View Full Version : Apparition upgrade
I just received my apparition from hk today and I am very impressed with the quality of the boat. I plan to run it stock for a bit to get my feet wet but ultimately I will upgrade.
My goal is to hit 45 to 50 mph on 4s voltage. My plan is to upgrade to a 4074 2150kv motor and match with the appropriate prop, I'm thinking x438, to hit my goal speed on 4s. I know the motor can handle that prop, I'm just not sure about the 125 amp esc I have?...
Anyone out there run a similar setup with a 125 amp esc? If so how is it holding up? Is there a way I can determin if my esc can handle my prop/motor/voltage combo?
I am also considering a 3674 1900kv tacon. With the right prop this motor seems llike it would be a good 4s motor.
Alexgar
06-22-2011, 10:35 PM
Don't think the esc will hold up I wouldn't push it over 100 amps and not sure if that motor will fit my cc1515 is 68mm ant touches the hatch I'm running a m545 prop and it probably runs in the 45-50 range
The esc I got is the hobbyking ss 125, constant 125 and burst 150. I think the ss 125 can handle the 3674 1900kv on 4s, of course depending on prop. I'm not sure about it handling the 4074 2150kv... As far as it fitting I have seen other builds using the 4074 without fit issues. I'm not sure if they were using a different mount, I'm sure I can mod it to fit.
Alexgar
06-22-2011, 11:21 PM
Cool I'd like to see it when you get done
Cool I'd like to see it when you get done
For sure I will post pics and results when I get it up and running. Waiting for esc to come in from china, during the meantime I plan to figure out my motor/prop. Leaning towards 3674 1900kv with a x440 or x442 prop.
Alexgar
06-23-2011, 01:24 AM
Waiting on 2 orders from hk the wait is killing me
Got my esc from hk today. Motor on the way, 3674 1900kv. Gonna run on 4s 2x2s 30c. Gonna run some cheap turnigy aqua props 29x42 and see how it runs. Eventually will upgrade to x440 or x442 prop.
I'm hoping to get up to 40 tp 45 mph.
Boaterguy
06-25-2011, 08:06 PM
I wouldve gone with the 200A esc, they are so cheap that might as well go big, you never know what you will put in there.
I wouldve gone with the 200A esc, they are so cheap that might as well go big, you never know what you will put in there.
Yeah it was only 10 bux more... I thought about it after... I was/am on a tight budget so I just got what I needed to reach my goal. Its my first boat and all so I'm sure ill be happy with the setup I'm putting together for a while. In the future if I want to go faster ill upgrade, but I think I'm set for a while.
Boaterguy
06-26-2011, 09:52 AM
Yeah it was only 10 bux more... I thought about it after... I was/am on a tight budget so I just got what I needed to reach my goal. Its my first boat and all so I'm sure ill be happy with the setup I'm putting together for a while. In the future if I want to go faster ill upgrade, but I think I'm set for a while.
haha, don't worry, you'll get bit by the bug.
Oh well, Just build another boat so you can buy the 200's :bounce:
Haha I have been bitten! All my land riggs, lst and slash, are brushless to the max! I didn't even run the stock motor in my app! I'm use to 40+ mph so I figure if I get it there ill be good for a while.
Yeah next boat I think will be the genesis.
siberianhusky
06-26-2011, 11:04 AM
With the Tacon motors you have to pay attention as to wether you are getting a 2 pole motor, the cheaper ones that are not labeled LBP are the 2 pole motors, these ones will have higher amp draw for a given prop and run a little hotter than a LBP series. May or may not have problems with the esc you have chosen, depends on the motor and careful propping. Most people who are using those cheapie esc and staying well under the rated capacity, the 200's aren't much better.
I'd look at a Swordfish esc from Offshore electrics, at least you have some customer service.
As I'm getting more and more into electrics I'm finding that HK is not much of a deal. Going budget at the start has ended up costing more in the long run replacing all the cheap junk with quality.
I'm done with cheap batteries as well, I'll spend the money for good packs and get better performance and longer life out of them.
Right now I'm boatless because all the cheap crap I bought last year has failed within a couple of weeks and we have the strike so my replacement stuff is sitting someplace! Almost tempted to get rid of all my electric stuff with the exception of my SV27 and putting all the money back into nitro boats again!
Learning the hard way that you really do get what you pay for! Even if it means you have to save for a little longer I'd seriously wait and buy quality. Makes the hobby more fun when your boats are actually working!
With the Tacon motors you have to pay attention as to wether you are getting a 2 pole motor, the cheaper ones that are not labeled LBP are the 2 pole motors, these ones will have higher amp draw for a given prop and run a little hotter than a LBP series. May or may not have problems with the esc you have chosen, depends on the motor and careful propping. Most people who are using those cheapie esc and staying well under the rated capacity, the 200's aren't much better.
I'd look at a Swordfish esc from Offshore electrics, at least you have some customer service.
As I'm getting more and more into electrics I'm finding that HK is not much of a deal. Going budget at the start has ended up costing more in the long run replacing all the cheap junk with quality.
I'm done with cheap batteries as well, I'll spend the money for good packs and get better performance and longer life out of them.
Right now I'm boatless because all the cheap crap I bought last year has failed within a couple of weeks and we have the strike so my replacement stuff is sitting someplace! Almost tempted to get rid of all my electric stuff with the exception of my SV27 and putting all the money back into nitro boats again!
Learning the hard way that you really do get what you pay for! Even if it means you have to save for a little longer I'd seriously wait and buy quality. Makes the hobby more fun when your boats are actually working!
There is only a few tacon motors with the lbp rating, and nowhere is anything said about pole?... Where are you getting that info?
I have to disagree about other electronics other than "name brand" being junk... I run tacon motors in all my riggs. 4074 2150kv on 4s in my lst and it runs just as good as my buddy's 1515 2200kv castle motor. I also run a 3650 3500kv on 2s in my slash 4x4 and let me just say that was an upgrade from the velineon stuff... Both motors are geared correctly and never run hot. I also run hobbywing esc's in both my riggs and they are also performing great.
As far as batteries I run all turnigy batts and they are AWESOME!! I dont know what kind of batteries you were running but if you have not tried turnigys give them a go... For the price they just simply cant be beat.
And i dont care if its top dollar stuff or bottom dollar stuff i would never buy anything with out investigation... Read reviews, youtube, do some google searches, nothing is more usefull than user reviews. For example go on hobbypartz and look at all the reviews about the tacon motors, nothing but good. Hobbyking also has great user feedback.
As far as the esc I chose, well im on a budget and the hk ss 125amp for $30 is worth a try in my book. Once again it got good reviews. I have had good luck with a hk heli esc so why not.
And on quality, I think the quality of the more affordable electronics has really taken a few steps up within the last couple years. But quality has not been so great in the past. Times change...
I will find out first hand how all the components will run in my app and believe me i will report back, not just on this forum, but all the places I purchased parts from.
Ok i got all my gear installed. Tacon 3675 1900kv motor & 125 amp esc. Going to be running on 4s with a 1.14x42mm prop. Still have some minor thinigs to do but will hopefully have it on the water this weekend. I think the setup will run pretty good, I will report back with temps and performance.
Any tips are welcomed. Here are some pics.
I finaly got my apparition in the water today! Still got a few things to work out but so far all seems ok. I ran for about 4 to 5 min then brought in to check temps. What I did not expect to find was water in the hull!! I need to pin down where it is coming from and seal it, lucky none of the electronics got soaked and all is ok. Any advice on problem water leakage areas? Temps were ok, motor 105, esc 125, batts 85, it was about a minute from when i got it out of the water till i got the hatch off and checked the temps. I saw a good steady stream on the water cooling exit so that all seems to be working well.
I was not able to hit full speed... It was porpusing too much so i had to let off, I was going to move the batts forward a bit to see if it would help but when I found water in the hull I called it a day. So there needs to be some adjustment done there to level it out. I would say I never really got over 75% throttle.
So far I am very impressed. Speed was good, will improve when I trim out the boat so i can open it up. Motor ran good and cool on 4s so far, hopefully next time i can really open it up for some better temp data.
Here is a small video, more to come soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=nwK1N2wxMsc
I put silicone everywhere water could possibly get in so hopefully that stops the water from getting in. I also droped the prop about an 1/8 inch so ill see if that helps with the porpusing.
Plan on going out today and hopefully getting some full speed runs. I will post more vids.
sailr
07-08-2011, 11:49 AM
Pressure check the cooling lines. I pull the line off the rudder and then while holding a finger tight over the outlet, suck on the line you took off the rudder and then place your tongue on it. It should hold the suction. If not, you may have a leak in the cooling lines or water jacket.
Another place for water to get in is up the shaft. If possible, put a piece of silicone tubing over the stuffing tube and shaft.
One more way to check for leaks. Tape the hatch up tight and hold the boat under water in the bathtub and watch for air bubbles coming out.
FighterCat57
07-08-2011, 12:34 PM
Make sure the prop dog is adjusted snug against the strut. If there's a gap, it will suck water into the hull. It's the nature of the 2 piece setups. No prop dog gap needed since the don't shrink under load.
I did the pressure check on the lines and that was all good. I was wondering about the shaft... I was thinking some shrink tube and heat it up just enough to be snug, then the grease should lube it. I have some silicone tube also I will see if I can get it on there. I did notice where the rudder assembly bolts on the screws were just snug... and it was not completely flush... I put silicone all around it so that should take care of that.
Bathtub idea is brilliant! I will do that and check for bubbles to pin point any leaks, thanks for the tip!
I will check out the dog, I think there is a tiny bit of play, if so ill take care of that.
Well got it on the water again today but it only lasted a few minutes... Prop threw a blade... And still getting water inside!!!
55087
Blade was a cheap $1 plastic turnigy aquaprop, not sure if it just failed or just cant handle the power. I have one more so ill give it a go, then its on to a good metal prop.
I tightened up my drive dog and sealed all possible leak areas with silicone... I think its coming in through the shaft. Im going to put some shrink tube/silicone tube whatever works better and see if that helps. Also didnt have time to put in the tub I will do that before I go out next time.
I only ran about 3 to 4 mins but it was all full throttle speed runs, motor was 105, esc 130. I think the motor can handle a little more prop, but that will draw more amps and not sure if the esc can handle it. Only one way to find out.
Seems as though dropping the prop a bit helped out with the porpusing, can probably still use some adjustment but ok for now.
Here is another small video, you can hear the prop go haha! Any advice on trim adjustments anyone??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5gEGiHbn30Y
Alexgar
07-09-2011, 09:30 AM
Those props are no good not reinforced I bought about 5 pairs of different sizes and im lucky to get more than one run before they crack or shear a blade may be good but not for high power setups
Alexgar
07-09-2011, 09:32 AM
Try a ul1 prop
FighterCat57
07-09-2011, 11:07 PM
I'm surprised that prop lasted that long. They are just plastic. You can use the K series props from Graupner. They work great. A piece of #129 brass will shim the prop shaft. OSE sells them pre-cut as shims too.
You're lucky it didn't bend the prop shaft when the propeller broke. Most times if only 1 blade left it will bend the shaft. (ask me how I know)
As for the water in the hull, is it puddling around the coupler at the drive tube? If so, check that the strut is fully engaging the stuffing tube. The prop dog gap looks good from the photo. The only other piece is making sure there is enough grease in the flex cable.
Moving the COG forward should help the porpoising.
Hope this helps. =)
Thanks for the advice guys. I'm glad I didn't bend my shaft... now that you mention that ill just wait for to get a metal prop before I run again. I'm thinking either the octura x440/3 blade or x442/ 2 blade. What are the differences between a 2 blade and a 3 blade, I'm guessing 3 blade will create more thrust with less total diam vs a 2 blade? But other than that?
I will get the water thing figured out. I was thinking the same about the porpusing, got it close enough to where moving the batts a little should help.
Well i ordered the last octura x442 prop in stock from ose. Unfortunately they were out of the 3/16 brass tubing i need to make this prop fit on my 4mm shaft. I did some searching and found the same tubing on hobbylinc.com and ordered from there. So i am now awaiting my new prop to see how she runs.
The prop i was running was 1.14x42mm, the octura is 1.4x42mm. Same outside diam but the octura has more pitch. Using the speed calc as a refrence the new prop will add about 8 to 9 mph to my top seed.
Finally got it on the water today. New octura x442 prop bal/polished. Adjusted the strut to be level with the bottom of the sponsons with zero pitch and wow runs totally different. As soon as it gets up on plane it just flys over the water now. No gps but I can tell its faster, I can also hear the motor reving higher due to better strut adjustment. Temps still good.
I didn't get any vid this time, nor run very long because it got dark on me. I will take some vid soon with the same setup, I think everything is pretty much good where it is.
PumpedNotch
07-28-2011, 11:03 PM
Ok so what was your final motor and prop choice? And any clearance problems with the motor/hatch?
Ok so what was your final motor and prop choice? And any clearance problems with the motor/hatch?
Check out post #15 on this thread, no clearance problems. And x442 as stated in my last post.
And I would not say the x442 is my final prop choice. I'm very happy with it for now but my motor temps are still good so I may upgrade to a faster prop when I feel the need for more speed.
JackBlack26
07-29-2011, 12:30 AM
x445 will make a huge difference. Tacon motors are great. I don't know why people like to bash them. I run a 4074, 2150 in my Muggy and on 4S it will back flip on command. Great motor!!
x445 will make a huge difference. Tacon motors are great. I don't know why people like to bash them. I run a 4074, 2150 in my Muggy and on 4S it will back flip on command. Great motor!!
Yeah I want to stick with 2 blade, I was looking at the x640, but the x445 is a possible option too.
And on the tacon motors...agreed! I don't get it either... I find it hard to find bad reviews on tacons. I have that same 4074 2150 on 4s in my losi lst xxl and its BAD A$$! Also got a tacon on my slash 4x4 and love it. So I figured why not my boat, and once again I'm happy.
Here is a good vid... This was done at my local track, norcal hobbies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIQ0m1BTfYo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
wppracing
07-31-2011, 06:57 AM
I just got the apparition as a spare boat. I also have water coming in the boat. Found the strut mount bolts were loose and the brackets moved up and down. Its almost impossible to tighten them. I had to drill 2 small holes throught the top of the hull and use a screw driver to hold the nuts.
Also I am using the grimracer 42/55 prop. Had to cut the brass bushing out of the stock plastic prop and press it into the grimracer. Works great.
Hope to have the water issue fixed today.
FighterCat57
07-31-2011, 08:50 AM
I just got the apparition as a spare boat. I also have water coming in the boat. Found the strut mount bolts were loose and the brackets moved up and down. Its almost impossible to tighten them. I had to drill 2 small holes throught the top of the hull and use a screw driver to hold the nuts.
Also I am using the grimracer 42/55 prop. Had to cut the brass bushing out of the stock plastic prop and press it into the grimracer. Works great.
Hope to have the water issue fixed today.
Usually a 5.5mm socket on an extension will hold the rudder nuts. Have to "use the force" a bit with the ones you can't see.
Check the water outlet, I'll bet it's not sealed. Same with the antenna mount and water inlet. Then check the stuffing tube itself, I'll bet it's not sealed and the tube moves. Adding a bit of silicone and sliding the tube so the silicone seals will help.
HTH
wppracing
07-31-2011, 05:19 PM
Off to the water again. I changed the strut and flex shaft to one off of the Miss Geico. Moved the water outlet forward so the battery isnt close to it, and sealed the antenna fitting.
I was able to get the socket in on mine, they were loose as well, and I know what your saying about using the force... I had all possible leaking points sealed up but was still getting water in... it was coming through the stuffing tube. I'm hoping the changes I made will stop this. Took out the liner in the tube and sealed the tube to strut with silicone. Didn't get to run today, hopefully tomorrow.
wppracing
08-01-2011, 05:58 AM
Tested the boat again and the hull was dry . NO more water leak. I changed the strut and flex cable to the Miss Geico style. To use this set up you need to cut the stuffing tube about 1/4 inch, enlarge the strut mounting hole, and shortened the flex cable. This now allows you to grease the cable with out taking the strut off each time. Also there are alot of different props to use. I have the Grimracer 42/55 and Octura X642.
I'm using an octura x442 on the stock 4mm flex, just need a piece of 3/16 brass tube to shim up. And to grease the flex I have been taking the motor off...easier than taking off the strut and getting it back where you had it.
FighterCat57
08-01-2011, 09:43 AM
Tested the boat again and the hull was dry . NO more water leak. I changed the strut and flex cable to the Miss Geico style. To use this set up you need to cut the stuffing tube about 1/4 inch, enlarge the strut mounting hole, and shortened the flex cable. This now allows you to grease the cable witout taking the strut off each time. Also there are alot of different props to use. I have the Grimracer 42/55 and Octura X642.
Yeah, it would be awesome if someone were making a .187 / 3/16" conversion kit for the Gen/App boats. :spy:
*cough*
PumpedNotch
08-01-2011, 11:04 PM
These boats fly for sure!! I got to play with mine and i love it! I will step it up with a different motor later!!
These boats fly for sure!! I got to play with mine and i love it! I will step it up with a different motor later!!
What setup are you running? Prop,esc?
PumpedNotch
08-01-2011, 11:30 PM
Seaking 180,4's.Octx440
Sounds good. I think I will eventually upgrade to the seaking 180, for now the 125 is hanging in there. So where do you have the 180 mounted? Any fit issues?
Yeah they are a good hull, fly is the right word! With the 1900kv and x442 I'm running I got to be close to 50mph! I got to get some gps results, ill throw my droid in the hull once I solve the water issue, of course put it in a water tight bag too...
Ran my app today, did a few laps and then brought in to check temps, motor cool, esc warm at 120. Everything was good so I put it back on the water to run it, and i ran it hard! Many speed laps and big full speed circles untill i hit low voltage cutoff. Brought her in and a couple concerns... still getting some slight water in but nothing major, major problem was esc at 200 degrees!!!!:flammes-09: Obviously it can not handle full throttle for extended periods of time... But amazingly its still functioning. Motor was still cool though at 113 degrees, very happy with the tacon.
I see a seaking 180 in my near future:laugh:
Other than that the boat ran/handeled very well.:thumbup1:
PumpedNotch
08-09-2011, 11:47 PM
Clocked mine yesterday at 38mph!!
I will agree these things are fast!
I got one last week due to peer pressure. Both my brother and friend I run boats with have cats, one an apparition and one miss geico.
I had to have one.
First day of running I took my setup out of my sv27
Etti 150 esc
Fiego 8xl
5000mah turnigy 40c packs running 4s
Sharpened and balanced octura m445
53.6 mph per the gps
Motor temps were great 120's
Esc in the 180's
Third day of running the boat and i think i killed my esc. Caps were about 320 when i got to them, and very swollen. Pushing the esc apart.
Its a few years old and the capacitors are TOAST. Oh well, good excuse to try out the hydra ice 240.
Strange it died through, my brothers did the exact same thing 3 days before mine. Bothe etti's were about 2 1/2 years old. And i have been running this same setup in the sv with no problems.
The water getting in is because the strut is not sealed with that little teflon bushing. I had the same problem with water in my boat until i tightened of the drive to the strut and put some grease in the strut as well and the stuffing tube.
Now I have no more leaks.
PumpedNotch
08-16-2011, 12:52 AM
Wow 53 mph? I want that!!
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