Spartan, tear it down to build it up [Archive]

GeoVW72

02-25-2011, 01:20 AM

Well half the lake thawed out, cold water should help right? :glare:
ambient temp was 38*f

Run #1: stock packs off peak; yawn, too slow, ran for 5 min then brought in to change to 4s
esc: 50*f motor: 65*f

Run #2: 2x 2s 5400 40c orion revo packs; good fun, safe for the system, no leaks
esc: 55* motor: 70*

Run #3: 2x 3s 4700 45c orion revo packs; never topped them off after they were in my revo for 7min. Fast as it should be, pic was after run, jacket clearly leaking.
esc: 70* motor: 123*
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWHaxU8hHiI/AAAAAAAAAGk/grWVg68sV5U/s288/IMG_20110220_150850.jpg

Youtube Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdqX56nJT0)

Run #4: 2x 3s Brick; Fast, everything seemed fine then...

Youtube Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP7JqJpK1BQ)
Villain is a friend's, shortly used as the rescue craft.
esc: 70* motor: 215*
receiver thermal had kicked in, not that it meant much.

Not sure how the spartan ever did what they say it should.

Dissection:
Motor was locked tight, easy to see why;
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWSJxlNrDlI/AAAAAAAAAGw/O7gQYR_SRlg/s288/IMG_20110221_160052.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWSKxhI7MMI/AAAAAAAAAHo/fBBDZfkfUwY/s288/IMG_20110221_155543.jpg

My theory on the stuffing tube liner seems bunk at this point. Sheen was still on the outside of the liner, Inside was matte, no true damage or deformation though. Oil is inadequate for 6s operation.

Jacket leaks horridly as we all know. One thing that I noted was the water seemed to pulse slightly on the outlet. I'm not sure that the fault lies in the rudder, more the outlet. Least my rudder had the pick-up running to the front of the blade, not through. I think the design of the jacket is wrong, requiring the water to flow completely around the motor causes too much restriction and I question weather the jacket is ballooning or forced cross flow is occurring to cause the stream to pulse.

One other thing I noted was an uneven wear pattern on the front of the shaft stub.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWSKuOYzrEI/AAAAAAAAAHk/Gd2aihaLCKA/s288/IMG_20110221_163751.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWSJrvhFAZI/AAAAAAAAAGs/kg4tvxS6Q3w/s288/IMG_20110221_163734.jpg

The cable also looked like it had a small kink, not enough to cause concern though. Chucked the shaft stub in a drill and ran over the whole thing with polishing compound.

Synopsis:
Why did I do this; to prove that this boat has a snowball's chance in hell of working on 6s under the best of conditions. I like experiencing failures first hand because I am in control of the variables. The only way I see this boat doing 50+ for 20min stock is down one long ski slope.

My recommendation to anyone looking to run a spartan on 6s right now
(4s seems fine enough to me until traxxas produces the fix);
Find some good marine grease; Aquacraft (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=dh-aqub9500), Pro Boat (http://www.proboatmodels.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PRB0101)
Attempt to find a better cooling jacket (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/products.php?cat=66) preferably a can and o-ring type
Get larger line (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ose-tubing-1%2F4-clear)(3ft will do or Pro boat (http://www.proboatmodels.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PRB2679)), drill out the transom(~1/4" for larger line) and drill out the outlet(1/8" seems doable)

Currently working on the modifications, stay tuned

Tear it down to build it up

JPriami

02-25-2011, 01:44 AM

Traxxas just removed this. I was reading it. Then poof gone.

GeoVW72

02-25-2011, 01:53 AM

Yep, that's why it's here as well, don't really see how I'm bashing their product :laugh: :confused2:

wilsta67

02-25-2011, 04:54 AM

Yep, that's why it's here as well, don't really see how I'm bashing their product :laugh: :confused2:

haha good one! traxxas just dont want to admit they have designed a lemon:sinking-guy:

kjohnsiii

02-25-2011, 09:51 AM

Is there a OSE water jacket that will fit the spartan motor?

Brushless55

02-25-2011, 10:11 AM

"The only way I see this boat doing 50+ for 20min stock is down one long ski slope."

That is Awesome! :buttrock:

Traxxas just removed this. I was reading it. Then poof gone.

And again the modtrolls take lame action :ThumbsDown01:

haha good one! traxxas just dont want to admit they have designed a lemon:sinking-guy:

:iagree:

I have really lost a lot of respect for Traxxas
to me it seems money is much more important than anything else to them

Brushless55

02-25-2011, 10:12 AM

put this up on RCU
Lots of viewers there

GeoVW72

02-25-2011, 11:11 AM

Is there a OSE water jacket that will fit the spartan motor?

anything for a 540 or 36mm motor, people bought up most of the longer xl s. not sure length is really critical, but it can't hurt

kjohnsiii

02-25-2011, 11:27 AM

Thanks.

shctexas

02-25-2011, 07:19 PM

Thats exactly what happened to mine; hence, my renaming the boat Albatross.

Make-a-Wake

02-25-2011, 09:44 PM

How about the "Spruce Goose"................Howard Hughes failed attempt at a huge waterplane.............

GeoVW72

02-26-2011, 01:37 AM

Hmm...Lucky golden poo (http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/japanfan/9069/) maybe :laugh:

I think if traxxas had their way the boats would be in a dump next to the atari E.T. cartridges. Notice how we have to look for their "award". The product has had so many stumbling blocks; esc, name lawsuit, motor. I think that they're looking at one big RED number and waiting to be pulled into black before they put out more into the fix.
They're shutting up and waiting until people buy it then they'll advertise it again with the fix
The weather's been bad so I've been looking into what I can on the bench; there may be some truth in the rumor that the motors were produced to the wrong spec.
looking around 1700kv and we all know how bad 1600kv looks.

:glare: Traxxas...I know you're out there, just because it's not on your forum doesn't mean it doesn't exist :Shame_on_You:

Brushless55

02-26-2011, 10:51 AM

GeoVW72

02-28-2011, 11:47 PM

dead motor is on it's way to traxxas
got some mods done

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWSKmqMCOgI/AAAAAAAAAHg/G0RepqtFRdU/s288/IMG_20110221_192230.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWSKjNWybsI/AAAAAAAAAHc/MNXbVWpplH0/s288/IMG_20110221_192256.jpg
outlet drilled out to 1/8"
OSE 55mm jacket (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ose-mjacket-XL)
large line (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ose-tubing-1%2F4-clear)
drilled the transom out to 1/4", more than enough for large line, added bulkhead fitting (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=aero-2014)
lubed with proboat grease
strut was shifted back and set level

ambient temp was around 50*f

Run #1: 2x 2s
esc: 60* motor: 98*

Run #2 2x 3s Youtube Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnQ3JjoJd5Q)
esc: 70* motor: 158*

attempted a third run, receiver had an over temp signal on first plug in, rearmed and it was fine. arming tones were weaker, this motor may be on it's way out as well. dead packs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnD2LneQF28) :doh:

went through it at the shop and noticed some of the things that JPriami had going on with his stuffing tube. No discoloration, just black "shavings"
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWxi_tG50PI/AAAAAAAAAI0/ZfCXIYMczDg/s288/IMG_20110228_130915.jpg
Cleaned it with motor spray, shop towel, and drill
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TWxhytRpCHI/AAAAAAAAAIo/ng4otieDt5c/s288/IMG_20110228_143315.jpg

Not sure I'm doing the bench kv calculations right
running the eagle tree in live mode with a brushless rpm sensor:
13,950rpm 5A 16.1v(4s) = 866kv
20,950rpm 6A 24.1v(6s) = 850kv
if it's off by a factor of 2 = 1700kv apparently :confused2:

GeoVW72

03-02-2011, 01:28 AM

more tweaks
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TW3MuuxnqwI/AAAAAAAAAKM/BxLAPKb4qZg/s288/IMG_20110301_150024.jpg

mounted the rudder onto the other side of the bracket to increase depth of the pick-up.
traxxas 2075 servo to hold better
loosened the strut mounts and pushed it up and to the right(can only be done just slightly) added one degree of positive on the strut to air out the prop
with JPriami's issues and what I've seen of the stock liner, installed an octura liner (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=oct-oc150t-24)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TW3MqG0hAoI/AAAAAAAAAKI/MySWsnYeJ9U/s288/IMG_20110301_130333.jpg

cleaning the cable out also helps, not sure where the gunk keeps coming from. any chance the assembly lube is still stuck in there :confused2:

ambient 35*f

Run #1: 2x 2s
esc: 50* motor: 85*

Run #2: 2x 3s
esc: 60* motor: 135*

Octura liner works great so far :thumbup:, greased liberally, still had the sheen on the interior bore with zero signs of wear, where as the traxxas has shown obvious wear throughout.
Handling was changed with the rudder mounted differently, hooks hard when turning left, but throw was also changed. easy mod, so I leave it to personal preference. more flow isn't a bad thing though :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

03-02-2011, 04:58 PM

I dought there is any assembly lube used on these shafts
but do use a high quality grease
all grease will discolor some

GeoVW72

03-03-2011, 12:05 AM

well, chalk another one up :glare:
esc has started the "flutter" and the motor's lost it's poles

ambient 45*f

Run#1: 2x 2s
esc: 50* motor: 98*

Run# 2: 2x 3s
esc: 70* motor: 123*

Run# 3: 2x 3s
esc: 99* motor: 165*-188*
5 min into run 3, running straight and it just starts the flutter.
Bring it in and take the temps, 10 sec later the receiver starts the over temp blink and the motor temp rose to the second reading.
Waited 10 min for things to cool down then sent it back out to make sure it wasn't a fluke, it wasn't :closedeyes:

Dissection:
Motor has no feel of the poles
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TW8NHXR6WSI/AAAAAAAAAKk/D9mQwAIpgek/s288/IMG_20110302_142805.jpg
A few black fiberglass strands were floating around the can, not 100% sure where they came from, seems around the rotor caps :confused2:
bearings are ok, rear is smooth, front feels a little dirty, both were lubed with Boca grease (http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-inventory/13935/MARINEGREASEPOWER-LBT-Lightning-Lube)
motor smells strongly of burnt electronics, no apparent damage to windings, maybe the epoxy cooked :confused2:

Flex is fine, lubed liberally with Pro boat grease (http://www.proboatmodels.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PRB0100), sheen still on the interior and exterior of the liner. The stub shows some odd wear patterns though

esc shows no damage, not that much can be seen.
temped everything;
heat-sink: 99*
caps: 110*
motor wires: 101*
batt plugs: 122*

Conclusion:
Running around 7 minutes on the set up is the limit before the components are heat soaked, motor damage due to heat may have contributed to the event based on the fact that the arming tones were not as they previously had sounded.

Next step:
Test y-ing the line to reduce motor temp, explore consequential outlets and pick-ups......after things come back from traxxas :Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

03-10-2011, 09:35 PM

Got a motor back from Traxxas, mostly in one peace.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TXk0tDa1v8I/AAAAAAAAAN8/bZUHKXuYbkI/s288/IMG_20110310_143612.jpg

other things of note

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TXk06EQmdjI/AAAAAAAAANU/beCROKzWQMs/s400/IMG_20110310_121259.jpg

Stator wrap missing so bad that you can see the outside of the can.
and

H2ajkxVLY-Q

Motor shaft also had set screw mount marks
:laugh: Try, try again.
Have the Y-ed set-up ready to go

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TXk01y3zHNI/AAAAAAAAANQ/w7BDtsGtPl4/s400/IMG_20110310_152824.jpg

Results tomorrow :Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

03-11-2011, 11:55 PM

looks good, so far
got the eagle tree installed

ambient: 32*f

Run #1:
2x 2s 5200 40C
Time: 12 min
Max speed: 25 mph
Max amp: 45
Esc: 54* Motor: 70*

Run#2:
2x 3s 4700 45C
Time: 6 min
Max speed: 45 mph
Max amp: 103
Esc: 70* Motor: 125*

Run#3:
2x 3s 8000 20C
Time 11 min
Max speed: 45 mph
Max amp: 115
Esc: 90* Motor: 125*

Eagle tree got me excited when I first downloaded the run, listed the max as 54 mph :huh:, but then went through the playback and towards the end the data went funky because of the water in the hull.
I really hoped that the 8000mah packs would get the mythical 20 min run time, but you're going to need twice that to even scratch it :glare:

To recap set-up; turn fins squared up with the hull, trim tabs level, strut level for this run, batteries mid-front CG around 25%.

dag-nabit

03-12-2011, 12:15 AM

GeoVW72

03-12-2011, 01:49 AM

Just curious if you got a reading for average amps.

The max amps are well within the 300 amp burst rating of the stock ESC, but I'm wondering how close the average amps are to the 80 amp continuous rating for the stock ESC.

Kevin

I didn't download the data after every run, so it was one long stream, have to play with the software some and see what I can make it do.
Watching the play-back 60~80 was around the average which is where I think they came up with the rating.
300 is way out there, I think that's just what they could run until it blew.
ie. the way out hp # for 5 sec. :laugh:

Brushless55

03-12-2011, 12:40 PM

Just curious if you got a reading for average amps.

The max amps are well within the 300 amp burst rating of the stock ESC, but I'm wondering how close the average amps are to the 80 amp continuous rating for the stock ESC.

Kevin

Just to get an idea
on run #3 with 8000mah packs for 11min run down to 20% would come up at about 35amps cont. :biggrin:
run #1 would be about 21amps cont.
run #2 would be about 38amps cont.

dag-nabit

03-12-2011, 12:56 PM

Just to get an idea
on run #3 with 8000mah packs for 11min run down to 20% would come up at about 35amps cont. :biggrin:
run #1 would be about 21amps cont.
run #2 would be about 38amps cont.

Thanks Brushless, :thumbup1:

Well within the "rated" limits of the ESC, which serves to further confirm everyone's suspicions that the ESC problems are quality related, rather than it being undersized for 6S setup.

Kevin

GeoVW72

03-13-2011, 12:16 AM

Brushless55:
I agree that the math is correct for the average amp consumption throughout the run, but is not the average amp load on the esc.
I will work on presenting the data in support. :wink:

dag-nabit:
All of traxxas's esc are suffering from the same quality issues. Based on the fact that they changed the esc from the prototype, I think it is speced well, but we all know the motor is not up to the task.
That is one of the major roots of the issues. The motor is under speced and inefficent so it generates heat that isn't carried away by the cooling system. That translates into a higher amp draw on the esc and a higher esc temp, that in the standard series loop transmits and compounds to the motor issue until the system melts down.
Around 7-10 min as far as I've found out :laugh:

More data and better presentation tomorrow :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

03-13-2011, 01:23 PM

GeoVW72

03-13-2011, 11:57 PM

not perfect, but I have graphs

ambient: 38*f

Run# 1: 2x 2s shoved the packs all the way back
Esc: 54* Motor: 70*
Speed: 30 mph
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TX2DmaX8KEI/AAAAAAAAAOo/9blD9WM3WFY/s640/Trx%20Spar%204s.jpg

Run# 2: 2x 3s started with the packs back, then moved them forward
Esc: 70* Motor: 100*
Speed: 44
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TX2E3ntAdRI/AAAAAAAAAO4/GTeLSn8IzaQ/s640/Trx%20Spar%206s%203.jpg
YT Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG83WfFSb8M&feature=player_embedded) is after I moved the packs up

Run# 3: 2x 3s
Esc: 94* Motor: 127*
Speed: 45
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TX2E_4O8bTI/AAAAAAAAAO8/_MpOMVL4m4U/s640/Trx%20Spar%206s%204.jpg
YT Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSWNOtS4Rf8&feature=player_embedded)

I tried to create an amp spike by launching from a dead stop, but the esc seems to have a current limit or soft start :sneaky2:
ESC temp is a little concerning, as the last one failed at 99*, but what concerns me more is the temp of the caps.

I've seen temps of 140-160*f on the caps of this esc and being that traxxas has potted and sealed them so they don't blow, I wounder what temp they will go thermo-nuclear at.
May have to add a cap board to help the fixing :unsure:

Commence more tweaking :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

03-14-2011, 12:09 AM

You have a peak of 122amps, that is not a soft setting, that sounds norm..

JPriami

03-14-2011, 04:41 AM

Nice work Geo

Brushless55

03-14-2011, 10:43 AM

Nice work Geo

I agree, and I think this is the first real readout on the stock motor.. :thumbup1:

shctexas

03-14-2011, 01:12 PM

Ok, fresh stuff in boat 4082 1450kv seaking, 180 amp esc, in hull h20 pick-up and x645 prop. 43 mph before prop 49+ after prop....yikes! I can't imagine 58mph but I'm gonna try to get there. There's some pretty serious torque roll when you nail-it; not quite as dramatic when power is rolled on. All in all a success:thumbup:

Brushless55

03-14-2011, 01:23 PM

shctexas

03-15-2011, 06:13 PM

Tough day at the pond. Turtle city! Little hard-shelled denizens of destruction:cursing:.Lost flex drive due to turtle hit....or pilot error, we'll never know for sure but I'm going with the turtle story. Broke a rudder on the Miss Vegas, definitely turtle.......right?

I need a flex drive for the Spart. I'm interested in a piano drive because that seems to be a step up but I know nothing bout them. Wasn't Wohlt (spelling) building them? Any thoughts, recommendations other than watch out for the tiny bobbing heads?
Thanks.

GeoVW72

03-15-2011, 10:41 PM

JPriami, Brushless55
Thanks guys :beerchug:
I know I'm :frusty: trying to get the stock stuff to work, but someone has to make a well thought out fix or show Traxxas their selling snow cones in h*ll :laugh:

Brushless55, you were close on the average amp load, I'm just thinking of it differently, what it takes to push the boat vs. the avg. load.
I don't think that the esc has a soft limit, just a soft start.

fluttering esc and toast motor at traxxas

ambient: 40*f

Run#1: 2x 2s
time: 8min
esc: 55* motor: 78*
Speed: 27 mph
graph on the netbook

Run#2: 2x 3s
time: 5
esc: 80* motor: 120*
speed: 44
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYARce4VFgI/AAAAAAAAAPk/xXQ1qwGOdxg/s640/Trx%20Spar%206s%205.jpg
YT Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noTCXtGCN7g)

Run#3: 2x 3s
time: 8
esc: 109* motor: 158*
speed: 43
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYARl3iyc9I/AAAAAAAAAPo/hLKR71U7rOk/s640/Trx%20Spar%206s%206.jpg

packs forward for all runs, strut was at a positive angle that's how I got 27 on 4s, but at the end of the session it seemed level again must have not tightened it enough.
the high temps have me concerned, specially the caps 170*, so I've had to break down and change the rudder nipple to larger id.

Pics tomorrow providing it works out :Peace_Sign:

JPriami

03-15-2011, 11:07 PM

That strut is crap. Mine loosened up a few times till I learned you have to crank that bloody wanka down. :lol: And its done the same to several other people I have spoken too.

Still want to say good work Geo. I like that your going to the proving grounds with this boat stock to give it a work out with stats and proof.

GeoVW72

03-18-2011, 11:20 PM

...Once, then the esc started the flutter :lol:

Ambient 65*f

Run# 1: 2x 2s
esc: 66* motor: 90*
Speed: 27
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYK93O2lCqI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/fLr85nrq_mA/s640/3%3B17%204s.jpg

Run#2: 2x 3s
esc: 80* motor: 130*
Speed: 49
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYK-C7mSOYI/AAAAAAAAARA/DdvQmSSNErk/s640/3%3B17%206s%201.jpg

Run#3: 2x 3s
esc: 120* motor: 165*
Speed: 51
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYK-Nxi09GI/AAAAAAAAARM/EOF_tAZGHnM/s640/3%3B17%206s%202.jpg

Motor has the same toated smell and some of the epoxy wrap fell off.
Seems as though the esc should be rated at 150A not 300A

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYOFK1AtJ1I/AAAAAAAAARg/I9ugw-QHLTQ/s288/IMG_20110318_105454.jpg
That was the nipple I was using from These (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=etti-a029)

Waiting on the toasted motor and esc to come back to do it again :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

03-19-2011, 01:36 PM

was this on the stock prop or are you using one different??
thanks

JPriami

03-19-2011, 02:20 PM

stock prop im betting. He has been working hard to made real data of a stock spartan for proof of whats going on with these boats.

GeoVW72

03-19-2011, 05:01 PM

was this on the stock prop or are you using one different??
thanks

Stock prop, The mods I've listed are the mods I've done 100% :thumbup:

Brushless55

03-19-2011, 05:14 PM

Stock prop, The mods I've listed are the mods I've done 100% :thumbup:

well I see a 51mph on the stock prop :w00t:

GeoVW72

03-19-2011, 08:11 PM

well I see a 51mph on the stock prop :w00t:

Yep and it took all that it had :laugh:
And then it didn't want to do it any more :rofl:

TheShaughnessy

03-19-2011, 11:37 PM

"The only way I see this boat doing 50+ for 20min stock is down one long ski slope."

That is Awesome! :buttrock:

And again the modtrolls take lame action :ThumbsDown01:

:iagree:

I have really lost a lot of respect for Traxxas
to me it seems money is much more important than anything else to them

Just had to comment on this thread. Thankfully I don't own a spartan, i have a MG and a SV27.

I was at RCX in Pomona today where all the rc vendors get together and put on a show. Traxxas had the Spartan set up in an aquarium type deal with the strut set to maximum negative angle and had another model sitting outside of the tank. After thoroughly dissecting the boat i noticed plastic that seems to be worse the the MG hatch, then i saw these little cheesy metal things on the back, i think they were trim tabs but I'm still not to sure on that one. Then i notice this ugly gap between the stinger and the hull, is the flex shaft exposed like that on everyone's spartan? Right where it exits the hull before it enters the stinger? It just seemed like it would create a little bit of extra drag, did i mention it was ugly looking. During this 3-4 min not once did a traxxas rep come up to me and make small talk like every other vendor did.

So I'm still browsing around checking out their car stuff cause it is actually pretty cool when a guy starts talking about how cool the boat is ( someone spooled it up every now and then to shoot water all over) so I simply say, "read the forums before you buy this boat, that's all i'm gonna say." Next thing i know some overweight traxxas rep is yelling at me to get out of the booth cause he doesn't want to hear it from me, says he doesn't want to deal with it and to just get out of the booth, i'm pretty sure he wanted to hit me in the face (He didn't make my day though). Eventually i stepped off his carpet and just talked to him from there.

I was kinda baffeled by the whole thing so i asked the guy, if there wasn't a problem with the boat why was he getting so defensive. I said i know of a bunch of guys blowing the esc on 6s. He said, "what the 10 guys i the forum?" ( So you guys know they obviously don't care about you,or at least he doesn't. Then i start telling him how his yelling is just coming off as weakness and that if what i was saying wasn't true they would still buy the boat.

Finally Greg, they other traxxas rep there stepped in and asked what was going on. We had a little talk and he more or less apologized for his buffoon of a co worker. So just like your post was deleted from the forums i was deleted from the Traxxas booth. One thing i told Greg was that no one has hit 50 with one of their stock boats that I know of, to which he simply replied, "I did."

That's all for now. I may include more more of mine and Greg's conversation later.

JPriami

03-20-2011, 12:02 AM

Thanks for sharing that. And if you post more I'd read it. So please do. There's more than 10 guys on a forum with problems.

wilsta67

03-20-2011, 12:03 AM

Just had to comment on this thread. Thankfully I don't own a spartan, i have a MG and a SV27.

I was at RCX in Pomona today where all the rc vendors get together and put on a show. Traxxas had the Spartan set up in an aquarium type deal with the strut set to maximum negative angle and had another model sitting outside of the tank. After thoroughly dissecting the boat i noticed plastic that seems to be worse the the MG hatch, then i saw these little cheesy metal things on the back, i think they were trim tabs but I'm still not to sure on that one. Then i notice this ugly gap between the stinger and the hull, is the flex shaft exposed like that on everyone's spartan? Right where it exits the hull before it enters the stinger? It just seemed like it would create a little bit of extra drag, did i mention it was ugly looking. During this 3-4 min not once did a traxxas rep come up to me and make small talk like every other vendor did.

So I'm still browsing around checking out their car stuff cause it is actually pretty cool when a guy starts talking about how cool the boat is ( someone spooled it up every now and then to shoot water all over) so I simply say, "read the forums before you buy this boat, that's all i'm gonna say." Next thing i know some overweight traxxas rep is yelling at me to get out of the booth cause he doesn't want to hear it from me, says he doesn't want to deal with it and to just get out of the booth, i'm pretty sure he wanted to hit me in the face (He didn't make my day though). Eventually i stepped off his carpet and just talked to him from there.

I was kinda baffeled by the whole thing so i asked the guy, if there wasn't a problem with the boat why was he getting so defensive. I said i know of a bunch of guys blowing the esc on 6s. He said, "what the 10 guys i the forum?" ( So you guys know they obviously don't care about you,or at least he doesn't. Then i start telling him how his yelling is just coming off as weakness and that if what i was saying wasn't true they would still buy the boat.

Finally Greg, they other traxxas rep there stepped in and asked what was going on. We had a little talk and he more or less apologized for his buffoon of a co worker. So just like your post was deleted from the forums i was deleted from the Traxxas booth. One thing i told Greg was that no one has hit 50 with one of their stock boats that I know of, to which he simply replied, "I did."

That's all for now. I may include more more of mine and Greg's conversation later.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

hey next time you see him tell him there is this guy that has had his over 60mph
but thats after spending $500 after frying his esc lol
VIDEO.. VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV VVVVVVVV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dTyfi8_agc

Brushless55

03-20-2011, 01:21 AM

Just had to comment on this thread. Thankfully I don't own a spartan, i have a MG and a SV27.

I was at RCX in Pomona today where all the rc vendors get together and put on a show. Traxxas had the Spartan set up in an aquarium type deal with the strut set to maximum negative angle and had another model sitting outside of the tank. After thoroughly dissecting the boat i noticed plastic that seems to be worse the the MG hatch, then i saw these little cheesy metal things on the back, i think they were trim tabs but I'm still not to sure on that one. Then i notice this ugly gap between the stinger and the hull, is the flex shaft exposed like that on everyone's spartan? Right where it exits the hull before it enters the stinger? It just seemed like it would create a little bit of extra drag, did i mention it was ugly looking. During this 3-4 min not once did a traxxas rep come up to me and make small talk like every other vendor did.

So I'm still browsing around checking out their car stuff cause it is actually pretty cool when a guy starts talking about how cool the boat is ( someone spooled it up every now and then to shoot water all over) so I simply say, "read the forums before you buy this boat, that's all i'm gonna say." Next thing i know some overweight traxxas rep is yelling at me to get out of the booth cause he doesn't want to hear it from me, says he doesn't want to deal with it and to just get out of the booth, i'm pretty sure he wanted to hit me in the face (He didn't make my day though). Eventually i stepped off his carpet and just talked to him from there.

I was kinda baffeled by the whole thing so i asked the guy, if there wasn't a problem with the boat why was he getting so defensive. I said i know of a bunch of guys blowing the esc on 6s. He said, "what the 10 guys i the forum?" ( So you guys know they obviously don't care about you,or at least he doesn't. Then i start telling him how his yelling is just coming off as weakness and that if what i was saying wasn't true they would still buy the boat.

Finally Greg, they other traxxas rep there stepped in and asked what was going on. We had a little talk and he more or less apologized for his buffoon of a co worker. So just like your post was deleted from the forums i was deleted from the Traxxas booth. One thing i told Greg was that no one has hit 50 with one of their stock boats that I know of, to which he simply replied, "I did."

That's all for now. I may include more more of mine and Greg's conversation later.

wow, this just makes me not like Traxxas all the more :ThumbsDown01:

dag-nabit

03-20-2011, 08:39 AM

Just had to comment on this thread. Thankfully I don't own a spartan, i have a MG and a SV27.

I was at RCX in Pomona today where all the rc vendors get together and put on a show. Traxxas had the Spartan set up in an aquarium type deal with the strut set to maximum negative angle and had another model sitting outside of the tank. After thoroughly dissecting the boat i noticed plastic that seems to be worse the the MG hatch, then i saw these little cheesy metal things on the back, i think they were trim tabs but I'm still not to sure on that one. Then i notice this ugly gap between the stinger and the hull, is the flex shaft exposed like that on everyone's spartan? Right where it exits the hull before it enters the stinger? It just seemed like it would create a little bit of extra drag, did i mention it was ugly looking. During this 3-4 min not once did a traxxas rep come up to me and make small talk like every other vendor did.

So I'm still browsing around checking out their car stuff cause it is actually pretty cool when a guy starts talking about how cool the boat is ( someone spooled it up every now and then to shoot water all over) so I simply say, "read the forums before you buy this boat, that's all i'm gonna say." Next thing i know some overweight traxxas rep is yelling at me to get out of the booth cause he doesn't want to hear it from me, says he doesn't want to deal with it and to just get out of the booth, i'm pretty sure he wanted to hit me in the face (He didn't make my day though). Eventually i stepped off his carpet and just talked to him from there.

I was kinda baffeled by the whole thing so i asked the guy, if there wasn't a problem with the boat why was he getting so defensive. I said i know of a bunch of guys blowing the esc on 6s. He said, "what the 10 guys i the forum?" ( So you guys know they obviously don't care about you,or at least he doesn't. Then i start telling him how his yelling is just coming off as weakness and that if what i was saying wasn't true they would still buy the boat.

Finally Greg, they other traxxas rep there stepped in and asked what was going on. We had a little talk and he more or less apologized for his buffoon of a co worker. So just like your post was deleted from the forums i was deleted from the Traxxas booth. One thing i told Greg was that no one has hit 50 with one of their stock boats that I know of, to which he simply replied, "I did."

That's all for now. I may include more more of mine and Greg's conversation later.

That is pretty sad.

Any company can have a bad product from time to time, how they deal with it is what defines how good the company is.

This is definitely not the way to deal with it.

Kevin

bigcam406

03-20-2011, 10:04 AM

arrogance,pure and simple:thumbsdown:

Brushless55

03-20-2011, 11:32 AM

That is pretty sad.

Any company can have a bad product from time to time, how they deal with it is what defines how good the company is.

This is definitely not the way to deal with it.

Kevin

:iagree:
great way to put it Kevin :beerchug:

GeoVW72

03-20-2011, 04:46 PM

Thank You for the info TheShaughnessy
I wondered if they would have any Spartans at RCX.
I do have one Q: did you happen to see the rccaraction boat of the year award?
It seems to have disappeared... wonder if it's at the bottom of the lake with the prototype :lol:

I think all us "10 guys on the forums" can agree that Traxxas has done the worst job at addressing the issues. I would think that given the delay they would have taken notes from Pro boats problems with the MG. I think that the overweight rep. was probably the PR manager who is a little too high on his own mantra "why fix it, blame the customer for breaking it"

Brushless55

03-20-2011, 06:20 PM

wilsta67

03-21-2011, 03:52 AM

well i ordered my proboat MG today,:rockon2:
i hope its not a failure like my spartan has been.:ThumbsDown01:

shctexas

03-21-2011, 09:00 AM

The MG may be a disappointment.......no fire, no flames, no "smoke on the water", no expensive and extensive mods. Your weekends will be free to run your boats rather than rehab them. Oh and you will be missed here as it won't need to document your rebuild. The MG is great little boat that does what its supposed to do.

Brushless55

03-21-2011, 10:09 AM

GeoVW72

03-22-2011, 11:40 PM

Think I found the overweight rep.

Looking through rccaraction's vids (http://www.rccaraction.com/blog/2011/03/22/video-coverage-rcx-2011/) from RCX and Traxxas's "awards" and found Peter Vieira.
Quick look around found his LinkedIn profile (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/peter-vieira/16/459/2bb)
And as I said he is the marketing rep too high on his own mantra:roflol:
Also had a friend who is sponsored by RC4WD (http://store.rc4wd.com/) at RCX show them the blown motor and ask them what to do/they doing about it, also said they were very defensive.

This was what I got:
Make sure the driveline is greased. Oil wears too fast. The drag from the lack of grease will put just enough strain on the motor at those speeds. :w00t:

:blink: Two months and that's what we got, that's about as "official" as it's going to get on them admitting a mistake.
Maybe he ate the award, you can see him eyeing the other ones :drool:

JPriami

03-22-2011, 11:59 PM

Let's see. Let's pump up a boat release. Give it an award to show how awesome it is. Let the main guy behind the boat go from the company. Delay the release of the boat.
Finally release the boat.
Find crooked graphics on the boats
Find a problem with the rudders & cooling system
Find problems with the silicon motor cooling jackets
Have motor failures
Have esc failures
Have flex cables that come ungreased in an RTR with batteries
Give people light oil to oil their cables
Post 50+mph all over this thing and find it's possible, but it's a fat chance in hell and you have to just about blow it up to get there.

Oh I'm sure there is some I've missed

No let's not address these issues just fix what burns up for people. And get bent out of shape if it's personally addressed at an event.

Good way to go huh?

Brushless55

03-23-2011, 12:53 AM

GeoVW72

03-24-2011, 12:05 AM

Brushless55, if you got something to say, say it this isn't the Traxxas forum :biggrin:

The only other things that come to mind are, the motor:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYqs_Wyx7RI/AAAAAAAAAT4/xZF85fCe9Uk/s400/IMG_20110323_125326.jpg
Yes that's the can showing through the stator windings.
And the motor.
kD1HCP1-YKQ

And the fact that there is no info until after you blow it up
No updated manual, nothing

Anyway, more stuff to blow up :w00t:
Starting to become rather good at it.

More mods:
larger outlet:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYqsIQGZC3I/AAAAAAAAATI/1m4WiPb3O0k/s288/IMG_20110318_151409.jpg
working on adding a second one.

Using a proven rudder:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TYqscrOi1rI/AAAAAAAAATU/SRUjWsfWxBE/s400/IMG_20110323_155013.jpg
Pick-up height is slightly different, but should provide good flow. At least we know it works with other systems.

Also forgot, Peter V is on this forum; PeterTRAXXAS

Results shortly :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

03-24-2011, 12:42 AM

Oh I hear the flex shafts suck to!
some are coming apart :thumbsdown:

GeoVW72

03-25-2011, 11:34 PM

Hmm.... haven't had that happen yet, but the manufacturing quality, at least on the escs, seems to be slipping.

Mods buttoned up:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TY1PVZmr53I/AAAAAAAAAVI/rpgi-ITfnoU/s288/IMG_20110324_141955.jpg
top esc; bottom motor, sightly enlarged
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TY1PQLReDOI/AAAAAAAAAU8/KJtrgJeMqYw/s288/IMG_20110324_144313.jpg
MG rudder works well

Ambient: 33*f

Run #1: 2x 2s
esc: 55* motor: 78*
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TY1SRmnam9I/AAAAAAAAAVQ/snvswBjhpic/s640/Trx%20Spar%204s%203%3B25.jpg

Run #2:
esc: 70* motor: 100*
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TY1SbVZTnlI/AAAAAAAAAVY/1HXR98QSd5c/s640/Trx%20Spar%206s%201%203%3B25.jpg

Run #3:
esc: 70* motor: 100*
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TY1SlpAAGWI/AAAAAAAAAVk/NCU3vEhfTLs/s640/Trx%20Spar%206s%202%203%3B25.jpg

cont. pics.

GeoVW72

03-26-2011, 12:37 AM

In the interest in being through and adhering to Traxxas's invaluable advice, I didn't lube the exterior of the teflon liner.
Had a dry no-lube squeal on the first run, but not sure if that was the rotor slipping or the teflon vs. brass. everything else was lubed to death.
Anyway, went through the rest of the runs without incident except for a lot of water in the hull because I had damaged the jacket and didn't repair it well.
Tore the boat down and blew the tube out on a shop towel:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TY1Oy7NDqCI/AAAAAAAAAV8/_x-yXVPdzCQ/s400/IMG_20110325_165852.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TY1PGD9WJ-I/AAAAAAAAAUw/5ACx3_BV6FE/s400/IMG_20110325_172607.jpg
Essentially created teflon dandruff. I think that the only thing that prevented the drive-line from locking up was the water in the hull. Some of the teflon chunks are actually stuck on the brass tube part way up, above the water line I'm guessing.
I inspected the outside of the liner and could find no apparent damage.

So in essence one of my original theories is correct, there is damaging friction that exists between the teflon liner and the brass stuffing tube because that is not a typical place for lubrication requirement.
Perhaps Traxxas was hoping that the liner would just bed in.

Also I had been running another set-up while waiting for more stock parts, and in keeping track of the run times vs. stock I noticed that they were longer by about 2 min with the same packs.
The setup includes an amp hungry 4 pole motor and esc, but the run times were longer on the same prop.
Hmm.... where is the power going :olleyes:

The answer is HEAT
The stock power system is taking about 30% of the available power and turning it into heat.
Heat that has to be carried away by a cooling system and if that heat is not carried away fast enough it turns into more amp draw, esc heat, and in the standard series cooling system more motor heat.
In other words the stock setup compounds the inherent issue.

The inherent issue is that the stock motor is horridly designed, it generates heat just spinning under no load. All the cooling in the world won't fix a motor that at it's core cannot operate efficiently.
We're all :frusty: trying to make the stock motor work.

The stock motor is 98% of the issue and Traxxas is too cheep to just fix it :Shame_on_You:

Hoping they wake the **** up :Peace_Sign:

JPriami

03-26-2011, 01:03 AM

I posted this on traxxas a moment ago. maybe it will help.
So I am modifying a spartan for a friend. His boat is pretty much brand new(only run a few times)and all stock. I took the drive cable out and looked at it. It felt different than mine. It was stiffer and the wires on it didn't flex when i put the cable in both hands pinched it with my fingers and pulled a bit. Mine flexes and you can see it moving apart. So here is my theory. The stock cable can weaken over time especially if you run an upgraded system with a larger prop. Then once it gets weak its swelling up too much and begins to cause more friction in the stuffing tube. And can potentially bind to a halt like mine did. Or fry your system.
Word to the wise keep an eye on that.

JPriami

03-26-2011, 01:09 AM

With my leopard 4082, t-180 & m645 and the stock flex cable and strut. when i hit LVC and brought the boat back. I was putting 5150mah and maybe a little more back in my 5000mah packs. But now with the piano wire drive and new strut. I have way less resistance. and when I hit LVC and come back in. I charge my packs and they are just at 4900mah put back in or so but not over 5000mah at all. so I know from the motor back its nothing but a problematic drive line for sure.

martin

03-26-2011, 05:30 AM

Isnt it bad for the lipo to take them down to more than 80%, So theirs 20% left in them ie a 5000mah shouldnt take more than 4000mah when recharged. As i have the same problem on some of my packs where theirs only around 10% left in them after lvc cuts in. Is this a sign of lipo needs replacing. Thanks.

Brushless55

03-26-2011, 04:52 PM

martin

03-26-2011, 05:43 PM

Thanks Brushless55,Any idea how many charges you should expect from lipos providing nothing bad happens to them. Also i believe they reach a peak after a certain amount of charges, Any idea how long that peak lasts before the they slowly go down & maximum performance of the boat is affected. Thanks

Brushless55

03-26-2011, 07:31 PM

TrailblazerSS

03-28-2011, 09:03 PM

Can someone help find where Traxxas claims the boat should run for 20min on 6S?

Brushless55

03-28-2011, 09:13 PM

Can someone help find where Traxxas claims the boat should run for 20min on 6S?

on there forums, but good chance they deleted it

GeoVW72

03-29-2011, 01:07 AM

TrailblazerSS: I think that was on their site before, they had problems and many posts/threads were lost. regardless it was a rumor and the fact is it won't run for 4 min out of the box on 6s without thermaling or blowing up.

ambient 30*f

Run#1 2x 2s
esc: 54* motor: 78*
max amp: 48 speed: 27mph
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZZQLItTw_M)

Run #2 2x 3s
esc: 77* motor: 100*
amp: 96 speed: 44
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVl7R18IoG0)

Run #3 2x 3s
amp: 101 speed: 45
esc: 79* motor: 100*
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=extMtTd2LC4)

keeping with the "Traxxas knows best" theme and while I had the MG rudder on it, modded the stock one.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZFR6iIlSpI/AAAAAAAAAWE/iq5-Yj8Ga8o/s400/IMG_20110326_131907.jpg
mounted in the stock location

ambient: 32*

Run#1 2x2s
esc: 56* motor: 79*
amp: 49 speed: 27

Run#2 2x 3s
esc: 77* motor: 100*
amp: 92* speed: 44*

Run#3 2x 3s
esc: 79* motor: 110*
amp: 106* speed: 46

log graphs available on request, don't really see the need to clutter the post with large pics.

again not lubing the outside of the teflon, but no dry squeal as of recent, a lot less teflon flakes too. but it is starting to create very noticeable wear on the exterior of the liner before and after the bend.

I am curious about NC's post on the other forum.
I see no real improvement that could be made with the new boats unless their shipping with a 4 pole motor :glare:, but I know they won't do that :Shame_on_You: that would seem too much like a recall issue, unless they sneak them in.

My guess is that they'll tweak a few things;
bare minimum,
rudder inlet diameter
motor construction
outlet size
under radar,
esc piping diameter
motor jacket
strut mount position
should be done IMHO,
4 pole motor
metal jacket
rudder inlet lower on left face

My guess is that all us 10 guy beta V1.0 testers are going to get screwed because we were tasked with burning up their old stock.

My Theory is that Traxxas changed motor manufactures recently(the single end cap design vs. the old two cap on the standard VXLs) because as I have seen they are no good and we have had to deal with the old manufacturer defects from last year, that is more than likely the "big" change, :huh: that I don't really see helping much, unless it really is that much more efficent or they exceed my expectations and put a 4 pole in.
Which would have been good to know, but goes back to my big red number issue.

George :Peace_Sign:

JPriami

03-29-2011, 01:14 AM

As always good stuff George. I like your thinking and speculations on whats going on. Gives food for thought.

GeoVW72

03-29-2011, 08:50 PM

Thanks Justin
That's about the only conclusion I can draw based on what Traxxas is doing. They knew that the motor would be an issue and a recall would hurt them even more financially and hurt their image, not that what they've been doing is any better.
I know I don't recommend the boat to anyone.
They think that the "New" motor will be all that and a bag o' chips, but I think they are too full of themselves.
Although some people seem to be getting by on the stock system, maybe 1in250 motors is actually constructed without large stator gaps.

:laugh: by sheer chance I found the old rccaraction mag with the Titan article and interview with Tim Roberts, After I scan it I'll have to post it.

Did some tear down of the boat;
re-lubed the bearings, motor already stinks but no rotor epoxy discoloration.

had left the strut mounts alone to try and retain that setting, but after I cleaned them up and shoved 'em back to the right and up the boat ran better.
bent the trim tabs up 1* more, should just take them off

mounted the rudder on the left side of the mount again, but left the push rod in the outer hole.
boat handles about the same if not more planted, flow is better and seems more consistent.

Ambient: 32*f

Run#1 2x 2s
esc: 51* motor: 76*
max amp: 50 speed: 27mph

Run#2 2x 3s
esc: 70* motor: 98*
amp: 91 speed: 45

Run #3 2x 3s
esc: 78* motor: 110*
amp: 141 speed 44

amp spike was caused by throttling out of a hook spin.

lots of teflon flakes this time, tried to illustrate the wear best I could(ran a sharpie over it and wiped the excess off, left in the groves)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZJsQkU2WtI/AAAAAAAAAY0/xxSSTu0xeqc/s400/IMG_20110329_123705.jpg
drive-line temps are only about 20* over ambient

since it's Traxxas week, and I want to make sure I do my part in burning through the old motors :lol:
I brought the stock jacket back
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZJsZH0343I/AAAAAAAAAXs/oMrnp_KnE54/s288/IMG_20110329_144916.jpg
but not without modification
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZJsePvfZNI/AAAAAAAAAX0/Ob5Vt4asz4I/s288/IMG_20110328_131729.jpg
I was going to bring it back at some point after temps seem to stabilize and I think that some cross flow can help prevent ballooning/leaking and allow more flow over the motor.

Results tomorrow :Peace_Sign:

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 12:20 PM

First off, let me apologize for not getting to this board way, way sooner. If you ever want to get the word from Traxxas into a thread, email a link to me at pvieira(at)traxxas.com. In the meantime, I'm trying to go through the threads and clear up any misinformation that I can (for example, we've never claimed 20 minutes of run-time from the Spartan). Please DO send me links to threads you think I need to hit ASAP, here at Offshore Electrics or on other boards, and I'll get there as soon as I can.

Brushless55

03-30-2011, 12:30 PM

Thanks Justin
That's about the only conclusion I can draw based on what Traxxas is doing. They knew that the motor would be an issue and a recall would hurt them even more financially and hurt their image, not that what they've been doing is any better.
I know I don't recommend the boat to anyone.
They think that the "New" motor will be all that and a bag o' chips, but I think they are too full of themselves.
Although some people seem to be getting by on the stock system, maybe 1in250 motors is actually constructed without large stator gaps.

by sheer chance I found the old rccaraction mag with the Titan article and interview with Tim Roberts, After I scan it I'll have to post it.

Did some tear down of the boat;
re-lubed the bearings, motor already stinks but no rotor epoxy discoloration.

had left the strut mounts alone to try and retain that setting, but after I cleaned them up and shoved 'em back to the right and up the boat ran better.
bent the trim tabs up 1* more, should just take them off

mounted the rudder on the left side of the mount again, but left the push rod in the outer hole.
boat handles about the same if not more planted, flow is better and seems more consistent.

Ambient: 32*f

Run#1 2x 2s
esc: 51* motor: 76*
max amp: 50 speed: 27mph

Run#2 2x 3s
esc: 70* motor: 98*
amp: 91 speed: 45

Run #3 2x 3s
esc: 78* motor: 110*
amp: 141 speed 44

amp spike was caused by throttling out of a hook spin.

lots of teflon flakes this time, tried to illustrate the wear best I could(ran a sharpie over it and wiped the excess off, left in the groves)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZJsQkU2WtI/AAAAAAAAAY0/xxSSTu0xeqc/s400/IMG_20110329_123705.jpg
drive-line temps are only about 20* over ambient

since it's Traxxas week, and I want to make sure I do my part in burning through the old motors :lol:
I brought the stock jacket back
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZJsZH0343I/AAAAAAAAAXs/oMrnp_KnE54/s288/IMG_20110329_144916.jpg
but not without modification
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZJsePvfZNI/AAAAAAAAAX0/Ob5Vt4asz4I/s288/IMG_20110328_131729.jpg
I was going to bring it back at some point after temps seem to stabilize and I think that some cross flow can help prevent ballooning/leaking and allow more flow over the motor.

Results tomorrow :Peace_Sign:

Hey let us know when you smoke another cheap traxxas motor :spy:

GeoVW72

03-30-2011, 03:18 PM

Well, Well ladies and gents seems it really is Traxxas week here on the forums :laugh:

I would like to thank Peter Vieira, aka PeterTRAXXAS aka angry overweight traxxas rep, for finally joining the discussion.
Not sure why you're bringing up something as trivial a run time when that's usually attributed to battery capacity.
Or why he's taken so long to get here, did things finally slow down or did corporate put your head on the line.
As marketing director, why has the rccaraction boat of the year award disappeared from existence? You pumped so much hype into this boat and the award to have it promptly pigeon holed in the back. You proudly display the other awards your models have won in your catalog, but no mention on the 1-page spartan ad.

There's no way the stock jacket is going to work with this motor, also finally had some stuffing tube discoloration.

Ambient: 34*f

Run #1 2x 2s
esc: 55* motor: 87*
max amp: 54 speed: 31mph

Run #2 2x 3s
esc: 82* motor: 130*
amp: 105 speed: 45

Run #3 2x 3s
esc: 85* motor: 159*
amp: 122 speed: 46
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZPmQvQpDbI/AAAAAAAAAa4/haueWPo_HHE/s640/3%3B30%206s%202.jpg

Boat acted real strange at the end of run 3, torque rolled really hard. The old gas boat guru that visits the shop sometimes said that the liner should not rotate in the tube. That's what's causing the chine walking issue and why JPriami has had so many issues with the stock drive line.
Oh well, back to lubing the outside of the liner until it think of an adhesive that will put up with the application.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZNx_I0PBbI/AAAAAAAAAaU/1_UhWRZ75nE/s400/IMG_20110330_125141.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZNyB4L1KAI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/WSjvQbVGeWU/s400/IMG_20110330_125148.jpg
The stock jacket did not leak as badly as it did unmodified, but obviously it is not cooling the motor enough.
Didn't fry yet, but the smell got worse with no discoloration of the balance epoxy.

:Peace_Sign:

shctexas

03-30-2011, 03:33 PM

shctexas

03-30-2011, 03:39 PM

An another not finally got the opportunity to really test my boat. It ran well after extensive modification, with the exception of the stuff tube. Serious extended torque roll and the tube was warmer than I felt it should be. I lubed it before I put it in the water. Next mod, new stringer and wire drive. Peter? Any input?

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 03:41 PM

I would like to thank Peter Vieira, aka PeterTRAXXAS aka angry overweight traxxas rep, for finally joining the discussion.
Not sure why you're bringing up something as trivial a run time when that's usually attributed to battery capacity.
Or why he's taken so long to get here, did things finally slow down or did corporate put your head on the line.
As marketing director, why has the rccaraction boat of the year award disappeared from existence? You pumped so much hype into this boat and the award to have it promptly pigeon holed in the back. You proudly display the other awards your models have won in your catalog, but no mention on the 1-page spartan ad.

Who whoa WHOA Geo, I'll take "overweight" but I'm not angry. And I'm working on my weight.

I mentioned run time because I've seen threads beating up Traxxas for a 20-minute run time, when we make no such claim.

I offer no excuse for taking so long to get here. "Been busy?" Sure, but who cares. You guys should come first.

The only award I'm aware of for Spartan came from RC Driver's readers, and we have it posted here (http://traxxas.com/traxxas/news/Traxxas-Sets-New-Record-18-Awards-Leading-RC-Magazines) (scroll down to the RC Driver part). I can't find an ad with the award in it though, which was a mistake for sure--as you pointed out, we do like to show off the trophies.

Now let me see if I can help here...

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 03:45 PM

I too find Peters presence here odd. Other than mods, Traxxas has not responded publicly to the problems with their boat. He chooses this forum to do it? Geo,I agree on the run-time issue. I recall someone asking where Traxxas stated the boat would do 20 minutes. I don't recall a response. We are all aware of the mountain of valid issues with the boat no to mention the very well publicized claim of 50mph. I am interested to see how he handles the issues "over here". I'd suggest he focus on the Traxxas board. But welcome aboard Peter.

Well, I go where the butt-kickings take me, LOL. I'm on the Traxxas board too, but a customer is a customer, and I want to help. And if i don't have the answer, I want to be able to take your questions to the guys at Traxxas who DO have the answer. And, I can take a few lumps, you guys can lob shots at me. Geo got me with a left hook!

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 03:55 PM

An another note finally got the opportunity to really test my boat. It ran well after extensive modification, with the exception of the stuff tube. Serious extended torque roll and the tube was warmer than I felt it should be. I lubed it before I put it in the water. Next mod, new stringer and wire drive. Peter? Any input?

If you've covered this in a previous post, forgive me. Are you using the teflon liner? If so, with grease or oil (and what kind of grease or oil)? What temperature is "warm" (an estimate, of course). Do you have other boats with similar specs and similar stuffing tubes that have cooler-running tubes? How much cooler?

In the meantime, I'll check with the engineers to see if tube-warming is normal, and if it is, how warm they consider normal to be.

shctexas

03-30-2011, 03:56 PM

Thank you for your response. The issues with the Spartan are well-documented and include esc, motor, rudder, cooling jacket and now stuffing tube failures. Some of these failures have been dramatic, fire! Traxxas has been quietly responsive and frankly dismissive of these problems. Why has Traxxas not issued a recall on these boats?

shctexas

03-30-2011, 04:08 PM

Yes, teflon liner, Grim racer grease, temps hot enough to discolor the tube as shown above.

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 04:18 PM

There are plenty of happy Spartan customers out there, and we're working with anyone who has an issue with their Spartan. I can't speak for every individual interaction Spartan customers may have had with Traxxas via a message board, email, or on the phone, but Traxxas as a company is not dismissive of any problem a customer has with any of our products. If you contact traxxas with a problem and feel you're being dismissed, ask for the supervisor. That's not the Traxxas way.

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 04:19 PM

Thanks for the info, I'll be back!

dag-nabit

03-30-2011, 04:22 PM

OK I don't know who Peter is with respect to his position at Traxxas, all I know is he has popped up here, and on the Traxxas site, and is the first Traxxas representative to make any kind of reasonable attempt to request our input and feedback, and has openly offered to try and provide assistance through regular interaction with us on the forums.

If Peter can accept that we are going to be open, frank, and honest in our opinions, that we will talk openly about Hobby King or any other supplier we feel offers product or services that meet our needs or solve our issues, and, that the censorship on the Traxxas forum has chased some very knowledgeable and resourceful RC enthusiasts off that site, and will unfortunately no longer be available to assist new enthusiasts there.

And

If Peter continues with his professional approach toward working with us to solve the issues that have plagued the Spartan.

Then I for one welcome his participation on both sites.

Some of us are justifiably angry with our purchase of the Spartan, but if we give Peter the opportunity to assist, and if we reciprocate and present our concerns and comments in a civil and professional manner, maybe we can help get this boat on track.

If the Spartan can rise from ashes (pun fully intended) and become a success, it will inspire some amazing offerings from other RTR competitors, which can only benefit us, and the sport.

Kevin

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 04:33 PM

Hey, thanks Kevin. I'm glad to help, and I have no problem with anything in your post.

GeoVW72

03-30-2011, 04:38 PM

shctexas: I don't find peters presence here odd, ose has some of the best meta data on google and the best community. look at his join date, he's been here since the boat was announced.
The other thing you will find is that traxxas's mods are not clearly posted :glare:

:Shame_on_You: Peter, you join the "fray" without reading up on the past bouts (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showpost.php?p=296726&postcount=41), perhaps your not that rep but I think that the way that the info at rcx was handeled wasn't all that great. I couldn't attend myself by my good friend John Thornton (http://www.rccaraction.com/blog/2011/03/25/john-rckcrwlr-thornton-named-team-manager-for-rc4wd-us-and-international-drivers/) was there to ask you guys about the issues.
As far as throwing punches, I just consider myself blatantly honest :biggrin: you can take words on a page any way you want. I'm not sure if I've been completely clear, but I have been 100% willing to help, that's why everything has been documented the best I can here. You should know how to contact me, if not just send me a PM.

dag-nabit: He's the marketing director (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/peter-vieira/16/459/2bb), he's doing what he's paid to do. But if he has the weight to effect change I'm all for it

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 04:52 PM

Brushless55

03-30-2011, 05:16 PM

not sure why it has taken 3+ months to get a responce from Traxxas??
lots of guys on OSE who have much experience have been doing a bang up job helping out spartan owners:thumbup1:
and several posts and thread deleted over at traxxas when some were trying to figure out the issues with this boat.....
almost like these issues were being covered up :glare:

something you (PeterV) posted over at traxxas
When you guys are running on 6S, are you operating at full power 100% of the time, or varying speed? If you're making nothing but full-throttle speed runs, that will contribute to overheating.
not sure what you mean by this?
races are done at WOT for several laps or minutes, if this boat cant hang because of the stock parts overheating then it's not ment to race :huh:

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 05:44 PM

I deleted the post quoted above on the Traxxas site. I was wrong, the Spartan IS designed for sustained 6S running.

dag-nabit

03-30-2011, 06:03 PM

I should have put some smileys in my post (#76), I hope my tone came across as light.

I don't know what happened at RCX, I didn't have the interaction described there. I will be going back into the threads and getting caught up, but I wanted to let you guys know I'm here ASAP. 90% of good service is letting the customer know you exist, and want to give them good service :)

I'm a marketing manager, not the marketing director (he's my boss), but I'm not doing any marketing here. I'm not trying to change an opinion, or sell you something. I'm only trying to help you with your boats by getting you the answers you need, whether the answer is in customer service, or engineering, or in another department.

Thanks GeoVW72 and Peter for clearly identifying your position within the Traxxas organization.

Some friendly advice Peter, if you are willing to take it.

GeoVW72 has taken a measured and well documented approach to analyzing the performance and problems with the STOCK Spartan. There are many others here with valued input as well, but if Traxxas is serious about making this boat a success you would be well advised to familiarize yourself with Geo's posts and data. He would be a valuable ally in assisting with identifying solutions.

Kevin

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 06:18 PM

As posted previously, "I will be going back into the threads and getting caught up." :)

Brushless55

03-30-2011, 06:23 PM

Most Spartan customers are not racing the boat and reserve 6S for high-speed runs, not steady-state WOT running. 6S LiPo represents the peak of the Spartan's power handling capability; most customers operate the boat with the included batteries or a 4S setup. I'm not saying you have to be satisfied with that, I'm just noting the Spartan's mission as conceived by Traxxas may not be the same as your mission for the boat.

I find this very hard to believe that customers are buying this product to only run on Nimh packs to go 25-26mph, or 4s to hit 30mph.. :olleyes:

better products on the market for 4s running that cost less and run faster! :cool2:

everyone who buys this see this like I see on my boxhttp://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww39/filmmaker2009/004-14.jpg
oh and by the way, no one is hitting low 50's in stock trim :sleep:

and also on the box it says this (Ready-to-Race)
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww39/filmmaker2009/003-11.jpg

so those who see this will get the 3s packs and run it WOT because of marketing

to many other RTR products on the market that are much faster and do not over heat when running WOT within there own abilities, and these are pushed beyond the limits they were created!!
like the Aquacraft UL-1, SV27, and the new Motley Crew Cat
Proboat has the FASTeck, Stiletto, and the MG

many of those RTRs can be pushed beyond their designed limits and run like mad, actually every one of them can! :buttrock:
awesome products that don't have these heat issues, motor problems and esc's going up in smoke

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 06:25 PM

I deleted the post you quoted above, before you posted this. I'll also delete a similar post at the Traxxas site, as the Spartan IS designed for sustained 6S operation. Sorry for the misinformation.

Brushless55

03-30-2011, 06:32 PM

I deleted the post you quoted above, before you posted this. I'll also delete a similar post at the Traxxas site, as the Spartan IS designed for sustained 6S operation. Sorry for the misinformation.

picture says "Ready-to-Race"

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 06:33 PM

I recalled writing something about running the boat at WOT, but it was about run time, not overheating. Obviously, run time will be shorter when you run at WOT, but the Spartan is designed for sustained 6S running.

That's not to say anyone with overheating issues is imagining it, I'm just clearing up that no one at Traxxas is going to tell you not to run 6S WOT, race-style. The boat is meant to handle it.

JPriami

03-30-2011, 06:35 PM

If you want to make the Spartan a bullet proof FE boat that will charm the pants off it's owners take my advise. Make the motor a 4 pole & place that strut up higher than where your mounting it now by 1/8" maybe slightly more. This will help stability issues at high speed by keeping more of the V of the hull in the water over 50mph. Do something better with that stuffing tube and flex cable. It's no count after running 6S on it after a while. The stock flex becomes soft and turns into a problem. Stop sending oil to the users in the RTR box to put on the cable. That's not good enough. And replace that strut with a better one or make a rubber seal that hoes between the back of the hull and the end of the strut. The gap that's left there acts like a vaccum in the water and all the oil/grease cones off of it after one run because of it.

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 06:37 PM

Thanks, everything is being duly noted. Much respect for everyone's input.

Brushless55

03-30-2011, 06:39 PM

If you want to make the Spartan a bullet proof FE boat that will charm the pants off it's ownmad take my advise. Make the motor a 4 pole & place that strut up higher than where your mounting it now by 1/8" maybe slightly more. This will help stability issues at high speed by keeping more of the V of the hull in the water over 50mph. Do something better with that stuffing tube and flex cable. It's no count after running 6S on it after a while. The stock flex becomes soft and turns into a problem. Stop sending oil to the users in the RTR box to put on the cable. That's not good enough. And replace that strut with a better one or make a rubber seal that goes between the back of the hull and the end of the strut. The gap that's left there acts like a vaccum in the water and all the oil/grease cones off of it after one run because of it.

good stuff man :thumbup1:

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 06:40 PM

Is it ALWAYS peanut butter jelly time?

JPriami

03-30-2011, 06:44 PM

Is it ALWAYS peanut butter jelly time?
Im sorry I dont understand this comment. please enlighten me

PeterTRAXXAS

03-30-2011, 06:45 PM

Brushless 55's dancing banana (http://peanutbutterjellytime.net/)guy. It will drive you bananas (groan)

Brushless55

03-30-2011, 06:46 PM

:popcorn2:

JPriami

03-30-2011, 06:48 PM

No what drives you bananas is a traxxas spartan. If you owned one and ran it enough on 6S and chased after what marketing pumped it up to be only to be let down one thing after the next you would understand

JPriami

03-30-2011, 07:07 PM

Traxxas you should just sell two versions of these boats like you do with revo 1/16 and vxl stuff.
Sell one to run on NiMh packs near 30mph. Then sell a version that can run 6S lipo and do the 50+ mph its been sold to do and do it with a system that 100% continuous duty cycle proof. With better quality parts.
Or try this idea of mine:
The tray design is great. Just offer upgraded trays for the users that buy the NimH versions and get bored with them. the trays can come with a race motor and esc on them for 6S running. for those that want to bring the excitement back.

shctexas

03-30-2011, 07:30 PM

Well this has been fun!

Brushless55

03-30-2011, 08:00 PM

GeoVW72

03-31-2011, 12:44 AM

Oh the fun's just starting :w00t:, we've just blown the dust off the can of worms.

Ahh they joy of print media, once it's there you can't change it.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZPr72sNBbI/AAAAAAAAAbI/B2UUtJbZPVA/s640/rcca%20titan004.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZPsbM3tcZI/AAAAAAAAAbM/rt5HrpH-4aU/s640/rcca%20titan005.jpg
Third to last question:
Tim had to wait weeks to get a 6s controller :confused1:

This is seeming more and more to me that you guys bought Chinese Boat #1, and we're test group #2

Why did Tim Roberts leave the design team?

What were the delays that caused the boat to be pushed back?

Is there any validity to the rumors of Aeromarine suing over the name?

(ref post #86)
Believe it or not you do seem to be doing marketing here, you are attempting to effect a change in opinion on the boat. Not that that's a bad thing as you have become the only figurehead for effecting change in the company.

The simple answer to your question is engineering.
The production engineering seems to differ largely from the prototype.
We have all seen videos of the prototype boat performing admirably and found a few hints that things were changed along the way:
Alternate trim tab mounting positions, strut mount on the transom doubler different that the holes in the hull.

In the course of my testing I have not reached a definitive conclusion to the chine walking problem;
The small amount of shifting that can be done with the stock strut mounting positon seemed to quiet the issue, but after the results of today I wonder if the liner is causing the flex to load and unload causing a variance in rpm/torque roll. The stock liner and standard .150 teflon liner both fit very loosely in the brass tube. This creates damaging friction is an area that does not normally call for lubrication, that is one of the issues that compounds another issue.

As I have found the motors seem to have a rather large and random manufacturing defect. The large gaps that exist in the stator wrappings seem to be the X factor that causes some users no problem and others major headaches. The gap seems to be creating heat that the stock cooling system cannot carry away.

I am not sure who Nitro Chicken is or his position in the company, but he seems to be alluding that the boats arriving in april will have a big change.

All I/We can do without information is create more useless and damaging speculation.

George :Peace_Sign:

sonic77

03-31-2011, 05:33 AM

I do appreciate it that Peter has joined this board and hopefully we will see some good outcome out of this I just wish there could of been a better decision when I sent my esc in for catching on fire in my basement and nearly burning down my work shop no joke now I keep a fire extinguisher next to my spartan luckily it didn't toast my brand new lipos too. the the throttle kept sticking also i never even made it to the lake this is my result after patiently waiting 6 months for the boat to come off of back order I saw it in person even at the chicago hobby show in October. since my fire I received a new esc motor and reciever from traxxas which are still sitting in sealed factory plastic and I'll be happy to sell it or exchange it with anyone but I'm sure its not going back in my boat I've since upgraded to a more reliable setup a castle creations 1520 seaking 180 esc and a completely new cooling system I cannot afford to take another chance when I hit the lake I mean what would I do if the boat stalled in the middle of the lake and melted how could I explain that to Traxxas? oh heres a couple pieces of burnt plastic can you replace this yea right. I was highly considering getting a vxl summit here soon but I'm having second thoughts after the service I've seen so far it may take a while for me to reconsider the next time I shell out 500.00 bucks again.
sorry I had to get that off my shoulders guys but its how I feel the boat looks cool but it needs to be more reliable if its gonna be out there on the market.
thanks
Justin

ps any word on the ball bearing drive strut release?

shctexas

03-31-2011, 06:02 AM

You are correct Geo, "you do seem to be doing marketing here, you are attempting to effect a change in opinion on the boat", Peter is here for damage control, to salvage the Traxxas reputation. I don't recall him identifying himself on the Traxxas forum site offering a sympathetic ear. This forums reaction to their product has gotten their attention. They have been "outed" for producing a poorly designed product. We have been heard and could no longer be ignored. The roar made them concerned or uncomfortable enough that they had to respond. Were their sales reputation being impacted in the marketplace?

Peter is a marketing manager. We don't need to be told how wonderful their product and company are. We need an engineer, a tech or an R & D guy

shctexas

03-31-2011, 06:19 AM

I stand corrected. Peter made what appears to be his first appearance, regarding the Spartan, on the Traxxas forum yesterday. Peter, you're a little late to the show. The problems identified yesterday were long ago resolved by members.

Brushless55

03-31-2011, 10:21 AM

and don't forget post #91 and the reasons many have bought this boat....
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showpost.php?p=300525&postcount=91

PeterTRAXXAS

03-31-2011, 10:25 AM

Brushless55

03-31-2011, 10:36 AM

I think I've been pretty honest with you guys, I apologized for being late to these forums, and I'm here now to answer the questions that I can, and get you the answers when I can't. The ultimate objective is fully understand your experiences with the Spartan so we may improve it, as we continually improve all of our products. You can email anytime with links to forums you'd like me to respond to.

Brushless 55, it seems unfair to me that you are going to let a quote from me stand when I have explained that I had posted in error. The Spartan is designed for sustained 6S operation.

you changed your mind after I posted what was posted
take a read through it again and again
unfair, I don't think so at all, specially when traxxas members have been banded from your forums for posting the trueth about this boat, and many others have warnings, and many threads and comments removed as well
Mods come it to slap members in the face, is that fair???
you decide

PeterTRAXXAS

03-31-2011, 10:46 AM

I didn't see your post until I had deleted mine--it was up for what, a minute? But that's immaterial. Let's say my post was accurate, and the Spartan was only meant for "bursts" of 6S use...I would certainly not make up a new performance capability that we couldn't meet, and never meant for the boat to have. If I'm going to do that, I may as well say the Spartan goes 100mph, runs for a half-hour on a stick pack, and cures baldness.

The Spartan is designed for sustained 6S operation. Some of you are not experiencing that. Late or otherwise, that's why I'm here. If you want to beat me up, that's fine. But I am trying to be of help here.

Brushless55

03-31-2011, 10:55 AM

you changed your mind after I posted what was posted
take a read through it again and again
unfair, I don't think so at all, specially when traxxas members have been banded from your forums for posting the trueth about this boat, and many others have warnings, and many threads and comments removed as well
Mods come it to slap members in the face, is that fair???
you decide

I didn't see your post until I had deleted mine--it was up for what, a minute? But that's immaterial. Let's say my post was accurate, and the Spartan was only meant for "bursts" of 6S use...I would certainly not make up a new performance capability that we couldn't meet, and never meant for the boat to have. If I'm going to do that, I may as well say the Spartan goes 100mph, runs for a half-hour on a stick pack, and cures baldness.

The Spartan is designed for sustained 6S operation. Some of you are not experiencing that. Late or otherwise, that's why I'm here. If you want to beat me up, that's fine. But I am trying to be of help here.

Not sure if you just read what you want to and delete the reast???
who is beating you up?
I see no one on these forums, remember this is a free forum that we can post what we think is correct without fear of being given warning points or comments deleted, or threads deleted, or the fear of being banned
Steven has a kick ass site here and we all love it at OSE
many members have given advice months ago on this boat that had a claim of 50+ out of the box, that no one I can think of has done so

JPriami

03-31-2011, 11:25 AM

Yeah Im not here to beat up on Peter. But I am a little confused why a Marketing person is here to help. Marketing is what has caused a stink about this boat. It doesn't really live up to its advertised specs. Its a really slim chance that it might do 50mph. But not reliably at all.

And if you really want to improve your product you should follow the lead of some of us beta testers and beef up the electronics. Or at least the motor like I stated earlier. And get some better quality control on those ESC's. But then you will still be left with the inherit problem of the boats instabilities at speeds above 50mph. As I explained in many of my post in the forum and on traxxas forum. The boat has a very steep Vee shape. And trys to balance on the tip of that Vee at speeds above 50mph. Its ok when you are in some water with some chop to it. But when you get on smooth water the problem becomes very apparent. Ive fought this problem with my boat after making it go over 50mph. And I have it just about 90% ( I feel it might need to be moved up a little still) dialed out. But I had to fill stock mounting holes and relocate the stuffing tube and strut higher on the hull to keep more of the Vee in the water to keep it stable. I am even currently doing work on another spartan for someone else. And guess what, early testing is showing the same problem. After you make the boat go over 50mph it becomes unstable. I may end up having to do the same to this boat and relocate the strut.
I have lots of post off all the mods I started on this boat from day one. I did start posting them on traxxas with pics. Also pointed out potential problems early on with that flex drive, supplied oil, and a flex drives that didn’t even have oil on it as an rtr with batteries in it out of the box. Also flex cables that are cut too long leaving too much of a gap between the strut and drive dog. Not to mention rudder inlet holes that are to small, cooling jackets that leak. The graphics on the boats are poorly aligned on a lot of them too. And on my boat and several other the bottom of the hull has imperfections in it where they joined the outer hull with the inner liner and the transom plate inside to the outer hull. These imperfections are actually melting that occurred when they joined the two parts of the hull. Maybe the epoxy mix got hot when bonding and caused this. Still all of those are quality control issiues.

I can not stress enough if you are serious about wanting to improve this boat you need to listen to what I am telling you in my post. I have been on the front lines here with this boat and many people are up here with me with first hand experience on whats been going on. And honestly I feel like some of us should be compensated because we have worked hard on this thing. And spent a lot of our time and energy on your forums helping the people that buy this boat and come there because its not what its supposed to be. When it should have been bullet proof and great like we expect from traxxas and trust in your company.

Don’t even get me started on my revo 3.3 I bought brand new that had the bearings fall out of the the front main bearing on the TRX 3.3 motor with less than ¾ of a gallon run through it. That really bummed me out. Then I bought this boat later only to have all these problems.

For me personally my trust in traxxas as a company I can trust has seriously fallen. And its going to take some real attention to matters and customer appreciation to make me & others feel like your really trying to do right by us.
It just about turns me off to buying RTR stuff anymore. Thats why im just going to stick with building stuff on my own.

Brushless55

03-31-2011, 11:32 AM

Yeah Im not here to beat up on Peter. But I am a little confused why a Marketing person is here to help. Marketing is what has caused a stink about this boat. It doesn't really live up to its advertised specs. Its a really slim chance that it might do 50mph. But not reliably at all.

And if you really want to improve your product you should follow the lead of some of us beta testers and beef up the electronics. Or at least the motor like I stated earlier. And get some better quality control on those ESC's. But then you will still be left with the inherit problem of the boats instabilities at speeds above 50mph. As I explained in many of my post in the forum and on traxxas forum. The boat has a very steep Vee shape. And trys to balance on the tip of that Vee at speeds above 50mph. Its ok when you are in some water with some chop to it. But when you get on smooth water the problem becomes very apparent. Ive fought this problem with my boat after making it go over 50mph. And I have it just about 90% ( I feel it might need to be moved up a little still) dialed out. But I had to fill stock mounting holes and relocate the stuffing tube and strut higher on the hull to keep more of the Vee in the water to keep it stable. I am even currently doing work on another spartan for someone else. And guess what, early testing is showing the same problem. After you make the boat go over 50mph it becomes unstable. I may end up having to do the same to this boat and relocate the strut.
I have lots of post off all the mods I started on this boat from day one. I did start posting them on traxxas with pics. Also pointed out potential problems early on with that flex drive, supplied oil, and a flex drives that didn’t even have oil on it as an rtr with batteries in it out of the box. Also flex cables that are cut too long leaving too much of a gap between the strut and drive dog. Not to mention rudder inlet holes that are to small, cooling jackets that leak. The graphics on the boats are poorly aligned on a lot of them too. And on my boat and several other the bottom of the hull has imperfections in it where they joined the outer hull with the inner liner and the transom plate inside to the outer hull. These imperfections are actually melting that occurred when they joined the two parts of the hull. Maybe the epoxy mix got hot when bonding and caused this. Still all of those are quality control issiues.

I can not stress enough if you are serious about wanting to improve this boat you need to listen to what I am telling you in my post. I have been on the front lines here with this boat and many people are up here with me with first hand experience on whats been going on. And honestly I feel like some of us should be compensated because we have worked hard on this thing. And spent a lot of our time and energy on your forums helping the people that buy this boat and come there because its not what its supposed to be. When it should have been bullet proof and great like we expect from traxxas and trust in your company.

Don’t even get me started on my revo 3.3 I bought brand new that had the bearings fall out of the the front main bearing on the TRX 3.3 motor with less than ¾ of a gallon run through it. That really bummed me out. Then I bought this boat later only to have all these problems.

Good points Justin

and with marketing, they sell no matter the cost of doing to
just replace broken or smoked parts and move on to sell again

it is sad that you Justin and many others have given great input and advice and me included from day one, or actually when the boat was first introduced, but someone did not listen

I think it all started with the name, and boy did those threads and comments get deleted :confused2:

JPriami

03-31-2011, 11:46 AM

Here are some of my threads here on OSE.

My Spartan cooling system v2 (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=21473)
Now lets upgrade some more stuff on the Spartan (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=21652)
6S users please check in here. (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=22503)
Looks like torque roll causing this? (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=22420)

Here is a lengthy one started on traxxas.
Spartan stuff that could help? just a little (http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?8901230-Spartan-stuff-that-could-help-just-a-little)

im sure there are others but thats all I can think of. And countless helpful tips scattered all over in others threads.

Then here is some more of relations with traxxas and forum moderators along with a nice description of what one of your employees has to say about us.
Traxxas are you serious? (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=23314)
See post #44 there too. :eek:

JPriami

03-31-2011, 11:55 AM

Brushless55

03-31-2011, 11:58 AM

RCCA: Is the Titan already at the edges of its performance envelope? Is there room to go faster?
Quoting Tim Roberts in the article.
We set the boat up conservatively. But 50mph is easily achievable, and I have regularly seen it go faster with a more aggressive setup on the stock motor and speed controller. With an aftermarket system on even higher voltages, I would expect Titan to see much higher speeds before the hull becomes a limitation. I’m excited to see how far people go with it. I know I have plans of my own.

just what stock motor and esc was this guy using to reularly see 50+mph? :huh:

I think this boat needs a 4 pole motor, better esc, and better flex shaft
that would make it more user friendly, and possible to see the 50+mph claims

PeterTRAXXAS

03-31-2011, 12:09 PM

Guys, I'm here as a conduit to engineering, customer srvice, whoever you need. I'm in marketing, but I'm not here to spill hype or anything, just supply answers if I have them, or get the answers if I don't. The customer service guys are on the phones, the engineers are busy doing their thing--I'm the guy blocking out time to be on the forums.

PeterTRAXXAS

03-31-2011, 12:12 PM

...and I'm collecting all your notes about what you feel the Spartan needs. Good stuff.

martin

03-31-2011, 01:56 PM

If they can get all the problems resolved & they are very serious problems Not just say a shaft problem that other manufacturers have had where they send a new modified shaft & the promlems are cured. The boat still has potential providing they sort these problems out properly & its not just a band aid solution. What about the boats that are still sat on the shelves in shops that customers are still buying completelly oblivious to these problems who wouldnt be buying if they knew of these problems. Ive spoken to a number of model shops in the UK that have Spartans on their shelves & asked about any problems on this boat & they say they know of none & that its a fantastic boat. I also spoke to the UK Traxxas importer & asked the same question & they knew of no issues & were suprised when i told them of the various problems that were very well known by this point, Thanks.

GeoVW72

04-01-2011, 12:48 AM

Good points JPriami

martin: we're a little past the time frame of the Proboat MG issue (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=17581), but still valid point to be noted on how other manufactures handled an issue.
Agreed that there are many issues, I have worked through many and I am approaching the core. The fix will definitely not be just a band aid.
You bring up a good point on Spartans sitting on the shelves, the 2 are still on the shelf at my local H-town.
Perhaps you counting your chickens before they hatch Peter.

More testing done this evening, had an audience. usually do it in the morning, but people fishin' and I respect their wants.

ambient: 38*f

Run#1 2x 2s
esc: 56* motor: 80*
max amp: 59 speed: 28mph

Run#2 2x 3s
esc: 68* motor: 100*
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZVE5ZE6iZI/AAAAAAAAAbs/PPrNt0t5Kig/s640/3%3B31%206s%201.jpg
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOE1x1-Ytts)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZVFA2kaO-I/AAAAAAAAAbw/coUTLJnUVZ0/s640/3%3B31%206s%202.jpg
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RObctbxEAu4)

Run#3 2x 3s
esc: 86* motor: 123*
amp: 150 speed: 44
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ-nTh9rLbs)

Run#2 was broken into to parts as I tested the though on moving the packs aft. The only time I see moving the packs aft is when you're running stock or 4s, which I do. On 6s it creates violent instability, with the same load/speed.
Run#3 was a little more varied in speed to confirm what we already knew. The 150A spike was what it took to pop the hull out of the water, rest of the peaks are around 114A.

Equipment has lasted this far, hitting the core tomorrow :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

04-01-2011, 01:00 AM

hey Geo, will you try a bigger prop next time on 4s?
I'm wondering how things would go with like a M445 or bigger

Panama Jack

04-01-2011, 04:16 AM

hello Peter. I am really concerned with the spartan boat as I allready burnt my ESC. I cant see this boat runing stock on 6s for any one. See I am in Panama and my boat runs on 90F amient temps. Unlike most of you USA peeps that have frozen lakes and 30f ambient temps.

My first run on the stock NIMH packs my my boat over heated and went into limp mode in 2-3min of running. Then I had to do mayor modifications to the ruder and cooling system, to be able to run it on 6s and even then some runs ended short because it would go into limp mode.

To me the boat was not ready to be launched into the market and as proof you have many members here on the same boat. and I am really upset as this has been one of those purchases that end up in the closet cause it never worked correctly, or just dump more cash into it to make it work.

Is there going to be a recall? is the next shipment of boats going to be difrent? what about the boat that have already been sold, are we going to be able to send our old electronics for the new better ones?

Thanks

§Bodo§

04-01-2011, 09:49 AM

Nice to have you here Peter. We all hoped that Traxxas take care of the customers.
So if you already read at least the threats mentioned by JPriami the main problems are identified and also a solution has been pointed out.
This leads to the question, if we can expect an updated version of the Spartan in the (near) future. Will there be any modification on the boats that will hit the market probably in late april, or even later? If so, what modifications are done/planned?
Regards
Bodo

JPriami

04-01-2011, 10:22 AM

You mean threads not threats right Bodo?

§Bodo§

04-01-2011, 11:50 AM

Of course, you are right. Excuse my english. This language is not my native tongue. But who knows, maybe your threads are threats for Traxxas?

Brushless55

04-01-2011, 02:51 PM

Of course, you are right. Excuse my english. This language is not my native tongue. But who knows, maybe your threads are threats for Traxxas?

we just tell it like it is :biggrin:

GeoVW72

04-02-2011, 01:44 PM

Brushless55: I don't have a M445, but I do have a P220 to try out.
Panama Jack: ambient is also a good point, I consider my testing so far one big * as it is not under "standard" conditions. I suspect that the setup I have will not work in 3 months. I am trying to get the temps as low as possible

Testing was good today, chine walking gone :banana:

ambient: 38*f

Run#1: 2x 2s
esc: 55* motor: 79*
max amp: 49 speed: 28 mph

Run#2: 2x 3s
esc: 69* motor: 96*
amp: 87 speed: 42

Run#3: 2x 3s
esc: 77* motor: 110*
amp: 97 speed: 44

Finally got the inside of the hull pretty dry, thanks to dag-nabit and JPriami for the inspiration:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZZ5cjVqKRI/AAAAAAAAAcM/Ue3Y5AkKnUg/s400/IMG_20110401_111114.jpg
filled the hatch tabs with silicone and ran a bead, to keep the wave that comes over the transom from swamping the boat. But the water on the deck was getting in so:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZdbgQieT3I/AAAAAAAAAcc/FG3xaS6lju0/s400/IMG_20110402_132248.jpg
took about 3' of medium tubing and cut a slit in it, put it on the top deck of the boat to raise their lip even further and today there was only a few drops in the hull not .oz

I'll try the larger prop on 4s and I guess I'll have to enlarge the motor outlet to get more flow :Peace_Sign:

JPriami

04-02-2011, 01:56 PM

Chine walking gone? Were you in a little choppy water? Or glass? My boat stock was good in chop. Sucked on glass.

GeoVW72

04-02-2011, 02:06 PM

Chine walking gone? Were you in a little choppy water? Or glass? My boat stock was good in chop. Sucked on glass.

For the most part gone. little choppy, started a little bit when I ran over my own wake, same as you. but if it did start it, it settled down instead of getting out of control.
:w00t: was going good so maybe it hit the 5-0 and survived.

JPriami

04-02-2011, 02:37 PM

Sweet.
I've got to finish testing the one boat. And got 2 different props to try on mine.

Brushless55

04-02-2011, 04:22 PM

another thing you can do to help keep water out, is use clear electrical tape to tape the hatch down :biggrin:

GeoVW72

04-02-2011, 05:35 PM

another thing you can do to help keep water out, is use clear electrical tape to tape the hatch down :biggrin:

:laugh: Yea, Yea, that is the right way to do it, I guess I'm just lazy.
not sure what you could do with the transom though, unless you do dag-nabit's mod to a t

Brushless55

04-02-2011, 05:46 PM

:laugh: Yea, Yea, that is the right way to do it, I guess I'm just lazy.
not sure what you could do with the transom though, unless you do dag-nabit's mod to a t

I was thinking of using some 1/4" door edge foam.. :huh:

Shaun78

04-02-2011, 08:27 PM

GeoVW72

04-02-2011, 09:06 PM

what setup did u run today to get rid of chine? I tried mine 4.5MM strut and batteries all the way back and tabs all up. little chop, chine walk YES.....Did run fast though but i couldnt hold WOT due to chine

Move the batteries to mid-forward, take a little bit out of the strut angle .5-1mm.
Loosen the strut mounts and shift the strut up and to the right then re-tighten them

Brushless55

04-02-2011, 09:26 PM

Move the batteries to mid-forward, take a little bit out of the strut angle .5-1mm.
Loosen the strut mounts and shift the strut up and to the right then re-tighten them

:iagree:
get the hull a little wet :thumbup1:

shctexas

04-03-2011, 06:05 AM

Brushless, thats what I used, adhesive-backed 1/4 " foam. It comes in a roll from Home Depot. I inserted it in the groove the hatch edge fits in. Also across the back of the deck, immediately in front of the transom but behind the drain hole. Its snug pinning the lid down but to me thats not a bad thing....yet. As an added measure I put a small strip in each of the lid "overhangs" (the ones Dag-Nabit removed). It works well.

Shaun78

04-03-2011, 06:30 AM

With my current setup I moved the batteries midforward a little...same 4.5mm strut which is slightly positive and wobble was gone but speeds were 42 but my packs were almost ready to cutoff. I can run 42-43 with no chine walk but thats not fast enough. 44 and up u get chine. maybe my spartan is maxed out and time to upgrade. I think low 50's with no chine i would be happy. maybe a T180 and Leopard 1450-1600kv is in my near future

Shaun78

04-03-2011, 06:31 AM

dag-nabit

04-03-2011, 08:44 AM

Will I be Ok if i use the traxxas high current connectors with an upgraded setup? I like to keep all my bats the same and I have some 2S that i would like to try when its upgraded but i also use them on my slash so I would like to keep traxxas connectors

The Traxxas connectors are good connectors, you will be fine with them IMO.

I upgraded to EC5 connectors, but only to be standardized between all my boats, not because I thought there would be issues with the Traxxas connectors.

Kevin

Shaun78

04-03-2011, 03:05 PM

Good run today, very windy some a little chop which turned out better. 48.0 MPH on stock setup (must have been down wind though) 4.5MM strut, Rt side tab down a little, batteries in the middle, GPS up front. 48mph

Brushless55

04-03-2011, 03:29 PM

GeoVW72

04-03-2011, 04:22 PM

ambient 48*f

Run#1 2x 2s P225
esc: 73* motor: 96*
Max amp: 95 speed: 39 mph
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXNGAirY41g)

Run#2 2x 3s
esc: 75* motor: 103*
amp: 87 speed: 42
YT vid 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keQRHmt_6jg)
YT vid 2
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94FdjY0wyCE)
Run#3 2x 3s
esc: 75* motor: 107*
amp: 91 speed 42
YT vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGfM_vQ0wew)

So not blazeingly fast today.
I had a P225, prop did work well on 4s though:thumbup:
Maybe they should have had one on it out of the box, but I think that the power required is more that the stock NiMh can provide.
packs were pushed to the rear, so that is the cause of the slight chine walking.
Run#2 rudder needs to be square to run/cool right. Not sure why I get a dry lube squeak on the first 6s run, maybe it's the collet

I have setup tweaking to do, other tweaks are proving themselves quite useful though :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

04-03-2011, 04:46 PM

Thanks George for putting on the bigger prop while running 4s!
so maybe to some running 4s2p with a bigger prop could be a nice way to go with this boat?
10,000mah of runtimes and fair speeds

GeoVW72

04-04-2011, 11:51 PM

NP BL55 happy to take any suggestions, that setup sounds pretty good. The boat didn't have the same get up and howl attitude it has on 6s and it did chew through the 5200mah pack faster than before, but any setup that doesn't burn the thing up is good in my book :thumbup1:

Tore some things apart today :tongue_smilie:
motor really stinks now
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZqK9irMXwI/AAAAAAAAAeE/oH5mUklL69A/s400/IMG_20110404_134926.jpg
rotor epoxy browned a little bit and the back end of the shaft has a shine to it.
So had to bust out a tweak that I think should have been factory:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZqK45BKYTI/AAAAAAAAAd8/Hdymi9RiJHE/s400/IMG_20110404_145144.jpg
I'm hopeful a Thrust bearing (http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-inventory/thrust-bearings/10630/f512stp-5x12x493) can take a good load off the motor. re-lubed everything.
Also found some damage I missed from the stuffing tube heat
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZqK2FJ4T8I/AAAAAAAAAd0/AoYXaUl-SE0/s288/IMG_20110404_134247.jpg
melted the coating off the temp sensor wire.

More data tomorrow:Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

04-05-2011, 12:22 AM

How about trying 5s on this sucker?

Shaun78

04-05-2011, 06:11 AM

what the rotor supposed to look like? Geo IM me an email address and ill send you rotor photo and tell me what you think?

GeoVW72

04-05-2011, 08:04 PM

BL55: sorry, I don't have a good way currently to setup 5s and I'm trying to focus on easy mods; props, cooling, tweaks, motors

testing was difficult today, good chop but the gusting wind made things unnervnig.

ambient: 37*f

Run#1: 2x 2s P225
esc: 65* motor: 96*
max amps: 93 speed: 37mph

Run#2: 2x 3s
esc: 66* motor: 98*
amp: 82 speed: 39

started gusting really bad and a few spills made me call it quits.

Hopefully tomorrow is better:Peace_Sign:

Anyone seen Peter :confused1:

dag-nabit

04-05-2011, 08:14 PM

Brushless55

04-05-2011, 10:34 PM

GeoVW72

04-06-2011, 11:06 PM

BL55: the packs I have are not the same; 2s 5200 40c and 3s 4700 45c. I do have some 1/8 5s packs that I could wire up, but I'm thinking that changing the motor to something more 6s friendly might be better.

Today was no better and of course when you get the power out the wind kicks up and won't go away :cursing:

ambient: 42*f

Run#1 2x 2s
esc: 54* motor: 79*
max amp: 47 speed: 26mph

Run#2 2x 3s
esc: 65* motor: 107*
amp: 96 speed: 44

:sleep:

Tomorrow is another day :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

04-07-2011, 12:31 AM

what are your 5s packs?

GeoVW72

04-07-2011, 09:22 PM

Losi 5s 4000mah 25c, little low on the c and chunky packs.

ambient: 54*

Run#1 2x 2s
esc: 65* motor: 98*
max amp: 54 speed: 27mph

Run#2 2x 3s
esc: 72* motor: 100*
amp: 92 speed: 43

Run# 3 2x 3s
cable failed
amp: 89 speed: 42

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZ4Au-Rqa-I/AAAAAAAAAhQ/2sE_S_mwi9Y/s288/IMG_20110407_122404.jpg
hit a UFO :glare:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZ4Ft65GgNI/AAAAAAAAAh4/a_m4RWimpc4/s288/IMG_20110407_134556.jpg

cable snapped after the stub joint, still chucked in the collet when I pulled it in with the BL RD (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=22628).

It was my own fault, there was a lot of floating debris after the rain/wind storm we had.
But one of the photographers from a local new paper was there with a very nice camera and looking for an interest piece, so I wanted to give a good show :o
asked for the pics, if I get them I will post them
no other damage to strut or hull, the stub and prop are gone.

off to find a drive shaft :Peace_Sign:

JPriami

04-07-2011, 09:32 PM

Jeffs making some I think. Or graves rc has stock ones I think.

Brushless55

04-07-2011, 10:02 PM

I dig that you just keep pluging along with this spartan :thumbup:

GeoVW72

04-16-2011, 01:32 AM

Keep plugging till it works :laugh:

Sorry to be quiet, waiting on parts :closedeyes:

stayed busy though:
cleaned up and sharpened rudder
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZ4B6K-2-VI/AAAAAAAAAhg/rkTKfZ5I5TA/s400/IMG_20110407_133710.jpg
more sensors
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TajCAknYXYI/AAAAAAAAAm0/wLQQ9O7Y1L4/s400/IMG_20110415_180219.jpg

As I suspected;
TrailblazerSS (http://traxxas.com/forums/member.php?89256-TrailblazerSS) = Traxxas employee

Seems I was correct in my assumption that noobs won't clean the grease out of the collet as mr16 (http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?8910467-Second-Run-Failure&p=4763651&viewfull=1#post4763651) showed on the other forum.
Peter, :zip-up: doesn't help and every week the weather gets nicer and people go looking for new toys.

:Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

04-16-2011, 10:17 AM

keep up the good work bro
and that traxxas site is something else:ThumbsDown01:

PeterTRAXXAS

04-16-2011, 10:21 AM

All Traxxas employees identify themselves as such on the Traxxas forums.

I don't have any new Spartan news for you, sorry George (and all). If there's any announcement that Spartan has been revised with X, Y and Z, I'll pass that on.

Brushless55

04-16-2011, 10:25 AM

Keep plugging till it works

Sorry to be quiet, waiting on parts :closedeyes:

stayed busy though:
cleaned up and sharpened rudder
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TZ4B6K-2-VI/AAAAAAAAAhg/rkTKfZ5I5TA/s400/IMG_20110407_133710.jpg
more sensors
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TajCAknYXYI/AAAAAAAAAm0/wLQQ9O7Y1L4/s400/IMG_20110415_180219.jpg

As I suspected;
TrailblazerSS (http://traxxas.com/forums/member.php?89256-TrailblazerSS) = Traxxas employee

Seems I was correct in my assumption that noobs won't clean the grease out of the collet as mr16 (http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?8910467-Second-Run-Failure&p=4763651&viewfull=1#post4763651) showed on the other forum.
Peter, :zip-up: doesn't help and every week the weather gets nicer and people go looking for new toys.

you and a couple here at OSE have given so much for others to go by:thumbup1:
traxxas needs to by back my never ran boat and use the parts for warranty for others:Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

05-04-2011, 12:22 AM

I'm back :banana:

Never really left :bounce:, but now I have parts so back to testing.

100% on about assembly lube in the shaft:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TbXRCv5mHJI/AAAAAAAAAps/5vyHdBzSS98/s400/IMG_20110425_131210.jpg
and it's nasty gunk that never leaves.

got a tube and liner too, liner is excellent, seems they made a rolling change(one of many I'm sure) and went with some better teflon.
real similar to octura, harder that what came with my boat.
Check this out (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-5kgeYEsPSEH_U9M-ryf2DGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink), old one on left, octura=newer on right.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TajCAknYXYI/AAAAAAAAAm0/wLQQ9O7Y1L4/s400/IMG_20110415_180219.jpg

Ambient: 71*f
4s
esc: 79*
motor: 100*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9DL_DQrcoBD-XZoqZjoEujGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/c7nBx4I1DRW91LaHZI0BfjGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NFly9cslozBr17sqSTkiHzGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
6s
esc: 96*
motor:135*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/wbg5SqUkVUyw77SLQ-qUITGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/c5D-uUS2JSRitFw24UCxETGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=direc tlink)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SeHT5309ptwqrzTYrGVUwDGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)

So instead of posting the graphs in I have just linked to them.
So here's the break down:
VAS(Voltage/Amperage/Speed(GPS))
SST(Speed(water)/Speed(GPS)/Temperature(motor))
VR(Voltage/RPM)

I believe that's the best was to present the information clearly,
if anyone has any thoughts on how to present it better I would be happy to hear them :Peace_Sign:

spartanonfire

05-04-2011, 10:54 AM

Yeah...I changed my teflon to an octura an could see a huge difference over stock. They needed to get one of better quality.

GeoVW72

05-05-2011, 02:25 AM

As I said, nasty gunk that never leaves
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/Tbd9QsJyh6I/AAAAAAAAAqg/BVbk5eBrAes/s400/IMG_20110426_112147.jpg

Got a new motor back from warranty that looked good, no large stator gaps, so I threw that in.

Ambient: 73*f
4s
esc: 80*
motor: 105*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/62DnduXMWBDksfel17DOdzGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bXRrAjxOoaETd8dtZ75QkTGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Ny03ZtOixx7O_pqaGtkfjjGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
6s
esc: 104*
motor: 150*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XgVlGV538ZPykFM7RM4YljGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mrbBN5TgbYO9j6JJegKGRDGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/BKg05Jpxebk4wbY9Y-Ie4jGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink)
6s
esc: 100*
motor: 150*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IpJrGetx6_O0UeSjG_prLTGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NH54TUzcuRXcgpIWxGXQ7jGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/dMqDItSHJAVNtlTzlhn3FDGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TcDM6PfQK2I/AAAAAAAAAxw/7kCHUlIOVtg/s640/4%3B27%206s%202%20SST.jpg

This graph from the second 6s run best illustrates the issue we're all dealing with; an inefficient motor.
I have heard of a few that have logged the same information that have termed an "operating temp" of the motor, I believe that they are incorrect.
What you are seeing by the rise in temp is a reflection of the core temp of the motor, which I do not believe is a true 1:1 and the temp may be another 10-30* higher.

Disassembled the motor and found:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TbsHpimi3-I/AAAAAAAAArw/EID5hO2LIGA/s400/IMG_20110427_131741.jpg
The rotor epoxy discolored a bit and the motor had the unmistakable toasted smell.

Off to see what a feiago will do :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

05-05-2011, 09:58 AM

I really like this info you keep posting for us!
Great job..
I wonder how my Medusa 3680 1600kv motor would fair in a spartan?

GeoVW72

05-06-2011, 01:08 AM

Thank You Brushless55 :beerchug:

Got a Feiago 10XL (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GvyarSxxC-Car0Gl_TaoojGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink) installed.

thinking the lower kv might help.

Ambient: 60*f

4s
esc: 71*
motor: 78*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3Nz6zFLOvWh1IuRZ5-OvZjGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Dpp0bm8hmAWbk2mfvnU58zGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/tCPibz8ABdA93IUR6qQQVzGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
6s
esc: 82*
motor: 104*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KZKwwvOi8QF-oBcCDAxzEDGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/l9pR-t_CekpuvUBokJIWijGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=direct link)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nhJQ2sj1mKUIaVPl4vX_ljGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
6s
esc: 92*
motor: 114*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nt0CSJYd7ipZcN-atF8VGzGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/wXVlQ4WA9mIiVP-vKYgXSDGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlink)
VR
(https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LlWiH4HUyHVMEvYorUW08DGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TcDOWM223uI/AAAAAAAAAyQ/WkEUS1EAsPk/s640/4%3B30%204s%20SST.jpg
I bring this SST graph from the 4s run out because from the 5.5-6.5min time frame I ran a right circle and then a left circle at the same relative speed. This illustrates my point that the rudder pickup, with the half-moon mod and enlarged to 3/32, flows poorly and causes the motor temp to increase. Not to say that a simple left turn will overheat the system, but I have seen a few vids where people run the boats on a left arch and that may limit the system's flow.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TcDOcN38szI/AAAAAAAAAyc/9uRF7Hxz9Hg/s640/4%3B30%206s%201%20SST.jpg
Given what I learned from the previous run, I made a point to stop periodically to see if the temp would rise on the log. Seeing that the temps does not immediately rise I would say that the motor is operating efficiently and not trying to fry itself to death.

However, I didn't exactly reach the 5-0 on the box, but that is to be expected going to a lower kv.
Upon disassembly the motor, had a tinge of the toasted smell :closedeyes:
I just don't see any 2 pole pushing this hull to 50 reliably with their esc settings.

Off to find a better motor :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

05-06-2011, 01:34 AM

temps looked better :thumbup1:

GeoVW72

05-06-2011, 10:58 PM

The temps are good, but it doesn't go 50+ :olleyes:
messing with props would just raise the temp and we're back to a motor with no guts.

How about Pro boat's standby motor
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/Tbzs9xghceI/AAAAAAAAAto/GOZQBXl8_ew/s400/IMG_20110430_173825.jpg

Ambient: 72*f

4s
esc: 70*
motor: 95*
VAS (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/q6nOQ4NaGJTOjDrVVLwDNDGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
SST (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/i0q9cfhEU7gT3EoG6DYrezGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)
VR (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jKA5FVnGFjTo_n5jkxrAtjGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=d irectlink)

Tried running 6s, but the esc is limited in it's drive frequency and cut out at half throttle.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Found the stock esc limits and that a 6 pole is too much. gonna need a 4 pole

Also should go with out saying but;
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TbhOxsZ91PI/AAAAAAAAArE/Xw8Ei-eb-kU/s400/IMG_20110427_124840.jpg
Nasty gunk, now with sparkles

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nneVYSYZjrY/TbzsqQoX92I/AAAAAAAAA1E/AcdfurTlHdM/s400/IMG_20110430_152938.jpg
And teflon flakes

Now to think of a motor with more gut, but not too amp hungry :confused2:

Let ya know if I find one, any ideas? :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

05-07-2011, 12:30 AM

Cool idea trying out a PB motor :beerchug:

GeoVW72

05-26-2011, 10:49 PM

Well, found a motor that works OK.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0nNfLA0CIoQ/Tb9kTDUCJDI/AAAAAAAAAvI/2ThFVM5Ht9I/s400/IMG_20110502_174636.jpg

Team Losi 1700kv 1/8 buggy motor (4pole)
I would recommend it, but it seems that losi discontinued them.

The one problem that I did find is the motor is on the limit of the esc's drive frequency. unloaded it will rev out and if the prop goes airborne in a run it will cog out, not that it's a major issue, you just have to let off.

It got the esc temps down into the 90*s on the esc and motor with the stock jacket. max speed I got was 42mph
Which really makes me wonder if we got what we paid the price of admission to see.
Chicken or the Egg argument in my mind, which we will never know the answer to :olleyes:

Makes me wonder if we're approaching the problem from the right angle

Open your mind...:Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

05-27-2011, 04:39 PM

... to all that is possible.

We have all, including myself, moved in the direction of quenching the heat that the stock motor makes and just written it off as inefficient (which to some extent it is).
However, many have moved to more powerful setups and still have issues with torque roll and stuffing tube meltdowns.

Perhaps the stuffing tube/ drive line is the root of the problem;

1. Teflon: the first batch of spartans came with poor plastic liners
old shown on left, new on right
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IFjXMW9OUus/TWxh5QeU4kI/AAAAAAAAA0w/83RJJ0TJnGU/s400/IMG_20110228_134102.jpg
If your liner looks clear as the one on the left, I would contact Traxxas for a replacement(rolling change) or purchase some Octura .150 liner (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=oct-oc150t-24)

2. Brass stuffing tube: This is something we have all overlooked because we expected the norm, unfortunately it is not.
Stock
OD: .254"
ID: .207"
wall thickness: .024"

K&S 1/4" (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=dh-ks-brass-tb&cat=70)
OD: .255"
ID: .222"
wall thickness: .017"

Changed the overall ID of the tube by ~.02"
Why this was done is only something I can speculate at; keep water out, retained the liner.
It would seem to me that this change can create a bind in the drive line.
After making a stuffing tube out of 1/4" K&S I noticed that the presence of teflon flakes was less and they were not "golden brown" as before.
I also made the tube longer to allow accurate temp readings and the standard trick of water line over the shaft
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u25J7KVEP2Q/Tci4JhcRqhI/AAAAAAAAA1k/agsD2rpaGG4/s400/IMG_20110509_142618.jpg
After 30sec the cable had turned the tubing into a 200* piece of goo, which lead me to..

3. Cable: Given that the cable damaged the tubing so quickly, I believe that an incorrect relationship exists between the cable/liner/brass where the cable is too aggressive on the liner which causes the liner to spin excessively in the brass.
This creates excessive drive line heat, 100*f(4s) 130*(6s) 160*(6s failures), which causes a bind of the drive line that leads to the motor heat and failures.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9GaTSjGn9lM/TdmrC8sld6I/AAAAAAAAA4c/8t-1N3FyTas/s400/IMG_20110520_170345.jpg
Top is Octura .150 (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=oct-oc150L-24c), center is traxxas, bottom is pro boat
The strands are obviously thinner than octura and the angle of attack is higher, the traxxas cable also doesn't have the cadmium coating of the pro boat cable and they are asking much more from the cabling than pro boat.
Lubrication doesn't have much to do with it, anyone that has run a spartan with grease knows that most of it ends up on the transom. Some say it's sucked out, but I think it is simply extruded by the cable.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Hjc5CIhVuho/Tc2tSpnBv_I/AAAAAAAAA3I/rCPjfL6t_xM/s400/IMG_20110512_123850.jpg
EZ-Lube mod that I came up with to grease the cable between runs, need less to say it's just succeeded in making a mess and water line again did not work to keep the mess in, just melted down.

The "fluttering" defect:
All these modifications have not prevented the fluttering defect from occurring again (ordered the proper cable from Jeff to put this to rest).
However, no one, including traxxas, as come up with the root of this defect.
All simply write it off as an esc defect because continued use lets the magic smoke out of the esc.
The defect is high speed cogging, caused by the weakened motor from heat cycles that demagnetize the rotor.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JFXp5iugibg/Tc2skP3jwsI/AAAAAAAAA2o/ZomW9IjKiKo/s400/IMG_20110511_130557.jpg
Same rotor as in post#165
The esc loses and finds the poles causing the limited speed and pulsation. Cogging is one of the highest amp draw situations that an esc can go through.
Replace the motor and the problem vanishes, the problem is not the esc!

Thread's getting a little long, if Jeff's cable works out how I think it will, the problems should be put to bead and "The" fix should be easy.

Until then :Peace_Sign:

dag-nabit

05-27-2011, 05:37 PM

We are thinking somewhat along the same line.

I was leaning toward the possibility the flex cable was "augering" the grease out of the stuffing tube, rather than being sucked out by venturi effect.

I was thinking maybe the fit was tight enough between the liner and cable that the cable wind might be acting like a flighting and forcing the grease out the end.

After two runs my flex cable had no visible "excess" of grease left on it. It still had a grease "sheen" on it and left some grease behind on the rag when wiped, but it was really more a film of grease than a coating.

I was running a Jeff Wohlt cable, and had the extra grommet installed between the transom and the strut, which should eliminate or greatly reduce the venturi effect.

With the grommet in place it appears most of the grease squeezes out the vent hole in the strut. there is always a glob of grease around the hole and along that side of the strut.

I was hoping when I made the last couple runs with the liner removed the larger annulus would result in more residual grease left on the cable, but this was not the case. If there was any extra grease left behind, it was too minute an amount to account for.

Conversely, I ran a couple sets of batts in my SV27 and, as per normal, the flex cable had a generous coating of grease remaining after two runs. Emulsified a bit, but still lots of grease clinging to the flex cable.

I know I'm not any closer to figuring it out. I will be interested to hear your results George.

Kevin

GeoVW72

05-28-2011, 01:04 AM

Exactly :w00t:

If it was just being sucked out it wouldn't be all over the right side of the transom.
The glob will always be on the strut, I don't use the grommet method and still have it on mine. You can also make the K&S stuffing tube longer to take up that space.

The first batch of plastic liners did seem tight, I also think that the smaller ID brass tube would not allow the teflon or anything else to expand slightly due to heat, then extrude any remaining runny grease.
The stock tube also seems to be what most call brass-is. It may be a little "soft" and maybe what caused the golden brown teflon flakes.

I would also say, based on what I note from running my MG, with an OSE cable(not an entirely valid direct comparison), the the relatively high drive line temps (vs. 85*f 5s) causes the grease to break down, discolor, and run. After running the MG a few times the blue pro boat grease is still fairly blue without a green tint that I get when I run the spartan.

I am hopeful a whole new drive line will solve the heat issue :Peace_Sign:

mave

05-28-2011, 02:42 AM

Yes, it is the shaft that is pushing the grease out from the back.

A small experiment you can do is put a small section(waste material) of the teflon on the shaft, grip it lightly with a plier, then the shaft in the direction that the prop should turn, you will notice that the teflon will move towards the prop end.
So, in the same note, the grease will move from the motor end to the prop end.

dag-nabit

06-01-2011, 11:33 AM

Based on the the the thoughts/theory discussed above about the drive line augering grease out of the stuffing tube, I have completed the following mod on my driveline, based in part on recommendations by George (GeoVW72).

I drilled out the back strut bushing to 1/4" diameter and approx. 4mm depth using a 1/4" drill bit and drill press.

I then made a new stuffing tube out of 1/4" K&S tubing approx. 8mm longer than the stock stuffing tube. (ballpark length, take your own measurements to be certain)

I lined it with Octura teflon liner.

The stuffing tube now fits into the rear bushing on the strut, Because drilling the bushing out with a 1/4" drill bit and drill press is hardly "precision" milling, the fit is a bit loose. (not an interference fit)

I adjusted the length of the stuffing tube a wee bit by sanding off the end until I got the correct length so the stuffing tube is "bottomed" out on the lip inside the strut bushing. This provides forward support for the strut to help hold it in place and maintain the correct negative/neutral/positive trim.

I have mine set at approx. 1mm positive trim. Minor adjustments can be made either by sliding the component tray forward or backward a mm or so, or by loosing off the stuffing tube clamp at the front of the tray and moving the stuffing tube forward or back a mm or so. (Be sure to leave clearance for the collet.

I also plugged the vent hole in the strut with silicone.

I'm hoping this might help retain grease on the flex shaft.

Hopefully can run it sometime this weekend to see if it works.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/daidavies/RC%20Boats/a5379049.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/daidavies/RC%20Boats/bdd35f3a.jpg

Kevin

GeoVW72

06-01-2011, 03:53 PM

dag-nabit

06-01-2011, 04:52 PM

Nice :thumbup1:

I wasn't thinking of going that far with the stuffing tube, but that should work great and fix any alignment issues. Silicone might not stay put in the smooth aluminum, just be sure it doesn't get ingested into the bushing.

Not sure that you need positive pitch with the torque you're getting out of that motor. I could never really get the strut to hold a positive pitch, but that mod will make it easy to set, just watch out for wear on the stub.

Hey mave, welcome to OSE, where all the real spartan info is.
Anything will be pushed by the cable that way because it acts like a corkscrew, that's how I clean all the gunk out of the cable. Everything should fit loosely enough to spin freely.

hope Jeff wasn't out of stock on cables :unsure:

George :Peace_Sign:

I roughed it up with a needle file first. Still might not hold, but try it and see.

Not sure it will make any difference and hopefully won't cause any problems. I can't see there being much, if any, real pressure created by the flex shaft, but hopefully it will push out past the bushings if there is.

I was trying to run a bit of positive pitch on my strut, but it seemed to keep working it's way back to neutral or negative, no matter how tight the bolt was.

This should keep it in place.

The mod will either work, or it will blow apart, only way to know is to try it.

Kevin

mave

06-02-2011, 01:16 AM

Hi Kevin,

since you have all the tools to do modifications. Can I suggest something?
what about forgetting the radio tray totally, reposition the motor. This will definitely shorten the length of the shaft and thus reduce the chance for the long shaft to wobble and generate excess heat. but of course doing that you will need to figure out the change in CG and etc. :)

Mave

I roughed it up with a needle file first. Still might not hold, but try it and see.

Not sure it will make any difference and hopefully won't cause any problems. I can't see there being much, if any, real pressure created by the flex shaft, but hopefully it will push out past the bushings if there is.

I was trying to run a bit of positive pitch on my strut, but it seemed to keep working it's way back to neutral or negative, no matter how tight the bolt was.

This should keep it in place.

The mod will either work, or it will blow apart, only way to know is to try it.

Kevin

dag-nabit

06-02-2011, 08:12 AM

Hi Kevin,

since you have all the tools to do modifications. Can I suggest something?
what about forgetting the radio tray totally, reposition the motor. This will definitely shorten the length of the shaft and thus reduce the chance for the long shaft to wobble and generate excess heat. but of course doing that you will need to figure out the change in CG and etc. :)

Mave

Hey Mave,

Your suggestion is not without merit, shortening the drive shaft might eliminate some of the issues you have described.

I'm not really motivated to try a modification as extensive as you have suggested. if I'm going to put that much energy into a boat, I'll do a fiberglass build.

Most of the mods I have done on the Spartan have been more or less "bolt on" or have taken probably not much more than an hour or so to do.

I will keep picking away at this for a bit longer, but I'm quickly reaching the point where I'm just going to want to run it and see how long it lasts.

The component tray is actually one of the things I really like about the Spartan, and feel Traxxas did not too bad a job with it. A bit restrictive for doing component mods, but I really like being able to remove it and work on it without the hull restricting access and movement.

Kevin

Brushless55

06-02-2011, 06:38 PM

GeoVW72

06-02-2011, 09:58 PM

BL55: JPriami had good luck with his speedmaster, but that was with wire drive. I don't really see the strut as an issue, as long as it's level and lubed it is fine, the rest of the drive line is the problem.

mave: we're not looking to re-invent the wheel, work with/around what's there. I don't think it is the length of the shaft, just the way it is made.

dag-nabit: not challenging the design, we all know how the stock one ends up :beerchug:

Got bored waiting for parts... dug around the parts bin and got some inspiration.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6N4xeB60_mw/TefMZwZOkxI/AAAAAAAAA50/dP95wHFg39E/s640/IMG_20110602_122551.jpg

I will say it's the first brushed spartan, but with the stock prop it will only just outrun my friends Villain, about 22mph. :lol:
Plenty of grunt left, have to prop it up and see what it'll do.

:Peace_Sign:

dag-nabit

06-02-2011, 10:12 PM

With the mods, I had a reasonable amount of grease residual left on the flex drive after two runs today.

Posted here: http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=25497

Kevin

GeoVW72

06-03-2011, 02:02 PM

Looks great Kevin :thumbup:

Proped the brushed spartan up, got 30mph with a P225.
amp load didn't change :confused2: anyone have any info on E theory.
I'll also say that it's silent too

Brushless55

06-03-2011, 02:34 PM

Looks great Kevin :thumbup:

Proped the brushed spartan up, got 30mph with a P225.
amp load didn't change :confused2: anyone have any info on E theory.
I'll also say that it's silent too

how were the temps bro!

GeoVW72

06-03-2011, 04:02 PM

how were the temps bro!

Temps are good :thumbup:

106*f on the esc fets (standard temps for villain)
~80* on the motor with the jacket (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=gnd-4197)
burns through about 3500mah in 12min on the stock prop and 9min with the P225 (using lipos without a cut off so I stop short, no cells for me anymore)
JB welded the slot in the torque ring, but the jacket leaks a little bit. Stock jacket may work, but I'm thinking it's too wide.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4vFh1WSW6PU/Tek41GMSVDI/AAAAAAAAA6Q/vSPSNFLfsmQ/s640/IMG_20110603_154022.jpg

did some more tweaking; added brush cooling and did a Y setup.
stock drive line has no problem with this setup, rpms are low, motor has no problem either, why isn't this on the shelves! :laugh:

George :Peace_Sign:

dag-nabit

06-03-2011, 06:50 PM

how were the temps bro!

Temps were great Brushless, 20-24*C (70-75F) on motor, esc, and batts. (27*C on caps if I recall correctly)

But I wasn't going hard because of water conditions.

Kevin

Ooops, I see you were asking George.

GeoVW72

06-04-2011, 04:00 PM

Wow Kevin, those temps sound really good. You may have not been on it but you had proped it up, caps do get hot when you run on and off the throttle. poped the ones on a proboat 45A from my friends BJ26 running in too much chop.
I'm anxious to hear how your weekend goes, I really think a real drive line will make the boat run 100% better.
I've even seen, just changing the brass stuffing tube, a 1-3mph increase on 4s.

Still impatiently waiting for Jeff's cable.

official broke 30mph with the brushed spartan.
The Y-ed line and the brushed cooling weren't the best idea, changed them back.
Still think it has more, preped the x448 I have, largest prop I have other than huge gas props.

See how it goes :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

06-05-2011, 12:04 AM

GeoVW72

06-05-2011, 06:20 PM

Well, didn't go so well.

prop is too much for the motor, x448, so the boat is somewhat smelly now. motor cooked a little bit, but everything is ok.

Here's the Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78vC8hV6N2w)

only got 32mph out of it, so diameter is the wrong direction to go with the motor.
Most people run dewalts in their summits as a replacement to the 775, I guess they have more torque and last longer.
Not looking to push the esc that far, may try it at some point.

:Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

06-05-2011, 07:04 PM

GeoVW72

06-10-2011, 10:47 PM

Well, had the first "casualty"
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iQjHZEYxBQs/TfKN5XwNe3I/AAAAAAAAA7U/HKC6KAlJMEg/s400/IMG_20110609_192403.jpg

bored waiting for the cable, added the second trim tabs(a body reamer and close enough works well) and cleaned the hull with Meguiar's PlastX (http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/product_detail.asp?T1=MEG+G12310), which got some good speeds:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hL9QLoLXNP8/TfIwqN6PHVI/AAAAAAAAA7A/sE6gLMqGWV4/s640/6%25253B9%252520Spartan%2525204s.jpg

34mph on 4s

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vl5X0IaxSFg/TfIwlTKHXGI/AAAAAAAAA68/yubCzQDdn48/s640/6%25253B9%252520Spartan%2525206s.jpg

and the 5-0 on 6s

:closedeyes:
brought it in after it hit lvc and checking temps, starts creaking and cracking, pop the straps and the pack splits.

Found that a piece of lexan can keep most of the transom clean:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pLh5weI-dtA/TfKCizSek4I/AAAAAAAAA7M/AwvR8EkiTuY/s400/IMG_20110609_165542.jpg

I don't feel that the extra trim tabs do much for chine walking, they keep it in check to some degree. I think that most of the issue is coming from the drive line.

When does the new one come out Peter :sneaky2:

Brushless55

06-11-2011, 11:51 AM

Hey Geo, what motor and prop were you using to get those numbers??
thanks!!

Doug B

06-11-2011, 09:11 PM

Just read this thread start to finish, awesome work geoWV72! I just bought a Spartan that I am sure is from the first run of them, and this info is exactly what I was hoping to find. I am anxious to hear your results after blueprinting the driveline, both how it affects motor temps, and the chine walk. Anyway, just wanted to thank you for saving me alot of trial and error, I'll be lurking :)

dag-nabit

06-12-2011, 08:28 AM

GeoVW72

06-12-2011, 10:11 PM

Hey Geo, what motor and prop were you using to get those numbers??
thanks!!

Still stock motor and prop.

Motor's got very little life left now, got to 180*f after sitting for 2 min, was 160* when I pulled it out. The whole temp sensor "fail safe" is kind of BS.
Changing the stuffing tube is actually good for 2-3mph on 4s, ~33mph, but cleaning the hull and the tabs got an extra mph out of it.
Getting up to 50 takes a lot of space though, I'm guessing even more with a dirty hull.
With the new cable I could see the 50+ on the box.

Got a Photo (http://opc.mycapture.com/mycapture/enlarge.asp?image=36203693&event=1262574&CategoryID=67635) in the paper again, at least its for the right reasons. Most will be happy to know that I have no decals on the hull, so no one knows what it is. The lake (<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Number+Two+Re servoir&aq=0&sll=40.262761,-80.755005&sspn=3.294603,8.453979&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear =Number+Two+Reservoir&ll=40.256001,-80.1118&spn=0.006436,0.016512&t=h&z=14&output=embe d"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=Number+Two+ Reservoir&aq=0&sll=40.262761,-80.755005&sspn=3.294603,8.453979&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear =Number+Two+Reservoir&ll=40.256001,-80.1118&spn=0.006436,0.016512&t=h&z=14" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>) that pic was taken at is pretty big.

cable's on the way :Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

06-14-2011, 10:16 PM

Got the cable :banana:

If nothing else I'll say I can get consistent numbers

34 on 4s
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gbIyeZc-_Vw/TfgAbkxTHcI/AAAAAAAAA8s/Ol3abNGQnCE/s640/6%25253B14%252520Spartan%2525204s.jpg

50 on 6s
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-52aC6865Bu8/TfgAcdLYUcI/AAAAAAAAA8w/vZaxjtnrxyM/s640/6%25253B14%252520Spartan%2525206s.jpg

But the "Flutter" happened again, motor was already on the way out though.
Some how the tray came loose too and the drive dog was on the strut, so that was a contributing factor.
Cable didn't have much grease on it, but what was there wasn't nasty black, grease on the liner was discolored, but I didn't hear the liner spinning excessively like with the stock cable.
Drive line temps were still hot in my opinion, 140*f, motor toasted at 210*, but the fail safe would not have done anything as the "temp" was 145*
Perhaps motor alignment is an issue, just have to keep at it.

Chine walking is pretty much gone, except later in the run when the drive line heated up , and rather minimal. It will still do it if it hits a wake the wrong way or you get on it too quick. Not sure if the trim tabs are the fix or not, amp draw is higher than before but that may just be the motor. :confused2:

I'll have to try it without them and see what it does, after I get a motor :Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

06-15-2011, 10:26 PM

Well, make a franken motor by taking a Feiago 540XL rotor and putting it in one of the Traxxas cans. Fit OK, not a true 1:1 replacement, but it works.

This isolates the "fluttering" fault 100% to the rotor de-magnetizing, not the esc or anything else. Other failures can be attributed to defective units or continued use with the fluttering/cogging issue which puts an extremely high load on the esc.

Removed all the trim tabs and the boat still ran perfectly other than the usual occurrences that caused chine walking; running over own wake, getting on it too quick.

Speed was lower, but so was amp draw;

4s:
down to 31 from 34mph
amp down to 50 vs. 60A

6s:
down to 47 from 50
amp down to 90 vs. 130A

Batteries in the same position; rear for 4s mid on 6s
Strut and the same level setting.
rotor/motor may have been weaker

I think that the speed may have come from how cleanly the water leaves the boat, squared tabs vs. curved plastic. Boat seemed to ride higher out of the water without the tabs. I may have not adjusted the tabs correctly, try, try again.

Drive line was again excessively hot in m opinion, 150*f. Very little grease on the flex shaft, but what was there wasn't dirty or discolored. I did not lube the exterior of the teflon, which was matted, indicating that it was spinning, but there were no teflon flakes. Interior was fine and the piece of water line over the cable and tube was still there and not a blob of molten goo.

The drive line seems to be the only thing that heats up to change the amp draw, from 90A to 150A at failure (log file didn't save correctly:cursing:)

Seems obvious, the drive line is the root of all this, back to the drawing board :Peace_Sign:

Doug B

06-15-2011, 10:52 PM

Brushless55

06-16-2011, 01:34 AM

Hey Geo, what kv is that XL motor?

dag-nabit

06-16-2011, 08:49 AM

Im not real experienced with boats, and the driveline is very different than anything I am used too (not counting old speedos and tachs.. ) so I have questions..

Are most boats that use a cable drive straight, or do the all have some bend in the stuffing tube?

Are there any similar boats that work well with the 1/4" stuffing tube / .150 cable setup? If so, are there any notable differences in the system?

Why arent boats using a "solid" drive shaft, with a CV coupling to make the bend? seems that would work better and create zero heat and zero loss from friction.

Pretty much all stuffing tubes have some sort of bend in them. You can't mount the motor horizontally in the hull low enough for the stuffing tube to exit straight out the transom.

So the stuffing tube is curved to compensate for the angle the motor is mounted at, and allow the stuffing tube to exit parallel (horizontal) with the bottom of the boat.

Based only on my hands on experience, we have a couple SV27's with similar stuffing tube/drive cable set up. They are into their third season on the water with zero drive line problems.

On the SV's the stuffing tube comes in relatively flat until just before the motor, then it curves upwards. If anything the angle is more acute than the bend in the Spartan stuffing tube, and still no problems.

Kevin

GeoVW72

06-16-2011, 04:54 PM

Doug B: cables are used to get the rotation in line from point A to B same as speedometer cables, were just putting lots of power through them.
Almost all the drive lines I've seen have some bend to them, some seem really extreme.

Pro boat (http://proboatmodels.com/) uses 1/4" brass and .150 cable similar to the Spartan's cable in most of their models without much issue other than the occasional unraveling. However they are only running on 4s with a 1500kv motor (22,000rpm vs 35,500 on 6s with the Spartan)

Most don't use CVs, universals, or gears because of the amount of torque required to turn the prop, Pro boat has a few models with solid drive shafts, but they are more light sport boats.

BL55: it was a 1668kv, but I was using the rotor from it in the stock can. The magnets are 1:1, but the shafts are different.

None the less, it burned up just the same:olleyes:

dag-nabit: Agreed, the Spartan definitely has a large drive line issue

:Peace_Sign:

Things to work on waiting for parts:

Brushed Spartan:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V0F-8ydQDJg/Tfa03KFYF8I/AAAAAAAAA8A/gye1HR1-Yv8/s400/IMG_20110613_192246.jpg
removed the 775 torque ring to aid in cooling, may as well see what it does, chucked the burned one and got a slightly used one off a friend after I built his Monster Summit (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sQ8z0qP-56IWKuwqzoqYnDGovyvwcdLfE64xQwsf8WE?feat=directlin k).

Villain VX(EX=EVX -V, so VXL - the L):
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2CBF1SoADeY/TdmrPA9ULsI/AAAAAAAAA4s/SMy6i4Gdlv8/s400/IMG_20110521_154516.jpg
Still hops on 2s with x447s, lost the hatch, so have to track one down.

GeoVW72

06-20-2011, 10:40 PM

Ran the brushed spartan, but forgot the eagle tree

Seemed faster, but after just 3 min on the stock prop the motor was at ~120*f. Maybe too hot, at least in my book. Jacket didn't leak though.

Spartan 1717: I am hoping to do a "Monster" spartan at some point, when I can get my hands on a white hull.
Executed on 3/3/11 while waiting for stock parts based on the public "will X fit"
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aPsi-VUAK6g/TXAocluTjrI/AAAAAAAAALA/eo5GGoNUhF4/s400/IMG_20110303_174953.jpg
using a rigged ICE 160HV, amp draw on the stock prop is similar to stock components, but the speed was a little less. never went much beyond that.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s0W3xKbTVmo/TXAohdQlOLI/AAAAAAAAALE/Bi4jUEyU1wk/s288/IMG_20110303_175002.jpg
Everything was a pretty tight fit, but the ICE chassis fits perfectly in the tray
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nxV6duzUGB8/TXEvgF9zm-I/AAAAAAAAAL8/Mawv6OO3FOo/s288/IMG_20110304_132814.jpg

I plan on working with it some more after I get the stock components to work as they should.
YT Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1krOvM6BO-k)

My guess on the new Castle Traxxas marine is that it will be like the E-Revo Brushless editon, most likely with a hydra ICE 120 or 180 and 14 series motor as they're coming with 5mm shafts now.

Still working on the drive line issue, anyone wants to see the misalignment I'm talking about, just remove the tray from the boat and move the transom end of the stuffing tube down and watch it flex where it's bolted to the tray.

Until then :Peace_Sign:

mtnbiker94

06-21-2011, 12:39 PM

Brushless55

06-21-2011, 12:45 PM

GeoVW72

06-21-2011, 03:14 PM

I keep hearing about problems with the flex shaft and everything not being aligned properly, and things getting discolored. I just recently got my spartan so I'm fairly new to all this. How do you know when it's time to replace the stuffing tube and flex shaft, because I have an extra of both? So every time I run my spartan I pull out the flex cable, clean it up and lube it. It does have some discoloration, and the grease(aquacraft grimracer grease) comes out a pretty nasty color brown. Is it time to replace everything??

Thanks alot guys

The grease will always come out nasty with the stock cable, just the way it is.
the discoloration usually occurs on the brass of the stuffing tube.
The part you have to watch for wear is the teflon liner in the brass, other than that run it till it brakes or the cable looks damaged, ie unwinding.

As far as alignment:

I am working hard to get it right and feel it should be attached to the tray at another point to take the flex out.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WA_w-MlUbI0/TgDiX_FXUuI/AAAAAAAAA-s/Wk0jrTEXdCQ/s400/IMG_20110621_142318.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-L29VBYLyHP4/TgDibzhTBcI/AAAAAAAAA-w/XgstaACkXP4/s400/IMG_20110621_142339.jpg

The nice thing about K&S tubing is that the next size up fits snugly on the smaller one. 9/32" onto 1/4"
All that is required is that the rear guide be clearanced for the larger tube, which is then epoxied in to the correct alignment and then the bend is created past that.
I would still NOT call this done as the drive line temps still seem hot(125*f) to me.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fUhCrmqlkYk/TgDidu-MgzI/AAAAAAAAA-0/T7hhEMN91BY/s400/IMG_20110621_131208.jpg

I used styrene tube to fill the gap between the strut and transom and there still wasn't a good coating of grease on the shaft after a run. I'm still thinking that it's auguring out some how given that no suction is present.

Still at it :Peace_Sign:

dascoadams

07-01-2011, 07:29 PM

I know its off subject but Are the Spartan factory adj. trim tabs the only ones that fit...without mods

GeoVW72

07-07-2011, 09:59 PM

I know its off subject but Are the Spartan factory adj. trim tabs the only ones that fit...without mods

Nothing is off topic as long as it's spartan related :biggrin:
Some have used Supervee 27 tab adj from Kintec (http://kintecracing.com/Supervee_27_upgrades.html), I don't really feel they're necessary but they make good transom bling.

Hope everyone had a fun, safe 4th, didn't do much spartan related because I knew the parts were on there way.

Deconstructed Here (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?26878-quot-V2-quot-540XL-and-esc-deconstructed&p=337526#post337526)

Took a few steps back to evaluate the how effective the new motor is:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-F767Z94N6rM/ThYZapC7hDI/AAAAAAAABAY/I4IDvHMmEIc/s640/IMG_20110707_141818.jpg
Standard series cooling loop, stock stuffing tube and drive shaft. Stock jacket is useless so I didn't even bother, rest of the cooling mods are intact.

Super aligned drive shaft didn't change much, but I'm still working on a few other ideas.
A few drops of CA/super glue at the end of the brass where the teflon is will keep the liner from spinning though and allow the teflon to be removed relatively easy once it is worn or damaged.

More once it gets wet:Peace_Sign:

dascoadams

07-07-2011, 10:45 PM

I have a set of the sv adj. Trim tabs..and they take quite a bit of modification to fit...and it is mainly for the bling...lol...thanks man

Nothing is off topic as long as it's spartan related :biggrin:
Some have used Supervee 27 tab adj from Kintec (http://kintecracing.com/Supervee_27_upgrades.html), I don't really feel they're necessary but they make good transom bling.

Hope everyone had a fun, safe 4th, didn't do much spartan related because I knew the parts were on there way.

Deconstructed Here (http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?26878-quot-V2-quot-540XL-and-esc-deconstructed&p=337526#post337526)

Took a few steps back to evaluate the how effective the new motor is:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-F767Z94N6rM/ThYZapC7hDI/AAAAAAAABAY/I4IDvHMmEIc/s640/IMG_20110707_141818.jpg
Standard series cooling loop, stock stuffing tube and drive shaft. Stock jacket is useless so I didn't even bother, rest of the cooling mods are intact.

Super aligned drive shaft didn't change much, but I'm still working on a few other ideas.
A few drops of CA/super glue at the end of the brass where the teflon is will keep the liner from spinning though and allow the teflon to be removed relatively easy once it is worn or damaged.

More once it gets wet:Peace_Sign:

Doug B

07-07-2011, 11:33 PM

my .25 on the grease thing- it will absolutely auger the grease, its pretty aggressive about it in my opinion, if you put a thumbnail on the cable and spin it in the direction of normal rotation your nail travels rapidly down the cable.. like a course thread bolt.. if at any point during use it balloons a little bit (high rpm or abrupt decel perhaps?) its going to act like a meat grinder, forcing everything out double speed.

I used a pretty liberal amount of grease and it was nothing but a film after one run, and I have limited the amount of suction as well. Im also turning less rpm, and can see where more Rs would cause a bigger concern.

Im going to do a wire drive, I think that will fix the majority of the driveline concerns. I hope so, anyway.

dag-nabit

07-08-2011, 08:40 AM

I agree that the flex shaft is augering the grease out. The mod I did has helped a lot, but the grease is still being forced out between the stuffing tube and strut joint, and past the strut bushings. Pushing grease past the bushings is not a bad thing. http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?25497-FINALLY-got-to-run-my-Spartan

I'm going to to experiment with a wire drive as well, in addition to some .187 cables. I see Jeff is saying his wire drives should be available for shipping very soon.

Kevin

mave

07-08-2011, 11:31 PM

by the way, isn't the stock flex shaft make of wire? so isn't it wire drive? I'm confuse.

I agree that the flex shaft is augering the grease out. The mod I did has helped a lot, but the grease is still being forced out between the stuffing tube and strut joint, and past the strut bushings. Pushing grease past the bushings is not a bad thing. http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?25497-FINALLY-got-to-run-my-Spartan

I'm going to to experiment with a wire drive as well, in addition to some .187 cables. I see Jeff is saying his wire drives should be available for shipping very soon.

Kevin

GeoVW72

07-08-2011, 11:39 PM

A wire drive may be the way to go, there certinaly is a good distance to make an easy curve :thumbup:

Go the boat wet today, not the best day. Rain, but the lake was calm

Ambient 69*f

4s
Max speed: 34mph
esc: 93*
motor: 95*
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--p4vVe8QaAc/Thep4qlNCdI/AAAAAAAABBI/ErNy7Vc7lQo/s640/7%25253B8%252520New%252520pwr%2525204s.jpg
Amp loading is higher for some reason.

That may have been the reason they didn't use a 4-pole in the first place, would suck too much from the stock nimh.

6s
Max speed: 46
esc: 117*
motor: 112*
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Lb3X-T7atlY/Thep5dbO7jI/AAAAAAAABBM/ujCd9ugJnmc/s640/7%25253B8%252520New%252520pwr%2525206s.jpg
Performs much better on 6s
As far as speed, that is a product on many factors, prop was a little nicked and I'm tired or replacing them:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iJgDVK0UTrY/ThfJko38PSI/AAAAAAAABBg/N7KovYcgjas/s400/IMG_20110708_154709.jpg
Pro boat stainless prop (http://www.proboatmodels.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PRB4019) that they're using on everything now(=P215 (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=hpi-prather-s215)) drive dog is available here (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=oct-oc6dm).
Forgot how nasty the stock cable made the grease, back to Jeff"s to see if there's a difference.

Also not that happy about the temps, they are low, but so was the ambient and it was raining. Still have the outlet so I'll see if a parallel loop can make a difference.

It'll be interesting to see how fast the new components can push it :Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

07-09-2011, 08:25 PM

by the way, isn't the stock flex shaft make of wire? so isn't it wire drive? I'm confuse.

A flex cable is like wire rope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_rope) it is made of multiple strands of wire.
A wire drive is made using a single strand of piano wire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_wire).

I honestly don't know why I bothered with the stock props.

Ambient: 75*f

4s
Max Speed: 38mph :w00t:
Motor: 96*
ESC: 96*
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wuAfywX7XkY/ThjmJWrgXuI/AAAAAAAABB0/mOsG85T2-XU/s800/7%25253B9%2525204s.jpg

Still have some trimming to do. Had the packs an 1" forward from the back, have to move them forward a little more, chine walking may have been the limiting factor.

6s
Max Speed: 50
Motor: 113*
ESC: 109*
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OC0qUaqNdvc/ThjmJ6D7zyI/AAAAAAAABB4/J0gWri5Py0w/s800/7%25253B9%2525206s.jpg

More speed is there, I just have to work on trimming it out. Cooling loop obviously doesn't seem to matter with temps
Jeff's cable is hands down better than the stock one, but the drive line temps didn't change much. The liner had turned slightly with the stock cable, but stayed with Jeff's without re-gluing it. However, that's been with the stock stuffing tube, have to see what my re-design will do.
The motor did solve a large part of the issues, but I would not call it solid yet. The drive line issues will still occur.
It is easier to work on them without the motor burning up though:Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

07-14-2011, 02:15 AM

Still fighting with trimming, gain some stability-loose some speed.

34-36mph on 4s
47-49 on 6s
temps still around 110*f on everything, ESC temp seems to mirror the motor temp

Trying my new drive line, temps go down, but doesn't work with the stock cable.
Which raises the question, why is the stock cable so "bad"?
So I took one apart :tongue:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zFcdXPW6oLs/Th4LfZpqNlI/AAAAAAAABDA/WwVNt3DmcQU/s640/IMG_20110711_181040.jpg

Top is Octura and the bottom is the first traxxas cable I had that snapped when it hit something.
The construction is the same, 4 cores with each one wrapped the other direction. But the traxxas one is constructed using smaller wire and also wire of less quality, as evident by the black tarnish and corrosion on it. The octura cable is nickle coated I believe and the wire is also .10mm larger in diameter.

The difference is performance is large, as anyone who as tried the two will tell you. The stock cable turns blue proboat grease brown, then augers it out of the stuffing tube, then proceeds to start to spin the liner in the brass(breaking it free from the CA bond with my new drive line). Which is the cause of torque roll and some part of the chine waling issue.
I'm not really sure what traxxas was thinking or what the cost difference was, but the stock cable is not up to the task it is put to, even proboat at least nickel coats their cables.

The motor was half the issue, what it's spinning is the other :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

07-14-2011, 09:30 AM

good stuff bro!

Just ADD Water

07-19-2011, 02:32 PM

I have new version of the spartan... ive upgraded the water jacket to a large aluminum one .. all the cooling lines have been replace with larger lines .. i drilled out the pick ups and outlet..temps have been very good .in my defense i never run it wide open all the time .. i make a few passes with small burst of speed no longer than 4 sec maybe 5..mainly due to my pond size ... but i am seeing some issues with the flex shaft and tubbing (pushing out grease, and liner tube spinning ) i keep re greasing the shaft after every run to try to prevent any failure ..... could someone please tell me where to get a wire drive for the spartan... or any other issues that might arise ... thanx David

Just ADD Water

07-19-2011, 02:42 PM

do you have more pics on the villian project.. i was thinking of doing the same but with two esc's ,, but i like the idea you have with the VXL6 ....how it holding up to two motors ... thanx David

dag-nabit

07-19-2011, 03:43 PM

Wire drives as well as .150 and .187 cable drives are available here: http://www.rcraceboat.com/

Kevin

Savage Skidoo

07-19-2011, 06:48 PM

Hey Kevin , are you running a thrust bering in your set up . cause just placed order with OSE , if so i need to order one

Just ADD Water

07-19-2011, 08:18 PM

hey kevin which one would you choose . 150 or .187.... and thanx for the speedy reply ... David

dag-nabit

07-19-2011, 10:15 PM

Hey Kevin , are you running a thrust bering in your set up . cause just placed order with OSE , if so i need to order one

No I'm not. I have some thrust bearings in my kit, but have never bothered installing them. On my Spartan I'm running an upgraded collet, and it is larger than stock, so I don't know if I can even fit a thrust bearing in what little space is left.

Kevin

dag-nabit

07-19-2011, 10:20 PM

hey kevin which one would you choose . 150 or .187.... and thanx for the speedy reply ... David

I have not been having the best success with the .150 cables (same size as stock) but my upgraded cables from Jeff just arrived yesterday, and since I haven't tried running the .187 cable yet it is tough for me to really make a recommendation.

However, those that have run the .187 cables seem happy with the performance.

You need to get a bigger collet to fit the cable, and you have to run without the teflon liner in the stuffing tube.

I also have a couple wire drives on order from Jeff, but suspect they are still a couple weeks away. (international shipping delays)

Kevin

bdp1174

07-19-2011, 11:29 PM

dag-nabit

07-19-2011, 11:47 PM

I was thinking of trying a .150 cable from Jeff also.Are they a drop in or do I need to file the end for the drive dog or anything else?
Also what else will I need to buy to get it put in my Spartan? ( prop nut,drive dog etc.)
Still using the stock setup right now.
Thanks again.

Brandon

The .150 cable is a direct replacement for fit. You will need to file a flat for the drive dog set screw, but it is easy to do.

Jeff's shafts use a 10/32 nut (if I remember correctly) and the Spartan is 4mm nut I believe.

Kevin

Jeff Wohlt

07-20-2011, 12:12 AM

Kevin, your wiredrives shipped today. I will get your a tracking number.

dag-nabit

07-20-2011, 08:34 AM

Kevin, your wiredrives shipped today. I will get your a tracking number.

Thanks Jeff, looking forward to giving them a try. I should have a chance to run the .187 cables a bit while I wait on shipping, so that will give me a chance to evaluate which drive system I prefer over the next several weeks.

Kevin

GeoVW72

07-20-2011, 01:37 PM

If you are using Jeff's cables you do need a new nut, 10-32 (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ose-8135). .150 is a drop in fit, .187 you need a new coupler from 5mm to .187 (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=oct-ocfhe5mm187), and I would replace the stock brass. I'm not a big fan of what they used and someone on the traxxas forum had an issue (http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?8920274-Vibration-with-.187-flex-cable-without-stuffing-inside-the-tube), K&S (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=dh-ks-brass-tb&cat=70) is better stuff.

I've had good luck with Jeff's .150 cable. The big problem that is see the multiple points of alignment or misalignment that can take place over the drive line.

I actually haven't used a thrust bearing with the new motor and it doesn't seem to care as much as the old motor, you have plenty of space though, they're about the thickness of the plastic.

Just ADD Water: haven't done much with the villain, porpoised a lot and I lost the hatch. quite a few people have done twin vxls with the vxl-3s, but there's not any cooling for the escs. the vxl-6s hasn't had an issue with the motors, smaller props would be better though.

It's been pretty warm here, lake almost feels like bath water, 75-90*f has been the air temp.
Motor and esc temps still stay around 100-130*f so the new power system works pretty well, at least with the cooling mods that I've made, don't have the parts to go back to stock.

Still working all the kinks out of the drive line :Peace_Sign:

GeoVW72

07-22-2011, 05:12 PM

Or close enough

got new 3s cells to replace the old ones

4s - 36mph
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Wq1heAV__og/TinNqzVXUsI/AAAAAAAABGU/STEyf4PWECU/s800/7%25253B22%2525204s.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-O1kEzHAwqOs/TinNqV3X-tI/AAAAAAAABGQ/CN6JGImmmds/s800/7%25253B22%2525204s%252520VRT.jpg

6s - 54.3mph
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UK1ckAoG_HY/TinNsc8QuJI/AAAAAAAABGc/9NhSLuPCgRc/s800/7%25253B22%2525206s.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VWHZE5C5Vwk/TinNrp_MHNI/AAAAAAAABGY/iU6q1iSRbTk/s800/7%25253B22%2525206s%252520VRT.jpg

Temps are good, looks like a winner.... after you replace the whole drive line :glare:
Also, no trim tabs, no torque roll, no chine walking unless it ran over it's own wake. Prop was a proboat = to a P215 which is close enough to stock.

Trim tabs do add stability, but I wonder if traxxas is using them for more than they should. Page 28 of the manual (http://traxxas.com/sites/default/files/5708_manual_0.pdf) shows the tabs negative, but all I ever run is neutral or only slightly negative. Most of the knowledge I've gained on here says to play with CG(center of gravity) before trying to trim the hull. That's what I have done and it works for the way I run the boat.

Have to work on a write up for the drive line :Peace_Sign:

dag-nabit

07-22-2011, 06:10 PM

George,

As usual, a very informative post.

Is that with the new components, i.e. the 1800kv motor.

Kevin

GeoVW72

07-22-2011, 06:44 PM

Thanks Kevin,

It was the V2 components; 1800kv motor without the Castle stamp, "new" traxxas esc.

Snafujg

07-26-2011, 10:09 AM

Geo, I'm very interested to hear about this drive line that you've come up with. I had my Spartan out last weekend and I was able to get rid of most of the torque roll I was experiencing by moving the strut up a little bit. Still have chine walking, though. Even with 2 sets of trim tabs she walks when I get to about 3/4 throttle. Because of that, I can't hold WOT for more than a second or two. That's with the bottom 2 trim tabs pretty negative. Maybe I will try moving them back to Neutral. The outer trim tabs have always been at neutral. I will also be switching out my CC1515/Seaking180 combo for the new traxxas/castle combo that I received. Not sure how much that will help. It's basically just a lower KV motor than I was running.

Jeff Wohlt

07-26-2011, 12:33 PM

Does the prop shaft go all the way to the hull On these? Can a shorter shaft work? I mean the 5mm part of it.

GeoVW72

07-26-2011, 11:47 PM

Snafujg: still working at it, some of the issues take time to arise. I want to make sure that it can work without issue.
I would reset the lower trim tabs and work with the outer ones a little bit. The combo you are running may be too much rpm for the hull to handle. I've been able to get it to torque roll getting on it too fast, you need to ease through the throttle smoothly to get the hull on a level plane.

Jeff: not sure how much you could take off, this is how it looks mounted;
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VVj8KX2W3fA/Ti97X05kk1I/AAAAAAAABHI/Av_2cPtNvD0/s640/IMG_20110726_140707.jpg
The stub does not enter the transom, but I'm not sure where you could subtract any.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZWymhJdinZg/Ti4Sci_PUxI/AAAAAAAABHE/emwSbMdzle8/s640/IMG_20110723_171038.jpg

Went back to a series loop, temps stayed the same if not cooler
Put the tabs back on neutral, they do help with high speed stability and in chop.

4s - 36mph
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Mc7aqzaDSYY/Ti98-bsC88I/AAAAAAAABHY/pqUTZTORzNY/s800/7%25253B26%2525204s.jpg

6s - 52
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2TDG4tWZfmw/Ti98_Iu-bvI/AAAAAAAABHc/V8pc4BeX090/s800/7%25253B26%2525206s.jpg

So lost a small amount on the top end, but consistently above 50. Boat was stable with the chop on the lake today, moved the packs an 1" to keep it on the water, there may have been a few more mph left but not the room or the risk. The thing you have to keep in mind is that to get to full speed you need a lot of room to wind it out.

Not sure why everyone has to have the Castle stuff, you're not going to get that much more out of the boat with some programming. The esc was designed to run within a certain demand that I do not believe is that much greater than the traxxas esc.
The only complaint I will make is the low lvc cut off that could damage packs.

Geo:Peace_Sign:

Snafujg

07-27-2011, 11:10 AM

Geo, I tend to agree with you on the CC1515 motor. I think it my just be too many rpms for the hull, expecially on 6S where it's pulling 49,280 RPMS. I know there are a couple guys running that motor (Rinksi and Wilsta) and Rinksi hasn't had issues but Wilsta blew up his ESC. I'm hoping that the new Castle/Traxxas will be better suited to the hull and will eliminate some of the issues I'm having. I will go back to neutral on all the trim tabs and go from there. My issue is that I only get to run the boat once a week. I go to my lake cottage on the weekends and get to run on Friday night. Saturday is usually way to choppy due to all the boat traffic on the lake. So I run it once, then come here for more suggestions! Thanks to all you guys for all your continued help. I'm determined to get this baby running fast and stable, even if it only happens once this summer!

Brushless55

07-27-2011, 12:05 PM

Geo, I love that you keep posting your runs!
good stuff man..

Brushless55

07-27-2011, 12:09 PM

Thanks Kevin,

It was the V2 components; 1800kv motor without the Castle stamp, "new" traxxas esc.

if it does not say Castle chances are its not a true Castle motor...

GeoVW72

07-27-2011, 11:27 PM

BL55: I think the first order was a rush, no time for engraving the end bell, the other ones are a carbon copy. :banana: I'm just getting started, system runs pretty well, maybe I can get 60 out of it with the right prop.

Jeff: not sure how many collets you make or know the other specs of, but the stock wrenches are 10mm and the collets placement in the hull doesn't make it conducive to working on it with anything other than a fixed open end wrench.

Not sure how people are having issues with the stock one, I've been using the same one this whole time.
You don't have to crank on it like he-man;
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NIXX8QbmX54/TiWbq5CCekI/AAAAAAAABEI/7K5yLiv__xk/s400/IMG_20110718_131511.jpg
A finger on each wrench is all that you need.

Tweaked the outer tabs close to stock settings.

4s - 33mph
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Xq5pqnoasL8/TjC4C0_DzWI/AAAAAAAABH0/v23cOr_66nw/s800/7%25253B27%2525204s.jpg

6s - 53
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-p2xhLfYyTzE/TjC4C_Y0cXI/AAAAAAAABH4/7efHmJXwCUY/s800/7%25253B27%2525206s.jpg

Boat was very stable, would still chine walk over it's own wake, but torque roll was pretty much gone. Not sure why the amp draw dropped on 4s, hull still seemed like it has the same attitude :confused2:
Put another set of adjusters on order for the inner ones, maybe tweaking them a little bit can help.
Time to start playing with props, given the news that the Castle system poped on a x642 I'm going to start with a x640 and go from there.

Geo:Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

07-28-2011, 01:04 AM

BL55: I think the first order was a rush, no time for engraving the end bell, the other ones are a carbon copy. :banana: I'm just getting started, system runs pretty well, maybe I can get 60 out of it with the right prop.
Tweaked the outer tabs close to stock settings.

Geo:Peace_Sign:

if they were true Castle they would have the Castle wires cuz they put them on their products
I really think someone else is building them, just like the Leopards

dag-nabit

07-28-2011, 08:49 AM

Brushless55

07-28-2011, 12:36 PM

if they were true Castle they would have the Castle wires cuz they put them on their products
I really think someone else is building them, just like the Leopards

Not according to this: http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30208&page=2

Patrick del Castillo of Castle states the motors are built by Castle Holdings LLC in China, The ESC is built by Castle in the in USA.
The ESC is a new design, the motor is based on an existing platform.
Kevin

Like I said along with Castle... if the motors say Castle on them they are a true Castle motor
if they do not they are not made by Castle
Leopards are a Castle design just like these new spartan motors
so what I said is correct acording to Castle! :thumbup1:

GeoVW72

07-28-2011, 01:44 PM

Well, I already had it apart, of course :tongue_smilie: and the rotor looks decidedly castle after seeing tacons and such. If you have a Leopard I would love to see it apart.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RGJ6nsgli5g/ThYYs6d8w-I/AAAAAAAABAE/CCehEvXFWHI/s640/IMG_20110707_123528.jpg

I can see why a x642 could blow the system, this was a x640 and the amps are pretty close to what the controller was at when the rotors let go on the fieagos.

4s - 35mph
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-81a5jrY8uNY/TjGY1tgshQI/AAAAAAAABIk/2wcPxYpSveI/s800/7%25253B28%2525204s.jpg

6s - 58
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-g6pi3ycmwaY/TjGY1UMfF1I/AAAAAAAABIg/EtZ5KCMNfDQ/s800/7%25253B28%2525206s.jpg

Yes it moves out and it is fast, but the spikes to 150A are pretty close to the controller's limit. I've seen them go to ~160A when the rotor went and I imagine that the controller is not that far behind.
I would not recommend a x640 for a standard running prop, IF you want it to move out up and down the lake a few times and have the packs to put out +150A and no other issues then sure.

On to a x440 :Peace_Sign:

Brushless55

07-28-2011, 03:34 PM

mtnbiker94

07-29-2011, 01:06 AM

So I'm getting the new castle replacement from traxxas as I just fried my motor, what prop would you recommend for just regular usage? Not balls to the walls speed but something that will give it a little more with out doing any harm to the new motor and esc!

Thanks

Brushless55

07-29-2011, 01:34 AM

dmwilson09

07-29-2011, 09:05 AM

the new Traxxas Tecon/Leopard non-Castle motor should work great using a X440/3 :thumbup1:

The New Motors from Traxxas are Castle Motors (They have a Castle logo on them)..... They are a Castle 1420 - 1800KV motor.

Check out this website
http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/show...t=30208&page=2

Brushless55

07-29-2011, 09:42 AM

Does anyone have pictures of this new motor, I would love to see the Castle logo on it...
This would be great if they are built by Castle/China !

dmwilson09

07-29-2011, 09:45 AM

Does anyone have pictures of this new motor, I would love to see the Castle logo on it...
This would be great if they are built by Castle/China !

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?27131-New-Caste-Creations-Marine-ESC-from-Traxxas

Brushless55

07-29-2011, 11:27 AM

thank you Wilson! :thumbup1:

GeoVW72

07-30-2011, 08:17 PM

BL55: I guess you've been out of the loop a little bit, Patric from Castle confirmed that they did make the motor and the new escs on RC Monster (http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30208)

mtnbiker94: so far a P215 (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=hpi-prather-s215) or a pro boat 1.6"x2.5" stainless (http://www.proboatmodels.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PRB4019) are excellent. Basically equal to the stock prop but in metal. The pro boat is a little easier to find and work with, softer alloy/cleaner cast, I've found them to work well without straining any part of the stock system.

I was a little quick with my last post, the liner had also broken the CA joint on the tube and started spinning. Maybe we are overworking .150 cable.

x440 isn't the best prop

4s - 34mph
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OjNTw3uy0TQ/TjSQoJHvf_I/AAAAAAAABI8/rt5A5x4sbhE/s800/7%25253B29%2525204s.jpg

6s - 48
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kMI2kvnAzM8/TjSQqHmX34I/AAAAAAAABJA/7IDncw-wUwg/s800/7%25253B29%2525206s.jpg

The prop gave the boat an odd running attitude, I guess that the x4 series tend to be have a slight lift to them. So a lot of the hull was wet and on 6s it really wanted to chine walk.
Maybe an x638 or a modified x640/2 could work, but so far the p215 is the most reliable prop.

Geo:Peace_Sign: