:39 PM
Cooper. I have a similar issue with airtronics. But it is as I turn back towards myself. Soon as the boat faces me it drops out.
Only does it at low speed.

tlandauer
08-12-2013, 11:29 PM
I had this happen on my maiden run on my MHZ Lizard Xtreme. had a 4" motor mount rail. The MR3000 is outside the rail on Starboard side. I had one run while the boat was turning CCW so the portside was beginning to face me. I suffered a complete break down of communication. Boat went to Throttle Fail Safe mode, but unlike previous experiences with Tactic system, it will not re-establish contact. Had to wait till boat was pushed back to shore by the wind, no big deal, but was a mystery to me.
What I need to say is that on that particular occasion both of the antennas were inside the hull: I have done that on my DF26 and a couple other non CF lined hulls w/o any problem. Obviously, I don't do that on this particular hull any more.

T.S.Davis
08-12-2013, 11:33 PM
I use both but mostly 200's.

Cooper
08-12-2013, 11:37 PM
What ranges are you guys getting? As I'm still not sure what is considered range limits. I know it's not definable like 236'6" but some real people with some actual realistic numbers, not as far as I can see. Before I had eye surgery I could say that was about 50 yards,lol,,, now it is mile+ so a accurate estimation would be helpful. Thanks.

Cooper
08-12-2013, 11:38 PM
What ranges are you guys getting? As I'm still not sure what is considered range limits. I know it's not definable like 236'6" but some real people with some actual realistic numbers, not as far as I can see. Before I had eye surgery I could say that was about 50 yards,lol,,, now it is mile+ so a accurate estimation would be helpful. Thanks.

For me it's like two football fields then the sputtering starts.

madmikepags
08-12-2013, 11:54 PM
8 years futaba 1 glitch but it was a wet reciever, no not waterproof, but they do come back and work after you dry em out.

siberianhusky
08-13-2013, 06:51 AM
AS far as actual distance I don't know, but running a dx2s with marine rx (I use both 2 & 3 channel ones) one antennae verticle out side the hull the other horizontal under the hatches I can run my boats far enough away that I can't really see a 30+" boat, just driving by the rooster tail.
I figure if I can no longer really see the boat I have enough range.
With the stock SR rx the radio came with I'd say a good bit under half that range with the shorty antennae inside the hull.
Changed from Futaba to Spektrum when I went 2.4 strictly because of price and ease of local availability.

martin
08-13-2013, 08:33 AM
Personally Futaba all the way, interestingly bigsquidrc.com have tested an a number of diff radios & Futaba have came out on top every time. Re range as one example
Futaba 3pmx 1764 ft
Futaba 3 prka 1573 ft
Turnigy gtx3 733 ft
Turnigy 3xs 570ft
Spektrum dx3c 486 ft.

BILL OXIDEAN
08-13-2013, 09:52 AM
I've been doing RC for over 30 years, and there are in my opinion 2 top radio mfgrs.
The best being Airtronics. Airtronics radios boast the fastest response time of ANY radio on the market.

Our new M12 responds so fast that companies are now making ESC's that utilize its response time

http://www.airtronics.net/index.php/radios-receivers/2-4-ghz-surface-radios-1/airtronics-m12-competition-pistol-radio-w-rx-471-dry.html

Better yet, I'll let my race manager CK tell you https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hJwzbphrxKA&list=UU_-RMcJwujd0rHecQyMZ7aQ


I've been told time and time again that fast response Isn't vital in boats, I beg to differ.
I used to blow off the water in SAW competition All the time. Once I started running Airtronics again, that all changed. In many cases when the bow rises at high speed
one can back out of the throttle and settle her. I have found decreased response time to aid in that in a major way. Occasionally I have saved myself from clipping a pin saving myself a penalty lap (vital in a heat race).

A faster responding radio makes you feel more "connected" to the model. The great thing is you can actually adjust the latency if you want it slower ; )

The radio has literally Dozens more adjustments. Likely more than you will ever need until we're using mind control : )

SloHD
08-13-2013, 10:57 AM
^ I agree. Airtronics has a full waterproof receiver now as well. Fhss-2 so you can buy an older/cheaper radio if need be...

http://www.airtronics.net/index.php/receivers/2-4ghz-surface-receivers/airtronics-rx-37w-receiver-waterproof-2-4ghz-fh-2-3ch.html

BILL OXIDEAN
08-13-2013, 12:07 PM
^ I agree. Airtronics has a full waterproof receiver now as well. Fhss-2 so you can buy an older/cheaper radio if need be...

http://www.airtronics.net/index.php/receivers/2-4ghz-surface-receivers/airtronics-rx-37w-receiver-waterproof-2-4ghz-fh-2-3ch.html

Wow! These must be new. That was the only thing I saw as an advantage with any other radio!
Ok, Airtronics is the fastest, most reliable radio system you can put in your boat hands down and thats my final answer : )
Customer service is Great as well.

Fluid
08-13-2013, 12:17 PM
A couple months ago I range checked my 3DXR PRO at the local pond. I still had complete control of the boat at over 900 feet - as far away as I could get on the water. I was standing about three feet above the water surface. So much for "published" range tests....

SloHD
08-13-2013, 12:18 PM
Well you won't have the fastest latency with the waterproof receiver since it's fhss2, but it'll still be reliable sanwa. Which is all that matters. :)

siberianhusky
08-13-2013, 04:52 PM
"Personally Futaba all the way, interestingly bigsquidrc.com have tested an a number of diff radios & Futaba have came out on top every time. Re range as one example
Futaba 3pmx 1764 ft
Futaba 3 prka 1573 ft
Turnigy gtx3 733 ft
Turnigy 3xs 570ft
Spektrum dx3c 486 ft"


Yet they still rated the Spektrum above a Futaba 3pm-x and both Turnigy radios, came in behind the 3prka.....
Selective quotes make me laugh, the whole story is quite a bit different than this bs would have you believe.....
http://www.bigsquidrc.com/2-4-ghz-radio-transmitter-shootout-2-final-results/
here are the FULL results from a BASHER site. Not even really boat related, didn't test a marine rx, just the stock SR.....
Might not be the best radio out there but they are better than that quote would have you believe.
I fully admit if money was no object I'd be running either Futaba or Airtronics, for a mid price range radio I still don't think you can beat Spektrum. The fact that I'm 20 minutes from a hobby shop that deals Spektrum sealed the deal. No waiting for stock, no issues with returns, no shipping costs, and I'm supporting a local business not HK!

Doug Smock
08-13-2013, 06:06 PM
I run both Spektrum and Futaba. They have both served me well and I'm not sponsored by either.

I'd switch to Airtronics but my reflexes are so slow I won't benefit from "decreased response time". :closedeyes:

BILL OXIDEAN
08-13-2013, 06:26 PM
I run both Spektrum and Futaba. They have both served me well and I'm not sponsored by either.

I'd switch to Airtronics but my reflexes are so slow I won't benefit from "decreased response time". :closedeyes:

Decreased latency is especially good for those with slow reflexes. It actually compensates for it. If both your reflexes And the response are slow, that's a double slow : )
The gorgeous thing about the Airtronics radio is the latency can be adjusted to be slower, or faster, and I have been sponsored by all 3 of the top radio mfgrs.
All are great radios, but the Airtronics stands out to me in all areas. I now write reviews for a magazine, so my published opinions are completely un-biased.

Fast latency is not to be confused with the 'Twitchiness" of having high speed high torque servos. Its not going to respond to any of your inputs any faster than you send them.
It won't make your servos twitch or oversteer. It just makes your driving Much more precise and enjoyable. In my tests I have found that the farther away from a model you are from a model, the more response lags.
Even with ours I see a significant difference. many times with boats in heat racing we are elevated far above and away from the model. I've noticed this lag in response to be close to a second in some cases.
Remember old video games where the response to the stick inputs just weren't too precise? Switching to Airtronics brought my driving to the 21st century standards. I urge anyone to try one, and post your experience.
Imagine if your body responded slower to your brain inputs? Sounds frustrating. Most don't know any different when it comes to radios. Once one feels the connectivity of a fast response radio, they're sold..

Doug Smock
08-13-2013, 07:10 PM
Wilmer you act like I don't know you.:laugh::hug1:

BILL OXIDEAN
08-13-2013, 07:15 PM
Wilmer you act like I don't know you.:laugh::hug1:

As driver of the fastest legal electric mono in IMPBA and possibly the country plus records director, I assume you know a Few things :tiphat:

I posted that to inform beginner, and intermediate boaters..

T.S.Davis
08-13-2013, 07:32 PM
Wilmer, you're biased towards Airtronics. Not a dig. You should be. I mean that's the point of them being a sponsor. For the public display of affection. :wub: I can see how lower latency could help compensate for slow fingers but what kind of real world difference are we talking? Milliseconds?

For the average human it's also worth while (if performance is similar) to consider how it feels in your hand. Might seem a silly thing to base a decision on but if your going to be holding it for hours at a race it's not that weird. I didn't like the way the Airtonics fit in my hand. The Futaba is a tank. Top heavy. Not sure if over time that would bother me. Probably not if it performance is as everyone says. It absolutely does feel like a solid piece of equipment. More so than any other really. Even the trigger on the Futaba is smoother. SHEESH git a room eh? I liked the Spektrums feel. Fits my hand well. Coupled with the waterproof RX it's a good combo for me.

What's happened to Hitec? They used to make a great radio on the cheap and now nutt'n. I mean the Aggressor is the last I can remember. 10 model memory. Woohoo. :sarcasm1: I still use their servos. Lately I've been using some Savox. Lots of torque to dollar ratio.

I think JR has bailed on surface radios all together.

BILL OXIDEAN
08-13-2013, 07:46 PM
Wilmer, you're biased towards Airtronics. Not a dig. You should be. I mean that's the point of them being a sponsor. For the public display of affection. :wub: I can see how lower latency could help compensate for slow fingers but what kind of real world difference are we talking? Milliseconds?

For the average human it's also worth while (if performance is similar) to consider how it feels in your hand. Might seem a silly thing to base a decision on but if your going to be holding it for hours at a race it's not that weird. I didn't like the way the Airtonics fit in my hand. The Futaba is a tank. Top heavy. Not sure if over time that would bother me. Probably not if it performance is as everyone says. It absolutely does feel like a solid piece of equipment. More so than any other really. Even the trigger on the Futaba is smoother. SHEESH git a room eh? I liked the Spektrums feel. Fits my hand well. Coupled with the waterproof RX it's a good combo for me.

What's happened to Hitec? They used to make a great radio on the cheap and now nutt'n. I mean the Aggressor is the last I can remember. 10 model memory. Woohoo. :sarcasm1: I still use their servos. Lately I've been using some Savox. Lots of torque to dollar ratio.

I think JR has bailed on surface radios all together.

You must not have tried the Airtronics M12 yet. I love the way it feels, but then I like the way a Colt 45 officer's model feels ergonomically, and that's what ours is ergonomically designed after.
Much lighter than our M11X as well besides, our heats are 5-6 minutes tops. I actually pointed my race manager from Airtronics to this thread, so if he finds I'm misrepresenting them, he will be the first to tell me : )
What he CAN see is someone tryna' poke holes in my posts because I'm sponsored : )

JR is out of surface because it conflicted with horizon's sister line Spektrum.

T.S.Davis
08-13-2013, 08:54 PM
I don't think I've seen the M12. Did you have that in CO? I remember you running the the Airtronics then but can't remember the model. Maybe it's one of those "don't knock it till you tried it things". I'm awfully biased toward my Speky despite not being sponsored by them. Could just be all the time I've spent with them. I used to feel that way about my JR too. Loved that padded grip. Right now I have in the shop, Futaba(low end), Hitec, JR, Tactic, Spektrum and a prehistoric Airtronics.

Maybe one day I'll give Airtronics another try. The trouble is that once you've committed to a brand it's tough to change horses if you have many models. The initial investment adds up quick.

Our heats are 5 to 6 minutes max but if you run say 6 classes times 5 rounds times 6 minutes you've spent 3 hours with that puppy in your hands. That's where the comfort becomes relevant. My take at least.

I swear I wasn't trying poke holes. I guess that's why I'm not sponsored. I would feel like I owed that sponsor at least some positive press for having me under their banner. I would start every post with "I am biased, here's what I think anyway".

raptor347
08-13-2013, 11:31 PM
I'm running an 8J Futaba FHSS (I race stick radios). When the 3VCS ceased to exist on our shores, I went looking for a stick radio that was dead reliable and wouldn't break the bank for the average guy. It has worked great for 2 seasons now. Reliable in gas, nitro and electric boat applications (and a couple airplanes:olleyes:).

I've run the FHSS system all the way out to both ends at Legg in my SAW boats and to the edge of sight in a 3m sailplane, never had a link issue.

At this point it's hard to buy a bad radio. Find the one that fits your hand and budget with features you need and go for it.

I find most problems are installation related, attention to detail during the build cuts down on the frustration after the build.

All that said, I like Futaba best (shameless plug). Of course I drive 1000 miles each way to Legg every spring and fall with the Spectrum guy, so I guess we can all get along:wink:.

ozzie-crawl
08-14-2013, 12:25 AM
Still have trouble with my airtronics. 2 different boats with different setups. Beginning to think there is a monster in my pond.
Both drop out in the same place. At my work (hobby shop with indoor off road track) we have good 2.4g internet reception until 3 or 4 guys turn there radios on and it turns to crap. Were I run my boats there is shops across the water that have open wifi. I wonder if these could be the cause of my drop outs ???

DPeterson
08-14-2013, 01:11 AM
LOL

Spent the first 10 years driving Toyotas. The next 10 years driving Chevrolet. Now its all Fords. Mixed in a couple foreign junkers along the way.

Now I drive the biggest baddest most expensive Futaba I can get my hands on. And I have no good explanation why.

Doug

T.S.Davis
08-14-2013, 07:37 AM
haha Doug, because Ferrari doesn't make a radio.

Ken Haines
08-14-2013, 08:03 AM
LOL

Spent the first 10 years driving Toyotas. The next 10 years driving Chevrolet. Now its all Fords. Mixed in a couple foreign junkers along the way.

Now I drive the biggest baddest most expensive Futaba I can get my hands on. And I have no good explanation why.

Doug


Doug,
Just waiting for you to haul in that New "Biggest, Badest" Racing trailer next year !
Maybe we will see it in Michigan ?
I am sure it will be amazing when you finally take the leap. :bounce:


I own Spektrum, Futaba, And Airtronics.
The waterproof MR 3000 receivers convinced me to go almost all Spektrum now.
Some cool features on that DX4S too. The capability to change servo speed is pretty
intriguing....not sure I have totally utilized it yet. The analog rate knob does enable
me to make changes during a race, at least in offshore where you can actually
use this fine tuning tool for an edge. The best thing for my forgetful mind is the
alarm that chimes when I leave the transmitter on. I am sure the other brands
will soon have these features too, but for now Spektrum DX4S is my radio of choice.
Ken
PS. I have no radio sponsorship

T.S.Davis
08-14-2013, 08:43 AM
Just waiting for you to haul in that New "Biggest, Badest" Racing trailer next year !


Did you have a chat with my wife? I got the green light to buy one too.

DPeterson
08-14-2013, 11:00 AM
Ken

Just waiting for you to haul in that New "Biggest, Badest" Racing trailer next year !
Maybe we will see it in Michigan ?
I am sure it will be amazing when you finally take the leap.
Terry

Did you have a chat with my wife? I got the green light to buy one too.

Thats good stuff Terry. Ken - I am planning on a nice one - but the bar you set will remain. :)

Just waiting for more sponsors. I got George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Alexander Hamilton, and Andrew Jackson on board. I working on lining up Ulysses S Grant, Benjamin Franklin, William McKinley and Grover Cleveland. LOL-Sponsors for toy boats.

Back to radios. My very first one was an Airtronics. Then for some reason went to Futaba and remained brand loyal. I still own all these 30 year old square box's.

Doug

T.S.Davis
08-14-2013, 12:35 PM
My Airtronics is from right around 1983. So for me to speak ill of Airtronics isn't really fair. The grip is my only experience with their newer stuff. I've simply not spent any time with their modern tech. It is a touch pricey but don't we always say you get what you pay for? Cheap radios are only cheap if they don't fail and blast your boat into shore. Then the price goes up. Of course they don't all do that. Probably most don't. Plenty of "works perfectly" claims. That's fine. I just can't get my head around trying to save money on the very most important piece of the puzzle. Like buying that Ferrari and then putting little doughnut spare tires on it to save money. They put you in the wall. Did you save money?

If I do a trailer it will be a multi-purpose utility trailer to get to and from. It wont be a fancy palace with air or satellite TV like that lunatic from Florida.:blink: Although based on that example, maybe an extinguishing system is in order. Just for means of egress. Best installation I'll hope to never use.

BILL OXIDEAN
08-15-2013, 11:13 AM
A lot of top drivers the world over run Airtronics in fact, THE fastest nitro SAW driver in the world runs it at Legg Lake Mark Grim and he's hitting over 120.
THE fastest car driver in the world raced for us up until this year Adam Drake. Ryan Cavalleri Races for us and he's a top 3 driver in the world.

Many of the top car drivers run Airtronics. I think one of the truest statements made on this thread is that you can't really go wrong with any radio these days. I see plenty of boat racers running Airtronics as well.
Airtronics has been selling radios long before I came along, so they don't need me to pitch radios on here. I don't need to convince a few people on here what the world already knows.
I could bash other radios as guys are doing Airtronics, but any outsider can look at this thread and see through it.

As the ad says "Airtronics get the advantage!" I don't know about you, but I'M gonna' keep getting the advantage :biggrin:

raptor347
08-15-2013, 12:38 PM
Mark still runs his old Airtronics radios from the days when he was sponsored. All the new stuff he's paid for is Futaba. Just keeping the record strait:wink:.

Like I said, it's hard to buy a bad radio these days. I was sponsored by Airtronics for years and had very few problems.

If you're in this hobby long enough, you end up trying just about everything.

I started flying with an EK single stick 5 channel. My first surface radio was a brown box Futaba with a wheel.

Good equipment tends to sell itself.

T.S.Davis
08-15-2013, 02:16 PM
.
I could bash other radios as guys are doing Airtronics, but any outsider can look at this thread and see through it.


Yes, fortunately guys on this forum are pretty bright and can see through BS.

NativePaul
08-15-2013, 04:59 PM
Radios were one thing I was looking at at the worlds and I couldn't help noticing the diversity of radios in the very large and professional Chinese team, there were new radios, old 2.4ghz converted 40mhz radios, stick radios, wheel radios, air radios, surface radios, high end radios and low end radios but they did have one thing in common, all were running Futaba FASST in one form or another. That is a good enditement to my mind.

BILL OXIDEAN
08-15-2013, 11:15 PM
Yes, fortunately guys on this forum are pretty bright and can see through BS.

I think most of the guys on this forum see you contradicting my every post : )
Go enjoy something in your life. Its obvious my enthusiasm in this sport peturbs you. Im sorry you feel so bitter inside
I truly hope things get better for you. Otherwise you can continue and prove me right..

Doug Smock
08-15-2013, 11:34 PM
Toy boats fellas. Please drive on with whichever radio you prefer.:wink:

Thanks in advance,

T.S.Davis
08-16-2013, 08:03 AM
Not sure this was bashing on Airtronics or contradiction so I read back through my posts.

I said "I didn't like the way the Airtonics fit in my hand". I even admitted that my choosing based on the grip might be weird. You said try the M12. So I asked if you had it in CO. I remember carrying it back to you pit area once at the 10 nats after a retrieval or something. It happens. I remembered the grip. Still not quite bashing.

I asked how much difference in latency. You said "I've noticed this lag in response to be close to a second in some cases" If you're turning 15 second laps a 1 second lag works out to about 58 ft. Holy crap! I've not experienced anything like that with my Speky but I've also not driven with Airtronics lower latency to compare. Airtonics uses their latency as a marketing tool. I just wanted to know what the difference was. If it is truly important their should be numbers somewhere that we can compare. Futaba, Spektrum, Airtronics, maybe a Flysky side by side. To say "we have the lowest" they need to know the others. This isn't bashing it's simply a quest for knowledge.

As for bashing I even said this about myself.
"My Airtronics is from right around 1983. So for me to speak ill of Airtronics isn't really fair. The grip is my only experience with their newer stuff. I've simply not spent any time with their modern tech. It is a touch pricey but don't we always say you get what you pay for?"

I simply am ignorant where Airtronics is concerned. I couldn't really find any Airtronics bashing. Your posts actually did make me look at them closer so mission accomplished I suppose. It appears that they may actually be the shizznit. Especially with the addition of the a marine rx. They have everything that I like about Spektrum and maybe the low latency you described. They are pricey but if it's truly better you can't put a number on that. Futaba guys don't worry about the numbers. They believe in the product and pay a bit more to get it.

I pointed out that people are smart enough to recognize BS when they read it. Not sure how that's a contradiction. At least there were no abject fabrications in this thread. That's positive change.

properchopper
08-16-2013, 01:31 PM
One specification I haven't heard addressed in this thread comes to mind (I found out about it while doing Helis -thanks to Wilmer:bash:} is something called GRANULARITY which, as I understand it, is the number of steps in the throttle channel (or other channel) pot. Turns out my el cheapo heli, in hover, would go UP or Down but there wasn't a throttle position that allowed an intermediate step between these two positions. Seems to me that more granularity in a radio's throttle channel would give more sensitive speed monitoring. No mention of this in radio specs. Thoughts ?

Doug Smock
08-16-2013, 01:51 PM
My throttles have two positions Tony. ON and OFF.:laugh:

That's what I like about the Spektrum. I can pull the trigger completely through the handle without damaging the radio. LOL

properchopper
08-16-2013, 01:57 PM
My throttles have two positions Tony. ON and OFF.:laugh:

Mine has three : ON, OFF, and OH SH*^ !

BILL OXIDEAN
08-16-2013, 02:29 PM
Mine has three : ON, OFF, and OH SH*^ !

I'm not gonna' lie Tony, in the last like season and a half, you've REALLY gotten to know your stuff.
Before you used to talk about intermediate stuff, but now you bring up points that most overlook. Literally making lightbulbs pop up.
Great point about the throttle steps.

properchopper
08-16-2013, 02:38 PM
I'm not gonna' lie Tony, in the last like season and a half, you've REALLY gotten to know your stuff.
Before you used to talk about intermediate stuff, but now you bring up points that most overlook. Literally making lightbulbs pop up.
Great point about the throttle steps.

Thanks Bro [blush]. If you remember, it was you that got me into helis, which led to my awareness of the granularity issue, which now leads back to this topic.

grsboats
08-16-2013, 05:01 PM
Mine has three : ON, OFF, and OH SH*^ ! ....man you make me laugh....thanks... I'd forgotten this third part ..ehe!h...The true is that i'm also getting old and fast responses to my reactions could be a great improvement in my radio. Gill

raptor347
08-16-2013, 07:07 PM
The number if input steps from the stick (or trigger, wheel etc) is one of the components of good control setup. Good resolution also require the mechanical assembly and geometry are up to the capability of the electronic link.

Flying Scotsman
08-17-2013, 03:08 PM
Woops..made a mistake in editing, what follows is correct

Flying Scotsman
08-17-2013, 04:38 PM
Wilmer, you are a beauty!.....at 65 years old my reactions are slow and I am lucky to get my boat back in one piece after one pass, but it is FUN.....By the way I use Spektrum as stated in a previous post on this thread and it suits my needs, as I tend to flip a lot(crappy driver) and waterproof means a lot to me.

Douggie

Fast Guy
08-17-2013, 04:48 PM
I have a Futaba 4PL, a flashed FlySky GT3B and a Tactic that came with my UL1. The FlySky has the best range by a small margin and after being flashed to the latest firmware has the most features. I like to think the Futaba is better since I paid a lot more for it but most of my models have found their way to the FlySky because of the $7:50 receivers.

T.S.Davis
08-18-2013, 12:08 AM
Well, I thought the latency question would get answered but it didn't.

So I did some digging. Best I can tell the Airtronics is indeed at least 5 times faster than the Spektrum. 1 millisecond versus 5.5 milliseconds. The grip on the M12 does look more appealing too.

What does that 4.5milliseconds mean though? Couldn't get my thick head around it so I did some math. Math is fun.

Imagine a boat traveling down the back straight at say 50mph.......

At 50mph you are covering water at 73.33333333333333 feet per second. The 4.5 millisecond difference translates to .0045 seconds

.0045 * 73.33333333333333 = .3299ft or 3.9588 inches. So at 50mpg your boat can travel an additional 4" before it responds to your input by using the Spektrum.

It's faster. 5 time faster. I think at least. They also have marine RX's now. I guess each of us has to decide if the difference is significant enough.

I couldn't find the data for Futaba. It has to be right in there somewhere. 2" difference? IDK

I might be better off spending the extra dough on some nice polarized sunglasses.

siberianhusky
08-18-2013, 07:50 AM
http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/what_is_latency.shtml

interesting reading about latency, seems there is much more to it than a simple number according to this article. This guy takes it right down to the latency in the servo as well as how settings on the TX can effect it.
That Airtronics is a great radio BUT I believe there is some good hype going on there, lets say overall you can save 20ms in latency, takes 100-150 ms to blink, would take an exceptional human being to notice 20ms between seeing your boat do something, deciding on an action, performing that action and finally having the boat react...
Ya if I won the lottery I'd buy it, damn good radio, do I believe for a second that I would notice the difference, nope....LOL Usain Bolt has a reaction time of .15s

Cooper
08-18-2013, 06:13 PM
I have a Futaba 4PL, a flashed FlySky GT3B and a Tactic that came with my UL1. The FlySky has the best range by a small margin and after being flashed to the latest firmware has the most features. I like to think the Futaba is better since I paid a lot more for it but most of my models have found their way to the FlySky because of the $7:50 receivers.
I've been having some range issues with my dx3 spectrum, I have a flysky that I might swap out and see if range picks up. I am hopeing that it doesn't because the $250 radio vs $50 will kinda be bittersweet. I am seriously considering the futaba (for range) but don't know if the fass or fasst is better suited for me. I'm not in need of much options just fail safe for the throttle and range. Only reason I'm having issues is in some saw boat where I need to make some long passes.

T.S.Davis
08-18-2013, 07:52 PM
That reminds me. What's with the tiny wires every manufacturer uses on servos? Wouldn't "latency" be reduced by larger wires too? If time is the big deal why the tiny wires? IDK

They seem to all have different talking points to help move product. Each with their own view on what's important and what the difference maker is.

I noticed Futaba claims faster antenna switching. Supposed to be less potential loss of signal. They also claim 2x less minimum latency. Who knows what the heck that means.

The Spektrum claims to have a resolution of 4096. I think that's the granularity Tony mentioned. Couldn't find it on the other two. Speky also mentions the ergonomics.

Airtronics is keying on the latency it seems.

I would like to think customer service would be similar with the big 3. Although in truth I would prefer to just have a product that doesn't need service.

properchopper
08-18-2013, 08:47 PM
Because I am uniquely unqualified to enter this discussion in any meaningful way (see points #1 and #2 below), just ignore what I'm about to say.

I think that this is all just a case of spec's one-upmanship. It leaves out the important issue of human adaptability. We all do it whether we are aware of it or not. Case in point : My old pick'em up had lots of play in the old steering box. I adapted and never noticed it or had a problem in the eight years of ownership. One time I loaned it to a Club Brother on a bike run. He drove it from Reno to Grass Valley and bitched about the loose steering upon arrival. He obviously hadn't adapted like I had. If your race car understeers you compensate and turn in sooner. I believe a certain Mr. B, who races 200mph pylon planes knows that you turn the controls well in advance of the next turn. We adapt.

All this spec comparison talk reminds me of my days in the sound reinforcement biz years ago. As tubes became transistors, claims of lower and lower THD became big selling points. An amplifier with .05% THD was supposed to be superior to one with .10 THD. Thing is, psychoacoustically, the human auditory mechanism can't discern differences in THD below 2.0% . What this means that you CAN'T HEAR the distortion in the .05% THD amp LESS than you CAN'T HEAR the distortion in the 1.0% amp.

I can't imagine that a better spec'd radio will make me a better racer, no matter how much I spend. The key point that Brian brought up (and to me is CRITICAL) is how well each link in the control chain is integrated : To quote Brian : "I find most problems are installation related, attention to detail during the build cuts down on the frustration after the build." A killer radio won't help bad geometry in the boat, at least in channel 1.

Two reasons why I have no dog in this fight :

#1 - As an example of why a quicker radio won't do me any good : To exemplify my typical focus/reaction time, at the 2008 Nat's in Minden with Darin pitting for me, at the start of a P-Mono heat I just drove straight off the course and into the safety net at the end of turn 1 pretty much forgetting to turn.

#2 - Two years ago, without the financial resources to outfit seven class entries with $89.95 Rx's I sold two of them from my Futaba, bought THAT RADIO (you know which one) and seven Rx's, a lipo Tx pack and had enough $$ left over to feed my cheeseburger addiction. At the SAWS I can rest my radio on my belly and run my boat to the far end of the course so far as to not tell which direction the boats pointing all the while enduring the semi-benevolent skepticism of the high-dollar radio boys who stand on the picnic bench or run up and down the bank, radio held high overhead as if they're flying some kind of invisible kite.

I know, I know. I'll shut up :wink:

Cooper
08-18-2013, 09:18 PM
Some good info tony, well said in my opinion. The only thing I'm really interested in any radio is some sort of fail safe (if signal or something lost that it wouldn't go into full throttle. ) and range for long passes for saw. I think all of them have end point adjust, trim, and a soft cushy wheel. And I do like a radio with more than ten model memory. Hopefully I get my cat together tomorrow and put the $6 rx in to see if it has more range.
I know not all is created equal but I'm a rather simple fellow but if a pricey tx system performs then I justify the expense but if not then I surely can use the money saved towards another build.

properchopper
08-18-2013, 09:29 PM
My cheeseburger-friendly (CF) radio has a fail-safe that shuts down the throttle channel when signal is lost. The only time I had a runaway was with my Futaba when the co-axial antenna broke inside the antenna tube/mast and wasn't visible where it broke.

The CF radio can be flashed to extend model memory. Tons of info on RCU.

BTW I ONLY use internal antennas with the CF radio.







Some good info tony, well said in my opinion. The only thing I'm really interested in any radio is some sort of fail safe (if signal or something lost that it wouldn't go into full throttle. ) and range for long passes for saw. I think all of them have end point adjust, trim, and a soft cushy wheel. And I do like a radio with more than ten model memory. Hopefully I get my cat together tomorrow and put the $6 rx in to see if it has more range.
I know not all is created equal but I'm a rather simple fellow but if a pricey tx system performs then I justify the expense but if not then I surely can use the money saved towards another build.

Cooper
08-18-2013, 09:32 PM
Flysky?

properchopper
08-18-2013, 09:34 PM
Flysky?

:thumbup1:

Fast Guy
08-18-2013, 09:41 PM
One thing I like about the FlySky. It has a settable fail safe at the receiver for the throttle channel. It works very well. If you do manage to run far enough to go out of range the boat just stops and sits there. I have tried turning the transmitter off while running (not a good idea I know) and the boat just coasts to a stop. The instant you turn the transmitter back on the link is reestablished and away you go. For the price it's hard to find fault.

Heaving Earth
08-18-2013, 09:46 PM
Fly sky here to.

Cooper
08-18-2013, 09:54 PM
I know it's off subject from op, but have you guys seen the new one with the fancy touch screen? I'm a sucker for the unnecessary fancy frill stuff :)

T.S.Davis
08-18-2013, 10:20 PM
Tony, you've really hit the nail on the head for this thread..It's what I was eluding too when I showed the math. It's all about the build with boats.

All these companies use a particular spec to claim that their offering is the best. Spec x,y,z (pick your favorite) isn't going to make you a winner. The differences from one to the next are less than microscopic. All of them virtually undetectable by humans.

Turn 200 plus laps with a given hull. Twist it, tweak it, find that loose coupler, get the alignment on your shaft absolutely perfect and smooth as hot butter. Work on the bottom until it looks precision lapped. These will serve us much better than hand wringing over which radio has highest resolution, the fastest antenna switching, or the lowest latency. Find one that's reliable and you're comfortable with. Even the Tactic radios are reliable, predictable, and rock solid. More than that is just pampering yourself. No harm in doing that. Just don't lose sleep over it.

All that said, I may spoil myself and get the Airtronics next time I'm ready to invest. haha I like the feature list and they have a marine RX to go with the package. Pretty big drop of coin for a whole fleet though. Have to stew on that one a while. Maybe next season.