feigao vs ammo

[chunt92]

mysv 27 is gettin only 38.9 mph i know its a prop issue any recomendations . ammo 2300 smc 2c 5000 lipos 2 pacs. hydra120 using a ballanced and shapened GrimRacer 40x52 3-Blade. also what should the settings be as far as timming and the current limmiter should it be disabbled? some people are saing it should be 48.9 so what am i doing wrong? is ammo 2300 not as good as a feigo and is it worth the extra cash 4 a hacker or a neu motor?:help:

[chunt92]

here's some pics if it helps?

[andym]

Disable the currant limiter, with 20c 2p it is not an issue and try a m445. The way the currant limiter works it will never allow the esc to run flat out and this can cause more heat.

[kin]

i just got her GR 40x53/3 prop and the rest on stock cond, runing 2s 500mah lipos , yet to see the diff on the from stock props , and soon planning to get hydra 120 and feigao 9xl motors , i think as for me this would be the ideal set up for a very fast sv already ...

[chunt92]

ill give the limmiter a try this weekend i dont have a m445 i guess a m447 is to big? the reson i ask about that is i have it. and what about the timming low normal?

[obrien]

I would try the x642. I know of a couple of people running that prop on the SV and love the way the boat runs. From what I have seen with my buddies SV, it seems the grim racer props have alot of bow lift. I am going to try and get him to run my 642 once we get a chance to get back out.

[Ctonez]

Chunt - How do you know it's a prop issue?

I run a barracuda 125...basically the same ESC as you.
I run the Ammo 2300kv...same as you.
I prefer the 437/3 blade (smaller prop)because I race in an oval, but I still get 48+ on the GPS.
the 440/3 blade is basically the same as the grim prop, and I get 52+ with that prop...which is too much for the hull, and the reason i run the 437/3, but either way, 38.9 w/ the Ammo 2300 and lipos is too slow.

What temps are you seeing?
How often do you lube the drive cable?
Is the stuffing tube aligned correctly?

I'd look at the drive line, not the prop as the main slowing factor.

...unless that grim 40x52/3 is a big pig anchor of a prop, but I don't see how that'd cost you 10mph+ on this setup.

[chunt92]

437 prop tests.temps on the motor was warm with batts. about the same i can hold my hand over the end of the motor and keep it there.i cant get an accrate reading due to the water cooler covers the whole motor (water shoots out about a foot and a half)the drive ling is almost purfect as far as alighnment the shaft is very easy to turn and gets lubed every day after a run. i only have a set of lipos. i took a vacation day at work to run it this afternoon and did some prop changes the 437 was 39.2 the grim was 37.5 and i tried a m447 39.6and that was a big and costly mistake all of this was with the timing on normal and the current limeter off. the motor seized up u could smell some thing burned got it home unpluged the motor and hooked up a castle creations motor from a emaxx just to see if the speedo was ok then the smoke rolled. so it needs to be sent back. ill post some vids on utube tonight. :frusty:

[SweetAccord]

Try to remove the right rear turn fin unless you need to turn at high speeds. If you are just running straights, remove it, you should gain 1-2 MPH Don't unscrew from the bracket off the SV either, just remove the one screw that is holding the fin.

By your pic, your water pickup maybe causing a drag too, maybe losing 1-2 MPH? Try to move it up more looks kinda deep/low, or go to the water pickup on the rudder. without changing any props yet, see if you gain on that alone. Or go for the prop changes already recommended, get an average speed and from there try the changes mentioned.

Good luck!

[chunt92]

its gona be a while both the motor and speedo are cooked im uploading some vids on utube as we speak and after that ive got some pretty cool looking pics of the motor and speedo tring to keep a good frame of mind couse its probably gonna cost at least 150 bucks to fix my mess lol.

[SweetAccord]

Ugh on the fixing the mess. Sorry to read that :crying:.

Oh hey, also check that they flex cable is very free and not binding. Should move pretty freely by hand.

Also, some report a gain in speed by not using the teflon liner and just run the cable bare. It does make it more free, but not sure HOW much gain is attained by that alone, if any really :unsure:.

[chunt92]

it felt pretty good before and after the run i just checked it. very little resistance.

[SweetAccord]

Kewl, when you can run it, try what I mentioned. I've also found threads where "scuffing" the bottom of the boat allows more speed too. Don't know if you have ever heard of that or have done that one. I won't do that to mine unless the gain is dramatic!

[chunt92]

yes ive tried it on my minivee it seemed to help but it wasnt much.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMTYd0Vk5t8 this is the second fastest 39.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrDQW0WWaYU this was the grim prop at 37.5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCrzMHF3e3cand last was the killer lol. m447 at 39.6
pics comming soon..

[chunt92]

hope i get mony back on my taxes lol:w00t: some one posted a reply about the temps how can i get an accurat reading. in one of the pics it shows how long the motor is compared to the water cooler i know people check them but i dont know how?

[Dale Koblitz]

Get an IR temp gun and point it at the ends of the motor, at the batterys, and at the esc.

[Dale Koblitz]

i just got her GR 40x53/3 prop and the rest on stock cond, runing 2s 500mah lipos , yet to see the diff on the from stock props , and soon planning to get hydra 120 and feigao 9xl motors , i think as for me this would be the ideal set up for a very fast sv already ...
What kind of run-times and speeds do you get with 500mah lipo's:rofl: Must have meant 5000mah I hope.

[Dale Koblitz]

yes ive tried it on my minivee it seemed to help but it wasnt much.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMTYd0Vk5t8 this is the second fastest 39.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrDQW0WWaYU this was the grim prop at 37.5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCrzMHF3e3cand last was the killer lol. m447 at 39.6
pics comming soon..

A 447 is way to big for that set-up you overloaded the motor and esc. Even with the stock set-up a 447 is to big. I wouldn't run over a 445 stock and with a hotter motor you would whant to start with a 437 not 447 and if temps are ok try a 440 or maybe a 442. This is my guess anyway. Motors need to run in the sweat rpm zone and if you gear tham up to much you will actually loose speed and even smoke something like you did. A higher KV motor would need a smaller prop and some motors just run differently as far as speed and torque go. You need to start small and watch temps very closely like after every minuite or 2 with a new prop or motor till you see how its reacting to the changes. Then when you find the sweet spot :rockon2:

[Dale Koblitz]

Hey, SweetAccord grim never got back to me but I read this and thought of you http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7029385/tm.htm
If you whant speed here you go! It might cost a little more but it's FAASSST.

[chunt92]

thanks dale. whats the temps on motor and speedo supost to be, max or dont exceed what? I think it was ctones is running the same set up that i have (ammo2300 lipos x437 typically 45-48mph) and im 10mph off? hes runing 2 turn funs one on each side so hes got more drag my trim tabs are maybe 2degs. down toward water. I just dont see whare my speed is lost?

[Ctonez]

thanks dale. whats the temps on motor and speedo supost to be, max or dont exceed what? I think it was ctones is running the same set up that i have (ammo2300 lipos x437 typically 45-48mph) and im 10mph off? hes runing 2 turn funs one on each side so hes got more drag my trim tabs are maybe 2degs. down toward water. I just dont see whare my speed is lost?
Yeah, that was me...been offline 'til now.
Sorry to hear you burnt some parts. Everybody does though, even the best, most experienced racers.
I re-examined your pics after reading about the suggestion to shorten the water pickup...I agree with that point...there is waaay too much tube hanging below the edge of the transom, and that could be scrubbing alot of speed. I use the stock rudder pickup on both my SV's. opened a bit, bigger tubing, OSE jacket.
Also, it's hard to tell from the pics, but is it possible your rudder bracket is slightly misaligned? It looks slightly off canter in pic #2. I've seen many of these be askew after a rough tumble. Many of the screws need to be retightened every few runs.
Another thing you do different than me is the ESC settings. I set my Barracuda 125 at the lowest setting...not sure about the current limiter...I never adjusted that.
My tabs are nearly O Deg. - the right side tab is -1 Deg.
you can get a temp reader at most hobby stores, and nicer ones at hardware/electronics stores. Always check temps, especially when trying props. I check temps of motor/ESC/batteries after every run.
The m445 was too big for the Ammo, let alone the M447. Those props are pushing the stock motor, and that motor has a much lower KV and torque than the AMMO, and can handle bigger props. On the same prop the Ammo heats up the entire system more than the stock motor...IME.
Temps on motor above 150 are no good.
Temps on ESC over 120 are not good.
Temps on (Lipo)batteries over 140 are not good.
These are just guidelines, refer to manufacturer for specifications.
My entire system rarely sees over 100 Degrees...except batteries, but that's intentional.

[Dale Koblitz]

First of all your running SMC 2s 5000mah 20c lipo's right? Because I saw 500mah and 2c which wouldn't even move the SV. As far as your speed problem goes unless you got a bad motor to begin with I would say the only thing that could rob 10mph would be an allignment issue. Are you certain that the stuff tube is allmost perfectly aligned with the motor shaft and does it slide right into the coupler? Do you have different batterys to try? Are you ballancing your props? This wouldn't make that big of a difference but only use a light coat of grease on the flex and prop shaft don't pack the stuff tube full. Where are you running your boat? Is it perfectly calm all the time? Boats run faster in light chop or loose water! Hows your set-up, is your trim tabs or strut way down? Are you sure your gps is accurate? That boat seemed to be going pretty well in the vidio. Go for a ride in the car and check the gps acuracy just to make sure. If everything I mentioned checks out then I'de guess you had a bad motor or esc, but I doubt it. It's hard to trouble shoot a boat w/o seeing it in person. Good Luck!

[chunt92]

the batts. are 5000mah. 22c 2cells per pack. i did check the gps in the car and still in the boat but with the lid off of the boat i will check the alignment both motor and rudder again i will say the grease was put in pretty heavy (stuffed) (AMSOIL#2 LITHIM COMPLEX heavy duty synthetic grease)also the picup tube is cut at a fairly sharpe angle so the intrance to the tube is right at the bottom of the hull ill posta pic but i work second shift so itll be late.

[SweetAccord]

Thanks Dale Koblitz for thinking of me! Thanks for the info!

[SweetAccord]

yes ive tried it on my minivee it seemed to help but it wasnt much.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMTYd0Vk5t8 this is the second fastest 39.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrDQW0WWaYU this was the grim prop at 37.5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCrzMHF3e3cand last was the killer lol. m447 at 39.6
pics comming soon..

Great video, nice speeds chunt92!

[Ctonez]

again i will say the grease was put in pretty heavy (stuffed) (AMSOIL#2 LITHIM COMPLEX heavy duty synthetic grease)

sounds like you are over-lubing. I put just a light coating over the shaft with my finger and make sure I get the stub and shaft bearing too.
Not too much, just a very thin coating is needed...definitely don't stuff the tube.

[SweetAccord]

If you look at the pic's he had 5000mah.

[Ctonez]

Great video, nice speeds chunt92!
...that's the problem though. Those speeds are nice if he were running stock, not really nice with the Ammo on Lipos.:blink:

[chunt92]

heres a few more pics take a look see what ya think. just wondering has any one tried cutting the rudder down about half an inch off the bottom?

[chunt92]

2 more.....

[Dale Koblitz]

Why would you do that? It seams you are running it full under I'm guessing to keep her planted. That will slow you down a little but if you cut it down it's not going to be very effective at that anymore. I'm thinking with your tabs way dowm like that and the rudder all the way forward or under you may be slowing her down quite a bit. Maybe you have to though running the right prop with your motor/esc combo. You're probably running quite wet. That along with a butt load of grease might have something to do with your speed or lack of. Will she stay planted if you run her a little dryer running on little ripples, if so I bet it would run much faster with a thin layer of grease. I use grim racer blue speed greese.
Actually it's hard to tell in the first pic it looks like your tabs are bent way down but in the other pics they don't look that bad. Neither of the leading edges of the trim tabs are below the hull are they? When I got mine one of the tabs was way to low I had to boar ovals out of the holes on the tabs so I could move them up so they were above the back hull. That would have of slowed me way down if I hadn't cought it.

[Dale Koblitz]

2 more.....

Was that a nitro SV or did you cut out those air ducts? The onlything I can see that would slow you down is the angle of your trim tabs and the rudder and if you're using to much thick grease. Did you ever recheck the allignment of the stuff tube with the motor coupler, and are your props well ballanced and sharpened? If all these things are fixed or fine you must have had a bad motor or esc? How were your speeds with the stock sv27 gear in it if it ever was a BL27? If things were fine then and you haven't changed anything must be motor or esc?

[chunt92]

i know a few guys running gas boats and the some times shorten the rudder less stering and more speed. no the leading edge is flush the trailing edge is about the thickness of it self. ose trim tabs that i got did have some play enough to get it flush. you said full under u are referin to the rudder?

[chunt92]

i cut them out. for cooling the batts. when it was stock they got very hot. but they were 2100 venom 2 cells lipos. i didnt relise till to late that it pulls a lot of amps.

[Dale Koblitz]

I bet that makes it a little trickey to tape her up for water proofing!
And yes I meant the rudder. By running it full under your pushing the rear of the hull down which causes more drag.

[chunt92]

nothing gets wet. knock on wood i havent recked, yet lol.

[chunt92]

so the rudder should be parallel with the transom? i never moved any of that its the way it came out of the box. tilted back would rase the front of the boat? and increase speed?

[Dale Koblitz]

No, tilting it back would raise the transom and prevent the boat from plowing water. But you would brobably just whant it parallel to the transome like you said to decrease drag.

[chunt92]

cool thanks, got to get this thing back in the water speedo is on its way:bounce:

[Ctonez]

re: the pics
your tabs are pretty far down. I haven't looked at the vids yet...does it ride wet or loose? I suspect it rides fairly wet. Those tabs are slowing you down.
I still believe your water pickup is too low. easily worth a couple mph in increased drag.
In the final pic...looking dead on from the rear...it still looks like your rudder bracket is not totally square. ..could be the angle of the pic, but try and twist it (don't force it!:scared: ) and see if those bolts might be a little loose. Mine works loose after several runs or contact with underwater debris/other boats.

re: the holes in the hatch lid...nitro/gas guys can run open top, but it is not wise to run open top with an Electric. minimal wetness is tolerable, but bone dry is best...soaking your lipos and electronics is BAD.
...and you WILL wreck. especially the way you are pursuing speed...I'm really surprised you haven't wrecked yet to be honest.
...so is that a Nitro hull, or hatch, or just custom?
There are several threads in this forum and other forums that detail several good ideas to enhance the performance and longevity of the SV27. It may take awhile to read through, but I advise all new SV27 owners search for and read through those threads and take notes...it'll increase the performance of the boat, the longevity of the components, and the most important factor - FUN!:banana:

[Ctonez]

Sorry Dale...I keep reiterating what you write for some reason...:sorry:

[chunt92]

would it be ok to recut the pic up tube? maybe a little off the bottom? because if i raise it it the opening will be upbove the bottom of the hull or does that not matter? as in the pic of the rear the rudder does look to be little tilted top right bottom left and ill decrease the angle of the trim tabs. straight no neg. & no pos.?

[Ctonez]

would it be ok to recut the pic up tube? maybe a little off the bottom? because if i raise it it the opening will be upbove the bottom of the hull or does that not matter? as in the pic of the rear the rudder does look to be little tilted top right bottom left and ill decrease the angle of the trim tabs. straight no neg. & no pos.?

I don't run a water pickup like that, but you really don't need much exposure to the water surface to pick up plenty for the system. Adjust it so it is barely peeking over the transom.
I would also move it further away from the keel so it doesn't interrupt flow to the prop...this could also contribute to the slow factor.

re: trim tabs...It depends on how your boat is riding currently.
I'd barely tweak them up, then run the boat and see how it affects the handling/ride/speed, then I'd bring the boat in and tweak a tiny bit more and run the boat again...repeat until the boat is too loose and then back them up to where it runs stable but fast.

Keep in mind, the boat will start to fly a bit, and you will likely flip it with the trims too high...have a retrieval method ready and seal that hatch!
How am I doin' Dale?:tiphat:

[chunt92]

(pick up tube)ill try it with out the next time i run it. how do you or did you open the pick up in the rudder didnt you say you opened it up? what size? im debating on sending the motor back. tower hobbies is going to say sorry! and im out the shipping,what do you think. if i dont should i go with another ammo, or should i try one of the feigao's and what size?:confused2:

[kin]

(pick up tube)ill try it with out the next time i run it. how do you or did you open the pick up in the rudder didnt you say you opened it up? what size? im debating on sending the motor back. tower hobbies is going to say sorry! and im out the shipping,what do you think. if i dont should i go with another ammo, or should i try one of the feigao's and what size?:confused2:

feigao 9xl , get hydra 120 esc if u dun have em ..... your boat be a rocket , pls do some trimming to stable it too cause this will be a fast boat

[chunt92]

just sent my hydra120 back and locked up my ammo both were fried due to bad set up and too big of a prop. check the vids earler in this thread. the vid that about 2.5 min. long is when she locked up.

[Ctonez]

read this thread: http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=52&highlight=supervee

...and the RCUniverse thread it refers to. All the info you need is there.
get a pad of paper and your beverage of choice and enjoy!

read this too:
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=1939

[chunt92]

thanks!....

[fastbaltek]

i agree with taking the water pick up off and using the rudder instead, maybe you could open up the hole just a tad. Try wet sanding the bottem of the hull where it contacts the water, makes bubbles so less boat in the water.... i think. also i think the strut should be parallel with the bottom of the boat. if metal props fail go for the cf45. or 48 ha.

[SweetAccord]

Oh Oh, you know what???? Screw me bad. I revisited the pics again........constantly thinking, why....why....why.....this is a good setup.

Hard to see the pic, but is it me or is the prop. drive dog flat up against the drive strut or maybe more space is needed?? It's hard to see millimeters in a pic.

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3603&d=1202364692 and http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3608&d=1202365379

You need at least 2-5mm gap on that as the flex cable (I believe if I need correction please someone chime in) that will decrease it's length under rotation and if you have no gap there it's gunna smack on the srut and cause major or some drag?

I hope that's it cause that is a easy fix!!!

[fastbaltek]

nice catch i would have to agree. my drive dog is about 3mm away from the strut.

[Dale Koblitz]

I keep mine between 1/8 and a 1/4" from the strut. Actually that quarter inch extra distance from the hull makes a difference in speed also. 1/4" is suppose to be the fastest actually from what I've heard. And yes under load the cable shortens and if there isn't a big enough gap it will cause binding like Accord said.

[chunt92]

yes your right the distance was too close but in the past two week ive bought another sv and ive done some changes closley to the other boat minus the prop the best on a stock sv was 36mph with warm 6 cell packs the volts are much higher than the lipos (lipos were 35mph) but the bigest killer was the water pick up it lost 6 mph. so along with an unbalanced boat i tried to compensate with the trim tabs down too big of a prop and im sure a few other things. right now im tring to figure out the best flowing water pic up with out slowing me down ive tried the stock pic up in the rudder but its not much more than a dribble if that. ill post a pic of the most resent changes also i took a drill bit that was like the next size larger (inside diameter) and opened up the brass nipples on the speedo and the one on the rudder.

[chunt92]

heres some pics:rockon2:

[chunt92]

heres a link to me and my brother n law racing on a small lake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSV_8n7Zyu4&feature=user
and then one running by my self on the 36 mph run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLOtnHaI3vE&feature=user:banana:

[Ctonez]

Looking good!
36 sounds more like it.
Getting more speed will now come from the little tweaks and prop work/choice.
Good to see you're making progress.:thumbup1:

[SweetAccord]

Nice Videos! Make that Ms. Vegas chase you!!! On that 3rd picture it looks like your strut pooped a butch of grease out or did you pack that on there? It's still hard to tell with that grease in the way how much of a gap there is, BUT you are aware of that now so only you can tell. I'm glad that adjusting the water pickup made a difference for you! It just looked like too much.....sometimes more is just not better.....in this case. :smile:

[chunt92]

pooped lol, it just wiped it off the shaft as i put it in. the water pick up was the major problem it knocked off 6 mph. does any one have a picup that doesent slow it down?

[chunt92]

special thanks to Ctonez the info he has given me realy has helped!:rockon2:

[Ctonez]

...just payin' it forward. I wouldn't know half of what I know without the help of people I've met in the forums and at the races.
Glad I could help.

[SweetAccord]

You should be fine using the pickup off the rudder. Problem is that making the hole bigger means more speed will be needed to move more water through the larger hole-and the water system. So if you are not WOT all the time, the water cooling effect may not be as great; a rule of water flow/physics.

When you run, does the water outlet spray out like a fountain or is it a drip kinda? What are the motor temps?

[SweetAccord]

I was the first to suggest the water pickup maybe the culprit! Off on the MPH amount thiugh, but it as was more than suspected . . . . . no props for me? sigh*

[chunt92]

water comes out pretty good while in a right turn in a straight it slows down a lot then any left turn at all i cant see a thing.

[SickrcBoats]

Hey guys, Iv been reading these threads alot, and Iv got an Sv27 as-well...and Im running the SMC5000mah 2s 22c lipos, Octura x440/3, Stock Motor, polished hardware, trimmed 1/2 in rudder, OSE tabs, gutted insides, and iv been doing trim setups for weeks to find more speed, on the garmin GPS I ran 41.3mph...and the lowest started at 38.4mph, so Im still running 40s with stock motor No lie!

[chunt92]

thats very good! 38 to 41 the best i ever got out of the stock motor was 36

[SickrcBoats]

Yea but thats on a perfect day, no wind, calm water, and Iv adjusted alot going back and fourth trying alot of diffrent things, i cut about a half inch or more off the rudder, and polished the bottom of the boat b4 every run. Try some car wax..(turtle wax or somthing) that helps a bit. Ill post pics up soon. Id say that on the average day, the boats running 39-40 but that 41.3 had to be luck! lol..