LiPo Sack Question

[bigwaveohs]

Does the Velcro burn so snaps are better?

"Just so you know.. we have found HUGE advantages to snaps over Velcro when it comes to lipo sacks."
Grim

[DPeterson]

Save your money - skip this lipo sack crap.

You guy's that are using lipo sacks - How are you monitoring your cells during charge? Are you continually opening the sack and putting your face close to the opening to visually monitor? That would be the only method I can think of unless the lipo sacks are see through. Man O man!

We need some well thought out safe lipo handling and charging procedures spelled out and soon.

So far here is where I am at: Leave the cells in the boat - the boat offers at a minumum a containment vessel to hold the fire suppresent powder, will hold water if you so chose to throw water in it, and will work well under a fire retardent blanket. Furthermore the cells are not designed for repetitive handling - why are guy's tugging away on them constantly - damaged cells are the problem cells. The boat (containment vessel) also offers a means for which to handle or remove the cells from the area that may effect other equipment or people.

All pit areas must be supplied with Fire extinguishers of the sufficient size and type, and or buckets of sand, and or fire retardent blankets, and or buckets of water for the brave ones.

Damaged cells for any reason must be removed from the area and contained in a fire proof vessel for disposal later.

All charger cables must be covered all the way to the tip with non-conductive material - no open charge cable ends allowed.

All charging will require balancing features and must be utilized.

No unattended charging. Not sure how this works at a race. We all have to pit for racers.

Fire away - no pun intended.

Doug

[bigwaveohs]

Interesting...the very first rule in the recent AMA Alert (http://www.towerhobbies.com/help/ama_lipo/index.html) regarding charging guidelines for LiPos says:

1. Store, and charge, in a fireproof container; never in your model.

And please, no railing on the messenger...I'm just posting what the AMA is recommending...

BTW, The only type of Fire Extinguisher that will work on LiPo Fires is the new Class D (Yellow) Extinguisher. The problem is they are vary expensive. They average around $400.00 each.

You can use an ABC class to keep the fire from spreading but they won't have any effect on the LiPo fire.

[DPeterson]

I am aware but remain in disagreement. IMO - this fire proof containment requirement comes for the manufacturer for liability reasons. It does not justify that this is the safest procedure.

AMA as well as other organizations contradict themselves. They suggest to charge in a fire proof container and then say you must also monitor the cells. I find it difficult to do both in a safe manner.

[LuckyDuc]

Most boat hulls are made of the same material as the lipo sacks. Fiberglass cloth. I don't see why charging the packs in the boat is any more dangerous than charging outside in a sack. It is easier to grab a boat with a burning lipo in it than a burning lipo sack(In the event that the fire needs to be moved)

I'll post a pic of a damaged lipo wire that resulted from the constant removal and insertion for charging purposes.

[Grimracer]

Doug,

Our chargers are fully capable of monitoring the pack/s. Why would one need to open the sack during charging?
Regardless of safety, I really don’t see any "REAL" reason to lose a boat to fire when it CAN be avoided.
We store, transfer, carry, use WAY more lipos then all of the members on OSE combined and a fire be it in the plane, heli, boat or whatever is never taken lightly.
Besides the bad things that lipos are capable of come as no surprise when we are “using them” its when we are not using them that “things” come as a surprise.

Everybody.. just use your head and be safe!

Grim

[bigwaveohs]

My boat costs a lot more than my LiPo sack...and all I really wanted to know was why Grim preferred snaps to Velcro.

[LuckyDuc]

My boat costs a lot more than my LiPo sack...
The point that Doug is trying to make with charging in the boat is that the lipos get damaged as a result of constantly taking them in and out of the boat to charge. I have to pull on the leads in some of my hulls to remove the packs. This damages the pack over time.

[DPeterson]

My charger doesn't detect lipo temperature, lipo puffing or a potential wire short. Time for an updated charger. :)

[Doug Smock]

FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURES RECOMMENDATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll leave the "charging in the boat" alone, FOR NOW.:olleyes:

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

Does anyone know what the AMA's requirement is based on? Doug's point is valid too. Isn't it when we assume all our equipment is working flawlessly that accidents happen? If your charger wigs out and your cells are inside a fire "proof" container you don't know they've gone all blood sausage until they burst.

I have to make a special tool to get the cells out of some of my boats. Think shoe horn. It's a nightmare. It will wreck the cells if I do it multiple times. Basically I'm scraping a flat edge across the bottom surface of the cells. Not all my boats are like that though. If the cells come out without too much trouble I pull them.

I understand not wanting to lose a boat. Maybe the AMA figures you would be charging inside a plane with a 7' wing span and you can't relocate it easily. Boats are a little different IMO.

If taking the cells out of my boat in my opinion (who better I built it) is going to damage my cells I can't see following the recommendation. Damaged cells because I followed the recommended practice?

The bag is for containment. They're not a waist of time. Just not sure they're THE answer like some think they are. I wonder how they hold up to a 10s pack. I like that fire blanket idea. Just in case sort of thing. Remove a burn (somehow?) and toss the blanket over it.

Mike, what do you think made the snaps better? Think I missed it. Stay closed better?

Doug, I need your email address. PM or whatever.

[DPeterson]

Very sorry for highjack bigwaveohs.

I have a back ground in risk management and loss control and am really struggling with so called safety rules that are a little more than a feel good procedure.

I hope you get your original question answered and maybe on the side we can hash out some safe procedures that are actually intended for their purpose.

Terry - I PM'd my e-mail to you.

Doug

[Grimracer]

we did a bunch of testing.. i wish I could find the videos..

Anyway.. with snaps one has a tendency to lay the bag with the snaps up. when and if a fire happens the flames shoot out over the top of the bag and not the sides (like a Velcro one).

We tested this with a large cardboard section under the bag.. when using a velcro sack the cardboard started on fire.. with snaps it did not..

We also found that the snaps did not lit go even in high heat or under large pressures. I have seen a 4S 4200 go up and the pressure of/from the fire is DAM SCARY! (like a blow torch).. nukes whatevers in the flames path.

We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing.. We quick closed the ammo box it was in and it sealed the box so hard (vacuum) we could not get it back open..

Anyway.. I will state again.. use your head and just be safe..

BTY.. I have a buddy that put chimney liners on their side and against a block wall in his basement.. Based on what I have seen this is about as good a system as you can get for "in house" charging and storage.


Grim

[Doug Smock]

Sorry for the hijack also.
Lots of good reading here so you guys know what you'll be exposing your friends and family to when your boats burn.
http://www.plasticmaterials.net/msds/msds_plastic_materials.html

As if the burning LiPos aren't bad enough!
So much for feel good.:huh:

Doug

[Doug Smock]

we did a bunch of testing.. i wish I could find the videos..

Anyway.. with snaps one has a tendency to lay the bag with the snaps up. when and if a fire happens the flames shoot out over the top of the bag and not the sides (like a Velcro one).

We tested this with a large cardboard section under the bag.. when using a velcro sack the cardboard started on fire.. with snaps it did not..

We also found that the snaps did not lit go even in high heat or under large pressures. I have seen a 4S 4200 go up and the pressure of/from the fire is DAM SCARY! (like a blow torch).. nukes whatevers in the flames path.

We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing.. We quick closed the ammo box it was in and it sealed the box so hard (vacuum) we could not get it back open..

Anyway.. I will state again.. use your head and just be safe..

BTY.. I have a buddy that put chimney liners on their side and against a block wall in his basement.. Based on what I have seen this is about as good a system as you can get for "in house" charging and storage.


Grim

Mike,
Post us up a MSDS sheet on your LiPo sack please sir.
Have a great weekend fellas!
Thanks,
Doug

[DPeterson]

Maybe if we put the lipo sack into another larger lipo sack and then into another larger lipo sack yet and then into maybe a very larger metal container we will finally have control of the flames and the pressure.

Grim wrote;
We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing..

There's a project for ya Doug S. 100's of nitro and gas racers charging their lipo receiver packs in their boats. All the while in the presence of other flammable fluids.

You have a great Weekend also.

Doug

[Grimracer]

Doug,

Im not IN ANY WAY imposing that people MUST use a safe charge container.. Just providing what we have proof of.

Doug S.. will do when I get the chance

Again.. just use your head and be safe.

BTY.. I store my Lipos in my trailer. Not in the house. If they do the nasty its in my large safe storage container!

Grim

[bigwaveohs]

we did a bunch of testing.. i wish I could find the videos..

Anyway.. with snaps one has a tendency to lay the bag with the snaps up. when and if a fire happens the flames shoot out over the top of the bag and not the sides (like a Velcro one).

We tested this with a large cardboard section under the bag.. when using a velcro sack the cardboard started on fire.. with snaps it did not..

We also found that the snaps did not lit go even in high heat or under large pressures. I have seen a 4S 4200 go up and the pressure of/from the fire is DAM SCARY! (like a blow torch).. nukes whatevers in the flames path.

We had a 300mah pack go up one time.. WOW.. that little sucker was NASTY doing its thing.. We quick closed the ammo box it was in and it sealed the box so hard (vacuum) we could not get it back open..

Anyway.. I will state again.. use your head and just be safe..

BTY.. I have a buddy that put chimney liners on their side and against a block wall in his basement.. Based on what I have seen this is about as good a system as you can get for "in house" charging and storage.


Grim

Thank you Grim....

[JIM MARCUM]

Great discussion and information here. So..........................

Is there a MSDS sheet on any major brand LIPO?

Is there info available on the toxicity of inhailing that nasty LIPO smoke?

Is there info available on how hazardous the liquid residue and other reminants are?

And, what is the correct way to dispose of a fried LIPO corpse?

JIM:spy:

[Doug Smock]

There's a project for ya Doug S. 100's of nitro and gas racers charging their lipo receiver packs in their boats. All the while in the presence of other flammable fluids.

You have a great Weekend also.

Doug

Doug I run a business, have a family, a home, hold two positions on the BOD, and work as hard as anyone at the local level. I think I'm doing my fair share for model boating. If you have an issue with the Gas and Nitro guys charging their RX batteries in their boats, there is a procedure you can follow to bring it before the BOD.

All of these folks can guide you.

National Large Scale Gas Director
Chris Rupley
D2@imbpa.net

National Nitro Director
Don Ferrette
D12@impba.net

National Safety Director
Bill Zuber
bzubee@gmail.com

District 4 Director
Paul Bychowski
847-593-7769
D4@impba.net


Thank you sir,
Doug S. :tiphat:

[DPeterson]

Doug

I am not the one having a hussy about charging Batteries in the boat. You are. And you have already alerted the IMPBA brass many times already. No need for me to do it again.

The rules can tell me to jump off a cliff too - guess what I won't do that either.

[Doug Smock]

Doug

I am not the one having a hussy about charging Batteries in the boat. You are. And you have already alerted the IMPBA brass many times already. No need for me to do it again.

The rules can tell me to jump off a cliff too - guess what I won't do that either.

This is the last time I'm going to tell you this Mr. Peterson. My first attempt was to deal with you personally. It's my job as a board member, just as it is yours as a District FE Director.
Your arrogance sent me down the other path, and has me on my current path. Congratulations!!!!

It is really very simple.
If you are going to participate in IMPBA events you are required to follow the rules. You don't have the choice to only follow the rules that suit YOU! It's not an option!
Nor do you have the right to put the IMPBA and it's membership at risk because you choose not to follow the rules. It's as simple as that, the site looses it's insurance if the rules aren't followed. Don't believe me? Ask one of the guys on the list above.

Like I said above. If you don't like the rules (or the lack there of) follow the procedure to try to get them changed, added, whatever.
If you don't like the rules, and you wish not to follow them, do the IMPBA and it's membership a favor and don't participate in IMPBA sanctioned events.

Don't bother with a reply, I am again, busy with the IMPBA brass. There is a fly in the ointment.:wink:

All done here fellas, see ya at the pond.:beerchug:(after the race) lol
Be safe while handling your batteries!
Doug S.

[detox]

I am impressed. Doug, Are you drinking.


...

[DPeterson]

Here is some friendly advice Doug, believe it or not. If you and the Brass are going to go around and promote the extra handling of these lipos so they can be shoved into a lipo bag (that really does not contain the flames anyway) and then ask members to continually monitor the charging ( sticking your face into the front of the lipo bag ) - I would suggest you all get a $1,000,000.00 Umbrella Insurance Policy.

The IMPBA and NAMBA Insurance is all secondary. Your personal insurance comes into play first. $1,000,000.00 Umbrella is not that expensive.

But when the unsuspecting smuck that loses a hand or face pissing around with these lipo bags, look out!

OH - and calm down. This is just a healthy discussion.

[Doug Smock]

I'm not fired up Doug. I'm not in D4.LOL:wink:

As you may know, the membership decides what the rules are. The Board of Directors promote the organization and the rules that govern it.

The Lipo sack argument is weak at best IMO. I could say the same thing about your mono that has the cells strapped to the rails and a ESC on top of them. How can you see what condition they are in? Show me a manufacturer that says it's ok to store, transport, and charge LiPos in a model?

Regardless what WE think, the rules are the rules and must be followed until such a time they are changed.
There is no point in going back and forth with this. You know what to do if you want to attempt to change the rule.
Good night sir,
Doug S.

[Doug Smock]

I am impressed. Doug, Are you drinking.


...
LOL Keith, which Doug?
I rarely drink and when I do it's just a beer with some boat buds.
Don't do the cheese and whine thing either LOL
D.

[detox]

I only know of one Duhg. I mean Doug :thumbup1:

[don ferrette]

There's a project for ya Doug S. 100's of nitro and gas racers charging their lipo receiver packs in their boats. All the while in the presence of other flammable fluids.
Really?

Hmmm, I've racing gas and nitro for a long time and in the last couple seasons FE as well and have yet to see a receiver pack start a fire. 100's charging LiPo RX packs?? The vast majority of gas and nitro racers making the switch from NiCad or NiMh (and MOST are still using the former two) are using LiFe packs for the RX's as the LiPo voltage is too high. And lastly unlike Lipos, the lithium iron phosphate packs are thermally and chemically stable giving dramatically far less risk. The IMPBA rules are clear in regard to charging high performance LiPo packs, one can start with Section J-3 line 5-
http://www.impba.net/attachments/132_Sec-J,_Fast%20Electric%202012.pdf
Choosing to not follow them is by choice, just don't do it my district as anyone making that choice will be warned once and if it continues will find themselves going home early. We in D12 want everyone to have fun but put safety as a top shelf item, hopefully the majority of boaters out there feel the same way.

Have a nice day everyone. :smile:

[DPeterson]

Your late to the party Don. There's been some follow up e-mails on the subject.

The orginal subject here was on lipo sacks. Then I highjacked it and steered it towards to what I considered to be a dangerous procedure utilizing lipo sacks. Then some of you IMPBA boys get on here assuming this is an IMPBA attack. You all need to relax.

This is an open forum for all racing associations and the general boating community. Lets keep it that way please.

The reference to 100's of nitro and gas racers using lipo RX packs was an obvious exaggeration. I will say though that in the 12 years I have been RC boating and racing I have seen way more Nicads and Nimhs blow and burn than I have seen with lipo's.

Doug

[don ferrette]

Late to the party? Nah don't think so Doug, to me there's no such thing when it's a safety issue. You are correct that it's about lipo sacks and if one reads the IMPBA rules it clearly states charging batteries to be done on a non-flammable surface or in a fire containment vessel out of the boat, nowhere is there anything about sacks being required. So a racers has a choice of charging enclosed in something like a lipo sack or on a non flammable surface but the rules clearly state charging will be done OUT OF THE BOAT.

And I'm totally relaxed, the only one I see who got fired up is you because you got called out. Regardless, if you ever decide to journey south you're more than welcome but please don't bring that I'll do what I want approach regarding written safety rules to my neck of the woods, it just doesn't fly around here.

Sorry if you don't like that and don't take it personally it's just that I have a problem with anyone who openly chooses to disregard rules pertaining to safe practices in an open forum regardless of which organization it is. And since you're an IMPBA member to me it's all relevant to reference IMPBA rules in this "discussion".

The IMPBA rules are there for a reason but people are always free to write proposals to change them if they think they have a better idea, it's how we roll.

As you were folks......................

[DPeterson]

I just don't get where you all think this is an IMPBA discussion and that IMPBA rules the RC Boat racing world. IMPBA is a very small piece of my world. And I think it is going to get a lot smaller. There are an awful lot of IMPBA members all hung up on themselves it seems.

Done here. This went from something that could have been positive right down the crapper.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

On the contrary, this has been a very positive thread.
Thank you,
Doug

[Chris Harris]

Doug,
None of us made this just about IMPBA and hung up on ourselves, really?
You are the IMPBA District 4 FE Director are you not? Yet you say you are not going to follow the rules no matter what because we have it all wrong even though our
rules align with manufacture's and other orgs. recommendations.
It's the org you represent so YOU sir made it about IMPBA.


Chris

[Doug Smock]

I just don't get where you all think this is an IMPBA discussion and that IMPBA rules the RC Boat racing world.

Doug
80057

This makes it about the IMPBA.:wink:

And this made it about the IMPBA.

Doug

I am not the one having a hussy about charging Batteries in the boat. You are. And you have already alerted the IMPBA brass many times already. No need for me to do it again.

The rules can tell me to jump off a cliff too - guess what I won't do that either.

Ok, Mr. Peterson,who are you going to blame?
Later,
Doug S., AKA "Little sister".:tiphat:

[DPeterson]

You guys really crack me up. Big fish in a small pond kind of thing.

Again - my involvment in this thread - apologies to the original poster - was to have civil discussions about possible safer ways to charge and handle lipo's. I do not consider lipo sacks to be the safest method. In my opinion this moves the risk of possible "boat damage" to possible "personal injury".

Again - this is an open forum for all RC boaters. I had removed my signature so there was no reference to IMPBA or NAMBA affiliates. I have done my part to respect both IMPBA and NAMBA rules. In turn it would good if you could respect the OSE open forum and allow civil discussions to take place that are important to all RC Boaters.

I will contact Kevin Sheren today and have my name removed as D4 FE Director. Got it because nobody else wanted it anyway. This then should end your quest to continually target me when these types of discussions take place. These discussions will proceed. Another time and place.

Doug

[Ksheren]

Doug P,
I have done what you ask. I have removed your name as D4 FE Director. It is honorable that you stepped down. As you have NO regard for either organizations rules or your fellow racers. By not following the safety rules you put all of the other members (your friends) and
the land owner (the guy that lets you use his pond) at risk. Our Insurance is based on our rules (both organizations).

Please follow the safety rules at the races even if you don’t agree with them. They are there for a reason. I don’t think this is about either organizations it is about what is safe and right.

I don’t like to post on the forums as they always get out of hand.
On as side note I have been racing since 1980 running Nitro, Gas, and now Fast Electric I do not recall ever charging my receiver packs in the boat. I now use lipos in a lipo sack and in a metal ammo can both when charging.


Kevin Sheren
IMPBA President


bigwaveohs I am sorry your post got hijacked. keep boating and enjoy our hobby.

[DPeterson]

Hello Kevin
Thank you for removing me as an FE Director. Sorry to have made you post on a forum.

I am disappointed no one is understanding what the intention of my posts were. Thought I had better communication skills. I have no disregard for anyones rules and or intentions to be safe. I will however admit I am a little behind on updating my charging and handling procedures. While I do this I want my new procedures to be slam dunk and not half way like what is currently being promoted. I can't race much this year anyway so it is a good time for me to do research and then gear up. Real good time for me to cause trouble on the forums. :)

One thing is for sure my new gear and procedures will not include lipo sacks! Another thing is apparent and that is the current rules in both organizations are short in defining not only safe and proper handling procedures but also short in addressing the isssue in case a fire does appear.

Interesting read on the ROAR car racing rules. Lipos must be in a hard case to handle race durability. ROAR mandates the C rating that can be used and also mandates that each lipo must be in its own fire protective case for charging. No more than 1 lipo per charge case. Being ROAR is so large in membership etc why have we not utilized some of this valued resource?

I will continue to do research and start threads as I see fit. OH - And as far as nitro/gas guys charging in the boats I have not personally witnessed this so lets just call it hearsay.

[Jeff]

I wonder if charging in the porta-john would be good enough?

[Steven Vaccaro]

Does the Velcro burn so snaps are better?

"Just so you know.. we have found HUGE advantages to snaps over Velcro when it comes to lipo sacks."
Grim

Sorrry this thread was so taken off course. I see Grim answered your question. So I'm Glad!!

[Darin Jordan]

Interesting read on the ROAR car racing rules. Lipos must be in a hard case to handle race durability. ROAR mandates the C rating that can be used and also mandates that each lipo must be in its own fire protective case for charging. No more than 1 lipo per charge case. Being ROAR is so large in membership etc why have we not utilized some of this valued resource?

Seems that every time I bring up ROAR as a reference, the FE community in general sighs and arms for an attack.

One of the problems with enforcing the use of a hard case pack is our current mAh limits... You'll be hard pressed to find an RC Car hard-case pack these days that is exactly 5,000mAh... Most are 5100, 5200, 5400, etc... Same physical size, just more mAh (rating wise, anyhow)...

About the only way to get a 5,000mAh pack these days is to use the soft-sided Heli/Plane packs...

[Steven Vaccaro]

As for charging in boats. May I ask why this is a rule? In my mind charging in a boat is one of the safer places to charge. I've seen lipo sacks "funnel" flames sideways. Makes the surrounding items susceptible to also burning. In a boat the flames are directed upwards.

[bigwaveohs]

Sorrry this thread was so taken off course. I see Grim answered your question. So I'm Glad!!

Yes he did, and I think I will switch to the snaps as what he said makes sense based on his tests. I'm pretty careful handling the packs so as not to pull on the battery leads, and since I store my packs in a vented metal container inside a metal storage cabinet I'll continue to charge in the sacks.

JMHO,
Pete

[Doug Smock]

As for charging in boats. May I ask why this is a rule? In my mind charging in a boat is one of the safer places to charge. I've seen lipo sacks "funnel" flames sideways. Makes the surrounding items susceptible to also burning. In a boat the flames are directed upwards.

Steve in order to know that we'd have to talk to the guys that penned the rules. Remember who that was? There was lots of talk about them on Lou's forum.
Paul P. Randall, etc.etc.etc. If I'm not mistaken several of the posters here were involved with them. I also remember not everyone agreed with the authors on some aspects of the rules..
I don't remember ANYONE stepping up when the rules were out for a one year trail to change anything except for those two guys that went to work to save the S class and the record books. Remember the FE1 - FE4 thing?
I'm glad to see more people taking interest in straightening out what's left.:wink:
Also,
One thing we've learned this week having lost Miss Gieco is that a fiberglass boat is not a "fire proof vessel". Also some pretty bad stuff involved when you burn resins etc.
http://www.plasticmaterials.net/msds/msds_plastic_materials.html
Doug

[Doug Smock]

Remember all of this guys????

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/search.php?searchid=379895

How about this?
http://impba.net/attachments/152_Dec07.pdf Edit (Page 9)

D.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I'm glad to see more people taking interest in straightening out what's left.:wink:
Also, One thing we've learned this week having lost Miss Gieco is that a fiberglass boat is not a "fire proof vessel". Also some pretty bad stuff involved when you burn resins etc.
http://www.plasticmaterials.net/msds/msds_plastic_materials.html
Doug

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

[sanyijr]

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

Me too....

I do find in a bit puzzling that a simple understanding of why these rules are in place can't be sited...

I am not a IMPBA member, but I use common sense in my safety procedures. I am really a nobody in the FE body, but I have a home, kids and wife to keep safe (for now, but too many FE boats always puts that in peril) and that is more important than rules. And if "following rules" is the only reason for lipo sacks. Ouch. You are trusting a cheap POS chinease made glass fabric sack with cheap stitching made by some 10 year old to not burn you down? The intent here, as noble as can be, seems somewhat misguided. Look at the quality control that goes into a $300 RTR boat? Less goes into the lipo sacks i would assume...

I, for one, trust heavy duty ammo boxes only. I have put many rounds into a ammo box (as in actually shot at and into them) and they are for the most part bullet proof. My family had a handfull in a house that burned down in the Oakland Hills fire in the 1990s. They are VERY fire resisitant. When everything melted, these did not. They cost roughly the same, so I just don't see how any organization would support a lipo sack in the name of being safe when it is most definitely not. It is as falmable as the material next to it. See youtube and every single lipo fire demostrates that the flames blast out the folds actually concentrating the flames.

In my opinion, (and no disrespect to anyone, but it might be too late based on the above), but the lipo sack seems to be a weak attempt at being safe or at least setting the bar VERY low. I just get tired of people pushing them as the end all. But again , just my opinion.

[Doug Smock]

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

Your nose certainly does belong here.:smile:
I was just pointing out how we got here. It isn't some guy in a black cloak that has a IMPBA logo on it. It was (is)the membership.
And for the record, I am all for fixing, changing, modifying, anything that needs to be fixed, changed, or modified.
At the end of the day no matter what organization you belong to, we are all in this together.
D.

[sanyijr]

Kinda sounds like a hug moment... :hug1:

[JIM MARCUM]

Just for the record I'm not out to change anything. Just putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

Steven, your nose is in the right place. You and this forum provide information about our FE sport that can't be found elsewhere.

Keep up the good work. JIM:spy:

[bigwaveohs]

The best bet might be a fire resistant Kevlar bag. Or maybe toss some of this stuff on the LiPo fire?

80237

[m4a1usr]

I have avoided making a comment about this subject until now but if clubs are worried about just the container to charge in at events why dont you guys use some simple and cheap? Lipo sacks are not really rated for the protection you guys are seeking. They are honestly just a decent transportation protection container but nothing more. Velcro/snaps. Doesnt matter, the sacks are thin fiberglass and would never pass any industry standard for being fire proof.

On this realization it should be accepted as some form of minium storage standard. Charging? Your just accepting some un quantified sack manufacturers hype. Even the videos being used to portray their effectivness is subjective. What you guys with a bit of vision should do is use something that already exsists in form and is more than rated to contain this realtively simple worry. A bit of research or even use commonly available containers. There are several that scream out immediately.

Clay or terra cotta containers, although they can be fragile, would be more than acceptable by any firemarshal. Ceramic plannting pots too. They come in many shapes, sizes. And are a bit more durable. The list goes on and on. Heck, a cheap crock pot has more than enough capability. You dont need to lock the container down with latches like a metal box, although something like a 5.56/7.62 or even 50cal box are very cheap and with a couple holes punched thru the side for the wires would allow for more than enough protection. Honestly what you need to worry about is a blazing piece of plastic, not a bomb ready to blast a nearby observer.

I guess what I'm saying is define the requirements, set a minimum set of standards, research products that will meet those and put them in place. If anyone/ club wants to talk about some known standards used by the government email me. No dont PM me. I worked POPs testing standards for years, if you dont know what that means just google it, I can provide you with some set standards and engineering guidance. What the organizations are attempting is commendable. Just dont make it complicated because it doesnt need to be.

John

[DPeterson]

Very reasonable post John.

Problem is there is no real desire from anyone to tackle this issue and do it thoroughly. When it begins to get discussed we get selective groups from various parts of the country thinking they got it right. Pretty easy to pick out 1 or 2 of the recommended or required charging cautions for your rules and disregard all the others. Then use that as your basis for calling someone out. Changes the entire focus to actually get safe charging talked about and moving forward. And after going through this review I would expect or hope real safety rules are being discussed.

My current safe charging protocal far exceeds all the safe charging protocals being promoted. My protocal meets more of the manufactures requirements than any of the others including what I consider to be the most important - "Monitor your packs during charging". This can only be done visually and with access to the cells. My protocal addresses the concerns with cell structure, durability and time for remedial action in the case of an incident.

But again - nobody cares. If it really mattered these threads would have more views and more input from just a few.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

Pretty easy to pick out 1 or 2 of the recommended or required charging cautions for your rules and disregard all the others. Then use that as your basis for calling someone out.

Doug

Moderator hat off.
Oh brother, good thing you have all of that cheese Mr. Peterson.

Send Chris Harris anything you have come up with that is positive. We have set aside some time at the SAWs in Huntsville at the end of the month (28, 29) to discuss LiPo safety with the Safety Director.
Shortly there after we will be making a recommendation to the board. Remember, safety rules don't have to go to the membership for a vote, that can be done at the board level.
Perhaps you can come join us. Bring a boat or two for the 1/4 mile, and at the end of the day I'll buy you a BEER.:wink:
Doug S.

[ozzie-crawl]

Not saying it is a bad thing as i use one myself,but metal boxes and electricity can cause problems. So i dont think a Ammo box is the best bet either.
One other thing on sealed boxes. Putting anything explosive in a sealed container has the potential of being for want of a better word a Bomb.

[ron1950]

i dont think u can take off a moderator hat can ya? told ya it was going to be rough to be a moderator

[Doug Smock]

Sure I can, I just did.:wink:

Driving on now!

Moderator hat back on
See ya at the pond guys!!

[Steven Vaccaro]

I don't think Doug ever has to take off the hat. Being a Mod on OSE is not like some other forums. The Mods here are active participants in the forum and hobby and should act and be treated as such. We are not just "police".