Solder temps & ?

[Steven Vaccaro]

McMaster-Carr lists some high temp solder. Does anyone know what is the highest temp solder a 80 watt iron will melt?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#general-purpose-solder/=d551x3

[m4a1usr]

Depends on what tip you have on it. The heating element itself will get over 700 F no problem unless your iron is a work station with a potentiameter/ temp controller on it. Then its variable. Using an 1/8" pointed tip on a 80 watt iron you will have no problem using the tin/lead/silver solder. I dont see any reason to use that stuff though. The 60/40 stuff will suffice for what we do. If your using the big 3/16" chisel tip then getting above 600 F may become an issue.

John

[longballlumber]

Very good discussion topic… I have some theoretical questions.

It’s a known fact that most racers are removing the 3mm-4mm motor connectors on the Spec stuff because of solder melting at the connector. What if we were to use a solder with a higher melting point rather than changing connectors?

We use a solder with higher silver content when we need strength we don't really need strength at the connectors… Does using a different Tin/Lead combo to promote higher melting point make sense do to the current we are trying to run thru these joints…

This is the stuff I like... We all can stand to learn something out of this thread… :thumbup1:

Later, :Peace_Sign:
Mike

[Steven Vaccaro]

Depends on what tip you have on it. The heating element itself will get over 700 F no problem unless your iron is a work station with a potentiameter/ temp controller on it. Then its variable. Using an 1/8" pointed tip on a 80 watt iron you will have no problem using the tin/lead/silver solder. I dont see any reason to use that stuff though. The 60/40 stuff will suffice for what we do. If your using the big 3/16" chisel tip then getting above 600 F may become an issue.

John

I'm tired of having connectors getting loose. I've upgraded the connectors from 3.5 to 4.0mm in my jae and still the connectors come back in hot. Most times the shrink keeps the connector and the wire connected, but I know the lead has become liquid, because the wires are no longer nice and straight inside the connector.

Right now I'm using the radio shack stuff.

I'm thinking of trying this stuff.


40
60
__
0.062"
460° F

[Steven Vaccaro]

Can one of you smart guys tell me if this chart is accurate?

http://www.eddy-current.com/condres.htm

[Steven Vaccaro]

Another question I have is "How" the wire should be inside the connector.
Right now if I have a 14g wire inside a 4mm connector there is a bunch of extra space inside the bullet hole, normally thats filed with lead.
I'm wondering if it would be better to remove more of the wire insulation and "bunch" up the wire and jam it inside the hole so there isnt so much extra space.

[teach]

Another question I have is "How" the wire should be inside the connector.
Right now if I have a 14g wire inside a 4mm connector there is a bunch of extra space inside the bullet hole, normally thats filed with lead.
I'm wondering if it would be better to remove more of the wire insulation and "bunch" up the wire and jam it inside the whole so there isnt so much extra space.

Actually that makes alot of sense. Current would have to flow through the solder to the conector back through the solder to the other wire....might be alot of resistance through the solder itself. Pretty neat subject.

[Lockk]

Can one of you smart guys tell me if this chart is accurate?

http://www.eddy-current.com/condres.htm

I have two different books that list resistivity of metals I checked about 20 different values and that chart appears to be correct.
Keep in mind I'm not one of the smart guys that's why I hang on to old text and reference books from college days!

[Steven Vaccaro]

Smart enough in my book, thanks!!


One of my favorite sites is
http://www.mcmaster.com

The descriptions of their items is unmatched.

I'm going to try some of my next high current parallel connectors with this copper rod.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-rods/=d5b1kn

[Jimmy Sterling]

Actually that makes alot of sense. Current would have to flow through the solder to the conector back through the solder to the other wire....might be alot of resistance through the solder itself. Pretty neat subject.

Interesting subject, going off topic a little I have ask the question myself a few times and I believe that the "space" inside a connector that is packed full of solder is where most of the heat is produced from a connector more then the contact itself (assuming decent contact) One of the "techs" I used to work with asked why I dont place the stripped cable into a brass sleeve before inserting it into the connector to take up the space. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say on the topic

Jimmy

[Steven Vaccaro]

Interesting subject, going off topic a little I have ask the question myself a few times and I believe that the "space" inside a connector that is packed full of solder is where most of the heat is produced from a connector more then the contact itself (assuming decent contact) One of the "techs" I used to work with asked why I dont place the stripped cable into a brass sleeve before inserting it into the connector to take up the space. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say on the topicJimmy seems copper is the way to go.

[Lockk]

My background is electrical and power electric engineering so I'll give the simple answer ( cause at my age I can rarely give the complex one anymore! :laugh: ), the
connectors and that's any connection including the soldered joint is were the most heat will be generated along the path of electron flow to the motor as these areas
have the highest resistance. It wont make a difference (Appreciable and only measurable with some really good gear) if you fill the bullet connector with solder or fold
the wire and use less solder. Obviously a good solder connection (no cold joint) will be a big help.

A bullet connector is not a great connection it relies solely on friction but it's what we have to work with and for what we build it's plenty good the key is using the right
solder. Here is a good read on solder the concept to understand is solidus temperature, liquidus temperature as it relates to solder rating you can ignore the portion
about downhole electronics its not really important but all the other info is really good. http://www.logwell.com/tech/servtips/solder.html

Hopefully this adds to the discussion

[m4a1usr]

Another question I have is "How" the wire should be inside the connector.
Right now if I have a 14g wire inside a 4mm connector there is a bunch of extra space inside the bullet hole, normally thats filed with lead.
I'm wondering if it would be better to remove more of the wire insulation and "bunch" up the wire and jam it inside the hole so there isnt so much extra space.

While there is nothing wrong with doubling over the wire to "fill" the gap, as that will reduce the amount of solder needed, you wont change the heat issue that is plaguing your joints. Something else is causing the heat. But lets assume its some circuit resistance. Could be the very connectors themselves, due to design/ material construction. Not sure. But 14 ga wire is really suited for 30 to 40 amp applications. So if your pulling more than those amps that might be in itself a contibutor.

But my suspicion is that the solder used in the original bullets you are desoldering and replacing is a RoHS lead free compliant that the European and Chinese have been using for several years (the ero folks since the late 90's/ early 2000's). Thus the lead free tinned ends of your wires may very well not be blending with the current solder you are using,.... so the while the joints might appear to not have cold solder joints where you can see the work thats been done, inside the conductor strands the "new" solder never melts correctly to bond. That is certainly a posibility. And the way to fix that is to cut off any wire that has old solder. Try it with clean copper wire or wire that is tinned with the newer solder you have on hand and then fill the bullet with as much as possible. I guess what I am saying is the likely culprit is the contaminant solder since its lead free and your adding a different blend from the original. Just my 2 cents.

John

[Steven Vaccaro]

Thanks for the info. i will be reading the article and trying a few new things. Especially cutting off of the soldered ends

[T.C.]

Use the highest temp. highest silver content solder you can find.
If you look at a conductivity chart silver is at the top.
The solder doesn't have to come with flux inside it, you can buy rosin flux at Radio shack.
We found some with 6% silver.
T.C.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Use the highest temp. highest silver content solder you can find.
If you look at a conductivity chart silver is at the top.
The solder doesn't have to come with flux inside it, you can buy rosin flux at Radio shack.
We found some with 6% silver.
T.C. Where did you find the 6% stuff?

[Steven Vaccaro]

Where did you find the 6% stuff?

found some http://www.silfos.com/products/catalog/Clean-n-Brite-6-1lb-p-179.html

[T.C.]

Steven go to this address, it is for the Harris "AKA Stay Brite" solder company Its not the same as what comes in the kits sold through the hobby industry as it contains more silver.
A Stay-Brite kit only contains 4% silver this contains 5.5-6% silver and you can find it on line at a decent price.
I use for electrical as well as all my wire drives as I am not comfortable with gluing them.
This solder can be used either with acid or rosin flux and is just below the annealing point for metals, so you don't weaken the wire when you solder using this. http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/~/media/Files/PDF/Spec%20Sheets/Soldering/Lead-free%20Solders/STAY-BRITE8Spec.ashx
Hope this helps?
T.C.

[sailr]

ABSOLUTELY AGREE! I have gone to silver solder on all my connectors. I also re-tin the wires with the silver solder, not relying on the non lead crap from China. It takes a LOT of heat to use the silver solder. I recently bought a big mama gun at Radio Shack that makes short work of it! I melt the solder into the bullet connector and then insert the wire and while holding the gun on the connector, work the wire up and down a bit to ensure it is completely covered with solder. I haven't had a connector come unsoldered for any reason since switching to silver solder that is higher silver content than the stuff from Radio Shack. It is called "silver bearing". It works pretty well also but the last time I was at Radio Shack they no longer had it.


Use the highest temp. highest silver content solder you can find.
If you look at a conductivity chart silver is at the top.
The solder doesn't have to come with flux inside it, you can buy rosin flux at Radio shack.
We found some with 6% silver.
T.C.

[T.C.]

Here's an evil-bay link to what we use, if you look around you can find it cheeper, I think we payed 70.00 shipped ?
The deal is most other "silver bearing solders" are low silver content, this has 5.5-6%. Novak only has 3%, Stay-brite kits only have 4%.
This is the most bang for the buck in a lower metal safe melting point solder I have found, if ya get to hot you start anealing the metal and thats not good for a wire drive. (or electrical parts)
T.C. http://cgi.ebay.com/Harris-Stay-Brite-8-1-16-Silver-Solder-/250844553228?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D1316088193870591491

[Insaniac]

Steve,
The 40/60 is certainly better than 37/63 (eutectic). I had the same problem running a UL-1 motor on 4S in an FE-30. The only way to "keep-it-together" was to go to 5.5mm bullets. They still get pretty warm but the solder doesn't melt.

[longballlumber]

So the question is; did you change to silver solder and keep the 3.5mm-4mm connectors or did you go up to the 5.5mm connectors too...


I still have the question of; Is it the solder quaility or is the connector creating the heat?

[Steven Vaccaro]

So the question is; did you change to silver solder and keep the 3.5mm-4mm connectors or did you go up to the 5.5mm connectors too...


I still have the question of; Is it the solder quality or is the connector creating the heat?


Thats the same question I'm after. I've tried different connectors. From different manufacturers. All of them are getting very hot.
Hot enough to say that the connector must be a major area of power loss. I've been soldering for 30 years. I dont(or hope) think its not my solder method.
Andy Kunz said that the fix is a connector with much larger surface area. I may try some castle 8mm bullets in the jae, the castle bullets are very heavy, which I hope helps dissipate the heat.

[T.C.]

If this is a spec. setup ya better check the temps at the motor leads, I would bet the heat is going into the motor and the motor insulation is starting to melt.
Time for a smaller prop or the boats to wet if this is what's happening, I would say you are at the limits of the system.
Unless you can put heavier wire going into the motor to handle the load and keep the heat down?
T.C.

[Steven Vaccaro]

If this is a spec. setup ya better check the temps at the motor leads, I would bet the heat is going into the motor and the motor insulation is starting to melt.
Time for a smaller prop or the boats to wet if this is what's happening, I would say you are at the limits of the system.
Unless you can put heavier wire going into the motor to handle the load and keep the heat down?
T.C.

Boat screams. Motor is well within temps. Boat has well over 3 dozen packs gone into it. Thats the strange thing.

[T.C.]

Eventually you will get to where the connectors stay on just due to mass and high temp solder, but then What will happen is the wire insulation will melt and short out where they go into the can.
Take the end off the motor and put double or triple layers of shrink tubing on the motor leads, that will help, but it's not a fix.
When ya find the answer I'd like to know ?
T.C.

[Doug Smock]

.
Andy Kunz said that the fix is a connector with much larger surface area.
I agree. I refuse to use any connector in my boats with the thin springs (fuse links lol) around them like the bananna plugs.
We use the 5.5s from this place called OSE on our limited boats and the hot connectors are a thing of the past.
Doug

[jcald2000]

Bigger is always better, 200 amps thur 8mm bullets = 115 degrees F.

[sjslhill]

This is what I use Steven, Radio Shack on line has the best price. 80 watts is plenty to work with this.

[longballlumber]

Smart enough in my book, thanks!!


One of my favorite sites is
http://www.mcmaster.com

The descriptions of their items is unmatched.

I'm going to try some of my next high current parallel connectors with this copper rod.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-rods/=d5b1kn


Steven,

I am going to put in an order from McMaster Carr, what diameter of rod will work in the 5.5's with the hole? Right now I only have the half moon version of connectors, so I can't measure.

Thanks,
Mike

[Steven Vaccaro]

I'm not sure which connectors you have, but with the connectors we sell the hole is about .130". So I will be ordering .125" solid rod.

[properchopper]

5577855779


Eventually you will get to where the connectors stay on just due to mass and high temp solder, but then What will happen is the wire insulation will melt and short out where they go into the can.
Take the end off the motor and put double or triple layers of shrink tubing on the motor leads, that will help, but it's not a fix.
When ya find the answer I'd like to know ?
T.C.

I routinely do this on spec motors, but where the wire spreads out into the windings seems to be the place that overheats and shorts. This spray epoxy insulating coating goes on and penetrates windings; I've used it on a Neu with the silicone noodle wire they're now using when a motor had the silicone split inside the endbell exit hole and so far/so good.

I use 62/36/2 solder from a local electronic supply store; flows well with a 40W iron and only $3.49 a tube.

It seems that the only 5.5 solder joint failures I've had came from poorly mating el-cheapo bullets that overheat from incomplete mating surface contact - I now hand-pick my connectors for the best fit.

[longballlumber]

Thanks Steven,

I will end up ordering the connectors from you since mine have half of the opening cut away.

Mike

[properchopper]

Thanks Steven,

I will end up ordereing the connectors from you since mine have half of the opening cut away.

Mike

I'm beginning to think that the cutaway connectors, which I once thought were preferrable because they seemed easier to solder, are not as substantial as the ones with the holes. I have tons of the better (holes) connectors on bonkered stuff that I'm going to recycle and use now that I got a small butane torch which makes them easy to unsolder.