Is my MG "special"? 30mph stock?

[PDR447]

"Special" meaning specially slow... I might be missing something but it seems that most people are running at in the low 30's(32-35) stock. My boat struggles to even hit 30. I've spent plenty of time testing strut settings and the best I ever got was 30 on GPS. I even tried a friends ESC to make sure mine wasn't stuck in LOG throttle or something.

My boat:
Hardware: 100% stock
Strut: ride pads are 1/8"-1/4" elevated when the strut is resting on a flat surface
ESC: Linear, high timing, no brake
Batts: 2xVenom 2s, 5000, 20c

The other thing is I cannot get the "WA WA WA" no matter where I set my strut. I guess that's kinda nice but I can't help but feel it doesn't "WA WA" because it's not performing to it's fullest.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/advice.

[lectriglide]

Whats your battery placement? Mine hang off the back of the tray about 1/2".
Also is the strut neutral?

[PDR447]

batteries are flush with the back of the trays. Now that you mention it that's the one thing I forgot to try adjusting. But, I did check the CG on the boat and with the batts at the edge of the trays my CG is about 9" from the stern.

Strut, I tried various settings. Went from too high, to too low, and a couple points in between. I saw decreases in speed at either extreme. But got my best run(30.5) somewhere in the middle. I'd say the center of the shaft was about even with the ride pads.

[lectriglide]

Do you have different batteries to try. Don't think the Venoms are up to the task.

[Diesel6401]

Do you have any drive line binding?
Did you try different batteries? (Venom batts can be iffy)
Is the coupler tight and not slipping?
Do you have the proper direction flexcable?
Do you have enough of a gap between the drive dog and strut?
What are your temps on the motor & esc?
Has the motor ever been dropped or overtemped?

[Darin Jordan]

Without data, it's tough to diagnose performance issues like this. My first suspect is the batteries. You do get what you pay for sometimes, and if the batteries are dropping voltage under load, you are going to be slower. The MG should be doing around 35-37 out of the box if it's running correctly.

The "Wa-Wa-Wa" that people experience is do to setup, and, frankly, lack of speed. Once you get this hull up to speed, that part tends to go away if you have it setup correctly.

What are the condition of the batteries??

[PDR447]

Thanks for all the responses. I guess I should also mention that I bought the boat second hand. The original owner purchased everything at the LHS in December. He told me he only ran it maybe 5-7 times and I believe him as it looks brand new. Also, there's not really anywhere to run them nearby so that would make it harder to get a lot of time on it. So with that said I can't completely verify the history of the boat. He was an experienced hobbyist(mostly planes) so I'd trust him to treat it properly.

To answer your questions:

Flex shaft feels fine/free. Just greased it.
Coupler is tight.
Flex is the correct direction.
Drive dog/strut gap is 1mm as per the manual. Set using a feeler gauge for accuracy. Is this the best setup? Should I give it 2mm?
Temps on everything(batts, ESC, and motor) were usually in the 70's after a long run. 80 max
Can't say if the motor was ever overheated due to being the second owner. But it was only ever run on the stock prop at 4s. Unless the water pickup got clogged I can't see it overheating.

Now, the batteries... Seems these are the main suspect. As I mentioned they're Venom 2s 5000 20c's. The original owner purchased them with the boat. They seem to be in great condition as they charge well and stay balanced within 1-5mv at all times. I don't have any other batts I can test with at the moment but my friends have some on the way from HK so I can try those when they get here. Are Venom's really that bad? I see plenty of people running Turnigy batts with good results. I would like to believe that Venom is at least on par with Turnigy.

So I guess there's not much I can do until I get my hands on another set of batteries. Thanks again to all of you for your input! I'll update this thread as soon as I test with the other batteries.

[Fluid]

All of the power in any boat is in the cells, so substandard cells will not give top performance. OTOH you don't need the most expensive cells to get a decent top speed with the "spec" motors. I'd not use cells with less than a 30C rating, this defines the ability of the pack to deliver energy. Unfortunately many companies inflate the "C" and capacity values for their packs, particularly the "bargain brands".

Knowing that the boat has a history, other things which can cause lower performance:

- Non-standard or damaged propeller
- Over-heated motor
- Re-programmed ESC

The latter two are longshots but possible. Check the prop, if the original owner broke the factory prop he may have replaced it with a less aggressive design...or not. Good luck, you'll get it figured out.



.,

[GP73]

EDIT: Fluid beat me to it... :) And yes, figuring it out is half of the fun! :banana:

Maybe I missed it, but what about the prop?

Is it damaged or unbalanced? You might want to sharpen it at least, but you need a balancer to make sure you don't get out of balance.

Or just order one from OSE or egneg.

[PDR447]

The prop is the stock plastic prop. It looks fine with no signs of damage. I even have the second spare prop that came with the boat. I suppose I could throw that on but the one on there now looks perfect.

As I mentioned earlier I swapped the ESC already to eliminate that. The only variables left are the motor(longshot for damage there) and the batteries(main suspect at this point). I was planning on running 5s down the road but maybe I'll order another set for 4s rather than a 5s set.

What do you guys think of these: http://www.hobbypartz.com/gens.html

And what's the "dirt" on turnigy? Would they have the same problem as these venoms?

[Diesel6401]

Then Gen aces have had a lot of positive feedback. I owned a few sets of Venom batts before and didn't really care for them. The didn't seem to deliver the way the turnigy's did, that's just my thoughts with no data to back them out. Now me I LOOOOOVE the Turnigy's and is what I mostly run. I have a pair of Tenergies that are more expensive then the Turnigy's and I like them too, but for the price and knowing their performance I am a Turnigy and Zippy fan. With that being said I have had 1 pack lose a cell and 1 pack quit balancing 1 was a zippy 1 was a turnigy, but I own/owned a good bit of their packs both large and small and all I am happy with. I am using some 6000mah nano-techs and those things rock but my favorite packs are these http://hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16194 best batt for the price IMO...

If you are willing to drop the $$$ Hyperions and TP would prob be the best, but if your like me and just a weekend runner by myself mostly and occasion with some friends then the Turnigy packs will serve their purpose and prob out perform the venom's.

Here's some data and you can see the difference in price
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=16937
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=17771

[GP73]

Never mind, I thought the MG came with the same stainless steel prop as the Stiletto (Prather 215).

Plastic props don't need sharpening/balancing.

I would say go with Turnigy/Zippy from HK or Blue Lipo from HobbyPartz, buy 40C or more if possible. You won't regret it.



The prop is the stock plastic prop. It looks fine with no signs of damage. I even have the second spare prop that came with the boat. I suppose I could throw that on but the one on there now looks perfect.

As I mentioned earlier I swapped the ESC already to eliminate that. The only variables left are the motor(longshot for damage there) and the batteries(main suspect at this point). I was planning on running 5s down the road but maybe I'll order another set for 4s rather than a 5s set.

What do you guys think of these: http://www.hobbypartz.com/gens.html

And what's the "dirt" on turnigy? Would they have the same problem as these venoms?

[Darin Jordan]

I've measured the pitch on all the ProBoat props. The plastic MG prop actually has a little bit more pitch than the Stiletto prop. However, it flexes under load, so I'm sure this isn't true when under power. The best you are going to see with the stock prop in a stock boat is around 34-35mph I would think. The Stiletto prop showed another 1-2mph for me... bumping speeds up around 36-37...

A 45x55 should push a stock MG over 40 without any trouble... with good cells...

[PDR447]

So it looks like I'll be ordering some new packs... As a sport boater, would you guys recommend 2 packs in series or parallel? I think I read something at some point about the pros/cons of each but I can't find it now.

The setup I'm debating:

2x 2s 5000 30c(or greater) in series for 5000mah at 4s

vs

2x 4s 2500 30c(or greater) in parallel for 5000mah at 4s

The cost of either of these setups seems about the same so that isn't a factor. Any reason to choose one setup over the other?

[jpracing1997]

I got some hobby king 5000 mah 40c packs and mine runs great. Upgraded motor and esc and now it runs 50.1 . I'm gonna reprop it this weak and break 60 i hope. I have a neu 1415 1.5y, 3s2p 5000 mah 40 c batteries and a 442 prop right now and it runs 50.

[dirty]

i got my batteries from fastrcbatteries.com,they work great.i only went to them cause i put an order in at hobbyking,checked my shipping status 3 weeks later and my batteries never even shipped so i canceled my order from them.i also tried hobbypartz cause they had a decent deal on chargers,so i ordered the thunder ac6.Got it in 2 weeks after order to find out it wouldnt charge my batteries correctly.Had to send that back.I wont order batteries from anywhere but fastrcbatteries now.john the owner usually ships them out next day,it took 2 days to get to me from pennsylvania to dallas.And he is more than happy to talk to you about any problems on the phone.I ordered 2 7.4 2s 5000 mah 40c.2 days later i ordered the same thing but he didnt have them in stock so he sent me same battery in a 45c and he will put whatever connector on it you need

[PDR447]

UPDATE: ran with some turnigy 4000mah 40-50c's and got a little better speed, 32.3 so there may be some truth to the venom batt problem but still seems a bit slow compared to what others are reporting here. my best recorded run on the venoms was 31 so I got a ~5% increase with better batteries. guess it's time to look into props(and 5s maybe).

[Darin Jordan]

What prop are you running on this? There may be some variance in the stock plastic, but you should be getting closer to 35mph out of the stock setup.

Still, you DO want to get a better prop anyhow. There are lots of recommendations on these threads. And X645 is a good place to start. Or an ABC 45x55. Either will wake your MG right up... You don't NEED 5S to go fast... but it does help increase the speed without pushing up the amps, so if you can afford it, give it a try.

[PDR447]

What prop are you running on this? There may be some variance in the stock plastic, but you should be getting closer to 35mph out of the stock setup.

Still, you DO want to get a better prop anyhow. There are lots of recommendations on these threads. And X645 is a good place to start. Or an ABC 45x55. Either will wake your MG right up... You don't NEED 5S to go fast... but it does help increase the speed without pushing up the amps, so if you can afford it, give it a try.

I've got a PB stiletto prop I picked up based on some readings around the board here. It was a cheap and easy upgrade to ditch to stock plastic prop and get rid of any flexing or imperfections in the plastic. And from what I read people even saw some speed increases just going from the plastic prop to the stainless. I've played with throttle trim/limits on my TX a TnT'd the strut until I got max speed. Seems my MG is just a bit slower than the others :doh:

I will definitely try a new prop down the line. Just wanted to get a good stock baseline before I started trying new parts. As for 5s, I am planning on buying another set of batts either way so rather than get another 4s setup I figured I may as well go 5s. That way I can still tune and play with my current 4s packs but if I ever want a quick speed fix I can throw in 5s.

[Diesel6401]

I've got a PB stiletto prop I picked up based on some readings around the board here. It was a cheap and easy upgrade to ditch to stock plastic prop and get rid of any flexing or imperfections in the plastic. And from what I read people even saw some speed increases just going from the plastic prop to the stainless. I've played with throttle trim/limits on my TX a TnT'd the strut until I got max speed. Seems my MG is just a bit slower than the others :doh:

I will definitely try a new prop down the line. Just wanted to get a good stock baseline before I started trying new parts. As for 5s, I am planning on buying another set of batts either way so rather than get another 4s setup I figured I may as well go 5s. That way I can still tune and play with my current 4s packs but if I ever want a quick speed fix I can throw in 5s.

Try a grim 42x55. Should get you good all around results on 4s & 5s. Make sure you take the proper steps in running 5s their is thread floating around how to do it on this esc. I ran mine on a x642 on 4s & 5s and it moved pretty good. I think the 42x55 is a better option for this hull though. JMO

I will add make sure you understand running a boat outside of the manufactors specs is your own risk...

[dana]

31 mph huh? crappy.... now youre gonna do what?!?! i dunno, yours seems like a lemon...

[PDR447]

Try a grim 42x55. Should get you good all around results on 4s & 5s. Make sure you take the proper steps in running 5s their is thread floating around how to do it on this esc. I ran mine on a x642 on 4s & 5s and it moved pretty good. I think the 42x55 is a better option for this hull though. JMO

I will add make sure you understand running a boat outside of the manufactors specs is your own risk...
Hmm, Darin's recommendations are slightly different(bigger) but I know both you guys know your sh:censored:

and I'm fully aware with running out of spec. I doubt I would even be eligible for warranty or anything since I bought it second hand. I'll keep an eye on temps and if I pop the ESC, oh well, excuse to upgrade.



31 mph huh? crappy.... now youre gonna do what?!?! i dunno, yours seems like a lemon...
:sarcasm1:???

[Diesel6401]

Hmm, Darin's recommendations are slightly different(bigger) but I know both you guys know your sh:censored:

and I'm fully aware with running out of spec. I doubt I would even be eligible for warranty or anything since I bought it second hand. I'll keep an eye on temps and if I pop the ESC, oh well, excuse to upgrade


Yes those props would work on 4s. I myself never ran larger then a m445 on 4s but I'm sure the BJ motor will swing those bigger props on 4s... To run 5s you should scale back the prop. I never had any issues running 5s but a guy not too long burned his esc up on 5s with a m445. Everytime I increase the voltage I normally decrease the prop a little until I know the system can handle the load.

*Thanks for the compliment, but I am sure Darin has forgotten more then I've ever known....

[dana]

nope. why do you have to switch props and batteries to break 31mph? thats ridiculous....

[Diesel6401]

nope. why do you have to switch props and batteries to break 31mph? thats ridiculous....

The stock motor is only 1500kv and on 4s his rpm is very low. Plus the prop he is using is in the 40mm range. You have low rpm and a small diameter prop it's running the way it should be. JMO of course. On 4s stick a bigger prop on it and take advantage of that motors torque...

[PDR447]

ok, last thing that popped into my head as a possible cause for my speeds: Strut/drive dog gap. I'm at 1mm per the manual(set with a feeler gauge). I've read many people recommending leaving a gap that is the same diameter as the flex, which is certainly not 1mm. Thoughts? what are others running on their MG's?

[dana]

ok, last thing that popped into my head as a possible cause for my speeds: Strut/drive dog gap. I'm at 1mm per the manual(set with a feeler gauge). I've read many people recommending leaving a gap that is the same diameter as the flex, which is certainly not 1mm. Thoughts? what are others running on their MG's?

1mm is tiny. try 1/8th to start. see if it helps. diesel mentioned this earlier

[Diesel6401]

Yea I run thickness off cable on everything I run

[PDR447]

PROBLEM SOLVED! and the culprit was.......... dog/strut gap. PB needs to update their manual! at the 1mm recommended gap must have just been too much friction. I opened it up to maybe 3-4mm and got 33 on my venom batteries today. so with good batteries I should be at 35/36!!

oh the only other thing I did at the same time was I also balanced/polished the stiletto prop. but I'm confident the strut gap made the big difference. not the balance/polish.

I'll be staying 4s I think. figure with a prop I can get close to 40, and that's plenty for me. don't want get so fast where I can't drive it without risking a blowover. I think I'll go with the prather 220 as it seems to be kind of in between both of your recommendations.

[PDR447]

Ran with my prather 220 yesterday and got 40 on GPS. Temps on everything were about 100 so I'm very happy with this setup.
:beerchug:

[bbosncali]

Wow 30mph to 40mph with a little adjustment and a prather 220 very nice... this is a great thread especially since I awaiting my mg any day now. Pdr what batteries were you using to hit 40mph? I know proboat recomends 25c plus. I haven't even got mine yet and I already got a prather 220 on the way a x642 on the way offset rudder leopard 4074 and 150a seaking esc all should be here about the same time and just got my zippy 40c 5000mah 2s lipos in so I can't wait to see what I can hit if your getting 40mph just wish I could find a water jacket for my 4074

[Diesel6401]

Wow 30mph to 40mph with a little adjustment and a prather 220 very nice... this is a great thread especially since I awaiting my mg any day now. Pdr what batteries were you using to hit 40mph? I know proboat recomends 25c plus. I haven't even got mine yet and I already got a prather 220 on the way a x642 on the way offset rudder leopard 4074 and 150a seaking esc all should be here about the same time and just got my zippy 40c 5000mah 2s lipos in so I can't wait to see what I can hit if your getting 40mph just wish I could find a water jacket for my 4074

What esc do you have? I do not believe Seaking makes a 150 amp esc.

Low profile Leopard water jacket: http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=leo-4050-jacket

[bbosncali]

Sorry hobbywing

[bbosncali]

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=21657

[bbosncali]

I swear I checked that site 3 times..... lol thanks for the link deisel that will fit the 4074 correct?

[Diesel6401]

Sorry hobbywing

Seaking is the boat series of esc's made by Hobbywing, they are one in the same.

I see now. They are not hobbywing seaking boat esc's, they are hobbywing platnuim esc's water cooled and waterproofed. That's why it through me off. Very nice, should work well. Hobbywing are great esc's. I never tried the platnium series but the seaking series works great. I may have to try those out sometime.

http://www.hobbywing.com/ENGLISH/Product.asp?BigClassName=BL%20ESC%20for%20Aircraft %20and%20Heli


http://www.hobbywing.com/ENGLISH/Product.asp?BigClassName=Brushless%20System%20for% 20Boat

[Diesel6401]

I swear I checked that site 3 times..... lol thanks for the link deisel that will fit the 4074 correct?

Yes:


Leopard 4074 2200kv motor with that low profile jacket. Not in a MG but you get the point. The MG has more room to work with then the mount in my Pursuit

[bbosncali]

Is the platinum series supposed to be better or worse? The seaking 180s look exactly like the turnigy 180s and those get awsome reviews also I got the 150 for a great price with card so I hope I won't be disapointed

[Diesel6401]

Is the platinum series supposed to be better or worse? The seaking 180s look exactly like the turnigy 180s and those get awsome reviews also I got the 150 for a great price with card so I hope I won't be disapointed

Hobbycity actually makes nothing they just rebrand everything. So the turnigy 180 is a seaking esc. If BC26 was using them I am sure they will work just fine. That guy builds some FAST stuff.

[bbosncali]

1 more quick question since it has no bec does it have lipo cut off mode?

[Diesel6401]

Here's the breakdown:

Hifei:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10626
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=hef-sword-120

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=12442
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=hef-sword-240hv

Hobbywing Seaking:

http://www.hobbywing.com/ENGLISH/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=421
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7377

http://www.hobbywing.com/ENGLISH/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=449
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7360
http://www.venom-group.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=1398

http://www.hobbywing.com/ENGLISH/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=453
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8945

http://www.hobbywing.com/ENGLISH/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=451
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8946

http://www.hobbywing.com/ENGLISH/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=452
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8937


Suppo:
http://www.suppomodel.com/
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=15134
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=15133

[Diesel6401]

1 more quick question since it has no bec does it have lipo cut off mode?

Completely seperate things. No BEC means you will need to run a external rx pack to power the servo and the receiver. BEC means the esc takes power from the main battery supply to supply power to the receiver and the servo.

You will need a rx pack. I used these in my MG just fine: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNRJ9&P=ML

[bbosncali]

Ok so then it should have lipo cutoff?? I ordered a castle bec just incase

[Diesel6401]

Ok so then it should have lipo cutoff?? I ordered a castle bec just incase

Yup will have a LVC.

CC bec will take care of the need for a rx pack. I run cc bec that in my MG because I dis-connected the bec on my stock esc. I like it ok, I still kinda like the rx packs better though, especially on higher voltage setups. I am kinda scarred to run the cc bec at higher then 4s. God forbid you poof that thing then your really :sinking-guy:

[PDR447]

Wow 30mph to 40mph with a little adjustment and a prather 220 very nice... this is a great thread especially since I awaiting my mg any day now. Pdr what batteries were you using to hit 40mph? I know proboat recomends 25c plus. I haven't even got mine yet and I already got a prather 220 on the way a x642 on the way offset rudder leopard 4074 and 150a seaking esc all should be here about the same time and just got my zippy 40c 5000mah 2s lipos in so I can't wait to see what I can hit if your getting 40mph just wish I could find a water jacket for my 4074

my 40mph setup is with turnigy 4000 40c's. so you'll be good with what you have.