I guess it's official, unless...

[Ub Hauled]

I came across some news that I have seen coming for some time now...
Hard to believe but, expected if you really look around.

Click Here for IMF news (http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=359e72b8-8531-44a9-a190-d1246d5556bd&GT1=33002)

[tiqueman]

UB, I clicked on your link and my computer detected a virus. You may want to check it out.

[hyrulejedi86]

Geez they make it sound like were going to be a third world country. Yeah, we've got debt and are in trouble but still better off than many many other countries. Even if that means were number 2, that isn't too bad. Not to mention things can certainly change if we can get our act together.

[tiqueman]

Not to mention things can certainly change if we can get our act together.

Have you been outside? Thats not going to happen for a looooooooooooong time. The US blows right now. When are we going to stop worrying about other peoples problems and start solving our own.... NEVER. As long as the political A-holes keep collecting money, it will never change.

Thats all I have to say, its been a bad enough day.

[hyrulejedi86]

Well, of course you certainly have a good point but you just can't give up hope that we can improve.

[Meniscus]

Reinstate capitalism. Make it lean and mean.

I'll now step over the line and say that if you receive Govt. assistance, then you should have to be part of a work program to do the things that those folks who are working for money don't have time to do. In other words, when I go to work, then as part of your accepting money, cut my grass, weed the garden, etc. If you don't do it, then don't collect a check.

What better motivator to go make profit for yourself than just to benefit someone else.

I'm also a fan of putting the power back at the state level. Then you encourage venture capitalism, but that's a subject for another time.

Since the Industrial Revolution associated with War, politicians have kept the same model to stimulate the economy. At some point, it has diminishing returns as the capital investment and facilities are not utilized during times of less war.

Which brings me to my final point. Let's streamline and make business more effective. That translates across all industries.

I don't speak my mind often and is not meant to offend anyone. This is not a debate. So far as everyone's opinion, have at it, but get involved. After all, with the technology we have, ultimately there's no reason why we can't take more of an active role governing ourselves rather than complaining of what is essentially "the hand we're dealt"

OK, enough rant from me. Support those that are putting themselves on the line whether it be a sandwich shop or a farmer. Take a voice and collaborate with your neighbors.

[jac4412]

Theres alot of things that can happen and to take into consideration.

A totalitarian regime with a large working populace obviously has an edge in some aspects.

However many economists argue and point out the detriment of their system... the general unhappiness, the "weak" structure (meaning alot of there top businesses are products aren't necessarily built up well). Of course this is all perspective.

The greatest strength of a democracy is what it is... a democracy. It's also its biggest weakness. The United States goes into a depression what... every 20 years? Theres a pattern... I forget what my history class said...

Point being is we'll be fine but tique is right... right now we're in a bad rut with alot of idiots. Obama hasn't been great for this country... neither was bush. Clinton had things going well besides his desk fantasies.

Hey if we can amass this debt in like 3 terms of presidents... we can fix it up quickly too. We'll be fine... we've been an established economy/country for a long time.. and we bounce back. Theres so many things you got to factor in... what happens if oil prices keep skyrocketing? You think a country that is more fossil fuel dependent than us will do better? especially when their (overall) tech is lower? What about the European Union? All we can do is wait and see... A Million things could happen. But history says we have the experience to be alright. But like I said.. tique is right... we've got a bunch of idiots governing us... I don't know how we can fix that... or if we ever can.

[Ub Hauled]

UB, I clicked on your link and my computer detected a virus. You may want to check it out.

I'll check although I have a Mac... besides it is supposed to be a reliable source...
thanks though!


Geez they make it sound like were going to be a third world country. Yeah, we've got debt and are in trouble but still better off than many many other countries. Even if that means were number 2, that isn't too bad. Not to mention things can certainly change if we can get our act together.

I don't thin we are going to be a third world country, but aside of the obvious sins of a crappy economy, I think that everything is cyclical, a huge time based spiral.
Many countries were a power house prior to the US, and the fall, not necessarily all the way to the bottom but yes, their time was up.


Reinstate capitalism. Make it lean and mean.

.....I don't speak my mind often and is not meant to offend anyone. This is not a debate. So far as everyone's opinion, have at it, but get involved. After all, with the technology we have, ultimately there's no reason why we can't take more of an active role governing ourselves rather than complaining of what is essentially "the hand we're dealt"

OK, enough rant from me. Support those that are putting themselves on the line whether it be a sandwich shop or a farmer. Take a voice and collaborate with your neighbors.

Ben, I agree with you... with great power comes great responsibility... which is lacking here. There is no sense of unity in this country anymore (in my opinion), everyone is in for a quick buck, I mean, isn't that what we are lead o believe (land of opportunities)? To most people that come here, it means "come here, and make money", I know, I came from elsewhere. Something they don't explain is that you have to work as a group, as part of a bigger thing, we don't look at it as being part of a complex system and this mentality of a "quick buck" is what's left. luckily I was an educated man when I came here and had an understanding of what "playing in the same team" means.
JFK sad it right, "ask not what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country"... what he meant was for people not to look at things selfishly but be a team player.
Just to be clear, I don't mean that immigrants are a bunch of uneducated cavemen, nor that non-immigrants are... but over time, thoughts just turned into a self preservation thing rather then a work as a team (there area exceptions to the rule but not nearly enough).

Thanks for placing your opinions guys, please keep it civil as this can be a touchy subject for many.

[Flying Scotsman]

History, my favourite subject at school and yes history does repeat its self

Douggie

[tiqueman]

Reinstate capitalism. Make it lean and mean.

I'll now step over the line and say that if you receive Govt. assistance, then you should have to be part of a work program to do the things that those folks who are working for money don't have time to do. In other words, when I go to work, then as part of your accepting money, cut my grass, weed the garden, etc. If you don't do it, then don't collect a check.

What better motivator to go make profit for yourself than just to benefit someone else.


I don't speak my mind often and is not meant to offend anyone. This is not a debate. So far as everyone's opinion, have at it, but get involved. After all, with the technology we have, ultimately there's no reason why we can't take more of an active role governing ourselves rather than complaining of what is essentially "the hand we're dealt"

OK, enough rant from me. Support those that are putting themselves on the line whether it be a sandwich shop or a farmer. Take a voice and collaborate with your neighbors.

Incase its me you think is mooching off the govt, Im am/ was a Drafstman and a custom Home builder (GC) for 11 years and have been out of work now for over 2 years. Just setting the records straight. Not implying you directed that at me. :beerchug: Not trying to argue etc etc. :laugh:

I agree that I do not speak my mind often and nothing I say is meant to offend and create a debate w/ anyone else. Its just my opinions and how I feel.

I thought when I was let go back on March of 09 Id have a job w/ in 2 weeks. When I was getting started (mid 90s), every employer wanted more more more, certificates, licenses, etc etc. So, the next 9 yrs I put in my effort, I got everything I could get that time and $ allowed. Now look where I am. Ive got 232 Resumes out over the last 26 months. Less than 10 replies. A handful of which that did reply said they went with someone else b/c they were (without saying it) less qualified and could pay them less and did say they were worried Id bail if I found another job for more money. I offered a Mobile Home Maintenance group that Id sign I conrtact for 3 yrs at $12.00 / hour just so I could have a job. He said, sorry, we already hired someone. NONE of my applications to anywhere have I put a requested salary. I always put, Negotiable. They thing I made bookoo bux before and I didnt. So what am I doing now, handyman jobs around the neighborhood, cutting lawns, making boat hatches, whatever I can do to bring in a dollar. Im far from sitting on my a$$, but I still think this country is in the toilet, needs a complete overhaul and is an absolute crap place to be at the moment. History does repeat itself, I learned that in History as well, but dont you think we'd figured it out by now and quit making the mistakes.
My heart goes out to those who actually "work" for, not are supported by the govt. A few days ago when the govt was "so close to a collapse" and they were saying how military etc were only going to receive half thier income if any at all. Thats flat out BS!!!!! I hope they would have come home and went "bearing arms" straight to capital hill. :eek:


[QUOTE=jac4412;311518] Clinton had things going well besides his desk fantasies.QUOTE]

:rofl:

[Alexgar]

Mooching what is that after working 17 years straight and paying taxes I get laid off and I'm not eligible for any benefits so what's that and these people around me are on unemployment after a year with a company that the problem, so what the solution try to find a way to get out of paying in so how's that work one less payer and one more payee sounds like a recipe for disaster make it harder for lazy people to collect and the system will balance it self

[Steven Vaccaro]

I don't believe anyone's calling a laid off worker a "mooch". A large part of the mooching public are life long moochers! And most of them second and third generation moochers. My aunt worked at the Massachusetts "welfare" office for 20 or so years. You should hear the stories. Sure there are real people with real heath problems that force them to not be able to work, but a larger portion are just lazy or unfortunately not educated enough to do much.

[Alexgar]

i wasnt directing that to anyone here my sister in law collected for a 1.5 years and within a week of being cut off she found a job , my neibor got laid off and they get 25 a month in food stamps, my wife make 200 to much a month to qualify for food stamps yet our mortgage is 2 mths behind and the neibor down the road that works off the books and has 5 kids get welfare, food stamps wic and lives in a house twice the size of ours but yet he shows no income so my statement was its way to easy for people with a knowledge of the system to munipulate the system while the guy who never took a handout in his life needs help and has no where to turn

[Alexgar]

btw i start a job next week ive been wanting for 2 years(stablity) but its been a hard 3 months(last time i worked) and a tough year as buildind is suffering in the uper end market

[Steven Vaccaro]

i wasnt directing that to anyone here my sister in law collected for a 1.5 years and within a week of being cut off she found a job , my neibor got laid off and they get 25 a month in food stamps, my wife make 200 to much a month to qualify for food stamps yet our mortgage is 2 mths behind and the neibor down the road that works off the books and has 5 kids get welfare, food stamps wic and lives in a house twice the size of ours but yet he shows no income so my statement was its way to easy for people with a knowledge of the system to munipulate the system while the guy who never took a handout in his life needs help and has no where to turn

Some people just don't mind sucking from the system. Self respect is a huge part of that.

My moms friend had a daughter that had a terrible accident and was not able to speak, move or do anything. Basicly the poor girl was in a vegetative state for 15 or more years. They couldnt get any financial support, the father made about 20k a year back then. Not enough to survive and support wife that had to stay home to take care of the daughter. They tried for state assistance and the welfare worker could do nothing because of his salary, but off the record suggest the mom and dad divorce! It killed them to have to lower themselves to this level in order to live. They ended up having to divorce to get the help they so badly needed.

[tiqueman]

I don't believe anyone's calling a laid off worker a "mooch". A large part of the mooching public are life long moochers! And most of them second and third generation moochers. My aunt worked at the Massachusetts "welfare" office for 20 or so years. You should hear the stories. Sure there are real people with real heath problems that force them to not be able to work, but a larger portion are just lazy or unfortunately not educated enough to do much.

Well said


i wasnt directing that to anyone here my sister in law collected for a 1.5 years and within a week of being cut off she found a job , my neibor got laid off and they get 25 a month in food stamps, my wife make 200 to much a month to qualify for food stamps yet our mortgage is 2 mths behind and the neibor down the road that works off the books and has 5 kids get welfare, food stamps wic and lives in a house twice the size of ours but yet he shows no income so my statement was its way to easy for people with a knowledge of the system to munipulate the system while the guy who never took a handout in his life needs help and has no where to turn

Amen brother. And not only that, it peeves me that going from what I made, which believe me, wasnt close to 6 figures but was good pay, and someone aking 11 dollars and hour that gets laid off, and we collect teh same benefits. Like your situation, my wife makes too much fo us to qualify for anything. Yet we are short about 1500. a month on our bills. Well, like many have done, the savings account is onyl a couple months from being drained. Then what???


btw i start a job next week ive been wanting for 2 years(stablity) but its been a hard 3 months(last time i worked) and a tough year as buildind is suffering in the uper end market

Conratulations. Thats certainly great news. Best of luck w/ the employment. Send some my way!

[ron1950]

not knowing much about all this....i thought a commonwealth like mass would take care of there welfare beter then others...guess they are all the same......louisana took my money for unemployment and when they layed me off they said i make too much in retirement from the feds to get unemployment lol...just glad i can make ends meet...barely but makeing it....man i feel for you guys that are still young and need to work....it isnt getting any better out there......still waiting on the change they promaced last election...so far its just makeing me pay more for less.....

[Steven Vaccaro]

They take care of you Ron, as long as you are a single mom. Which covers more than 50% of the house holds in the cites. So the scam is to never get married. Just live together. Then you get, most of the money for your rent, food allowance AND the big one HEALTH care.

[GP73]

Interesting thread... :popcorn2:

[ron1950]

anyone want to get me pregnet? lol talk about a ugly thought!!!!

[tharmer]

The world is full of simple, easy to understand, wrong, solutions.

[domwilson]

Things aren't always as they appear...
For instance, welfare isn't free. Not for the taxpayer or the recipient. The recipient's in many cases are expected to pay the money back or the father's of te children will have to foot the bill. Welfare is the least of the problems this country has. IMHO Apathy, lack of social interaction, ethics, and greed are the social issues the leading to our economic downturn. Everyone has to be right, no matter how wrong they are. We spend more time arguing rather than finding solutions. Economics are just one aspect of what made this country strong. But I think what really makes us strong is the ability to overcome our differences and find solutions to the problems that affect us. Unfortunately, slowly and with little fanfare, our government is taking those abilities away from us and rendering us to be little more than automatons.

Look at this bill...

[Steven Vaccaro]

Things aren't always as they appear...
For instance, welfare isn't free. Not for the taxpayer or the recipient. The recipient's in many cases are expected to pay the money back or the father's of te children will have to foot the bill. Welfare is the least of the problems this country has. IMHO Apathy, lack of social interaction, ethics, and greed are the social issues the leading to our economic downturn. Everyone has to be right, no matter how wrong they are. We spend more time arguing rather than finding solutions. Economics are just one aspect of what made this country strong. But I think what really makes us strong is the ability to overcome our differences and find solutions to the problems that affect us. Unfortunately, slowly and with little fanfare, our government is taking those abilities away from us and rendering us to be little more than automatons.

Look at this bill...

Do I agree with some of what you are saying. But

"IMHO Apathy, lack of social interaction, ethics, and greed are the social issues the leading to our economic downturn"

Part of that above statement is caused by the lack of a working parent. A single mother can not show a child that hard work pays off.

"Not for the taxpayer or the recipient. The recipient's in many cases are expected to pay the money back or the father's of te children will have to foot the bill. "

Try finding the fathers. The only time this is done is when the father is in the middle to upper end of the wages catagory. Otherwise it doesnt make sense for the social investigators to speed the time/money to find them. Like I said, my aunt was one of these social workers. Two of the three fraud investigators in her office are good customers of mine. I wish I had the time to put their stories on paper. The system is a mess.

[hyrulejedi86]

I've tried to avoid this for a little while at least as politics just make me angry but I am agreeing with alot of what I am reading here. Especially, the "moochers" comments, I notice it all the time, in my profession even.

[domwilson]

Part of that above statement is caused by the lack of a working parent. A single mother can not show a child that hard work pays off.



Try finding the fathers. The only time this is done is when the father is in the middle to upper end of the wages catagory. Otherwise it doesnt make sense for the social investigators to speed the time/money to find them. Like I said, my aunt was one of these social workers. Two of the three fraud investigators in her office are good customers of mine. I wish I had the time to put their stories on paper. The system is a mess.

You are correct. There are some who are just "riding" the system. I don't believe that it is not even a majority. But it's enough to make people believe that most are doing it. In addition, many of those who are employed to police the system are not even doing their jobs or their managers are preventing them from doing it. I've seen cases where the social worker will visit a recipient and the father is living right there with them. But nothing happens. What ever happened to "WorkFare" where you had to do community work to get a check?...

Wouldn't it be nice if we had some of the same values as we did in the 60's or 70's where people were more considerate and helpful to each other? Where you pulled not only your own weight but a little extra to help out a friend or neighbor?
And often they would return the favor.

[Rumdog]

Workfare... that would be nice. I wish they would make jury duty the "duty" of the people collecting unemployment benefits. Why should I be forced to take time off work that I cannot afford to serve on a jury when there are thousands of people needing something to do with their free time?

Sorry for the slightly off topic rant

[domwilson]

I sympathize with those who have been out of work, thru no fault of their own, for extended periods of time. I would never imply that they are lazy. The majority of people out there want to work buy are unsuccessful in finding gainful employment. I was one of them. It is tough. I guess some of us forget, we can become one of them at any time and sometimes without warning. Don't blame those in need for the mis-steps of those in greed.

[Flying Scotsman]

Interesting, there are people who have been devisated by a loss of job or plant closure and there are some that abuse the system.

Douggie

[crrcboatz]

DEBT

That is what has caused the american dollar to be worth so little. The US govt and far too many americans live by debt. Americans default on everything under the sun. American government borrows 44 cents of every dollar it spends. We have become a debtor nation. The country is fast facing a time when it to could default on its debt also.

I am retired and have a high school classmate who between his wife and himself made over 250 grand/yr and did that for 12 yrs. Wife died of cancer, my friend took off to help her in her final months. After her death he has now been without steady work for 8+ yrs. During all that time of top shelf income they never saved a dime. He had 15 grand in the checking account and a small insurance policy to bury her with. We are both 64 and he will work till he dies. Lost his house and lives in an apt now
This is what he said to me about 10yrs ago, "Curt no one saves money today". I told him I DID. Bet he regrets spending lets see 2million + over those years and never saving any of it now.
Our govt and each of us must learn to live within our means. When the american dollar ceases to be the world standard and that is but a few yrs away, Americans will face a huge wake up but it will be too late then. Our standard of living will have gone and we will live like the rest of the world fighting high inflation, and not being able to efford nearly what we want. :Sinking:

Curt

[keithbradley]

They take care of you Ron, as long as you are a single mom. Which covers more than 50% of the house holds in the cites. So the scam is to never get married. Just live together. Then you get, most of the money for your rent, food allowance AND the big one HEALTH care.

Alot of our country's problems have to do with this. Not just limited to economics. Women need to know what they need, and what they can provide. Men need to know the same. Society has blurred the lines and everyone is being told they are "equal"...man, woman, child, ect. Its just not true. We are not equal and we need each other, and our kids need both of us. Women are better at some things than men, and men are better at some things than women. I've recently had this talk with my son. Our children are growing up in a world where they are treated like they have no strengths or weaknesses. Everyone is equal, and everyone gets the same blue ribbon just for participating.

I had to put my son in a different baseball league because the one he was in was a joke. No score kept, no balls/strikes...no outs. Every kid swings till he hits and every inning they go through the entire batting order. I guess they do this so no one feels inferior, but guess what: People are inferior. We all have weaknesses and strengths and the real world will teach you that fast. Why are we telling our kids this lie? We not only prepare our kids to live in a reality that doesnt exist, but we steal the feelings of accomplishment a child gets when they accomplish something.
The new league he is in is regular baseball. If youre out, youre out. If you cant hit the ball, sorry. If you are a good athelete and you work hard, it shows.

...I know Im going off on a tangent here, but heres the moral of the baseball story:

The league my son plays for now looks so different. Not just the rules, but the level of skill is not even comparable. Its like he went from playing with 8 year olds to playing with 16 year olds. I seriously think they could play 2-3 years up in the other league and just completely embarass the other kids.
They are not drawing from a different gene pool or anything, just allowing the kids to acheive things honestly, instead of just giving everyone the same reward regardless of their performance. Its amazing what kids can do when you stop treating them like they are infants.

I feel the same way about government assistance, and the single mother comment Steve made. Im not looking to bash anyone, but as much as I hear the cliche about single mothers having it so hard...
Well, I'll put it this way: Being responsible and commiting to one person for the rest of your life, honoring that commitment, staying around when its difficult instead of just looking for someone else to comfort you, being vulnerable to someone else, making an effort towards something more than just yourself instead of living life as a victum...those are all things that a married woman does, and I find them much more respectable traits than "struggling on your own". Most people who are "on their own" are on their own because they choose to be. If you choose to be on your own, you should be. You should not be living off the dollar of those who devote their life to achieving something.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I agree, the everyone is equal sports thing bugs the hell out of me. I know I'm going in a diff direction, but I coach football. I told the kids at the beginning of the year, if you miss an entire weeks worth of practice you will not play on Sunday. Its first for safety of not being ready, but I also feel its not fair to other kids that worked hard at practice. It only happened once, the kid missed all the practices, then on game day asked why he didn't play. I explained and he left upset. I got an email from his mother complaining and the sentence that got me was this, "If I knew that, I wouldn't have even sent him to the game".

Now back to the topic sort of. In keeping with your equality idea, I believe this. When the sexual revolution came about and women all of a sudden became as aggressive as men I think this is and was a big downfall to relationships/our society. Think about this, women had "sex" held over a mans head. You had to court the women you liked, build a relationship and then just maybe you enjoyed each other. These days its totally different.

[ron1950]

not to get too far off subject but lets face it...congress is a joke....when we get rid of the parties and have them actually repersent us instead of doing as the parties tell them to do we alll will be better off....

[drwayne]

Some very greedy people at the top of politics, industry, banks ... all fighting for their fat profit margins ... leaving the majority in economic distress
They do say turds float to the top ...

[domwilson]

I believe when you get that far up the ladder, it's no longer the money that drives them. It's the power and control. It becomes more like playing chess and we are nothing more than pawns.We are manipulated, deceived and controlled. We fight amongst ourselves over the same issues while they do their dirty work. Haven't you ever wondered how abortion, immigration, racism, taxes, government spending, communism, socialism, etc. have been on the political agendas for more than 30+ years and little to nothing has been done? What about the promise of alternate fuels that's been discussed the the 70's? What about large financial institutions and oil companies posting record profits during times of economic uncertainty? Do they really feel the pain that we do? The middle class and REAL small businesses (counted by employees and profits, not by the number of owners) need help and not politics. We need equal opportunities and not handouts. We need efficient and responsible government that serves the needs of the people it governs and not the agendas of few whose only concerns are to control. I'm finding it strange that the EU is taking up privacy concerns before our own government does.

[tharmer]

I'm reminded of a quote I heard many years ago. It concens sports, but it's applicable more widely.


Football players think that beause they're rich, they're worth it.
Football team owners think that because they're rich, they're smart.

[tharmer]

Dom,
Political courage is an oxymoron.

[Jeepers]

I agree with the mooching thing and people riding the system.

my wife is a manager at a local retail store , some of the part time employees refuse to work more hours, they complain that they will loose there government aid if the do.

Its a common trend here to be approached by people asking if you wanna buy food stamps.

[domwilson]

I agree with the mooching thing and people riding the system.

my wife is a manager at a local retail store , some of the part time employees refuse to work more hours, they complain that they will loose there government aid if the do.

Its a common trend here to be approached by people asking if you wanna buy food stamps.

It's unfortunate, but that's how the system works. Even unemployment benefits are like that. If you take a temp job for a couple of weeks, you could lose your long term benefits. It's a system designed with a unfortunate consequence.