FE and Radios question.

[egneg]

We had an incident today at a informal club run. I should explain that the club runs both scale and FE electric boats. It involved 2 folks on the same frequency and the frequency tree was not set up. We run every Sunday but different members show up when they can so the tree is not always available. I was thinking that with 2.4 GHz radios being very reasonable price wise (such as the Tactic) that boats capable of doing more than say 25 mph would be required to use them. As a matter of fact I think it's a good idea for all clubs that race as well whether it's NAMBA or IMPBA. What do you guys think ... would this be an unreasonable requirement?

[Diegoboy]

I absolutely agree 55715

55716

[Diegoboy]

DX3C for me...

[wrongway]

:thumbdown:

[Diegoboy]

The "tree" referred to is a frequency tree. It consists of a board (sometimes elevated on a pole, hence the term "tree") with clothespins for each available channel. Before you turn on your radio, you MUST have the clothespin for that freq attached to your antenna. If your freq clothespin is not available on the tree, it means that channel is in use.
I too have heard all the 2.4 myths being spread. That's one reason they came up with the Marine Receivers. (MRxxxx). It solves any issues with communications with a boat AND any rumors true or not.

[Diegoboy]

example of a freq tree

55876

[wrongway]

Yes I know what a freq tree is. i been in boating since 1978.
Hence my point that it is the responsability of all boaters to know
what freq each one is on! 2.4 is not a cure all. this is like forcing everyone
to run the same model of boat, or to only drink bud beer!
Pushing 2.4 because a couple guys screw*d up is wrong!
The tree i was refering to is the tree with leaves that blocks a 2.4ghz signal.

[skellyo]

The tree i was refering to is the tree with leaves that blocks a 2.4ghz signal.

If you're running a FE on a pond/lake where a tree will block your signal, you've got bigger problems to worry about than frequencies to begin with.

It is possible, albeit highly unlikely, to have problems with 2.4GHz radios. However, if you run AM or FM and someone steps on your freq and channel, you will absolutely have a problem and likely damage hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in equipment.

[RaceMechaniX]

I don't believe this should be a mandate for any boater. Many guys in our district are still running 27/75 MHz radios and some have mutliple radios to cover many boats. It's unfair to ask them to switch and purchase all new equipment. IMO time and technology will eventually coerce these guys into switching.

I'll bring up another point: All 2.4 radios are not built to the same quality. While the Futaba, Airtronics and Spectrum brands typically are very high quality I have been seeing some popularity in the clone 2.4 radios which sell for $20. I am more terrified to race against someone with a cheap 2.4 radio than a well built 27/75 MHz radio.

It used to be common practice to call out your frequency before powering on to check if other competitors were on your channel if no frequency clip system was being used. Good practices have fallen by the wayside.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Its expensive to make the switch. If you are a worried person, make the switch yourself. then let the other am/fm users fight it out.

I did a bunch of years back and it was the best thing I ever did. I no longer have to worry if someone is on my freq or if I power up to check something having to search for a clip.

[Insaniac]

When I used 75MHz FM (in the past) I always kept a frequency scanner running...it didn't prevent kids showing up and turning on across the public pond, but it helped...

[U1Racing]

Yes I know what a freq tree is. i been in boating since 1978.
Hence my point that it is the responsability of all boaters to know
what freq each one is on! 2.4 is not a cure all. this is like forcing everyone
to run the same model of boat, or to only drink bud beer!
Pushing 2.4 because a couple guys screw*d up is wrong!
The tree i was refering to is the tree with leaves that blocks a 2.4ghz signal.

There are different models of radios to choose from, i'd rather consider it like a boat class, simply like saying, the class will run a certain motor and you pick the hull!! and 2.4GHz is as good as any 75MHz signal!! and the radios are no harder to use than a digital 75 MHz radio!! further more the signal from a 2.4GHz radio is broadcast out the same way that the signal is broadcast out of a 75MHz radio so if that " tree with leaves" blocks my 2.4 Signal will also block your 75MHz signal!! I'm not saying we should make everyone go to 2.4GHz i'm just pointing out that it has all the same benefits as 75MHz but you also have the benefit of knowing that interference is not going to kill your boat and make you *!***!***!***!** your pants!!

[wrongway]

:focus:

[Diegoboy]

Yes I know what a freq tree is. i been in boating since 1978.
Hence my point that it is the responsability of all boaters to know
what freq each one is on! 2.4 is not a cure all. this is like forcing everyone
to run the same model of boat, or to only drink bud beer!
Pushing 2.4 because a couple guys screw*d up is wrong!
The tree i was refering to is the tree with leaves that blocks a 2.4ghz signal.


Or like forcing everyone to use the same motors and esc's??

[Flying Scotsman]

I still run a high quality FM radio on quite a lot of my boats, but I did switch to a Spectrum marine TX and RX system for my new boats and has been said before quality comes at a cost for marine applications.

Douggie

[iamandrew]

2.4 ghz all the way, seem to have less power consumption.
Even running cheap crappy 2.4 is still by far better than my old futaba and sanwa gear.
havent had any line of sight issues either.
Ive also never had an electric car or boat "run out of control" because usually, as in almost 99.9% of the time, when using electric speed controllers, they die and stop compleatly. unlike gas boats where the throttle cable can get jammed or somthing like that

[Boaterguy]

I have never had a problem with either of my two HK $22.50 radios, even whilst submerged (while in a balloon). I have never been able to get a 75 or 25mhz radio to work despite owning 3 of them and spending up to $150 on one of them. it could be me in general, because other things break also, the old ipod shuffle (first gen) does not work with me, I have broken two despite treating them properly. I run 2.4, I don't care what anyone else runs because they will never interfere with me. at my club pond, there is a spot not one am/fm user would dare go near, 2.4 users drive right through it.

[raptor347]

The problem here isn't the equipment. It's user error. I never had problems with my 27/50/75mhz systems. I don't have problems with my 2.4ghz radio gear either. Our biggest problem is educating new boaters and maintaining safe operation practices for we more experienced boaters.

I know several boaters that would love to convert to 2.4. But for long standing modelers, the expense of re-outfitting a fleet is pretty prohibitive. When you start talking about several $1000's to upgrade modules and replace 20 years worth of collected equipment it's easy to understand not switching. Especially when the existing equipment is well maintained and functions perfectly.

Until the FCC takes the 27 and 75 bands away for RC operation I say we need to continue to support the safe use of existing equipment.

My .02

[wrongway]

Yes Exactly raptor347, Egneg ask if it is unreasonable to force non 2.4ghz users to move
to 2.4!

My final opinion is this:

To force 2.4 on anyone is wrong period! FE boats are now going well over 60
mph.
They are like little bullets. They are capable of jumping a bank and killing someone!
Are we going to ban FE because they can be a danger to the public or because someone new that doesnt know what they are doing
is running one??
Steven has also made the good point that Good radio's are expensive. Wether we boaters want to admit it or not
RC Airplanes and cars are far more popular now than boats! Many people make there living in Rc Boats!
We should be doing everything we can to get new people into rc boating rather than pushing people away
by forcing new radios on them.

[Doug Smock]

Or like forcing everyone to use the same motors and esc's??

Still hung up huh Danny?:frusty::olleyes:

"Until the FCC takes the 27 and 75 bands away for RC operation I say we need to continue to support the safe use of existing equipment".:rules: Right!


Build an additional frequency board fellas.:wink: It doesn't have to be anything real fancy.

Doug

[Diegoboy]

Still hung up huh Danny?:frusty::olleyes:


...just a wee bit

55934

[Flying Scotsman]

The problem here isn't the equipment. It's user error. I never had problems with my 27/50/75mhz systems. I don't have problems with my 2.4ghz radio gear either. Our biggest problem is educating new boaters and maintaining safe operation practices for we more experienced boaters.

I know several boaters that would love to convert to 2.4. But for long standing modelers, the expense of re-outfitting a fleet is pretty prohibitive. When you start talking about several $1000's to upgrade modules and replace 20 years worth of collected equipment it's easy to understand not switching. Especially when the existing equipment is well maintained and functions perfectly.

Until the FCC takes the 27 and 75 bands away for RC operation I say we need to continue to support the safe use of existing equipment.

My .02


Brian, as usual on the button and I have not experienced problems with my FM system and as he mentions the cost is prohibitive for owners of large fleets. The real point he made was to use common sense in operating any radio system.

Douggie

[longballlumber]

I dissagree regardless... but, how would/could you police this ruling or "force" someone to change? Especially with all of the 27 and 75 equipment already out there. I guess we would need a radio burning at town hall....

People have got to take responsibility for their own equipment and the use of said equipment.

I still run a Futaba 3UCP on 27mHz and just last year I took everything I owned (2x TX's and 10 PCM RX's) to a local guy to have them checked out and retuned. It cost me more to have it serviced than if I would have tried to sell it out right. However, it would cost me near $2500 (estimate) for direct replacments of Futaba's equal 2.4gHz stuff...

They have been doing this on 27 and 75 for EONS... It's the users not the radio equipment itself.

Later,
Mike

[Diegoboy]

You can have the best tuned FM money can buy. You can take all the precautions there are to take. You can enforce all the regulations necessary but in the end, your $800 boat will be destroyed by a simple flick of the switch when someone else turns on the same freq.

I am never in favor of rules that limit anyone, but if it means saving my investment from total destruction by someone elses carelessness (or mine) then okay.

[longballlumber]

You can have the best tuned FM money can buy. You can take all the precautions there are to take. You can enforce all the regulations necessary but in the end, your $800 boat will be destroyed by a simple flick of the switch when someone else turns on the same freq.

So buying a $20 radio from Hong Kong with zero tech support in your $800 boat solves all of those problems.... Not buying it!

They have been running RC boats, cars, and planes for longer than most if not all that are registerd on this board (40+ years). If it's worked that long, it can continue to work. This just goes to show being involved with a club in conjunction with IMPBA or NAMBA is a good thing. They have rules in place for a reason!

Later,
Mike

[Doby]

For those that want to switch over but think the cost is to high....

1) 1 Tactic radio + receiver around 75 bucks (a proven, reliable radio over the past few years)
2) Extra receivers around 20 bucks each
3) Having no interference...priceless....

Frequency boards work well WHEN THEY ARE USED PROPERLY by everyone.....but there is no guarentee that everyone will always remember.

And when its just a bunch of folks bashing their boats...remembering small things like that doesn't always happen and accidents are sometimes the result.

Rather than try and have everyone else change over to 2.4 systems...change your own and problem solved (well at least your problem)

[Diegoboy]

So buying a $20 radio from Hong Kong with zero tech support in your $800 boat solves all of those problems.... Not buying it!

They have been running RC boats, cars, and planes for longer than most if not all that are registerd on this board (40+ years). If it's worked that long, it can continue to work. This just goes to show being involved with a club in conjunction with IMPBA or NAMBA is a good thing. They have rules in place for a reason!

Later,
Mike

I am looking into a DX3C. All I'm saying is that a DX3C would have 100% prevented my loss.

[Chenige]

I see some of the 2.4 units have telemetry for temps, voltage and RPM. Is anyone using this?

[Rumdog]

I am looking into a DX3C. All I'm saying is that a DX3C would have 100% prevented my loss.

So buy it! Doesn't mean the other guy needs it. Personal preference right? Why try to take that away?

[Diegoboy]

So buy it! Doesn't mean the other guy needs it. Personal preference right? Why try to take that away?
I will. And if your boat slams into mine because of your radio conflicts with another radio, we will have to talk.

Just sayin'

[JMSCARD]

Ok so anyone putting their boat in the water (even if they are using a 2.4ghz radio) and knows a Frequency tree is not in use while others are operating on am/fm is taking their own risk...

I mean really? at our clubs flying field we don't have this problem... why you ask... because we are SUPER SUPER strict on using the frequency "clothespins" ..... we even require 2.4ghz users to have a 2.4ghz pin on their radio... why you ask.. just because... it forces habit, and its the right thing to do...

So... if someone put their boat in the water even if you are using a 2.4ghz radio around other people using boats who are running fm/am with no frequency tree....then you are taking a risk...period... done.... and you have no reason to be upset if your models goes crashing full speed into shore... or if you get crashed into... its your responsibility to also make sure the place your are running is doing so in a safe manner....I am pretty sure IMPBA probably won't cover ANY damages should something occur when folks are not following proper procedures either... so I think the "toy" boat is the least of our concerns... the bystanders being injured could cost ya a heck of a lot more then a $800 boat.... just sayin'.

[longballlumber]

I will. And if your boat slams into mine because of your radio conflicts with another radio, we will have to talk.

Just sayin'

so i am curious, what happens if YOUR boat slams into someone due to and issue out of your control? Radio issues CAN happen, even with 2.4...

Just sayin'

[Diegoboy]

We are not eliminating accidents with this statement. Just trying to reduce them. 2.4 may have issues resulting in accidents, but it is FAR less than AM or FM.
Enforcing a seatbelt law will not save everyone's life, just decrease the amount of unnecessary deaths.

...and because I started this new trend, "Just sayin'

[raptor347]

I'm thinking back on the race last weekend. The three control issues that occurred were due to poor procedures and poor maintenance. Two of three had 2.4 systems in the boats.

I'm not going to get into the contact caused by poor setup/driving of "in control" boats.

Most all out of control issues that I've seen have nothing to do with radio transmission frequency and everything to do with proper practices, setup and maintenance. In some ways the advent of 2.4ghz systems has made us very lax in how we go about our modeling.

Ultimately, if you don't want to have a chance of coming in contact with another boat, don't put it in the water with them.

[Darin Jordan]

I'm thinking back on the race last weekend. The three control issues that occurred were due to poor procedures and poor maintenance. Two of three had 2.4 systems in the boats.

I'm not going to get into the contact caused by poor setup/driving of "in control" boats.

Most all out of control issues that I've seen have nothing to do with radio transmission frequency and everything to do with proper practices, setup and maintenance. In some ways the advent of 2.4ghz systems has made us very lax in how we go about our modeling.

Ultimately, if you don't want to have a chance of coming in contact with another boat, don't put it in the water with them.

This forum needs a "LIKE" button! Perfectly stated!

[Insaniac]

The new Futaba FHSS 2.4 GHz is only 70 bucks!

[egneg]

It looks like the opinions are fairly evenly divided. I was thinking this would be the easiest way to prevent these sort of things from happening. Yes it involves some cost for folks running fast boats but it's a much cheaper option than replacing a boat and prevents hard feelings and finger pointing among club members. To me this is a cheap price to pay to maintain friendships and goodwill within the club.

[Doug Smock]

Having spent a several years in a Scale, Sail, and FE club before joining the Atlanta Club, I'm wondering what rules you have in place to keep other accidents from happening. Are you dividing pond time Scale, Sail & FE or is it a free for all?
Doug
http://www.vac-u-boat.com/club.htm

[egneg]

Having spent a several years in a Scale, Sail, and FE club before joining the Atlanta Club, I'm wondering what rules you have in place to keep other accidents from happening. Are you dividing pond time Scale, Sail & FE or is it a free for all?
Doug
http://www.vac-u-boat.com/club.htm

Good point Doug, it's been a free for all. Up until now there have been very few FE boats and we always run much farther out than the scale boats. As members get faster boats and new members join I agree that we have to do something and maybe allotting certain times for each would help. Then again whats to stop a guy from checking his boat on shore while another is in the water. At regular events we always have the tree set up but like I stated earlier at the informal Sunday runs this is harder to control. I use 2.4 so I guess it's partly my fault for not maintaining the rules among members.

http://capehenryrcboatclub.webs.com/membershiproster.htm

[Flying Scotsman]

Chuck, this is a great thread and all the responses have their merit. I personally will not remove my FM gear from my older boats and as I stated all my new boats run on 2.4 ghz. As an aside almost all new RTR boats run with 2.4 ghz radios and the old FM systems may now be free of an idiot firing up his boat on the same frequency.

Douggie

[drwayne]

Poll: FE and Radio frequency
This poll will close on 08-07-2011 at 06:49 AM Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

0 Yes, I agree
0 No, I disagree
0 Undecided

Ok, what is the question ?
Should we abandon RC and return to tether boats ? Yes, I agree !


Trees, boards, pins/pegs, Tx impounds .. whatever makes you communicate with the other users.

During these 33years in RC .. . every freq conflict Ive seen is due organic error ... a failure to communicate.



Wayne

[wparsons]

Just to play devil's advocate (since all my boats that I actually run are on 2.4ghz now), how many people do a proper range test with a 2.4ghz system every time you're out with it? How do you even do a range test with something like the Tactic system? I know how to do it on my DX6i, but I'm quite certain you can't even do it on the Tactic TX.

As RTR packages get cheaper and better quality I fear that basic things like setting them up, range testing the TX/RX every time out, proper field/pond etiquette, etc are all getting lost.

If it's an organized club and someone has their TX on without a frequency clip make them face consequences. If it happens a second time they're gone for good. IMO it doesn't matter if it's cars, boats, planes or helis, the consequences of it can be quite severe, hitting an innocent bystander will get your club shut down in a huge hurry.

Just a side note regarding signal blocking, yes all AM/FM/PCM (2.4ghz is PCM) systems are based on line of sight. The difference is that the shorter wavelength (2.4ghz) waves are much easier to block and won't penetrate some surfaces that 27 and 75mhz will easily. C/F and water are two "surfaces" that 2.4ghz systems have a bit problem getting through, but 27 and 75mhz have no issues. Also because of the shorter wave lengths there's a bigger "shadow" behind any object with no signal coverage.

I do totally agree that if you're concerned about signal coverage to a boat behind a tree something far worse has already happened :D

[Doug B]

I dont see anything at all wrong with specifying 2.4ghz tech at race events, and this comes from someone who is about to put FM receivers in both his boats (so I can free up my 2.4ghz rxs for use in my offroad cars)