A Rooky Seeking Some Guidance Please

[searay skipper]

I started a thread in the general discussion area looking for some help and it was suggested to me that this forum might be a better place. Rather than starting from the beginning and typing out my situation again.....I copied and pasted my "tale of woe" below in hopes that some of you knowledgeable folks here might consider helping a rooky out.

I already got a few "scrap it and buy something better" responses....not surprisingly. But I don't want to do that just yet and would like to see if I can do something with what I already have.

Thanks.
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Hello all....brand new here..first post.

I have absolutely NO experience with RC's of any sort.

A couple of us at my yacht club thought it might be fun to buy a couple of rc boats and have our own little races for beer while out boating with our real boats and anchored somewhere.

Well...it appears that we made the mistake of not buying decent quality hobby grade boats and bought some cheap rtr things from a hobby store online. Big mistake.....that cheap Chinese stuff obviously isn't the way to go. I've got $250 into mine and it's done already. At my age I guess I should have known better but......

A couple of people have suggested that I gut it and rebuild with decent quality components. Problem is I have virtually no idea where to start. Been reading forums and countless threads by all of you experienced folks but with no experience at all.....all of the technical jargon is kinda confusing and I have no idea at this point what to start buying....there are just too many choices and I don't want to start out buying the wrong components in hopes of making this boat work. It appears I already blew it by buying the wrong boat....I don't want to make things worse by throwing good money after bad and buying the wrong components in hopes of making this thing work. So I'm hoping someone here will be kind enough to steer me in the right direction.

I bought this 45" thing called a Darter King. Has 3 "550" motors running on a 12 volt battery.

Here's a link to it....hope it works:

http://www.bananahobby.com/1680.html

I'm not adverse to gutting this thing and trying to do something with it. But I'd like to apply the K.I.S.S. principal here and keep things VERY basic to begin with while I get my feet wet. Not terribly interested right now in huge speeds. I'd be satisfied for now if I could get the 35-40 mph out of it that they advertised it was supposed to do. Yeah right!!!!!!!!! Not even close.

Perhaps as I gain experience and knowledge I may experiment further down the road and upgrade it even more....IF....this hull is even worth keeping and experimenting with. But all in good time. I'm just trying to learn to walk right now before I try to start running.

Now....keeping in mind that I don't want to break the bank by trying to sink a ton of money into this thing......is there anyone here who would be kind enough to recommend things like a motor...or motors......esc...batteries...servos....radio gear etc....that I can start out slowly with to hopefully get this thing going....and who knows...maybe even start winning a few of those aforementioned beers off my buddy?

If you had this boat....what if anything would you do with it? Be gentle please.

I know there are an awful lot of choices out there when selecting components....therein lies a huge part of the confusion. This hobby looks like it could be fun but man....it's alot more complicated than I expected. I obviously have alot to learn.

Perhaps in time if the bug bites me hard enough I may want to go on to bigger and better things but for now....I just want to try to do something with this thing to get it working reliably.....keeping it simple...and relatively inexpensive.

Any help/guidance I can get here would be greatly appreciated.

[dont slow down]

You may just want to try a better battery. I'm not sure what the speed control could handle but 12V isn't very much voltage for 3 550 motors. Many guys are running 11.1V on one motor. You might toast your speed control but it might be fun for a minute. If you end up trying to upgrade this thing, that's three motors you have to replace or upgrade, plus three speed controls. Very costly for quality stuff. If you want to take out one or two props then you are talking about modifying the hull, probably something you aren't ready for. Honestly you will spend more to upgrade it than to buy a decent boat. The Proboat Miss Geico is probably the most popular boat to jump into because it's quick, good quality and very upgradable. If it was me I'd buy a bigger battery, toss it in there and see how long it lasts, then toss it.

Edit: Or you could keep it the way it is, buy a nice quality boat and use this one as a rescue boat if your other boat ever needs a push back in. Then at least its not a total waste. :laugh: Maybe let the grandkids play with it or something.

[izcain]

I second the rescue boat idea. Unless you are attached to the boat and really just want to upgrade and don't care about the money aspect.

[srislash]

I have got the perfect old ESC with "no home"for you.It is called a Turbo Zeta by Product Design.You could wire all three of your motors parallel to it.It was a cutting edge ESC for it's time but I'm all about brushless motors now.

I'll add to this,can you remove the props?Perhaps they are threaded 4mm which would give you some options. And what other gripes do you have with this animal.

[searay skipper]

Thank you guys for the responses. Really appreciate them....one and all.

"You may just want to try a better battery. I'm not sure what the speed control could handle but 12V isn't very much voltage for 3 550 motors. "

In actuality....when fully charged...I get about a 14.4V reading on my meter with this battery

"Or you could keep it the way it is, buy a nice quality boat and use this one as a rescue boat "

That's an interesting idea..I'll keep that in mind. But even to use it for that....I've gotta get it working first. Right now....motors work...but I can't steer it. The servo is pooched. Or maybe something else in the circuitry in the printed circuit board it has. Electricity...I'm OK with. Electronics....not so much. There are no plugs to just pull and replace faulty components...everything is hard wired and soldered in.

"Unless you are attached to the boat and really just want to upgrade and don't care about the money aspect. "

It's not that I'm so attached to this thing.....but since I have it I just thought I'd see if I can do something with it......a learning experience before going on to bigger and better things. Money isn't really a huge factor here.....but to start out with.....I wanted to tinker with this thing as cheaply as possible to learn the ins and outs of this hobby first. Trust me....I know all too well how costly hobbies can get....been there done that. And if/when I do get deeper into this game....as someone mentioned....my Grandson can have this thing. My wife may really come to regret the day I bought this first "toy" just for the sake of getting a beer or two off a buddy when we're out boating. :rofl:

Thanks for jumping into the fray here slash.

I read with great interest the guidance you've been providing that young lad in another thread and kinda hoped you might chime in here.

My biggest issue here with this thing right now is the servo....I can't steer it. It has a little printed circuit board with 4 wires soldered to it. Terrible "cold" solder joints....wires barely holding on with one strand of wire. I touched 2 and they simply fell off. I resoldered them....but the servo simply flips erratically back and forth. It will steer left a couple times but not right....and then it just goes stupid on me....rudder flipping back and forth all on its own.

Also has this other printed circuit board which presumably is a combined speed contriol system with the radio rx incorporated in it.

The motors all run.

So....what I was wondering about was.....

Could I rip out the electronics in this thing and the servo....and replace with a proper esc (what size I have no idea).....and a better servo......upgrade to a 2.4 ghz radio tx and rx.....get this thing running and start digging into my buddy's beer cooler? LOL LOL

The props are replaceable....the boat came with 3 spare plastic props. I don't think they're screwed on.....I think they're held on with tiny allen set screws. I'll have to look again.

Slash....I may take you up on that esc if you're interested in parting with it and you believe it could work.

Keep in mind please guys....at this point I'm obviously no where near your levels of knowledge and expertise here. In talking with each other here you guys are using terminology that is still all Greek to me. In time I'll likely be able to understand what you're all talking about.....but right now alot of the lingo here...technical jargon....acronyms you all use......are still flying over my head.

Before I can go anywhere in this game I have to start learning what you guys are talking about.....like this stuff:

Inrunner vs outrunner

nano-tech 45-90c 3s lipo

6s1p 5000mah 40c.

8s2p

8s2p with 4x 4s batteries. 40c and over. HUH??????????? :confused2:

What is 6s1p.....8s2p.....40c??????????? Battery talk....but what does it mean?

Reading through the batteries forum to try to get a handle on it all.

Anyway....I'm retired....have time on my hands.....some disposable income to play with (but I don't want to start going crazy here with my first kick at the cat).....come from a technical background....and don't mind tinkering in my shop in the evening while the wife is watching "The Bachelor" or some other darn thing on TV. :biggrin:

Wanting to experiment with this thing now is just that....an experiment and a learning experience to get my feet wet in a new hobby I may very well take to more seriously later on.

Thanks again for any and all input here.

Edit: AH HA...just found the Battery Info 101 page on the OSE Home page....interesting.

[srislash]

I'll pick at this knowledge stuff for you Skipp but firstly,If I were you I would replace the electronics as that stuff will be garbage.I've played with that kind of stuff as the family seems to think I can fix anything.I hate that cheap, umm,overseas junk.The guys around me are running these in their trail trucks successfully http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15141__Hobby_King_GT_2_2_4Ghz_2Ch_Tx_Rx_USA_Ware house_.html You would probably want to waterproof the stuff but we'll probably get to that later.I would keep this budget on this low. Make sense?
So it seems batteries have got you spinning a bit(I know how you feel). Batteries are cells that are stacked in series together IE: 2s,3s,5s,8s.
We refer to how many packs you are running in parallel IE: 1P,2P,not usually more than that.Lets say you have 2 3s packs at 5000 mah,you can series them to make 6s 1P(22.2 volts) which would give you 5000 mah capacity.If you wired them in parallel you would have 3s 2P (11.1 volts)giving you 10,000 mah capacity.
Packs have a charge rate and a discharge rate.Most packs will charge at 1c.If it is a 3300mah pack you would charge it at up to 3.3 amps.Better batteries can charge at higher rates and thereby charge up quicker.
The discharge rate is the 25c,30c,40c.This means the battery will discharge at IE: 40 times it's rated amps. A 4s 40c 3300 mah battery will discharge at 132 amps(40 X 3300)
Hope this helps and we can tackle something else when I get back from getting coffee stuff from the store.

[searay skipper]

"I would keep this budget on this low. Make sense?"

Yup....we're on the same song page in this regard. :thumbup1:

I have a sneaking suspicion you may be my saviour here. :biggrin:

Below is a little list of things someone else here suggested to me a couple days ago. As you can see,,,,,he also understands where I'm coming from and trying to accomplish relatively cheaply for my first kick at the cat with this cheap Chinese thing. I'd rather tinker with the less expensive parts while I go through the learning curve. Won't feel so bad if I fry something in the process. LOL

Later....when I'm no longer satisfied with this things performance....assuming I get it to perform at all......I'd likely want to start getting into bigger and better things. Usually the way things go huh? Boys with their toys. I've got a sense of adventure and up for a little challenge now and then.

As for batteries.....doing some reading and trying to digest it all. Thanks for the explanations.

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The cheap route to get it up and running and make it usable without scraping it would be to simply slightly improve what you have. What I would do is get 2 brushless motors on the cheap..(simply get rid of the 3rd motor).like 2 of these: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._Inrunner.html

In that submerged drive setup I would run 2s lipos which would result in aprox 22000 rpm with that 3000kv motor. I would think you wouldn't want to get carried away with much higher rpm as with a submerged drive it will just shoot it out of the water if you go too crazy.

For an ESC I would get 2 of these to run each motor: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._Boat_ESC.html

Then you just need a reciever/tansmitter which I would get this:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html

And a Servo for steering which you can pick up for like $10

And a water jacket for each motor to cool it.

Then to make it handle better some turn fins from here on OSE, a couple water pick-ups to get the water into the esc/motor for cooling and maybe a few other misc. parts I am missing.

With all that I listed you would be able to do it all for under $200

Now would it work...who knows, will it reach 30+mph...unlikely...would it blow up eventually..again I don't know, I am only giving a suggestion, and I am probably gonna get slammed because I recommended cheap parts, or the wrong setup etc.. but if that's that case they can maybe recommend something better.

Again I am new to all this too, but I can see how you want to use what you already have and yes the best route to go would be to get a whole new boat, but if you want to stick with what you got that would be my suggestion.

[srislash]

As far as I am concerned I agree with keeping the "curve" on the cheap side.That being said,if you get the bug,buy good stuff(ESC's).That way you will have them to play around with on other projects.It is not too hard to hit 35mph.The ESC that I have would be good for running all three motors and on the cheap.It is just in my way.I should check it out a little more but it works and is good for like 1600 amps and 30+ volts.
So are you wanting to play on salt water then?

[ozzie-crawl]

Being you definitely want to do this. do you have a inside picture. Being its a submerged drive i would guess the drive shaft is a solid straight rod. if you could get a coupler (goes from motor to drive shaft/flex) that fits it,you mite get away with using a single outrunner from hobbyking. by keeping the same drive/prop and running low rpms you may get away with a cheap motor/esc and a transmitter like posted above.
batteries and charger would not be wasted as they could go into next project.
I have not used any of the larger outrunners from hobbyking,hopefully someone who has can suggest something

[izcain]

Lets see some pics of the inside of this thing!

I would get a nice servo and just clip the old wiring and wire in the new one for steering.

[searay skipper]

Slash....


"So are you wanting to play on salt water then?"

No....Kingston Ontario here....fresh water only.

If you want to part with that esc....pm me and perhaps we can work something out.

"As far as I am concerned I agree with keeping the "curve" on the cheap side.That being said,if you get the bug,buy good stuff(ESC's).That way you will have them to play around with on other projects"

Couldn't agree more.


"I would get a nice servo and just clip the old wiring and wire in the new one for steering. "

Yup...that's the kind of thing I'd like to do but also get rid of the cheap printed circuit board in it now and replace that with an esc...and then get a 2.4 radio rx and tx....and try to run with that. Not looking for breakneck blazing speed.....YET. :biggrin: All in good time. If I can get this thing to run and steer properly....and maybe give me something like 30-40 mph......as it was advertised.....I'd be satisfied. I suspect the need for speed will make its way into the picture eventually.... but for now I'm content to crawl while I learn before trying to run.

I'll take some good quality pics of the inside of this pos and post them here when I figure out how to.

Thanks again all.

[searay skipper]

OK.....so here are some pics of this thing. After seeing a bunch of the pics and vids here of boats you guys are into...this thing is kinda embarrassing now. :frusty:

Anyway....I just got an e-mail from BH telling me my request to them for replacements/refund is being looked at and they'll be back to me within 48 hours to tell me what they're going to do with me.

One way or another I believe this thing will be staying here so I'll carry on trying to do something with it..I'm sure my Grandson will love it.....while I start looking closer at other things. :laugh:

[searay skipper]

Last two.....

[Visual Perfection]

If you can take slash up on that esc he has you would be set. Then all you need is a RX/TX like the one I posted in the link. and a servo and you would be good to go electronics wise...other than batteries obviously. Then you might be able to throw 4s in it (14.8v) and get some more speed out of it..as well as a change in props.

Not sure how fast it is now, but 35-40mph is pretty fast and is most likely going to take going brushless to achieve. For comparison here is my 40" boat running 4s batteries doing about 35 mph

ob6j-O1hWpg

And it on 5s doing a hair over 40mph

XJzLqzvMKAo

[searay skipper]

Shoot VP.....if I could get this goofy thing doing anywhere near that I'd be content. That doesn't look bad at all. :thumbup1:

I could run circles around the thing my buddy bought from BH and take him for ALL his beer! LOL LOL

[dont slow down]

I agree Visual Perfection, if you can get that ESC from slash, toss a radio and receiver in it with a servo it will at least be a runner. I doubt you will get 30-40mph out of it at all. Anyway start with that, swap everything but motors and see what you get. Any more than that and it starts to not be worth it. I'd still invest in a good radio, charger, and lipo batteries. Those can go into any other boat you end up with later on down the road. Get it into a runner, try a few cheap tweaks (props, play with center of gravity etc) then jump ship and get something that will feed your need for speed. Many people start out this way (including myself). We get a cheap boat, want more out of it, realize it's not worth it and end up buying a nice boat. Haha. It only gets worse from there. I'm in the process of changing out my first "toy" quality boat into a rescue boat. Kinda doing what your doing but one step further.

Edit: you know......you don't really see too many triple prop boats around. Could make for an interesting platform for a project boat later on down the road.

[searay skipper]

yeah I'm waiting to hear from slash to see what if anything we can come up with on that esc. if that works out....I'll be placing an order soon from OSE or HK for the other things that are recommended to me.

We have a hobby shop here that has most everything I'd need I think....but when I was in chatting with them a couple weeks ago I wasn't real fond of the prices they were throwing at me.

We'll see how all this turns out now that I've found a source for virtually unlimited knowledge and experience here....and other sources for components.

[srislash]

Hey there Skipp,apparently my presence is required. All I want for this ESC is to see it in use again.If you could cover shipping that would be great.I have a manual and the program "computer" for it. Hehe,it has toggles for setting programs.

Shawn
Ah heck,I didn't even realize you were a fellow countryman.

[searay skipper]

You're a gentleman and a scholar Shawn. :thumbup:

PM sent.

[searay skipper]

Terminology question.....

Would someone explain the differences between "inrunner" and "outrunner" please?

Oh yeah......and "stinger" too?????????????

[ozzie-crawl]

Inrunner = same as your motors in your boat. if they were brushless it would just have the magnets windings reversed.
Brushed= magnets are stationary, windings (stator) spin.
Brushless= magnet spins,windings are stationary.

Outrunner. The outer housing has the magnets and it spins.windings are stationary. little video at the end you will see motor casing spin (outrunner) http://youtu.be/QrL1ligv9gc

there could be some exceptions but in general terms thats how there different

[searay skipper]

so inrunner vs outrunner....what are the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other?

and the "stinger" is????

[ozzie-crawl]

Stinger bolts on to rear of boat and has the shaft go threw it with prop on the end. Mainly used with monos but also used on cats when running twin motors.A single motor cat just uses a strut that sits in the middle of the tunnel. Twin cat runs stingers of each sponson. Basicly extends the prop of the rear of the hull.
Inrunners are mainly used in boats and have a cooling can on the out side that water runs threw.
Outrunners are used more in planes and helis but are being used more and more in boats.there air cooled as they spin.
Some people add a water cooled motor mount when using outrunners.
They produce a lot of torque compared to a inrunner.

[searay skipper]

Thanks Ozzie.

From time to time I'm running across other terminology here that I don't understand. You guys know what you're all talking about....but for a rooky.....alot of it is still Greek. I'm still working on getting my head around the battery lingo....then I see:

"Caps"???????
"Drive Dogs"????????

And other stuff that doesn't immediately come to mind at the moment.

Kinda hard to know what you guys are talking about without understanding the lingo. :confused1:

[searay skipper]

Well......if BH ever wants this thing back....they're going to be getting it in pieces...started gutting it in prep for putting other stuff in.

I suppose many of you have seen this sort of thing before but here's the "esc" .....rx....and servo I just ripped out of it.

[ejimbo4]

Searay skipper....somewhere here on this forum there is a list of terminology and abbreviations some of the guys put together. Maybe one of them will chime in and give a link...I searched but couldn't find it.

[Visual Perfection]

Well......if BH ever wants this thing back....they're going to be getting it in pieces...started gutting it in prep for putting other stuff in.

I suppose many of you have seen this sort of thing before but here's the "esc" .....rx....and servo I just ripped out of it.

Let the fun begin!

[searay skipper]

"somewhere here on this forum there is a list of terminology and abbreviations some of the guys put together. Maybe one of them will chime in and give a link"

That would be helpful for sure.

Be nice to understand what all you guys are talking about as I read all these threads.

[Brushless01]

To be honest with you, id just get a good RTR like a Proboat miss Geico and keep this for a rescue boat.

[searay skipper]

I'll keep that in mind thanks. :thumbup1: