Are Castle Creations and other ESC makers losing out?

[LuckyDuc]

Are Castle Creations and other ESC makers losing out?

The P-limited “spec” classes have gained quite a large following over the last 3 years and they are the best attended classes at national FE events. I suspect that these classes are the favorites at many local clubs too.

I have seen Castle Creations, ProBoat, Turnigy, Seaking, Etti, Aquacraft, Swordfish, YGE, etc represented at these national FE events in the P-limited classes, but is seems that they are not being represented in some local clubs.

Should Castle and other ESC manufacturers be concerned about this and start lobbying for the “local” sponsorship/ support in the P-limited classes?

[teach]

Sir they are well represented in Pueblo, Co. I would say 75% of our club use castles.

[Darin Jordan]

Castle is here in Washington, as well. In fact, Brian Buaas works with Castle and lots of us run their stuff.

[LuckyDuc]

Castle as well as the others listed above are represented in our P-limited classes here in WI and IL too.

I have noticed that some clubs are restricting the choice at the local level, which is fine... It's their club/rules, but I was curious as to how wide spread this practice is.

[Darin Jordan]

Those clubs that are restricting the choice and limiting thier "spec" classes to factory ESCs are those that CLEARLY understand that the ESC can make a HUGE difference. Unfortunately (depending on where you sit), most do not see this, or don't care, and they are only thinking about what they have in their spares box, as opposed to what would be the most balanced for racing.

Many of us suggested, when this spec idea first started, that we restrict ESC choice to the factory ESCs, but we were overruled. Not worth the battle. I will use whatever ESC I can afford that is legal, so it's not as big a deal to me. It does, however, put one more factor into getting the best out of the system, and stresses the systems harder by leaving them open.

Again, not worth battling over for me. I just want to race, and will run whatever rules exist that make sense to me. If they don't make sense, or don't interest me, or I can't afford to be competitive, I won't race the class...

[sailr]

Totally agree Darin,

I use the stock ESC's in my spec boats. While our club doesn't restrict using other controllers, I still think the ESC's should be restricted in the spirit of the classe(s).

It's like saying in an IROC camaro that the engine has to be stock but you can use any carb/injection or nitrous system you want to!

[LuckyDuc]

Many of us suggested, when this spec idea first started, that we restrict ESC choice to the factory ESCs, but we were overruled.

Hence my query. Many have been using a wide variety of ESCs in the P-limited classes over the last three years, and they are currently allowed at national FE race events.

Does this move by some local clubs to exclude Castle, Turnigy, Etti, etc in the P-limited class mean that there is going to be a national movement to do the same? Those that have been racing in the P-limited classes for the last 3 years and using their ESC of choice would be forced to buy new controllers for all of their P-limited boats. Could such a move hinder the growth and attendance of P-limited classes at a national level?

It would definitely concern me as a manufacturer like Castle seeing as their products would be eliminated from use in the fastest growing electric racing class.

[sailr]

I don't foresee any movement to change anything. The clubs restricting the ESC's are in the vast minority anyway.

[DPeterson]

Darrin

CLEARLY understand that the ESC can make a HUGE difference.

Many of us suggested, when this spec idea first started, that we restrict ESC choice to the factory ESCs,

Hi Darrin, If I may add;
The style of hull, hull set up, spec motor selected, prop choice, hardware, driver experience and practice also makes a HUGE difference. The ESC is just one component of many.

And actually it was just a few that suggested factory ESC's as there is clearly a majority that is running open ESC's.

I really hope we don't have to regurgitate this issue. The sport has evolved into spec racing due to the evolution of the technology and the rules we implemented to control it. The unfortunite collateral damage was the reduction or elimination of the quality classes. Specing the ESC goes against the grain and lowers the quality level yet again. IMO it is the difference between an RC race boat and a toy boat.

Doug

[Fluid]

Should Castle and other ESC manufacturers be concerned about this and start lobbying for the “local” sponsorship/ support in the P-limited classes?

Why should they bother? The market is so small that any real effort could use up all the margin they'd make in spec racing sales. We are just lucky that we can use the same basic equipment that the airplane guys do.

FWIW I run a Castle ICE100 in my FE-30 with a PiStix. Works great and lets me know that many common spec setups can pull up to 80-90 amps. How long will many 45 and 60 amp controllers last at this amp draw? Some do, some do not. There are advantages to using non-stock controllers besides speed.


.

[Chilli]

Those clubs that are restricting the choice and limiting thier "spec" classes to factory ESCs are those that CLEARLY understand that the ESC can make a HUGE difference. Unfortunately (depending on where you sit), most do not see this, or don't care, and they are only thinking about what they have in their spares box, as opposed to what would be the most balanced for racing.

Many of us suggested, when this spec idea first started, that we restrict ESC choice to the factory ESCs, but we were overruled. Not worth the battle. I will use whatever ESC I can afford that is legal, so it's not as big a deal to me. It does, however, put one more factor into getting the best out of the system, and stresses the systems harder by leaving them open.

Again, not worth battling over for me. I just want to race, and will run whatever rules exist that make sense to me. If they don't make sense, or don't interest me, or I can't afford to be competitive, I won't race the class...

Very well stated!!!:thumbup1:

[LuckyDuc]

I don't foresee any movement to change anything. The clubs restricting the ESC's are in the vast minority anyway.

Really!?!

Maybe you should read this... LINK (http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=40172&view=findpost&p=401408)

[Darin Jordan]

Really!?!

Maybe you should read this... LINK (http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=40172&view=findpost&p=401408)

Dude... take a deep breath... you just pointed out one of the minority clubs... they've had the restriction from the beginning...

Our club, and many, many others, have it open... NAMBA, as far as I know, is going to have it open as well.

If they are being restricted, it's a local deal.

[Flying Scotsman]

Rules, Rules....frankly, as far as an ESC is concerned I do not see the issue, use whatever brand you wish.

Douggie

[LuckyDuc]

Amen.

[bigwaveohs]

I don't foresee any movement to change anything. The clubs restricting the ESC's are in the vast minority anyway.

There is a move nationally to limit ESC's in the P-spec (limited) classes to a few "factory" ESC's (e.g. Aquacraft UL-1 & etc.)...

[Darin Jordan]

There is a move nationally to limit ESC's in the P-spec (limited) classes to a few "factory" ESC's (e.g. Aquacraft UL-1 & etc.)...

Who exactly is "moving" to limit ESCs nationally??? No one that I know or have heard from... :popcorn2:

[7500RPM]

Rules, Rules....frankly, as far as an ESC is concerned I do not see the issue, use whatever brand you wish.

Douggie



Programmable timing is an issue and what ever else they can put into a controller, just look at Tekin, anyway you are trying to keep a class that people just starting in this hobby can race in without spending a lot of money in to compete in. If you want non Spec controllers then start a different class that the others can race in....I have seen this happen too many times with car clubs that start out with good intentions, that is why I stopped going carpet racing, It was not injoyable any more due to changing of the rules.

[Doug Smock]

Who exactly is "moving" to limit ESCs nationally??? No one that I know or have heard from... :popcorn2:

Some yahoo down south and a group of co conspirators that were asked to step up to the plate and put something together.
Unfortunately their goal is to reduce the number of racers that will participate at a national event and eventually run the IMPBA into the ground.:ohmy:
The sky is falling!!!:smile:

Not to worry though. It's my understanding that there is another group who has a much better understanding and their proposal is forth coming. They have found a way to keep motor tampering and the higher kv look alikes out of the equation all while allowing any ESC.;)

Have a great one fellas!!!
Doug:zip-up::thumbup:

[T.S.Davis]

Sheesh guys. Two threads on the same subject.

Keep your chin up Doug. Some of us know how it works. A group puts together an idea and somebody has to be the point man. You almost need to have bullet proof skin.....and a bullseye on your back. DO NOT accept any assaults on your integrity. I promise you will get them.

Doug, you need to go back to your group. They're wrong on this one. The majority of our itty bitty teeny weeny FE community is running under NAMBA. We've prooven that the ESC's are not the difference between winning and losing. There are many more factors. If the race results are not proof enough for them then how about participation? The limited spec classes are by far the most populated classes at the club and national level. It's been true for a couple seasons minimum and that's without the esc requirement. It's simply not holding people back. Get the group to put their pride (and maybe fear) aside for a second and think about what will put boats on the pond.

We already have differences in other classes to discourage cross over between organizations. There's the registration, struts, and the battery limits in scale to name a few.

Does IMPBA really want to make it harder (yet again) to race in both orginations? There just aren't that many of us to begin with.

[Darin Jordan]

We've prooven that the ESC's are not the difference between winning and losing.

Well... let's not get too crazy here... You haven't really "prooven" anything of the sort... If you prooven anything, it's that those that know how to tune their equipment properly will win... They just happened to be running stock ESCs that day... and were willling to push them beyond thier design limits. Put that same person in the race with an unlimited ESC and I think you'll see another leap in performance.

If you don't believe that, then you don't understand just what you can do with an ESC.

All that said... I still don't see where there is a movement to limit the ESCs... at least not in NAMBA. I thought that ship had sailed long ago.

[LuckyDuc]

How many races outside of your district have you attended lately Darin? Don't make assumptions about what people are doing elsewhere in the country.

[Darin Jordan]

How many races outside of your district have you attended lately Darin? Don't make assumptions about what people are doing elsewhere in the country.

What assumptions have I made?? We STARTED the spec racing craze in this part of the country, I have friends all over the US who race the class, and I develop boat packages specifically FOR this type of class... I'm not assuming anything... I stated clearly that I don't KNOW of any movement... I never said it didn't exist...

It's a losing battle, but have at it if you want. Already been there, done that. Limiting ESCs... leaving them open... it's all the same racing, so I don't give a rip one way or the other. Just tell me the rules and I'll go race if they make sense to me. If not, I'll pick a class that does. I'm RARELY thinking about my own interests when it comes to these types of rules. My thoughts are on what will be most appealing to the masses and get more people involved. The further you deviate from a simple RTR system, the more difficult it becomes for most people, especially those who are NOT dedicated races.... not already "insiders".

But again, in my opinion, the gennie is already out of the bottle. Not sure there would be much support to putting it back in.

Will be interesting to see what comes of this. :popcorn2:

[T.S.Davis]

All that said... I still don't see where there is a movement to limit the ESCs... at least not in NAMBA. I thought that ship had sailed long ago.

Yep. Over the horizon.

Darin has a problem with "proven". How about "participation seems to indicate"? Or maybe "sure seems like it don't make a lick O' difference under real world race conditions". Something like that.

Darin's worn the bulls eye suite too. Probably still has the scars.

[7500RPM]

Well Said Darin about the RTR class, I was really hopefull when AQ came out with the new boat, but if this keeps going like this, people will be changing out the ESC to get the higher performance out of the packages, kind of defeats the class, and the cost control !

[siberianhusky]

We're just getting a FE "club" together, a bunch of SV's for now.
Is there a spec for props? If not is this not more "unfair" than an esc change?
Should it be box stock right down to the AM radio that came in the original SV?
I don't know once there are too many rules things stop being as much fun, where does the line get drawn?

[T.S.Davis]

We're not talking about a stock class. We're talking about limited spec racing. If your club wants to do a stock SV class you can have what ever limits the club agrees to.

[Chilli]

Yep. Over the horizon.

Darin has a problem with "proven". How about "participation seems to indicate"? Or maybe "sure seems like it don't make a lick O' difference under real world race conditions". Something like that.

Darin's worn the bulls eye suite too. Probably still has the scars.

Well I dont have a problem with "proven". Spec controllers have proven reliable and provided fun, competitive racing the entire season with zero equipment failures in D12 and D13 last year. D12 probably had the fastest gowth of FE racing in the country last year and we're on pace for even faster growth this year. All with spec controllers. So how is Doug and Darin wrong???

Funny thing is, the only reason we started running spec controllers in District 12 was because we have a few nitro members who run P-spec boats at the World Tunnel Championships. The Charleston Model Boaters who host the event adopted some rules written by NAMBA members. Unfortunately I can no longer find them on the net. Anyway, the nitro guys did not want the new FE boaters coming in to have an advantage, so I went along with the spec controllers and havent looked back. I suppose the IMPBA should chase our tails following NAMBA? I've seen this same cinerio on the gas boards a year or so back. The IMPBA did some rule changes and people were running around like Chicken Little screaming "the sky is falling". Some said it would be the end of model boating. Others said no one from NAMBA would attend IMPBA Nats and visa versa. A few clubs even jumped ship over to NAMBA. Now a year later, many of the critics have admitted that the new changes were not such a big deal and attendance at Nats continues to be strong.

Doug Smock has only one item on his agenda and that is to do whats he feels is best to promote the growth of FE racing. We are a small group and I think Doug just wants to keep it simple and reliable for the new folks coming into the hobby. I thank him for taking the time to help get FE racing started in D12 last year. I thank him for stepping up to the plate and composing a long overdue set of IMPBA National Spec/Limited rules in a periond when the FE leadership at the national level is non existent.

No matter what the rules get adopted, I'll be out there racing!! :beerchug: