Why are Castle ESCs so expensive?

[Boomer]

What is so different about the Castle ESC compared to others? The two ESCs pictured below are similar but worlds apart price wise.

Not looking to run down any one product, just to understand why someone would pay so much more for one over the other.
Thank you
Boomer

[Hydromaniac]

What is so different about the Castle ESC compared to others? The two ESCs pictured below are similar but worlds apart price wise.

Not looking to run down any one product, just to understand why someone would pay so much more for one over the other.
Thank you
Boomer
You know the saying you get what you pay for!!
IMO the castle is a far better product, and service if something goes wrong. I have ran them both and there is no comparison.

[RaceMechaniX]

Another big difference in the retail cost between the two is the overhead and R&D that goes into them. Castle does the R&D here in the States and provides excellent customer service. The copy cat companies simply wait till someone releases a good product, reverse engineer it and then turn around manufacture and rebadge and sell it for a fraction of the cost.

Tyler

[RIPFENCE]

why do we not see any schulze copycats then?

[Boomer]

Thank you and I really appreciate your responses. I am hoping for something more specific.

Since you have owned and operated both, can you define "there is no comparison"? Is it made differently? Does it run cooler?Did it last longer? Do they have lower failure rates? Does it make the boat faster?

What happened to the Turnigy? Have you had a service or failure issue with the Castle that you can share, and what happened with the other brand to bring you to your conclusions?

The warranty and/or tech support aspect is of course of value, especially if you have ever tried to get warranty or tech support from Hobby King. I do know someone that did return an ESC (aircraft style) to HK and got a replacement, but it took 3 to 4 months, and some wrangling to get them to do it.

I have not heard or read postings on either of these brands in regard to them failing. I am just trying to get some hard data, so I can justify spending, at least twice the amount on the Castle.

I suspect, most failures of ESC's are the results of improper applications or abuse by the user. I am trying to learn how to spec batteries to ESC's, to motors, to props. I have a long way to go.

I read as many posts as I can in the hope of avoiding a melt down. I have smoked one ESC, and don't want to do it again. It was 100% my fault, and the damage was only to the ESC, so I consider myself fortunate and have learned from that experience. I am more careful know, and understand the difference between in "series" and in "parallel", so I am making some progress. :thumbup1:

I am not looking for "feelings" about the differences. The old saying of "you get what you pay for", is not as accurate as it used to be. I look at it from a more jaded point of view. I think you get what you pay for, if you know what your are buying, and you won't if you don't.

Times have changed, and integrity is not a very common thing any more. Bitter, no, I've just been around a long time and 35 years of being in the business world have brought me to this conclusion.

I like to be an educated buyer, and this and other RC forums have provided invaluable information to help me become a better buyer. Thus, my questions today.

Again, thank you for responding!:thumbup:
Boomer

[Doby]

You are paying a lot for the "name".....for better or worse.

[RaceMechaniX]

why do we not see any schulze copycats then?

There probably are Schulze copy cats, but I believe the footprint (being flat and long) makes its less attractive to copy as they do not fit in many appications. Nice small compact units like Castle or MGM are easier to sell as a universal one size fits all esc.

The Schulzes and YGE look awfully close, but controller design does not deviate very far from good practices so I would expect them to be similar. Same with Castle and MGM. I believe they both are mostly original designs. but they look very familiar.

Also, Schulze may use some more expensive materials and perhaps more sophisticated PCB design which makes it harder to copy.

This is all speculative and just my opinion.

Tyler

[Doby]

why do we not see any schulze copycats then?

Because German Engineering can't be copied:w00t:

[Hydromaniac]

I race and every turnigy I have owned has failed in a very short time under race conditions, Tunigy did not stand behind the product at all. Then on The other hand I have owned and raced with over 15 Castle Esc,s with only 1 failure @ 2 years old, and Castle Replaced it no charge in a matter of days. Also Castle Creations is a Fantastic supporter of Organized racing. I have never seen anything from Turnigy. Just another bennifit from Castle IMO.

[Ub Hauled]

there are the materials as well... if you unwrap the CC and the Turnigy you'll probably notice that the MOSFETS are not the same, that solders are done differently, different CAPS and probably less pure copper on the board... and those are only the items that are more visible...

[RIPFENCE]

i guess it depends on what you value the most...there is no esc out there that is bullet proof..especially in boats when you have many variables/situations that can cause failures..i have run many of the rabadged as well as castles..i am going to give my honest opinion based on both...i am just a sport boater and not a racer..i have had more luck with the turnigy brands then castles...some here will tell you the exact opposite...but in the end castle is going to hit you again for a repaired esc...its not what i would consider a cheap repair service either..i would rather take my chances with knock offs and save money from the get go..i am going to try the castle hydra ice series when it comes out..and it may sway me to castles side...but right now i would rather have 3 turnigy 180's then one castle hydra 240 for sport boating purposes

[RaceMechaniX]

Thank you and I really appreciate your response. I am hoping for something more specific.

Since you have owned and operated both, can you define "there is no comparison"? Is it made differently? Does it run cooler?Did it last longer? Do they have lower failure rates? Does it make the boat faster?

What happened to the Turnigy? Have you had a service or failure issue with the Castle that you can share, and what happened with the other brand to bring you to your conclusions?

The warranty and/or tech support aspect is of course of value, especially if you have ever tried to get warranty or tech support from Hobby King. I do know someone that did return an ESC (aircraft style) to HK and got a replacement, but it took 3 to 4 months, and some wrangling to get them to do it.

I have not heard or read postings on either of these brands in regard to them failing. I am just trying to get some hard data, so I can justify spending, at least twice the amount on the Castle.

I suspect, most failures of ESC's are the results of improper applications or abuse by the user. I am trying to learn how to spec batteries to ESC's, to motors, to props. I have a long way to go.

I read as many posts as I can in the hope of avoiding a melt down. I have smoked one ESC, and don't want to do it again. It was 100% my fault, and the damage was only to the ESC, so I consider myself fortunate and have learned from that experience. I am more careful know, and understand the difference between in "series" and in "parallel", so I am making some progress. :thumbup1:

I am not looking for "feelings" about the differences. The old saying of "you get what you pay for", is not as accurate as it used to be. I look at it from a more jaded point of view. I think you get what you pay for, if you know what your are buying, and you won't if you don't.

Times have changed, and integrity is not a very common thing any more. Bitter, no, I've just been around a long time and 35 years of being in the business world have brought me to this conclusion.

I like to be an educated buyer, and this and other RC forums have provided invaluable information to help me become a better buyer. Thus, my questions today.

Again, thank you for responding!:thumbup:
Boomer


Boomer,

They are many similarities and differences and many good reasons to buy on over another. The old adage "you get what you pay for" is mostly correct when you look at the global view. When you look zero in on the price point it comes down to materials and labor costs. This is where the Chinese excel.

Tyler

[Shooter]

Castle go boom: Replacement sent free of charge!

Chinese go boom: :sinking-guy:

[driftah]

my turnigy 180 has taken a pounding and I would buy another anyday.I hear of just as many turnigy failures as castle failures around here.So much has to do with choosing the proper esc for the job...as a lot of people will say dont use over 4s on a castle etc and their turnigy smoked when i ran 6s with the bec on..etc etc.I also watched a few schulze esc's go up in flames on youtube whether its user error or not,who knows.I would rather buy 3 t180's then one castle as long as you set it up right and dont push it.My friends hate me because I run cheap esc's and get way more than I pay for..but my day will come....someday.

[Boomer]

Ok, we are making some progress. Those of you that have manufacturing experience know that companies offering warranty programs factor into their pricing the cost of repair or replacement. It is usually "factored" by using known or anticipated failure rates. So, we can assume that Castle includes this in their pricing, and for a direct comparison HK does not.

One member has observed that the MOSFETS are not the same, that solders are done differently, have different CAPS, and suggests that less pure copper maybe used on their circuit boards.... This is good information, if we know that the differences translate to higher quality, or are they just different methods of manufacturing?

It would be hard find hard data on the failure rates of either product for a number of reason's, primarily because of the wide range of how a person uses, or abuses the product, and the variables in the conditions, and finally the wide range of combinations of batteries, motors, props the ESC has to deal with.

In summary it appears that the pricing difference can be in part attributed to Castle having good warranty and replacement program. Further, that Castle does R&D which could suggest they have designed a higher quality product, but unless they make theirs in the US, this has to be tempered with the fact of it being made in China. I am guessing the Castle is made in China.

Thank you all for your replies!!!

I am reminded of my friends that drink and buy the higher priced vodkas; Grey Goose, Chopin or Stoli or Absolute and tell me how much better it is, and that they don't like the cheaper brands. I like their vodka too, because it is free!:thumbup1:

When I buy vodka, I buy Smirnoff vodka. For fun I put my Vodka it in a High dollar vodka bottle, and served it to them out of the freezer and straight up. Not one of them noticed a difference. Ok, so it is not exactly the same comparison, but it is similar.

I accept that Vodkas are made in many different ways, and with different ingredients, and I accept the same of ESCs, but I think for my first experience with a higher amp ESC, I am going to try the Turnigy. I will document the application and the results moving forward until I fail one or two.

Thank you all! Very interesting stuff!!:thumbup:

Boomer

[RIPFENCE]

As long as you know what you are getting upfront that is more then half the battle!!

[video200]

Castle go boom: Replacement sent free of charge!

Chinese go boom: :sinking-guy:

unless you live outside the US. my exsperiance with castle is. great on the phone and by mails.
i still had to pay $150 for a replacement + postage both ways and sinse they was unable\forgot\whatever to mark the parcle with "replacement" i got a 25% VAT added to the whole deal.

but ones thats saied. i LOVE my hydra.

[Flying Scotsman]

Now if you were talking single malt whisky. there is a huge difference to the price quality equation......ESCs are just a fuse and if you go to their rated max specs BOOM..The Germans probably design the best ESCs but one has had some problems with their newest design.

Douggie

[Hydromaniac]

Castle go boom: Replacement sent free of charge!

Chinese go boom: :sinking-guy:

One of the reasons I prefer Castle.

[Doby]

Myself and a few other members have sent controllers back to HK and they have been replaced free of charge.....it just takes a while sometimes.

[BondoBrushless]

The Castle ESCs are assembled here in the states and have the best customer support of any company out there. Small price to pay for peace of mind and have top qaulity ?

[driftah]

now with the turnigy it depends on if you want warranty asap or maybe just to toss it in the mail wait and hope but maybe while your waiting for it like doby said....buy another and have a spare for still less money lol..the castle warranty may be quicker but obviously you do pay for it up frontContoversially I love the mamba monster car esc's go figure and they are reasonable and easy to get lmao...bottom line for me is runtime and you still do have to wait for castle replacement,that is why i keep 2 esc's on hand always.

[electric]

My experiences is I have blown up one Castle 120hv(my fault) and one Turnigy 180 (I was running a data logger at the time and it should not have blown). That said, I mailed in the Turnigy and it was replaced free of charge(less my 10 bucks or so for shipping). The second one has not failed and is still running great.

I kept my castle for awhile to send it in to get a credit and buy a replacement, but even with the replacement discount it is cheaper to buy a turnigy which, so far are working great.

I guess I would say if Castle was within 20% of the cost of the turnigy I would probably pay the premium for another one, but the spread in price is so huge that it makes it an issue. Let me finish by saying I still believe the Castle is better, but the cost for performance is high for a sport boater.

[NativePaul]

Why are Castle ESCs so expensive?
They aren't, if you look at the prices of any of the other ESC makers that do their own R&D like Shulze, YGE, MGM, Hacker, Jetti, Kontronik etc then you will see that Castle Creations are actually at the cheaper end of the scale. However there have been some extremely cheap cloned ESCs like the one in the picture you posted coming out of China recently which make Castles look expensive by comparison.

The Chinese can offer these prices because of the lack of R&D and the wage rate in China but both of these have negatives too, no R&D is cheap but means that their ESCs will always be a little behind the times for example 4 of the ESC makers listed above have built in datalogging and castle will be adding it soon. The low wage rates are cheap and they can just employ more people to hand solder components rather than spending large amounts of money on expensive CNC pick and place soldering stations saving even more money, but the accuracy will not be as good which means they have to use thicker thermal tape which doesn't conduct heat as well and still some of the FETs may not touch the tape which means even if they had the same design and same components the un-cooled FETs on the Chinese version will blow long before the original article.

[ray schrauwen]

The Castle ESCs are assembled here in the states and have the best customer support of any company out there. Small price to pay for peace of mind and have top qaulity ?

I would like to see a picture of that to satisfy my curiousity. This could mean all they do is solder the boards together and add leads for all I know???

Castle is not Top Quality, Schulze, yes.

[ray schrauwen]

The last thing I'll say about any esc's is the the capacitors are DISPOSABLE items!

Once you come to terms with this you can understand what esc you need to buy.

All capacitors wear out, then BOOM! Esc fails.

If Castle, Warranty or core credit.

If Turnigy, then Warranty, no core credit but, Warranty comes from China, don't expect it fast.

What else is there to be said? Maybe add some of the best Caps you can find will lengthen the life of your esc and Maybe, just maybe if people would start using anti-spark for 4S + setups, they would have less experience on the BURN factor.

Capacitor Dielctric does not like the sudden jolts like the spark created on plug in, you guys getting this yet....:blah:

[Boomer]

Ray,
Please share with me and any other dolts that may not be familar with "anti-spark". I would like to incorporate this practice into my set up routine. I don't like that spark and would like understand how to prevent it.
Thank you

[LiPo Power]

I am 100% with Ray on this subject.
All ESC's are good if used properly.
Last season I was using Doby's SV-27 very old ESC several times with good quality cap installed.. Ohh wait! There was propably few other guys using this ESc before me in emergancy on few diferent boats, motors and props. Well, guess what? This ESc is still going and going like Energizer Bunny...
T-180 from China is made using USA's FEDS.... and on and on. Capacitors is the key in my opinion and that is why I will allways use them to mod my ESC's
Just my few cents....
Robert

[LiPo Power]

If you can, post a picture.... :olleyes:





Ray,
Please share with me and any other dolts that may not be familar with "anti-spark". I would like to incorporate this practice into my set up routine. I don't like that spark and would like understand how to prevent it.
Thank you

[BondoBrushless]

This might help as well ?


http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/nospark.html

[jimbo--jones]

Boomer, you just add a capacitor in parallel with your main connecting wire. All you do is connect the resistor, before you connect the main cables together.
The resistor slows the rush of current, letting the caps charge slower.
After a sec or 2 you can connect the main cables together and then disconect the resistor.

say the resistance of the main connecting wires are 0.1ohm, and you are using 20 volt batteries,

I=V/R so therefore the current rush will be 20/0.1=200 amps.

Say you connect a 10ohm resistor 1st, the rush would only be 20/10=2 amps.

Im using 1/2 watt 47 ohm resistors then connect the main cables a few seconds after. only draws 0.42 amps then and the sparks are gone.

[ray schrauwen]

I have read that some people are informed that the spark lets them know the esc is working, well yes an no.

Yes if it sparks it is working but, if the caps fail and esc blows who gives a *!***!***!***!**.

O.k. I followed Chris from our club and from the Schulze web site between 20 ohms & I think 50 ohms is good. I would say 1/2 watt, or 1 watt, larger is always better.

I use 33 0hms I think 1 watt.

I just solered it inline with 2 aligator clips.

Plug in POS+ first, then NEG- but with the resistor clipped inline, wait about 10 seconds and then connect the negative lead.

The key is to keep the resistor plugged in while you make direct contact. If you disconnect the resistor, you will get a spark still, the longer disconnected the larger the spark since the caps are discharging as soon as they loose power.

It's very simple on 2P setups but for 1P some others have used a permanent resistor solered to one lead with the other lead bent over so you have to keep it connected.

I think I have a pic of that too.

[ray schrauwen]

Boomer, you just add a capacitor in parallel with your main connecting wire. All you do is connect the resistor, before you connect the main cables together.
The resistor slows the rush of current, letting the caps charge slower.
After a sec or 2 you can connect the main cables together and then disconect the resistor.

say the resistance of the main connecting wires are 0.1ohm, and you are using 20 volt batteries,

I=V/R so therefore the current rush will be 20/0.1=200 amps.

Say you connect a 10ohm resistor 1st, the rush would only be 20/10=2 amps.

Im using 1/2 watt 47 ohm resistors then connect the main cables a few seconds after. only draws 0.42 amps then and the sparks are gone.

Thank you, more & better info!:rockon2:

[jimbo--jones]

I am 100% with Ray on this subject.
All ESC's are good if used properly.
Last season I was using Doby's SV-27 very old ESC several times with good quality cap installed.. Ohh wait! There was propably few other guys using this ESc before me in emergancy on few diferent boats, motors and props. Well, guess what? This ESc is still going and going like Energizer Bunny...
T-180 from China is made using USA's FEDS.... and on and on. Capacitors is the key in my opinion and that is why I will allways use them to mod my ESC's
Just my few cents....
Robert

They look like normal caps? Id be carefull if they are. They heat up way more than rubycons.

[LiPo Power]

No temp issues so fare....




They look like normal caps? Id be carefull if they are. They heat up way more than rubycons.

[Boomer]

Ah!This helps. Thank you
Boomer

[JackBlack26]

I am 100% with Ray on this subject.
All ESC's are good if used properly.
Last season I was using Doby's SV-27 very old ESC several times with good quality cap installed.. Ohh wait! There was propably few other guys using this ESc before me in emergancy on few diferent boats, motors and props. Well, guess what? This ESc is still going and going like Energizer Bunny...
T-180 from China is made using USA's FEDS.... and on and on. Capacitors is the key in my opinion and that is why I will allways use them to mod my ESC's
Just my few cents....
Robert

Do the extra caps just get added as shown, to the power wires?

Coming over to FE bats from land bases R/Cs I can tell you that NO ONE in the industry can match Castle's customer service and their eagerness get you back to playing with your toys. I had a Mamba Monster ESC go bad and they sent me out a new one before I sent the old one in using my CC as collateral. No questions asked. I highly doubt Hobby King will do that. But unfortunately our economy forces some of us to look for cheaper replacements since there isn't much money to spare for this expensive hobby now days. If it were up to me, I would run nothing but Castle electronics, motors included. But because I'm jobless and only my wife is working right now, I have to make due with whats available in my price range.:thumbsdown:

[ray schrauwen]

Good points Blackjack.

One day I hope to own a Schulze 40-160 or better, one day....

[Boomer]

I sure appreciate all the really great input to my inquiry. I am going forward to install capacitors on my boats! Very helpful information!!

I am a sucker for outstanding service and quality, but driven more by the actual value being offered, not by price. A low price might get my attention, but I will take the time to check out the actual value being offered, which I am doing here via this thread. A price that is too low, can be an invitation to problems.

The issue here, at least to me, seems to be that the margin (profit) Castle has set for their products, maybe a bit more than current market conditions permit to capture the value hunters. I hope their business is doing well, but if they haven't noticed it yet, the economy is in the "toilet" and that most of us are having to cut back (perhaps way back) on just about everything. I know I sure am!

For this discussion, I think we are safe in concluding that Castle adds value to their products, and that there are a number of you that feel their added value is worth the difference in price between these two companies ESC's.

We have also read reports of failures and successes with both products, so we know both work, and both fail. We have read reports of outstanding service from the Castle team, and not so great service from the Hobby King folks, but in time, they will come through and provide replacements. In most cases the failed or defective product has to be returned before a replacement can be sent. (which is the norm) It is clear, by the reports here, that the Castle people are the clear winners when it comes to timely responses to any problem. It is reasonable to conclude that Castle products and other high end ESC's may in some ways be of higher quality than the Turnigy products.

I would certainly give Castle products a shot if they were a bit more realistic with their pricing. If the consumer can by two or perhaps even three of your competitors equivalent item, for the same price as one of yours, you are facing some serious long term market share issues, and possibly worse long term bottom line issues.

I'd like to believe that the good guys win, but in the last decade, I am not seeing it. The market drivers have changed. I buy American products when and where possible, but it is very hard to find things that are actually made here. It really is tragic !

Again, thank you all for the great discussion and tips! Super job.
Boomer

[JackBlack26]

Boomer, if it helps you can get on the Tower Super Savor club and get a Hydra 120 for $152.99 which still qualifies it for free shipping too. That's a $25 savings + shipping.

When I've returned things to Castle they have taken care of shipping too. Since I left them a CC as collateral and they sent me out a new unit, they included a return label and package for the defective item to be returned to them. IMO, this is the type of service that warrants the higher prices.

I placed and order with HK a while ago and it got canceled for some reason, on their end. I could not get a hold of anyone on the phone, of course. Once I finally got someone through their site on "chat", they told me they knew nothing about my $150 or why they canceled it. Then they told me it was payPal's fault, lol. Paypal was telling me that they had withdrawn the money from my account and it was definitely in HK's account. After filing a dispute and waiting on my $150 for 10 days, Paypal returned it. Asides from that, shipping is usually double the price of one item, if you want it in 7-10 days, and if you get a return authorization for an item that has failed, you flip the bill for the return of a $60 item back to China. How long you will wait for a replacement, I don't know as I have much rather throw the item away than waste any more money on it.

I have had great luck with their $14.99 2S 20-30 LiPos though considering you can get about 6 of them for just over $100 shipped. Cant beat that!!

Just something else to consider.

Rafael

[Boomer]

Rafeal
Good tip! I checked it out - costs $9.99 for a year. Worth a try. Thank you.

Boomer

[Boomer]

Bondo
That is very cool. Thank you and Ray and all that have replied.
Merry Christmas Guys!
Boomer

[Jmauld]

Boomer its almost an old story at this point. American company designs an innovative product. Sends it to china to be developed. Chinese companies rip it off and sell it for half the price. American company goes out of business. Shame on us for giving our manufacturing capability away.

Send an email to castle and let them know you prefer a USA made product, or just turn your head and buy the cheapest thing you can find from china. Your choice.

[Boomer]

The powers to be at Castle determine their margins and are the ones that should be paying attention to the market conations, trends etc. They are big boys, and if their strategy is to sell a product at more than double what others are selling theirs for, that is their choice. There are even more expensive ESC's out there so, there are many choices for us.

Manufacturing off-shore sadly, is a reality of our times. Too many people are to blame to start naming them.
I looked at all of my RC boats and planes and am sad to report that every darned one of them was made in China. Would I rather buy American? Absolutely, and yet we continue to buy them. Why are they made over there? So we all can afford to buy them.

I hope this can be turned around at some point, but not going to hold my breath. For now, I will continue to shop around to find the best value for my dollars.

Merry Christmas to all
Boomer

[ray schrauwen]

You will see changes soon enough. The Yuan is to be re-valued in the new year. How much is the question.

Eventually as China becomes a bigger consumer and the price of their goods goes up, hopefully the USA will get rolling again, more competition with prices more competitive.

[Doby]

In a generation or two...all outsourcing will be done by Canada and the USA for China.