What motor for higher speed, castle 1515 or castle 1717?

[sk8onwater]

It's going in a genesis single drive. Batteries have not been chosen yet. So suggestions on motor, battery and prop would be appreciated. The hull is on its way an should arrive next week. My goal is at least mid 60's, would like to see 70+

[RaceMechaniX]

A 1515 has a higher speed rating due a smaller rotor diameter.

[Fluid]

I assume 6S...I used a 1515 in my SAW cat, it is too small for the Genesis. The 1717 is a better choice. Prop will depend on the packs you use.

[Rumdog]

The genesis is VERY small for a 37 inch boat. The 1515 works great in it. The 1817 would be too much. Any decent size prop is gonna make that boat torque roll uncontrollably.

[Fluid]

The 1515 will not get the 70+ mph speeds you want reliably with decent run time...I know as I've tried it in the 32" Skunkworks cat. The 1515 is really too small for 6S without getting too hot - reliability again. The 1717 will have the mass needed to absorb the heat and can turn an appropriate prop - m645 or x648 - without any torque roll problems. I spun those props (and larger ones) in my little Skunkworks cat and it ran just fine up to 88 mph - no torque roll obviously. The 1717 is large, but it will pull low amps with a 45-48 mm prop extending run time. If you ever want to go faster, it has the ability to turn a high pitched prop without overheating.

Be careful who you listen to here, apparently some just type to hear their keys clack.


.

[sk8onwater]

Thanks. This is my first FE boat and I don't really know what I'm doing as far as the build. Its purpose is more straight line speed, turning is not as necessary since it is more of a drag boat

[Rumdog]

Jay's the big boy genius. Listen to him. He's obviosly set up Genesis hulls before.

I think his ignore feature must be broken.

[sundog]

I'd go with a 1450kv Leopard 4082 @ 6S - more power than those Castles at half the price. Start with a 45mm prop and work up watching temps. Use a good speed control - say, a T180 or a 200A Swordfish. Or takes yo' chances with the $45 China 200A esc's if you feel lucky. Hmm... better get two or three of those! :olleyes:

[sk8onwater]

Who's jay? Im not on a first name basis with anyone here

[LarrysDrifter]

Jay is Fluid. My 1717's have 6mm shafts. I do have a 6 x .187 collet to throw in.

[sk8onwater]

I'm afraid I just got put on a boat build budget. Both kids just got back from the orthodontist and both are getting braces at the first of the year. I'm glad I already ordered the hull and it's winter so I can't tuna anyway.

[6BOOST]

The genesis is so narrow it DOES torque roll like a bitch with a 47+mm prop, I had mine out with a turnigy 3994 a few weeks ago which would be similar in power output to a 1717 and it had enough torque roll to flip itself over at will with the slightest bit of over acceleration. I would stick with the 4082 leopard, proven to easily do these speeds, do not use 6s/5ah batteries as they are too tight in the sponsons imo, either go 6s/4ah/2p or use 2 3s/5ah packs in series if your not looking for long run times and want to run batts in parallel. A 1600kv 4082 will get you to 70, 2200kv on 6s has gone 89mph.

6BOOST

[Make-a-Wake]

You may have trouble fitting a 1717 into a Genesis

[properchopper]

Who's jay? Im not on a first name basis with anyone here

Hello Chris, my name is Tony - I go by "the Properchopper". Welcome to our "thing". Jay [Fluid] is a friend of mine and my earliest mentor in FE. His knowledge and advice has one thing that I respect more than many other well-meaning advice-givers : He has done/run more FE boats than just about anyone I know. That's the distinction that makes his input so valuable - his hands on EXPERIENCE. I hang on his every word, which often comes unadorned with any "sugar coating". While we all aspire to direct entry-level boaters in the right direction, I prefer to follow those that have actually had direct, hands-on experience with the issues under discussion. We all mean well and it's your perogative to filter the information you receive. My personal code is to only offer suggestions based on what I've actually built and put on the pond rather than espouse what I "think" (although there's some obvious exceptions to this.) All of our "opinions" bear consideration, but when Jay speaks, I listen.

That being said, I'll go out on a limb here and offer that getting braces for the kids could be a blessing in disguise; a first build with the goal of mid sixties/70 + is rather ambitious goal. Get some water time with a more maneagable setup and work your way up. Things get pretty crazy/destructive over 60 mph ( and I DO know that from personal experience !)

Good luck and all the best,

Tony
rcboatbuild@hotmail.com

Jay's Q-Offshore cat : 84 mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxNrlVCNdH8

[sk8onwater]

Thank you for the advice. This isn't my first boat althought it has been a while. I fly sport planes and helis and drive 1/10th scale road cars, just got out of 8th scale dirt. I'm not worried about my abilities to control the boat at speeds so the high speed quest will continue. It wil just be spring now before I see water due to my budget

[Flying Scotsman]

Listen to the advice of some seasoned boaters......your speed aspirations with that hull and as you state you are a newbie are not feasible.....walk before you run and be aware that high speeds on model boats can injure people.

Douggie

[sk8onwater]

Again. I am not new to the rc world or boats. I am just not familiar with the FE setups and I don't plan on running it in swim areas or anything. I am an adult and have been in the rc hobby since the mid 80s so I am aware the dangers these projectiles can be to spectators. Helis are far more dangerous than boats so I am careful where I run and who is around. I am looking for advice to help me reach what will goal. What most newbies don't understand is that these thing have throttles and not just ran at full speeds. I hope this post didn't offend but I'm not a 12 year old kid with his first rc boat...

[Flying Scotsman]

Chris, FE boating is a steep learning curve, be realistic with your goals and budget and people like Tony and Jay will help you.

Douggie

[jasoncyclone]

I say go for the GOLD!!!! Why not try for the 60-70mph and see what happens.... At worst case you burn up some electronics. I would just do TONS of reading and put together a boat that make you happy. I am not hacking on other members here just saying what I would do. My first gas boat that I built was a 45 inch Cyclone with a modded 35cc motor that hit upper 70's first time out!! MANY people said it could not be done or not even attempted. You may burn it up, but you may just come off the lake with a grin from ear to ear and a great memory the you will remember for a long time.

[Rumdog]

Tony, I agree with waht you say about Jay. His tips throughout this forum have helped me tons.

That being siad, I have no use for being spoken to like I'm an idiot, or ignorant. I believe I have more experience with this particular boat than he does. Therefore, I believe my advice to be somewhat valuable to someone who is wanting to build one.

[LarrysDrifter]

Wish I knew you had a Gen. on its way. I have a new hull setup for twin drive. Let me know when your ready to build. You can bring your stuff over and we ll mess with it.

[sk8onwater]

Damn. I wish I would have known. I was tempted by the twin but didn't want to cut and drill for my first FE

[properchopper]

Thank you for the advice. This isn't my first boat althought it has been a while. I fly sport planes and helis and drive 1/10th scale road cars, just got out of 8th scale dirt. I'm not worried about my abilities to control the boat at speeds so the high speed quest will continue. It wil just be spring now before I see water due to my budget

Chris, first let me apologize for making the assumption that you have no r/c experience. My bad. I have seen plane, car, and heli pilots get into boats without many of the issues and pitfalls that befall first-time boaters with little or no r/c experience. With your background it's likely that your re-entry into FE boats will keep you ahead of the game. I do believe 'tho that what some of us are saying is that jumping in with the aspiration to hit the speeds you're looking for does need some precautionary thought. Let me explain it this way : Imagine a bone stock rtr, say like the Impulse 31, in absolute stock form being run. The likelihood for "crash and burn" problems are mimimal. OTOH when you enter the realm of very high performance as in what your proposing, the likelihood/probability for destructive crashes and incendiary equipment failure goes WAY up. Controlling FE boats at hyper speed ain't that easy- they do have a mind of their own and even the best r/c boat pilots are helpless once things get squirelly (and airborne, a common extravaganza at mach speeds) That's all I'm saying. I do hope your project reaches your goal with a minimum of "issues" ! Keep us posted on your progress and you'll find there's some good advice here on OSE.

Tony

[sk8onwater]

Yeah I know the dangers of high performance/speed rc. My third 1/10 scale road car was a .18 nitro Picco motored all carbon RSI 4 with a 2 speed transmission. Every piece was picked individually so I could have a high end car. Guesstimated speed was easily high 60s. First night out I lost control at full speed and hit a light post. It wasn't pretty.

[properchopper]

Yeah I know the dangers of high performance/speed rc. My third 1/10 scale road car was a .18 nitro Picco motored all carbon RSI 4 with a 2 speed transmission. Every piece was picked individually so I could have a high end car. Guesstimated speed was easily high 60s. First night out I lost control at full speed and hit a light post. It wasn't pretty.

I hear ya'. Not too many light posts on my local lake, but Oh, those SST's (semi-submerged turtles) :sinking-guy:

[sk8onwater]

I think I have read a build thread of yours. One of them I read it seemed that every other time they ran they were hittin a turtle. I have two large ponds/small lakes that I will be running on a well as a creek and river My boat should arrive today

[T.S.Davis]

First boat.........70 mph. I think Jay and I had had this conversation with Pachmeyer once upon a time.

Why not go for a 100? 1527/1D on 6s2p with an X450. You'll need a lot of ESC though. Should be close if it doesn't blow up or stuff.

Carry on.

[sk8onwater]

Why even stop there?!? I should put a turbine on it and try for 200. Again not my first boat, I've been around for awhile this is my first brushless though. mid 60s is easily achievable so I am asking advise. I see that you are a senior member so I guess I should bow down because of your experience, but if you are going to mock me for asking a legitimate question then don't even bother. I came to this site to get knowledge of brushless boats, if you don't respect that ignore my post so you won't have to bother with my inexperience.

[T.S.Davis]

Can do.

No bowing necessary. Carry on.

[6BOOST]

I see both sides of the story here. Sk8 just try to understand that the guys being negative here have been around for a long time and seen literally 100's of people with high aspirations new to the hobby. It's easy to get carried away with how cheap as fast technology is these days and pick a number that seems impressive based on readings of other people's achievements, in this instance 60-70mph and not realize just how insane it really is doing these speeds. trust me when I say from first hand experience that you will find 70mph in your first boat to be much like an out of control ballistic missile.

Now to the flip side, to tell you how I know. And that is because just like you I am new to FE boating and come from a background of various hobbies and motorsports with some real cars and ecu tuning thrown in, I started with a genesis not that long ago and on my first time in the water on much too small a lake did 68mph on a common gps style unit and didn't hit full throttle for more than 1 second. The 3994 fitted was similar in power to the 1717, and run with a sharpened, balanced and detounged x447 prop was absolutely uncontrollable, torque rolling like an animal and making a mockery of the size of my lake which is actually pretty big.

As it was only a slap together job to learn a few things on, I rushed a few things not really caring about the outcome, which in the end led to coming unstuck in a few ways. Due to the size of the 6s/5ah packs, I could velco the packs down, but not put a strap around them to the battery trays, this led to the weight of them cracking the 2 front corners of the deck from the weight throwing up slightly in a crash. Secondly just using epoxy to hold everything down rather than resin and better prep work led to the motor mount and esc mount being torn loose pulling the motor bullets out of the esc and shorting the speedy which apart from the hull was the biggest loss of the crash. While it's feasible to fix it, I never intended it to have a long life, so it will be retired, but with the blown speedy that one accident was $500 of damage.

More experience would have helped me to know that the epoxy wouldn't hold and to spend more time doing it properly, and for saw use with torque roll that changing the throttle curve would have made the boat more controllable getting up to speed. With inexperience comes enthusiasm and more so when you have something capable of such speeds at your fingertips and this fact alone on your first boat will make you do silly things even if you think you won't, just realize that everyone is only trying to save you a box full of destroyed bits and the disappointment that may go with it. I expected destruction and have already learnt from the experience, if you are on a budget, this situation may not have sat well with you under the same circumstances and is all the guys above are trying to save you the heartache of.

6BOOST

[jasoncyclone]

That was a great explanation 6boost!

6boost, why do you call yourself that? Do you have a boosted 6 cylinder? I do..

[properchopper]

Kyle, WOW ! You just stated what I've been holding back saying. Kudos. And Kris, please know the frustration some of us experience when we see a well-intentioned new friend begin a project that has a high probability of negatives. What do we do ? Sit back and watch as you crash and burn ? Or maybe try to guide you into a more realistic direction ( and get slammed for butting in). I'll take the high road here and do what I can to see if I can save some of your time and money, and dislike me if you must. Taking the gloves off, know that :

The Genesis hull, like most Chinese graphic-intensive knockoffs of European products, is a low-budget construction. While looking sharp (with the marketing intention of being purchased by the "buy with your eyes" customer), is constructed with lightweight materials, has little reinforcement where it counts, and will have almost zero chance of remaining intact under duress. And please know with knowingness that cats achieving the speeds that you are wishing to run, will almost always experience blowovers, cartwheels and barrel rolls. Like Kyle experienced, there goes all that work and $$. So proceed if you must. I seriously wish you the best. And keep in mind the words of an early Bob Dylan song : " There's no success like failure, but failure's no success at all"

Oh, and Terry, you said you'd stay away. You must be a glutton for punishment. I like that (the glutton thing) Don't Go !!

Tony

[Flying Scotsman]

Agreed, if it was the OLD DOUGGIE who has now mellowed, I would have been banned.

Douggie

[properchopper]

Agreed, if it was the OLD DOUGGIE who has now mellowed, I would have been banned.

Douggie

C'mon Sir Douggie, what would life be if some of us wouldn't have the stones to stand up and remind others that "the Emperor has no clothes" ? :wink:

[Flying Scotsman]

LOL, and yes I am still a cranky old fart and I was upset on hearing of the death of Christopher Hitchens...what a great intellectual....and apologies to digress from the subject matter.

Douggie

[T.S.Davis]

No, I owe sk8onwater an apology. I'm sorry for typing like such a prick. To be honest my frustration isn't with you or your quest for 70. It's with the on-line community. It's like it has no conscience some times. The on-line community as a whole has no problem recommending setups to get you to any speed you can dream up. No concern for what you know, how you run, where you run. That silly setup I mentioned could get you to a hundred....in theory, on paper, in a perfect world of perfect balance, and perfect props, and candy canes, and gum drops. In reality the first flip and you'll have a yard sale inside the boat at best or it will just explode when it lands at worst. Call the diver. How have I helped you then?

I recognize that sk8 had some rc experience. Didn't sound like much FE experience though. Going 70 with an electric boat takes more than just power. It takes tweaking and adjusting. I'm not suggesting sk8 isn't capable of that. But I don't "KNOW" what he's capable of. Will the boat survive the third tumble with the strut adjusted a little off? Can't say, depends on how it lands but sketchy. 70 really gobbles up ponds quick, will he be running it on a nice safe pond or an open lake? I don't know. Is he a safety kind of guy? I don't know. At 70mph he better be because if not someone could get hurt. Maybe he is. I hope he is. I simply do not know. Neither do these guys that are recommending the setups to get him to 70 for his first brushless boat. I know guys I've been racing with for years that I wouldn't encourage to run 70 mph.

Sometimes I swear that the buffer of the Internet clouds peoples better judgement. On-line we'll spew out setups with no regard for where they're going to land. Boarders on irresponsible.

[6BOOST]

That was a great explanation 6boost!

6boost, why do you call yourself that? Do you have a boosted 6 cylinder? I do..

It's a very long story Jason but the general wash up of the explaination is yes lol. It started off as a number plate on my first boosted car about 13 years ago, which turned into my forum username as is common to use your vehicle number plate to do on automotive forums, then my business name and is now just ingrained in my life and who I am. Google 6boost turbo manifolds, I've never finished my website (always to busy) but you'll get the idea;-)

As far as recommending setups that are potentially dangerous TS, ultimately we have to assume the best of people. Hey he could drive like a mad man and do far more damage on his way home from the shops in his daily driven car, far more than a Rc boat, sure he has more experience driving a car, but the first time he ever drove it he didn't and still had the ability to do insurmountable damage with it. I've come to love OSE and it's many talented and information filled members, I've hit nearly 70mph in my first hour of RC boating with all the info on this site then nearly 80 in my rigger, we aren't all bad=) Hopefully Sk8 after the last 6-8 posts you feel everyone's love for the hobby and the desire to make sure you have a long life in FE boating, especially seeing as how your on a budget. We are all behind you, just wield the information at your own discretion, accidents happen to even the most experienced boaters, have a look at the "subbed 102mph mono thread", $2-3000 worth of damage in one crash, it's very easy at these speeds to break thing. Be sure to put up a build thread and let us all know how you go:-)

Regards, 6BOOST

[sk8onwater]

Thanks for the helpful info guys. The reason I had left boating before was that brushed electric was to slow and just not enjoyable. My gas car is a 60+ mph road car. I love it. We go to Lake of the Ozarks Shootout every summer and they have started doing a mini shootout which is no holds barred drag race. So that is my main purpose for that with a side of running it in the local pond an creek

[sundog]

Thanks for the helpful info guys. The reason I had left boating before was that brushed electric was to slow and just not enjoyable. My gas car is a 60+ mph road car. I love it. We go to Lake of the Ozarks Shootout every summer and they have started doing a mini shootout which is no holds barred drag race. So that is my main purpose for that with a side of running it in the local pond an creek

Yeah, I'm thinking of doing the Mini Shootout next year as well. The setup I suggested earlier is what I'll be running in my Genesis. Like Tony said it is a lightweight hull, and that can work for or against you. I'm hoping they will start the mini races earlier in the morning in future events, before the lake gets choppy. But I think the length, (low) weight and narrow beam of the Genesis will cut headwinds better and may be a winning combination at that SAW-esque event. We'll see!

[sk8onwater]

Cool. Maybe I'll see you down there. There are going to be three of us with similar boats.

[sk8onwater]

Cool. Maybe I'll see you down there. There are going to be three of us with similar boats. Should be a good time

[sk8onwater]

Sorry, drunk double posting

[twissted]

Here is my thoughts on the matter. get the 1717' it is easer to detune than it is to sqeeze power out of a motor. you can use smaller props and and lower voltage until the boat is at the point you want or you move on to another boat. If winter slows your build, it gives you time to bid on ebay for some great deals. You my want to look here as well. good deals can be had here as well.

[nobbiworld]

Twissted. Did you look at the date of this thread? Dead 2 years ago.