Blueprinting UL-1 Motor Wires

[properchopper]

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After having several UL-1 motors short out the wires where they enter the endbell ( due both to pushing the motor hard and the low-spec insulation these motors come with), I've taken to "blueprinting" these wires on my own motors. When Stephen gave me this previously run motor for the new Spec FE 30 I'm building for him, I went ahead and began the procedure. You can see in the photos that this motor was ready to go :flashfire: After removing the bullets, I slide 1/8" shrink all the way to the coils, and reinforce with another piece of shrink. " An ounce of prevention....." :wink:

[m4a1usr]

Looks good Tony. That guy was headed for a "show down". Polyolefin should work just fine.

John

[properchopper]

The insulation on the motor is stamped " 125 C ". That's 257 deg. F. I don't doubt that, given how hard some of us push these motors that that internal temperature
( not what gets measured with the temp gun on the can after retrieval and untaping) can reach these temps. While I'd like to see a higher (or more accurate) spec on the wire insulation and especially on the stator windings, these are good motors for the money and, realistically, were not likely intended to be pushed as hard as many of us do. Then again, the race goes on.....

[CHIEFY_44]

All i can say is thank you tony

[ray schrauwen]

Thanks Tony!

[jasoncyclone]

Thanks Tony, I will fix my UL1 motor tonight!!!!

[stadiumyamaha]

ive put new covering on my motor wires but never that far in. I will be now. Thanks for the pics showing how you do it

[Chilli]

Is this legal for NAMBA Spec Classes??

[properchopper]

Is this legal for NAMBA Spec Classes??

That's a good question. I'll check.

[Doug Smock]

Man I surprised to see this. Some of the "experts" say these little 50 amp motors will take 90 to 100 amps without damage.:olleyes::sarcasm1::wink:

Great idea Tony, I've done it myself on my O/B, because of the possible chafing at the end bell.

Don't let this give you a false sense of security guys. Remember, if you are heating up the motor leads like that, it is possible that there are ":flammes-09: spots" in the stator core that you can't see. Keep pushing and you'll find them.

Good luck,
Doug:tiphat:

[properchopper]

Man I surprised to see this. Some of the "experts" say these little 50 amp motors will take 90 to 100 amps without damage.:olleyes::sarcasm1::wink:

Great idea Tony, I've done it myself on my O/B, because of the possible chafing at the end bell.

Don't let this give you a false sense of security guys. Remember, if you are heating up the motor leads like that, it is possible that there are ":flammes-09: spots" in the stator core that you can't see. Keep pushing and you'll find them.

Good luck,
Doug:tiphat:

Very good point, Doug. Last weekend I had an AQ 1800 quit after some hard test runs on my tunnel. I removed the endbell and the wires entering the stator looked fine but I did the shrink thing anyway. Everything else looked good. Reassembled, bench tested with a 120A Turnigy; cog city & blew my extra cap. ( replaced cap & speedy survived).

What likely happened is that the laquer insulation somewhere in the stator core melted and caused the hidden, internal short. These motors are great when operating within their comfort zone, but won't survive too much internal overheating, and the only way to prevent this is to keep the setup within reason.

Mike raised an interesting point about spec legality. I know that its been an accepted practice up 'till now to replace the stock connectors with 5.5's, but going one step further by "blueprinting" the wires needs to be checked out. I will check it out now that spec ( or P-Ltd.) has changed from a club-level to a NAMBA class.

[Chilli]

I ususally don't stick my nose in NAMBA business Tony. I know the Spec classes are record trials eligible now and don't want anyone to find out the hard way. Some people might have a problem with opening up the end bell. In our district spec classes, we specifically permit any connector on the motor. Thats a great idea none the less.

Is the laquer insulation what causes the whispy oderless white smoke when a UL1 motor gets too hot? I was proped a little hot on one of my UL1 set ups. I would see just a bit of smoke at then end of a heat when I pulled the hatch off and the motor would be in the upper 140's. I dediced to kept the prop on and see how long she would last. She lasted about three race weekends before she died during a heat. It wasn't anything catastrophic. She just quit running during the race. By the time the heat was over, she cooled down where I could bring her in. Upon inspection I could smell the slight burnt electrical smell and see inside the motor that the windings were a little discolored. So I trashed her and proped down just a bit.

[properchopper]

I ususally don't stick my nose in NAMBA business Tony. I know the Spec classes are record trials eligible now and don't want anyone to find out the hard way. Some people might have a problem with opening up the end bell. In our district spec classes, we specifically permit any connector on the motor. Thats a great idea none the less.

Is the laquer insulation what causes the whispy oderless white smoke when a UL1 motor gets too hot? I was proped a little hot on one of my UL1 set ups. I would see just a bit of smoke at then end of a heat when I pulled the hatch off and the motor would be in the upper 140's. I dediced to kept the prop on and see how long she would last. She lasted about three race weekends before she died during a heat. It wasn't anything catastrophic. She just quit running during the race. By the time the heat was over, she cooled down where I could bring her in. Upon inspection I could smell the slight burnt electrical smell and see inside the motor that the windings were a little discolored. So I trashed her and proped down just a bit.

Mike, no prob, I'm glad you brought it up. Could be a "bone of contention" among the race crowd. I hope Brian and Darin weigh in - I respect their judgement and they had a lot to do with the birth of the spec phenomenon and rules.

I've had that "wispy smoke" before and chalked it up to lube smoke or bilge water boiling. Usually when the stator insulation melts it smells - you know that smell !

[Rumdog]

If it isnt legal to reinsulate your wires...... that make this sport kind of a rediculous joke. Really.

[Chilli]

It's just the nature of the class. Spec is a specialty class and specialty classes have funky rules. You should see what the rc car racers do in the spec classes. They are really hard core (sealed motors and motors that are handed out at the race).

[properchopper]

If it isnt legal to reinsulate your wires...... that make this sport kind of a rediculous joke. Really.

Really ? The spec (or P-Limited) classes specify certain motors. If, say, I was going for a 2-lap record at a NAMBA sanctioned race I'd know through testing what the most agressive prop I could run before melting the motor leads on a stock/spec motor. Then someone shows up with modded wires to allow a more agressive, faster prop. He goes faster and gets the record. The idea behind P-Ltd classes is to have motor parity, as best as possible.

In the now defunct LSO class, section 28/g/jjj/vi of the NAMBA rules state : " No modifications may be made to the motor. Except for normal wear, it must be run as shipped from the manufacturer."

In the Electric 1/10 Scale Unlimited Hydroplane class in NAMBA (which allows Himax HB3630-1500,Blackjack A3630-1500, or AQ 36/56), 28/C/iv/b states : "No modifications may be made to the motor. Except for normal wear, drive flats or keys,electrical connectors, and water cooling, it must be run as shipped from the manufacturer."

I don't have the rules for P-Limited motor specs but I suspect it will follow the 1/10 class specs.

I await further more learned input.

:hornets_nest:

{ Papa BB, If I screwed up here, I deserve a good spanking :moon:. I'll even wear my little boy's sailor suit when you do it. Really)

[CHIEFY_44]

Well if you used the same color heat shrink how will anyone know

[properchopper]

Well if you used the same color heat shrink how will anyone know

STEPHEN !! The point is not to break the rules. :Shame_on_You:

[Boaterguy]

So LSO doesn't allow water cooling or the addition of connectors? most motors come without connectors and are not water cooled.

[CHIEFY_44]

I understand that tony and im all for rules and will & do abide any rules, all I was pointing out was like every rule/law there is away to scheme or bend rules. The answer to one is aquacraft need to use better grade heat shrink, or make a ruling for a spec prop and have a specific timing everyone has to run, thats mpo anyways.
For the record I dont believe in cheating at anything and if namba or anyone turns round and says this is not allowed I will return my motor to aquacraft for it to be repaired, no biggie, but I thought the reason for spec class was to make it cheaper/easier for the beginer to race competively so adding some extra heat shrink to help stop motors burning up imo is no biggie, whats up people dont we want more people to join our great hobby or not, but like tony said in a earlir reply darin or someone needs to step in and sort this out ASAP.

[LarrysDrifter]

So LSO doesn't allow water cooling or the addition of connectors? most motors come without connectors and are not water cooled.

It allows for water cooling. These motors come in RTR boats that have cooling jackets on them stock.

[Boaterguy]

I see, it requires motors from RTR boats.

[Jedi Master]

ive put new covering on my motor wires but never that far in. I will be now. Thanks for the pics showing how you do it

+1. Good advice, thanks!!

[RandyatBBY]

It depends on the CD, If it is me I would say that the pictures tell the story! Maintenance to prevent future problems and in my mind acceptable.

[properchopper]

It depends on the CD, If it is me I would say that the pictures tell the story! Maintenance to prevent future problems and in my mind acceptable.

Randy, my fear is that reinforcing the insulation could allow the motor to better survive being pushed harder and be interpreted as creating an unfair competative advantage. No problem with sport running, but in spec racing all motors should have equal survival potential. I have a bad feeling that I goofed up here by illustrating a "mod" that very likely can be construed as outside the rules.

There was a very protracted and learned discussion regarding insuring parity in spec motors and the "teching" issue before spec was introduced as a NAMBA class. The overall consensus, as I recall, was that above all we must all be honest in conforming to the rules. I think that reinforcing the insulation opens the door to the teching thing, and I don't want to go against what's already been agreed on and start another reason for re-opening that discussion. I hope my flogging will be over quickly.

[ray schrauwen]

Or you are fixing a deign fault. Neu motors have chaged the way wires exit their motors because of past faults from wire vibration.

There is a point to which these motors fail that your mod will not help anyway.

[properchopper]

Or you are fixing a deign fault. Neu motors have chaged the way wires exit their motors because of past faults from wire vibration.

There is a point to which these motors fail that your mod will not help anyway.

Ray, you're on the money there from what I've experienced in toasting lots of spec motors. The stator windings will likely fail long before the lead wires, and the rotor will let loose before the leads as well.

[LuckyDuc]

I have added additional heat shrink tubing to my motor leads for 3 years now. I do this right after I solder new 5.5 bullet connectors on, and just cut the heat shrink long enough to cover the bullet and to extend into the end bell. It is quite easy to nick the OEM insulation and tear a hole in it. This is more of a general maintenance item IMHO. Worn spots can also develop quite easily on the insulation in out board applications too. I wouldn't worry too much about this violating the current rule set for P-Ltd in NAMBA.

[Doby]

Gotta love FE rules...ambiguity at its finest.

[egneg]

I have added additional heat shrink tubing to my motor leads for 3 years now. I do this right after I solder new 5.5 bullet connectors on, and just cut the heat shrink long enough to cover the bullet and to extend into the end bell. It is quite easy to nick the OEM insulation and tear a hole in it. This is more of a general maintenance item IMHO. Worn spots can also develop quite easily on the insulation in out board applications too. I wouldn't worry too much about this violating the current rule set for P-Ltd in NAMBA.

I have done this as well in my sport boats, but have not needed to in boats I raced as last year was my first year and our local IMPBA sanctioned club didn't have any races this year.

[lohring]

"The motors shall be used as shipped from the manufacturer, with the
exception of creating a drive shaft flat spot, adding water cooling, and
allowing the motor to be connected to the ESC by any means."

That's from the latest version of the NAMBA electric rules. I would think "any means" allows changes to the insulation as well as the connectors.

Lohring Miller

[Doby]

Based on the latest "rule" book on NAMBA's web site....only brushed motors are allowed for P Spec classes (unless they have changes hidden somewhere on the web site, but as this is the latest version they have linked to, it must be right:w00t:).... Everyone running brushless motors are breaking the rules!

They do make mention of brushless motors in the 1/10 scale section...

"Motor Specifications
(a) Power in this class shall be limited to a single HIMAX
HB3630-1500, BLACKJACK A3630-1500 or AQUACRAFT
36/56 (commonly referred to as SV27).
(b) No modifications may be made to the motor. Except for normal
wear, drive flats or keys, electrical connectors and water
cooling, it must be run as shipped from the manufacturer.
(c) Power Limits: 10.1 to 15 Volts nominal, any chemistry.
Maximum of 2 packs in parallel. Maximum total capacity shall....."

subsection b is interesting as it mentions "wear" but doesn't define what it is...can it be preventive, like the insulation on the wires?? Who knows..It makes sense that it would cover that as being OK.

[Doby]

IMPBA rule book says even less.


So brushless motors and the amount of "blueprinting" that can be done to them is obviously up to the individual clubs.

Now before anybody jumps on me about there being more "rules" elsewhere on the web pages ("Roostertails" etc..) for the two organizations...I am looking at the rule books that they both currently link to on their home pages...as this is where anyone starting out to get some basic information would obviously look at.

[T.S.Davis]

First of all "hidden"?
Can we please think before we post. For what possible purpose?

Second, there is/was no limited spec power parameters until they were passed 5-11-11. I think that was the date at least. Click on NEWS on the NAMBA website and it's there. I don't believe it's been incorporated into the base document. SOP for our hobby. IMPBA's rule book hasn't been updated since 1974 or some such lunacy. You can find their FE rules in a 2008 edition of the Roostertail. No P Spec if I remember correctly.

As for the insulation......it's not a addressed. I do have an opinion though. I think that it's chicken turds for anyone to object to it. Wish I had thought of it earlier

[Chilli]

I have added additional heat shrink tubing to my motor leads for 3 years now. I do this right after I solder new 5.5 bullet connectors on, and just cut the heat shrink long enough to cover the bullet and to extend into the end bell. It is quite easy to nick the OEM insulation and tear a hole in it. This is more of a general maintenance item IMHO. Worn spots can also develop quite easily on the insulation in out board applications too. I wouldn't worry too much about this violating the current rule set for P-Ltd in NAMBA.

Sean,

For club and district races, I wouldnt worry too much about it either. But if you take the time and effort to run record trials in these classes which Tony does, it makes a tremendous difference.

Dispite everyone's interpretation of the rules, there is only one person who's opinion means anything and thats the NAMBA FE Director.

[Doby]

First of all "hidden"?
Can we please think before we post. For what possible purpose?

Second, there is/was no limited spec power parameters until they were passed 5-11-11. I think that was the date at least. Click on NEWS on the NAMBA website and it's there. I don't believe it's been incorporated into the base document. SOP for our hobby. IMPBA's rule book hasn't been updated since 1974 or some such lunacy. You can find their FE rules in a 2008 edition of the Roostertail. No P Spec if I remember correctly.

As for the insulation......it's not a addressed. I do have an opinion though. I think that it's chicken turds for anyone to object to it. Wish I had thought of it earlier


Thanks Terry;

You just confirmed my point....these things aren't in the current rule books and if you don't know where to look for it, its not easily found.

[RandyatBBY]

If the guys are that up tight then we will have hand out motors and props, Other wise be cool. I will not stress over little bull s#@^. never more.

[Doug Smock]

:blink::blink::zip-up::wink:

[CHIEFY_44]

Like I said earlier spec classes I thought were to bring more people into our hobby cheaply as to run a full blown sport boat u fork out big $$ to build and even more to keep the thing going, I really think doing something like this should not be a problem all people are doing is preventing a burn out in turn saving money, not everyone can afford to carry 2 or 3 spare. If they want to be picky then yeah hand out motors/props could be the way to go but its going to be more work policing that choice, dont think officals will want the extra load.

[DPeterson]

I'll race ya Tony! You can put the shrink tube any where you would like. I find it hard to comprehend that shrink tube will give someone a performance advantage.

With that said, 2 races ago I lost a very good esc (yge) due to my cooling tube coming off and I ran the entire race with no cooling. Took out the esc and the motor. This esc and motor combo has race proven reliability for 3 years. My only esc back up was a Hydra 240. Put the Hydra in for the next race and burnt 2 motors right where the wires enter the end bell. Come to find out the timing was too far advanced on the Hydra for the UL1 motor. Finally put the timing down to normal and everything is fine. Anyway besides the motor wires shorting out, the windings also took a beating.

So to me replacing the shrink tube is going to be more of a feel good thing than a performance fix or a preventative measure. I just got 4 UL1 motors prepped for my spare parts box. Plugs only - no shrink. Keep your esc timing calm, keep your motors cool, watch your run times, run the right prop and have fun.

Doug

[egneg]

In IMPBA district 12 not just the motors but the esc's are spec'ed as well - so it would be motors, esc's, and props! I think this could easily be handled at the district level just as the current FE rules are.

Wait a minute, in the March 2010 Roostertails under district 12 reports the FE rules state that any esc can be used. Is there a newer version in print somewhere? I will have to check with the district 12 FE Director.

[properchopper]

I'll race ya Tony! You can put the shrink tube any where you would like. I find it hard to comprehend that shrink tube will give someone a performance advantage.

With that said, 2 races ago I lost a very good esc (yge) due to my cooling tube coming off and I ran the entire race with no cooling. Took out the esc and the motor. This esc and motor combo has race proven reliability for 3 years. My only esc back up was a Hydra 240. Put the Hydra in for the next race and burnt 2 motors right where the wires enter the end bell. Come to find out the timing was too far advanced on the Hydra for the UL1 motor. Finally put the timing down to normal and everything is fine. Anyway besides the motor wires shorting out, the windings also took a beating.

So to me replacing the shrink tube is going to be more of a feel good thing than a performance fix or a preventative measure. I just got 4 UL1 motors prepped for my spare parts box. Plugs only - no shrink. Keep your esc timing calm, keep your motors cool, watch your run times, run the right prop and have fun.

Doug

See Ya' in AZ, Bro !

[Doug Smock]

In IMPBA district 12 not just the motors but the esc's are spec'ed as well - so it would be motors, esc's, and props! I think this could easily be handled at the district level just as the current FE rules are.

Wait a minute, in the March 2010 Roostertails under district 12 reports the FE rules state that any esc can be used. Is there a newer version in print somewhere? I will have to check with the district 12 FE Director.

http://impba.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=153&func=view&catid=17&id=65
D.
PS LOL Mr.P.

[Chilli]

In IMPBA district 12 not just the motors but the esc's are spec'ed as well - so it would be motors, esc's, and props! I think this could easily be handled at the district level just as the current FE rules are.

Wait a minute, in the March 2010 Roostertails under district 12 reports the FE rules state that any esc can be used. Is there a newer version in print somewhere? I will have to check with the district 12 FE Director.

The rules posted in the Roostertails was my original proposal. Don posted it by accident instead of the final draft. No biggie. They were adjusted after the district meeting and the correct version is in the link Doug provided.

The prop "parity rule" issue has only been in play in the B/P Mono class where the P motors can be much more powerful than "B" nitro motors. This year we added a Open FE mono and Open FE hydro class. So anyone that does not want to run under the nitro parity rules or spec rules can run what they want.

If anyone wants to discuss this any further, we can start another thread.

[D. Newland]

...

Dispite everyone's interpretation of the rules, there is only one person who's opinion means anything and thats the NAMBA FE Director.

Not really. Randy has it right. The CD makes the call with items like this, typically when faced with a protest. However, I have been called from time to time to help figure stuff like this out, and since I wrote this particular section of the P-Ltd rule, I'm sure I'd get a phone call if this was called into question.

But I must say, please have some perspective with this. I just got back from Justin Hill's funeral and that guy had more perspective with this hobby than anyone I know.

The P-Ltd NAMBA Rules are for NAMBA sanctioned events and Lohring posted the wording above. They state that the motor must be run as shipped from the manufacturer, with exeptions for flat spot, water cooling and connecting it to the ESC.

As Dick Crowe once said, "stay out of the grey". You say you're doing this to make the motor more reliable. Your opponent says you're doing it to push the motor harder. Whether you like it or not, you are entering the grey, which means a potential protest.

You're either running the motor as shipped from the manfacturer...or you're not. It's that simple. Most of you don't know Justin Hill...but if you've read anything on the boards about him...what do you think he would do in this case?

And that is as specific as I'm going to get on this topic. If you want me to get more specific, get out to a NAMBA sanctioned race and get protested. You just may learn at that time where I stand on this...assuming the CD needs my help.

[bbill1]

I have been sitting back watching this thread go south all day. Here's my opinion, for what it's worth.

I see nothing wrong with shrinking the wires to protect them from failure. I see nothing in the rules that state that cheap/poor materials must be allowed to fail. Why say you can change the connectors then have a hard on about shrinking the wires? If I change the connectors does it say how long the shrink must be? Can I re-shrink at all? I thought this was supposed to help the 'newbie' get into the hobby without blowing a ton of cash. Now he has to watch his motor smoke cause someone griped about some shrink?

Get real.

Protest me for having shrink on my motor, I'll take my ball and go home and you'll never see me at your pond again. Do it to enough people and you will start to wonder why nobody show's for your races.

You want to get picky about the rules in Namba? Start calling foul about 'stock' O.S.'s in the stock tunnel class. That'll blow the hair back on a few people.

Oh, and by the way...

Not trying to start up the ESC deal again but, If you burned the wires after going to a hotter esc what does that tell ya? Maybe there IS something more to the story than just cost ya think?

Hmmm....

Toy frikkin' boats people.

/B

[egneg]

Thanks Guys! I was sure this had been addressed and I had read it but couldn't find it. I think this is the crux of the confusion (sounds good doesn't it) the rules are spread all over the place. You would think there would be a way to go back and delete older versions or at least to add an addendum stating that this set of rules was no longer valid and include a link to the latest revisions. I think it would be easy to have these rules added to the IMPBA district 12 website and kept up to date but when I go to the news section the latest news is from 2/27/2010.

[Chilli]

Okay guys, I'm going to try this one more time. Tony runs record trials where the rules are scrutinized more than heat racing. How serious? In the IMPBA, any internal combustion motor that breaks a record in a stock class gets tech'ed and returned to it's owner as a bag of parts in a zip lock bag. We also take a voltage reading of all FE boats after a record run to verify the boat is within the voltage parameters of the class it is entered in. The intention of my post is to warn Tony of the possibility of his modification being protested, deemed illegal at a trials event and all his efforts going to waste. That's all! Tony gets it so that's cool.

That being said, I can't imagine anyone having their chops busted for Tony's mod in a club or district race. So go run some boats and have fun!

Jeeesh.... I'm done with this thread.

Next time I'll just PM you Tony.

[DPeterson]

bbill1

Not trying to start up the ESC deal again but, If you burned the wires after going to a hotter esc what does that tell ya? Maybe there IS something more to the story than just cost ya think?

I assume this is in response to my post. First of all the Hydra 240 is not a "hotter" esc than a yge 120. My post intent was to explain that (1) when the motors are pushed past their limit it is not only the wires that lead to the windings that short out but the windings themselves suffer greatly. This IMO makes any shrink tube modification useless. (2) I have found repeatidly that the UL1 motors do not like advanced timing. This last occurance was stupid on my part as I did not know the timing on the back up Hydra that I used. It cost me 2 motors before my brain kicked in.

Like I said I will race anybody, anywhere and with shrink tube anywhere they want to put it. The P-Limited classes have been and will continue to be great for the sport. P-Limited classes for records will continue to create animosity among a small group of RC enthusiast. Good luck with that!

Staying away from the grey area - Doug

[bbill1]

I was actually pointing more to the fact that with adjustable timing etc... , that the newbie could get into more trouble than if he had a plug and play esc like the AQ. And the seasoned racer would try to use it to his advantage (whether that advantage is real or imaginary), bypassing the entire reason the class is called 'limited' in the first place.

[properchopper]

OK, I opened a "can of worms" here without thinking it through, so I'm eatin' worms for dinner tonight.

A few thoughts/responses :

#1 : All my P-Ltd records were set with just two motors. Neither of them were "modified". Three records were set with a brand new motor just installed the night before the race which was switched between boats. I did have 5.5's installed with just enough shrink to cover the bullets. The tunnel record was set with an older motor, un "shrink-modified" It burned the stator a few weeks later.

#2 : Upon current re-thinking, I believe the rule ( to paraphrase) "motors must be run as shipped from the manufacturer" denies the shrink-mod. I'll act accordingly.

#3 : I've been competing in spec from the very start. Lots of heats. I lunched two motors in all that time, one from a burnt stator and one from a cracked rotor, never from melted wire insulation.

#4 : I think the stock UL-1 SC is a great choice. I have tried pushing the timing with other SC's and it eats motors. ( see #3 above)

#4 : Spec racing, as it exists today is not exactly "entry level". Competitive boats are rarely the rtr's that would ease new blood into the racing game as was initially envisioned. Stock rtr classes or classes like the IROC Vac-U-Pickles can still offer this. There's been many SV-27 only races that were successfull. I'd buy a rtr immediately if there was a "one design class" and have more racing fun, which is what I'm all about.

#5 : Doug P has impeccably prepared boats and is a top driver. Therefore when I compete with him he must wear a blindfold.

Thanks to everyone here for sharing their thoughts. There's something that I've been working on that's sat in my kitchen now for ten days that needs to be mated with something in my garage so I'll see Ya' soon .

58822

Tony/Properchopper :tiphat:

p.s. : The worms were rather tasty when served with flava beans and a mild Chianti.

[longballlumber]

#4 : Spec racing, as it exists today is not exactly "entry level". Competitive boats are rarely the rtr's that would ease new blood into the racing game as was initially envisioned. Stock rtr classes or classes like the IROC Vac-U-Pickles can still offer this. There's been many SV-27 only races that were successfull. I'd buy a rtr immediately if there was a "one design class" and have more racing fun, which is what I'm all about.

Tony/Properchopper :tiphat:


I would support this idea of spec/IROC racing type of mentality 100%!!!! Same hull, same motor, same controller, and same prop. Sign me up. I feel this will also teach new racers what makes a boat better/faster rather than throwing a new motor and increasing the voltage... Just my $.02

At any rate, this is a GREAT comment Tony!

Later,
Mike Ball

[G-UNIT]

Sorry I must be alittle off here on this but what is ment by blue printing, it just documenting what mods you did?
I thought blueprinting was actually drawing a blue print with demensions and specs ect ect...
please fill me in so I don't sound stupid when talking about this, THANKS.
G.

[properchopper]

Sorry I must be alittle off here on this but what is ment by blue printing, it just documenting what mods you did?
I thought blueprinting was actually drawing a blue print with demensions and specs ect ect...
please fill me in so I don't sound stupid when talking about this, THANKS.
G.

The term 'blueprinting" as used here is a colloquial term referring to, in the literal sense, adjusting/returning an item to it's intended design specifications often illustrated by a blueprint as you described. Mass produced items often stray from these specifications as machining/production tolerances change over time. My use of the term blueprinting is technically incorrect - my bad - I could have used a better word to describe what I did.

[G-UNIT]

I asked this question just alittle while ago but I don't see it now so i'll ask again.
What do you mean by blueprinting, I alway thought it was actually drawing a blueprint with demensinns ect..
or in the rc world is it just documenting mods.

[properchopper]

I would support this idea of spec/IROC racing type of mentality 100%!!!! Same hull, same motor, same controller, and same prop. Sign me up.

I feel this will also teach new racers what makes a boat better/faster rather than throwing a new motor and increasing the voltage... Just my $.02

At any rate, this is a GREAT comment Tony!

Later,
Mike Ball

Mike there's an ENORMOUS amount of wisdom in that one simple statement. Rather than joining the ZSP/WTS? club {ZoomSplashPlop/What'sThatSmell?}, learning the art of fine tuning a boat to go six laps on the 1/6 mile would definitely create much more all-around satisfaction with our "thing" in the long run. And as long as I'm on the soapbox, I'll say that the recent proliferation of decent (but mildly tuned) rtr's is a double edged sword : It certainly allows beginning boaters to painlessly avail themselves to the fray, but prevents in some way learning the skills in scratch building or rigging and tuning a bare hull. I guess it's all good. But heck yeah, I'd love to compete in a "stock rtr" class. There's certainly a good selection of these boats now being offered. Imagine six MC's, Stillettos, or Impulses battling it out on the course. Yum !!

[ray schrauwen]

I would support this idea of spec/IROC racing type of mentality 100%!!!! Same hull, same motor, same controller, and same prop. Sign me up. I feel this will also teach new racers what makes a boat better/faster rather than throwing a new motor and increasing the voltage... Just my $.02

At any rate, this is a GREAT comment Tony!

Later,
Mike Ball

I have been chomping at the bit to get IROC style racing up here in our club but, they whine, & whine...

[Doby]

Really??

[Doug Smock]

We all run the same equipment in every FE class in Atl. The hulls vary in some classes but the motors, ESCs, and even props are the same for the most part.

We all agreed to keep it this way. It keeps the racing tight and the wallet in your back pocket where it belongs.
It works for us.
Doug

[ray schrauwen]

Really??

Where have you been? I've been trying to run a class with spec'd props, motors etc forever! Everyone groaned, plastic props, UUUUGH!!

Graupner makes CARBON props that run very well on spec motors. You know, you use them all the time.

Maybe with some older blood out of the clubs here we can get such a class.

I have a boat ready for such a class.

[Doby]

Whtchya got Ray?...In the three years with you guys, I never heard a peep...

I like the Graupner props for general bashing around the ponds.

Lets all order some boats for London!

[bbill1]

We all run the same equipment in every FE class in Atl. The hulls vary in some classes but the motors, ESCs, and even props are the same for the most part.

We all agreed to keep it this way. It keeps the racing tight and the wallet in your back pocket where it belongs.
It works for us.
Doug

I think your just banging your head against a brick wall Doug. They can't see the forest for the trees. How can they get everyone to run the same hull/motor/esc/prop combo when you can't even get everyone to agree on a speedy.

In a collective, it's all about compromise. No one likes all the parts, but at least you can agree that it's the fairest solution of all.

You guys act like you want to have a 100% spec'd class but won't even accept a 50% spec'd class that has been suggested.

And please don't bring up the cost thing again cause if $30 makes the difference then maybe you shouldn't be running anyway. You can also get a cheaper 60 amp speedy as well. So both points are moot.

I just don't get it...

[Doug Smock]

I think your just banging your head against a brick wall Doug.
Bill I'm not really talking to the guys that are posting on this thread or the many threads like it on this and other forums. That ship has sailed.LOL
I'm talking to the guys that are reading the threads!!!!:biggrin::wink:

Doug:tiphat:

[T.S.Davis]

The CD makes the call with items like this, typically when faced with a protest.

Come on Dave, I know you have a book. The CD does not make the call on a protest. He's one of a 3 person committee. Hopefully they can read and wont decide what was "meant" by the rules.

Chairmen also don't have the authority to interpret the rules.....even though you wrote them. Randy had a boat disqualified from 2500 miles away by a chairman that wasn't at the race and never saw the boat in person. Many moons ago. Wasn't even for a rule violation if I remember correctly. Something like "wasn't in the spirit of the class". Nutty. It was wrong then and there's still no provision for chair interpretations in the rule book.

I submitted that latest set and have no power over their meaning either. The words mean...........what the words mean. The 10th guys discovered a flaw in the wording for scale regarding the turn fins. They knew what they meant when they wrote it but it didn't make it to print. They didn't protest it with claims of "intent". They fixed it with words in the book. If I had known this would come up I would have fixed it with words before I sent it to D2 to make sure there were no doubts.

The wire covering on some of these motors is crap. What if the wire wrapping comes off the wires? Should I fix it? Have to run the motor with no shrink I suppose. Another scenario. Flimsy wires with great big giant connectors. Them things bounce all over the place if you don't secure them. Rubs through the shrink. bbbzshtt. I've lost motors two ways. Wire wrap right where the wire touchs the endbell wears out or I throw a magnet. That's it. Throwing magnets takes some serious overpropping BTW.

[MarkF]

Ok Here is my 2c. First off I dont think anybody should start a thread or recomend taking off the endbell of a speced motor. Taking the endbell of any speced motor in any racing form is never allowed.
I saw the way these things were shrinked using only one piece of shrink tubbing for all three wires. You can cut this shrink off with an exacto blade no problem.
Second, if your at a 2 lap or national event and you get beat by a guy who put new shrink on his motor leads then guess what? You didn't get beat because he put New Shrink Wrap on his Motor. You got beat because he drove better than you or he set his boat up better than you or he got lucky or so on and so on. Saying you can't put new shrink wrap on a motor because its not in the rule book is just ridiculous. I can't even believe this is even being quetioned.

Mark

[Doug Smock]

Good luck fellas..................

[siberianhusky]

"The motors shall be used as shipped from the manufacturer, with the
exception of creating a drive shaft flat spot, adding water cooling, and
allowing the motor to be connected to the ESC by any means."
So skip the bullets and solder the motor and esc wires together and use long heatshrink!
Can the length of heashrink over a connection be protested?
That wording is open to some creative interpretation, nothing in the rules states you can't open the motor...
It's up to the rule makers to decide if something like this is a performance improvement or preventative maintenance. Then it's up to the racers to find a new way to bend the new rules. Isn't that the way racin' has always worked?
You do have to admit from a racing standpoint these are a pretty loose set of rules for "spec racing". Take a look at some of the SCCA class rules!

[Doby]

Good luck fellas..................

Hey,,where did Aerosmith go???

[T.S.Davis]

All of the motors that come in the RTR offerings we are getting the motors from have water jackets from the manufacturer. One could argue that the rule contradicts itself. Why would we add watercooling to motors "manufactured" with it? The motors we buy are replacement motors. To comply with the "as shipped" stipulation we should be running only the jackets that come with RTR. A Kintec will have better flow. The AQ that comes with Motley is much much better than the original UL jacket.

I don't really feel this way. I'm only pointing out how ridiculous the notion is that we're all somehow exempt. We all try to find a little bit better way to keep our stuff running.

[Doby]

This whole tread discussion is Tony's fault...If he hadn't tried to be helpful then we wouldn't all be discussing this.....Way to go man.:wink:

[MarkF]

Poor Tony, try to do something helpfull and look what happens. While were on the subject, I like to oil my bearings but it doesn't say I can in the rules. Am I going to get disqualified if someone sees me oil my bearings before a heat and they protest me Mr. C D?
OK I'm done.

Mark

[1truckerdan]

Well....... It sounds like "congress in session"
The fact is that the " wire insulation mod" will NOT change the performance OUTPUT of the spec motor....all it is does is keep the boater from having an added cost for replacing a motor (and possibly an ESC rx or servo)for a "shorted out " motor wire.
I thought that this "spec" class was to make it more" affordable " for the masses that want to race.
Just my 2cents
Daniel

[CHIEFY_44]

I have to agree with mark last post, all tony was trying to do was to be helpful, save people some aggrevation and some $$, nevermind tony

[Doug Smock]

Guys don't make this harder than it is.
These motors are still teched by visual means, even for records right?
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?25636-2-New-Heat-Racing-records-set-at-District-8-Race-May-28-2011
It seems to me, you just need to get the "inspectors" involved, and get a clear description of what a "Limited" motor "looks like". You don't have to call the description rules necessarily, call it anything.
Then you just need a few copys of the discription of the limited motors to give to future inspectors. Piece of cake fellas!!!!
FWIW Tony's example "looks" to me like a limited motor that has some additional heat shrink. I give it two:thumbup1:

See ya at the pond!!!:tiphat:

[properchopper]

Mirriam-Webster defines FORUM as : " A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged"

We've certainly done this here, and I'm glad it goes on. Whatever conclusions can be drawn we walk away better informed and our "thing" gets better.

Personally, I agree with Mark. Skill and well balanced setups will trump wire shrink on the playing field. But still we must adhere to the rules and hope they are clear. While set in place with the best intentions and a trueness of heart, conflicts in interpretation and new situations arise which [I]may[I] require a second look. (The U.S. Constitution has many ammendments.)

To set the record straight (is there a pun here?), I "blueprint" my wires simply to prevent long-term degradation, NOT to allow my setups to be capable of more winning performance. I doubt that anyone else does this to go faster either.
The motor I did this to in the picture is Stephen's used motor which needed it to allow to be used for his spec rig without an inevitable shorting, not to allow for a more agressive setup.

To reiterate, my recent records were set with non-blueprinted wire motors ( do I really have to defend myself? I hope not). Actually, since there was no previous records to beat, I ran those classes (without any hyper-agressive setups) simply to fill up a blank spot on my wall and to allow the PNW guys to come down and have a good laugh at me while killing my times (all in good spirit of course).

So here's another confessional spice to liven up the Chili ( You know I Love Ya, Bro - couldn't resist) :

I HAVE occasionally run small fans blowing on my spec motors, especially for 4.5 min offshore setups. No mention of these in the rulz. Just so you know, my thusly equipped offshore rig was so underpropped last race in AZ to keep temps down that my finishes sucked. I once tried pushing the timing on a P-Ltd. Sport Hydro setup and employed a fan. Both the motor, SC, AND fan went to barbeque heaven on the mill. I'll say it again : the stock AQ speedy works just great with factory pre-set timing.

ATBE ( a new acronym? - "All Things Being Equal"), I'm concentrating on balancing my setups for performance and longivity and steering around the dead boats and turtles.

And that's it for now :Peace_Sign:

Tony

[Doby]

I wonder if the color of the heatshrink helps?

I've heard blue is faster than red.

[properchopper]

I wonder if the color of the heatshrink helps?

I've heard blue is faster than red.

SHsssss... I thought we were going to keep that a secret !!

[DPeterson]

Well - I just cut the small black over-shrink off the motor wires from an old and very used UL1 motor. I could clearly see where the tight over-shrink was squeezing the 3 wires together during heat occurances, was eventually going to lead to shorting out the motor. I will now be removing the black over-shrink from the 3 wires on all my UL1 motors and putting a dab of silicon in this location to keep the 3 wires seperated and from rubbing on the can opening.

I was warned about this issue during my last race at Michigan but it didn't really sink in until this thread. Thanks to Tony and all the contributors for bringing this issue up. Our motors will now run longer with these simple preventative measures.

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

THRUST BEARINGS! Anybody got one?

Incidentally, when I needed to run a UL motor on a Hydra120 I contacted Grim to find out what the timing is on the stocker. I run one degree less because I'm not confident that the two manufacturers are identical. The AQ is metric. HAHAHA. Works okay.

[DPeterson]

Chille and D,Smock

Just kind of curious. Just what is your interest in this subject? You both are IMPBA members and not NAMBA members. IMPBA currently has no P-Limited rules on the books. You have no dog in this fight. The 2011 NAMBA Nats was in your back yard and neither of you attended. Please tell me you are not "popcorn posters"!

What we are discussing here are preventative measures to take to lengthen the life of the spec motors allowed in the NAMBA P-Limited classes. This seems to be consistent with the goal of the class - entry and affordable.

I am a member of both organizations and travel extensively to both venues to race. Therefore I consider myself to have a large dog in this fight.

Doug

[Chilli]

My only intent was to warn Tony that someone may question the legality of his mod in a trials event. That's all. Despite all the ridiculous comments about bullet connectors, heat shrink and cooling jackets, you won't find any opinion by me on in this thread because I am not a NAMBA member so it's not my place.

Tony stated he doesn't do the mods on his trials boats so the point is mute anyway.

I did find some useful comments on this thread that will be helpful when the IMPBA composes its own set of Spec ("limited" if Smock has his way:tongue:) rules in the future.

Have a safe holiday weekend folks.

[DPeterson]

This whole Spec P-Limited thing baffles me. The P-Limted classes are an evolution of LSH and LSO. The only thing speced was the motor. Nobody gave a hoot about the esc, the connectors, the wires or the shrink wrap. Now it seems there are a hand full of guy's that think a lawyer should get involved and write up a 100 page document.

Fellas - go racing with your friends. It will be OK.

Doug

[bbill1]

Doug

I am a Namba as well as Impba member and therefore have a vested interest as well. But I don't see how calling out Smock has anything to do with the issue. All he did was merely point out the once you went to a 240 esc, you popped two wires on your motor. This was nothing more than noting that theoretically, the AQ motor can ask for more than it is capable of and a larger speedy will oblige until something gives. He supported the idea of shrinking the wires in his first post on the subject.

Actually, he entire question regarding shrink on the motor is moot because the connectors are allowed to be changed. At that point, shrink can obviously be applied regardless of the application being for heat racing or trials. Simply shrink the wires all the way down. There is no restriction in the rules regarding shrink at all, but surely you can shrink the new connectors.

Common sense is all that is required to come to that conclusion.

[Doug Smock]

Chille and D,Smock

Just kind of curious. Just what is your interest in this subject? You both are IMPBA members and not NAMBA members.
Doug


Mirriam-Webster defines FORUM as : " A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged"
Tony

Dang Doug you're still chewing on this?:confused2:

Drive on sir, like you said, it's going to be ok!!
I do want to thank everyone for the friendly discussion, lots of good information here.:wink:
Have a great weekend!
D.

[Doug Smock]

Doug

I am a Namba as well as Impba member and therefore have a vested interest as well. But I don't see how calling out Smock has anything to do with the issue. All he did was merely point out the once you went to a 240 esc, you popped two wires on your motor.

Bill I don't recall mentioning the ESC thing at all in this thread, nor did I mention Mr.Peterson smoking his equipment. But since you brought it up, you would think that with his extensive travelling to races etc., those kind of mistakes would be a thing of the past. Obviously the timing thing is much easier for rookies.:wink:
Looking back I think all of my posts,(and Chilli's) were of a positive nature.
I think Doug must not lke the way we comb our hair.:laugh:
Have a good one fellas!!!
Doug S.

[DPeterson]

bbill1, Hard to tell how much experience a guy has on this forum. I did not smoke 2 motors due to switching from a yge to a hydra. It was the advanced timing that smoked the motors. The esc feeds the motor what the motor asks for. Again - the UL1 motor does not like advanced timing. It was definetly a rookie mistake on my part and very stupid of me.

Doug, I didn't know you had hair. :) My anguish is not of a personal nature. It is with rules. Over the last 10 years I have rebuilt my race fleet 3-4 times chasing technology and the rules that followed. A couple of rules that I consider to have been major mistakes (2P and length limits) has takin us into the area of running mainly P-Limited classes. OK - Fine, lets play with weak, cheap and badly engineered Chinese equipment. OK - Fine, we have rules that are working. So anytime, rules or issues are being discussed that may effect my racing and or my race equipment I am going to get a little cranky. I will not be re-building a race fleet again.

Got 3 big race venues this month. See you there.

Doug

[bbill1]

bbill1, Hard to tell how much experience a guy has on this forum. I did not smoke 2 motors due to switching from a yge to a hydra. It was the advanced timing that smoked the motors. The esc feeds the motor what the motor asks for. Again - the UL1 motor does not like advanced timing. It was definetly a rookie mistake on my part and very stupid of me.


Doug

Never said you smoked two motors, I repeated that you stated you burnt two wires on a motor. The point is (which is kinda off topic) that if the AQ speedy was used instead of the Hydra 240, the timing issue would never have come up. Thus you would not have burnt the motor.

I consider the P-Spec tunnel class a jump off for nitro tunnel heads like myself. Considering that, the Namba rules of allowing any esc in P-Spec tunnel can potentially cause a person new to FE to burn up equipment due to the lack of knowledge. I'm kinda playing both sides of the fence here because although I use an AQ speedy, I do believe that people run a 120 speedy in the p-spec classes simply because they believe it gives them an edge. Personally, if you want to run a different esc go right ahead. Cause all I wanna do is race. Since I am a Namba and Impba member, It made more sense for me to use the AQ esc so I could run anywhere and be legal.

As far as experience, I have only been into the FE thing for about 8-10 months. Racing nitro boats, 6 years. But six years here in Fl. is like 10-15 anywhere else. You will not find a more densely packed group of world-class racers anywhere else on the planet than here in Fl. On any given one day race here, you could be stacked up against multiple us1, and world record holders.

And That could be the easy heat.

[DPeterson]

OK - good to know where your coming from Bill. Wish I had got to Florida for the 2011 Nats. Schedule did not work for me.

Here is my take on why new guy's will burn their equipment in order of cause. 1. Running their boat way too long. 2. Over-proping 3. Running the boat wet 4. Cooling system not working. 5. ESC timing. These are the causes I have seen the last few years for equipment burning. Sure - specing the esc may save number 5 a couple of times. How do we save number 1 through 4?

Later - Doug

[Doug Smock]

Doug, I didn't know you had hair. :) My anguish is not of a personal nature. It is with rules.

Doug
Oh yeah I still have hair.LOL
I understand Doug, no doubt about that.
One more oval race and two Time Trials left for me this year.
Good luck at the races!!
Smock
PS The answer for us on 1-4 had been education. Still zero failures to date.

[DPeterson]

Doug - We really do need to get together and race sometime. These thread discussions just don't cut it. :)


PS The answer for us on 1-4 had been education. Still zero failures to date.

Fair to say then that education also takes care of number 5.

Doug

[Doug Smock]

Fair to say then that education also takes care of number 5.


Well...............:just-kidding::wink:

I'll make it up there one of these days Doug. I'd like to meet all of you guys!!
Have a great weekend!
Doug:beerchug:

[line6]

Tony. This is a great idea im glad it was posted for everyone to see. I have lost one UL1 motor to this exact issue about two years ago. sense then i have been putting the extra shrink on and haven't had a failure sense.. good job for bring it to everyone's attention :tiphat:

Jason Sims

[properchopper]

Tony. This is a great idea im glad it was posted for everyone to see. I have lost one UL1 motor to this exact issue about two years ago. sense then i have been putting the extra shrink on and haven't had a failure sense.. good job for bring it to everyone's attention
Jason Sims

No prob, Jason, 'tho a bit of a kerfuffle resulted, and grew into somewhat of a granfalloon. :olleyes:

[Steven Vaccaro]

Am I missing something? Not commenting on where this fits in with the namba rules. But, You can put all the insulation you want around a single wire, if the wire gets hot enough this is not going to stop the actual wire coating from burning up. And if it does, the individual strands of that single wire will then touch and cause resistance and a junk motor.

[properchopper]

Am I missing something? Not commenting on where this fits in with the namba rules. But, You can put all the insulation you want around a single wire, if the wire gets hot enough this is not going to stop the actual wire coating from burning up. And if it does, the individual strands of that single wire will then touch and cause resistance and a junk motor.

True, and that's what causes stator failure. Thing is, it seems that the outer insulation gets degraded at a lower temp than the wire coating and that's all my mod was intended to prevent. At least that's the theory. :confused2:

[Boaterguy]

Am I missing something? Not commenting on where this fits in with the namba rules. But, You can put all the insulation you want around a single wire, if the wire gets hot enough this is not going to stop the actual wire coating from burning up. And if it does, the individual strands of that single wire will then touch and cause resistance and a junk motor.
Aren't the individual strands touching inside the wire anyways? how would it cause resistance if they touch?

[line6]

Am I missing something? Not commenting on where this fits in with the namba rules. But, You can put all the insulation you want around a single wire, if the wire gets hot enough this is not going to stop the actual wire coating from burning up. And if it does, the individual strands of that single wire will then touch and cause resistance and a junk motor.

Steven in my case it failed simply from taking the battery in and out and having to move the wires. it just wore a hole over time.

Jason Sims

[Doug Smock]

Aren't the individual strands touching inside the wire anyways? how would it cause resistance if they touch?

No sir, they are coated in a varnish. http://www.harmanbawa.com/
I believe what Steven is referring to is the resistance increasing in the wire strands as they degrade while they burn. When you finally burn through the varnish what you have is a "short" ( line to line or line(s)) to ground (motor can) until it "opens" or is de-energized. (Read de solder connectors or burns the control)
Like Jason said, his failure was fatigue related and is why I took this precaution on my O/B motor.
Doug

[Boaterguy]

I though you meant inside the wires not inside the coils, I understand

[Greg Schweers]

Here's my take on this: Last year I didn't have any motor failures (hydro, tunnel, rigger).
The first race this year, 3rd heat of P-Hydro - motor failure, wires burnt coming out of the motor. 3rd heat of rigger - exact same thing. Replaced motors, did the shrink-wrap, and separated wires.
Next race (2 weeks later), 3rd heat P-Hydro - motor quits. 3rd heat rigger - same thing (and the wires individually melted on both motors).
Then I ordered 4 new motors (2 for spares). Backed the timing off from 14 to 10 degrees on both boats. Funny thing, the tunnel is still at 14 degrees to this day - and I haven't had any problems. I wonder if the wires are being air cooled. (18 races on the original motor and a 447 prop, back-cut and tips rounded.)
On the rigger, I ran a 1650 that was pitched to 4.6" and I de-pitched it back to 3.8". So far I have over 8 races on this setup.
Conclusion: I don't think it helps either way. I think it's more critical watching timing and prop.

[Chilli]

You know, Greg has been the first person on this thread to put some numbers on the board and IMO I think he hit the nail on the head. For those that have had multiple failures, I'd like to know typically at what temperature the motors are coming in at after a heat? I had a UL1 motor fail this season because It was run too hard. My temps were pushing 150 and it lasted about a dozen heats before it finally toasted. I knew it was going to fail, but I just wanted to see how long it would last. No failures in D13 in a couple years and only one failure in my district in two years. I think if these motors were such pieces of crap, we would be screaming bloddy murder looking for a replacement for the spec classes. Instead they are bought by the bunch. So whats the real story? Are these motors considered disposable because they are cheap? Are they truly pieces of crap or are we just pushing them too hard?

[LuckyDuc]

I had a UL1 motor fail this season because It was run too hard. My temps were pushing 150 and it lasted about a dozen heats before it finally toasted.
150 degrees F is too hot for a UL-1 motor. I don’t push my motors over 120 degrees measured on the shaft.



I knew it was going to fail, but I just wanted to see how long it would last.

If you knew that it was going to fail why did you keep running it? I assume you were sport boating and not racing with this power system. Racing a boat with a known point of failure in your power system could cause you to lose more than just your motor. It could also take out your ESC, packs, and severely burn your hull.



So whats the real story? Are these motors considered disposable because they are cheap? Are they truly pieces of crap or are we just pushing them too hard?

Sounds like you are suggesting that AQ raise their prices. Gee thanks.
They are crap compared to Neu and Lehner motors… So I guess that it depends on your perspective. Are people pushing them too hard? I’m sure some are. Does it surprise you that some would push their equipment to the limits in the pursuit of racing “Success?” Learning limits is part of racing too. Hopefully newbs have a good FE mentors helping them along the way.

[Doug Smock]

Those temps are fine, in fact you should prop up as they like to run in the 160-170 range.

My FE-30 with the UL-1 motor runs the fastest with an m445 or a Grim 42x66. Both will draw an average 90-100 amps so watch the ESC.

How many more examples do ya want Mike??

LMAO Where is Lamb Chop????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0&feature=player_detailpage

[TheShaughnessy]

wanted to add my name to the list of people who have had ul1 motors fail because the insulation on the wires was damaged. First one happened down in camarrillo on a motor i had been running for a while. Made it through the heats, or the one that i managed not to get caught on a buoy or flip. Decided to run after the race and the boat died. Opened her up to find the insulation on all the wires was pretty much gone. This is when Tony told me i should do his mod. I was going to follow his advice on another ul1 motor i just got but impatience got the best of me and I ran without the mod. After i pulled another dead boat out of the water i looked straight to the wire insulation, sure enough it had melted where they enter the endbell, right were the black shrink holds all three wires together. Insulation was melted and the wires were touching. I have yet to send this motor back to see if aq will warranty it as i see this as manufacture defect.

First motor burnt in a FE converted vegas with a 120 speedo and m445 prop. Second was in a MG with the same electronics and prop. When using the data logger i have i recorded am peaks up to 105 but have no idea what they were/are during a constant wot run. Maybe i'm over propped (aren't there a few of us running the m445 on this motor?) or maybe the weather was hotter on these days then when i was running before with no issues. I think i read in another thread Doby said he is using a 54 mm prop with this motor?

As far as the rule goes. Im gonna worry about finishing more then one heat before that will be a concern of mine. I run a 120 amp speedo not because i think it will make me go faster but because they are available for less then one would pay for a 60 amp aq controller. Just change the timing from 15 and ur good to go.

[HydroMike]

Is this legal for NAMBA Spec Classes??I hope its legal for IMPBA lol

[xlandguy]

For me "legal" means nada, zip, zilch, zero, nuthin, lol. I've been in RC for over 25yrs now. I tried the racing thing for a couple of seasons. Just not my thing, love to watch and help out though. I wasnt very good either. So, I am a confirmed "basher" although I very very rarely "bash" my vehicles. Thanks for this idea PC, I did a very similar deal to my motor, which is now for sale in the classifieds.

[ron1950]

ive been running the same ul-1 on my outboard tunnel for 2 years and a m445 never had a problem yet.....these motors are prob mass produced and i am sure u can get one that s not going to last as long as others....just my 2 cents

[detox]

Today i opened up my UL1 motor and found one of these wires with worn away insulation. The wires had bullets installed so I just wrap wires using black electrical tape.

I also added an extra capacitor on esc for added insurance, since Fluid just recently popped Aquacraft's factory cap.

[Doby]

I hope the electrical tape was "approved" by the governing bodies...

[line6]

Having converted my motors back to run at the nats This year. I seen enough that I believe its simply a matter of having the three wires touching via the one big heat shrink. To me it seems to create a hot spot at that point. Just cutting that shrink and separating them should help. Granted u gota be pushing stuff fairly hard to have a issue. And also to me monos and sport hydro seem to be the hardest on the motors . Riggers and tunnel not so much. Just my opinion


Jason sims

[xlandguy]

Aquacraft should address the issue of cheapo wiring, why not beef it up, put at least 12g wire on there, and esc for cripes sake. Whats the use of upgrading to better connectors and stuff if the wires are only 14g?

[ray schrauwen]

Aquacraft should address the issue of cheapo wiring, why not beef it up, put at least 12g wire on there, and esc for cripes sake. Whats the use of upgrading to better connectors and stuff if the wires are only 14g?

Unfortunately that won't do much more than extra heat shrink since it would still need to be soldered to the hard strand winding wires.

Out of stupidity I burnt up 2 perfectly good non modified ul-1 motors because I over propped in a too heavy boat on a very hot day.

If you overload them, you overload them, there is not much more to them after 100 amps for a short period of time.

[properchopper]

Having converted my motors back to run at the nats This year. I seen enough that I believe its simply a matter of having the three wires touching via the one big heat shrink. To me it seems to create a hot spot at that point. Just cutting that shrink and separating them should help. Granted u gota be pushing stuff fairly hard to have a issue. And also to me monos and sport hydro seem to be the hardest on the motors . Riggers and tunnel not so much. Just my opinion


Jason sims

Exactly. A hot spot is created where the three wires are bundled together. My guess is that AQ has put the shrink there to prevent chafing on the sharp edges where they exit. Solves this problem but creates another, unfortunately.

Riggers run looser, and tunnels have the wires exposed to the airstream so less heat=less chance of insulation heat damage. The 5.5's provide lower resistance to the overall current stream, so the damage point becomes passed along to the wires just inside the endbell which become the next "burn site". I agree that the LTD motors need to be the same for everybody to respect the intent of the class so the current rule of leaving the motors "as delivered" accomplishes this and forces one to delve into the secret Oriental practice of " Too-Ning" to achieve competitiveness while remaining in compliance ( 'tho learning this has cost me a few motors.)

If you overload them, you overload them, there is not much more to them after 100 amps for a short period of time.

Apparantly Ray-San has discovered this ancient hidden secret and has generously shared the root cause :smile: Thank you, Sir.:wink:

[G1ST]

Finally did this mod today to my trusty old UL-1 motor. Should have taken pictures but mine was in much worse shape than yours.
The FE gods let it live
Thanks for the great tip Tony
Greg

[properchopper]

That knock on your door you'll soon hear will be the NAMBA Police. :hornets_nest:




Finally did this mod today to my trusty old UL-1 motor. Should have taken pictures but mine was in much worse shape than yours.
The FE gods let it live
Thanks for the great tip Tony
Greg

[ray schrauwen]

If you overload them, you overload them, there is not much more to them after 100 amps for a short period of time.

Apparantly Ray-San has discovered this ancient hidden secret and has generously shared the root cause :smile: Thank you, Sir.:wink:


Unfortunately I am a bit of a blonde when it comes to the UL-1 motor and my PTSS. At Michigan I burned up both the motor and a 150A esc. I think the esc took out the motor but, whatever...

I now have a very stinky boat.

What prop do you suggest I start with my PTSS and a UL-1 motor? 642? Because, the M445 I tried fried everything after 3 laps...:nopity:

[G1ST]

That knock on your door you'll soon hear will be the NAMBA Police. :hornets_nest:

No Doubt
I'm the guy that always gets caught.
I'll keep it in the play boats

[RandyatBBY]

Unfortunately I am a bit of a blonde when it comes to the UL-1 motor and my PTSS. At Michigan I burned up both the motor and a 150A esc. I think the esc took out the motor but, whatever...

I now have a very stinky boat.

What prop do you suggest I start with my PTSS and a UL-1 motor? 642? Because, the M445 I tried fried everything after 3 laps...:nopity:

You should never burn up a motor with these props H-10, X442, 640 and a 42x55 . I have been liking the S-15 too

[Shooter]

Yep, the problem is that most everyone was running 445's, 545's, H5's, and I even heard of an H7!!! Tough crowd last weekend!! lol!!

I've been running this do-hickey for some time now and haven't burnt up any wires. No mods to the motor itself. Motor is as-manufactured. Just slips over the end bell.

BTW Ray - You've got yourself one heck of a great lady to put up with the ESC stink all the way home! My wife almost made me drop a boat hull in the garbage at the gas station one trip!

See ya!
Pete

101763

[jcald2000]

Nice Do-hickey, did you make that?

[ray schrauwen]

Yep, the problem is that most everyone was running 445's, 545's, H5's, and I even heard of an H7!!! Tough crowd last weekend!! lol!!

I've been running this do-hickey for some time now and haven't burnt up any wires. No mods to the motor itself. Motor is as-manufactured. Just slips over the end bell.

BTW Ray - You've got yourself one heck of a great lady to put up with the ESC stink all the way home! My wife almost made me drop a boat hull in the garbage at the gas station one trip!

See ya!
Pete

101763

Yes I do sir, she is tops! She even helps me build! I need to make one of those end bell coolers, pretty slick Pete.

[Shooter]

Thanks guys. Yes, I machined it on the mill with a saw cutter. Took 3 stinkin hours! There is a separate thread on it... 'Endbell Heat Sink'. Didn't mean to hijack Tony's thread.....just wanted to mention other ways of addressing the wire insulation issue.

[Brushless55]

just wanted to bump this thread as I lost a UL-1 motor this past weekend during our finals .....
not sure if quality has dipped but the motor had 2 or 3 laps for testing a few weeks ago then Sat. it went up in smoke going into lap 3 during the first heat of the day... :sad:

[ray schrauwen]

I'm starting to wonder the same thing. Maybe the 1800kv motor will work better, that's what I might try.

[Doug Smock]

just wanted to bump this thread as I lost a UL-1 motor this past weekend during our finals .....
not sure if quality has dipped but the motor had 2 or 3 laps for testing a few weeks ago then Sat. it went up in smoke going into lap 3 during the first heat of the day... :sad:

What class, set up etc?

[ray schrauwen]

For me LSH, I have melted 3 motors in my PTSS and haven't finished a race in a while. Of course I could be guilty of too much prop and not enough setup/pond time. I'm sticking with a 42mm prop from now on.

[photohoward1]

When are we going to admit that those motors suck. I have gone to a nue 1515/1y in all my spec setups. More reliable and better built.

My 20 SGX rigger clicked at 63mph on an H7 and 120 seaking. 85 degrees on the motor.

I think we made a big mistake picking cheap motors. I have burned up too many. We all would have saved money by buying better quality from the start.

[ray schrauwen]

AGREE! That would kinda make it P-sport hydro then sort of but, unless they are handing out spec props for LSH these motors are costing too much imo. A Castle 1515 1Y would be not too bad also. With spec props, all you have to tech is the diameter I mean, nothing over XXmm in diameter and the CD has a Template to check. You can work it any way you want and have any pitch you want just not over a specific diameter, just a thought.



When are we going to admit that those motors suck. I have gone to a nue 1515/1y in all my spec setups. More reliable and better built.

My 20 SGX rigger clicked at 63mph on an H7 and 120 seaking. 85 degrees on the motor.

I think we made a big mistake picking cheap motors. I have burned up too many. We all would have saved money by buying better quality from the start.

[Doby]

Here we go.....

[LuckyDuc]

I replaced a UL-1 motor I had in my LSH for the last 2 yrs with a new one at the beginning of summer. It only lasted 3 runs before frying on the same setup as the 2 yr old motor. I put the 2 yr old UL-1 motor back in and haven't had a problem since doing that. :confused1:

[LuckyDuc]

Here we go.....
Where's the dead horse emoticon?

[T.S.Davis]

Not my yob.

[Doug Smock]

I replaced a UL-1 motor I had in my LSH for the last 2 yrs with a new one at the beginning of summer. It only lasted 3 runs before frying on the same setup as the 2 yr old motor. I put the 2 yr old UL-1 motor back in and haven't had a problem since doing that. :confused1:

Hey Sean,
That sucks. Hope that isn't the new norm.

[properchopper]

While I really want to cautiously avoid "stirring the pot" on this topic, I'm sitting on a mountain of shared experience in the P-Ltd realm in which the AQ2030 motor is the bread-and-butter powerplant and there seems that some "discussion" may be warranted regarding the durability of later-model versions of this motor.

[T.S.Davis]

Make sure you let Grim know this.

I hope this isn't the norm too. I just replaced my working LSO motor last night and have a race this Sunday. That would be a season killer for me.

[Brushless55]

What class, set up etc?

Doug, this was in my PSpec Rigger with help from Snowman :tiphat:


When are we going to admit that those motors suck. I have gone to a nue 1515/1y in all my spec setups. More reliable and better built.

My 20 SGX rigger clicked at 63mph on an H7 and 120 seaking. 85 degrees on the motor.

I think we made a big mistake picking cheap motors. I have burned up too many. We all would have saved money by buying better quality from the start.

That is not a PSpec motor that most of us race with.. :thumbup1:


I replaced a UL-1 motor I had in my LSH for the last 2 yrs with a new one at the beginning of summer. It only lasted 3 runs before frying on the same setup as the 2 yr old motor. I put the 2 yr old UL-1 motor back in and haven't had a problem since doing that. :confused1:

yep, mine went up in about 5 1/2 laps total... 3 on practice day without any issues and 2 1/2 laps in heat #1 before is smoked..
I did put in a older UL-1 motor before heat #3 and ended up placing 2nd for our finals on Sat. :rockon2:


While I really want to cautiously avoid "stirring the pot" on this topic, I'm sitting on a mountain of shared experience in the P-Ltd realm in which the AQ2030 motor is the bread-and-butter powerplant and there seems that some "discussion" may be warranted regarding the durability of later-model versions of this motor.

I hope this is not what is happening :sad:

[Doby]

Where's the dead horse emoticon?

In Peterson's computer somewhere!

[TheShaughnessy]

This could get ugly best not to play with fire.

[TheShaughnessy]

Picture of a monitor so might be a lil fuzzy.

[properchopper]

This could get ugly best not to play with fire.

While I'm not sayin' that these motors are less robust than earlier ones(:sneaky2:) I have taken some steps:huh:

I'll match you One electric computer fan (reversed to extract heat from the motor)
and
raise you One independent pickup for the motor only

105096

and also raise you

The ProperChopper Labs prototype blue-ice filled in-line KoolStick (pictured during sink test)

105097





:spy:105098:wink:

[TheShaughnessy]

I'll match your independent pick up.

I'll be prototyping a kopper kool keeper here pretty soon.

[Doug Smock]

:blink:

[photohoward1]

If they had better wire to begin with...We would not need silly wire coolers or separation of wires so they don't touch. We are putting 5.5mm or 6mm connectors on 2 or 3mm wire. It's just stupid.
Maybe we need to statr stirring a little bit. The forum has been boring for a while. I like rays suggestion. But hand out props. All the same pitch!

[LuckyDuc]

Perhaps this is the path that leads back to the revival of the "P" classes.

[Chilli]

LuckyDuc, you posted this as I was composing this message. You hit the nail on the head.

Though I admire all the innovations for trying to get the most out of the UL1 motors, I think if they were run closer to the parameters they were designed for there would be no need for all these modifications. Most in my area run a 42x55 for tunnels and sport hydro's and the H7 for riggers. The result is competitive heats with very few failures which is what I strive for in my district. We may be a couple mph slower than many of you but we have a hell of a good time racing without burning stuff up. This has helped us bring newbies and IC converts into FE racing. I have come to realize the P-Limited classes serve a different purpose in other parts of the country and that's cool. Everyone has to do what ever makes your membership happy. Howard does bring up some good points. For the price of three burned out UL1 motors you can buy a Neu. I'm curious how many clubs and districts only run P-Limited classes?? I'm heard of P-Limted Tunnel, Hydro, Sport Hydro, Mono, Offshore classes and even a few talk about a Q-Limited class. What I want to know is why are we so stuck on the Limited classes?? Why not just P and Q? It's obviously not about money since many are going through a couple motors a year??

[photohoward1]

LuckyDuc, you posted this as I was composing this message. You hit the nail on the head.

Though I admire all the innovations for trying to get the most out of the UL1 motors, I think if they were run closer to the parameters they were designed for there would be no need for all these modifications. Most in my area run a 42x55 for tunnels and sport hydro's and the H7 for riggers. The result is competitive heats with very few failures which is what I strive for in my district. We may be a couple mph slower than many of you but we have a hell of a good time racing without burning stuff up. This has helped us bring newbies and IC converts into FE racing. I have come to realize the P-Limited classes serve a different purpose in other parts of the country and that's cool. Everyone has to do what ever makes your membership happy. Howard does bring up some good points. For the price of three burned out UL1 motors you can buy a Neu. I'm curious how many clubs and districts only run P-Limited classes?? I'm heard of P-Limted Tunnel, Hydro, Sport Hydro, Mono, Offshore classes and even a few talk about a Q-Limited class. What I want to know is why are we so stuck on the Limited classes?? Why not just P and Q? It's obviously not about money since many are going through a couple motors a year??

Human nature on wanting to go faster. I run an H7 on my rigger and it always came back hot. Mine is probably not set-up as well as some others that come back cool. To be competitive I need that H7..on cooler days I ran an H10... "A wise man spends wisely. A fool spends foolishly" I can run my LSO on an M445 (2030/1800kv) all day. One prop tick higher and poof! BTW I put the 1515/1y in my rigger and 63mph..H7, 85 degrees 7 laps and 3000mah... and that motor is 6 years old and been beaten to death..(apparently not death it's still screams). In my club we run a small open class. 4s. New guys usually show up with castle or leopard motor in them. I was the only one with a AQ2030 (because I travel and race). I would smoke a motor and they would wonder what idiot spec'd those motors? (I was in the original discussion group that helped pick them.) Live and learn.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I think that with anything, there are some production runs that are better than others with mass produced items. You guys run them harder than they were intended on and find the limits much faster. I sell the 1415 1y for $165.00 that's twice the cost of a 2030 but one burnt up motor and it your even.

[photohoward1]

I think that with anything, there are some production runs that are better than others with mass produced items. You guys run them harder than they were intended on and find the limits much faster. I sell the 1415 1y for $165.00 that's twice the cost of a 2030 but one burnt up motor and it your even.

My thoughts exactly....

[SirBudman32]

Howard, I have a 1515 2200 in my Jae as well. With the H-7 mine ran 63 mph but came back with everything under 110 degrees. I am running on 5s also. I do run with a 1450 same set up and it runs 75 mph consistently.

[DPeterson]

Brushless55 - A fellow racer of mine had the same thing happen. He returned it back to Tower and received back another one.

It appears the manufactuer of the motor decided to switch the type of varnish used to coat the windings as there is a distinct difference. I too lost a new motor in a tried and true set up. In another proven set up I am seeing higher run temps.

As for cooling - I have been experimenting with all kinds of cooling systems. I am sure there are some positve attributes. However I believe that any and all cooling systems that we apply can not take the heat away as fast as it is generated. Therefore we really can not cool the weak link in the motor (the beginning of the windings).

So far I have not gone through any more UL1 motors than I used to go through with the 700 Brushed motors in the spec classes. Even though I had argued from day one against specing Chinese equipment I am not ready to throw in the towel. We have gotten to this point by making 3 bad decisions 1. allowing 2P, 2. wrong length limits and 3. specing Chinese equipment. Lets be very carefull and more thorough when we are discussing future directions.

Enough for now - got to find my Horse Icon in my computer. :)

[Doby]

........................

105117

[Doug Smock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8cpkwPAbY0

[Darin Jordan]

I think that the manufacturers order these motors in large batches... maybe 500 at a time or ??? The Chinese manufacturers definitely change things up from batch to batch... One of the side-effects of relying on overseas. The company receiving the parts usually doesn't find out or realize it until the products start arriving, and are in the hands of the consumer. Some of these things... internal to the parts, are really hard to "quality control"... Something probably could be done... at a larger cost.

I have personally approved motor designs that, when they went to production, have had the materials used changed. It's frustrating, and I'm sure that Mike Z. and I share in that frustration... He's more on the hook, however, since he's actually employed by one of the Companies... :)

I'm not sure I agree that we "shouldn't have spec'd" these motors for this class. No one said that about the 700's for the former LSH/LSO class... Same deal there... Quality and performance varied to a large extent, as did reliability.

I think we have enough variety, however, to have options....

The biggest failure I see with the P-Ltd rules is that we allowed the 2030KV motor to be included. It's clearly the motor of choice, and the only competitive option, in several of the classes, and that wasn't the intent of the rules.

I might perhaps get Pro Boat to develop something with a 2000-2100KV motor at some point, but then we have the issue with getting it "allowed" in the rules. Opening up the rules at all seems to be an issue, which, frankly, is a little silly, since part of "spec" racing is to have the ability to adjust the rules to the equipment from time to time.

Luckily for NAMBA, David Newland had the forsight to include in the rules the option for the CD of the event, with the proper documentation, to allow/dissallow furture offerings, in lieu of them being officially listed.

OK, back under my rock...

[properchopper]

I think that the manufacturers order these motors in large batches... maybe 500 at a time or ??? The Chinese manufacturers definitely change things up from batch to batch... One of the side-effects of relying on overseas. The company receiving the parts usually doesn't find out or realize it until the products start arriving, and are in the hands of the consumer. Some of these things... internal to the parts, are really hard to "quality control"... Something probably could be done... at a larger cost.

I have personally approved motor designs that, when they went to production, have had the materials used changed. It's frustrating, and I'm sure that Mike Z. and I share in that frustration... He's more on the hook, however, since he's actually employed by one of the Companies... :)

I'm not sure I agree that we "shouldn't have spec'd" these motors for this class. No one said that about the 700's for the former LSH/LSO class... Same deal there... Quality and performance varied to a large extent, as did reliability.

I think we have enough variety, however, to have options....

The biggest failure I see with the P-Ltd rules is that we allowed the 2030KV motor to be included. It's clearly the motor of choice, and the only competitive option, in several of the classes, and that wasn't the intent of the rules.

I might perhaps get Pro Boat to develop something with a 2000-2100KV motor at some point, but then we have the issue with getting it "allowed" in the rules. Opening up the rules at all seems to be an issue, which, frankly, is a little silly, since part of "spec" racing is to have the ability to adjust the rules to the equipment from time to time.

Luckily for NAMBA, David Newland had the forsight to include in the rules the option for the CD of the event, with the proper documentation, to allow/dissallow furture offerings, in lieu of them being officially listed.

OK, back under my rock...


Build it and , if I'm reading this correctly, it SHOULD be ALLOWABLE (at the CD's discretion of course)

105144

[properchopper]

Seems like the D9 DMWB approved, at their discretion, the Venom "Atomik" Miss Excite motor for P-Ltd racing at the 2012 Grand Prix Classic.

"Its a fast little vessel right out of the box in fact, it won Pltd hydro bone stack (sic) at 2012 Grand Prix Classic." (from an OSE post that Wilmer made recently)

[ron1950]

hey darin wondered where you had been hideing..have not seen u on for awhile....got to say I have always wondered about the AQ2030 and why proboat never brought out a 2100 kv motor to compete....id sure give it a try...seems most of my boats are spec anymore with 2030 motors...seems the only boat I have left with pro boat motor is the vintage hydro as we use the pb1500 motors on this side of the pond...:doh:

[Mike Caruso]

Long thread great info and just I have to get in here.

Why do we only use water cooling on case and maybe aftermarket on ONE end of the motor????

I think we should cool the case and both ends with water there is a bearing on each end.

Anyone done A-B-A testing with that?

Doug have you tried coating the motor wires to help hold them in place at high rpm?

Tony nice on starting this whole deal and it was one of the first items I noticed on my AQ Motors.

Thanks to all.

[ray schrauwen]

Build it and , if I'm reading this correctly, it SHOULD be ALLOWABLE (at the CD's discretion of course)

105144

By that rule the TFL Hobby Mono that comes RTR with a 36x60mm can 2075kv 4-pole should be legal. HobbyKing also sells 2 mono's with that same 2075kv 4-pole motor. I would like to get one to try it out. I'm sure they have sold at least 100 units around the world> TFL MONO (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__30568__Smash_Shark_Fiberglass_Offshore_Brushless _Racing_Boat_w_Motor_840mm_.html)

[Shooter]

[QUOTE=properchopper;526350]The ProperChopper Labs prototype blue-ice filled in-line KoolStick (pictured during sink test)


I'm lovin the 'Koolstick'!!! I tried a similar contraption as well. Got carried away as usual. Found ice cubes to be the most effective. (4) ice cubes stopped producing cooler water after ~120s @10cc/s w/90deg inlet water. Data below....

105151

[Mike Caruso]

Very nice job testing great R&D

[Shooter]

Thanks Mike. I remember that day. I was supposed to be working on our bathroom! It was under the guise of a 'plumbing project'.

PC - Have you tested the KoolStick?? With a simple airplane electric fuel pump, you can take temps of the water coming out at 10s intervals. Typical race is ....what? around 120s?? Would be interested to know how long it keeps cool. My ice cube cannister was huge and resulted in a 'slosh effect'. You've got that solved with the KoolStick.

[DPeterson]

Chille

I think if they were run closer to the parameters they were designed for there would be no need for all these modifications.

Yep - these were designed for rtr toy boats for the purpose of selling to the masses for a profit. We made a decision to incorporate them into our race boats. Of course I think the confusion still exists whether these classes were supposed to be rtr, beginners classes or actually an extension of the old 700 spec classes.

Darin

No one said that about the 700's for the former LSH/LSO class... Same deal there... Quality and performance varied to a large extent, as did reliability.

The boat racing started with 05 motors and then we evolved with the Astro Flight, Plettenberg and then the drill motors. Not a lot of choices available when the spec classes were developed. When the P-Limited motors were selected we were already running many varieties of good quality proven brushless motors. Lehners, Hackers, Aveox and many more. I guess the thinking/confusion again was that rtr/beginners will grow the sport. This is highly debatable of course as I have seen many beginners start and quit as much as I have seen nitro races converting to electric (not because of the spec motor but because of the speeds they see).

Side note - I am still learning more about the Gas classes (running a Thunderboat), but I am not seeing the gas guys speccing the lowest quality rtr motor they can get their hands on.

Mike Caruso - what do you mean by coating the motor wires?

Back to the subject of cooling - Cooling is absolutely needed where ever you can provide it. For the most part we can cool the can and the end bells but has no effect on the magnets/stator. The heat is generated in the windings. IMO our cooling has a minor impact on the windings. So what to do? - keep timing down, prop down, set boat up to run loose and get rid of all un-necessary prop area.

My horse got back up for a few minutes - going outside now to beat him back down. :)

[ray schrauwen]

Thank you Howard. This is the way the Europeans have been doing it for a LONG time except they use Graupner Carbon props or Etti props. If it wasn't working for them they would have done something different. No need to re invent a wheel that already has a proven track record (exchange "wheel" with the word idea).



If they had better wire to begin with...We would not need silly wire coolers or separation of wires so they don't touch. We are putting 5.5mm or 6mm connectors on 2 or 3mm wire. It's just stupid.
Maybe we need to statr stirring a little bit. The forum has been boring for a while. I like rays suggestion. But hand out props. All the same pitch!

Chille

I think if they were run closer to the parameters they were designed for there would be no need for all these modifications.


Again, prop size controlled and there is no problem. If a problem does occur then you can blame the motor not the setup.

[properchopper]

Interesting how this topic continues to re-emerge. Sufficient evidence to not call it a "Dead Horse" as I see it.

Just for drill, my POV is right in the center of the "Ltd" world. D19 regularly races 2 Ltd classes; P-Ltd Sport Hydro and P-Ltd Cat. Quite active and fun/rewarding. I have four different Ltd Class boats ready to go, and currently hold two NAMBA SAW Ltd Class records.

My short take on whether or whether not later 2030 motors have been degraded can simply summed up by applying the Aflack paradigm, period.

Discussing what the original intent was in forming Ltd classes is just mental gymnastics. Today, it simply is what it is .
IIRC it was the PNW guys putting a SV27 motor on P-OPC boats and racing them. Once I saw the video I was hooked. Then LSO became a "spec" class and on and on. Regionally, the FE30 got things going in Cali.

As far as D19 goes, a wave of interest in racing swelled up. The SOCAL FE boys, unwilling or unable to run higher dollar unlimiteds got on the Ltd wagon. What at first really turned the tide and allowed the five-boat-to-make-a-class rule to be fulfilled was the crossover of some good buddies in the gas/nitro ranks rigging P-Ltd Sport Hydros. That really got the ball rolling BUT now a dark cloud on that horizon has appeared. The motors started to burn up. I mean REGULARLY. Props we used two years ago without issue are now gathering dust. I can read the minds of these crossover people and it ain't good.

What to do? Notwithstanding a current (local) unofficial "gentleman's agreement" to prop down, do we add more cooling? Nah. Doug hit the nail on the head. The 2030's burn the insulation off the windings right after they enter the endbell. More/colder water flow? Nah, Doug is correct in offering that this area isn't helped by watercooling cans.

Homologate different motors ? The TP PowerUSA 3650 canned 7Y(2250KV), 8Y(1970KV), 9Y(1750KV) at $73 retail look good (Ray the TFL motor is a longer can, more than the 5% increased mass allowance).I don't think that's the answer. Racers being racers, some will prop up until the "fuse point" is found and we'll be back to square one.

I don't know what the solution is. I'm propping down and giving it a rest with cheeseburger in hand.

[ray schrauwen]

I don't know what the solution is. I'm propping down and giving it a rest with cheeseburger in hand.

Me too...

[properchopper]

Me too...

Pass the Grey Poupon please.....:wink:

[DPeterson]

Like I said in an earlier post, I am not ready to throw in the towel on the limited motors. Unless a well thought out and unanimus solution would be found. I plan to keep racing the 2030 and the 1800 while pushing them to the limit while finding ways to make them work. "Set Up"

One thing is for sure. While we are not all that happy about the quality and the risk of failure with these motors, they have held our heat racing speeds down in the 40-50 mph area. This has allowed us to bump, hit bouy's and fly off without distroying our boats. I still remember the days of running full blown 2P 4S open classes and watching guy's go home from a race with $1,000's of dollars of damage. Myself included. Right now Sean and I can run each other over and still take our boats home. :)

I would be afraid now that a change to a better quality motor would increase our speeds into the danger area again. We would most certainly have to spec a lower KV motor to off set the quality factor. Then what did we gain? Not sure I could by into the prop diameter requirement as of yet. Need to think on that one.

[Doby]

Chille


Yep - these were designed for rtr toy boats for the purpose of selling to the masses for a profit. We made a decision to incorporate them into our race boats. Of course I think the confusion still exists whether these classes were supposed to be rtr, beginners classes or actually an extension of the old 700 spec classes.

Darin


The boat racing started with 05 motors and then we evolved with the Astro Flight, Plettenberg and then the drill motors. Not a lot of choices available when the spec classes were developed. When the P-Limited motors were selected we were already running many varieties of good quality proven brushless motors. Lehners, Hackers, Aveox and many more. I guess the thinking/confusion again was that rtr/beginners will grow the sport. This is highly debatable of course as I have seen many beginners start and quit as much as I have seen nitro races converting to electric (not because of the spec motor but because of the speeds they see).

Side note - I am still learning more about the Gas classes (running a Thunderboat), but I am not seeing the gas guys speccing the lowest quality rtr motor they can get their hands on.

Mike Caruso - what do you mean by coating the motor wires?

Back to the subject of cooling - Cooling is absolutely needed where ever you can provide it. For the most part we can cool the can and the end bells which in turn cools the magnets. The heat is generated in the windings. Our cooling has little to no impact on the windings. So what to do? - keep timing down, prop down, set boat up to run loose and get rid of all un-necessary prop area.

My horse got back up for a few minutes - going outside now to beat him back down. :)


A Peterson Sighting in Wisconsin:

http://youtu.be/Z4mVsa-t3-k

[Chilli]

Chille


Yep - these were designed for rtr toy boats for the purpose of selling to the masses for a profit. We made a decision to incorporate them into our race boats. Of course I think the confusion still exists whether these classes were supposed to be rtr, beginners classes or actually an extension of the old 700 spec classes.



You hit the nail on the head. I come to realize a few years back when the big ESC debates took place that the Limited classes have different purposes to different groups. I know the NAMBA districts out west have a more mature FE racing program so it's futile to argue needs of a class when we each have a different direction we want to pursue. In our district the purpose of the Limited class was created to attract new racers and establish a drivers class. For now, everyone is playing nice. But if gets to the point were people start sacrificing equipment for trophies, maybe we will look into spec'ing props. Interestingly enough, Look's like everyone has gone from complaining about ESC's a few years ago to motors now.

[Doug Smock]

Prop choice (work) is key with these set ups. Just a little cutting, reducing, etc. can go a long way in reducing motor temps. Free up some rpms and watch the temps fall.

No matter what our means of attempting to cool the stators, a 1hp motor isn't going to pull a 2hp load for any length of time.

[photohoward1]

Think of this. If we spec'd the props and used for example Leopard 4074/2200kv motors....They would last forever. (yes they are more watts than the AQ Motors but if we spec say x445 props or equivalent (h5 or 4555) We could easily run 120 amp seakings or equivalent esc all day only pulling 80 to 90 amps.

Just a thought.....

[Chilli]

Got anything in mind for the Tunnel guys? I'd hate to be the one to tell the tunnel heads on IW!! LOL

[TheShaughnessy]

I run a 447 and a 1800 kv in my limited cat. I was able to his 45.6 mph as verified only by Tony's GPS. Our last race tony and Stephen ran 2030's. they started with 42 and were a tad slower then me then. Stephen went to a 445. His boat was fast. Running loose and on the ragged edge but fast. One heat he lead for 5 and a half laps when suddenly he was dead in the water at the exit of turn 2. Brought the motor back in to find melted heat shrink and touching wires where they exit the end bell.

As for the limited hydros well I can't say. I've moved on but too much thought on the event is just depressing. My plans were to run a 1800 kv PB in that as well but I never got to do any testing on it.

Now on to changing spec motors. Run full blown p then, convince those in your club it's better and go with it. What was discovered here in D19 is that a castle or Neu 15151y ( common p motor) in a FE 30 makes it too fast to stay wet side down in race chop resulting in more dnfs then deck to deck racing or even finishing a heat. As I'm sure we all know you have to finish the race to win. In addition the extra speed you can squeeze out of the leopard 2200 kvs means more damage in a crash or blow off.

The way I see it there are 2 options, run the class get the set up right and be positive about it. Or find anything and everything to complain about and be a negative nancy I hate life kind of person.

The only problems with the class are the ones we make.

[Darin Jordan]

As we've shown, and discussed at length over the years... spec'ing props doesn't solve anything... Those that can tweak will and game over. Plus, different hulls require different props... You'd turn a LIMITED (not "spec'd) motor class into a Limited Hull Class... Sounds a lot like Spec SV27 to me...

Racing is going to be racing, regardless of the motor used. There isn't a magic bullet, outside of spec'ing an entire boat system, that will prevent some from succeeding, some failing, some equipment surviving, and some not... Doug had it just right... just a LITTLE bit of time spent learing to tune a boat will go a long ways. People talk about how hard we are on equipment "out west here"... yet, I can't recall a motor being sacrificed yet, especially in the name of a trophy. My P-Ltd OPC Lynx, which has proven to be "pretty fast", draws right around 85-95 Amps... comes in after a 1-Mile heat, running 15-second lap times (NAMBA 6-Lap record setter Twice this year with a 1:30.6, and just last week with a 1:28.44) at right around 110-degrees... Running a 42x55 on a UL-1 motor.

Racing is racing... and the P-Limited classes continue to have high participation. SOMETHING must be right about the formula...

Oh, and the whole "beginners class" is a complete misnomer... It's a limited class, from and equipment perspective, so it's more "beginner friendly", but I don't think the general intent was for it to be for beginners only. It's a way for EVERYONE to compete on a more restricted playing field. That's it.

[Mike Caruso]

Prop choice (work) is key with these set ups. Just a little cutting, reducing, etc. can go a long way in reducing motor temps. Free up some rpms and watch the temps fall.

No matter what our means of attempting to cool the stators, a 1hp motor isn't going to pull a 2hp load for any length of time.

2nd that.

See I learned today that the heat comes from the Stator. Since the stator heat is blocked from the case with one of the worlds best insulators AIR. We can only deal with the heat that makes it to the case and end plates. Great motors none the less.

[Darin Jordan]

2nd that.

See I learned today that the heat comes from the Stator. Since the stator heat is blocked from the case with one of the worlds best insulators AIR. We can only deal with the heat that makes it to the case and end plates. Great motors none the less.

Mike,

Actually, you might be pleasantly surprised at how much a simple fan blowing some air though the endbell can help. We have pretty stagnent air inside our boats. Circulating it around a bit does help. Every little bit helps...

I was having some issues at a SAW event with the wires between the motor and the ESC on one of my 1-Cell hydro setups (pulling 150+amps through a ROAR 540 motor... 3.5 Turn, if I recall).... I added a cooling fan from a Castle ESC and the problem went away...

The old 700 brushed motors used to have fans built in. Some Neus can be ordered with internal fans as well. A simple 5V can blowing air into the endbell helps to at least move the heat out. In fact... my good buddy, Tony H. revitalized this idea at the 2012 Nats... even loaned me one of his fans! :)

[Mike Caruso]

Darin,
Thanks I never would have thought of using a fan. But as you proved just moving the air around caused a drop in temp simple fast easy. That is a speed secret guys not many are ever giving out. Thank you again.
Mike

[ray schrauwen]

I like the ARC 36-55-1850kv motor. For $94 it's far more robust than any other 36-55 size motor in it's price range. The wire inside is at least 3-4 times the diameter of AQ motors if not larger and all are "y" winds. I've read all above, seems like it will stay the same. I'm all for p-sport then I guess but, not many around me interested yet.... We'll see what the next season has in store for us.

Darin, I had no idea that a certain motor either 1800kv or 2030kv would work differently in different hulls. I guess I just don't get enough pond time.

What motor and prop is best suggested for the PTSS hull then?? That said I just don't have the pond time to tinker with props nearly as much as a hard core racer would, that's my problem along with sore hands from arthritis.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, I had no idea that a certain motor either 1800kv or 2030kv would work differently in different hulls. I guess I just don't get enough pond time.

What motor and prop is best suggested for the PTSS hull then?? That said I just don't have the pond time to tinker with props nearly as much as a hard core racer would, that's my problem along with sore hands from arthritis.

Ray, I'm definitely the WRONG person to query concerning making the PTSS hull to work... My Stealth 30 has me frustrated to the point where I'm about to "accidently" leave it behind Brian's car after the race so he'll back over it.

The best luck I've had with the 2030 motor in this boat was with a tweaked X440/3 blade.

[ray schrauwen]

I'll give it a shot. thx.

[Chilli]

As we've shown, and discussed at length over the years... spec'ing props doesn't solve anything... Those that can tweak will and game over. Plus, different hulls require different props... You'd turn a LIMITED (not "spec'd) motor class into a Limited Hull Class... Sounds a lot like Spec SV27 to me...

Racing is going to be racing, regardless of the motor used. There isn't a magic bullet, outside of spec'ing an entire boat system, that will prevent some from succeeding, some failing, some equipment surviving, and some not... Doug had it just right... just a LITTLE bit of time spent learing to tune a boat will go a long ways. People talk about how hard we are on equipment "out west here"... yet, I can't recall a motor being sacrificed yet, especially in the name of a trophy. My P-Ltd OPC Lynx, which has proven to be "pretty fast", draws right around 85-95 Amps... comes in after a 1-Mile heat, running 15-second lap times (NAMBA 6-Lap record setter Twice this year with a 1:30.6, and just last week with a 1:28.44) at right around 110-degrees... Running a 42x55 on a UL-1 motor.

Racing is racing... and the P-Limited classes continue to have high participation. SOMETHING must be right about the formula...

Oh, and the whole "beginners class" is a complete misnomer... It's a limited class, from and equipment perspective, so it's more "beginner friendly", but I don't think the general intent was for it to be for beginners only. It's a way for EVERYONE to compete on a more restricted playing field. That's it.


I don't think anyone has ever considered the Limited classes a true beginners class but as you said it's a great place to get your feet wet. That's why some of us might be overprotective of the class. I'm glad you guys on the west coast don't burn up gear in the name of taking home wood but there have been dozens of posts that indicate it does happen in other parts of the country. Why do I care so much about the rest of the country when I'm happy with the way things are going in my district? Because potential racers in my are read these posts and it may discourage them from getting into racing. When I read posts recommending a new Limited racer "pick up a couple spare motors if you want to be competitive", I cringe.

[Fluid]

As we've shown, and discussed at length over the years... spec'ing props doesn't solve anything... Those that can tweak will and game over....You'd turn a LIMITED (not "spec'd) motor class into a Limited Hull Class....Actually our club has had very good success with a "spec" N2 Sport Hydro class. All motors are the same, and the club bought identical S&B props which everyone has to use as-in, no tweaking. If that ever becomes an issue in the future we'll just collect all the props after each heat and randomly redistribute them - problem swolved. We have three different hulls running very close together in speed, that means very close racing. Would this work in the P-Limited classes? Probably too complex, especially since the current formula is so successful. We developed this "club class" to allow our older LSH hulls to still race since P-Limited power was too much for the smaller hulls. Speeds are still upper 40s....


...Oh, and the whole "beginners class" is a complete misnomer... It's a limited class, from and equipment perspective, so it's more "beginner friendly", but I don't think the general intent was for it to be for beginners only....That's how it is today, although the original LSH class was designed to be a beginner's class. From the 2006 NAMBA rule book: "Experienced racers are strongly urged to consider the skill level of the opponents when running in this class, since the intent is to encourage less skilled racers to have success." .



.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I may be wrong, but i think the scale unlimited guys run a spec'd prop. They have different hulls, running the same prop. It used to be a carbon prop. but its been a while since I asked.

Times have changed, as you guys know there are cnc props that can be used and restricted to leave as is.

[Darin Jordan]

I will give you this... spec'd props would make this game a lot less expensive, and less time consuming...

I vote for the ABC 42x55 or the GrimRacer (yes, the competition... :scared: ) 42x55... :wink:

Would make this an AQ2030 game, but it's pretty much that at this point anyhow... If you spec props, it certainly will be...

[ray schrauwen]

Actually our club has had very good success with a "spec" N2 Sport Hydro class. All motors are the same, and the club bought identical S&B props which everyone has to use as-in, no tweaking. If that ever becomes an issue in the future we'll just collect all the props after each heat and randomly redistribute them - problem swolved. We have three different hulls running very close together in speed, that means very close racing. Would this work in the P-Limited classes? Probably too complex, especially since the current formula is so successful. We developed this "club class" to allow our older LSH hulls to still race since P-Limited power was too much for the smaller hulls. Speeds are still upper 40s....

That's how it is today, although the original LSH class was designed to be a beginner's class. From the 2006 NAMBA rule book: "Experienced racers are strongly urged to consider the skill level of the opponents when running in this class, since the intent is to encourage less skilled racers to have success." .



.

What motor and prop do you guys run in N2 spec' Hydro??

[Greg Schweers]

I'm in the northwest and I've burned up six UL1 motors this year. I do think the quality of the motors has changed. At the beginning of the year I decided to change the motors in my LSH and my spec rigger -- both boats ran the same motor all year long (13 races). The first race of this year, the third heat, the motor burns up in LSH. The second heat the motor burns up in the rigger. Race two: new motors in both boats, running the same props as last year, both motors fried. Third race: Bill and I decided to try the new Castle Mamba 2 car controllers. We thought this controller would work good because it's waterproof and has a built-in fan. I set the timing to 8. First heat, the motor burns up. Bill's boat comes in and the temperature is 165. He runs it the second heat and his motor burns up. So, for the hell of it, I put a 240 ICE in the LSH, now I'm running the timing to 6 (I'm a little gun-shy now). First heat the motor comes in at 145, pulled the controller out and stuck the Castle 120 back in the boat and I also depitched the prop back to 3.0. We had out Gold Cup Race a week and a half ago; we have two lap time trials. I decided to stick a 447 to try for two laps; the boat goes 1-1/4 lap, the motor burns up. What bugs me is that I ran all last year with the same motor and prop without any problems. I've sent back 11 motors so far this year; they did replace three under warranty and a discount on the others. With the motors I've run this year it's like a new learning curve. The problem is I run six boats and five of them have UL1 motors and the 1/10 scale has a Pro-Boat.

[DPeterson]

Greg - are you serious or are you pulling our leg?

[Darin Jordan]

Greg - are you serious or are you pulling our leg?

Doug, He's serious... I've seen some of it. It's very odd...

If you guys recall, the same thing happened to Pro Boat a few years ago... BJ26 motors were burning up left and right... Manufacturer changed the process for assembling the stators... essentially SKIPPING epoxying in the wires to the iron... They had shortened the magnets in the rotor as well. Luckily, I disected one and caught it pretty quickly and they (Pro Boat) were able to get them made correctly again.

All that said, it's still a decent and fun form of racing, locally especially. It makes a good place for those with off-the-shelf equipment to have a fun, competitive day, and in most venues, I think they can be reasonably successful, or at least enough to try to learn to race. At a National level, the purpose builts have the obvious advantage, but a well setup and driven RTR can still be competitive.

If this economy would ever get back on track... I think that more would venture from the RTR/P-Ltd formula into more open classes, but until that happens, I think this may have helped keep the hobby alive a bit.

Just my view from the lense I have available. :)

Looking forward, Doug, to seeing that new Trailer of yours parked next to Haines next year! Should provide the rest of us with some nice WiFi, Hi-Def, surround-sound entertainment! :)

[DPeterson]

When Greg said he stuck a 447 on the boat i thought for sure he was kidding. As aggressive as I am I can't imagine a 447 on a 2030. Must be really - really worked.

Darin - Looking forward to meeting you finally at Michigan. My trailer will be mostly set up for hauling as 3-4 of us travel together. However once we get the RC stuff out we will have fold out couch's, beer cooler, disco lights and a stripper pole. :) I expect our pit to be a popular area. :)

Doug

[Darin Jordan]

When Greg said he stuck a 447 on the boat i thought for sure he was kidding. As aggressive as I am I can't imagine a 447 on a 2030. Must be really - really worked.

I think that his props are generally worked and reduced in diameter. Not too sure beyond that.


...and a stripper pole. :) I expect our pit to be a popular area. :)

I think you just one-up'd Ken there on that one... :)

[properchopper]

When Greg said he stuck a 447 on the boat i thought for sure he was kidding. As aggressive as I am I can't imagine a 447 on a 2030. Must be really - really worked.

Darin - Looking forward to meeting you finally at Michigan. My trailer will be mostly set up for hauling as 3-4 of us travel together. However once we get the RC stuff out we will have fold out couch's, beer cooler, disco lights and a stripper pole. :) I expect our pit to be a popular area. :)

Doug

Hey Doug, Be careful on the pole, it's bad for your back.

[properchopper]

When Greg said he stuck a 447 on the boat i thought for sure he was kidding. As aggressive as I am I can't imagine a 447 on a 2030. Must be really - really worked.

Darin - Looking forward to meeting you finally at Michigan. My trailer will be mostly set up for hauling as 3-4 of us travel together. However once we get the RC stuff out we will have fold out couch's, beer cooler, disco lights and a stripper pole. :) I expect our pit to be a popular area. :)

Doug

Hey Doug, At your age I'd be careful on the pole, it's bad for your back.

[DPeterson]

LOL Tony. I have been working out so I will be in good shape for the pole dance. Can't wait to show off my tight under cheeks and such.

I am traveling all week living in hotel rooms and working weird hours. We'll hook up by phone next week.

Doug

[LuckyDuc]

I wish that there was a born on date or lot # stamped on each motor so we could tell what batch a particular motor belongs to... Similar to ammunition lot #s.

[Mike Caruso]

DOB I would sure like to see that myself.

[Mike Caruso]

........................

105117

lol