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View Full Version : Hobbywing Seaking 180 GO BOOM



scooterP
05-02-2010, 11:33 PM
I must be the only one that got a bad one!! This was the forth run total on this esc since I recieved it last Thursday. Went 10 feet from shore and blew the top off of my Fountain and proceeded to erupt into a little bonfire. :ohmy:

I'm really amazed that the hull survived with only smoke damage that can mostly be rubbed out. I can tell ya one thing, I'm sure glad I wasn't standing over it when it happened. Sounded and looked like a little cannon going off!!!:eek:

Well, I guess it was time for me to take a break............:crying:

Raydee
05-02-2010, 11:53 PM
Welcome to the smelly boat club......

m4a1usr
05-03-2010, 12:04 AM
Why did the motor wires burn off the speedo? Thats an odd one.

John

Jeff Wohlt
05-03-2010, 12:58 AM
Yep...something more than a little wrong there. Still thinking of putting my cheapo ESCs in a cut small lipo bag.

scooterP
05-03-2010, 01:03 AM
I have no idea of what went wrong. I haven't changed anything at all since the last run the other day. It sure blew my top off of my boat!! I had it active while I taped the boat up, and even bumped the throttle for a split second to listen to the drive train and tossed her in the water. Hit the throttle and that's what I got......who knows.

BHChieftain
05-03-2010, 09:00 AM
How many cells were you running through it?
-Chief

scooterP
05-03-2010, 09:10 AM
I was running a 4s2p setup that I had ran with it for 4 runs previously. I was really impressed with this esc before it went boom. It had one of the smoothest throttle responses of all the esc's that I have used. I honestly don't know what could have went wrong.

Mel279
05-03-2010, 10:41 AM
whats your motor kv, prop size and boat length?thats whats happen when your motor failed

scooterP
05-03-2010, 11:33 AM
I was running an 8xl. I think the kv is around 2023. Prop size is an Octura 640. It's the same setup that I have been running for months now. I changed esc's because I had a cheap chinese 200a that starting having some weird issues, so I changed to this HW 180A. The esc and motor were only barely warm after a full run, so I don't think heat was an issue. Also, it failed on what was going to be my first run of the day on Sunday. Really strange how it happened.

Ctonez
05-03-2010, 12:48 PM
is it possible the batteries got wired in series rather than parallel?
Looks and sounds alot like when I accidently wired my SV in series...REALLY FAST!!!...for 10 feet, then BOOM!
burning on my toasted ESC looks nearly identical to yours.

scooterP
05-03-2010, 01:49 PM
Well, I guess anything is possible, but the way I have my "Y" connectors, kind of makes it physically impossible to wire in series. The esc also beeped 4 times indicating that it recognized 4 cells. It blew right when I hit the throttle....so I don't know. I agree though, it looks like a REALLY high voltage spike.

LiPo Power
05-04-2010, 01:18 AM
Hmmm....
I was just reading this:
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=14314
Very close scenarios....

scooterP
05-04-2010, 09:47 AM
My motor appears to be undamaged and no wires have any sign of heat or shorting out. My question is......could something with the motor have caused this? the reason I ask is I just want to make sure not to blow another esc when I hook this motor back up to it. I know that there isn't much to a brushless motor to cause an issue, I just wanted to make sure.

cybercrxt
05-04-2010, 10:48 AM
I hate to say it, but those xl motors are nothing but amp hogs. The Castle/Neu, Neu, and Medusa motors just don't pull that many amps, and run so much more efficiently. I had an 8xl, and it got everything super hot in a Titan 29 I had. Mike

scooterP
05-04-2010, 11:05 AM
I had ran it 4 packs previously a couple of days before the blowout. The temps on the motor and esc were low....barely warm.....but I don't know what the spikes were to the esc while running when my prop comes out of the water. Heck, I guess it just could boil down to a defective esc:unsure:

I know the Neu/Medusa and so on are higher quality motors, but the initial costs of one keeps me away........I know the pay now or pay later scenario.....:smile: It's just that since the first of the year my boat budget has been WAY low....along with everything else.

Hopefully it will not happen again. I could see if I pushed it while running and it fried for some reason, and I always check my caps, but the thing was barely warm after a wide open run for the duration of the pack. It's just the way it happened that makes me think that maybe.........just maybe it was a defect.

What's so bad is that I sold my only other running boat to help fund the new esc. Thankful though that it wasn't the esc along with the hull:ohmy:

ozzie-crawl
05-04-2010, 11:15 AM
i run a 120 amp esc in my cat with a 8xl on 4s with a s215 which is close to a x640 so dont think the amp draw was to high imo
but i only run for around 2 min,if your running for a whole pack and have 5000+ mah then that could cause damage

properchopper
05-04-2010, 12:41 PM
Logically, there's only two ways this release of energy could occur : a dead short on the input side inside the SC [not likely], or a dead or near dead short or load on the output side anywhere from inside the SC or all the way to the motor. I'd be carefull with that motor - testing it out with another SC could be risky ! I've taken out a brand new Hydra 240 by giving a full throttle start from rest. [ I don't ever do that anymore :doh:] Remember that the transient spike on startup can really skyrocket. Faigao motors can suffer from magnet degradation over time, drawing more and more current. I recently smoked my super trusty CC 80 which worked for years, with a rather old 9XL. I've parked that motor.

scooterP
05-04-2010, 01:56 PM
chopper,
That's what in the back of my mind on the motor also. I just get this bad feeling about it.......geez, now I need to keep my eye out for another motor..........it's all good though..

Brod
05-04-2010, 02:24 PM
Those blue motor leads are not 'fixed' onto the esc particulally good,i've had one come off in use and smoke the same esc in similar fashion,my hatch was pressing against them and must have jarred one loose.

scooterP
05-04-2010, 02:28 PM
my hatch was pressing against them and must have jarred one loose.


Now that is the best sounding scenario that I have heard on it yet. Mine was exactly the same way.....the hatch was pressing against them when I had it taped down. I didn't think anything of it. I'll know now...

Rumdog
05-04-2010, 04:39 PM
Look on Ebay for a castle/neu 1515 1y. Search castle monster. You can find them pretty cheap on there. They are excellent motors!

Gary
05-04-2010, 04:40 PM
My new boat will have the esc and batteries in a mini lipo bag. I cant afford a boat meltdown but batteries and esc i can live with.

sailr
05-04-2010, 04:44 PM
If you got that motor really hot, you demagnetized it. Then as it lost its magnetism, it started demanding more and more amps from the SC until it cooked it. My Feigao 580L did the same thing, took out my Seaking 180A esc but nothing smoked.

BakedMopar
05-04-2010, 09:16 PM
My Feigao 580L did the same thing, took out my Seaking 180A esc but nothing smoked.

Hey sailr is this recent. I know you were concerned about this happening a while back. Anymore info on setup?

scooterP
05-04-2010, 11:38 PM
If you got that motor really hot, you demagnetized it. Then as it lost its magnetism, it started demanding more and more amps from the SC until it cooked it.


I hadn't even ran the motor that day, it was the first run of the day. A couple of days before, I had done 4 runs and the motor and esc were barely warm.

ray schrauwen
05-05-2010, 04:04 AM
Are you using Bec?

Do you use a spark suppressor?

scooterP
05-05-2010, 11:25 AM
I'm not using a seperate BEC because I was only running a 4s setup. I also have never used a spark suppressor, but if would help, I'm game to give it a try. I have another ESC on the way, but I have to tell you that after seeing my canopy fly into the air about 20 feet when the cap popped, I'm a little gun shy.....

ray schrauwen
05-05-2010, 11:43 AM
Please try and NOT use the internal BEC, Try a UBEC for $7 or rx pack. I just don't know why they keep putting BEC into decent esc's.

A 33 OHM 1 WATT resistor soldered into a Aligator clip jumper cable is nice & portable, non permanent.

Your caps will like it better!

scooterP
05-05-2010, 11:47 AM
I have an external BEC that I can use. How do you use this spark arrestor that you described?

Jeff Wohlt
05-05-2010, 12:39 PM
Does running non-bec end up running the ESC cooler as well? My caps are getting hot and I was considering putting a etti board on it if it will cool them down.

ray schrauwen
05-05-2010, 01:16 PM
Something here:


Originally Posted by Carl Petersen
Lucien,

From time to time the subject of paralleling BEC outputs from two speed controllers, twin motor setup, to increase the current available comes up. What's your take on that?

Scorpion has done testing on their 4-cell ESC's with linear BEC circuits, and found that they can be put together in parallel with no ill effects. When you stop and think about it, the BEC's inside the ESC already have several voltage regulator chips in parallel to begin with. The BEC Circuits in the 4-cell ESC's are comprised of 2, 3 or 4 seperate voltage regulator IC's that put out one amp of current each. These chips are all connected in parallel with one another right on the PC board, and they all work well together. That is because Scorpion uses high quality voltage regulator chips with very tight output tolerances.

If you take 2 ESC's, and put them in parallel through a Y-Harness, you are basically connecting one group of voltage regulators to another. If they are all at the same voltage, then the output of one will not fight the other, since both are at the same voltage. Where you would run into problems is if you took two different ESC's and hooked them together, you could have the potential for a difference in voltage, and this could lead to a high amount of current flowing from one BEC into the other, and that would not be good.

The only down side to this is that if one of the ESC's fails, and the BEC circuit goes down with it, it can pull the remaining good BEC down as well. This situation can be avioded if you place a Schottky rectifier diode in line in the output between each of the BEC circuits. Schottky diodes are preferred, because they only have a 0.4 volt drop across them, as opposed to silicon diodes that have a 0.7 volt drop. All of the new Scorpion ESC's use 6.0 volt regulators in them now, so even with a Schottky diode in line, you still get 5.6 volts to the receiver, which is enough to ensure that you do not get a brown-out in a Spektrum receiver. Just make sure that the diodes are rated for at least 3 amps of continuous current and you will be fine. This way, if one BEC were to fail, the diodes would prevent current from flowing back into the dead BEC and allow the other one to continue functioning.

Talking about ESC's that have switching type BEC circuits, you should NEVER put these types in parallel with one another. The Switching type BEC's rely on a closed loop feedback system, where the output voltage is constantly monitored and pulse width of the switching circuit is constantly changing to adapt to the changing load on the system. This happens thousands of times per second, so that it can rapidly rrespond to a change in current when a servo moves or the load changes.

If you hook two switching type BEC's together, if one of them increases it's output voltage, the other one can see this as too much voltage and reduce it's output. Since the two outputs are tied together, you end up with a tug-of-war between the two BEC circuits where one adjusts, then the other one adjusts to compensate, then the first one re-adjusts, and this goes back and forth, throwing both of them out of whack.

If you intend on using a switching type BEC, you always want to use a single unit that is capable of handling all the required current demands.

That is my take on the situation, and hopefully you agree with it.

Thanks!

Lucien
more in the same RCG thread...

ray schrauwen
05-05-2010, 01:45 PM
Also:


Originally Posted by Innov8tive
I am not sure which ESC you were running, but one thing that many people do not take into account is how much load the BEC circuit puts on the speed controller. With the newer digital servos, the current coming from the BEC circuit is quite high, and the heat generated by the BEC circuit is often greater than the heat generated by the FET transistors in the ESC. Most ESC's are around 95 to 98% efficient at full throttle, so for every 100 watts of energy that transfers through them, you only get 2 to 5 watts of heat. Running at reduced throttle settings is less efficient, and the loss in the controller can go up to 10 or 15% depending on the PWM frequency and the design of the ESC itself.

Typically, a heli with 325mm blades will pull around 10-12 amps in a steady hover and average around 20 to 25 amps in 3D flight, so in general sport flying you run about 130 watts of power through the ESC and in hard 3D you run an average of around 250 watts of power. If you had the throttle set at 100% with proper gearing, just flying around you dissipate 7-10 watts of heat through the ESC, and in hard 3D up to 25 watts of power.

Now if you look at the BEC circuit, you have around 11 volts available that you are stepping down to 5 volts, this means that 6 volts is being dropped across the BEC circuit. If your average servo draw is 2 amps, then you are gettin 12 watts of heat from the BEC circuit alone! If you have a buzzing servo, or a gyro with too much gain that causes the tail servo to constantly adjust, then that servo alone can pull over 2 amps of current, doubling the current through the BEC and pushing it to 25 watts of power just from the BEC circuit. When you combine this with the dead air inside a scale fuselage, the ESC is going to get hot!

By running a seperate switching type BEC, all this servo load is taken away from the BEC in the speed controller and this allows it to run much cooler. Another thing that can be done is to get a small 30mm cooling fan from a computer CPU heatsink and run it on the ESC. These things typically only pull arounf 0.05 to 0.10 amps of current, which is virtually nothing, and they can be connected directly to a 3-cell Li-Po battery, since they are designed to run on 12 volts. This will work wonders pulling the heat off the ESC and allow it to dissipate into the air.

Al of this can work together to make your ESC run way cooler and much happier!

A 55 or 60 amp Scorpion ESC would be adequate for this installation, but I would still recommend using a small cooling fan to stir the air around the ESC.


Lucien

ray schrauwen
05-05-2010, 04:32 PM
I have an external BEC that I can use. How do you use this spark arrestor that you described?

I just clip one end to the battery + and the other to the Esc while the other lead is already connected, wait 10 sec. then plug it in. The clip will have to come off before the plug goes in.

I like that pic someone posted that had a resistor soldered permanent, looked neat.

scooterP
05-10-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm seriously beginning to think that this esc had a defect. I have another one that I have put 2 times as many runs on now as the first one on the same setup without issue. It's ashamed that you can't get any warranty replacement on these chinese esc's......but you get what you pay for I guess. It's a roll of the dice.

scooterP
05-19-2010, 12:20 PM
Well, I almost hate to admit it, but I have had yet another HW 180A esc self incinerate. It did it in the same fashion as the first one that I had. It wouldn't be so bad if I were running flat out and something happened, but this is happening right after I put the boat in the pond!!!!!:cursing: I also was running this one with a seperate BEC and I made sure to un pin the + lead coming from the esc to the reciever.

I had ran this esc with my 8XL and a 640 prop for at least 15 times before this failure occured. The only thing that I had changed before it occured was the reciever, and using an external BEC....I had been using a Hitec 3ch FM reciever when the first one blew. It caused that reciever to loose the throttle channel, so I went back to one of my old AM recievers until I could order another Hitec 3ch.

What's weird is the first day with the new Hitec, the range was worse than with an AM reciever, and the throttle would pulse when I reached what looked like the range limit.

Went out to the pond the next day, put batteries in and put the boat in the water. When I hit the throttle the motor seemed to cog once or twice then the magic smoke appeared.:confused2:.....and things started to cook.

The only thing I can come up with is either the motor is causing the failure or the reciever has something to do with it. I just don't know at this point. I haven't had the ESC under water or anything. It could have had a few drops on it here and there, but I thought their "waterproofing" would surely keep out a few odd drops......

I sent in pics to HobbyWing and they are replacing the esc for the cost of shipping, but honestly I'm scared to try it again. I think I will put my 9XL in and run with it to rule out the motor, but for some reason I think my reciever might have had something to do with it. Anyone have any ideas on this?

I'm honestly thinking of taking a break from boats after this run of bad luck....or whatever it is. I can go back to flying helis and get out cheaper than this!!!!:help:

ray schrauwen
05-19-2010, 01:04 PM
Is your motor a feigao or cheap knock off. I would guess you should try your motor on a cheap $23 Super simple esc. If it works you are cursed with 180's

If it doesn't work your motor fried it. I doubt you rx caused this but it is posible. try it on something else like a servo.

Standard defaulkt timing on the 180 is 15 degrees. O.k. for 4 pole + motors but, a 2 pole will pull lots more amps at this setting.

cybercrxt
05-19-2010, 01:27 PM
Has that motor been overheated? Sure sounds like it. I really cannot stand the Feigao motors. I have owned a couple, and wasn't impressed with the long term durability.

scooterP
05-19-2010, 01:49 PM
I bought the motor used and it didn't appear to have been overheated. I actually had put in new bearings that I had laying around in my toolbox. The old ones weren't worn out, but I thought since I had them I would use them.

I didn't overheat the 8XL motor while I had it. My 9XL motor is the one that Hobby King sells. All of the runs with this setup I had always checked for any excess heat, but never more than warm on the esc or the motor. I'm running 2 cooling pickups for the motor and esc. Both systems independent.

I think the timing was set to 7.5 when I checked it with my program card. On my next one I will go with zero and see how it runs. The 9XL will turn the 640 prop while only generating 93amps according to FeCalc.....

I was using the 180a esc because my setup on 8XL was supposed to be pulling anywhere between 120 and 130 amp. I had also went through a couple of the cheap Flyermate 200a esc's, but the issues I had with them was totally different. One got water to it and fried a chip on the board that recieves the signal for the rx. The second I think could not withstand the amperage and finally just quit working.

I bought this HW esc because I had read good things about it. I can also say that it is one of the smoothest throttling esc's that I have ever used.....and that includes CC esc's that I have used on electric helis and cars.

Brod
05-19-2010, 02:14 PM
Well, I almost hate to admit it, but I have had yet another HW 180A esc self incinerate. It did it in the same fashion as the first one that I had. It wouldn't be so bad if I were running flat out and something happened, but this is happening right after I put the boat in the pond!!!!!:cursing: I also was running this one with a seperate BEC and I made sure to un pin the + lead coming from the esc to the reciever.

I had ran this esc with my 8XL and a 640 prop for at least 15 times before this failure occured. The only thing that I had changed before it occured was the reciever, and using an external BEC....I had been using a Hitec 3ch FM reciever when the first one blew. It caused that reciever to loose the throttle channel, so I went back to one of my old AM recievers until I could order another Hitec 3ch.

What's weird is the first day with the new Hitec, the range was worse than with an AM reciever, and the throttle would pulse when I reached what looked like the range limit.

Went out to the pond the next day, put batteries in and put the boat in the water. When I hit the throttle the motor seemed to cog once or twice then the magic smoke appeared.:confused2:.....and things started to cook.

The only thing I can come up with is either the motor is causing the failure or the reciever has something to do with it. I just don't know at this point. I haven't had the ESC under water or anything. It could have had a few drops on it here and there, but I thought their "waterproofing" would surely keep out a few odd drops......

I sent in pics to HobbyWing and they are replacing the esc for the cost of shipping, but honestly I'm scared to try it again. I think I will put my 9XL in and run with it to rule out the motor, but for some reason I think my reciever might have had something to do with it. Anyone have any ideas on this?

I'm honestly thinking of taking a break from boats after this run of bad luck....or whatever it is. I can go back to flying helis and get out cheaper than this!!!!:help:

I can see were your coming from,i fly helis too and nothing like the problems with these FE boats,
we run mainly gas boats now,after burning 2 180's,both escs took the out the lipos as well.
I am just about finished building a HOR 32" cat with an Etti and Medusa motor,if this burns its goodbuy forever for FE boats for me too.

scooterP
05-19-2010, 02:26 PM
Man I tell ya. I got into boats last summer when a new friend asked me to take a look at his. He figured since I flew planes and helis and dabbled with nitro trucks that I would be able to get his Villian going again. I got hooked by messing with the Villian....went out and bought an SV27.....and the rest...you know the story.
I had taken a break from helis because of aggravation and expense.....but lately the boats........:cursing:

ray schrauwen
05-19-2010, 02:33 PM
Ihave seen the HK feigao copy motors loose their magnet strength after one run.

scooterP
05-19-2010, 11:12 PM
Ihave seen the HK feigao copy motors loose their magnet strength after one run.

I have had that happen when I got a little froggy one day and ran one of my 9xl knock offs on 6s. It ran 61, but only did it from one end of the pond to the other......then no magnet..

scooterP
06-25-2010, 09:16 PM
I am on my third esc now, but with much better luck. I changed out my 8xl to a 9xl that I had and so far though many runs I have no issues at all. I never thought a motor could cause an esc to blow like mine did, but I guess stranger things have happened.
Can anyone tell me what issue a motor could have that would cause the esc to literally blow up like mine did?
Thanks

ray schrauwen
06-25-2010, 09:32 PM
It is key to have the proper magnetic field when under power I believe. If not, then bad things happen. This and/or if the windings have been heated significantly to damage the insulating properties of the wire, possible short circuit? Partial short circuit?

electric
06-25-2010, 10:43 PM
I have fried a motor before. Need someone else to give you the reason, but the result is the motor demag's and then there is this huge amp draw and then poof!

scooterP
06-25-2010, 11:45 PM
All of those reasons stated sound logical to me, the only thing is the motor is not de-maged at all. The rotor is as strong as it ever has been. I don't know how you would tell if there was a short since all of the wires check with connection to the other using a meter......or maybe it shouldn't do that........

sailr
06-26-2010, 07:54 AM
demagging the motor due to overheating will take out the esc because the motor continually demands more amps, more amps, more amps, until POOF!

scooterP
06-26-2010, 06:25 PM
demagging the motor due to overheating will take out the esc because the motor continually demands more amps, more amps, more amps, until POOF!

I understand that, but this motor seems to be taking out esc's and it hasn't been overheated or anything of the sort. It just kills esc's.....well, it killed two. Since I have been running my 9xl no problems at all. I'm scared that if I put the 8xl back in then it will be poof number 3!!!

Jeepers
06-26-2010, 08:07 PM
have you disassembled the 8XL yet? I had one were the magnet cracked in two and pulled massive amps, but it just puffed on of my lipos and and everything else was fine.

scooterP
06-26-2010, 09:27 PM
Yes, I have dissasembled the 8XL and it looks perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, I took the rotor out of it and put it in my 9XL that I ran hot and it de-maged after my 6s run with it several months ago. So my 9XL is using a rotor from the 8XL. I have the 8XL sitting on my desk with the back plate off.....and that's where it has been for a while now.

vasy
06-26-2010, 09:59 PM
Could be just some defect in the motor that you can't see. Some internal wiring fault, just bad wire, maybe just some bad magnets or a combination, you know one built end of shift on Friday in a rush to get out. Seems like it is cheaper to replace a motor then ESC, maybe not worth the risk testing is 9xl is fine.

scooterP
06-26-2010, 10:07 PM
9XL is fine, and I'm not going to risk the 8xl. I think I might go to a 6s setup and maybe a 10XL. Just don't know right now. I just want to get a little more speed out of my 33" Fountain.

Jeepers
06-26-2010, 11:02 PM
so you are using a 540xl? I read back through the thread but I may have missed the size of the motor. if you are using the 540 size motors, imo those motors are just not strong enough to do what you are asking of them especially in that size of hull. the esc may have took the abuse for awhile but the weakest link finally let go, why does the esc go on the first run of the day? no idea......

sailr
06-27-2010, 01:34 AM
I would take out an insurance policy on that 8XL from Waste Management! (throw it in the trash). It will be cheaper than replacing esc's!


I understand that, but this motor seems to be taking out esc's and it hasn't been overheated or anything of the sort. It just kills esc's.....well, it killed two. Since I have been running my 9xl no problems at all. I'm scared that if I put the 8xl back in then it will be poof number 3!!!

Simon.O.
06-27-2010, 01:54 AM
I would take out an insurance policy on that 8XL from Waste Management! (throw it in the trash). It will be cheaper than replacing esc's!

I will agree here. I have had a motor take out a ESC and seem fine, 1 run later the (new) esc fails.
Guess where that motor is now ??

HK motors and E-bays esc's are fine as long as you know what they are and when to bin them.

fwiw I have 3 Feigao S size motors that are near bullet proof. A few HK type XL motors of dubious qualitly and a pile of E-bay outrunners that are mere smoke generators !!
I also have enough alloy heatsinks taken off e-bay type esc's to make it worth a trip to metal salvage yard......nearly :laugh:

scooterP
06-28-2010, 09:35 AM
The 8XL is a Feigao......so I thought that it would not be the issue, but even "good" motors can have issues from time to time I guess. Since it was a Feigao, I hated to throw it away, but I definately will not be using it any longer.....other than a paper weight. I wish I would have bought it new so I could have sent it back in to be checked out. Anyhow, I'm in the market for another 8XL, or maybe a 10XL to run on 6s power.