Miss Geico Race Prep

[Darin Jordan]

Yup... got mine tonight!

Pretty exciting. Race prep is going to be pretty easy... Looks to me like it's just going to take some blue-printing of the bottom, which is decent, but, like will ALL composite boats, can be improved upon. Flatten, sharpen, true...

Other than that, looks like a P-Limited Offshore ready race-boat to me!! :thumbup1:

Going to run it straight out of the box for the first tests, to get a baseline and see how it does in bone-stock trim. Won't stay that way long, though... ;)

[Darin Jordan]

Some shots of the bottom....

[firefighter1503]

I am pretty jealous!!

[johnf]

What a sweet looking cat! Great job Darin!

[boogeyman]

if u had to guess what kinda speeds to you think it will handle before becoming unstable with the hull and layout fairly stock. 60+???

[Darin Jordan]

if u had to guess what kinda speeds to you think it will handle before becoming unstable with the hull and layout fairly stock. 60+???

I don't know... what do you say we find out!?

My goal in designing this was to make it very raceable in the 45-50mph range, because that's what I think is possible with the P-Limited power system in this hull. Beyond that, I really don't know. I would suspect that it should be stable for awhile, but it's going to have to be tried to know for sure.

I think someone like Jay Turner, if he had one on his bench, would have a better idea.

[johnf]

When I scoop one up I'm gonna make a trip to Texas to have Jay wave his magical fe hands over the hull and perform the hotmbc turn on rails / accelerate like missile blessing he must do to all of his personal boats.

[boogeyman]

im just thinking that since the hull is much larger and has a better design that since people have ran nearly 80 w a bj26 that a larger hull w better design should be able to maintain a stable stance in the water at a fairly good clip.

im planning on picking one up tomorrow if my local hobby shop has one and putting my good power system in it and a m642 prop and see what it acts like on 4s and 6s power

[Darin Jordan]

When I scoop one up I'm gonna make a trip to Texas to have Jay wave his magical fe hands over the hull and perform the hotmbc turn on rails / accelerate like missile blessing he must do to all of his personal boats.

:iagree: :thumbup1:

[HYDROJERRY]

''Dang'' just bault a used sv now no money bummer,,,,,

[jac4412]

The best part about this boat is I'm going to be able to see it all over my lake. I tend to lose my other boats when they're all the way across

[HYDROJERRY]

Cant wait for someone to do a vid of one,,,better than the Proboat vid...

[Darin Jordan]

One more thing that I'm not sure many people have noticed... The Miss Geico comes with a new DIGITAL steering servo!

[airman66285]

One more thing that I'm not sure many people have noticed... The Miss Geico comes with a new DIGITAL steering servo!

Whoa! This boat keeps surprising me! :rockon2:

[blackcat26]

Just got mine today Darin and I must say you have made me very happy! This is a killer boat for the money for sure. All the upgrades for just $40 more than a BJ26! Great job man.

[tman52804]

Darin,

My paint job is alittle light in some areas and the tips of the sponsons are white and not neon green. What paint did they use and can we buy touch up paint?

[Darin Jordan]

Darin,

My paint job is alittle light in some areas and the tips of the sponsons are white and not neon green. What paint did they use and can we buy touch up paint?


I wish I knew... I didn't have anything to do with that part. I would contact ProBoat or Horizon. Sorry...

My paints fine, but I think I'm going to paint the sponson tips neon Orange, like the real boats sometimes have... just for fun.

[Diesel6401]

Darin,

Are you using the battery trays or removing and setting them lower in the sponsons. I know it was a must to do on the BJ, just curious how this boat is? Thanks.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin,

Are you using the battery trays or removing and setting them lower in the sponsons. I know it was a must to do on the BJ, just curious how this boat is? Thanks.

This boat will handle great with the batteries up on the trays... It's WAY wider than the BJ, and the geometry isn't anywhere near the same. The trays add rigidity to the hull as well.

I'm planning on trying it straight up and only changing what must be changed to perfect the package for racing. I have a feeling the changes will be minor. :thumbup1:

[Diesel6401]

This boat will handle great with the batteries up on the trays... It's WAY wider than the BJ, and the geometry isn't anywhere near the same. The trays add rigidity to the hull as well.

I'm planning on trying it straight up and only changing what must be changed to perfect the package for racing. I have a feeling the changes will be minor. :thumbup1:

Thanks for the info :beerchug:

[jnation89]

hey i got lucky and found a flex shaft rotating the right direction, so i went and ran it today. but i ran into a different problem. when i turned the boat on and tested the steering, it was weird. it shook around after i let off steering one direction. i tried it for a second and the steering was delayed and sticking for a second when id let off. any ideas on this one??

[Brushless55]

Looking forward to the setups in this thread.. :beerchug:

[Diesel6401]

Onething I found when checking the direction of my flexshaft is their was not a good amount of grease on the shaft. I also found a couple of the bolts on the hardware mount loose. I really REALLY like how the nuts are inserted into the transom the way they are. Well thought out. I'll start soldering tomorrow, got to replace the deans and the motor/esc connectors with some 5.5's. So pumped to get this thing in the water, just don't want to rush it.

Darin do you feel it neccessary to round the lower leading edge of the rudder? I did this on my SV and it made a world of difference. Not sure the effects it would have on this cat.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin do you feel it neccessary to round the lower leading edge of the rudder? I did this on my SV and it made a world of difference. Not sure the effects it would have on this cat.

Ummmm... well... Not sure it's "necessary", but I do this on all my wedge rudders, and turn fins, for that matter, so feel free if you think it will help. Certainly will assure you don't have unwanted lift at the back of the boat.

[Diesel6401]

Ummmm... well... Not sure it's "necessary", but I do this on all my wedge rudders, and turn fins, for that matter, so feel free if you think it will help. Certainly will assure you don't have unwanted lift at the back of the boat.

I rounded mine, after the stock run. WOW what a great run. Ran 4s & 5s today.

[johnf]

Great pics diesel. I'm loving this boat!

[jac4412]

I'm just looking at the pictures again.... man what a sharp looking boat. Proboat really hit a homerun with how clean and scaled down this model looks

[ray schrauwen]

Very sharp, glad I got a hull on the way :w00t:

[Diesel6401]

Yes this boat is truely amazing, and pictures really dont do it justice. I am in the process of setting up the telemetry in this badboy.

[Brushless55]

I rounded mine, after the stock run. WOW what a great run. Ran 4s & 5s today.

Was that speed on 5s or 4s?

[blackcat26]

Gps picture was 5s.

[Diesel6401]

Was that speed on 5s or 4s?

36.1mph on 4, 46.4mph on 5. Check the vid I love this cat...

:bowdown: to Darin on this great cat.


I still have to post the vid I have of my apache saving my MG. Solder joint on my batt came loose left the mg stranded... It must have been a late night because when i removed the heat shrink that solder job sucked Im surprised it lasted a year like it did. I must have been drunk soldering again :doh: "shame on you diesel :Shame_on_You:"

[ray schrauwen]

How smooth is the PB esc in this compared to say a Swordfish/Turnigy?

Is it more like a Suppo or Hacker with less steps and not that smooth?

Just curious...

[tman52804]

I just bought the larger octura coupler with the two set screws, man, it doesn't look like it will fit without trimming the flexshaft housing. It would need to be shortened up a bit.

[Diesel6401]

How smooth is the PB esc in this compared to say a Swordfish/Turnigy?

Is it more like a Suppo or Hacker with less steps and not that smooth?

Just curious...

To be honest with you it is really not that bad. WAY better than the SV 45amp esc that's for sure. I didn't notice any hickups or issues. For a RTR esc it's gets a :thumbup:

[stringfly]

Mines all ready to go. (with correct flex drive) Since my friend has one I had to add some color to mine just so they would not look identical. Day glo orange monokote trim. Is it bright enough now :eek: !!!! Will be running tomorrow. Hopefully with video of both running together. Printed some different decals also.

Thanks OSE for the quick shipping.

Stringfly <>+++++

[jac4412]

You could blind someone with that thing

[tacticalretreat]

looks sweet...i like the geico powersports stickers :thumbup1:

[ron1950]

love the orange looks better then stock yellow

[ray schrauwen]

looks sweet...i like the geico powersports stickers :thumbup1:

It looks great with the orange too.

Where did those decals come from?

[Doby]

It looks great with the orange too.

Where did those decals come from?

Of course you would think so.....................:olleyes:

[stringfly]

Decals here:
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=17996

[Darin Jordan]

OK... FINALLY got around to doing some prep work for the Miss G for Offshore Racing...

Pretty basic. Fist step, Get the sponsons flat, true, and sharp.

After block sanding just a tad, it is obvious that filler is necessary, so used some Evercoat light body filler and a flat spreader and filled in the ride pad surfaces, then block sanded once it was set. One pass was plenty. They flattened out nicely.

Next step was to sharpen the edges. To do this, material needed to be added. Again, using the same filler, I used some pieces of aluminum angle, that has perfect 90-degee inside corners, to spread the filler along the inside edges of the sponsons. I trimed down a piece of angle to make it small enough to spread the filler on the trailing edges of the sponsons as well.

[Darin Jordan]

Once everything is setup... block sand, block sand, block sand... get the inside edges and the trailing edges as sharp as you can. I didn't spend any time on the outside edges with the filler. I think they are OK as is for now.

[blackcat26]

Welcome back Darin I was wondering when you were gonna take your thread back over!:roflol:

[Darin Jordan]

Once the sanding of the initial filler was done, I did some additional filling with spot filler to really clean things up and sanded this down as well.

With all the sanding done and everything cleaned up, I made sure that the sponsons sat true on my setup board. Inside edges of sponsons should rest cleanly on the setup board with minimal or no daylight under them from the transom forward for a few inches in front of the first vent. Sharp and true, cornering should be rock solid.

I applied a couple of light coats of primer, then a couple of coats of Duplicolor Bright White.

Edges are now very sharp and clean.

[Darin Jordan]

Time to work on the power system, just to add some reliability.

I replaced the motor leads with 5.5mm contacts and the battery leads with 6mm. I take the Y out of the stock ESC, instead Y-ing the batteries together with their own leads (connect them in series).

I replaced the coupler with an Octua coupler and added a thrust washer. To install the coupler, I had to increase the width of the flat on the output shaft with a dremmel. The sloted holes in the motor mount allow it to be slid forward to get the additional clearance for the longer stub.

Add a little velcro to the battery trays, and we're ready to go.

[Jeff Wohlt]

Octura also makes a short version of the 5x150 coupler that will fit easier.

Looks good Darin. Doing about the same on mine. Going to run a Leopard 2200 and 4s and start with a x445

[ron1950]

so will flatening the botoms out stop the bounce or just make it turn better?

[Darin Jordan]

Now... for the RACE report!

We had our final PSFEMBC Race today, so I took the Geico to run in Offshore.

Leaving the strut set in it's factory delivered location, I put on an X645 and a pair or ThunderPower 45C 5000's, and went out for a test run.

About 30-seconds into the run, the boat slowed considerably, then just stopped. When I got it back in, the driveshaft (an Octura replacement shaft I had fitted to it previously, but forgot to mention in my prep comments...) was siezed into the bushings on the strut. I had greesed it VERY well, but apparently the stub was a tad too tight a fit.

I ended up pushing out the bushing and fitting it with a makeshift Speedmaster bushing setup, which wasn't ideal, but would get me through the day.

Headed back out and made a few laps. Boat seemed OK on speed, but scrubs a LOT of speed in the turns.

I moved the strut down slightly, and went out for the first race heat. I nailed the start and ran in the lead the entire heat, but the boat was still not fast enough. I won the heat because of clean driving, but need more speed if this is going to continue.

For the next heat, I moved the strut down and put on a modified X547, with a bunch of cup and pitch added to it, and cut down to 44mm. Boat was faster in the straights, but still not fast enough. REALLY pinned itself down in the turns. Moving the strut down was the wrong answer. It raised the rear, but pushed down the front.

I was running out front, by a good margin, and was trying to run "pivot" turns instead of trying to carve them smoothly. MAN this boat can corner hard!

Unfortuneately, I pivoted it a little too hard at the wrong moment and hit another wake, dropping into the trough and tripping on the outside of the sponson. Boat flipped and I was done.

Good news is, however, that it was sitting out there for 3 laps, and when I recovered it, not a DROP of water had gotten inside. I only used a little piece of tape to hold down the hatch, but otherwise, it was all the secondary hatch. Nicely done!

We would up racing early due to the team having to calculate season points for everyone. While they were tallying up the points, I went back to the bench and put a Prather 230 prop. Tired of messing around. Let's see what this thing can really do.

Boat was QUITE a bit faster with this prop. Still not quite where it needs to be, but way quicker and still cornered on rails. VERY easy to drive too, and rock stable in the turns. A little bit of bouncing still, but very drivable and lots of tuning to do.

After about 2-minutes of running the motor temps were 117-degrees...

[ray schrauwen]

Darin, this may have a close match for the green, either the Lime green or Candy lime green with just the righ base coat.
http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/category.php?sub-id=61500&page=1

I really like their paint, expensive but, nice!

[Darin Jordan]

So... where to go from here.

First... I'm not completely sold on the rudder directly behind the prop. It works, but I think it's really scrubbing off speed in the turns. We discussed it today and Scott Bickford suggested that perhaps moving the rudder back from the prop a bit more might help to get it out of the initial thrust cone of the prop.

I'm considering doing this, or moving the rudder off to the side. Neither NEEDs to be done, I'm just thinking that perhaps that's something to consider for a future tweak.

I'm going to remove the hardware and "V" the bottom surfaces of all hardware the encounters prop spray to allow it to pass by the hardware without introducing additional lift.

Seeing as I've seized the bushings in this strut, I'm either going to replace it with a SpeedMaster or ??? strut, or I'm going to modify this one to correctly accept a SpeedMaster bushing.

Otherwise, I think it's just a matter of getting the balance right, playing with the strut height, and honing in on the right prop/setup combo.

Can't wait for the offshore races next season!!

[ron1950]

so what did the bottom fixing do or suposed to have fixed? just wondering if i should do it or not...my bigest prob is the bounce right now ...i used a 215 prop and ran well but hopped like a rabbit

[Darin Jordan]

so what did the bottom fixing do or suposed to have fixed? just wondering if i should do it or not...my bigest prob is the bounce right now ...i used a 215 prop and ran well but hopped like a rabbit

Cleaning up the bottom makes the boat run more efficiently. It allows the water to cleanly break off the wetted surfaces. Cleaning up the inside of the sponsons and making them sharp enhances the cornering and getting rid of the recesses in the sponson bottoms gets rid of "suction cups" on the ride pads... making them run more consistently and faster.

From what I could tell today, the "bounce" is cleaned up by proper balance with the cells, strut position, and prop... Listen to some of the guys posting here and you'll get there. I had mine bounce a little too, but would switch props and it would subside, so I know that it's setup.

[ron1950]

thanks man.....i can tell ya the stiletto prop doesent help it out on the bounce with strut in factory trim....lowered it and will see what happens tomorrow if weather is good

[Darin Jordan]

Forgot to mention... I also used 2-part expanding foam in the front of the sponsons, which got rid of the little bit of flexing in the tub in this area. I did this BEFORE I started the blueprinting on the bottom. You can see the foam in this pic.

This added a little more weight to the nose, which is why my CG was a little more forward than I would have liked, even with the cells all the way at the back of the boat.

I did, however, talk to someone this evening who runs theirs with the cells at the front of the battery trays (6500 cells at that) and theirs handles great, so it's all in getting the right combination for your running conditions.

[Darin Jordan]

thanks man.....i can tell ya the stiletto prop doesent help it out on the bounce with strut in factory trim....lowered it and will see what happens tomorrow if weather is good

The Prather series props have a good deal of lift, but I ran mine with a Prather 230 on it today and it was pretty good.

I'm wondering if some of the bouncing could be coming from prop spray hitting the bottom of the hardware in the back?? There are some wide flat surfaces there that are in a direct shot of the thrust cone... Hmmmmmm... I'll have to take a look at that.

[blackcat26]

Darin, I thought I would post this in here to help everybody who is following this thread. I made a little mod to the rudder bracket so it's easier to take off. (without having to take the bolts all the way out) Used a bandsaw and a file to get the edges cleaned up. Works good and bolts stay in the bracket instead of on the floor where most stuff ends up in my basement.

[ray schrauwen]

Why not just make a quick release rudder break-away bolt and then just pivot the rudder?

[blackcat26]

I was gonna do that but the rod connector does not like that much movement.

[stringfly]

Miss G was flying today !!!! Love that X642 prop (I think it makes all the difference in battery placement). Just floating on air and air finally got me with a blow out, up, up and away. A wind gust (10 to 15mph today) blew her out and up but she was running just great. All bounce was GONE !!!. Probably in lower 40's but may go with 5s if stock ESC can handle it. Can anyone tell me ?

Some pics of my set up. The rear of the 5000 cased 2s lipos (9.6 ounces,274 grams) right now are 6 1/4" in front of the back of the transom. Just even with the rear of the right battery tray. (left tray is further back). Strut is 3/32 above bracket, level. Rudder bracket is basically flush with top of transom/strut brakets.

Note on the drive strut. I put a straight edge on the rear ride pad (my pads have VERY slight dips or recesses in them so they are really pretty nice and flat, I lucked out I guess) and sight the straight drive shaft. With my strut above the bracket (3/32) the drive shaft is 0 degress up or down inline with the rear ride pad.

I'm still a newbe with all this set up stuff so any comments are welcome but Miss G is working great now.

Stringfly <>+++++

[ray schrauwen]

Is that an all teflon bushing f or your wire drive?

[stringfly]

Yes, teflon bushing that came with boat .

Stringfly <>+++++

[Darin Jordan]

Is that an all teflon bushing f or your wire drive?

Actually... it's just a thrust washer... the bushings in the strut are brass, or appear to be brass anyhow.

[stringfly]

Woops... :biggrin:yes a thrust washer.... nylon maybe ?

Stringfly <>++++

[tman52804]

I removed it.

[stringfly]

Well, I left mine. I do have probably to much gap for it to really work even with the flex shortening while running. Guess the motor bearings can take all the thrust ???? May get a thrust bearing for the motor though. What's everyones thoughts ??

Stringfly <>++++

[ron1950]

ok so do the battery'sgo in the tray or back or front? with em in the back mine hopps bad...next tie out they go in the trays in stock position....please hop be gone lol

[ray schrauwen]

My hull has been stuck in customs for the last week.....:frusty::icon_bs:

[hobie]

Hey everyone. Love this boat! I'm now running on 5s, with a x447 prop. Super smooth and sooo fast!!
When on 4s, I noticed the wires from the ESC were really hot. So I put a 12 gauge piece in between the two deans plugs. Wires were cold, as well as the motor and such. Water is freezing already so I'm sure that helps.
But now that I'm on 5s, the motor wires got hot now, so hot in fact, the de-soldered from a bullet and left the boat dead in the water. I thought I blew the ESC, but it was only mildly warm.
Was about to try another speed control, when I noticed the wire was hanging out!! After re soldering it, it's fine, and not nearly as hot for some reason?? Maybe cause of lack of solder?
Anyway, just reporting some things I've experienced so far. Other than that, this boat ROCKS!
Handles like a dream. My buddy with his bj26 is very jealous now, and looking at getting one of the best boats I've seen!!
Excellent job on this one!!

[Diesel6401]

Hey everyone. Love this boat! I'm now running on 5s, with a x447 prop. Super smooth and sooo fast!!
When on 4s, I noticed the wires from the ESC were really hot. So I put a 12 gauge piece in between the two deans plugs. Wires were cold, as well as the motor and such. Water is freezing already so I'm sure that helps.
But now that I'm on 5s, the motor wires got hot now, so hot in fact, the de-soldered from a bullet and left the boat dead in the water. I thought I blew the ESC, but it was only mildly warm.
Was about to try another speed control, when I noticed the wire was hanging out!! After re soldering it, it's fine, and not nearly as hot for some reason?? Maybe cause of lack of solder?
Anyway, just reporting some things I've experienced so far. Other than that, this boat ROCKS!
Handles like a dream. My buddy with his bj26 is very jealous now, and looking at getting one of the best boats I've seen!!
Excellent job on this one!!

Get rid of the DEANS ASAP, also dump those 3.5mm bullets and I hope you dis-connected the bec on the esc when you ran 5s. Making those changes will make your boat a lot cooler and save your esc. This boat does :rockon2:

[hobie]

I sure did remove the BEC!! It seems to help even on 4s! Really on the deans? What should i use instead? Traxxas ones? As far as the bullets, 6.5mm ones?
Had a blow over an hour ago, well a few of them, small crack in the hull now. :( I wondered why i had water in the hull? Also just noticed the stuffing tube going in to the hull also is about to come off. A little work is needed now

[Diesel6401]

I sure did remove the BEC!! It seems to help even on 4s! Really on the deans? What should i use instead? Traxxas ones? As far as the bullets, 6.5mm ones?
Had a blow over an hour ago, well a few of them, small crack in the hull now. :( I wondered why i had water in the hull? Also just noticed the stuffing tube going in to the hull also is about to come off. A little work is needed now

100% on the deans MUST B GONE, then after you take them off throw them in the trash unless you have some planes or cars laying around. I use them on planes that about it. I use 5.5mm on EVERYTHING in my boats. 6.5 will work as well

[hobie]

100% on the deans MUST B GONE, then after you take them off throw them in the trash unless you have some planes or cars laying around. I use them on planes that about it. I use 5.5mm on EVERYTHING in my boats. 6.5 will work as well

Oh, so you just use the bullets on everything, motor & batteries to speed control also?

[Diesel6401]

Oh, so you just use the bullets on everything, motor & batteries to speed control also?

YUP every wire on the esc, battery, motor gets a 5.5 on it. That's just me.

[hobie]

Sweet! Thanks, i know what I'm doing tomorrow.
i will let you know how i make out with it

[blackcat26]

Hey Darin, I was thinking about what you were saying about the rudder bracket may be causing lift from prop wash today and you may be right. I noticed that I can still get the "wa wa" at certain speeds (Around 30 or so) A little faster and it goes away. Could it be going away because of the increased wind speed from going 50 instead of mid thirties, shortening the roostertail? Also when I get off throttle from top speed the rear kinda acts strange. Maybe this is why it likes a little more depth of strut???

[stringfly]

If when running 5s you need to disconnect the bec (disable) then do you use a onboard receiver pack ????:huh::huh:

Stringfly <>++++

[hobie]

If when running 5s you need to disconnect the bec (disable) then do you use a onboard receiver pack ????:huh::huh:

Stringfly <>++++

Yes, onboard reciever pack.
I am using a 850mah life pack. The 6.6 volt lipos. Works awesome. Even on 4s it seems to help it out a bit

[ray schrauwen]

Darin, how long is the hardware from transom to end of rudder? please, thanks!

[hobie]

Darin, how long is the hardware from transom to end of rudder? please, thanks!

Hey, just grabbed my tape measure... If my eyes are correct, it looks like 4 1/8" or 103mm.

[ron1950]

Just got my 642 back from chuck. Wow u can cut a stake with it. Nice Also. What is the bec you are talking about? Is everyone using the 642 or the 445 with 4 cell?

[ray schrauwen]

Hey, just grabbed my tape measure... If my eyes are correct, it looks like 4 1/8" or 103mm.

Thanks buddy!

I just checked the inline hardware I have and its a 1/4" shorter... Should be O.k. I hope if not I can just buy the PB hardware after.

Great hull only! I'f I didn't have everything already would have enjoyed the RTR also, really nicely built.:bowdown:

[Darin Jordan]

Thanks buddy!

I just checked the inline hardware I have and its a 1/4" shorter... Should be O.k. I hope if not I can just buy the PB hardware after.

Great hull only! I'f I didn't have everything already would have enjoyed the RTR also, really nicely built.:bowdown:

Ray... can you post a picture of your inline hardware?

I'm going to try offsetting the rudder on mine to see what the effect is. I think it will scrub less speeds in the turns, and my eliminate the "bouncing" that people are seeing, but I have to try it to see.

[ray schrauwen]

It's the hor inline hardware just drilled out and Lead teflon pressed in...

I had to drill the bracket holes out a bit with a 9/64 drill but, it looks clean, not butchered. I'll post some ppictures when I install more stuff...

I hear you on the inline hardware, always room for improvements, mods...:iagree:

[Darin Jordan]

I hear you on the inline hardware, always room for improvements, mods...:iagree:


I think I have a way figured out to accomplish the rudder offset using all the stock pieces, with minimal mods... my favorite kind of mods!

[Diesel6401]

Just got my 642 back from chuck. Wow u can cut a stake with it. Nice Also. What is the bec you are talking about? Is everyone using the 642 or the 445 with 4 cell?

Yea I have used a x642 on it with 4 cell. Ran very nice, my video shows both 4s and 5s runs on a x642. The bec is the red wire on the lead that plugs into the rx and supplied the rx with power. Simply pull it out and run a seperate pack.

[ray schrauwen]

I think I have a way figured out to accomplish the rudder offset using all the stock pieces, with minimal mods... my favorite kind of mods!

I was thinking about that too Darin. Maybe some stand off's ??

[Jeff Wohlt]

Odd.... my HOR cat does not bounce with inline rudder. Not sure that is really an issue but every boat is diiferent.

[ray schrauwen]

Could be a ratio of hull length vs rudder length..., the rudder on Miss G is the same size as HOR but, it's hull is shorter. I don't know this theory, I'm just a suposin'

[Darin Jordan]

I decided to test a theory, so I've modified my MG to have an offset rudder, using the stock pieces, two spacers, and two long 10-32 Titanium bolts I happened to have.

Basically, I drilled out the stock holes on the right side strut bracket, and center piece, to 13/64", and drilled and tapped the left bracket to 10-32" threads.

I then cut the rudder standoff as shown, and used the extra piece as a spacer in the strut bracket to help it maintain it's rigidity.

Opened up the holes in the rudder bracket and countersunk them, and bolted it all together. Bent up the stock rudder linkage to fit. Solid and fully funtional. Doesn't currently allow for adding/removing castor from the rudder, but for now it'll work.

I'll try to get out this weekend and give it a test to see if it's better, worse, or no difference.

I suspect that the HOR hull is quite a bit different design. Is it fully stepped? If so, it's not the same at all.

I'll let you know how this works out. If it works, then I'll clean up the spacers and polish them, and likely through-bolt the bolts by getting longer bolts so I can adjust the rudder castor.

[Darin Jordan]

A couple more shots....

[johnf]

Nice work Darin. curious to see how the boat responds.

[ray schrauwen]

How long are the stand-off's? Nice, exactly what I was thunkin'

How thick, diameter is the rod? thks...

[Darin Jordan]

How long are the stand-off's? Nice, exactly what I was thunkin'

How thick, diameter is the rod? thks...

Ray... they are about 1.4" long... Not sure the OD... Large enough to fit over some 10-32 bolts. I don't think they need to be that large, as long as they have enough mounting area on the ends to support the rudder without allowing it to flex. This setup on mine is rock solid... Had to reverse the servo at the radio, as I moved the steering arm to the other side of the rudder.

[mx174k]

A couple more shots....

I noticed you have a three blade prop on.Can you give me any feedback on it.

[Darin Jordan]

I noticed you have a three blade prop on.Can you give me any feedback on it.

It's just on there as a mock up to test rudder clearance. That's an X450/3. Wouldn't recommend that one just yet... ;)

[ray schrauwen]

x450 2 blade perhaps...

[Darin Jordan]

x450 2 blade perhaps...

For racing... the motor seems to handle the X447/R I use on my 1/10th scale just fine, so perhaps. But be careful and work your way up there.

[Darin Jordan]

Tested the MG with the offset rudder conversion today... WOW! Maintains it's speed in the turns, and seems to run very smoothly in the straights. Used and X447 for this video clip, with the strut slightly above the sponson bottoms. Still needs some tweaking, but I think that taking the time to offset the rudder is DEFINITELY a worthwhile mod, especially since you can do it with the stock pieces.

I think I may try mounting a second rudder on the left side and see how it works with duals. Likely to lose some due to drag, but still might be worth trying. Simple to do. Just going to fab up two more equal spacers, and use 10-32 all-thread all the way through both sides, then tie the two together using a tie-rod.

Here is a video clip I shot while testing it today. Forgive the crappy tracking. I was alone, so I used a microcamera mounted on the foot of my transmitter and tried to point it at the boat. Not used to tracking the boat that way, so I missed a couple of times.

wQRW2jlEWPk

[Brushless55]

Awesome job Darin!
could this be a Proboat upgrade coming soon?

[Darin Jordan]

Awesome job Darin!
could this be a Proboat upgrade coming soon?

We'll see. :spy:

[Darin Jordan]

Made a quick update to the rudder mounting. Replaced the titanium countersunk screws with some 3" Stainless 10-32 screws with stainless nylock nuts, and through bolted the entire assembly. It's totally solid now, and now allows the rudder castor to be adjusted. Polished up the spacers while I was at it.

[bigpapa]

looks good darin great wk as usual

[bigpapa]

added 5.5 bullets as we talked about tweeked strut a little more will try to test after i get off have a great tuesday

[airman66285]

Tested the MG with the offset rudder conversion today... WOW! Maintains it's speed in the turns, and seems to run very smoothly in the straights. Used and X447 for this video clip, with the strut slightly above the sponson bottoms. Still needs some tweaking, but I think that taking the time to offset the rudder is DEFINITELY a worthwhile mod, especially since you can do it with the stock pieces.

I think I may try mounting a second rudder on the left side and see how it works with duals. Likely to lose some due to drag, but still might be worth trying. Simple to do. Just going to fab up two more equal spacers, and use 10-32 all-thread all the way through both sides, then tie the two together using a tie-rod.

Here is a video clip I shot while testing it today. Forgive the crappy tracking. I was alone, so I used a microcamera mounted on the foot of my transmitter and tried to point it at the boat. Not used to tracking the boat that way, so I missed a couple of times.

wQRW2jlEWPk

Darin,

Did the offset rudder cure your bouncing problems? I must be lucky because mine does not bounce at all and I am running everything bone stock except for the x642 prop. I have read twice now that you stated you are confident that the MG can do mid to high forties with the stock power system - do you have any suggestions on how to make her boogie that fast? So far, my top speed is 39.8mph. I want to go fast but I want her stable and I don't want to risk blowing anything up - I had enough of that garbage with the Blackjack. I guess I am happy with the way she runs now but if there are some easy mods to make then I am all for it.

[Darin Jordan]

--- do you have any suggestions on how to make her boogie that fast? So far, my top speed is 39.8mph. I want to go fast but I want her stable and I don't want to risk blowing anything up - I had enough of that garbage with the Blackjack. I guess I am happy with the way she runs now but if there are some easy mods to make then I am all for it.

First... you have to clean up the bottom. Get it flat and all the edges sharp... razor sharp. Especially the trailing edges.

Good batteries... I use 45C ThunderPowers currently.

And a good prop. An X642 is a good prop and the speeds you are achieving are great RTR speeds. Good Runtime, etc.

To go faster, you have to prop up. These 6-pole, lower RPM setups need pitch to go faster. More blade area may help as well. The X642 has 2.638" pitch. By way of comparison, my OPC prop on my Stiletto with the same power system measures 4.0" pitch.

Something like a Prather 230 has 2.992", and gives more speed.

There are likely some ABC props, 2-blade or 3, that might also work well. Or, you can start adding pitch to your existing prop. That will get you part way there. I think ultimately, you'll want to start playing with something with more base pitch to start with, and you'll have to be careful to watch temps. Strut heights will also need to be adjusted as you make changes.

I didn't say it was going to be a bolt-on process, but I do think that mid-40's should be no problem, and closing in on 50 should be possible. Just going to depend on how hard you are willing to push things, and how much attention to detail you are willing to give.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin,

Did the offset rudder cure your bouncing problems?

I didn't have much of a "bouncing problem" either. I think with the rudder in the center, it's more sensitive to tuning. I moved it more to get it out of the line of thrust, especially in the turns.

Some work might be done, as well, in trimming up the rudder shorter and shorter until the handling goes away. It may be longer than it ultimately needs to be, but there is really only one way to find that out, and unfortunatly, it involves sacrificing a rudder blade to find out.

I'm getting some extra blades, however, and will be playing around with this. Getting 1/2" of rudder out of the water is likely good for another 1-2 mph, based on past experience...

[airman66285]

First... you have to clean up the bottom. Get it flat and all the edges sharp... razor sharp. Especially the trailing edges.

Good batteries... I use 45C ThunderPowers currently.

And a good prop. An X642 is a good prop and the speeds you are achieving are great RTR speeds. Good Runtime, etc.

To go faster, you have to prop up. These 6-pole, lower RPM setups need pitch to go faster. More blade area may help as well. The X642 has 2.638" pitch. By way of comparison, my OPC prop on my Stiletto with the same power system measures 4.0" pitch.

Something like a Prather 230 has 2.992", and gives more speed.

There are likely some ABC props, 2-blade or 3, that might also work well. Or, you can start adding pitch to your existing prop. That will get you part way there. I think ultimately, you'll want to start playing with something with more base pitch to start with, and you'll have to be careful to watch temps. Strut heights will also need to be adjusted as you make changes.

I didn't say it was going to be a bolt-on process, but I do think that mid-40's should be no problem, and closing in on 50 should be possible. Just going to depend on how hard you are willing to push things, and how much attention to detail you are willing to give.

Thank you Darin,

That is outstanding and logical advice. I am not going to touch the hull because I am a horrible painter - CADD is what I make a living at so the hull mods are out. I will try a little larger prop and that is about it. I am not going to go bleeding edge on this gorgeous boat - I want reliability first and speed second. Please let me know if you need any custom 3D modeling done - I do it for a living and can bang designs out pretty quick. Thanks again for your insight, my friend!

[Diesel6401]

Well dropped the proboat 1800kv motor (stileto) in the MG today. On a x642 on 4s read 40.1mph, first run with stock power on that prop and voltage was 36mph. Bounce was still their so I brought it in to sure untaped it, moved the batts back just a little bit further aft retaped it and it settled it down. Bounce still their but no where near to the first run. I stayed WOT pretty much the whole time taking tight left/right turns, boat never got out of shape always seems calm and just ran so well. After a 3 minute run esc was 129 and motor was 117. Telemetry and range is working like a charm. I really enjoy being able to look at my radio and see the esc temp with just a glance. I still have not set up the rpm function as of yet. Still working on that.

[mmmdowning]

I'm new here, with my first boat being a MISS Geico. I'm really learning allot on here about upgrades. I've been flying R/C planes for about 25yrs now and would like to do the boats.

Darin are you still going to try the dual rudders? Keep up the great mods.

Marty

[LiPo Power]

Darin
What is the good place to get this offset mounts?
Also, could you please make a picture of your rudder mod from the top with measurements?
I was trying to find how fare back is your rudder vs. your prop.
Thanks
Robert







Made a quick update to the rudder mounting. Replaced the titanium countersunk screws with some 3" Stainless 10-32 screws with stainless nylock nuts, and through bolted the entire assembly. It's totally solid now, and now allows the rudder castor to be adjusted. Polished up the spacers while I was at it.

[tiqueman]

Darin
What is the good place to get this offset mounts?
Also, could you please make a picture of your rudder mod from the top with measurements?
I was trying to find how fare back is your rudder vs. your prop.
Thanks
Robert

Robert, I believe Darin fabricated them himself. You could also get the Octura offsets here on OSE.


I'm new here, with my first boat being a MISS Geico. I'm really learning allot on here about upgrades. I've been flying R/C planes for about 25yrs now and would like to do the boats.

Darin are you still going to try the dual rudders? Keep up the great mods.

Marty

Welcome Marty. For your first boat, you got a fantastic one. :thumbup1: Even w/ no mods and a little tweaking, youll have a blast with it. I have quite a few RTR boats and this by far is the best.

I just did the offset mount using the Octura offsets. Havnt run it yet as its dark.. and raining, but hope to turn some laps in the am.

[Boomer]

You can also get a complete kit from Kintec Racing. I just got a 2nd generation off-set bracket with the bottom section removed. Very nice installation. You can contact them at kintecracing@msn.com
Boomer

[tiqueman]

Just got in from some pretty intensive dialing and I came to a conclusion. 2 sets of batteries and almost 2 hours later... THE INLINE RUDDER HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH BOUNCING!!!! It does however help greatly in the turns. I moved batteries at 1/4" increments from 2 inches past the front of the trays to touching the transom. I moved the strut from as low and negative & positive as I could get it at 1/16 increments to as high and neg/ pos as I could get it. Funny thing is.. in ALL scenarios, it never really rode different. It corned different and took off at different bow angles.. but once on a plane, it was all about the same. :ThumbsDown01:

[Darin Jordan]

Just got in from some pretty intensive dialing and I came to a conclusion. 2 sets of batteries and almost 2 hours later... THE INLINE RUDDER HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH BOUNCING!!!!


I've been trying to tell people that... it's all about getting the setup right... Takes some time.



Funny thing is.. in ALL scenarios, it never really rode different. It corned different and took off at different bow angles.. but once on a plane, it was all about the same. :ThumbsDown01:

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing?? The boat is extremely stable and easy to drive, and isn't as "finicky" as some other boats when it comes to weight balance, etc...

That being said.... it's also, basically, "underpowered"... it's a race boat with a sport boating power system. If you put some real power to it, I have a feeling you may find those adjustments start coming more into play.

[Boomer]

That is weird. There must be something unique about your MG for it not to response to any of your adjustments. I too have played around with battery placement, and shaft angle adjustments, and found a noticeable differences in the trim of the boat with the different battery positions. If they were to far in one direction or another, the boat would be either too loose, or bow heavy.

The boat has enough power to attain full plain regardless of the battery location, but if I put the batteries to far forward, and if it had diving planes on it, the darn thing might submerge. Perhaps I exaggerate, but just to make a point.

I don't see huge differences with shaft adjustments at this point, but I have not done but two changes. I did notice a slight trim change.

For my first tests, I used an original version, Kintec Racing ruddder offset kit, which improved the boats ride, but at the expense of adding lots of drag at lower speeds, and in turns, not to mention the dragging portion of the bracket creating a water spout or geyser style rooster tail until the boat achieved full plane. Actually, it looked kind of cool :cool2:

I just received and installed the next generation Kintec bracket with the lower part of the bracket machined out. I am sure that will make marked improvement across the board. I will know for sure this weekend, if the weather permits testing. (see the pictue below)

It is interesting how your boat is able to defy physics, very strange. It might be interesting to weight it, and compare that to the weight of other MGs. Maybe your boat has a heavier lay-up?? A heavier boat might influence the boats behavior to the point that it is not sensitive to the changes you made. Just trying to understand why it did not respond to the changes you made??

Other than running a blue printed X 642 prop, my MG is stock with a pair of 2S 5000mAh 30C for power. With the winter coming, I hope to take the time to blue print the bottom of the hull. I have located an auto paint store that will match the paint for me, so I can touch up any body work that may be necessary to true up the bottom, and sharpen the edges. Not sure if that will make a big difference but, it is the right thing to do. One's bottom should be true, right?:thumbup1:

Thanks for all the time you invested in your tests!
Boomer

[tiqueman]

I've been trying to tell people that... it's all about getting the setup right... Takes some time.




I'm not sure how this is a bad thing?? The boat is extremely stable and easy to drive, and isn't as "finicky" as some other boats when it comes to weight balance, etc...

That being said.... it's also, basically, "underpowered"... it's a race boat with a sport boating power system. If you put some real power to it, I have a feeling you may find those adjustments start coming more into play.

Im not at all upset or bashing on the boat Darin. I hope it didnt come out that way. I planned on having to do some tweaking, I guess my expectations of the offset were just too high with what a lot of folks were saying. I still think its one of the best.. or the best handling cat I have. I just got to get it to settle down.


That is weird. There must be something unique about your MG for it not to response to any of your adjustments. I too have played around with battery placement, and shaft angle adjustments, and found a noticeable differences in the trim of the boat with the different battery positions. If they were to far in one direction or another, the boat would be either too loose, or bow heavy.

The boat has enough power to attain full plain regardless of the battery location, but if I put the batteries to far forward, and if it had diving planes on it, the darn thing might submerge. Perhaps I exaggerate, but just to make a point.

I don't see huge differences with shaft adjustments at this point, but I have not done but two changes. I did notice a slight trim change.

For my first tests, I used an original version, Kintec Racing ruddder offset kit, which improved the boats ride, but at the expense of adding lots of drag at lower speeds, and in turns, not to mention the dragging portion of the bracket creating a water spout or geyser style rooster tail until the boat achieved full plane. Actually, it looked kind of cool :cool2:

I just received and installed the next generation Kintec bracket with the lower part of the bracket machined out. I am sure that will make marked improvement across the board. I will know for sure this weekend, if the weather permits testing. (see the pictue below)

It is interesting how your boat is able to defy physics, very strange. It might be interesting to weight it, and compare that to the weight of other MGs. Maybe your boat has a heavier lay-up?? A heavier boat might influence the boats behavior to the point that it is not sensitive to the changes you made. Just trying to understand why it did not respond to the changes you made??

Other than running a blue printed X 642 prop, my MG is stock with a pair of 2S 5000mAh 30C for power. With the winter coming, I hope to take the time to blue print the bottom of the hull. I have located an auto paint store that will match the paint for me, so I can touch up any body work that may be necessary to true up the bottom, and sharpen the edges. Not sure if that will make a big difference but, it is the right thing to do. One's bottom should be true, right?:thumbup1:

Thanks for all the time you invested in your tests!
Boomer

Its not that changes had no effect. It did ride more bow heavy w/ batts forwadr vs really nosing up w/ them all the way back. What didnt change was its behavior in a straight line. It always bounced the same.

[Darin Jordan]

Im not at all upset or bashing on the boat Darin. I hope it didnt come out that way. I planned on having to do some tweaking, I guess my expectations of the offset were just too high with what a lot of folks were saying.

OK, I get it... No worries...

The biggest benefit I've found of moving the rudder off to the side and out of the prop thrust was the boats ability to maintain it's speed through the turns. I don't think it's any faster in the straights, but when you turn a rudder that large in the middle of the prop thrust, it's going to scrub some speed in my opinion. I think the offset rudder does make the boat easier to tune as well. Needs more input, however, to turn to the left now...

[Boomer]

Ah........... On my last runs with the original Kintec bracket, most of the bounce was eliminated. It still has a little at the top end. I attribute that to it not having the power to carry the bow. If I put more power in there, I am pretty sure the boat will carrying the bow without any bounce.
Another option is a different prop that has more lift. If you watch videos of the real race boats, while they have all the power in the world, they bounce too. Some of that is due to the waves, but even on glass, their bows lift and fall. If you have ever seen really fast drag boats, you'd see that they take a "set" once on plane, and if it doesn't crash, will run throught the 1/4 mile almost fully out of the water. That is pure HP. I have been watching some of the videos of Miss G, and observe that the more powerful set ups run smoother than the ones closer to stock power. Thus my conclusion.

Hey, it's all fun! Cool boat.
Boomer










Thanks for the clarification.
Boomer

[ron1950]

i am liking the ul1 in a geigo more all the time....just dont have 60 bucks to get one right now lol.....its my next project,,..question....will the ul1 burn up my 45a proboat esc or do i need to get the 60amper? the stiletto motor in it right now runs cool and all but not enough power....

[airman66285]

Ah........... On my last runs with the original Kintec bracket, most of the bounce was eliminated. It still has a little at the top end. I attribute that to it not having the power to carry the bow. If I put more power in there, I am pretty sure the boat will carrying the bow without any bounce.
Another option is a different prop that has more lift. If you watch videos of the real race boats, while they have all the power in the world, they bounce too. Some of that is due to the waves, but even on glass, their bows lift and fall. If you have ever seen really fast drag boats, you'd see that they take a "set" once on plane, and if it doesn't crash, will run throught the 1/4 mile almost fully out of the water. That is pure HP. I have been watching some of the videos of Miss G, and observe that the more powerful set ups run smoother than the ones closer to stock power. Thus my conclusion.

Hey, it's all fun! Cool boat.
Boomer









Thanks for the clarification.
Boomer

Boomer,

Before I added the modified Kintec bracket, I should have ran my MG with the new Leopard 2000kV motor and stock rudder set-up to establish a better baseline for the bouncing problem. Right out of the gate I ran the boat with the modified Kintec bracket and Leopard motor and there was absolutely no bounce - just a very fast cat! My lake is now ice so my fun is over until spring. It will be great if I can use the stock rudder with the Leopard 2000kV motor and not have any bounce because I think the offset rudder looks gay on a cat.

[Darin Jordan]

i am liking the ul1 in a geigo more all the time....just dont have 60 bucks to get one right now lol.....its my next project,,..question....will the ul1 burn up my 45a proboat esc or do i need to get the 60amper? the stiletto motor in it right now runs cool and all but not enough power....

I've tested the 2030 KV motor in the MG with an EagleTree, and using the stock Stiletto prop (Prather 215... same as the plastic MG prop, only stainless).... It's pulling well above 60A average, with regular trips above 90Amps... I'd ESC and prop accordingly...

I sure wish people would get out of the thinking that more KV means more power... that's simply not the case. All else being equal (can size, stator/rotor weight/size, etc.) the more KV you have, the less torque you have to work with. RPMs go up, prop size (pitch) has to go down. The net is that you end up with similar speeds.

Handling might be improved, or affected in some way, by the difference, due to prop sizes, etc., but, in general, these motors have a certain amount of power to give. Some give it through RPMs, others through torque. The prop choice is what determines the final speed.

The 1500KV motor at 14.8V might require a 2.7" pitch prop to achieve a speed of 45mph... the 2030 motor will only need a 1.97" pitch prop to do the same speed.

If the boat can handle the larger props, then the 1500KV motor, in theory, might get 50mph using a 2.97" pitch prop, etc...

Overall watts used, however, are likely going to be pretty similar, so it's a matter of matching the prop to the application, regardless of which motor you are choosing. I think people would really go a long ways to spend some time working and tinkering on their own props. You'd be shocked at how much more performance can be had by some simple tweaks to the prop... It is, after all, the gearing and "traction/grip" (tires) for your application.

[tiqueman]

Definitely a cool boat indeed. Ive got mine a littel better out on the next trial of tuning, but still not there. I took the bottom bolt out of the rudder and kicked it back a bit.. trying to get the lead edge perp to the water as the boat is on motion. Seemed to help a very small amount. Certainly at its best so far but still has quite a bounce. Ive seen some vids on here of it running a lot more tru. I checked the sponsons for hook. They are actually pretty good. Id say a 32nd or less hook, and about half that side to side. waiting for another set to peak out and Ill get her back out and continue.

Darin, as for you suggesstion on adding power. Usually Id go for that anyday of the week. But, I want to keep it elegible for Spec Offshore. Perhaps the 1800KV PB motor? Or the UL-1? would be a better choice. What are your and others thoughts?

[tiqueman]

Ha you posted as I was typing... good read there and makes sense. So to stay in its class I may be better off just keepin on the tweaking w/ what I have?

PS, prop I am trying to tune on is a 642, sharpened, balanced, detongued and very slightly cupped. I went to a sharpened and balanced only 442 on my last outing for the last pass to see if it settled it anymore and it did not.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, as for you suggesstion on adding power. Usually Id go for that anyday of the week. But, I want to keep it elegible for Spec Offshore. Perhaps the 1800KV PB motor? Or the UL-1? would be a better choice. What are your and others thoughts?


Well... first off... moving the rudder FORWARD (bottom of rudder) will have the affect of lifting the bow in the turns. I've done this on mine and I believe it helps.

As for motors... For Offshore, It's my opinion that the UL1 motor will eat up too many mAh to make the 4-minutes distance... but I do know that there are guys running this setup and winning National level races with it.

I'd personally opt for the 1800KV motor. Good combo of torque and RPMs... But... testing has only begun. We'll have to see what people come up with. :rockon2:

[tiqueman]

I think the offset rudder looks gay on a cat.

:rofl: That is great.. and so tru in my book. Unfortunatley/ fortunatley though, the offset for carrying speed thru a turn is worth it on this set up.

[tiqueman]

Well... first off... moving the rudder FORWARD (bottom of rudder) will have the affect of lifting the bow in the turns. I've done this on mine and I believe it helps.

As for motors... For Offshore, It's my opinion that the UL1 motor will eat up too many mAh to make the 4-minutes distance... but I do know that there are guys running this setup and winning National level races with it.

I'd personally opt for the 1800KV motor. Good combo of torque and RPMs... But... testing has only begun. We'll have to see what people come up with. :rockon2:

Yup I learned pulling the lead lower edge forward (or tucking it in as I refer to it) lifts the bow and helps plant the rear in corners on one of my big gas cats. It was recommended to me at the races this past weekend to move the lower edge back to try and help square it to the water while running in a straight line. The theory sounded right to me. Since I was dealing w/ a straight line issue and not cornering I figured what the heck

[Darin Jordan]

PS, prop I am trying to tune on is a 642, sharpened, balanced, detongued and very slightly cupped. I went to a sharpened and balanced only 442 on my last outing for the last pass to see if it settled it anymore and it did not.

I would work on an X642 to start with... it's 2.64" pitch... With the stock setup, that theoretically should be good for about 43mph, depending on how you calculate slip (I'm figuring around 20%) and how much Voltage your batteries have under load (I'm assuming about 15 Volts, so I'm being generous, or figuring early in the run)...

If you pitch that X642 up to give it 3" of pitch, it should give you around 47mph.

My guess is that the power system can handle MUCH more than that. My other guess is that I'm being too generous on the amount of "slip" in the average, unworked prop, so speeds are likely listed as a little high...

A Grim 42x55, pitched up to around 3.7" (Typical UL-1 powered P-OPC Tunnel prop), and using a 25% slip, pencils out to around 55mph... Right about what the said OPC is capable of under ideal conditions...

Of course... a higher KV motor wouldn't require some of the prop work, perhaps, and a standard 42x55 (2.17" pitch) at 26000 RPM (about what a loaded UL1 motor might provide) would be good for 40.2mph... Might be working harder (building more heat) to make that happen, however. Only testing would tell for sure.

[mike c]

hey guys its mike. just got my access so this is my first post. i just obtained a pb widowmaker, i have lots of experience with rc cars and am always trying to make them go too fast. i am ok with a perfect balance of handaling and speed but would like more speed than the widowmaker hull can take. i really like the miss geico brushless 29. my questions are: does this boat have alot of annoying probs like the widowmaker. and if so what do you run into that needs addressed. thanx:help:

[LiPo Power]

Hi Darin
Could you please make a picture of your rudder mod from the top with measurements?
I was trying to find how fare back is your rudder vs. your prop.
Thanks
Robert

[Diesel6401]

hey guys its mike. just got my access so this is my first post. i just obtained a pb widowmaker, i have lots of experience with rc cars and am always trying to make them go too fast. i am ok with a perfect balance of handaling and speed but would like more speed than the widowmaker hull can take. i really like the miss geico brushless 29. my questions are: does this boat have alot of annoying probs like the widowmaker. and if so what do you run into that needs addressed. thanx:help:

Widowmakers are nightmares. This boat is night and day compared to the WM. You will be 100% happy with a MG over a WM, not even a comparison! Your moving from a Chevy Aveo to a Cadilliac CTS V-series (no offense to those that drive aveo's :doh:)

[Darin Jordan]

Hi Darin
Could you please make a picture of your rudder mod from the top with measurements?
I was trying to find how fare back is your rudder vs. your prop.
Thanks
Robert

Robert... I'll see what I can do, but it's basically just slightly aft of the drive-dog. I'd have preferred for the leading edge to be even with the drive-dog, but it seems to work where it is. I'll see if I can take a pic tonight.

[LiPo Power]

Great, thanks!
Robert






Robert... I'll see what I can do, but it's basically just slightly aft of the drive-dog. I'd have preferred for the leading edge to be even with the drive-dog, but it seems to work where it is. I'll see if I can take a pic tonight.

[mike c]

Widowmakers are nightmares. This boat is night and day compared to the WM. You will be 100% happy with a MG over a WM, not even a comparison! Your moving from a Chevy Aveo to a Cadilliac CTS V-series (no offense to those that drive aveo's :doh:)

thanx man thats what i was hoping for just wanted to hear b 4 i pull the purchase trigger:Peace_Sign:

[tiqueman]

More testing today and feel like Im getting somewhere. I started w/ the strut neutral and about 1/2 below the bottom of the hull. Batteries were half inch off the back of the trays. Bounce bounce bonce. I left the batteries alone for all of the adjustment. I angled the strut down slightly, then up slightly.. bounce bounce bounce. I tried lowering the strut. And again went thru 2 different up angles and 2 different down, including neutral.. bounce bounce bounce. I then started slowly adjusting it higher and higher, again using all angles and it slooooowly began showing improvement. It seemed a slight positive and higher depth is what it wanted. I moved it up to clear by thousandths of the bracket and had the best run yet. However after bringing it in, she slipped a tad and the prop contacted the bracket just slightly. I re-set it, tweaked the prop and then I tried messing w/ the rudder angle. I tucked it forward, it seems to have brought the bow down in the straights, BUT, the bounce was almost gone. I pulled it back out just a bit and runing w/ the wind in about a 1/4" to 1/2" chop, light breeze, no bounce at all. Running into the wind she bounces minimally. My strut is angle slightly up and as high as it can go before the prop (642) contacts the strut bracket. Darin had mentioned that some of the struts were mounted at the bottom and caused issues w/ prop clearance. I feel I need to go a smidgen higher, but, My strut is one that is mounted at the bottom of the transom. Im going to remove part of the tail of the bracket to see if I can get enough clearance and if it is in fact my resolution before I go removing the bracket and drilling new holes in my pretty boat. I actually feel like Im getting somewhere.

Most importantly as Darin said, the strut brackets on these boats apperently arent all mounted in the same location. I feel its important in the "helping of others" that we get back to refering to the strut angle as compared to the bottom of the boat while sitting on a flat surface and not the "top of the strut" like we somehow got into on this.

Darin, thanks for your help in this set up. I was told by a reputable racer about pulling the rudder out.... DEFINITLEY not the thing to do. Since it was cornering wonderfully to begin with, I never thought to try tucking it in.... Thanks! :hug1:


Since this is more about bouncing and not the offset, my following test result will only be in this forum.

[tiqueman]

thanx man thats what i was hoping for just wanted to hear b 4 i pull the purchase trigger:Peace_Sign:

Yeah Mike, as for off the shelf RTR boats.. you wont find a more bad a$$ one. It is fantastic.. Yeah it has a tiny hic-up or two, but NOTHING like the issues Ive had w/ other rts. And at max your looking at $10.00 to do upgrades, rather than entire hardware packages, escs/ motors etc etc. Proboat and Darin just about hit this one sqaure on the head for a perfect boat. Although..as for a RTR.. I think they did. Get one, you wont regret it!

[mike c]

Yeah Mike, as for off the shelf RTR boats.. you wont find a more bad a$$ one. It is fantastic.. Yeah it has a tiny hic-up or two, but NOTHING like the issues Ive had w/ other rts. And at max your looking at $10.00 to do upgrades, rather than entire hardware packages, escs/ motors etc etc. Proboat and Darin just about hit this one sqaure on the head for a perfect boat. Although..as for a RTR.. I think they did. Get one, you wont regret it!

thanx i just whent to the river on my lunch break, no rescue boat, cold water and flipped the widow over again 4 feet from shore. lucky though that with the 30c venom lipo the prop made enough wind to slowly push it to shore. i think i am finished with this thing.:ThumbsDown01:

[tiqueman]

Testing at a stand still. She's dry docked. I pulled the shaft to grease it as I do at least every other run, usually after every run, and its about to be in two. It is the correct wind. LHS is out of 3/16 - .150 stubs... Ive got abundant quantities of .150 flex, but no stubs... so, Im waitng now for my OSE order to arrive sometime next week. :ThumbsDown01:

[ron1950]

scott where was it breaking anyway? just courious....

[tiqueman]

About 1/8" from where it connects into the stub shaft. I ended up unsoldering a stub off another boat , assembled a new shaft and got it back together for more testing tomorrow :smile:

[Darin Jordan]

Just in case you guys are curious... here is an EagleTree graph I got yesterday while doing some testing at the lake... The setup was:

Motor: Stock ProBoat 1500KV
ESC: Stock ProBoat 45A
Prop: Stock ProBoat Stiletto Stainless (Prather 215 style)
Battery: 4S1P ThunderPower 45C 5000

This is a sample of around 6-seconds of a long straight run...

I had an airspeed sensor installed, but the darn thing doesn't seem to be working... I think the new Pitot style tube they have just has too small an opening to really register correctly, so I've modified it and have it working better at home. I'll give it another try. Anyone try the GPS module?? Maybe it would work better??

In the meantime, you can see where the stock setup is as far as Amps, RPMs, etc, under load.

I will hopefully get some more data by the end of the weekend. My intent was to run through a series of props and record the data, but the weather around here is making that difficult, and I didn't have the controlled conditions I needed to really get it right (chargers setup, etc.,)... I'll see what I can do....

[tiqueman]

Awesome info Darin. I wondered if in fact the Amps stayed under 45. I see it averaged 47. I was going to log my 642 to see where it was. But I want to get it all trimmed out first. I think its close. :Praying:

Out of curiosity, where is your strut bracket mounted on the transom. Mine is such that the bottom of the bracket is about 1/8" from the bottom of the transom.

[Darin Jordan]

Out of curiosity, where is your strut bracket mounted on the transom. Mine is such that the bottom of the bracket is about 1/8" from the bottom of the transom.

Same as yours... ALL of the first sets of these were that way... I'm not sure if they've been adjusted yet.

Another thing I'd like to do one of these days is to mill off the last 1/2" or so of the strut bracket. It hangs out over the prop a little too far, in my opinion, on the smaller (shorter-hub'd) props...

[tiqueman]

Same as yours... ALL of the first sets of these were that way... I'm not sure if they've been adjusted yet.

Another thing I'd like to do one of these days is to mill off the last 1/2" or so of the strut bracket. It hangs out over the prop a little too far, in my opinion, on the smaller (shorter-hub'd) props...

Yeah I remember you saying that. LOL, I was going to do that last night but ran out of time doing other things. That is one of my projects today. Plus doing so will allow me to raise the strut a tad more.

[Darin Jordan]

Just in case you guys are curious... here is an EagleTree graph I got yesterday while doing some testing at the lake... The setup was:

Motor: Stock ProBoat 1500KV
ESC: Stock ProBoat 45A
Prop: Stock ProBoat Stiletto Stainless (Prather 215 style)
Battery: 4S1P ThunderPower 45C 5000

This is a sample of around 6-seconds of a long straight run...

In the meantime, you can see where the stock setup is as far as Amps, RPMs, etc, under load.


Incidentally... If you figure around 25% prop slip, based on the average RPMs shown on the graph of 21,173, one could estimate (calculate) the speed of the boat at around 38mph with this setup...

[tiqueman]

Incidentally... If you figure around 25% prop slip, based on the average RPMs shown on the graph of 21,173, one could estimate (calculate) the speed of the boat at around 38mph with this setup...

Id say your calculated estimate is spot on. I GPS'd my neighbors blackjack at 40.4. My first outing w/ MG Id say it was about 2 mph slower than his BJ while running them as side by side as possible.

Darin, your just a wealth of great info... like Yoda :bowdown:

[ray schrauwen]

Darin, your just a wealth of great info... like Yoda :bowdown:

Just taller :bounce: :bowdown:

[Darin Jordan]

Just taller :bounce: :bowdown:

And, on a good day, not GREEN!! :bounce:

[Brushless55]

Great info!

[Darin Jordan]

Hey Guys... Bailed on work early on Thursday, Friday, and also ran down to the lake on Saturday morning, to test with the Miss G. The Eagle-Tree got a real workout...

Unfortunately, I was only able to make the airspeed sensor work for one session. It otherwise would not record, and seems dead now, so I'm looking into getting the GPS module...

However, it did capture a couple of pretty impressive runs...

Both of these were done using the stock motor and ESC. The only mods to the boat are as posted here: the offset rudder and the truing on the sponsons, and the upgraded contacts on the motor/ESC.

DISCLAIMER: Don't try this at home... the amp draw was WAY above the ratings for the ESC. Please keep in mind that it's part of my deal with ProBoat to test the limits, so that's what I was trying to do... :biggrin:

The first graph is from immediately after plugging in. I ran the motor up unloaded for a moment to get a baseline for the motor KV recorded.

The second is a clip from a 2-pass run using a Prather 230 prop. I have another graph where it shows 49mph max with this prop.... :rockon2:

The third is a from a run of several passes using another prop. Going to keep this one to myself for now. :spy: It works really well, and I want to play with it some more. I ran the boat in a simulated Offshore run for about 2.5 minutes, and it was breaking 40-MPH regularly. During another test... ran an average of 44-MPH with a peak of 46... (See last pic...) :cool2:

I may have some video to post. We'll have to see if any of it turned out.

I REALLY like this boat!

[tiqueman]

Uh oh.. keeping secrets like the guys I used to race cars with. :ThumbsDown01:

C-mon, do tell!

[Darin Jordan]

Uh oh.. keeping secrets like the guys I used to race cars with. :ThumbsDown01:

C-mon, do tell!

Nope... I told you the fast one... the Prather 230 was straight up, just sharpened and balanced... The other one was a custom piece that most wouldn't be able to duplicate anyhow, and would likely burn stuff up without having the work done to it.

I haven't calculated the speeds yet, but I also tested with an Octura X645 that has been pitched up slightly, and it REALLY worked well... I'll try to get those numbers worked up and post them tomorrow. That one had really good handling characteristics as well....

[tiqueman]

I ended up w/ an M445 on mine and swapped the esc for a T-120. ALL of the bounce is gone and its running well on it. Temps are staying just over 105 for sport playing. Havent got it out on a lap event yet.

Feel free to PM me the worked prop info... :thumbup1:

[Darin Jordan]

I ended up w/ an M445 on mine and swapped the esc for a T-129. ALL of the bounce is gone and its running well on it.


I'm still working on the slight porposing part... Haven't shaken it completely yet, but haven't really tried yet either... I'll have to go back and read through all your threads to figure out what you guys are doing to get that smoothed out.

It feels like the hull may not be packing quite enough air for the speeds it's going, which may be contributing to this. I noticed that, when a slight wind kicked up and the water rippled up, it all went away when the boat loosened up. I'm running dead neutral right now, with the strut basically setting flat on the setup board, so the centerline only slightly up from the sponson bottoms. Need to modify the strut a bit to get it any higher up.

[tiqueman]

My strut is neutral and sits such that the backs of the sponsons are not quite and eighth off the table. well one side differs from the other a bit... I think shes got a lil twist in her. A 642 and 640 still bounce w/ this set up, for whatever reason, the M445 doesnt.

[LiPo Power]

Sounds like the M445 and the secret prop Darin is using are the way to go!!!

[Darin Jordan]

Here is some more data:

First, based on the graph I posted previously with the unloaded motor setup, the motor KV calculates to be 1522KV. This is with the ESC set at HIGH timing. This baseline is useful in seeing how much the system drops KV under load, which can give one a good idea of how different props are going to perform or affect the system.

Also note that the battery voltages. As you will notice, the average voltages vary. If some of you aren't getting good results, your cheap batteries may be to blame. Some of the props can REALLY draw cells down.


So, in the first chart, I made a run using the stock Miss Geico plastic prop. Using the average RPM shown, and a figure of 2.52" pitch (Prather 215 listed pitch) with 25% slippage, the calculated speed would be 34.32mph. Average amp draw was 53.73A. Sounds about like what others have achieved. Speed would have been a tad faster if the batteries had been fresh for this run. As you can see, the voltage is down around 14.14 under load. I ran several tests back to back, so this pack had been run for a bit.

We can compensate for this a tad, by calculated the effective KV, using the existing RPMs and voltage, then extrapolating to estimate some speeds... Doing that for this case, 19114.87/14.14 = 1324KV (under load). On a fresh charge, voltage would be up around 15.5V or so. Using this figure, would could estimate that 15.5V x 1324KV = 20533RPM (which is what I've seen on previous test data for this prop setup... ;) ) This would translate into around 36.85 MPH in stock trim.

Second chart shows the same setup, using a stock, untouched ProBoat Stiletto prop. Batteries were a little bit fresher for this one. Speed calculates to 37mph. Amp draw was 46.19A. Better prop, less flexing, more efficient. Makes sense. Estimating on a full charge: 20592.10/14.90 = 1382KV (see a pattern forming here?? ;) ) 1382KV * 15.5V = 21,421 RPM. This would translate into approximately 38.46 MPH.


The Third chart shows the same setup, this time with an Octura X645, full bladed, but with the trailing edges bent up a tad (pitched up). I haven't measured it to find out exactly where it is, pitch-wise. I'll try to do that in the next day or so. Stock pitch is 2.835". Based on the chart, this props loads down the system more. Loaded KV dropped to 1289KV. If using the stock pitch numbers, the chart would be showing around 36.87MPH. Estimating using the loaded KV, the speed at 15.5V would be 40.357 MPH. Again, my X645 has some pitch added to it, so I'd estimate the speeds in the chart to actually be somewhere more in the 39-41MPH range... I'll try to measure the pitch exactly and recalculate. Amp Draw is a little beyond what most should probably be running on the stock ESC... ;)


More to come as I gather info...

[Darin Jordan]

Sounds like the M445 and the secret prop Darin is using are the way to go!!!

According to the information I'm gathering... Using the M445 (stock), the speeds would be in around the 36-38 MPH range... The M445 actually has less pitch than the stock Plastic or Stiletto prop. 2.478" vs. 2.52" according to the prop chart. The extra blade area of the M445 may be helpful, and it's "pre-detongued", so that's killing some of the lift, which may also be helpful....

If people have info to the contrary, please post it... I'm using a figure of 25% for the prop slip, and this obviously isn't the same for all props. I'm thinking the larger blade area/diameter props would have less slip. I'd like to understand this better.

[Darin Jordan]

I also tested an ABC 45x55 and LOVED the way it handled. The boat flew on this prop, but I'm having trouble estimating the speed, because this prop is listed on the prop chart at 2.165" of pitch, but there is NO WAY it was only going 30 MPH... (calculated).

The pitch chart is the AVERAGE pitch across the entire blade... I measured a Prather 230 and from the trailing edge to about the midpoint of the blade, this prop shows around 3.4" of pitch... Chart has it listed at 2.992... I need to measure the whole blade to see how the actual chart and prop coincide.

I suspect that the 45x55 will measure out to have a bit more pitch in the half of the blade that the chart would indicate. Also, I may have bent on this one a bit in the past... I can't remember! (ANOTHER reason to start measuring these things for real!!

Here is the chart from the 45x55... I'm positive it was into the upper 30's, low 40s... the amp draw would indicated this kind of speed as well...

[ron1950]

first off i know nothing of amp draw etc that said how do u think the stiletto motor would do in the mg? i know run time may suffer but what do u think speed wise? better or worse? thanks for the info on the mg love to read this thread now.

[Darin Jordan]

first off i know nothing of amp draw etc that said how do u think the stiletto motor would do in the mg? i know run time may suffer but what do u think speed wise? better or worse? thanks for the info on the mg love to read this thread now.

It's all going to depend on the prop... If you are talking simply swapping motors, using the stock prop, I would expect the 1800KV motor to be good for another 3-4mph...

[ron1950]

thanks darin ..... it seems to be just that (2 or 3 mph faster) then stock friends boat....useing detounged x640. bateries seem to drain much faster then stock though lol....probably go back to stock and try some of your upgrades soon though.....oh ya.....the retrival duck works great lol

[Darin Jordan]

thanks darin ..... it seems to be just that (2 or 3 mph faster) then stock friends boat....useing detounged x640. bateries seem to drain much faster then stock though lol....probably go back to stock and try some of your upgrades soon though.....oh ya.....the retrival duck works great lol

That's the trade-off for sure... 2-3mph is actually quite a visual difference on the water, however...

What I concentrate on a lot more is acceleration out of the corners, and speed through the corners. A GPS reading of 45mph doesn't do you any good if it takes you the length of the straight to get up there.... I'd rather hit 43 or 44 by mid-straight, and carry that "slower" speed the rest of the way to the next corner!

[LiPo Power]

After reading it all here I made my move to do the rudder mod before the season.
Here is some pictures of wicked outcome and funtastic job I did :tongue_smilie:
Robert

[ray schrauwen]

Nice, simple, effective & cheap!

[LiPo Power]

Thanks Ray.
This was only $5 for 2 of them, nicely done at one of the shops here in Mississauga on Cawthra Rd south of Dundas.
I like it and I hope it will make a difference ( it's like I know how she was before the mod :doh: )
I also have all the props people are suggesting here to try S&B&P.
Now I need H2O not the Ice....
Robert



Nice, simple, effective & cheap!

[Boomer]

LP
Nice job!- I am concerned that you will discover what I and others have with that configuration. My first installation was witht the Kintec Racing bracket which basically the same shape as you bracket. Looked great and installed in seconds. The only issue was that the lower half of the bracket created drag and a very large rooster tail, until my boat was at full throttle.
I tried the two Octura spacers which worked equally well but still kicked up a spray and created some drag.
I contacted Kintec and shaded this with him, and from that conversation, he created his 2nd version of his bracket which has the lower half machined out.

It works perfectly. The pictures below show the area that was removed to eliminate the drag and rooster tail it created.
Boomer

[LiPo Power]

I see...
Need to do few tests and if that is the case I will cut my second bracket to eliminate the drag and install....
Current bracket buttom edge is a little higher than buttom of the hull so hopefully with the spped increase when boat will start getting in plane this will be no issue...

[JackBlack26]

I don't get it. If you really wanted to move your rubber over wouldn't it be easier, and more effective, to mount an "L" bracket just to the right of the servo arm, on the transom of the boat? I'm new to this boating stuff but that would seem the most logical to me.

[LiPo Power]

Installing it there is no problem but you would need to first install reinforcement inside of it to make sure it is strong enough. Out of the box this area it's just fiberglass hull thickness....
Someone did this here exactly the way you are describing with a little more work.
Check picture...




I don't get it. If you really wanted to move your rubber over wouldn't it be easier, and more effective, to mount an "L" bracket just to the right of the servo arm, on the transom of the boat? I'm new to this boating stuff but that would seem the most logical to me.

[LiPo Power]

If you adjusting your strut to be even with the bottom of the ride pads make sure your prop has enough room to spin.
I have done some try outs here with X642, M445, Prather 430 and there is no way to spin them if the strut is even with riding pads....
I will need to grind the corner of the mount off a little to use this props.....

[blackcat26]

Robert, that's my boat you referenced in post #171. I have only run it a few times since the mod but seems like a winner so far. You are correct about support, I used a pc. of marine ply to hold the t-nuts in place and add strunth.

[LiPo Power]

So what prop are you using now?
Is your strut level with riding pods?





Robert, that's my boat you referenced in post #171. I have only run it a few times since the mod but seems like a winner so far. You are correct about support, I used a pc. of marine ply to hold the t-nuts in place and add strunth.

[blackcat26]

Strut level and last setup was cc1512 1800kv on 4s and prop was x447. Bounce was gone but ran in slight chop.

[LiPo Power]

Does your X447 have enough room to spin with strut at level with riding pods?
Coul you please post close up picture of it?
Robert



Strut level and last setup was cc1512 1800kv on 4s and prop was x447. Bounce was gone but ran in slight chop.

[blackcat26]

Picture is kinda blurry but you get the idea.

[LiPo Power]

I see now.... Great idea!
Well, since I have used the other option to offset the rudder here is what I did to be able to fit other props...
Robert





Picture is kinda blurry but you get the idea.

[JackBlack26]

I figured structural support back there to mount the rudder would be necessary but didn't understand why it would be an issue. I would use a piece of like a piece of .032 or .064 aluminum. I hate wood in these boats.

Blackcat26, now that looks awesome! Looks very clean. What bracket did you use?

I have a 1512 1800 and a Castle 3424 1800 outrunner. IMO, the 1512 is too big for the boat. I ran multiple runs with the outrunner and my batteries didn't heat up over 89*. I installed the 1512 and it killed the same batteries, cheap HK 5Kmah 20C LiPos, I ran the outrunner with. They came off at 130* with the 1512 and now kick the ESC in to LVC in just a couple of minutes. I'm sure you probably have better quality batteries though. I don't have a Data logger but it seems logical by this experience that the outrunner, generating more torque by design, draws less amperage, runs everything cooler, and provided longer run times......Just my thoughts.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/rlopez75/DSC01088.jpg
1512 with silicone jacket.
http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/2/8/1/2/1/6/a3714554-43-losifiends%20geico%20under%20the%20hood.jpg?d=1294 539761

[Brushless55]

are the speeds about the same between the two motors?

[blackcat26]

Bracket is home made with some 1/16 angle I bought at a hardware store. 1512 too much? Come on now, you need some real batteries!

[JackBlack26]

are the speeds about the same between the two motors?
They seem the same, but I have no GPS on hand. I can tell you that the outrunner makes it jump out the water at full throttle from a dead stop and the 1512 doesn't.

A member of another forum was running the same boat this weekend with a UL1 2030kv motor and NanoTech LiPos and we were neck and neck. I run a 42x55 prop and he runs a composite prop from OSE, but didn't get the number of his prop. I'm settling on the outrunner. No 1512 for me:thumbup1:
Here is some video of that our Geicos playing together. The boats seem pretty well matched, considering the motor KV difference and my cheap 20C LiPos compared to his NanoTech LiPos. My boat is the one on the inside that crosses to the outside in the beginning.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17048000&postcount=3819

[JackBlack26]

Bracket is home made with some 1/16 angle I bought at a hardware store. 1512 too much? Come on now, you need some real batteries!
I do need real batteries and I'll be getting some 40C LiPos this week. But in size reference and weight compared to the performance of a CC outrunner, yes it's too much. The outrunner keeps the boat nice and light, while keeping amp draw down, but that's just my opinion from experience with both motors in this boat.

Run whacha' brung, and have fun!:rockon2:

[blackcat26]

I bought my 1512 to run on 6s. I was just playing around with props to see the difference in speed between 4s and 6s. My fastest was 58mph on 6s and didn't test much on 4s.

[JackBlack26]

58mph, nice! After speeds like that why run 4s, right? I wouldn't.

[blackcat26]

Well I was trying to see if a big prop could beat high rpm's. So far I still like high rpm's!

[JackBlack26]

So, 1800kv isn't too much for 6S, considering the small prop? Does the boat stay pretty stable at that speed?

[blackcat26]

Yes it is a lot of rpm's but using a small prop like a m440 I had no issues. Not too bad stability wise at those speeds.

[Brushless55]

They seem the same, but I have no GPS on hand. I can tell you that the outrunner makes it jump out the water at full throttle from a dead stop and the 1512 doesn't.

A member of another forum was running the same boat this weekend with a UL1 2030kv motor and NanoTech LiPos and we were neck and neck. I run a 42x55 prop and he runs a composite prop from OSE, but didn't get the number of his prop. I'm settling on the outrunner. No 1512 for me:thumbup1:
Here is some video of that our Geicos playing together. The boats seem pretty well matched, considering the motor KV difference and my cheap 20C LiPos compared to his NanoTech LiPos. My boat is the one on the inside that crosses to the outside in the beginning.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17048000&postcount=3819

Looks like the UL-1 powered had some balls and was pulling away..
I was thinking another thing that maybe the 1512 did not work like others think it should is the timing.. maybe the timing on the esc is wrong for the motor?
just a thought
and those 20c packs, I have some for my 3D planes and I actually like them more than the Nano packs I have :thumbup1:

[JackBlack26]

The UL1, Ammo motor, does have balls. I was quite surprised when he said, "oh, my boat is stock", lol! There was no one out there for retrieval so I was being cautious on the turns which is why he kept in front of me. I didn't want to flip mine. He was hitting the turns balls out! You can definitely tell the few extra RPMs make a difference though.

The only time I have had a problem with the 5K mah 20C packs is when they get over drawn by just a bit. They ether puff or will not hold amperage anymore. Not too big of a margin of error at all! For the price difference, $6.42/pack, I'm going with the 40c packs next.

[Brushless55]

The UL1, Ammo motor, does have balls. I was quite surprised when he said, "oh, my boat is stock", lol! There was no one out there for retrieval so I was being cautious on the turns which is why he kept in front of me. I didn't want to flip mine. He was hitting the turns balls out! You can definitely tell the few extra RPMs make a difference though.

The only time I have had a problem with the 5K mah 20C packs is when they get over drawn by just a bit. They ether puff or will not hold amperage anymore. Not too big of a margin of error at all! For the price difference, $6.42/pack, I'm going with the 40c packs next.

those UL-1 motors are bad ass.. you can see that thing pull from you in the straights

and your packs, bro don't go below 20% left in them and they will last a long time :beerchug:
even if you get the 40c packs and you overdraw them, they will puff

[JackBlack26]

I didn't mean to over draw them in voltage(MAH). I meant they were overdrawn in amperage(20Cx5000mah). I'm comparing a 100A(20c) discharge rate battery to a 200A(40c). There is actually no comparing them. Hands down the 40C battery "should" last longer.

Like I mentioned, I don't have a data logger but judging by temperature, the 1512 draws more amperage which is why I believe I killed them.

[Brushless55]

I didn't mean to over draw them in voltage(MAH). I meant they were overdrawn in amperage(20Cx5000mah). I'm comparing a 100A(20c) discharge rate battery to a 200A(40c). There is actually no comparing them. Hands down the 40C battery "should" last longer.

Like I mentioned, I don't have a data logger but judging by temperature, the 1512 draws more amperage which is why I believe I killed them.

Oh gotcha, the 1512 got to em.. :Peace_Sign:

do you know what the timing on the esc is set to?

[JackBlack26]

ESC is a T180 and the default is 15*. I was running the same timing for both motors. Just checked and charged my batteries and it only got 1. The voltage is low at 4.7 and 4.8/cell while the others hold 4.24/cell. I'll keep that pack to run in my Widowmaker rescue rig

[Brushless55]

ESC is a T180 and the default is 15*. I was running the same timing for both motors. Just checked and charged my batteries and it only got 1. The voltage is low at 4.7 and 4.8/cell while the others hold 4.24/cell. I'll keep that pack to run in my Widowmaker rescue rig

15* is to much for the 1512
your volts are 4.7 and 4.8 per cell?
lipo charge to 4.2 volts per cell

[blackcat26]

15 deg is perfect for that motor. It is a "y" wind and that is the timing recommended on Neu's website towards the bottom.

[Brushless55]

15 deg is perfect for that motor. It is a "y" wind and that is the timing recommended on Neu's website towards the bottom.

I'de back it to 7* and see how it runs :Peace_Sign:

[blackcat26]

May run better there who knows. I made some timing test on my align one time and all three or 4 settings were within a few mph of each other. I was disappointed. I wanted to see a huge difference!

[Brushless55]

May run better there who knows. I made some timing test on my align one time and all three or 4 settings were within a few mph of each other. I was disappointed. I wanted to see a huge difference!

usually you will not see a huge difference but the amount of amp draw can be big

[blackcat26]

Makes sense. I have never used any kind of data logging. I always just look for the smoke!:w00t:

[Brushless55]

Makes sense. I have never used any kind of data logging. I always just look for the smoke! :w00t:

:roflol:

[Diesel6401]

From Neu, applicable to neu/castle motors.
Settings for “other” brushless ESCs:
1) 11XX,15XX and 22XX series of motors are all 4 pole designs. 19XX series are 8 poles and the 44XX series are 12 poles.
2) Use low (0-10 degrees)or medium(10-15 degrees) advance settings for “Y” wind motors and low (0-10 degrees) advance settings for “D” wind versions.
3) Brake settings are up to the user and application.

[JackBlack26]

Brushless, these 5000mah 20C LiPos have always charged to 4.24-4.28/ cell. I have been using this series for over 2 years now and in my experience with them I have learned that when they start taking less than 4.10v/cell it's usually a sign of weak cells. So far I have killed 2 packs with this boat:doh: it's the price to pay to play, I guess.

I will try lowering the timing next time i run the 1512 and see if the battery heat dies down a bit. But I may never run it n this boat again since the outrunner runs so good. Thanks for the advice!

[Brushless55]

have you ever tried doing a balance on those packs?
not a balance charge, but a balance only on the packs
not sure if that could help those packs

[forescott]

Yeah, that's what I wanna know. I have both motors as well, but haven't tried the inrunner yet.

[JackBlack26]

Brushless, yes. Every once in a while I leave my Common Sense Ballance Pro on each pack over night. Have not noticed any advantage of doing that.

[LiPo Power]

So can you race with others using 6S on MS Geico and 1512 motor?

[Brushless55]

Brushless, yes. Every once in a while I leave my Common Sense Ballance Pro on each pack over night. Have not noticed any advantage of doing that.

good, I think that will help the packs have a longer life

[wiskers]

Picture is kinda blurry but you get the idea.
In Thread # 177's picture it looks as if the bottom leading edge of the rudder has been rounded. Is this true? And if it is, how is that working for you? I have been contemplating do just that for a while, but I haven't found any theads on this yet.

[ray schrauwen]

I think this is to reduce lift caused by the rudder.

[LiPo Power]

IMO on this picture the rudder edge it's just digging in to the carpet so it looks like it was rounded but it is not. Personally I think rounding rudder on its buttom will create lift effect at high speed so you should leave it the way it is, square....





In Thread # 177's picture it looks as if the bottom leading edge of the rudder has been rounded. Is this true? And if it is, how is that working for you? I have been contemplating do just that for a while, but I haven't found any theads on this yet.

[shannon87]

hi darin just was wondering will the deans be ok for racing as i was hoping to race it while keeping the warranty other wise id have to wait till it expires before i do the connectors.

And to kinda show to racers and newbs that you can have a good competative boat for 350 bucks instead of double that which most end up going with a scratch built boat.

And once i have been goin for a while ill then get onto the special drive mod i was talking to you about and among other custom mods

[Darin Jordan]

hi darin just was wondering will the deans be ok for racing as i was hoping to race it while keeping the warranty other wise id have to wait till it expires before i do the connectors.

And to kinda show to racers and newbs that you can have a good competative boat for 350 bucks instead of double that which most end up going with a scratch built boat.

And once i have been goin for a while ill then get onto the special drive mod i was talking to you about and among other custom mods

I'm sure it would be fine. Go for it!!

[shannon87]

hi darin cheers i cant wait to get started i should be getting it soon and i have found someone to help me with the special drive mod. Have you started that mod or planning it soon ? ill also be adding other goodies and custom pieces from kintec racing.

I may get the connectors done at my LHS if i get the stock connectors properly de soldered will that void any warranty and the same with the offset bracket as i just would like to keep it reliable as doing the connectors to 5.5 mm seems to help with temps and the same with the rudder helping cornering.

Once i have done the rudder conversion i wold like to do a prop wash pick up as in the blackjack and other pro boats as i like the look of it plus water starts to flow at a much lower speed which would be benefical as i wont be going full throttle one because my local pond isnt big enough to do 40 for sustained periods lol and i will be going slower too till i learn to drive plus even though the rudder pick up would be sufficent its a personal preferance also.

Someone also mentioned when i was talking about slower speed operation they said the boat doenst have that much throttle range and is basically on and off which is bad for my pond because there is one main clear section which is about 5-6 meters across and about 25-30 meters long which i know is totally clear of debris either side it gets a little weedy and out further where i cannot see whats under the water ther are are some small logs floating around so it would be a hell of a relief to know that i can take slow turns if i have to to avoid the danger zones.

Because if its on and off like they describe then into the turn when you accelarate it would be at full throttle lets just say it would be interesting lol so i was thinking they have it set on algorithim and linear should by my understanding smooth it out andgive more control because i dont want to change my esc to allow that or only run it on practice days as its 10 bucks to run your boat as the pond i have described is the only one closest to me and we go past that a fair bit so its what i have to work with as i live in a rural area while there are plenty of dams there all on private property or water supplies.

[bhauptner]

Darrin,
:thumbup: Just ngot the Miss G and ran it on two 5000Mah Nimh's and it handled great. Has to move packs back from recommended CG amd give thr drive a tweak up. Great boat.With the 45 Amp Speed control waht would be the best Lipos to buy and what prp would you recommend. I roughed up the wetted surfaces. I have been in RC sice 63' and have raced nitro ,gas an full size offshore boats but these Lipo sare new for me. I would like to "Lite it up and get some air!!! Thanks a bunch and who ever thought yOu could get this kind of fun foe less han $ 400. My hat is off to you.:thumbup:

[pyroM!KE]

Buy a bunch of these and dont look back..They should be back in stock soon..http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16194
Ohh..Lose the Deans connectors and use 5.5 bullets on esc battery and motor wires..That is a must..
The octura x642 is a great prop..I Just tried a CF 45 prop the other day and that prop works awesome!!

[bhauptner]

Thanks for the information and I will be taking ypur advice on the Turnigy packs and thy props. Can I go any higher than 25C with the stock 45 Amp motor and ESC?. I also had heard that the Ammo motor will kick it up a notch in torque and speed. I was also looking at the Turnigy 4 battery charger. What do you think about this charger? I am located in Denver and we are just getting an opportunity to run between the ice and open water!!! Good news is the water is about 40 degrees so the controller and battery overheating is not an issue right now. Have a great day!!

[dirty]

i run 40 and 45c on my stock esc and motor

[pyroM!KE]

Thanks for the information and I will be taking ypur advice on the Turnigy packs and thy props. Can I go any higher than 25C with the stock 45 Amp motor and ESC?. I also had heard that the Ammo motor will kick it up a notch in torque and speed. I was also looking at the Turnigy 4 battery charger. What do you think about this charger? I am located in Denver and we are just getting an opportunity to run between the ice and open water!!! Good news is the water is about 40 degrees so the controller and battery overheating is not an issue right now. Have a great day!!

The batts I suggested are 40c..As to your question about c rating, the higher the better..Now with the charger, I would pay good money for a high end charger..Ive tried a couple HK chargers and have been bit by them..I just got a twin spek Orion charger and I love it!

[dirty]

thunder ac6 charger works pretty good too

[bhauptner]

:help: Can anyone tell me if the found a touch up paint for Miss G BL?? Thanks for the help. My deck and hull at the bow cracked about one inch form thr tip of the starboard sponson. No impact and only running 5000 Mah Nimh's. Need to patch up and repaint. I love this Boat!!! THANKS

[pawpaw1964]

hey i got lucky and found a flex shaft rotating the right direction, so i went and ran it today. but i ran into a different problem. when i turned the boat on and tested the steering, it was weird. it shook around after i let off steering one direction. i tried it for a second and the steering was delayed and sticking for a second when id let off. any ideas on this one??

put a little lube on the stering rod mine did the same thing

[JPriami]

:help: Can anyone tell me if the found a touch up paint for Miss G BL?? Thanks for the help. My deck and hull at the bow cracked about one inch form thr tip of the starboard sponson. No impact and only running 5000 Mah Nimh's. Need to patch up and repaint. I love this Boat!!! THANKS

I have some paint on order and should get it next week. I ordered two colors incase I have to tint it to match better. You will need a white base under the color if your doing a repair job. That's how the color gets it's extra brightness.
Here is a pic of the paint chips against my boat.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/Jpriami/a1d651a7.jpg

Justin

[TheShaughnessy]

Here are some numbers i got today using this http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10080 watt meter.

Ul1 motor t120 with x645.
First time with this prop and this motor, short run to make sure temps weren't getting too crazy. did laps for about a min, and noticed some hop came back and i hadn't changed anything but the prop.

motor temp was 112
esc temp was 100 (at the caps)

114 amp peak
14.9 watt wh
15.41 voltage min (packs were two 4s 5000 mah 20-30c wired for 4s2p)
1806.3 watt peak ( is that ridiculously high? I'm wondering about accuracy)
and i forgot to write down the amp hours for this run:doh::doh:

m445
This was as close to two minutes as i could get, I stopped once to look at the time the next time i looked it was right at 2 min and I brought her in

130 at the rear (bearing area) of the motor
118 on the esc at the caps

101 amp peak
30.5 watt hours
14.97 voltage min (same packs, no recharge)
1590.5 watt peak
1.993 amp hours ( which would be 1993 mah?)

Had an x440/3, Just wanted to see the numbers on it, not nearly enough prop, much slower then the m445. Also a 2 min run

Motor was 90
esc was 75

69.96 amp peak
28.3 watt hours
14.75 voltage min (still same packs)
1071 watt peak
1.990 amp hours

I was WOT with the exception of stopping to check the time and easing off for a couple corners. Esc ran much cooler then the day before when i was on off the throttle a lot more and not pinning it the whole time. Had the esc up to 150 with the motor at 126.

The inside corners are pretty rounded on my hull so i'm gonna sharpen them up. It corners hard, wait i mean it corners HARD! But i seem to loose quite a bit of speed in the corners, maybe i didn't offset my rudder as far as i should have. I'm hoping truing up the sponsons will keep me up a little more though the corners.

I've been running my rudder tucked, maybe I'll try backing it out a little and see what that does.

Also i have the front of my packs about flush with the back of my motor. Seems to be pretty stable here, might try moving them back a tad but that's when this happened. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FafgQb7cP5M but they were way back in that vid.

[ray schrauwen]

Great post man thanks a gazzilion!!!

I think I'll finally buy one of those watt meters. I didn't think they held the info like that!!

Very informative little device.

NIce performance from some inexpensive cells too!

Maybe you could detongue that prop for more speed & less amps???

[TheShaughnessy]

Great post man thanks a gazzilion!!!

I think I'll finally buy one of those watt meters. I didn't think they held the info like that!!

Very informative little device.

NIce performance from some inexpensive cells too!

Maybe you could detongue that prop for more speed & less amps???

Which prop? the m445 comes detongued, thought about doing it to the x645, thinking about ordering up a 3 bladder though.

They hold the info as long as power is connected, maybe not as nice as some of the ones that graph it out on your computer but i got some decent info.

[JPriami]

Sounds like a pretty handy device

[tiqueman]

Great info on the data logging. Slowing a bit in corners, even w/ the offset just happens. Nothing you can really do about it. I did quite a bit of testing w/ teh rudder, tucked vs not, and tucked came out ahead. Its not tucked much, but it certainly holds the back end down nicely while cornering. If its not tucked, she wants to get a little sketchy in the turns. Almost like its going to spin or slide out. I can tell during a race if my rudder has become untucked. Handling changes drastically.

[JackBlack26]

Decided to run a 48mm Grouper carbon prop yesterday just to see how the Castle outrunner performed. Motor came it at around 120* with no cooling. ESC caps were barely warm since I added the extra 3. I dont think I'll run the 48mm prop all the time but wanted to see how big of a prop the motor could handle. Looks like I have room for a 50mm prop, lol!

Anyways, here is a video I shot while driving. The front end was a bit light and got more bouncing than I would of liked on this first run. After moving the batteries forward a bit more she leveled out nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwBj_EGu5Sc

[tiqueman]

Looks like shes movin out very well. Any close up stills of that freshly painted hull?

[JackBlack26]

It's just primered right now. No paint yet.

[tiqueman]

Im still interested. be nice to see one thats not Geico green anymore.

[JackBlack26]

Ok my good man! Here ya go. My son loves the pilot and copilot. They went on a good ride yesterday :rockon2:
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/rlopez75/DSC01356.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/rlopez75/DSC01355.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/rlopez75/DSC01354.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/rlopez75/DSC01357.jpg

For some reason the cover sits high on one side. I need to take a dremel sanding drum to it and see if I can get it to sit level.

[ray schrauwen]

Even white is hard too match I see.

Thats a FG hatch isn't it?

[JackBlack26]

Yeah, but I wasn't trying to match the white of the FG hatch. You see the silver along the edges of the lid? I had the whole thing primered white and I got lazy and decided to try and rattle can it. I tried it on the lid first to see how it would come out. Well, don't ever use Duplicolor automotive spray paint!! The paint reacted to it's self on the second coat and it magically wrinkled up in front of my eyes. It was an amazing sight to see paint lift up off the canopy and wrinkle as if someone had poured paint stripper over it. So I just took an old credit card and simply wiped off the paint and primer. It got too late on Friday and I was going out on Saturday morning so I didn't get to shoot the lid with primer again. I like the boat in all white though and I think it will get painted in that color. I'll end up going with Budweiser Select logos along the side and deck of the boat to make it easy.

[ray schrauwen]

Might paint mine red or orange. I am partial to Tamiya paints, they go on thin, dry nearly immediately and great bonding.

Thats just me, they aren't cheap.

I did find this neat stuff just recently. Seems almost too good to be true. Not the selection of colours I would choose either.

http://www.molotow.com/products/artist-line/molotow-premium-400ml/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rjsv6l3djU&feature=related

They have Flourescent Neon colours coming this spring. Soon I guess.

I saw a Utube vid with this paint. You can paint over top of water, wild.


http://www.youtube.com/user/ArtPrimo#p/u/54/dFhohXIFpdE

[Brushless55]

I would love to do one with this paint! :rockon2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI-i6h_dmgY&feature=related

[tiqueman]

Looks good Rafael. I like the white as well. Could go white Amsoil?.... I did my Yellow Pursuit up w/ the Amsoils and it look pretty hot.

[tiqueman]

I would love to do one with this paint! :rockon2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI-i6h_dmgY&feature=related

That would look sweet.. until a cloudy day when the water reflection matched your boat. :w00t:

[JackBlack26]

Spastix makes chrome pain for polycarbonate bodies. I wonder if it would work on the outside, instead of on the inside like lexan bodies are painted....Hmm...now I have to try a little on something and see what happens!

Ray, does the Tamiya paint come for use in an airbrush? I have never used their paint before, because its expensive. I'm going down to San Diego for the weekend this week and a hobby shop there carries House of Color paint in small bottles for modeler's use. It would be sick to do one up in "chameleon" paint!

[ray schrauwen]

It comes in bottle & bomb. It's acrylic lacquer. They have nice pearl clear etc. Lots to choose from but, expensive. Tape downs didn't seem to peel up any paint at all, not even the clear coats. If you try to lay it too heavy too fast the colours can run but, only if you rush it like I did in one spot.

I'll try to find pics of that mono in red, white & blue.

I'm going to try, or at least check out the Molotow bombs, a store not too far sells it.

[Brushless55]

Spastix makes chrome pain for polycarbonate bodies. I wonder if it would work on the outside, instead of on the inside like lexan bodies are painted....Hmm...now I have to try a little on something and see what happens!



it will work on the outside, it wont look the same but you can try it:thumbup1:

[Darin Jordan]

FINALLY got a chance to race my MG this past weekend. Didn't do too badly, considering that it was really my first time REALLY racing the thing. Course was REALLY tight on the ends (MAYBE 25ft radius turns... MAYBE), and the conditions went from bad to misserable, AND, the driver needs to get some BALLS and learn to drive this boat on the pins, but overall, it did pretty well.

Bone stock, except for the mods described in this thread... re: bottom trued, offset rudder, 5.5mm contacts... and I put in a 60A PB ESC instead of the 45A stocker, just because I had one and needed to use the boat to test some other things for PB while I was there... :spy:

Not quite there on speed yet, but there is more in the tank. We'll build up to using it all.

qkDQ-gqOYp8

[brian6989]

Great video looks like fun

[ron1950]

looked like just another sunny day in the northwest lol

[d.a.v.e]

what prop were you running?

[Darin Jordan]

what prop were you running?

I tuned it down a tad for the crappy conditions and so I could get some other aspects dialed in, so I was running an ABC 45x55, which is a reliable performer.

There is quite a bit more speed in the setup, but, as you can tell from the video, I need to work on getting the handling and the timing down so I can stay on the course before I worry about making the boat faster. The gap to 1st wouldn't have been nearly what it was if I'd just stayed on the buoys... :ThumbsDown01:

When I tested props for just speed previously, this prop was good for 43-45mph consistently...

[Darin Jordan]

looked like just another sunny day in the northwest lol

No doubt... this was the very last heat of the day... and the skies opened up just as we got started. Gotta love packing up in the rain!

[ron1950]

spectrun needs to make a rain cover for the 3s and 3r lol i know id buy one...i hate it when u are racing and it opens up on ya...nowhere to hide that tx

[john722010]

Darin,
I think I have covered every thread on both the MG and the Mystic Cat looking for a detailed description of how to blueprint a hull. Even check Youtube.
I just got my Mystic Cat and ran on 4S stock 34 MPH. I have a 642 prop comming and I need to dial in the strut, but blueprinting seems to be a major step in improving performance.

Are there any sites or videos, that you know of that will provide detailed description on how to blueprint, beyond what you have provided?

What type paint do you use to paint the bottom of the boat after blueprinting?

This is my first Cat and I don't want to do this and make a mistake.
Thanks
John722010