Feigao faster than castle?? what the...........

[6sHyper]

So lets here some opinions on WHY i got these results??

Boat: Apparition
Esc: T-180
power supply: 2x3s 5000mah in series for 6s.
prop:x442

Feigao 10xl 1668kv= 61.3mph 130f max temp timing was always 7.5

Castle 1512 1.5y 1800kv= 58.8mph 100f max temp timing was 7.5 as when i first tried 15 it was only 58.4mph

also tried x445 and m447 on the castle and m447 was slower x445 got me the max 58.8mph

So WHY would a higher quality higher kv rating Castle be slower than a Feigao 10xl????
:beerchug:

[keithbradley]

Are you getting consistant GPS results? I have had isolated wonky GPS results that I couldnt duplicate, I just throw them out.
If you are getting these type of numbers consistantly, I would say its time to check the kv of those motors. I have ran Feigao and Neucastle and they shouldnt really even be close power wise.

[Diesel6401]

I would imagine it's all about the props. If a lower diameter got you the best speed try going lower. Maybe something in the 40-42mm. That lower kv Feigao motor doesn't have any problem spinning that bigger prop at that speed because of it's torque but the CC maybe loaded up to much especially at 39k + unloaded rpm. Try getting a prop in that 40-42mm range I mentioned so that the motor can wind out more and the results maybe better. Just my 2 cents....

x440
x640
x442
x642
GR 42x55
prather 215

[keithbradley]

I wouldnt be surprised if the castle (or your batteries) was having trouble moving the amount of current that it needs at that rpm.
Honestly, the surprising thing in your post is that you went 61mph with that feigao...

[6sHyper]

Lol yeah everyone told me the Fiegao was gonna burn up quick yada yada yada, but heck it hasn't gone over 130f after a full length run and it rips.

[6sHyper]

And Diesel, like i said, i started with the x442 and that was 58.4mph with 15 degree timing on the CC. Then i switched to m447 and was slower, went to m445 7.5 degree timing got 58.8 and then x442 on 7.5 degree timing also got 58.8.

and yes my gps has been very consistant, (garmin forerunner 201)

[Fluid]

Because of the way these motors make power, using the same props on them will not give optimum results. The Feigao motors, like the Hackers they are copied from, run best at an rpm reasonably close to the Kv x nominal voltage, in this case 1668 x 22.2 = 37,000 rpm. With the x442 prop this calculates to around 60 mph which is close to what you saw.

The Castles on the other hand are similar to the motors they are copied from - the Neu 1500s. These motors usually run best around 10-15% slower than the calculated rpm, or 1800 x 22.2 x 85% = 34,000 rpm. With the x445 prop this too comes out to around 60 mph, very close to what you saw. This makes sense as the Castle has more torque than the Feigao and can swing a bigger prop.

To go faster, adding diameter didn't work as you exceeded the torque capability of the Castle. Go to a prop with about the same diameter but with more pitch. Try an x642 or m545 and see if this gives you a bit more speed. You may need to re-trim the boat with the different prop, another reason for differing speeds.

BTW, a difference in GPS speed of 1 mph is seldom significant at all. Two back-to-back runs with the identical setup will often have this much difference. Why? The GPS's accuracy tolerance, water conditions, state of charge or temperature of the battery.......the list is long.

Performance isn't always about top speed either. Acceleration and efficiency matter too, as does longevity. I haven't used the Castles but IME the Feigaos have been giving good quality performance for many years. I set several IMPBA SAW records with them including the top P Hydro record of 85+ mph - on nickel cells no less.




.

[6sHyper]

Hmmm. ok Fluid that seems to make some sense, although i find it hard to believe the torque has been exceeded. I have a CC 1520 1600kv that i may give a go too, maybe it will be faster for whatever reason, lol.

How do you go about adjusting the trim on an Apparition Cat anyhow?? The steering fin doesn't have any adjustment and those no tabs.

[keithbradley]

And Diesel, like i said, i started with the x442 and that was 58.4mph with 15 degree timing on the CC. Then i switched to m447 and was slower, went to m445 7.5 degree timing got 58.8 and then x442 on 7.5 degree timing also got 58.8.

and yes my gps has been very consistant, (garmin forerunner 201)

By consistant, you mean you have GPS'ed the feigao at that speed (or close to) more than once, right? I only ask because at that speed and RPM, you have to be pulling a fair amount of current (180A maybe?) through a 60A motor. I havent had that kind of luck with feigao, and personally I think the quality is not even close to comparable to castle, or even leopard. I have, on more than one occasion, had escs fall victim to feigao motors that suddenly pull huge amounts of current and almost act as a short.

On another note, what are you running for batteries? The rpm you are at with the castle has to be pulling some serious current...I have ran 1600kv castle motors on 6s with a 47mm prop and pulled over 200A. Running 20V 8000mah batteries, the result was less than 19V. If you are hitting a wall with your power supply, the rpm with the castle motors might actually be less than the rpm with the feigaos.

[Diesel6401]

And Diesel, like i said, i started with the x442 and that was 58.4mph with 15 degree timing on the CC. Then i switched to m447 and was slower, went to m445 7.5 degree timing got 58.8 and then x442 on 7.5 degree timing also got 58.8.

and yes my gps has been very consistant, (garmin forerunner 201)

Sorry didn't see that part. I still would say it's prop issue though.

[6sHyper]

Yes keith i have GPS'd it at 61.3 exactly 3 times on the x442 with the Feigao, and 58.7 twice on an m440.

as for batteries all my testing has been done on the exact same batts, which are zippy 3s 5000 30c

I've only ever hooke dup my turnigy watt and power analyzer once on the m440 and it was pulling about 155 amps if i remember correctly.

I totally thought the Castle was gonna blow the doors off the feigao, i'm just as shocked as anyone! heck i was shooting for 70 with it!! maybe the motor is a dud?? Idk

[keithbradley]

Yes keith i have GPS'd it at 61.3 exactly 3 times on the x442 with the Feigao, and 58.7 twice on an m440.

as for batteries all my testing has been done on the exact same batts, which are zippy 3s 5000 30c

I've only ever hooke dup my turnigy watt and power analyzer once on the m440 and it was pulling about 155 amps if i remember correctly.

I totally thought the Castle was gonna blow the doors off the feigao, i'm just as shocked as anyone! heck i was shooting for 70 with it!! maybe the motor is a dud?? Idk

I really dont think there is anything wrong with the castle. I think you are at the end of your batteries' potentials. If you are only running 2, I can guarantee it. I realize you are running the same batteries for both motors, but you have to understand the difference in current required to spin that prop at higher RPMs. Current spikes get crazy around 40,000RPMs setups, and you dont have the battery to turn the castle motor. When the current exceeds the battery's ability the voltage will drop, and the final RPM of the higher kv motor will be lower than the lower kv motor. For example you may be turning the feigao at 22V x 1668 which is around 36,700RPM, and turning the castle at 19V x 1800kv, which is like 34,000RPMs. Run you logger on the castle setup and I bet you see a huge amount of voltage drop under power. I would also bet that if you run the lower 1600kv castle motor it goes faster.
If you want to go for 70 (which is a long way from 61, but you can get closer), run 6s2p with the castle. I bet it makes a big difference.

[Diesel6401]

Yes keith i have GPS'd it at 61.3 exactly 3 times on the x442 with the Feigao, and 58.7 twice on an m440.

as for batteries all my testing has been done on the exact same batts, which are zippy 3s 5000 30c

I've only ever hooke dup my turnigy watt and power analyzer once on the m440 and it was pulling about 155 amps if i remember correctly.

I totally thought the Castle was gonna blow the doors off the feigao, i'm just as shocked as anyone! heck i was shooting for 70 with it!! maybe the motor is a dud?? Idk

155 amps on a m440 is a lot for that motor. Like Keith said you really need to be running a 2p setup. Your batts are only good for 120-150.

[6sHyper]

well i will check the power analyzer next time out, i dont think its capable of recording the voltage drop though.

as for a 6s2p setup, the only way feasable would be to run 4 3cells. as 2 6cells will be too thick to fit in, would need to run 2 up each side back to front. Has anyone done a 6s2p setup in an apparition and have pics of teh layout?? must be a real tight fit!

[6sHyper]

Keith, I'm thinking the 1520 1600kv will be faster too, just a hunch................... we will see. whats the fastest anyone on here has got an apparition or similar hull up to??

Is it weird that all i care about is going faster?? lol For whatever reason the need to go faster is all i seem to care about when it comes to boats! I think i need to build a rigger!!!

[keithbradley]

well i will check the power analyzer next time out, i dont think its capable of recording the voltage drop though.

as for a 6s2p setup, the only way feasable would be to run 4 3cells. as 2 6cells will be too thick to fit in, would need to run 2 up each side back to front. Has anyone done a 6s2p setup in an apparition and have pics of teh layout?? must be a real tight fit!

I have one here with 4 3s pack in it right now...no problem.

[6sHyper]

cool post a pic i'd love to see it, what kinda speeds you get? setup? etc...........

heres mine, and a sneak at my soon to run 6s Red evo

[keithbradley]

Keith, I'm thinking the 1520 1600kv will be faster too, just a hunch................... we will see. whats the fastest anyone on here has got an apparition or similar hull up to??

Is it weird that all i care about is going faster?? lol For whatever reason the need to go faster is all i seem to care about when it comes to boats! I think i need to build a rigger!!!

I ran a 1520 on 6s2p in my bittburger cat. It ran VERY well with a s220 prop. It turned a s225 at that rpm but pulled 209A doing so. I also perfectly landed a backflip that covered a pretty good patch of lake with that boat...:biggrin:

My internet search for the fastest cat ended here...75mph:


http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt328/keithbradley/Cheetah.jpg

[6sHyper]

lol

[Alexgar]

i dont think a 1520 will fit my cc1515 touches the hatch

[keithbradley]

Mine's actually a 32" Fightercat, which is a little different, but very similar in size. As far as speed, I dunno, its not finished yet. Maybe 61.4?:just-kidding: I have changed my plans (for the _th time now) and decided to run it on 8s1p. Just need to sell the two escs I have in the swap shop.

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt328/keithbradley/100_2241.jpg
http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt328/keithbradley/100_2242.jpg

[Fluid]

Yes keith i have GPS'd it at 61.3 exactly 3 times on the x442 with the Feigao, and 58.7 twice on an m440.

Sorry, I find the above impossible to believe. The OP wants an answer - then he disses all the responses. Bye.






.

[Alexgar]

yeah keith i saw the thread where you bought them i was tempted to i need to order a couple thing from there and was thinking of grebbing a small outrunner to play with in a 21" saw vee hull

[6sHyper]

keith do those come with the carbon fibre inside or did you do that?? looks really cool.

and IDK what fluid is talking about, i guess he thinks its impossible to get the same readings multiple times?? never said it was all in a row or that there wasn't other readings slightly off, and where did i diss responses?? lol

[6sHyper]

Alexgar i think i read somewhere that the newer apparitions sold had slightly more hatch clearance?? not sure, i guess i will find out soon if the 1520 fits, will let you know, i hope soooo.

[keithbradley]

keith do those come with the carbon fibre inside or did you do that?? looks really cool.

and IDK what fluid is talking about, i guess he thinks its impossible to get the same readings multiple times?? never said it was all in a row or that there wasn't other readings slightly off, and where did i diss responses?? lol

I did the carbon fiber. The same company sells some hulls that are ALL carbon fiber though...theyre pretty hot:thumbup1:

If you do run the 1520 in there, you may want to think about switching mounts. That motor is quite a bit heavier and longer...you may run into problems with the 2 bolt mount. http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt328/keithbradley/100_1992-1.jpg