HPR C5009 - 3 day build !!!

[ManuelW]

Hello Guys,

today I want to present you the review of a HPR C5009 which I built two weeks ago. And it was quite a special project, something that I didn't do before. So I hope you enjoy it.

HPR C5009 - Bullet Proof

The build was a HPR C5009, the owner is my friend Chris, a new member in our club "VTE - Marine - Racing". He doesn't have much spare time at the moment and it also was his first twin powered cat ever. So he came up to me and asked me for help either with experience or maybe even with the total build. And thats what I did for him.
So he brought me the brand new untouched hull on friday along with a medium sized parcel containing almost all necessary parts needed for the build. This was important as for a fast build you can't await to order parts and having them shipped.

Aim of the build was to build it above average in time and make it ready for its maiden.

So here the introduction:

hull

As said the hull is a HPR C5009 from Hanspeter with a length of 45" or 115cm. Its the "Bullet-Proof" version so the one with the best/highest strength officially offered on his website. Bare weight of the hull was just an amazing 2150g so Hanspeter gave his best again. Except two very little airbubbles in the GelCoat the finish was superior, technically without any issues at all.
The seam is also very well made, in the rear area double layer of GFK seam tape with 225g/m², side walls are reinforced all the way to the tips with a full layer of 245g/m² carbon weave. The tips themselves are filled generously with thickened resin as well as the seam between the tips. Adds some weight but it was carefully done and therefore definitely reasonable.
The cowl is as well a bullet-proof one so no chance for a GPS, even a Holux. But no matter, then it will be taped outside. Just don't forget a little piece of flotation.

Here some pictures:
http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_100.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_101.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_102.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_103.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_104.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_105.JPG

[ManuelW]

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_106.JPG

setup

motors:
2x TP 4050 (40x83mm) with 2350kv, big water jackets by MBP-RC, 40mm rear support brackets made myself (not on the photo). Sadly the motor cables are quite long but as its coated copper wire I simply can't just shorten them. The collet clutches are the SZK-type also by MBP-RC. These are really excellent stuff for 5mm motor shaft and 3/16" flex shaft.

ESC:
2x Turnigy 180A, recent version with additional caps on a PCB. These were cut off immediately and were replaced by two 1000µF low-ESR caps which were directly soldered to the PCB of the ESC. Beside this a few other minor mods have been done to the ESC's.

Hardware:
Drives and Rudder are original HPR; the hydraulics are from MBP-RC.

lipos:
2x 6S 5000 40C and 2x 6S 5000 45C from Hobbyking

servo:
Fitec standard size servo with carbon fibre mount. Didn't like that one at all. Was immediately replaced by a nice low profile servo and the original HPR low profile servo mount.

lipo mount:
Lipo mount system by a member of the german forum named Isomar.

miscellaneous:
Emergency cut-off system by Emcotec with a magnet switch and LED (very cool!), 4.75mm flex shafts by H&M with H&M prop shafts (were replaced with HPR prop shafts), 2S Lipo as receiver battery with an U-BEC System. And the rest of the small parts needed for a build eg water in/outlets, shrink tube, 6mm bullets, silicon wire,...

pics:
http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_107.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_108.JPG

So that was the introduction of the build!

[ManuelW]

Over the week-end I was busy with other things so no time to start the build. Real start was monday morning. Quite exactly on 10am I drilled the 1st hole in the untouched hull.

Status Monday lunchtime

Did quite some work on monday morning, mainly different bores for the drives including a lot of measuring and alignment of the parts. For the water intakes I already prepared two pieces of bent 4mm brass tube, marked the holes on the hull and drilled them with a 4.1mm bore. The bores for the stuffing tubes were already made. One was almost perfect as I'm used to. Sadly for the other one the drill bit moved a little so it had a very minor oval shape. But as it is laminated from inside anyway it doesn't matter.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_109.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_110.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_111.JPG

Meanwhile I had already a few parts baking in the oven. These were parts of the drives where I glued in the last flange bearing as well as the set of flex shafts. For these I glued the HPR prop shaft on the free end of the flex. As for sure first everything was degreased using brake disk cleaner and then glued using Loctite 648.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_112.JPG

Motor mounts

Hanspeter does already offer very nice CNC machined motor mounts from 3mm CF sheet. But I wanted to make my own ones as I wanted some minor adjustments on the position of the motors. But I asked Hanspeter and he was so nice to draw the circumference of the mounts on a sheet of paper. So I cut them out but modded these a little. This was necessary as you can really see that the bullet proof hulls are thicker than the standard ones.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_113.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_114.JPG

[liteumup69]

Manuel, You have a PM

[ManuelW]

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_115.JPG

status monday evening

Monday afternoon I was quite busy with cutting out the motor mounts. First I just wanted to cut them out of 3mm CF sheet as regular. But then I kind of fell over some spare material I had left in my garage. It was a special sandwich sheet, around 7.5mm thick, thats almost 1/3", with a 4.5mm Nomex Honeycomb core and on each side a 1.5mm thick CF sheet (4 layers 370g/m² Atlas 1/4 weave). Christian knows the sheet, he always says its as stiff as a massive steel sheet of the same thickness, just without any weight.

Anyway I had enough material left so I marked the mounts and then cut them out using a solid carbide tool. For the optic freaks: Yes I know, the structure on each motor mount is not symmetrical, thats something only Chris would care about.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_116.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_117.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_118.JPG

The fine work was done using a tool with a K80 grit:

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_119.JPG

Next step was to mark both bore circles on the mounts (6x60° LK 25mm M3 and 3x120° LK 30mm M4) before I drilled these. The material is extremely hard to machined, therefore also the bores are a little frazzled. Better would be having these CNC machined.
A little critical was the combination of the thick motor mounts with the SZK collet clutches and their huge OD of 18mm. It really had to be a precise work but finally it came out good. Afterwards I made a test fit of both motors inside the hull:

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_122.JPG

[ManuelW]

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_120.JPG

As everything fitted nice I did lighten the mounts a little. This also enables room for wires and cooling lines. Afterwards the weight was just 42.3g for the set - not too bad.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_121.JPG

Next step was as usual, align them within the hull and mark the position. Then sand the surface, degrease it with brake disk cleaner and align the mounts again. I always use little drops of CY to fix them.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_123.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_124.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_125.JPG

Like I always do I used thickened resin and weave reinforments to laminate the mounts. For this motor size/weight and size of the mounts one layer of weave over the seam has to be enough. Color is simply back. I think it came out quite good.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_126.JPG

[ManuelW]

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_127.JPG

So that was the status on Monday Evening, tomorrow will follow Tuesday!

Have a nice evening!

regards,
Manuel

[srislash]

Cool,TP's in this one.Signing on.

[keithbradley]

Nice!
Have you used the Emotech cutoff before? I've considered them but I haven't been able to find much info about them.

[ManuelW]

@ Keith:
Sadly no use before and with the original Emcotec stuff we were NOT satisfied. Beside named in the shop usable for powerboats its NOT waterproof. German manufacturer MTL produces a water proof version featuring an aluminium ring with bolt circle which is glued with silicone to the top of the switch.

status Tuesday lunchtime

I spent the morning working on the driveline. First I removed and trimmed the weave around the motor mounts, to give them a nice look. Then I annealed the brass tubes for the stuffing tubes and gave them a smooth bend. As said a 3/16" flex shaft is used, next step was to cut it to the right length so they were ready for use.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_128.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_129.JPG

Very important for me was to make it as symmetric as possible on both sides. I was quite satisfied, not to tell from Chris the owner who was even more satiesfied. In some spare time I cut out two support brackets for the stuffing tubes out of 2mm dark black GFK sheet and filed/sanded them to the right shape. Also did some sanding work in the rear of the boat and then degreased everything. I did even sand the little nuts for the screws to ensure a good bond.
Afterwards first I aligned everything and then I fixed the parts using a few drops of CYA I used some 5min epoxy which was colored black and thickend to glue in the support brackets for the stuffing tube. For the rear including the water intakes I used some 20min epoxy, also black colored and thickened.

[ManuelW]

status tuesday evening

On tuesday afternoon I didn't have much progress as I had to go to the training & therapy. In the evening Chris gave me a visit to help and check the progress. So we cut the stuffing tubes to the right length at the transom and finally mounted the drives using aquarium silicone to seal them. Then we cut the teflon liners to the right length and screwed in the motors. It started to look like a boat or at least similar.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_130.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_131.JPG

As we had some time left we marked the screws for the rudder, then we sanded the tail part from inside, degreased it and filled it partly with thickened resin. When the resin was curing we did prepare the T180 ESC's which mean:
-shorten motor cables, soldered 6mm Nessel bullets and then used shrink tube
-shortened battery wires, soldered 6mm Nessel bullets/connectors and then used shrink tube
-additional stock caps desoldered (what did the Chinese think when they invented this?)
-added two 35V 1000µ Low-ESR caps for each ESC which were directly soldered to the controllers PCB, then shrinked them

Now I think the ESC's look fine. The cooling nipples also were a little too long, I modified them on Wednesday.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_132.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_133.JPG

So that was the work on Tuesday, then I gave my bed a little visit.

[ManuelW]

status wednesday lunchtime

The drive lines as well as drives and rudder were almost finished, just had to bore the holes for the rudder and then mounted the rudder and hydraulics. Next step was the Emcotec Switch. First I marked its position on the hull, then I drilled the holes for the switch and the antenna mount. As my friend Christian "the file" is a fan of precise bored holes I gave my best to get a real round bore - here is the proof:

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_137.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_138.JPG

When they are delivered they come with some stainless cross slotted screws but they looked horrible and I threw them away. Replaced them with some nice stainless M2 countersunk screws. Looks a lot better immediately.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_139.JPG

Another important point were rear support brackets for the motors. A few manufacturers already produce these for the 40mm can diameter motors but Chris didn't like these. So I had a pair of 40mm ones machined (wire erroded) in the style of the Lehner LMT support brackets out of 6mm aluminium sheet. They were also glas-blasted (is this the corect term?) and now have a clean look beside their very low weight.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_140.JPG

Next was to give them a test fit within the hull as it needed to be symmetric. Used some cardboard for an example to cut the same shape out of CF sheet.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_141.JPG

[ManuelW]

I used a 2.3mm strong high strength CF sheet for these and made some 5.5mm bores which I sanded bigger to the right fit. Then I pressed in some inserts with an M3 thread also using silicone. That should hold almost forever.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_142.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_143.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_144.JPG

To make these supports it always takes quite some time and effort, especially when it needs to be done precise. In the meantime MBP-RC has these parts ready to use in his shop. Just 2-3 days too late, otherwise I'd have used these.

[ManuelW]

status wednesday night 03:00am

As the aim was to build the boat as fast as possible I had hardly any time on Wednesday afternoon and evening to take many pictures. It was simply no time lift as taking nice pictures also takes some time and effort.

In the afternoon I shortened the cooling nippels on the ESC's and removed any edges. Now they come another 5mm closer. Tube is a 7x3mm and secured on both ends.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_145.JPG

Then I glued in the lipo mount system as well as the motor rear supports using some aquarium silicone and it came out pretty fine.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_147.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_148.JPG

When the silicone was still curing I laminated the low-profile servo mount from HPR using some resin and some glass weave. The little fringes I removed for sure later on. Such a low profile servo looks way better in that hull and also the bowden linkages to the rudder work better.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_149.JPG

The rest was just small work. One interesting point was the Turnigy UBec Chris had already soldered together using some BEC connectors. I made a test run but the U-Bec already needs a few ma current which is bad. So you can't let it be connected as it will empty the receiver battery.

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_150.JPG

Therefore I desoldered the connectors and cut a Y-connector to get some connectors. Now it was the following order:
2S receiver battery lipo --> emcotec switch --> U-BEC --> receiver
The soldering job was done around 10:00pm.

But this combination didn't make a good job in the test runs, the 2S receiver lipo was replaced with a 2S receiver LiFe and the U-BEC was completely removed. The Emcotec switch could stay was replaced with the water-proof version by MTL.

So at around 03:00am in the morning the boat was RTR and when i say RTR I mean RTR including:
-lipos shrinked to lipo sledges
-lipo mounts glued in
-ESC's programmed
-checked rotation direction of both motors, spinning inwards
-installed flex shafts using some grease and also filled the drive with grease
-installed complete cooling circuit with black cooling lines and secured all ends. Interesting fact is that I just needed a little less than 1m of cooling lines for the full boat. Which means the cooling circuit is short and therefore increased efficiency.
-made water intakes even with the running surface using sanding grit and milled some intake grooves.
-installed servo w. aluminium servo horn and all linkages
-installed receiver and connected everything
-installed hatch lock system with 4x M3 scews.

[ManuelW]

Here some pictures which were taken at 3am in the morning:
I was finished, in every meaing of that sentence
http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_134.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_135.JPG

http://www.mb-forum.at/baubericht_hpr_c5009_chris_136.JPG

[ManuelW]

maiden run

Maiden run of the boat was on saturday with really beautiful weather. On Thursday/Friday we did just really minor work like soldering antispark resistors or making a wooden boat stand. But Wednesday night it would have been already possible to make a test run.

Here a picture of Chris at the maiden of his new HPR C5009:
http://p7.p1x.de/user/full/97/73/61bc8b65-56415366.jpg

I set the boat up and adjustments of the drives/CG from my experience and knowledge with a set of Octura X442's. With these the boat performed already quite amazing with a top speed of 89mph. Beside this great performancy hardly any temperature from the components, especially the motors were almost cold although it had 35°C outside. Here a video of that run:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOimPJb1V_0&feature=relmfu

For the last try of the day I mounted a pair of X447 Andy Brown and mounted my Holux GPS on the outside of the hull. Chris had a great respect so he took the camera and I had to drive the boat for max. performance.

So everything was connected and checked before we taped the hull. I put the CG a little forward, didn't change something on the trims. But I really underestimate the 4-Pole TP motors with their low IR. They seem to have a really sharp throttle response in combination of the T180 ESC's. Timing was also just a mild 15°. But the acceleration simply was so high that the boat made a wheelie and flipped. I can definitely say it was not a flip due to high speed, also checked the complete log of th Holux on my notebook and top speed was just 79mph.

Here a video of that try:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mtSb3L8NhKA

So we simply couldn't stop with this result and go home. We rescued the boat and checked everything. Beside some little water which came through the linkages everything was fine. Boat was dried and the batteries charged while we put some grease into the linkages.

For the last try of the day I was again responsible for driving and Chris took the camera. Meanwhile I also moved the CG forward from experience to compensate the higher speeds. And this time it was almost perfect and I could really give WOT resulting in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvGXKdXRTvI&feature=relmfu

On the GPS it noted a straight 101mph (also checked that at home on my notebook, was 161.6km/h). So a 100mph run on its maiden running day, not too bad for the fast build and the really cheap components.

Now Chris is really happy with his new toy and enjoys running it:
http://www.mb-forum.at/vte_marine_racing_2012_145

Have a nice day,
Manuel


Demnächst gibts dann weitere Fahrberichte und Ergebnisse!

mfg Manuel

[Prop-a-Gator]

Wow! This is definitely a build for the instant gratification generation! I could barely keep up just reading the posts. :)
Thanks for another great build thread - and with "budget" components. Impressive results too.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

[alhaddad]

Great work ......... Manuel

[scottw]

Another Great Build Manuel!!!

You have just proven that the guys at TP are on a winner with there Motors!!!
They would be happy to see your videos!!!

regards
Scott

[Grazacind]

Well that has just confirmed my plans to build a twin TP4092/2200 rigger on 6s. I have 2 FC 8s 300a esc's for it. I can wait after seeing that.

Great build Manuel.

[keithbradley]

Great work!
I wouldn't consider 15 degrees "mild" timing on those motors...aren't they 4 pole D wind motors?

[ManuelW]

Yes, these are 4-Pole motors but I'm not sure if either a 5.5D or a 3Y. But I drive my 2-pole LMTs with air gap winding already with 15° timing so the 15° for this 4-Pole motor might not be mild but still average. Want to do further test with increasing the timing to 18° and when that improves performance final tests with 22.50°.

regards,
Manuel

[keithbradley]

I think the 2350kv is a 7D wind. Are they 40x74mm?

I'm not sure if you have tried lower timing or if 15 degrees is the only setting you have tested, but it might be worth it to try lower settings as well. I'm running my D wind motors at only 3 degrees in a similar speed setup with good results. I have found that when turning some of these high kv 4 pole motors at high RPM, sometimes the max RPM will drop with a higher timing setting, as if the the ESC starts to stuggle to keep up. The same phenomenon has been even more noticable with 6 pole inrunners. Lowering timing can somewhat correct the issue.

You obviously have a great running boat, I just thought I would share my experiences. If you try higher timing and it slows or runs hotter, you could try less and see what happens. :thumbup1:

[ManuelW]

Hello Keith,

well no problem, its not that I know everything so I always like when people share their opinion.
And the 4050 is 40x82mm and so I think it either is a 5.5D or a 3Y. So far 15° is the only tested setting. But last Sunday we wanted to make some further testing, sadly the flex shaft failed.
So now she is in my garage again to get an upgrade to 5mm flex shafts and maybe a new coupler system. But I'll update the review here for sure!

regards,
manuel

[KillerDave]

Fantasic work Manuel... This is my kind of build, You might see my build soon :thumbup1: I sould be ordering my HPR in a few weeks.... I WANT IT NOW!!!! Anyway, I have some questions and but I will leave it for a PM as I don't want to go off topic.
Again, Great work...

Best regards,

David.

[graill]

Nice speed build Manuel, great results. :biggrin:

[MarkF]

Hi Manuel, I have tested the TP motors and I found the shrink on the motor wires is very week and I burned a motor from the wire rubbing on the end bell. I sugest you add some good shrink to your motor wires especially were they exit the end bell and then zip tie them so they can't move. I too think 15 degrees is way to high. My 100 mph runs were at the lowest possible setting. These boats are already very fast and extra timming is asking for it. I would only consider moving the timing up if I was going for a record and was only a few mph off.
Mark

[Chrisg81983]

Once again very nice Manuel.....damn 3 days it took me that long to do the 6 hatch bolts on mine lol

[ManuelW]

Hi Guys,

after some time it needs some updates in this topic:

@ MarkF: Jep I've seen that problem already but maybe TP have improved as the motors from Chris were quite "full" till the endbells but the motor wires had quite some shrink tube on them and came perfectly centered through the bore in the rear endbell. What worries me more, the threads for the front endbell were not really carefully machined and two of the screws got loose. For the timing we did not do further tests so far.

Sadly there won't be any further high speed attempts as my friend Chris lost interest and wants to make a show boat out of it. So from now on biggest prop used will be a set of X442's with speeds in the 90mph range.

Here a nice video of the boat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXRr-CGvtPM&feature=plcp

Seems as I need to build another boat with the same setup for me to do some further testing as I'd be really interested to check what this setup is capable of. :frusty:

regards,
Manuel

[KillerDave]

Hi Manuel,
Can I ask what fixings you use on the hatch? I have tried to find them but don't know the name???

[ManuelW]

Hi Dave,

I use parts from Graupner Modellbau, they are called "Anschraubmuttern". The guy I've seen using them first was mudl, the idea is simply but good!

http://www.graupner.de/en/products/ec6899f5-37b7-4bf0-a640-a36d4e072919/725.3/product.aspx

By the way the boat was sold already a few months ago to my friend Marko (he won the 2012 SAW event in Duisburg) and he seems to be very very happy with the boat and runs it frequently also with X447's. :rockon2:

Maybe I'll try to do a 2-day HPR06 or C5009 build this year?

regards,
Manuel

[KillerDave]

Thanks for the link.
Can't wait to get my hands on it now!!!! :y

[ManuelW]

Hello Guys,

some news from that boat. It was sold more than half a year ago to a very good friend of mine - Marko Hoffmann, the guy who won last years german SAW event at the Regattabahn. The setup and configuration is basically untouched, he just invested serious time and effort in optic and details, the result is gorgeous.
But what I do like, he still runs it at max. performance, yesterday we both attended the powerboat meeting in Edderitz were we tested some props out of my box, this was the best heat:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKP52b4mBe8

There is more to go, today I ordered a new custom made set of props and Marko may care about new batteries. More pictures of the boat will follow soon.

regards,
Manuel

[MarkF]

Hey Manuel,
I know a place where you can get some batteries that hold the highest voltage under load.

Mark

[ManuelW]

Hi Mark,

if I decide to start SAW racing again I'll definitely consider to get some batteries from you!

At the moment here the latest video from Marko and the HPR C5009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6m1Axi0rdc

New props from Andy Brown (this time higher pitch and new tweaks) are already shipped, soon more testing will be done :buttrock:

regards,
Manuel

[MarkF]

That looks good Manuel. A good prop that I like is the 5018 3 blade from fightercat.

Mark